Turks in the Mongol Horde
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Category: Regional History or Period History
Forum Name: Steppe Nomads and Central Asia
Forum Discription: Nomads such as the Scythians, Huns, Turks & Mongols, and kingdoms of Central Asia
URL: http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=923
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Topic: Turks in the Mongol Horde
Posted By: Guests
Subject: Turks in the Mongol Horde
Date Posted: 25-Oct-2004 at 12:10
Now I know that the Mongol horde had some turkic tribes and people in its armies(and its conquered territories).
But what I want to know is, were there any famous turkic generals or tribes that helped Chingis Khan or his sons/grandsons conquer asia?
Thanks.
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Replies:
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 25-Oct-2004 at 12:13
Oh yeah and if you have pics or links to pics of turks that would be awesome
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Posted By: Chono
Date Posted: 25-Oct-2004 at 13:51
What do you mean by "Mongol Horde"?
The chief of the Onguts helped a lot, and got one of CK's daughters.
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Posted By: ihsan
Date Posted: 26-Oct-2004 at 08:21
Hi Luke, welcome to AE (you might also think of registering at our The Steppes History Forum)
Now I know that the Mongol horde had some turkic tribes and people in its armies(and its conquered territories).
But what I want to know is, were there any famous turkic generals or tribes that helped Chingis Khan or his sons/grandsons conquer asia? |
The Mongol armies had troops from many Turkic peoples such as the Qrghz, Qal, Qpchaq, Trkmen, Qarluq, etc. Apart from them, as Chono said, the gt people helped Chinggis Kha'an to enter Jin territories.
------------- [IMG]http://img50.exs.cx/img50/6148/ger3.jpg">
Qaghan of the Vast Steppes
http://steppes.proboards23.com - Steppes History Forum
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Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 26-Oct-2004 at 10:47
Recommend any books or sites where I can learn more about these tribes, or clans? < name=bessBar_text>>
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Posted By: Kubrat
Date Posted: 26-Oct-2004 at 17:07
The Mongol armies had troops from many Turkic peoples such as the Qrghz, Qal, Qpchaq, Trkmen, Qarluq, etc. Apart from them, as Chono said, the gt people helped Chinggis Kha'an to enter Jin territories. |
Ok.. it's official... Every couple of weeks you make the spelling of the tribes' names more and more difficult .
------------- Hell is empty and all the devils are here.
-William Shakespeare
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Posted By: Akskl
Date Posted: 07-Nov-2004 at 21:58
Hi, everybody!
Ketbuqa was Naiman, Muqali was Jalair. Naimans and Jalairs always were
Turkic speaking tribes (read Paul Ratchnevsky "Genghis Khan - His Life
and Legacy", Rene Grousset "Empire of the Steppes", etc.), and are
parts of Kazakhs.
Read about Turkic tribes in China in 13-14th centuries:
http://www.kyrgyz.ru/forum/index.php?showtopic=263
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Posted By: Chono
Date Posted: 08-Nov-2004 at 07:11
Naimans and jalairs have never been turkic, except the ones who went west to establish the Golden Horde.
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Posted By: Akskl
Date Posted: 08-Nov-2004 at 21:37
Please read this page and the following:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/0631189491/ref=sib_dp_pt/1 02-7255325-0723365#reader-page
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Posted By: Akskl
Date Posted: 08-Nov-2004 at 21:40
Link doesn't work. Try this one - skip first few pages with Contents Illustrations and read the text, please:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/0631189491/ref=sib_dp_pt/1 02-7255325-0723365#reader-link
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Posted By: Akskl
Date Posted: 08-Nov-2004 at 21:45
If this link doesn't work too - go to www.amazon com and enter
"Ratchnevsky" into "Search". You can read few first pages where
Professor Paul Ratchnevsky writes that the Naimans, Kereits, Jalairs
were TURKIC SPEAKING TRIBES no matter what Chono thinks.
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Posted By: babyblue
Date Posted: 09-Nov-2004 at 01:51
welcome Akskl. ... ..
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Posted By: Gubook Janggoon
Date Posted: 09-Nov-2004 at 18:00
Hehe babyblue so friendly....
BTW Hi from me too!
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Posted By: Chono
Date Posted: 10-Nov-2004 at 05:42
Obviously, if Ratschnevsky supposedly said that that must be true. Babyblue, you're funny
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Posted By: Akskl
Date Posted: 10-Nov-2004 at 20:49
R.P.Lister "Genghis Khan" Cooper Square Press, 2000 (first published in New York in 1969) p.21, 10-th line from beneath: "...There were other steppe peoples too, the Huns of long ago, and the Turkish peoples, such as the Naimans and the Uighurs..."
Marco Polo, his father and uncle spoke with Emperor Kublai Khan in Turki language:
http://www.silk-road.com/artl/marcopolo.shtml - http://www.silk-road.com/artl/marcopolo.shtml
"...The Great Khan, Mangu's brother, Kublai, was indeed hospitable. He had set up his court at Beijing, which was not a Mongol encampment but an impressive city built by Kublai as his new capital after the Mongols took over China in 1264 and established Yuan dynasty (1264-1368). Kublai asked them all about their part of the world, the Pope and the Roman church. Niccolo and Matteo, who spoke Turkic dialects perfectly, answered truthfully and clearly. The Polo brothers were well received in the Great Khan's capital. One year later, the Great Khan sent them on their way with a letter in Turki addressed to Pope Clement IV asking the Pope to send him 100 learned men to teach his people about Christianity and Western science. He also asked Pope to procure oil from the lamp at the Holy Sepulchre in Jerusalem..."
http://www.uscolo.edu/history/seminar/sauma.htm - http://www.uscolo.edu/history/seminar/sauma.htm
YAHBH-ALLAHA ELECTED PATRIARCH
"...The reason for his election was this: The kings who held the steering poles of the government of the whole world were MUGLAYE (Mongols), and there was no man except MAR YAHBH-ALLAHA who was acquainted with their manners and customs, and their policy of government, and their language..."
MAR YAHBH-ALLAHA was Ongut Turk
http://www.uglychinese.org/mongolian.htm - http://www.uglychinese.org/mongolian.htm
"... The truth, however, is that the word 'Mongols' was adopted and sanctified by Khubilai, much later than the Mongols knew about this name. Before this name change, the Mongols called themselves 'Tartars', in fact..."
"...Chinese sources tried to trace the origin of the word 'Mongol', and it had located a tribe called 'Mengwu', said to be a Shiwei tribe of the Tang Period prior to AD 907. This name would later become Moghul in Turkic and Mughal in Persian..."
"...Though the Naimans are said to be of Turkic origin...""
Keraits East of the Naimans, from the Orkhon River in the west to the Onon and Kerulen rivers, was the new home of the Keraits. This is a group of people that had been disputed by Tao Zongyi (T'ao Tsung-i 1316- ?) to be Mongols, but Rashid ad-Din placed them in a subgroup with the Naimans, Uygurs, Kirghiz, Kipchaks and other Turkic peoples while acknowledging the resemblances between the Keraits and the Mongols. Still one more Chinese, Tu Ji, in his "History of the Mongols" (Mengwuer Shiji), assumed that the Keraits were Turkic and originated from Turkic Kangli and Ghuzz and their language was Turkic. It was also said that an important Kirghiz tribe bears the name of Kirai, which is equivalent to Kerait. ... ...Yisugei had helped Kerait chieftan, Toghrul, twice. Toghrul was resented by his tribesmen for killing his brothers. When Toghrul was defeated by his uncle and fled with few hundreds of horsemen, Yisugei would come to his aid and drive Toghrul's uncle to Tanguts' Western Xia territory. Later, Toghrul's brother rebelled as well, and Toghrul had to flee southwestward to the three statelets of 'Hexi', 'Huihu' and 'Huihui' (Uygur, Qiangic and Tibetan territories) for asylum. Thereafter, Toghrul sought asylum with the Kara Khitans. When Toghrul escaped back to Mongolia, Timuchin would give him a good reception and treat Toghrul as 'father'. Timuchin later defeated the Merkits and gave the captured people to Toghrul. Toghrul hence gained strength. Toghrul and Timuchin cooperated few times in fighting the Naimans thereafter. The importance of Keraits would lie in the fact that Timuchin sought the protection under Toghrul ...
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Posted By: Akskl
Date Posted: 10-Nov-2004 at 23:09
DEBATING GENGHIS KHAN
Controversy over the ethnic origin of the great commander
Erbol ZHUMAGULOV
http://www.inauka.ru/english/article36435.html - http://www.inauka.ru/english/article36435.html
http://www.inauka.ru/english/article36435.html/forum/ - http://www.inauka.ru/english/article36435.html/forum/
Diggers Find Genghis Khan's Mausoleum
Genghis Khan, who was a Mongol or Kazakh, conquered most of Asia and Eastern Europe in the early 13th century.
http://www.wixt.com/entertainment/wierd_news/story.aspx?content_id=AE3DE2EF-FDE6-4C65-AE99-BB3A57975C26 - http://www.wixt.com/entertainment/wierd_news/story.aspx?cont ent_id=AE3DE2EF-FDE6-4C65-AE99-BB3A57975C26
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Posted By: Chono
Date Posted: 11-Nov-2004 at 09:27
Man, you've been proved wrong in numerous forums, I won't even begin discussing this. The question is not if CK was mongol or not, it's if you're a kipchak-mongol mixture, a kipchak-sart mixture or a kipchak-russian mixture.
