Trinity what is your doctrine
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Topic: Trinity what is your doctrine
Posted By: eaglecap
Subject: Trinity what is your doctrine
Date Posted: 13-Feb-2006 at 17:35
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I would like only the views of Christians about what the Trinity is:
They can be Prostestant, Orthodox, Catholic, Mormon, JW, coptic, moonies, or any Christian related faith But!!! Please make your posts factual and not just your opinion. If you grew up as a Christian but no longer believe it then that is fine but please no opinion- what is your church doctrine on the Trinity???? Please Christians and exChristian only!! your own words and no cut and pastes - I don't have time to read them ------------- Λοιπόν, αδελφοί και οι συμπολίτες και οι στρατιώτες, να θυμάστε αυτό ώστε μνημόσυνο σας, φήμη και ελευθερία σας θα ε |
Replies:
Posted By: Byzantine Emperor
Date Posted: 13-Feb-2006 at 18:21
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As a Protestant (Southern Baptist to be exact), I believe that God reveals Himself through the three persons of the Trinity - the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Each person of the Trinity has its own significant attributes but are united in terms of essence and nature. ------------- http://www.allempires.net/forum_posts.asp?TID=12713 - Late Byzantine Military http://www.allempires.net/forum_posts.asp?TID=17337 - Ottoman perceptions of the Americas |
Posted By: eaglecap
Date Posted: 13-Feb-2006 at 18:56
B-emp could you elaborate some more and I would love to hear orhtodox doctrine as well.  ------------- Λοιπόν, αδελφοί και οι συμπολίτες και οι στρατιώτες, να θυμάστε αυτό ώστε μνημόσυνο σας, φήμη και ελευθερία σας θα ε |
Posted By: Maju
Date Posted: 14-Feb-2006 at 08:40
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As a Pantheist (and therefore Christian, Muslim, Jew, Hindu, Buddhist and whatever you want), I say it is a superstition... ... but God is a superstition as well. I think that all Christians are idolatres because they take a book as if it was God, which is outmostly blaspheme.  ------------- 
NO GOD, NO MASTER! |
Posted By: Le Renard
Date Posted: 14-Feb-2006 at 09:24
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As a member of the LDS Church We believe in God the Eternal Father and in his son Jesus Christ and in the Holy Ghost. They are three seperate beings who are united in objective and spirit. To help validate what I say read Matthew 3:16-17: 16) And Jesus, when he was http://scriptures.lds.org/matt/3/16a#16a - abaptized , went up http://scriptures.lds.org/matt/3/16b#16b - bstraightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the http://scriptures.lds.org/matt/3/16c#16c - cSpirit of God descending like a http://scriptures.lds.org/matt/3/16d#16d - ddove , and lighting upon him: 17) <>document.write(drawVerse(17,72987)); And lo a http://scriptures.lds.org/matt/3/17a#17a - avoice from heaven, saying, This is my http://scriptures.lds.org/matt/3/17b#17b - bbeloved http://scriptures.lds.org/matt/3/17c#17c - cSon , in whom I am well pleased. Jesus Christ, baptised; Holy Ghost, decended; Heavenly Father, vocie from heaven. -- we get three seperate members of the Godhead
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Posted By: Emperor Barbarossa
Date Posted: 14-Feb-2006 at 12:10
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I was raised a Catholic, and I was taught basically the same: the Holy Trinity(Father, Son, Holy Spirit) and that the Bible was divinely inspired by God. ------------- 
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Posted By: arsenka
Date Posted: 14-Feb-2006 at 12:52
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I think that all Christians are idolatres because they take a book as if it was God, which is outmostly blaspheme. "but God is a superstition as well." - I'd express it in different way: any image of God is human mind's creation. Saying nothing about particularities. Particularities just don't matter. Even if anybody proved that Christ had never existed I don't think I'd turn Christian moral down. The sence of Christianity is in its human spirit and not in details. I deeply believe in invaluableness of life of ANY human being, I believe in Love,Hope and Mercy as crucial points in treating other people, I believe in human responsibility for the world in which we live. & nbsp; & nbsp; It's a little bit non-orthodoxal point of view,I know; it's mixed with philosophy and doesn't suit any branch of Christian religion. Well, that's my Christianity as I see it. To its PROs I can say that it has never contradicted any other religion or scientific imagination. Oh! Sorry, it's not only mine - I know a lot of people who share my views. Maybe we are some sort of heretics? ------------- arsenka |
Posted By: Theophos
Date Posted: 14-Feb-2006 at 14:24
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Of course, I believe in the Triune God: God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit.
