Print Page | Close Window

Who Were the Trojans?

Printed From: History Community ~ All Empires
Category: Regional History or Period History
Forum Name: Ancient Mediterranean and Europe
Forum Discription: Greece, Macedon, Rome and other cultures such as Celtic and Germanic tribes
URL: http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=8761
Printed Date: 28-Apr-2024 at 12:53
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 9.56a - http://www.webwizforums.com


Topic: Who Were the Trojans?
Posted By: philiptheuniter
Subject: Who Were the Trojans?
Date Posted: 31-Jan-2006 at 20:06
I am interested to know about the Trojans. Who were they? Were they a Greek city-state in Asia Minor? Another group? What was their language? History? Are their descedents a group today? Someone here suggested they fled and are now Swedes. This sounds very far fetched (but who knows for sure? Highly doubtful though). Just curious really. A peice of history that everyone has heard of, but few know anything about.

-------------
we are united by the same language, the same blood and the same visions
Alexander addressing dead Hellenes
http://www.macedoniaontheweb.com/forum/
http://www.thegreatalexander.com/alexander-forum/



Replies:
Posted By: Yiannis
Date Posted: 01-Feb-2006 at 03:29

Try the "search" button in this forum. You will find plenty of material to read, to which you can comment and ask spesific questions later.

 



-------------
The basis of a democratic state is liberty. Aristotle, Politics

Those that can give up essential liberty to obtain a temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. Benjamin Franklin


Posted By: philiptheuniter
Date Posted: 01-Feb-2006 at 17:30
Thanks. I'll defiantely look at it.

-------------
we are united by the same language, the same blood and the same visions
Alexander addressing dead Hellenes
http://www.macedoniaontheweb.com/forum/
http://www.thegreatalexander.com/alexander-forum/


Posted By: Matheos
Date Posted: 11-Feb-2006 at 10:26

From the reading the Iliad I see the Trojans & Greeks worshipped the same Gods, spoke the same language and had common bloodlines.  Notable examples would surface on the field of battle on occassion. 

Sounds like Trojans were in fact Greeks.  Having been defeated they fled to found Rome (Aeneas)



Posted By: Maju
Date Posted: 11-Feb-2006 at 10:50
Originally posted by Matheos

From the reading the Iliad I see the Trojans & Greeks worshipped the same Gods, spoke the same language and had common bloodlines.  Notable examples would surface on the field of battle on occassion. 

Sounds like Trojans were in fact Greeks.  Having been defeated they fled to found Rome (Aeneas)



Do you think?

The parallel of gods would be explained by synchretism, something that is attested in all pre-Christian Greek history. The same language seems rather a trick of the narration, but I don't see why would you be sure about that. Bloodlines could be more revealing but you must illustrate me about it?

Were Trojans related to Myceneans, Athenians or who?


-------------

NO GOD, NO MASTER!


Posted By: RomiosArktos
Date Posted: 11-Feb-2006 at 13:20
Trojans must have been a very close to the Greeks people.
Perhaps there is some pelasgian connection,maybe Trojans and Greeks assimilated the same Pelasgian substratum.
As far as the founding of Rome is concerned there are other theories that say that the first inhabitants of the palatine hill in Rome were Arcadian(Pelasgian) settlers.
I think the Trojans and the Greeks were ''step brothers'',same ''pelasgian'' substratum
This is a hypothesis or just science fiction


Posted By: Maju
Date Posted: 11-Feb-2006 at 16:16
Pelasgian is a "catchall" term... very diffuse... but it's clear that Troy belonged to the the Aegean area and so did Early Greeks. Yet it seems that Greeks were then the newcomers and Trojans instead had been there leading the "local" civilization since 3500 BCE.

The legend of Aeneas founding Rome doesn't sound realistic to me, unless you place Aeneas as founder of the Etruscan civilization (and not Rome) instead. There it fits very well: Lemnians speaking Etruscan, Aegean ("Turk") genetics in Etruscan aristocracy, Aegean ("Minoan") aesthetics of Etruscans...