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Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 16-Nov-2004 at 14:44
Kazakhs (Turkic nation,moslems, qazaq) consist
of from Chenggishanits (Jushids, Chagataids), kiats (kiat-kuralas,
kiat-chanchiut), from turkic tribes, which name is nirun*:
duhlat, suhan, wusun [wisut], qataghan [katakin] and etc., beside which
exist and before is remembered legends and folk legends that own of the
origin rise from clean womb of Alan-Goa; and turkic-mongolian tribes,
named darlekin: kungirat, argin [darlekin tribes konfederation from Ergune-kun], as well as kerait, naiman, kipshak, jalair, kangly, alshyn [tatar - alshyn].
Today,s mongols from Mongolia don't have any Chenggishanits, niruns and kiats. That is to say "mongols without mongol" and " Toys mongols with pygmean horses"
Man, you've been proved wrong in numerous
forums, I won't even begin discussing this. The question is not if CK
was mongol or not, it's if you're a kipchak-mongol mixture, a
kipchak-sart mixture or a kipchak-russian mixture. |
If we are a kipchak- sart or russian mixture, then you are a bandy-legged Chinese
*Rashid ad-Din. Jami' at-tawarikh (1307), t.1, books 1and 2, M-L. 1952. (in russian)
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Posted By: ihsan
Date Posted: 06-Dec-2004 at 13:31
The Jalairs were a Mongol clan, that is so clear. Why debate it and claim they were Turkic? That is so pointless.
I hate nationalism
------------- [IMG]http://img50.exs.cx/img50/6148/ger3.jpg">
Qaghan of the Vast Steppes
http://steppes.proboards23.com - Steppes History Forum
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Posted By: mongke
Date Posted: 06-Dec-2004 at 21:37
As far as I am concerned Chingghis Khan was a mongol. Turks assimilated mongols in the Golden Horde and in the Chagatai Khanate. It does seem a little bit like a mongol-turk partnership.
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Posted By: Chono
Date Posted: 07-Dec-2004 at 06:08
Ahh the usual crap again. So you're the russian-kipchak kind of mixture huh? It is funny to see how different kinds of mixture produces different kinds of opinions with you kazakhs Do you know at all what derlegen means in mongolian? Man, it's pitiful, walking around with a heritage like that.
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Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 07-Dec-2004 at 11:01
85 % of Kazakhs
was formed from clean mongol tribes. Not Mongols was kangly (turkic), kypshaks
(turkic) and koja (arabs - seids). Rashid-ad-din wrote that each Mongol knows
own tribes. Each Kazakh also knows own tribes.
Now we shall
actually analyze mongol tribes with names are nirun:
Today's Kazakh
tribes - kiat [kiat-chanchiut, kiat- kuralas], duhlat, suhan, wusun [wisut],
qataghan [katakin]
Today's Uzbek
tribes - barlas, qataghan, mangyt, kiat
Today's Noghay
tribes - mangyt, barin
Turkic osmanli,
Turkic Toba, Turkis - Mongols - all of turkic clans.
All are turkic!
Bandy-legged Chono on a donkey horse, halhases are not mongols. You are sian-bi.
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Posted By: blitz
Date Posted: 07-Dec-2004 at 13:27
BekD,
I don't think that kazakhs are mongols but turks.
------------- Road to wisdom: err, err and err. But less, less and less!
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Posted By: Chono
Date Posted: 09-Dec-2004 at 05:25
Hehe, well it's pitiful that you have to pour out your insecurities on an online forum. But you should embrace what you are, a kipchak-russian mixture. Otherwise, you won't be taken serious by anyone.
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Posted By: ihsan
Date Posted: 09-Dec-2004 at 16:31
BekD, those Mongol clans you listed as Kazaks have indeed become Turkified, they were originially Mongols.
------------- [IMG]http://img50.exs.cx/img50/6148/ger3.jpg">
Qaghan of the Vast Steppes
http://steppes.proboards23.com - Steppes History Forum
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Posted By: Chono
Date Posted: 10-Dec-2004 at 06:04
The kazakh "Tore" clan should be all khiyad borjigin. It would be interesting to see a listing of their actual family names, if such a list exists.
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Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 19-Dec-2004 at 15:14
Hello people,
that's my first post, nice to meet you everybody.
I just want to say it would be most effective if group of scientists could actually decide on who were who by DNA, genes.
It could be accomplished today, and give us perhaps intersting facts. I would certainly do that.
i'm sure there would be a great mixture of mongol and turcik tribes. u
cannot deny commander that CK had women from different tribes and
origins of nomads. By the way how u say Khan, bay, bek in Mongol
language ?
Instead mongol vs kazakh, i'm interested in Kazaks vs Scythians, even
some say there were diffrent people. I honestly doubt it, because
kazakhs still have similar traditions and even face features like
blue, green eyes, or instead of asian an evropean face features. And
Commander it's certainly not russians, the mixed kids of russians and
kazakhs/mongols/kirgiz are different from kazakhs with european
features.
My grand father on mom side is tore.
bye
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Posted By: Mustafa
Date Posted: 21-Dec-2004 at 02:24
Hello Bektemir,
Back then it would not have mattered genetically who was turk or who was mongol. If the turkic and mongol tribes originally came from Mongolia, they were all the same genetically with just a different language (which is not all that much different if one thinks about it). Later on BOTH the original mongols and the original turks mixed with other people and then ALL of those mixed mogols outside mongolia became turkicized (the mixed turks were already turkic). So, in my opinion the mongols and the turks were genetically the same people. Timur was a turkicized mongol, but he might as well have been a mongolized turk...genetically it would not have made any difference.
People nowadays focus too much on the mixed population of Turkey in trying to imagine what the "typical turk" historically looked like. The people of turkey are probably the farthest away from the ancient turkic look as any turkic people can be.
Mustafa
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Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 25-Dec-2004 at 21:24
http://www.journals.uchicago.edu/AJHG/journal/issues/v63n6/970820/970820.web.pdf - http://www.journals.uchicago.edu/AJHG/journal/issues/v63n6/9 70820/970820.web.pdf
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Posted By: Mustafa
Date Posted: 25-Dec-2004 at 22:43
Thanks "Justmongol",
That article just gives more support to what I have said all along.
Mustafa
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Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 26-Dec-2004 at 02:46
Originally posted by Mustafa
...If the turkic and mongol tribes originally came from Mongolia, they were all the same genetically with just a different language (which is not all that much different if one thinks about it). Later on BOTH the original mongols and the original turks mixed with other people and then ALL of those mixed mogols outside mongolia became turkicized (the mixed turks were already turkic). So, in my opinion the mongols and the turks were genetically the same people. Timur was a turkicized mongol, but he might as well have been a mongolized turk...genetically it would not have made any difference.
Mustafa |
Merhaba, Mustafa!
Could you please back up your words with sources? Is there any proof that turks and mongols were genetically the same?
The science does not support your opinion.
Genes are formed by X (female) and Y (male) chromosomes. So, X chromosome inherited from mothers and Y chromosome from fathers.
1. X-chromosome: The above mentioned research was done on mtDNA sequence (female X chromosome) and concluded that between 33.2% and 35.4% of the individuals in their Central Asian samples bore a sequence belonging to a European lineage (kyrgyz, kazakh and uigurs). Mongols are stated to be the next closest to the group.
2. Y-chromosome: It's inherited only from a father to a son. The differences among kyrgyzs, kazakhs, uigurs and mongols are extremely big.
Below is the graphical layout:
http://www.journals.uchicago.edu/AJHG/journal/issues/v 71n3/0 23927/023927.web.pdf
Mongoloid gene sequence: Hg10 (orange color) - mongols Hg36 (brown color) - turkics
Europoid gene sequence: Hg1 (blue color) Hg3 (dark blue color)
For example, kyrgyz have mostly europoid sequences (Hg1, Hg3...). To be exact, 76% of overall Y-chromosome. So, our forefathers were not mongoloids. As you can see from the graphical map, tajiks (persians) are the closest people to kyrgyz (turkic) genewise.
Conclusion: Turks and Mongols were not genetically the same. It is possible that turkic men got intermarried with mongol females since turkic people are very close to mongols on maternal (X-chromosome) side.
http://hpgl.stanford.edu/publications/PNAS_2001_v98_p10244.pdf - http://hpgl.stanford.edu/publications/PNAS_2001_v98_p10244.p df http://www.journals.uchicago.edu/AJHG/journal/issues/v71n3/023927/023927.web.pdf - http://www.journals.uchicago.edu/AJHG/journal/issues/v71n3/0 23927/023927.web.pdf http://hgm2002.hgu.mrc.ac.uk/Abstracts/Publish/WorkshopPosters/WorkshopPoster04/hgm0179.htm - http://hgm2002.hgu.mrc.ac.uk/Abstracts/Publish/WorkshopPoste rs/WorkshopPoster04/hgm0179.htm http://hpgl.stanford.edu/publications/AHG_1996_v60_p35-49.pdf - http://hpgl.stanford.edu/publications/AHG_1996_v60_p35-49.pd f http://egweb.bcgsc.ca/journal_club/2003_2004/pdfs/short_report_031006_mongol_Y_chrom.pdf - http://egweb.bcgsc.ca/journal_club/2003_2004/pdfs/short_repo rt_031006_mongol_Y_chrom.pdf http://web.unife.it/progetti/genetica/Giorgio/PDFfiles/ajpa2001.pdf - http://web.unife.it/progetti/genetica/Giorgio/PDFfiles/ajpa2 001.pdf http://www.historicalgenetics.com/articles.html - http://www.historicalgenetics.com/articles.html
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Posted By: Turk
Date Posted: 26-Dec-2004 at 08:53
Originally posted by Mustafa
Later on BOTH the original mongols and the original turks mixed with other people and then ALL of those mixed mogols outside mongolia became turkicized (the mixed turks were already turkic). So, in my opinion the mongols and the turks were genetically the same people. Timur was a turkicized mongol, but he might as well have been a mongolized turk...genetically it would not have made any difference. |
This makes no sense whatsoever. Your idea that everybody from the same places have the exact same genetics, is even less coherent.