In spite of being a controversial view even amongst christians, the Bible and Jesus Himself point in that direction. Though it might be too of an abstract concept for some, I believe in these three Persons of the Trinity as the whole one God. Just like tree beams of the sun - they are beams, but they are the sun as well. They are all of the same substance. Therefore, God is always God and always One, although manifest in three Persons.
This is a central doctrine and tenet of all Christian Churches - Catholic, Orthodox and Protestant. ------------- "I am the way the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father but through me." --John 14:6 |
Posted By: ArmenianSurvival
Date Posted: 14-Feb-2006 at 15:48
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I can be considered Christian because: 1. I was baptized in the Armenian Apostolic Church. 2. I agree with basically all fundamental morals of Christianity (with some minor exceptions). However, I do not believe Jesus was the son of God, only a prophet (if I was to believe that he actually spoke to God, which is too abstract for me to be sure about...because depending on the definition, I have also spoken to God...you know what I mean?). I do not read the Bible or attend church. I think the Bible itself and the institution of the church are the greatest bastardizations of the teachings of Jesus (and if this is what Jesus wanted, then count me out  ). I believe that one's faith should be kept private. One can say that I feel the same way towards Islam and Judaism (respecting the faiths but loathing their institutions). I also can be seen as an animist because I believe that spirits can transcend their bodily entrapment. Do I mean to say that one day I will meet my loved ones after death? No, I have serious doubts about an afterlife. Its more along the lines of believing that spirits are constituted of energy, and when the person dies (maybe while they are still alive?) then that energy becomes dispersed from their body and takes another form, or simply flickers into oblivion. I believe everything is One. I believe in reincarnation as much and if not more than I believe in an afterlife. So my beliefs are kind of like Christian/Islamic/Jewish morals with some Buddhist, Pagan and Animist elements thrown in the mix (I especially appreciate Buddha's 4 noble truths and the eightfold path). I particularly like Buddhism, and its the religion I am most sympathetic towards. Mainly because its the most practical and realistic of the religions (to me), but it is still able to retain elements of deep spirituality, which I appreciate. I have no problem accepting that all my beliefs can be wrong. This is simply what I lean towards, and maybe I'll have a different outlook next month. Who knows. As for the Trinity... I believe its just another form of Paganism. If you believe there is a God, Satan, Virgin Mary, Jesus.....thats already 4 supernatural beings that are recognized by the same religion (same thing with the father, son and holy ghost). Doesn't get more Pagan than that. Not that theres anything wrong with being Pagan (I have a friend who is Pagan), but its pretty ironic considering Christianity waged so many crusades against Paganism only to become a Pagan religion itself. You see why I can't stand the hypocrisy of the institutions of religion? 
Ditto, eaglecap. Religion itself is an abstract entity. ------------- Mass Murderers Agree: Gun Control Works! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Van_Resistance Քիչ ենք բայց Հայ ենք։ |
Posted By: Byzantine Emperor
Date Posted: 14-Feb-2006 at 19:16
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What is that supposed to mean? You must have encountered some pretty strange "Christians" if that is the impression you got! I would never worship the Bible itself as God or as a manifestation of God. This would be idolatry and a violation of the first and the second commandment. It is quite absurd to even think of Christian worshiping a book if you ask me. The apostle John speaks of Christ himself as being the actual divine Word of God (in Greek, the divine Logos). As a Protestant Christian, I worship God through Christ, who has saved me from my sins. Because Christ is the Logos of God, it does not mean I worship a book. As for the Scriptures, I do believe that it was written through the inspiration of the Holy Spirit and that it is infallible. However, this does not call for me actually worshiping the book. The Scriptures are to be used as divine instruction. They contain God's message of salvation. To be saved, though, involves a personal decision and commitment to a relationship, not mere worship.
No I do not see and I also do not understand what in the world you mean here! ------------- http://www.allempires.net/forum_posts.asp?TID=12713 - Late Byzantine Military http://www.allempires.net/forum_posts.asp?TID=17337 - Ottoman perceptions of the Americas |
Posted By: Omar al Hashim
Date Posted: 14-Feb-2006 at 19:48
lol, thats what a muslim would've said.  ------------- |
Posted By: malizai_
Date Posted: 14-Feb-2006 at 22:03
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I think antagonistic comments like the above are usefull in society because they create debate.