-------------

NO GOD, NO MASTER!


Posted By: RomiosArktos
Date Posted: 11-Feb-2006 at 16:51
Well,about the founding of Rome I tend to believe more what is written by Dionisios of Alicarnassus in his work,Roman archeology.There he says that the first people that founded a community in Rome were the Arcadians led by  Oinotros,son of king Lycaon and grandson of Pelasgos.This happened about seven generations before the Trojan war.In Arcadia there was a city called Pallation and this city was considered metropolis of Rome by many  emperors.
I tend also to believe that the Hellenes of the classical times were a mix of those who had come from the north? and the autochtonous.So when I say pelasgians I mean the autochtonous population, ancestors of the classical time Greeks.
In Arcadia it was widespread  the worship of a lycantropic god(possibly ''pelasgian'')  which later became the Lyceos Zeus.(in greek lycos=wolf pronunciation li'kos)
This reminds me of the myth about the she-wolf etc.
The Arcadians were considered the most '''autochtonous'' among the Greeks.

 


Posted By: Maju
Date Posted: 11-Feb-2006 at 17:36
The question is that classical Rome has a clear date of foundation (not that of Romulus) but that of Tarchinus I, who drained the forum allowing the city to exist as such.

Still they have recently found some material under the forum... but this must belong to an earlier pre-Roman (pre-Latin) period.


-------------

NO GOD, NO MASTER!


Posted By: dorian
Date Posted: 12-Feb-2006 at 07:05

If you read the Iliad, the sense that you may have is that the Trojan War was kinda "civil" war. It is very possible that there would have been a strong genetic connection between the Greeks and the Trojans if we don't want to call the latter, pure Greeks.



-------------
"We are Macedonians but we are Slav Macedonians.That's who we are!We have no connection to Alexander the Greek and his Macedonia�Our ancestors came here in the 5th and 6th century" Kiro Gligorov FYROM


Posted By: Maju
Date Posted: 12-Feb-2006 at 16:41
I don't have that sense of "civil war": it is the war of a national coalition (Greeks) versus an alien powerful city and their numerous allies (who aren't Greek).


-------------

NO GOD, NO MASTER!


Posted By: dorian
Date Posted: 12-Feb-2006 at 19:53
Greeks didn't confront Trojans as a foreign enemy.

-------------
"We are Macedonians but we are Slav Macedonians.That's who we are!We have no connection to Alexander the Greek and his Macedonia�Our ancestors came here in the 5th and 6th century" Kiro Gligorov FYROM


Posted By: kotumeyil
Date Posted: 12-Feb-2006 at 20:01
Iliad was written much later than the Trojan war so I don't think it reflects the real ethnic composition of the Trojans.

-------------
[IMG]http://www.maksimum.com/yemeicme/images/haber/raki.jpg">


Posted By: Alkiviades
Date Posted: 13-Feb-2006 at 03:30

When the Iliad was written, the pre-classical definition of "barbarian" (varvaros) was not fully defined and formulated yet. There is more then just a passing sympathy of Homer for the Trojans, but nobody calls them "Greeks", although a strong (cultural) connection is not only implied, but vigorously outspoken.

Althouhg, one must note that the Iliad presents the clash between Greeks and Trojans as a sorts of clash between "Europe" and "Asia", so there is a rather firm notion of the Trojans being "Asian", non-Greeks.



-------------
If you wanna play arrogant with me, you better have some very solid facts to back up that arrogance, or I'll tear you to pieces


Posted By: kotumeyil
Date Posted: 13-Feb-2006 at 03:35
Homer was Anatolian so his sympathy for Trojans is understandable.

-------------
[IMG]http://www.maksimum.com/yemeicme/images/haber/raki.jpg">


Posted By: dorian
Date Posted: 13-Feb-2006 at 06:43
Homer was Anatolian Greek! Not Anatolian in general.