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Posted By: Mustafa
Date Posted: 26-Dec-2004 at 11:39
Originally posted by Elteber
Merhaba, Mustafa!
Could you please back up your words with sources? Is there any proof that turks and mongols were genetically the same?
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Hello Elteber!
You have left out one logical step in your analysis. You have only analyzed the *mixed* population of today to conclude that Turkic people are different from Mongols genetically. The current population has been mixing along the silk road for many generations so it is natural that you will see a lot of mixed genes including a high percentange of caucasian genes. That is not surprising at all.
However, the real question is: "Where did the original Turks come from and what was their genetic composition?" We already know pretty certainly the first part of this question. Turks came to central asia from northeastern asia (Mongolia, Southern Siberia). It makes no sense that the Turks were already mixed when they arrived in central asia. The population of Mongolia and southern siberia has been "asian" looking for millenia and even today they are of the "asian" phenotype and genotype. Of course there are genetic differences among asians, but I dare somone to find genetic correlations between the inhabitants of the original motherland of the turks and europeans. So, why should the Turks have been any different from everyone else living in that area at that time, considering there was no silk road to bring foreign influence to those regions? Keep in mind that this was before the altaic people (Turks, Mongols) spread westward and started mixing with western people.
So, why do I think Mongols are the closest to the *original Turks* and were probably the same people? Again, there is an historical answer. Mongols, just like Turks developed in Mongolia and southern siberia and were living there concurrently with the Turks. If you follow back the timeline long enough, you will probably find that the turks and mongols did branch of from a common group of people. I would be very surprised if that common "ancestor group" was already mixed up and had european genes.
So, do you understand where I am coming from? If we do not consider history at all and JUST look at genetic composition of mixed populations then we would come to the conclusion that the British are the ancestors of the Turks in Turkey. Genetically, that might make sense but culturally that is total nonsense, since it does not answer the question about the "original Turks" which brought the Turkic culture with them.
Even the study adressed above infers that the Turks brought the asian part of the gene pool of central asia with them from eastern asia (Mongolia, Siberia etc). And then they started mixing there. There weren't any chinese and mongols coming and mixing with any imaginary caucasian Turks. The Turks were already asian and brought their genes with them.
Take care,
Mustafa
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Posted By: Mustafa
Date Posted: 26-Dec-2004 at 11:45
Originally posted by Turk
This makes no sense whatsoever. |
--Why does it not surprise me that things don't make sense to *YOU*? Haha..
Your idea that everybody from the same places have the exact same genetics, is even less coherent. |
--Nobody has the *exact* same genetics, even among the same people. Europeans are not all the same and neither are Germans or French among each other. But, they share more commonalities with each other to be considered members of the same group. The same applies to Mongols, Chinese and the few Turks left that have not mixed with anyone (and of course the original turkic population that came from Mongolia and Siberia). You need to read more carefully my friend.
Mustafa
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Posted By: Chono
Date Posted: 27-Dec-2004 at 09:04
Weird, if turkics are a mixture of caucasoid men and mongoloid women, then what happened to the original mongoloid men and caucasoid women? Maybe ugrs and finns are their "result"?
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Posted By: Yungsiyebu_Uriankhai
Date Posted: 31-Dec-2004 at 00:02
Mongol, Naiman, Keleit, Tatar, Ongud, Khitad were the largest tribes in the Mongolian steppe before Chinggis Khaan unified them as a nation. Usually, Naiman, Keleit and Ongud were considered as Turkic-speaking groups, while Tatar, Khitad and Mongol itself were considered as Mongolian-speaking groups. all of these tribes, regardless their origins, are the direct ancestors of today's Mongolians. Why was the nation's name of the Mongolians called "Mongolia" but not Naiman, Keleit etc? it's just because that it's the leader of Mongol tribe unified all tribes as a nation but not other tribes' leaders.
I don't understand what luke's question exactly means, if you mean how many Naiman, Keleit or Ongud generals severed in Mongol army? I think it's perhaps half of Mongolia's gerenals came from those tribes. but if you ask if there're some turkic generals from turkistan(central asia, not Mongolia, I mean) severed in Mongolia, I can give some message about them:
The most famous general from Turkistan or other territories outside Mongolia were Tutuha and his descendants such as Yan Timur whose ancestors were ever the royalty of Kipchak tribe in South russian steppe. Tutuha and his Kipchak troop play a very important role in Mongolia during Khubilai Khan defeated his brother Aribuga and other Mongol nobles, which gave Tutuha a chance to cellect his people to form a powerful tribe "Yungsiyebu" later in Mongolia. Allied with the Oghuz-originated Kharchin and the Alan-originated Asud, the Kipchaks comprised the great Yungsiyebu tumen of eastern Mongolia after Dayan khan(the successor of Khubilai Khan) reunified Mongolia. it's necessary to mention that Asud's tribe leader Alutai Taysi was ever the actual leader of eastern Mongolians, but he was eventually defeated by the Oirad or the western Mongolian's leader Esen Taysi and his people lost their power and fled to the west where they eventually was absorded by Yungsiyebu tribe, and, the Kharchin's leader Bolu taysi who was the succesor of Esen Taysi, continued to maintain the oirad's power in Mongolia.
Yungsiyebu tumen was defeated by Ligdan Khan(the last Mongol great Khan) of Chahar tumen during Manchu's conquest on Mongolia, some of its people was absorded by Chahar and Tumed tumen and some fled to the east where they absorded Duyan Uriankhai to form a new tribe named Kharchin.
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Posted By: Chono
Date Posted: 31-Dec-2004 at 08:01
What are you talking about? There isn't any valid reason to think naimans and kereits were of turkic origin. Since when is Yunsheebu kipchak originated? Kharchin is oghuz? Your sources please.
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Posted By: Yungsiyebu_Uriankhai
Date Posted: 01-Jan-2005 at 00:01
Noboby know exactly which language those ancient tribes of Mongolia steppe speak except Chinggis Khaan's Mongol tribe itself because there were less vilad evidence leave today. But before Chinggis Khaan and his Mongol tribe rise to power, the ruling groups of Mongolia steppe were Tujue, then Uighur and Kyrgyz whose language were Turkic(the Proto_Mongolian speaking Khitans defeated Kyrgyz, but they didn't imgrated to all Mongolia steppe, most of them stay in today's southeastern Inner Mongolia and South Manchuria or imgrated to China after they established a conquered dynasty in Northern China) so it's reasonable to consider that there were at least half of the tribes in Mongolia were Turkic-speaking groups at that time. of course, it's not important at all that which languages those ancient tribes speak, we only know these tribes weren't dispeared but adapted the common national name of Mongolia and became the ancestors of today's Mongolia.
Many peolpe focus their attention on which tribes were Turkic or Mongolian speaking groups when they view Mongolia history, but it never be an important aspect to influence the history in reality. Chinggis Khaan didn't treat Uighurs or Ongud as enemies because they speak Turkic, and he didn't treat Tatars friendly after he conquered them because they also speak Mongolian(most probably).
Today's Mongolians tend to neglect their turkic-originated ancestors and seem to view those ancient empires such as Tujue Khanate, Uighur Khanate, Kyrgyz Khanate as foreign dynasty in Mongolia, it's totally wrong. There were actually many tribes leave their homeland Mongolia to the west or the south, but it's impossible that all of them leave together when they lost their power in Mongolia, for example, after north Xiong-nu were defeated by Sian-bei, most of its people was absorded by Sian-bei but not all of them imgrated to the west. it's similar to the following history of Mongolia that the descendants of former empires became the peolpe of new empires. it never be a thing of displacing or being displaced but a thing of conquering or being conquered. History of Xiong-nu empire, Sian-bei empire, Ruran empire, Tujue Khanate, Uighur Khanate, etc, all were part of Mongolia history.
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Posted By: Yungsiyebu_Uriankhai
Date Posted: 01-Jan-2005 at 00:33
Yungsiyebu tumen comprised three sub-tribes: Yungsiyebu itself, Kharchin and Asud. Yungsiyebu's ancestors came from Kiphack steppe followed their leader after Batu Khan conquered them, and the original Kharchin was one of sub-tribes of Ughoz turks, they were conquered by Chinggis Khaan in the Khorosane area of today's Iran, Afghanistan or Turkmenstan and followed him back to Mongolia. Since Khubilai Khan set Kipchak guarding troops in western Mongolia, there were several guarding troops of Kharchin, Asud, Kangli and others followed to be set there by Yuan government. Those tribes allied with another western Mongolian tribes such as Choros(known as Dzungar later),Torguud, etc to form the Oirad tribal alliance untill Dayan Khan conquered them and formed the Yungsiyebu Tumen of eastern Mongolia's right wing(Kangli became a tribe of Ordos tumen). All what i read about Yungsiyebu tumen's origin like it, I don't know if there're other theories about this tribe.
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Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 01-Jan-2005 at 04:44
Posted By: blitz
Date Posted: 06-Jan-2005 at 09:48
Originally posted by Luke
Now I know that the Mongol horde had some turkic tribes and people in its armies(and its conquered territories).
But what I want to know is, were there any famous turkic generals or tribes that helped Chingis Khan or his sons/grandsons conquer asia?
Thanks. |
I think there were no famous turkic generals or something like that who helped mongols so well. In my opinion mongols recruited many men from conquered countries, that is why there were among mongol troops some turks. Armenians, georgians were among mongols of Hulegu Khan etc.
I think, so this way after long years new etnicities like kazakh and uzbek came into being(16th century). In my opinion kazakhs and uzbeks played no role in the world history but kirgizs little bit.
------------- Road to wisdom: err, err and err. But less, less and less!