WHAT UTTER NONSENSE!!! and U call them idolaters for all the wrong reason. Christianity is most alike in belief to Hinduism. For majority of Hindus believe that their many gods are a manifestation of the one supreme GOD. A bit like trinity. The pagan idolaters of Arabia were no different. The most succinct description of GOD that i have heard is one given by the aborigines. Adnatu, is the name of their supreme being and it means the one without an anus. For all its bruteness is is a very developed concept. For what they r saying is that we don't know what he looks like but we do know that he is not an organic entity. He is free of tiredness and needs, he is not hungry, miserable, a god that sleeps, a god that fathers sons and daughters. So there is nothing like unto him. The aborigines may be the first to a express a monotheistic belief. I am intrigued to know what the rig veda says, maybe in a different topic ------------- |
Pantheism is the belief that everything is god. ie a shoestring, used toilet paper, nitric acid, a golf player. A pantheist does not belong to any religion, let alone five/six different ones. He reduces GOD to E=mc2 and thats it.Posted By: flyingzone
Date Posted: 14-Feb-2006 at 23:05
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Since this post contains mixed messages, I am not sure if I, an ex-Christian, could express my opinion or not because you also mention that "if you grew up as a Christian but no longer believe it then that is fine but please no opinion" .... Now that I am an atheist, I wil call that superstition. However, even when I was an extremely devout Christian (under the influence of my Anglican dad and Baptist mom), the "holy trinity" was one of the Christian doctrines that I felt the most uncomfortable with for several reasons: (1) the bible never directly mentions it - all the so-called quotes and references are indirect; one would think if it is such an important aspect of the Christian teaching, the bible should be very clear about it; (2) the very fact that this doctrine had to be "reaffirmed" by some creeds of some councils only reinforced my deep suspicion of this concept; (3) the very evident "pagan" origin of the concept of the "holy trinity". In fact so many things about Christianity (even the very compilation of the so-called bible) are "artificially" decided and/or fabricated by some men (in the name of some "council" or some "creed") that I have eventually lost all my faith in it. Of course that's on top of everything else. ------------- |
Posted By: Byzantine Emperor
Date Posted: 14-Feb-2006 at 23:53
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I don't think the actual words "Holy Trinity" actually appear in the Greek New Testament; nevertheless, the concept is definitely present. God the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are all mentioned in separate incidents and their attributes are elucidated. In the great commission at the end of the Gospel of Matthew, Christ himself tells the apostles to "go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit (poreuthentes oun matheteusate panta ta ethne, baptizontes autous eis to onoma tou patros kai tou uiou kai tou hagiou pneumatos) (Matthew 28:19).
If the things you are talking about are in the Scriptures, I would very much like to see you prove it. Have you ever examined Greek manuscripts of the text or read the New Testament in the original language? I was a believing Christian before I learned to read ancient Greek; after I learned, it only served to increase the firmness of my faith. You might think differently if you could study those manuscripts and learn to appreciate the facility of the language to convey the concepts of the faith. As for all this comparison of the Trinity to pagan ideas, I really do not see any religious syncretism here. Maybe I can see similarities in the tendency of Catholics and Orthodox to put so much emphasis on the place of Mary and her perpetual virginity and post-partum sinlessness. ------------- http://www.allempires.net/forum_posts.asp?TID=12713 - Late Byzantine Military http://www.allempires.net/forum_posts.asp?TID=17337 - Ottoman perceptions of the Americas |
Posted By: eaglecap
Date Posted: 15-Feb-2006 at 00:07
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I found this Protestant view by Dr. Norm Gieslar. I read a book on Islam by him and one about logic. I could not finish the logic one- brain exploded-