-------------
"We are Macedonians but we are Slav Macedonians.That's who we are!We have no connection to Alexander the Greek and his Macedonia�Our ancestors came here in the 5th and 6th century" Kiro Gligorov FYROM


Posted By: Maju
Date Posted: 13-Feb-2006 at 07:38
Originally posted by dorian

Greeks didn't confront Trojans as a foreign enemy.


I think they did. Else, why so many diferent Greek cities and clans join for that war? Because it is the "sacred" alliance of Greeks (led by Argos-Mycenae) against a rival. A rival that precisely controls a most strategic passage.

Yet Trojans are not alien to the Aegean world... Greeks wouldn't percieve them as "foreigners" in the sense they could percieve Persians later but in the sense they could percieve Romans, for instance: someone with whom they have a strong cultural bond despite of being of diferent ethnicity.


-------------

NO GOD, NO MASTER!


Posted By: Alkiviades
Date Posted: 13-Feb-2006 at 08:02
Originally posted by Maju


Yet Trojans are not alien to the Aegean world... Greeks wouldn't percieve them as "foreigners" in the sense they could percieve Persians later but in the sense they could percieve Romans, for instance: someone with whom they have a strong cultural bond despite of being of diferent ethnicity.


This is precisely what I had in mind! There is more than just a passing afilliation, but the borders of "Danaos" (Greek) and "Trojan" are rather well-defined, in terms of ethnicity, although culturally they practically shared a common "Aegean" culture.

BTW Kotu, in all Greek literature (specifically the numerous tragedies with a "Trojan" theme) the Trojans are kinda "the good guys" and the Greeks the blasphemus, "bad guys". The Trojans are defending their homes, while the Greeks perform sacriledge after sacriledge in their effort to bring Troy down, and their conduct after they got Troy is painted with the worst possible colors by every Greek author.

I think ancient Greeks - as Isocrates puts it  - perceived culture as superior to blood. I think it is a sign of civilization, in some aspects. Also, Homer was undisputably Greek (not even half-Greek, as Herodotus) from Anatolian lands of Greek Ionia. What do you mean by "Anatolian"?


-------------
If you wanna play arrogant with me, you better have some very solid facts to back up that arrogance, or I'll tear you to pieces


Posted By: kotumeyil
Date Posted: 13-Feb-2006 at 08:47
I'm not disputing his Greekness but he was born in Smyrna, and no doubt he visited Troia. He knew how Anatolian people lived, how the land influenced their life-style, etc. and had sympathy to them more than to those of the Greeks of mainland Greece. That's my humble opinion of course...

-------------
[IMG]http://www.maksimum.com/yemeicme/images/haber/raki.jpg">


Posted By: Isokrates
Date Posted: 13-Feb-2006 at 08:59
Based on mythology and Homer's text we do see an undoubtable connection, as mentioned, religion and of course the names that are poure Hellinic and not Hellinized which could indicate foreign (to them) origins. A simple read of any text clearly indicates the difference in which the 'kin' from the 'foreigners' are depicted.
But Homer was a poet not a historian, so obviously his main interest wasn't depicting the historic issues of the battle, which is why his whole work is centered on Achilles choice of immortality..

The 'Hellen' part of the story, is a mere symbolization that we are still unable to understand. We know that prior to this expedition, Herakles had sacked Troy and killed everyone exept Priam who later became king.. so probably this war was all about the geographic position of the site, since we know of expeditions and connections of th 'Acheans' with regions as far as Georgia prior to the T.W..

If we look into the cultural elements presented, we find the interesting  fact that the 'Troyans' preformed a sacrifice to Poseidon. Today based on the finds of Linear B' tablets, we know that 'po-se-da-o-ne : Ðïóåéäáþíåé = exactly as seen in Homeric texts' was the greatest of all figures for the  island populations of the Aegean, most probably due to their close relation with the sea..