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Posted By: Mustafa
Date Posted: 06-Jan-2005 at 15:51
Originally posted by blitz
I think there were no famous turkic generals or something like that who helped mongols so well. In my opinion mongols recruited many men from conquered countries, that is why there were among mongol troops some turks. Armenians, georgians were among mongols of Hulegu Khan etc. |
As always, you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. Do you ever read *anything* published about the Mongols and especially about Jinghis Khan? When he first united his core group of tribes in Mongolia *at least* half of them were turkic already. But ,of course, to know this one has to be literate and be able to read and understand relevant publications instead of pulling things out of your ass like you do. "Your opinion" is unfortunately not scientific enough and ,considering your level of intellect you have displayed here, totally useless (especially since your opinion is not grounded in any facts).
I think, so this way after long years new etnicities like kazakh and uzbek came into being(16th century). In my opinion kazakhs and uzbeks played no role in the world history but kirgizs little bit. |
--Again, your "opinion" is worthless. Go read up on some Mongol and Turkic history and maybe you will find out some good, usable information finally instead of speculating.
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Posted By: blitz
Date Posted: 07-Jan-2005 at 06:32
Mr Science, what is wrong with "The kazakhs und uzbeks came into being in 16th century"? And what is wrong with "They played no role in world history" and "Mongols recruited troops from occupied countries like Armenia, Georgia"?
How can you assert that at least the half of mongols were turks? Where is such fact?
------------- Road to wisdom: err, err and err. But less, less and less!
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Posted By: ihsan
Date Posted: 09-Jan-2005 at 13:15
I agree with blitz.
Mustafa, calm down!
------------- [IMG]http://img50.exs.cx/img50/6148/ger3.jpg">
Qaghan of the Vast Steppes
http://steppes.proboards23.com - Steppes History Forum
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Posted By: Akskl
Date Posted: 25-Nov-2005 at 14:47
This is a real Khalkha-Mongolian blatant chauvinism.
It seems that Blitz did not touch in his life a single non-Khalkha-Mongolian book about the subject.
Why the Macedonian Slavs do not claim that they are descendants of Alexander the Great?
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Posted By: Attila2
Date Posted: 26-Nov-2005 at 11:03
well,I am asking you this blitz...There were a hell load of turkic tribes around mongolia about 11-12 th centuries...how come they were not mongolian (regionally) and didnt help Genghis Khan??
and saying things like "Kazakhs and Uzbeks are blah blah but Kyrgyz are blah" is too silly for me,knowing they are all Turkic...
And dont forget that Osman Batur(a Kazakh) was a legendary revolutionist/rebel against the Soviet Russia and China
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Posted By: gok_toruk
Date Posted: 27-Nov-2005 at 09:29
Well, we know that Mongols themselves were in Minority. It was Chengiz Khan's idea to gather Turks & Mongols under a united flag. We've all heard about his sayings to excite Turks to join Mongolian horde. Now, to name Turkic general among Mongols, the truth is that... Turks didn't reach top positions in Mongol Cavalry. Anyhow, Mongols were too less in number that they were not able to defeat their neighbors, by themselves alone.
------------- Sajaja bramani totari ta, raitata raitata, radu ridu raitata, rota.
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Posted By: gok_toruk
Date Posted: 27-Nov-2005 at 09:34
Well, the name 'Ozbek' or 'Qazaq' came to existance in almost 500 years ago; right. But Kiptchaks were one of the oldest and biggest tribes among Turks & Mongols. Today Kiptchaks live under the names of Uzbek or Qazaq. Or look at Jalayer tribe; Mongolians who were in Chengiz Khan's horde. That's it.
------------- Sajaja bramani totari ta, raitata raitata, radu ridu raitata, rota.
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Posted By: Akskl
Date Posted: 27-Nov-2005 at 11:57
The Jalairs (or Jelairs) were Turkic speaking tribe and today are also
a part of modern Kazakhs (see www.elim.kz - in Uly Juz - or Great
horde).
Genghis Khan himself was Turkic speaking guy. He was vassal of the
Kereit Toghryl Khan. What language did they speak with each other? Of
course using language of sovereign - not of vassal - i.e. Turkic
one.
Most probably that Genghis Khan "Mongols" were the same "Mongols", like
say, Alban tribe of modern Kazakhs are Albanians, and
Cherkesh tribe are Circassians. Genghis Khans' mother and first wife were Qongyrats (see www.elim.kz).
Just because Turkic nomads united into new POLITICAL union - changed
their name to Kazakhs - does not mean previous unions, or tribes with
previous names stopped to exist. For example, Greeks
used to call themselves as Ellins, Spartans, Athenians,
etc. and later Byzantines, and now Greeks, but nobody says
that thay are separate and totally not related peoples. Of
course, many parallels between nomadic and settled peoples very
often don't work.
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Posted By: gok_toruk
Date Posted: 29-Nov-2005 at 11:43
Nice piece of writing... thanks buddy. Now the question is: Jalairs were Turkic speaking? Well, all documents after Kutluk Kakan propose that Jalairs spoke Mongolian; rather than Turkic. And we know that Chengiz Khan's mother spoke a Turkic dialect... not specified anywhere... just some guesses. But Chengiz Khan only knew how to speak Mongolian; not even Turkic.
Now, it might be my fault to misunderstand the situation. If that smiley means you're joking, so, I'm wrong . Would you please answer these questions?
------------- Sajaja bramani totari ta, raitata raitata, radu ridu raitata, rota.
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Posted By: gok_toruk
Date Posted: 29-Nov-2005 at 11:46
Most Mongols who left their mother land, Mongolian Steppes, don't speak Mongolian these days... Mongols among Kyrkizes, Turkmens, Uzbeks and Kazaks speak Turkic for living. Mongols who chosed Iran to stay, speak Iranian. In most cases, they FORGOT their mother tongue. Now, there might be some exceptions like Mongols of China, Japan or Korea. But we're talking about majority.
------------- Sajaja bramani totari ta, raitata raitata, radu ridu raitata, rota.
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Posted By: Kurultai
Date Posted: 27-Dec-2005 at 06:35
CK was Kiyat, who was elected by Kiyats, Merkits, Naimans and others on
Kurulai as CK which is rather a title. His real name is Temirshin which
is "blacksmith". All this tribes are turkic, populated the territory of
current mongolia and left for Central Asia after CK became a CK. Upon
their leave the free lands of current Mongolia were entered by current,
so-called "mongolian" tribes.
All turkic tribes consider Altai mountains their motherland and where their all started and moved to steppes of Central Asia.
IF CK was a mongol how come his name was Temirshin?
There's no such word in any mongol tribe, isn't it? If he was named
Temirshin then he was a turkic by birth and not by a later assimilation
or such with turkic tribes. Also, only turkic tribes could call its
leader a KHAN and not any
mongol, right? If there were mongols as leaders of all tribes of
mongolia then why would they call him Chingis KHAN and not a title
usually given by mongols to its leaders? Temirshin, known by its
title CK was from a turkic tribe who moved turkic tribes to Central
Asia.
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Posted By: Temujin
Date Posted: 27-Dec-2005 at 17:05
well, first of all, Temujin was named after a captured Tatar, and second Khan WAS the title used by Mongols...
-------------
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Posted By: Kurultai
Date Posted: 27-Dec-2005 at 21:52
First of all, it's not "Temujin" but "Temirshin", as there's no "Temujin" in Tatar language.
CK's father, Esukei was from turkic Kiyats, his mother Oyan was from turkic konyrat, the tribes who still live in the current Central Asia.
What is kontaishy title? Is this the title used by mongol tribes who
organized Jungaria? They never gave title "Khan" to their leaders, only
turkic tribes did.
There is a couple of turkic tribes who still lives in Mongolia and who
are still turkic; they were not lost in assimilation with mongols
through the centuries. They are not mongols and are not buddhist like
other mongol tribes.
CK divided his land among four sons, Zhoshy, Kublai, Shagatai and Tole.
Zhozhy was khan of current Central Asia and westwards. He died and his
son Batyi khan continued on and ruled Central Asia, Russia (or Rus')
and parts of Europe. All of this names, their wifes names, their sons
and so on are turkic names and some even now are used widely.
CK was a turkic and led turkic tribes to Central Asia, and mongols are
cousins of turkic but were never part of his military campaigns of
those times. Current mongol tribes living in Mongolia are all buddhist
and I don't think any of these tribes took any part in CK wars. They
just happen to populate the lands which turkics left on their journey
to Central Asia.
Don't mean to offend anyone especially cousins from Mongolia. Just wanted to voice the real background on the turkic tribes.
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Posted By: tadamson
Date Posted: 27-Dec-2005 at 22:12
Originally posted by Kurultai
First of all, it's not "Temujin" but "Temirshin", as there's no "Temujin" in Tatar language.
CK's father, Esukei was from turkic Kiyats, his mother Oyan was from turkic konyrat, the tribes who still live in the current Central Asia.
What is kontaishy title? Is this the title used by mongol tribes who
organized Jungaria? They never gave title "Khan" to their leaders, only
turkic tribes did.
There is a couple of turkic tribes who still lives in Mongolia and who
are still turkic; they were not lost in assimilation with mongols
through the centuries. They are not mongols and are not buddhist like
other mongol tribes.
CK divided his land among four sons, Zhoshy, Kublai, Shagatai and Tole.
Zhozhy was khan of current Central Asia and westwards. He died and his
son Batyi khan continued on and ruled Central Asia, Russia (or Rus')
and parts of Europe. All of this names, their wifes names, their sons
and so on are turkic names and some even now are used widely.
CK was a turkic and led turkic tribes to Central Asia, and mongols are
cousins of turkic but were never part of his military campaigns of
those times. Current mongol tribes living in Mongolia are all buddhist
and I don't think any of these tribes took any part in CK wars. They
just happen to populate the lands which turkics left on their journey
to Central Asia.