Forgive me for not maintianing my own rule no cut and paste - bad eaglecap!!! lol by Dr. Norman Geisler Trinity simply means "triunity." God is not a simple unity; there is plurality in his unity. The Trinity is one of the great mysteries of the Christian Faith. Unlike an antinomy or paradox, which is a logical contradiction, the Trinity goes beyond reason but not against reason. It is known only by divine revelation, so the Trinity is not the subject of natural theology but of revelation. The Basis for the Trinity. While the word Trinity does not occur there, the concept is clearly taught in the Bible. The logic of the doctrine of the Trinity is simple. Two biblical truths are evident in Scripture, the logical conclusion of which is the Trinity: 1. There is one God. 2. There are three distinct persons who are God: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. One God. The central teaching of Judaism called the Shema proclaims: "Hear, 0 Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one" (Deut. 6:4). When Jesus was asked the question, "What is the greatest commandment?" he prefaced the answer by quoting the Shema (Mark 12:29). In spite of his strong teaching on the deity of Christ (cf. Col. 2:9), the apostle Paul said emphatically, "there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live" (1 Cor. 8:6a). From beginning to end, the Scriptures speak of one God and label all other gods as false (Exod. 20:3; 1 Cor. 8:5-6). The Bible also recognizes a plurality of persons in God. Although the doctrine of the Trinity is not as explicit in the Old Testament as the New Testament, nonetheless, there are passages where members of the Godhead are distinguished. At times they even speak to one another (see Ps. 110:1). The Father Is God. Throughout Scripture God is said to be a Father. Jesus taught his disciples to pray, "Our Father in heaven" (Matt. 6:9). God is not only "our heavenly Father" (Matt. 6:32) but the "Father of our spirits" (Heb. 12:9). As God, he is the object of worship. Jesus told the woman of Samaria, "Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshippers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for they are the kind of worshippers the Father seeks" (John 4:23). God is not only called "our Father" (Rom. 1:7) many times but also "the Father" (John 5:45; 6:27). He is also called "God and Father" (2 Cor. 1:3). Paul proclaimed that "there is but one God, the Father" (I Cor. 8:6). Additionally, God is referred to as the "Father of our Lord Jesus Christ" (Rom. 15:6). Indeed, the Father and the Son are often related by these very names in the same verse (Matt. 11:27; 1 John 2:22). The Son Is God. The deity of Christ is treated [in a future article] in the section on attacks on the Trinity and more extensively in Bakers Encyclopedia of Christian Apologetics in an article entitled Christ, Deity of. As a broad overview it should he noted that: Jesus claimed to be Yahweh God. YHWH, translated in some versions Jehovah, was the special name of God revealed to Moses in Exodus 3:14, when God said, "I AM WHO I AM." In John 8:58, Jesus declares: "Before Abraham was born, I am." This statement claims not only existence before Abraham, but equality with the "I AM" of Exodus 3:14. The Jews around him clearly understood his meaning and picked up stones to kill him for blaspheming (see Mark 14:62; John 8:58; 10:31-33; 18:5-6). Jesus also said, "I am the first and the last (Rev. 2:8). Jesus took the glory of God. Isaiah wrote, "I am the LORD [Yahweh], that is my name! I will not give my glory to another; or my praise to idols" (42:8) and, "This is what the LORD [Yahweh] says . . . I am the first and I am the last; apart from me there is no God" (44:6). Likewise, Jesus prayed, "Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began" (John 17:5). But Yahweh had said he would not give his glory to another. While the Old Testament forbids giving worship to anyone other than God (Exod. 20:1-4; Deut. 5:6-9), Jesus accepted worship (Matt. 8:2; 14:33; 15:25; 20:20; 28:17; Mark 5:6). The disciples attributed to him titles the Old Testament reserved for God, such as, "the first and the last" (Rev. 1:17; 2:8; 22:13), "the true light" (John 1:9), "the "rock" or "stone" (1 Cor. 10:4; 1 Peter 2:6-8; cf. Ps. 18:2; 95:1), the "bridegroom" (Eph. 5:28-33; Rev. 21:2), "the chief Shepherd" (I Peter 5:4), and "the great shepherd" (Heb. 13:20). They attributed to Jesus the divine activities of creating (John 1:3; Col. 1:15-16), redeeming (Hosea 13:14; Ps. 130:7), forgiving (Acts 5:31; Col. 3:13; cf. Ps. 130:4; Jer: 31:34), and judging (John 5:27). They used titles of deity for Jesus. Thomas declared: "My Lord and my God!" (John 20:28). Paul calls Jesus the one in whom "the fullness of deity dwells bodily" (Col. 2:9). In Titus, Jesus is called, "our great God and savior" (2:13), and the writer to the Hebrews says of him, "Thy throne, 0 God, is forever" (Heb. 1:8). Paul says that, before Christ existed as a human being, he existed as God (Phil. 2:5-8). Hebrews 1:3 says that Christ reflects Gods glory, bears the stamp of his nature, and upholds the universe. The prologue to Johns Gospel also minces no words, stating, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word [Jesus] was God" (John 1:1). Jesus claimed equality with God in other ways. He claimed the prerogatives of God. He claimed to be Judge of all (Matt. 25:31-46; John 5:27-30), but Joel quotes Yahweh as saying, "for there I will sit to judge all the nations on every side" (Joel 3:12). He said to a paralytic, "Son, your sins are forgiven" (Mark 2:5b). The scribes correctly responded, "Who can forgive sins but God alone?" (vs. 7b). Jesus claimed the power to raise and judge the dead, a power which only God possesses (John 5:21, 29). But the Old Testament clearly taught that only God was the giver of