What I also noticed is that the Hittites are mentioned.. But the Hittites according to all souces occupied areas in Central Anatolia, and there are finds that suggest an alliance rather than a kin relation..

Here is a map of Hittite influence(borders) from the Uni. of Texas..





I would like to know how we can speak of 'Turk' genes when Turkish scholars themselves agree that there is no Turish gene available in its pure form (obviously relating to Central Asia) nor was there any trace of Turks in the area prior to the 8th (probably) cent ??






-------------
"When I was a child I spoke as a child I understood as a child I thought as a
child; but when I became a man I put away childish things."


Posted By: Isokrates
Date Posted: 13-Feb-2006 at 09:02
Originally posted by kotumeyil

I'm not disputing his Greekness but he was born in Smyrna, and no doubt he visited Troia. He knew how Anatolian people lived, how the land influenced their life-style, etc. and had sympathy to them more than to those of the Greeks of mainland Greece. That's my humble opinion of course...


Actually his exact place of birth is still strongly debated, but I would like to know how you came to the conclusion that he was more 'sympathetic' towards Anatolians that to other Hellinic 'tribes' of the mainland, since this is actually the first time I've heard anything similar..


-------------
"When I was a child I spoke as a child I understood as a child I thought as a
child; but when I became a man I put away childish things."


Posted By: kotumeyil
Date Posted: 13-Feb-2006 at 09:22

I don't know why you brought about the issue of Turks?

As for the "sympathy" I read that in the preface of Iliad. Of course, as a Greek he praised the heroic character of the Danaos but his wailing for Hector and the Troia is the most affecting part of Iliad. This makes me to think in such a way.

On the other hand, why would Trojans ally with other Anatolian peoples against their own kind?



-------------
[IMG]http://www.maksimum.com/yemeicme/images/haber/raki.jpg">


Posted By: dorian
Date Posted: 13-Feb-2006 at 09:48

You know in Ancient Greece there were many examples of coalition between some greek tribes against other greeks without thinking about fighting their own kind.

While you're reading the Iliad sometimes you may get confused for some persons whether they belong to the greek side or the trojan. That's because Trojans did have a lot in common with Greeks (names, tradition, religion, language). Nevertheless I don't say that Trojans were pure Greeks (there is no way to find it out) but they may have had a strong connection with Greeks, cultural and maybe genetic.



-------------
"We are Macedonians but we are Slav Macedonians.That's who we are!We have no connection to Alexander the Greek and his Macedonia�Our ancestors came here in the 5th and 6th century" Kiro Gligorov FYROM


Posted By: Isokrates
Date Posted: 13-Feb-2006 at 10:52
Well there was some reference to 'Turk' genetics, but maybe I got it wrong and went off topic..

I really don't think that Homer shows sympathy for one over the other, actually, I think that Hector, while undoubtably one of the central characters in the whole plot, is praised in order to appear as a worthy apponent to Achilles, who was a demigod and allegedly superior to all humans. But I really don't see him giving more emphasis to the death of Hector in comparison to Patroklos..

As for the alliance, the very same question could apply to those that 'sided' with the Persians, or why was there a Athens-Sparta war..etc.
Power and politics..


-------------
"When I was a child I spoke as a child I understood as a child I thought as a
child; but when I became a man I put away childish things."


Posted By: Perseas
Date Posted: 13-Feb-2006 at 13:51

Originally posted by philiptheuniter

I am interested to know about the Trojans. Who were they? Were they a Greek city-state in Asia Minor? Another group? What was their language? History? Are their descedents a group today? Someone here suggested they fled and are now Swedes. This sounds very far fetched (but who knows for sure? Highly doubtful though). Just curious really. A peice of history that everyone has heard of, but few know anything about.

You can find one of the possible theories linking Trojans with Luwians in my post here.

  http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=150&KW=perseas&PN=0&TPN=2 - http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=150& KW=perseas&PN=0&TPN=2

Now, as far with possible links they had with Greeks lets have a look at the royal Trojan's family list of names.