Don't mean to offend anyone especially cousins from Mongolia. Just wanted to voice the real background on the turkic tribes.
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You are deliberately skewing the known information. eg all the manes you have are turkised forms of the real names.
This has nothing to do with any modern differences between modern 'Turks' and 'Mongols'.
We have sources, written in Mongol that describe the life of Temuljin
who formed the Mongol Empire. We have Persian and Chinese sources
that corroberate this and the names.
You have to stop this urge to over emphasise the 'Turkish' in
everything stepp related (as per several threads on this forum) it's
simply wrong and gives the (presumably incorrect) impresion of over
zealous nationalisim.
------------- rgds.
Tom..
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Posted By: Kurultai
Date Posted: 28-Dec-2005 at 00:04
Tom,
don't mean to be rude, but I don't "have to" do anything about over
emphasizing the turkic tribes (note there's a difference between
"Turkish" you use and "TURKIC" I refer to). If you are really unaware
of the difference between the two, I doubt your understanding on
anything turkic, turkish and mongol.
Anyway, "Temujin" was first used by chinese who don't have letter "R"
in their language and therefore in their interpretation the REAL TEMIRSHIN became Temujin, picked by all others and the mongols and used since.
All the sources you refer to are real and present but were recorded
years after CK moved the turkic tribes from the current Mongolia to
Central Asia. Some were recorded from the mongolian tribes who were
populating the land left by the turkics. I doubt those mongol tribes
were able to provide any good and reliable information about something
theyre were not part of at all, i.e KURULTAI of the turkic tribes and
announcement of Temirshin a Chyngys Khan. Moreover, none of these
sources were traveling to Central Asia and collecting information at
the right source, and therefore their collections are questionable as
they are based on legends, myths and stories.
Current population of Mongolian is what, about 2.8 mln? Current
population of Central Asian republics is more than 40 mln. Throughout
centuries the turkic tribes were protecting their land and now look at
Kazakhstan - 9th largest in the world by territory, were fighting with
the Jungars (mongols), and later on were struggling with the russian
empire and still were able to protect their land territory except for
minor lands taken by russia. Here is for you some introduction into
"everything steppe related" and the Turks (remember not "Turkish") and
their role in the steppe.
I'm no nationalist and respect everyone and every nation - I wanted to
provide a view on the real tribes from which CK and his people come
from.
best
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Posted By: tadamson
Date Posted: 30-Dec-2005 at 12:40
Originally posted by Kurultai
Tom,
don't mean to be rude, but I don't "have to" do anything about over
emphasizing the turkic tribes (note there's a difference between
"Turkish" you use and "TURKIC" I refer to). If you are really unaware
of the difference between the two, I doubt your understanding on
anything turkic, turkish and mongol.
Anyway, "Temujin" was first used by chinese who don't have letter "R"
in their language and therefore in their interpretation the REAL TEMIRSHIN became Temujin, picked by all others and the mongols and used since.
All the sources you refer to are real and present but were recorded
years after CK moved the turkic tribes from the current Mongolia to
Central Asia. Some were recorded from the mongolian tribes who were
populating the land left by the turkics. I doubt those mongol tribes
were able to provide any good and reliable information about something
theyre were not part of at all, i.e KURULTAI of the turkic tribes and
announcement of Temirshin a Chyngys Khan. Moreover, none of these
sources were traveling to Central Asia and collecting information at
the right source, and therefore their collections are questionable as
they are based on legends, myths and stories.
Current population of Mongolian is what, about 2.8 mln? Current
population of Central Asian republics is more than 40 mln. Throughout
centuries the turkic tribes were protecting their land and now look at
Kazakhstan - 9th largest in the world by territory, were fighting with
the Jungars (mongols), and later on were struggling with the russian
empire and still were able to protect their land territory except for
minor lands taken by russia. Here is for you some introduction into
"everything steppe related" and the Turks (remember not "Turkish") and
their role in the steppe.
I'm no nationalist and respect everyone and every nation - I wanted to
provide a view on the real tribes from which CK and his people come
from.
best
|
#1 Turkish - Turkic a very modern split used to
differentiate between different things previously referred to as
'Turkish'. I understand the difference, I just don't think that
the new word is needed.
#2 Chinese languages have no 'r' because they have no alphabet.
#3. KURULTAI - a common process amongst all the peoples who lived
a astoral nomadic lifestyle, be their ethno-linguistic origins Iranian
(eg Saka, Saurmations, Samartions) , Tibetan (eg Quing, Tangut), Altaic
(Tuju, Uighur, 'Turk', Mongol, Manchu etc..).
#4 Temuljin was the first Chingiss Khan (a title possibly chosen because there were already several GurKhans at the time).
#5 This has nothing to do with current populations of Mongolia or Central Asia
The nearest things we have to original sources refer to Temuljin and
his immediate followers as Mongols. They called themselves
Mongols. Why call them Turks ???
------------- rgds.
Tom..
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Posted By: Akskl
Date Posted: 31-Dec-2005 at 14:49
The answer is simple. Because Genghis Khan and his so-called
"Mongols" (Kereits, Naimans, Onguts, Jalairs, Qongyrats, Merkits, Tatars, Kypchaks, etc.) spoke Turkic language.
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Posted By: tadamson
Date Posted: 01-Jan-2006 at 13:58
Originally posted by Akskl
The answer is simple. Because Genghis Khan and his so-called
"Mongols" (Kereits, Naimans, Onguts, Jalairs, Qongyrats, Merkits, Tatars, Kypchaks, etc.) spoke Turkic language.
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Sadly this statement is not true, which rather undermines the argument.
------------- rgds.
Tom..
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Posted By: Akskl
Date Posted: 01-Jan-2006 at 15:21
Do you have proofs to support your statement?
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Posted By: tadamson
Date Posted: 01-Jan-2006 at 21:55
Originally posted by Akskl
Do you have proofs to support your statement?
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Read back a few comments, we have written records in Mongol that state they spoke Mongol.
ps until recently the Naimen were assumed to have spoken a Mongol
language because of the preponderance of Mongol root words in the
fragments we have. Current theory is that they spoke a Turkic
language but had lots of loan works from their Quara Khitai overlords.
------------- rgds.
Tom..
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Posted By: Akskl
Date Posted: 03-Jan-2006 at 17:11
19th century Russian historian Ivan Berezin, British scientist Colonel Yule, famous Soviet historian L.L.Viktorova, French Academician Rene Grousset, Australian professor de Rachewiltz, German professor Paul Ratchnevsky, Chinese professor Tu Ji (or Tu Chi), Dutch historian Leo de Hartog, US historians R.P.Lister, J.J.Saunders, and many others think that Naimans, Kereits, Merkits, Onguts, Qongyrats, etc. were TURKIC speaking steppe peoples.
Today they are parts of modern Kazakhs, and they still speak the same Turkic language .
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Posted By: tadamson
Date Posted: 04-Jan-2006 at 04:52
Originally posted by Akskl
19th century Russian historian Ivan Berezin, British
scientist Colonel Yule, famous Soviet historian L.L.Viktorova, French
Academician Rene Grousset, Australian professor de Rachewiltz, German
professor Paul Ratchnevsky, Chinese professor Tu Ji (or Tu Chi), Dutch
historian Leo de Hartog, US historians R.P.Lister, J.J.Saunders,
and many others think that Naimans, Kereits, Merkits, Onguts,
Qongyrats, etc. were TURKIC speaking steppe peoples.
Today they are parts of modern Kazakhs, and they still speak the same Turkic language . |
If you read all the publications by the above (deceased and living) you will find that this statement isn't true.
AND
You will find that they all consider the Mongols to have spoken a Mongol language.
FURTHER
The statement that Naimans, Kereits, Merkits, Onguts,
Qongyrats are "part of modern Kasakhs" implies a continuity that doesn't exsist.
------------- rgds.
Tom..
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Posted By: Akskl
Date Posted: 04-Jan-2006 at 11:11
Sorry, you are wrong. I did read many of publications of the above-mentioned authors. They wrote about so-called "Turko-Mongols" (sounds like "Arabo-Negroes" when speaking about Sudanese or Mauritanian Arabs) - i.e. Turkic speaking peoples or tribes. Even when the authors write "Mongols" that does not mean that the "Mongols" are somehow related to the modern Khalkha-Mongols. They are more related to Great Moghuls and to Moghulistan - Turkic speaking nomads.
Why the continuation "doesn't exist"? They still live practically at the same territories, keep speaking the same language, having the same traditional culture and food - horse meat, kurt - dried cheese, drinks - kumyss, traditional religion - Tengri, Umai, and even having the same tribal names!
Modern Kazakhs never had ancestors, they probably arrived from Moon!
Why nobody says something like that about, say, Greeks, Italians, Chinese, Celts, Slavs, etc.?
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Posted By: tadamson
Date Posted: 04-Jan-2006 at 21:31
Originally posted by Akskl
Sorry, you are wrong. I did read many of publications
of the above-mentioned authors. They wrote about so-called
"Turko-Mongols" (sounds like "Arabo-Negroes" when speaking
about Sudanese or Mauritanian Arabs) - i.e. Turkic speaking
peoples or tribes. Even when the
authors write "Mongols" that does not mean that the
"Mongols" are somehow related to the modern Khalkha-Mongols. They
are more related to Great Moghuls and to Moghulistan - Turkic
speaking nomads.
Why the continuation "doesn't exist"? They still live
practically at the same territories, keep speaking the same language,
having the same traditional culture and food - horse meat, kurt -
dried cheese, drinks - kumyss, traditional religion - Tengri, Umai, and
even having the same tribal names!
Modern Kazakhs never had ancestors, they probably arrived from Moon!