life (Deut. 32:39; 1 Sam. 2:6) and the one to raise the dead (Psa. 71:20). Jesus claimed the honor due God, saying, "He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father, who sent him" (John 5:23b). The Jews listening knew that no one should claim to be equal with God in this way and again they reached for stones (John 5:18). When asked at his Jewish trial, "Are you the Christ (Messiah), the Son of the Blessed One?" Jesus responded, "I am, and you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven" (Mark 14:61b-62). The Holy Spirit Is God. The same revelation from God that declares Christ to be the Son of God also mentions another member of the triunity of God called the Spirit of God, or Holy Spirit. He too is equally God with the Father and the Son, and he too is a distinct person. The Holy Spirit is called "God" (Acts 5:3-4). He possesses the attributes of deity, such as omnipresence (cf. Ps. 139:7-12) and omniscience (1 Cor. 2:10, 11). He is associated with God the Father in creation (Gen. 1:2). He is involved with other members of the Godhead in the work of redemption (John 3:5-6; Rom. 8:9-17, 27; Titus 3:5-7). He is associated with other members of the Trinity under the "name" of God (Matt. 28:18-20). Finally, the Holy Spirit appears, along with the Father and Son, in New Testament benedictions (for example, 2 Cor. 13:14). Not only does the Holy Spirit possess deity but he also has a differentiated personality. That he is a distinct person is clear in that Scripture refers to "him" with personal pronouns (John 14:26; 16:13). Second, he does things only persons can do, such as teach (John 14:26; 1 John 2:27), convict of sin (John 16:7-11), and be grieved by sin (Eph. 4:30). Finally, the Holy Spirit has intellect (I Cor. 2:10,11), will (1 Cor. 12:11), and feeling (Eph. 4:30). That the three members of the Trinity are distinct persons is clear in that each is mentioned in distinction from the others. The Son prayed to the Father (cf. John 17). The Father spoke from heaven about the Son at his baptism (Matt. 3:15-17). Indeed, the Holy Spirit was present at the same time, revealing that they coexist. Further, the fact that they have separate titles (Father, Son, and Spirit) indicate they are not one person. Also, each member of the Trinity has special functions that help us to identify them. For example, the Father planned salvation (John 3:16; Eph. 1:4); the Son accomplished it on the cross (John 17:4; 19:30; Heb. 1:1-2) and at the resurrection (Rom. 4:25; 1 Cor. 15:1-6), and the Holy Spirit applies it to the lives of the believers (John 3:5; Eph. 4:30; Titus 3:5-7). The Son submits to the Father (1 Cor. 11:3; 15:28), and the Holy Spirit glorifies the Son (John 16:14). (to be continued) Theological Dictionary Authors Dr. Randall Price Dr. Steve Sullivan Dr. Norm Geisler ------------- Λοιπόν, αδελφοί και οι συμπολίτες και οι στρατιώτες, να θυμάστε αυτό ώστε μνημόσυνο σας, φήμη και ελευθερία σας θα ε |
Posted By: Omar al Hashim
Date Posted: 15-Feb-2006 at 00:48
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I have one question. The bible was compiled in 325 AD in the Council of
Nicea which was chaired by the Emperor Constantine who never truely
converted to christianity just joined it as a pagan would join the
temple or jupitor. How can you be sure that the bible is authentic?
There seem to be two points to make, a) How can you be sure that the gospel didn't change over the years. Not significantly I mean, but in the chinese whispers way, people add extra sentences, forget others etc. b) How can you be sure that Constantine did not intentionally corrupt chrisitanity to make more acceptable for Roman values? At the time of the council of nicea there were christians who denied the trinity, if they denied it ignoring all the above evidence, is it possible that the that evidence didn't exist 1700 years ago, and has been added by a later council? God created the entire universe. Why do you think is would be hard for him to create one man? Exactly how does God have a son? Why aren't all people the 'son' of god? We are all created by his will. Ok thats more than one question so I'll stop now before I get carried away. ------------- |
Posted By: Byzantine Emperor
Date Posted: 15-Feb-2006 at 01:40
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How is what is contained in the Bible (specifically in the New Testament) compatible with Roman values? If anything, the New Testament is incompatible and opposite of what it was to be a true Roman. The New Testament's emphasis on an eternal reward, worshiping one God, salvation by grace through faith, and "turning the other cheek" do not mesh well with Roman values of earthly power and wealth, polytheism, and leaving a good earthly legacy behind. The very symbol of the cross would be despicable to a Roman: it was an instrument for the execution of criminals. To Christians it became the symbol of their redemption and salvation. Also, Romans thought the act of taking Communion was disgusting and totally misunderstood it to be an act of cannibalism!
Um...what makes you think it was so difficult for God to create a man?