Priam - not a greek name. The only link this name could have with being greek is if we take its Aeolic form which would sound as Perramos.

Laomedon - He was Priam's father name and its surely a greek name.

Hecabe - not a Greek name.

Hector - a greek name, having the same form as Nestor.

Paris -  not a greek name. But Paris had also a second name, Alexandros which is a greek name.

Helenos - greek name

Deiphobos - greek name

Polydoros - greek name...Polydoros was the name also of a son of Cadmos.

Politis - greek name

Laodice - greek name...also it was the name of Niobe's mother in greek mythology.

Kassandra - greek name

Polyxena - greek name

Antiphos - greek name...also this name was shared by a greek commander who participated in Trojan war and was killed later by the cyclops Polyphemus.

now from all these we can have the following final two options..

i) They had greek names,

ii) Their names were changed by bards from foreign to greek.



-------------
A mathematician is a person who thinks that if there are supposed to be three people in a room, but five come out, then two more must enter the room in order for it to be empty.


Posted By: RomiosArktos
Date Posted: 14-Feb-2006 at 06:56
According to mythology,after the destruction of Troy,Helenos and Cassandra and some other Trojans were carried captives to Epirus by king Neoptolemos of the Molossi.There they founded a city,the new Ilion in Haonia(southern Albania).Interestingly, the Haones who were a greek epirot tribe were considered  to be of pure pelasgian origin.
I think Paris can be a greek name.There are many ancient greek names ending in -aris like Falaris for example.
Can the name Priamos be a title rather than a name?Could it be linked with the roman word primus?



Posted By: Maju
Date Posted: 14-Feb-2006 at 10:03

now from all these we can have the following final two options..

i) They had greek names,

ii) Their names were changed by bards from foreign to greek.


Greeks adopted their names?

That seems likely in the case of Alexandros, which is a historical name of a ruler of Wilusa (Troy), according to Hittite records.

Notice that the Illiad was so important on Greek culture that surely many people took names from it.

Also, some names could come from a common Aegean background.

I don't think the answer is so simple. What makes a name "Greek" in your list, Perseas?



-------------

NO GOD, NO MASTER!


Posted By: Alkiviades
Date Posted: 14-Feb-2006 at 10:55

the Greeknes of the names is derived by their linguistic root and by their meaning. Examples:

Laomedon -  From the Greek words "Laos" and "Medon". This cannot be an adoption or a transliteration, because it is a fundamentally Greek name

Hector - a greek root 

Alexandros -  another composite word: Alexo + andras. Both Greek roots, forming a Greek name with the meaning "defender of men".

Helenos -greek root (probably related to the word Helen (Greek) from the times the Greeks were not called Hellenes but Danaoi.

Deiphobos - greek composite name: By the prefix "Dei" (bi- twol-) and the word phobos (fear).

Polydoros - composite Greek: Poly and doro

Politis - greek root (Polis)

Laodice - greek composite name (Laos + Dike)

Kassandra - this one is disputed as the linguistic root is concerned, although it is adopted as a Greek name even from the Homeric times, especially in northern Greece.

Polyxena - composite name: Poly + Xene

...and so on.

So, names like the above could not (with the exeption of Kassandra) have been "adopted" by the Greeks, because they are fundamentally Greek. I still insist on a common Aegean culture (and maybe even ethnical background, at least partly) of the two people.



-------------
If you wanna play arrogant with me, you better have some very solid facts to back up that arrogance, or I'll tear you to pieces


Posted By: Perseas
Date Posted: 14-Feb-2006 at 11:17

Originally posted by RomiosArktos

According to mythology,after the destruction of Troy,Helenos and Cassandra and some other Trojans were carried captives to Epirus by king Neoptolemos of the Molossi.There they founded a city,the new Ilion in Haonia(southern Albania).Interestingly, the Haones who were a greek epirot tribe were considered  to be of pure pelasgian origin.
I think Paris can be a greek name.There are many ancient greek names ending in -aris like Falaris for example.
Can the name Priamos be a title rather than a name?Could it be linked with the roman word primus?