Why nobody says something like that about, say, Greeks, Italians, Chinese, Celts, Slavs, etc.?
|
Ah comprehension dawns. The term "Turco-Mongol" doesn't
mean Turkic speaking Mongol tribes. It is used by historians to
describe the various Turkic, Mongol, Tunguistic, Iranian and Tibetan
tribes who shared a common pastoral nomadic lifestyle and
culture. Their actions and motivations are so similar that they
can normaly be treated as a single culture historicaly. As most
of the great federations, coalitions and empires were led by either
Turkic or Mongo tribes/clans the term Turco-Mongol is a convienient way
to refer to them.l
------------- rgds.
Tom..
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Posted By: Akskl
Date Posted: 04-Jan-2006 at 22:37
OK, then let's use a term of "Franco-Germans" to
describe the various German, Roman, Slavic, Celtic, Finno-Ugric,
Letto-Lithuanian, Japanese, Chinese, Korean, Indian, Persian, Armenian,
Georgian etc. peoples who shared a common sedentary lifestyle and
culture.
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Posted By: tadamson
Date Posted: 05-Jan-2006 at 05:59
With hindsite it's a serious issue.
Turco-Mongol is a term that historians have used for many years, all of
us blythly happy that we understood the term. It wouldn't
surprise me if it's never been explained anywhare. Jargon is a
problem in any field but one we should be much more aware of.
ps I've now got to do a block change in my own stuff. What would be a better (or at least more obvious) term ?
"pastoral nomads" - this is still jargon
"nomadic tribes" - perhaps too vague
"Turkic, Mongol and similar tribes" - cumbersome but more accurate
I'm open to suggestions
------------- rgds.
Tom..
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Posted By: Temujin
Date Posted: 05-Jan-2006 at 14:19
Kazakhs are a mix of Turkified Mongols and Turkic tribes already living there. Timur the Lame was also such a Turkified Mongol.
-------------
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Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 05-Jan-2006 at 14:31
mongols don't value your origin. they'll accept anyone who is a good fighter.
eavin in there own rancks blood didn't mean anything. you had to earn
your ranck. there where turkic tribes in the hord. If you was a good
warrior and you could ride a horse you could join i think.
-------------
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Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 06-Jan-2006 at 03:52
Yes,We(Turks) have been in Mongol Hordes.And Mongols have been in our hordes.As Temujin's said,Timur was a Turkified Mongol.Gengis Khan was a Mongolified Turk.
Today,there is no Mongol.All of them have been Turk...
-------------
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Posted By: tadamson
Date Posted: 06-Jan-2006 at 04:57
Originally posted by Alone_Wolf
Yes,We(Turks) have been in Mongol Hordes.And Mongols have been in our
hordes.As Temujin's said,Timur was a Turkified Mongol.Gengis Khan was a
Mongolified Turk.
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Actually, Timur was a Turk and Temuljin (the Chingiss Khan) was a Mongol.
Today,there is no Mongol.All of them have been Turk...
|
I suspect that some of our members would cosider this a racist and objectionable statement, even if it is garbage.
------------- rgds.
Tom..
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Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 06-Jan-2006 at 07:51
Originally posted by tadamson
[QUOTE=Alone_Wolf] Actually, Timur was a Turk and Temuljin (the Chingiss Khan) was a Mongol.
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You're right.Feeling are the most important.I can be a Mongol but if I feel myself as a Turk,Im a Turk
Err,I didn't understand your last sentence.My english isnt good.As I understood you're saying racist about my sentence(They have been Turk at all).If reals are racist,It doesn't interest me
-------------
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Posted By: Turkoglu
Date Posted: 06-Jan-2006 at 10:18
I know that Tatars came with Golden Horde.
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Posted By: kuralas
Date Posted: 06-Jan-2006 at 11:39
Originally posted by Temujin
Kazakhs are a mix of Turkified Mongols and Turkic tribes already living there. Timur the Lame was also such a Turkified Mongol. |
Falsehood!!! Kazakhs always were turki. Mongols of Chingishan also were turki. All niruns were turkic. Chingishan and Timur were niruns and turkic!
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Posted By: Temujin
Date Posted: 06-Jan-2006 at 19:35
you can repeat that as often as you want but it will not become true...
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Posted By: Akskl
Date Posted: 06-Jan-2006 at 21:39
You can repeat that Naimans, Kereits, Jalairs, Merkits, Qongyrats,
Onguts etc. were Mongols, but this isn't true. 100%. They were and they
are Turkic tribes - today they are parts of modern Kazakhs.
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Posted By: Temujin
Date Posted: 07-Jan-2006 at 20:18
in the 13th century they were Mongols, today i don't know.
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Posted By: tadamson
Date Posted: 07-Jan-2006 at 21:53
Originally posted by Akskl
You can repeat that Naimans, Kereits, Jalairs, Merkits, Qongyrats,
Onguts etc. were Mongols, but this isn't true. 100%. They were and they
are Turkic tribes - today they are parts of modern Kazakhs.
|
The Naimen I've already talked about. In the 13th C the rest were Mongol.
There is no source or authority that calls Keraits Turkic, why do you repeat this?
ps the Modern Kazakhs only trace the sub tribes back to the 18th C.
------------- rgds.
Tom..
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Posted By: Imperator Invictus
Date Posted: 07-Jan-2006 at 22:22
I think some of those are far from certain that they were Mongols (or Turkic).
Kerits:
East of the Naimans, from the Orkhon River in the west to the Onon and
Kerulen rivers, was the new home of the Keraits. This is a group of
people that had been disputed by Tao Zongyi (T'ao Tsung-i 1316- ?) to
be Mongols, but Rashid ad-Din placed them in a subgroup with the
Naimans, Uygurs, Kirghiz, Kipchaks and other Turkic peoples while
acknowledging the resemblances between the Keraits and the Mongols.
Still one more Chinese, Tu Ji, in his "History of the Mongols" (Mengwuer Shiji),
assumed that the Keraits were Turkic and originated from Turkic Kangli
and Ghuzz and their language was Turkic. It was also said that an
important Kirghiz tribe bears the name of Kirai, which is
equivalent to Kerait. As to their Mongol characteristics, Paul
Ratchnevscky assumed that some Khitans were left behind and got
assimiliated into the Keraits. Paul Ratchnevsky emphasized the
amicableness between the Keraits and West Khitans as exemplified by the
fact that Kerait's khan, Toghrul, had once sought refuge in Western
Liao. Paul Ratchnevsky mentioned that the Keraits accepted Nestorian
faith and that the grandfather and father of Toghrul had Latin names
like Marghus (Markus) and Qurjaquz (Kyriakus).
http://www.uglychinese.org/mongolian.htm - (Source)
I think in the end, Turkic-Mongol should probably be used for most of the tribes other than the Mongols.
Also, I'd like to remind everyone to keep the discussion civil.
Anything that's rude toward a group or can be contrued as propoganda
may result in actions.
-------------
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Posted By: Akskl
Date Posted: 08-Jan-2006 at 23:28
IGOR DE RACHEWILTZ, Turks in China under the Mongols: A Preliminary
Investigation of Turco-Mongol Relations in the 13th and 14th Century,
in: CHINA AMONG EQUALS - THE MIDDLE KINGDOM AND ITS NEIGHBORS, 10th -
14th CENTURIES, EDITED BY MORRIS ROSSABI, Chapter 10, University of
California Press - Berkeley - Los Angeles London, pp.281-310.
The Turkish peoples that I have surveyed for the present investigation
are the following: Uighur, Kharlukh, Khangli, Kipchak, Ongut, Kereyid,
Naiman
We must not forget also that, as a young man and for many years,
Chinggis Khan had been a client and an ally of the Kereyid court, and
that he must inevitably have been exposed to Turkish culture through
this close association. It is perhaps not fortuitous that the very
title he assumed, Chinggis Khan, is of Turkish origin [8].
To-lo-chu (died before 1260), also from Khocho, who taught the Uighur script to Mongol nobles and also to Khubilai [23].
Of the 5 Naimans, 1 was Batus teacher Pai Pu hua (Beg Bukha) [35],
As was mentioned earlier, Khubilai was instructed in Uighur script by
To-lo-chu. While still a prince he had as senior secretary Shiban, and
among the people who, in one capacity or another, served him in these
formative years were Uighurs like Lien Hsi-hsien, Esen Nai, Arigh
Khaya, and Meng-su-ssu (Mungsuz).
http://www.kyrgyz.ru/forum/index.php?showtopic=263
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Posted By: tadamson
Date Posted: 09-Jan-2006 at 07:25
Originally posted by Akskl
IGOR DE RACHEWILTZ, Turks in China under the Mongols: A Preliminary
Investigation of Turco-Mongol Relations in the 13th and 14th Century,
in: CHINA AMONG EQUALS - THE MIDDLE KINGDOM AND ITS NEIGHBORS, 10th -
14th CENTURIES, EDITED BY MORRIS ROSSABI, Chapter 10, University of
California Press - Berkeley - Los Angeles London, pp.281-310.
The Turkish peoples that I have surveyed for the present investigation
are the following: Uighur, Kharlukh, Khangli, Kipchak, Ongut, Kereyid,
Naiman
We must not forget also that, as a young man and for many years,
Chinggis Khan had been a client and an ally of the Kereyid court, and
that he must inevitably have been exposed to Turkish culture through
this close association. It is perhaps not fortuitous that the very
title he assumed, Chinggis Khan, is of Turkish origin [8].
To-lo-chu (died before 1260), also from Khocho, who taught the Uighur script to Mongol nobles and also to Khubilai [23].