In Christ, all Christians are sons and daughters of God. In Revelation, it says that we will claim our inheritance that we gained through Christ when he calls the church home. As for Christ himself, he was never created by God. He is God and Scriptures say that he was with God through out all eternity. ------------- http://www.allempires.net/forum_posts.asp?TID=12713 - Late Byzantine Military http://www.allempires.net/forum_posts.asp?TID=17337 - Ottoman perceptions of the Americas |
Posted By: Raider
Date Posted: 15-Feb-2006 at 07:31
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The Unitarians definitively deny the Trinity. According to their faith Jzus was a simple man, not God, but he was closer to God than any other human being. They beleive that the Holy Siprit is a simple allegory for the actions of God in which he make contact with the people. http://www.unitarius.hu/uch.htm - http://www.unitarius.hu/uch.htm http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unitarian - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unitarian |
Posted By: eaglecap
Date Posted: 15-Feb-2006 at 14:12
How much does the Orthodox or Roman Catholic doctrine on the Trinity differ from the above Prostestant view. I gather from talking to Catholics and Orthodox it is fairly close. I was raised Lutheran so my Orthodox experience is limited to only three years as a child. ------------- Λοιπόν, αδελφοί και οι συμπολίτες και οι στρατιώτες, να θυμάστε αυτό ώστε μνημόσυνο σας, φήμη και ελευθερία σας θα ε |
Posted By: ulrich von hutten
Date Posted: 15-Feb-2006 at 14:38
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IN GOD WE TRUST all others pay cash ------------- 
http://imageshack.us"> 
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Posted By: eaglecap
Date Posted: 15-Feb-2006 at 15:51
Cute- How about Jesus saves AND Moses invests!! ------------- Λοιπόν, αδελφοί και οι συμπολίτες και οι στρατιώτες, να θυμάστε αυτό ώστε μνημόσυνο σας, φήμη και ελευθερία σας θα ε |
span style="color: rgb(255, 0, 0);">IN GOD WE</spanPosted By: hugoestr
Date Posted: 15-Feb-2006 at 17:03
Eaglecap, I have told you several times that we must be inclusive when making polls. Creating exclusive polls is okay once in a while, but exclusively doing so is rude and inconsiderate. I will show you what I mean. Remember that people from all over the world and with all different faiths visit this forum. ------------- |
Posted By: eaglecap
Date Posted: 16-Feb-2006 at 20:27
I suppose it is not PC enough!!!If I offended you I am sorry but if... ...you look there is a thread for other views but I wanted posts of people who grew up with this doctrine on this thread whether they believe it or not. If I did not make this exclusive then all I would get is opinions or other religious views who may not fully understand the Christian doctrine. ------------- Λοιπόν, αδελφοί και οι συμπολίτες και οι στρατιώτες, να θυμάστε αυτό ώστε μνημόσυνο σας, φήμη και ελευθερία σας θα ε |
Posted By: Maju
Date Posted: 16-Feb-2006 at 23:00
... but of course you are not one, so you can't understand. I think that it is important for any Pantheist (and that means anyone ultimately) to empathize and understand the multiplicity of beliefs, paranormal phenomena and whatever. This doesn't mean to accept their dogmas or rituals (it would be impossible to fulfill all them - and anyhow that's the trivial part of religions) but to accept that all them are forms of the Truth... ... true that Hitler and Satanic human sacrifices are also part of it... we are a very contradictory God. 
That's because, no matter how idolatrists, they know that God is all. While Abramanists don't, they think that God is alien to reality and that some things are divine while others aren't. It's Abrahamanists who are actually most confused... 
That's blasphemous for me: God is also the anus... how can you concieve a God without anus or whitout anything...
I think that instead they miss the important part, they idealize God. And while God is ideal, it is also real and total... therefore they are only appreciating a sclice of God not the True Divinty in its plenitude. -------------
NO GOD, NO MASTER! |
Posted By: Maju
Date Posted: 16-Feb-2006 at 23:16
After reading Eaglecap's divagations I understood how Jesus is God and how the Holy Spirit is God... but I didn't understand how Yaveh, aka the Father, is God.  Can you explain that to me? -------------
NO GOD, NO MASTER! |
Posted By: Omar al Hashim
Date Posted: 16-Feb-2006 at 23:23
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Ok, now I have to ask, What is a pantheist? and Why do people become pantheists? ------------- |
Posted By: malizai_
Date Posted: 16-Feb-2006 at 23:29
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Oh i think they realize that there is plenty of god alright. What they don't do is frame god. Just like u say what he is and where he is, they say we don't know what he is, for we know he exists but since we haven't seen him we cant describe him. Maju would u say u r GOD? just interested... ------------- |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 17-Feb-2006 at 01:17
| If Jesus was God...what was he doing for the first 30+ years? |
Posted By: Theophos
Date Posted: 17-Feb-2006 at 11:22
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Saving you ------------- "I am the way the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father but through me." --John 14:6 |
Posted By: eaglecap
Date Posted: 17-Feb-2006 at 18:40
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If Jesus was God...what was he doing for the first 30+ years?
The point of this is what is your doctrine today or at least the one you grew up with. If you are not in a Christian sect then I suppose you would not have a doctrine but at least tell us what you know about it instead of criticism please!! I wonder what the JW view is on this topic? ------------- Λοιπόν, αδελφοί και οι συμπολίτες και οι στρατιώτες, να θυμάστε αυτό ώστε μνημόσυνο σας, φήμη και ελευθερία σας θα ε |
Posted By: Omar al Hashim
Date Posted: 17-Feb-2006 at 20:04
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I don't think asking questions is criticism, because your asking something to find an answer.
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Posted By: Maju
Date Posted: 17-Feb-2006 at 22:54
Sure. You are too. I just don't like to put emphais in that because it seems like megalomaniathic... and that's not the idea. I, you and the trash in the bin: all is equally divine - and fool the one who can't see it. I don't put the emphasis in being God (because I feel like I have already enough problems ) but in everything ebing equally Divine. In amoralizing and depersonalizing God - not because of any ideological prejudice, because it can't be other way. Else, I would have to blame God. This way can live in It. -------------
NO GOD, NO MASTER! |
Posted By: hugoestr
Date Posted: 18-Feb-2006 at 01:29
Let me say this again: people from all over the world and with all different kinds of faiths come here. Excluding people in most of your polls is rude. Once in a while asking just a specific kind of people for their opinion is okay. Doing it most of the time it isn't. If you start a thread in AE, you are in fact requesting people from all over the world and different faiths to participate in your thread. If you want to ask JUST Christians, find a forum that fits your desired description and ask there. For this topic, you can go to the Christian forums at http://www.beliefnet.com/ ------------- |
Posted By: eaglecap
Date Posted: 20-Feb-2006 at 19:58
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Let me say this again: people from all over the world and with all different kinds of faiths come here. Excluding people in most of your polls is rude.
I do not think it is rude at all to ask someone what their doctrine is. If they are not in a Christian sect then I am not convinced they would fully understand any type of Christian doctrine, it is not part of their identity. I put up the other thread on non-christian view so they can have an outlet on this topic. I will ask the adminstrator if your stance is fair or too heavy handed. Now Christians are made up of many sects so I do not think I was being too narrow. ------------- Λοιπόν, αδελφοί και οι συμπολίτες και οι στρατιώτες, να θυμάστε αυτό ώστε μνημόσυνο σας, φήμη και ελευθερία σας θα ε |
Posted By: Maju
Date Posted: 21-Feb-2006 at 00:33
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What's the point of asking to Christians or Muslims, if, you know, atheist-pantheist Maju will come and break your scheme. Why a trinity? Why not a duality, a quintuplicity or an icosaedre. Does the trinity explain where are the 6 or 7 dimensions we are lacking of? Why the trinity is all guys? It seems a bunch of teen-agers drinking in a pub... Why don't you venerate a female trinity like Nubians used to do? I believe in the following trinity:
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NO GOD, NO MASTER! |
Posted By: Le Renard
Date Posted: 21-Feb-2006 at 09:33
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That is because it doesn't the trinity is man made |
Posted By: hugoestr
Date Posted: 21-Feb-2006 at 16:06
Stop trying to weasle your way out of this one. The problem is that you only want a certain category of people to answer you. That is the problem. Maybe I should just post an annoucement saying that any of those exclusive polls are null under intellectual forums. That everyone is allowed--No, encouraged--to participate in any poll that excludes participation. ------------- |
Posted By: Komnenos
Date Posted: 21-Feb-2006 at 20:06
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As a non believer, I can't answer the original question, but as the issue of the exact nature of the trinity has also played an important role in the evolvement of the Christian religion and the nations it came to dominate, it's far more interesting anyway to investigate how the concept came to life.