Of the 5 Naimans, 1 was Batus teacher Pai Pu hua (Beg Bukha) [35],
As was mentioned earlier, Khubilai was instructed in Uighur script by
To-lo-chu. While still a prince he had as senior secretary Shiban, and
among the people who, in one capacity or another, served him in these
formative years were Uighurs like Lien Hsi-hsien, Esen Nai, Arigh
Khaya, and Meng-su-ssu (Mungsuz).
http://www.kyrgyz.ru/forum/index.php?showtopic=263
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I have the book and have, previously, met the author.
The paper was conciously written to address the Yuan's use of Central
Asians as tax gatherers etc.. to distance themselves from
suffering and injustice that was caused by the system.
You missed one early point in the paper viz "The Kereyid and Naiman are
included in this survey with serious
reservations, as the degree of Turkishness of these tribes is still a
debatable point [2]." In essance he is admitting that they were
not necessaraly Turks but the paper is deliberately addressing any
record of Turks and possible Turks.
One thing missing from the paper is the comparrison of numbers of
non Turks (eg Turks made up less than 0.55 of known senior
officials). You should also note how the numbers of Turks only
become significant after they are conquered by the Mongols (see the
breakdown in the paper). The main exeption to this are the
Uighur, significant sections of the Uighur (especially) merchants
supported Temuljin from very early in his career (as did key Khitan
figures).
ps Are any of the Russian academics acttive on those fora? (my Russian isn't up to it).
------------- rgds.
Tom..
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Posted By: plastikglass
Date Posted: 11-Jan-2006 at 00:09
I still don't know why 'till this day that people try to differentiate
between the Mongols and Turks. Obviously they are different, but they
have many more similarities in common than you think. They lived on the
same land, brought up empires together in alliance, battled with each
other, rode with each other, brought peace with each other,
intermarried with each other, made history with each other, etc. The
Turkic people are like an ethnic cousin to us, if not a brother. The
easiest way to link a people is through cultural overlapping. Then why
do you think Mongols have so much genetic and cultural overlapping with
the Turkic people rather than the Chinese or Japanese or those other
Eastern Asian people? In actuality, Mongols have almost NO cultural
overlapping with the Chinese, even 'till this day. Read this
link(http://www.manas.kg/pdf/sbdpdf13/Makaleler/05.pdf ) to learn a bit
more and quit the fighting, Turks and Mongols are ancient brothers in
arms. As the Turkic Uigher ethnic name says "to unite, to associate".
-------------
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Posted By: HistoryGuy
Date Posted: 13-Jan-2006 at 18:26
Were they all Turkic mongoloid peoples from Central Asia in Chingis Khaan's army?
------------- هیچ مردی تا به حال به شما درباره خدا گفته.
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Posted By: tadamson
Date Posted: 13-Jan-2006 at 20:54
Originally posted by HistoryGuy
Were they all Turkic mongoloid peoples from Central Asia in Chingis Khaan's army? |
No, Tinguistic, Iranian and Tibetan (Quiang, Tangut etc) steppe
peoples were also included, plus later, Chinese, Persians and Sogdians
etc...
------------- rgds.
Tom..
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Posted By: BigL
Date Posted: 14-Jan-2006 at 01:04
even armeniens and templars fought for mongols
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Posted By: Akskl
Date Posted: 15-Jan-2006 at 14:26
No, Tinguistic, Iranian and Tibetan (Quiang, Tangut etc) steppe
peoples were also included, plus later, Chinese, Persians and Sogdians
etc...
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They even didn't know how to ride
horses and shoot arrows. There were only Chinese and Persian engineers
to help to destroy stone walls of castles and citadels.
Armenians, Georgians (Christians) were allies who were very active in destruction of Baghdad.
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Posted By: tadamson
Date Posted: 15-Jan-2006 at 19:12
Originally posted by Akskl
No, Tinguistic, Iranian and Tibetan (Quiang, Tangut etc) steppe
peoples were also included, plus later, Chinese, Persians and Sogdians
etc...
|
They even didn't know how to ride
horses and shoot arrows. There were only Chinese and Persian engineers
to help to destroy stone walls of castles and citadels.
Armenians, Georgians (Christians) were allies who were very active in destruction of Baghdad.
|
Which group don't you think knew how to ride and shoot ? and why ?
Mounted archers had been the most important troops in the armies of all
these peoples (including perian and Chinese) for hundreds of years.
------------- rgds.
Tom..
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Posted By: Akskl
Date Posted: 15-Jan-2006 at 23:36
It is well-known fact that settled peoples could not be compared to the
nomads in ancient and medieval times (before intruducing of firearms
and artillery) as warriors. Any army must be a nomad, that is why the
nomadic Turks were many times better soldiers than settled
peasants who were absolutely not prepared to the harsh conditions of
life and war in open fields. And that is why alsmost all medieval
rulers preffered to hire nomads to be their mercenaries. It was much
cheaper than to create and support their own big army. Usually
they could afford only a small personal guards not more that several
hundred or thousand men.
Turkic nomads were excellent riders and archers since childhood. Otherwise they wouldn't survive in Steppe.
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Posted By: tadamson
Date Posted: 16-Jan-2006 at 09:04
Originally posted by Akskl
It is well-known fact that settled peoples could not be compared to the
nomads in ancient and medieval times (before intruducing of firearms
and artillery) as warriors. Any army must be a nomad, that is why the
nomadic Turks were many times better soldiers than settled
peasants who were absolutely not prepared to the harsh conditions of
life and war in open fields. And that is why alsmost all medieval
rulers preffered to hire nomads to be their mercenaries. It was much
cheaper than to create and support their own big army. Usually
they could afford only a small personal guards not more that several
hundred or thousand men.
Turkic nomads were excellent riders and archers since childhood. Otherwise they wouldn't survive in Steppe.
|
Has somebody actually taught you this nonsence ????
Pastoral nomadic peoples had an advantage over settled ones in that
they could field almost every adult male as a soldier, setled
agriculturalists were trestricted to perhaps one in ten. however
the latter could field larger armies as their population densities were
20-30 times higher. The agriculturalists could also store up
supplies for long time, they could supply permenant garrissons, they
had grain fed horses that were larger, stronger and faster (though
lower stamina) and could be kept at peak condition even in winter, they
developed technologies etc....
Steppe cavalry (all of them, not just Turks) were, man for man, excellent troops and could beat most
settled troops. However they weren't supermen.
------------- rgds.
Tom..
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Posted By: HistoryGuy
Date Posted: 16-Jan-2006 at 16:49
The Mongols were Turkic, am I right? Even Chinghis Khaan was Turkic (mongol)?
------------- هیچ مردی تا به حال به شما درباره خدا گفته.
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Posted By: Akskl
Date Posted: 16-Jan-2006 at 23:30
Paul Nazaroff "Hunted Through Central Asia" Oxford University Press 1993
First published 1932
http://www.us.oup.com/us/catalog/general/subject/HistoryWo rld/Asian/~~/dmlldz11c2EmY2k9MDE5MjgwMzY4OQ==#
pp.286-288
Over an immense area in Asia where the
wandering Kazakhs ("Kirghiz" in the text - old pre-revolutionary name
used by Russians for Kazakhs - A.) have scattered, their manner of life
and their
peculiar culture, developed through millenia of existence in the free
open steppe, is the same, identical in space and identical, too, in
time. These nomads were free to move about the plains at their own
sweet will, as though upon an open sea, and there was nothing to
prevent the Kazakhs of the Tian Shan from wandering away to steppes of
Siberia, of the Ural or the Volga, except, of course, nowadays the
Bolshevik Government.
This freedom and the mobility of the nomads of the steppe has evolved
their own peculiar culture, character and manner of life, and has
played a very important part in the history of Asia, which has not yet
been properly appreciated by historians nor sufficiently studied. It
has reacted profoundly on the fate of Russia, and even Western Europe
has by no means escaped its influence. The burning sands of Egypt, the
valleys of Mesopotamia and of Palestine (the myriad horsemen of Gog and
Magog), and of India and the valleys of Russia and of Central Europe
and even Chalons, the Catalaunian plains of France, Hellas, too, and
Rome, all have seen the forbears of our Kazakh of to-day, though under
various names - as Scythians or Massagetae, Huns, Polovtsi, Kipchaks,
Kumans, Pechenegs, Alans, Tartars and so on. On every side their
invasions have left their mark, not only destructive, for sometimes
they have altered the course of historical development and affected the
blood, language, character, manners and customs of the people with whom
they have come into contact. Just as the Normans in their day made use
of their mobility upon the seas to spread their influence and culture
throughout the West, so these nomads of the steppes of Asia have done
the same in the East. The broad belt of grassy plains across the old
continent, which has given rise to the peculiar type of nomad Turki and
his inseparable comrade, the horse of the steppe, has had enormous
influence on the destinies of the settled nations and of civilisation
itself.
All distant invasions and the ` migration of peoples' have been
possible owing to one single factor, hitherto ignored by historians,
and that is the horse of the steppes. This animal is endowed with most
valuable qualities of supporting fatigue and of endless endurance and
the power of keeping up prolonged hard work on green food only, on mere
grazing, of which other races of horse are quite incapable, being
dependent on corn. These outstanding qualities of the steppe horse were
fully appreciated and widely used by the great military leaders of
Asia, conquerors, Jenghiz Khan, Tamerlane and the others [1], which
explains the secret of their success.
The limits of attainment and conquest of the countless hordes of Asia
depended not upon the powers of resistance of the subject peoples nor
upon their armies, but were defined by the moist meadow grazing, by the
cold damp of the north and by the tropical heat of the valleys of
India, which were fatal to the horse of the Kazakhs.
1 See Ivanoff, ' On the Art of War of the Mongol-Tartars' (in Russian),
a little known but extremely interesting work. Also two papers by me, "
The Scythians Past and Present" ('Edinburgh Review,' July 1929, pp.
108-122), and " The Sons of Gog " (' English Review,' March 1930).