The rise of the trinitarian concept be seen as the struggle of a self-declared monotheistic religion firstly with the problem that the proclamation of the founder of the faith, Jesus, to the son of its only god presented, and secondly as the struggle with the residues of polytheistic religions in its believers that made the very idea of Monotheism a difficult to understand concept. Isn't the trinity something of an easy opt-out, a clever contrivance that should soften the sudden intellectual blow of Monotheism to a people that were used to a whole Olympus of gods and couldn't cope very well with just one. After all, it took two centuries of theological speculations and heated debates to come up with an official model that explained that whilst having three distinctve deities they were actually only one. And the fact that there still are deviant views on the nature of trinity might explain why even the Nicaen creed wasn't still satisfying enough to clarify the whole concept. ------------- [IMG]http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i137/komnenos/crosses1.jpg"> |
Posted By: pikeshot1600
Date Posted: 21-Feb-2006 at 20:25
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I don't know that polytheism was a mass religious phenomenon, but I think it was more strongly adhered to by Classical elites. The easier to understand concept of monotheism probably assisted in expanding both Judeo-Christian and Islamic faiths after a certain point in both their developments. Judaism had some sense of a Messiah, who some saw in Christ, and who would have had to have been human in form to be accepted. I do not know what concept of "soul" Judaism has, but the Trinity seems to proceed from Judeo-Christian concepts of one omniscient God, a Messiah (or a prophet) and the soul or spirit that lives on after physical death. The Trinity is strong in Christian belief, and there may be certain analogies in Islam. As a Catholic school kid, I know what I was taught.
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Posted By: Maju
Date Posted: 21-Feb-2006 at 22:42
But more than Trinity and the rescue of the Dyonisian concept of resurrection, now under an ascetic banner, what definitively helped the cause of Christinaity was the quasi-divinization of Mary. It was a demotion (another one) of the role of women in the classical European pantheons but it was a promotion of the role of women in the super-Patriarchal Jewish scheme. I believe that, no matter what Protestants may think now, without the cult of Mary, Christianism would have never advanced, specially in Western Europe.
Messianism, as have been mentioned in other topics is rather a contamination of Judaism by Zoroastrism. Primitive Judaism had nothing of the like. Greek religion also has saviors: Prometeus, Chiron and, specially, Dyonisos. Dyonisos (assimilated by classicals to Hindu Shiva) seemed called to replace Zeus naturally, as he had triumphed over death and ascended to divinity on his own might and right. In a sense, Resurrecting Jesus is an ascetic version of Dyonisos. -------------
NO GOD, NO MASTER! |
Posted By: Byzantine Emperor
Date Posted: 21-Feb-2006 at 22:48
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Why do you keep jumping his case about this? Eaglecap posted a companion thread to this one inviting non-believers in the Trinity to post their remarks. Besides, there is a good discussion and dialogue going on in here that has not degenerated into a mudslinging battle. ------------- http://www.allempires.net/forum_posts.asp?TID=12713 - Late Byzantine Military http://www.allempires.net/forum_posts.asp?TID=17337 - Ottoman perceptions of the Americas |
Posted By: Akolouthos
Date Posted: 24-Feb-2006 at 03:33
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I voted for it. I believe in it. It was decided by the Fathers of Nicea and Constantinople. I do not, however, condemn those who disagree with it. While I do believe that they are wrong--very wrong--, I believe that too much anger already exists. -Akolouthos |
Posted By: Vivek Sharma
Date Posted: 11-Oct-2006 at 07:20
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The doctrin of trinity also exists in other religions, from which it was derived in Christianity probably
------------- PATTON NAGAR, Brains win over Brawn |
Posted By: The Gypo
Date Posted: 11-Oct-2006 at 08:01
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lol...sunday school comes in handy sometimes... in Coptic Orthodoxy, the Holy Trinity is the co-essential concept of God: The Father : The Pantokrator The Son : Logos and Saviour The Holy Spirit: The Paraclete (comforter, spirit dwelling in those of the faith) We recite the Nicean creed in every mass and prayer...it will describe it better than i will " Trully we beleive in One God, the Almighty God the Father, maker of heaven and earth, of all things visible and invisible. We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ the only begotten Son of God, born of the Father before all ages; light out of light, true God out of true God, begotten not made; consubstantial with the Father, through whom all things came into being. He descended from heaven for us and for our salvation, and was incarnated from the Holy Spirit and of the Virgin Mary, and became man. He was crucified for us at the time of Pontius Pilate. He suffered and was buried; arose on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures; He ascended to the heavens and sat at the right hand of the Father; He shall also come in His glory to judge the living and the dead, of whose kingdom there will be no end. Trully we beleive in the Holy Spirit, the Life-Giving Lord, who proceeds from the Father, we worship and glorify Him together with the Father and the Son, who spoke in the prophets. And in one, holy, universal and Apostolic Church; we acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins. And we look for the resurrection of the dead and the life of the world to come. Amen." ------------- http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y72/GypoCichlid/gyposig021.jpg - http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y72/GypoCichlid/gyposig021.jpg |