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Posted By: tadamson
Date Posted: 17-Jan-2006 at 08:15
Akskl,
Very interesting, indeed Nazaroff's book is a fascinating tale, but it's wildly off topic for this debate. ?
I must admit I tend to reccomend it to history students as an
excellent background to the pastoral nomadic lifestyle (even in 1918 it
was stunningly similar to that of 900AD). There is a 2002 paperback
edition as well.
Nazaroff was a political actavist and adventurer, not a
historian. He was also actively campaining for aid to be sent to
anti Soviet elements amongst the nomads.
As far as I know Ivanoff was never translated but his book addressed
all steppe cultures and did try, unsucessfully in Bartolds
opinion, to explain why there were so many diverse peoples
(ethnicly and linguisticly) with , essentially, the same culture.
------------- rgds.
Tom..
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Posted By: Akskl
Date Posted: 20-Jan-2006 at 00:06
Traditional nomadic culture was the same, and the language (Turkic) was
almost the same as well - due to the nomadic way of life - over
thousands and thousands miles - from Danube river up to the Great Wall
of China.
Paul Nazaroff (Pavel Stepanovich Nazarov) knew the traditional nomadic
Kazakh culture perfectly, he was fluent in Kazakh language,
and he had excellent European education. So his opinion is very
authoritative one.
Dear Tom, dont' forget to explain your students that "Kirghiz" in the
book are actually Kazakhs. This have to be explained by editor in
Preface of the book, but unfortunately it was not, thus confusing all
the readers.
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Posted By: tadamson
Date Posted: 20-Jan-2006 at 12:02
Originally posted by Akskl
Traditional nomadic culture was the same, and the language (Turkic) was
almost the same as well - due to the nomadic way of life - over
thousands and thousands miles - from Danube river up to the Great Wall
of China.
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Whilst the cultures of the various pastoral nomadic peoples were very
similar they spoke a variety of languages from the Turkic, Mongol,
Tunguistic, Iranian and Tibetan groups (plus a few others).
Paul Nazaroff (Pavel Stepanovich Nazarov) knew the traditional nomadic
Kazakh culture perfectly, he was fluent in Kazakh language,
and he had excellent European education. So his opinion is very
authoritative one.
|
He wasn't a historian and he wasn't knowlegable about the many
Chniese, Persian, Armenian etc sources for the history od the
region. His observations are invaluable for thoses studying the
final stages of the pastoral nomadic cultures and they provide insite
into previous cultures but they are not evidence of earlier cultures.
Dear Tom, dont' forget to explain your students that "Kirghiz" in the
book are actually Kazakhs. This have to be explained by editor in
Preface of the book, but unfortunately it was not, thus confusing all
the readers.
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It's a touch more complicated than that. The two words were both
used to describe the same peoples in the 1900's but historically they
were used to describe different groups of peoples in different places
(and those meanings changed with time). eg the Kirghiz who
destroyed the Uighir's empire were a forest people who took advantage
of circumstances and came out onto the steppe. They later
retreated back to the forests, later still they were adsorbed by Turkic
groups who took on the name. The irony of this is that their own
legends give their origins as a political group founded by royal
refugees fleeing from the Xiongnu empire (one 'Zhizhi Chanyu' c.46 BCE).
------------- rgds.
Tom..
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Posted By: Akskl
Date Posted: 21-Jan-2006 at 20:51
I dont' understand why are you mentioning the ancient Kyrghyz. Nazaroff was writing about the 20th century Kazakhs, calling them in the book as "Kirghiz". He then explaines the dialectical difference in language between them and so-called "Kara-Kirghiz" - i.e. modern Kirghiz (or Kyrghyz as they call themselves now, after collapse of the Soviet Union).
What Tungusic and Tibetan nomads you are talking about? Maybe there were very few of them but they didn't do any noticable impact in the history of Asia. "Iranian" nomads like Scythes and Sarmatians are under big question that they were really Iranian speakers (anyway their DNA is closest to the modern Kazakhs' DNA). So-called "Mongols" of Genghis Khan were all Turkic speakers. Even Khitans were "Turko-Mongols" who's language was very close to Turkic one. Khitan prince learnt to speak fluently with Uyghur Turks after only 20 days of communcation with them (see F.W.Mott "Imperial China").
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Posted By: tadamson
Date Posted: 21-Jan-2006 at 22:11
Originally posted by Akskl
I dont' understand why are you mentioning the ancient Kyrghyz.
Nazaroff was writing about the 20th century Kazakhs, calling them in
the book as "Kirghiz". He then explaines the dialectical difference in
language between them and so-called "Kara-Kirghiz" - i.e. modern
Kirghiz (or Kyrghyz as they call themselves now, after collapse
of the Soviet Union).
|
I brought it up because you tried to introduce this as evidence that Temuljins Mongols spoke Turkish
What Tungusic and Tibetan nomads you are talking about? Maybe
there were very few of them but they didn't do any noticable
impact in the history of Asia. "Iranian" nomads like Scythes
and Sarmatians are under big question that they were really
Iranian speakers (anyway their DNA is closest to the modern Kazakhs'
DNA). So-called "Mongols" of Genghis Khan were all Turkic
speakers. Even Khitans were "Turko-Mongols" who's language was very
close to Turkic one. Khitan prince learnt to speak
fluently with Uyghur Turks after only 20 days of communcation with
them (see F.W.Mott "Imperial
China").   ;
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There is NO evidence that Temuljins Mongols spoke a Turkic language
andthere is clear evidence tey spoke a Mongol language, You have
admitted this yet you keep saying the opposite. As for Khitan, we
have extensive written records of this Mongol language, why fantisise
that they spoke a Turkic language?
------------- rgds.
Tom..
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Posted By: Akskl
Date Posted: 22-Jan-2006 at 00:17
F.W.Mott "Imperial China 900-1800" Harvard University Press, Third Printing 2003, Cambridge, Massachusetts, and London, England.
p.30
...To begin the story of this phase of Chinese history, I shall then start in the early tenth century, with the brilliant achivements of the Turco-Mongol or Proto-Mongol (like Genghis Khan's "Mongols" probably, who were all Turkic speakers? - A.) Khitan nation in creating new forms for exploiting the power of their pastoral nomad state. That extraordinary story follows next...
p.42 4th line from the bottom:
...In 925 Abaoji's (ruler of Khitans - A.) younger brother Diela appears to have played the essential role in devising a new script. The Liao History states: "An Uighur delegation arrived, and there was no one who could understand their language. The Empress said to Emperor Taizu: "Diela, who is very intelligent, could be assigned to serve." He was sent to accompany the delegation. After spending twenty days in their company he had learned their speech and their writing, following which he devised the Khitan small script, which has fewer characters yet is comprehensive"...
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Posted By: Akskl
Date Posted: 22-Jan-2006 at 00:35
http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1P1:93176585/GENGHIS+KHAN+A+KAZAKH%3f.html&refid=ency_botnm - http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1P1:93176585/GENGHIS+KHAN+A+KAZA KH%3f.html&refid=ency_botnm
United Press International 04-06-2004 Genghis Khan a Kazakh?
ALMATY, Kazakhstan, Apr 06, 2004 (United Press International via COMTEX) -- The legendary conqueror Genghis Khan, who died in 1227, was a Kazakh, a historian from Kazakhstan said Wednesday.
Kalibek Daniyarov, author of "Who was Genghis Khan by birth?" told the Centrasia Web site it is myth Khan was a Mongol.
No head of the Mongolian state was ever titled "khan," Daniyarov said, and no tribes forming the modern Mongolian nation participated in Genghis's campaigns.
Genghis Khan was born near the present-day Mongolia-Russia border ...
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Posted By: tadamson
Date Posted: 24-Jan-2006 at 22:00
Originally posted by Akskl
F.W.Mott "Imperial China 900-1800" Harvard University
Press, Third Printing 2003, Cambridge, Massachusetts, and London,
England.
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At first I asumed that you had been taught the wrong things, then I
assumed that you were misunderstanding what you had read, now I realise
that you were simply trolling.
For everyone else, Alskl has referenced the best Western book on the
period. For those interested in the relationships between Turks
and Mongols at the time of Temuljin, they should get this book (any
university library will have it and it's reasonably priced to buy),
turn to page 407 and read chapter 17 section II "The Ethnic Geography
of Inner Asia in the Late Twelth Century". Professor Mote gives a
clear and coherent description of what we know (including, needless to
say, that the Mongols were not Turks).
------------- rgds.
Tom..
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Posted By: tadamson
Date Posted: 24-Jan-2006 at 22:04
Originally posted by Akskl
http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1P1:93176585/GENGHIS+KHAN+A+KAZAKH%3f.html&refid=ency_botnm - http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1P1:93176585/GENGHIS+KHAN+A+KAZA KH%3f.html&refid=ency_botnm
United Press International 04-06-2004 Genghis Khan a Kazakh?
ALMATY,
Kazakhstan, Apr 06, 2004 (United Press International via COMTEX) -- The
legendary conqueror Genghis Khan, who died in 1227, was a Kazakh, a
historian from Kazakhstan said Wednesday.
Kalibek Daniyarov, author of "Who was Genghis Khan by birth?" told the Centrasia Web site it is myth Khan was a Mongol.
No
head of the Mongolian state was ever titled "khan," Daniyarov said, and
no tribes forming the modern Mongolian nation participated in Genghis's
campaigns.
Genghis Khan was born near the present-day Mongolia-Russia border ... |
And this article is exactly the sort of racist nonsence that has caused
so much trouble in the past. It is precisely because history has
taught me that these racist and xenophopic views can cause dreadful
harm, that I try to counter any racially inspired sillyness, regardles
of the originators reason for promoting it.
------------- rgds.
Tom..
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