Cassandra was taken as slave from Agamemnon. I think you mean Andromache.



-------------
A mathematician is a person who thinks that if there are supposed to be three people in a room, but five come out, then two more must enter the room in order for it to be empty.


Posted By: Perseas
Date Posted: 14-Feb-2006 at 11:29
Originally posted by Maju


now from all these we can have the following final two options..

i) They had greek names,

ii) Their names were changed by bards from foreign to greek.


Greeks adopted their names?

That seems likely in the case of Alexandros, which is a historical name of a ruler of Wilusa (Troy), according to Hittite records.

Notice that the Illiad was so important on Greek culture that surely many people took names from it.

Also, some names could come from a common Aegean background.

I don't think the answer is so simple. What makes a name "Greek" in your list, Perseas?

From the point that they are mostly meaningful in greek language and their compositions.

For example Hektor is derived from ‘åêôùñ (hektor) "holding fast", ultimately from å÷ù (echo) meaning "to hold, to possess".

Same with Êáóóáíäñá (Kassandra), which possibly meant "shining upon man", derived from êåêáóìáé (kekasmai) "to shine" and 'áíçñ' (aner) "man" genitive áíäñïò (andros).

Its known Greeks had a tedency to regularize foreign names. If we take as example the Achaemenids royal names we have...

- The name Artaxerxes is the regularization of the original Persian name Artakhshathra.

- The name Xerxes is the regularization of the original Persian name Khshayarsha

But on the contrary to the above Trojan royal names, neither of these Persian names have any meaning in Greek language.



-------------
A mathematician is a person who thinks that if there are supposed to be three people in a room, but five come out, then two more must enter the room in order for it to be empty.


Posted By: RomiosArktos
Date Posted: 14-Feb-2006 at 16:05
Originally posted by Perseas

Cassandra was taken as slave from Agamemnon. I think you mean Andromache.


You are right,Perseas
I took Andromache for Cassandra.

As far as the names are concerned,I agree  that all the ancient greek names that were given from  father to  son meant someting in the Greek language .This is how you can tell if a name is a greek name or not.




Posted By: Augustus
Date Posted: 14-Feb-2006 at 16:34

Something that dorian mentioned: Homer does praise Hector,but not because of his origin or due to the fact that he is "Anatolian".Homer was an epic poet,which means that he praises the virtuus,the "aristoi".Hector was no doubt the greatest troyan warrior,so the poet could not leave him out of the story.

As for the coming of the Troyans,they couldn't be Greek the way that Spatans,Athenians or the ionic cities of .. Ionia are. The first greek migration is dated in around 1100 B.C., with the coming of the Dorians. The prosperous city of Troy and the war as well happened before the greek tribes massively moved to minor Asia. Perhaps they were a pre-hellenic branch..



-------------
Sed primum vivere...


Posted By: Isokrates
Date Posted: 15-Feb-2006 at 11:36
Actually the first 'migration' is related to the myth of Jason and the Argonauts to Georgia, known to the ancients as Kolchis, depicted in Linear B' tablets as ko-ki-da. We know of several Mycenean finds, mainly swords, dated to 1500BC

-------------
"When I was a child I spoke as a child I understood as a child I thought as a
child; but when I became a man I put away childish things."


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 15-Feb-2006 at 23:29
who were the trojans?
This is an area of great interest for me, as well as the Hittites, Minoan Crete, Mycenae, the Sea peoples, and the Philistines

a couple of sites to peruse about the trojans that has some good reading,.

http://www.thetroyguide.com/id7.html
claims the Trojans spoke an Indo-European language which was widely spoken in different part of Anatolia, called Luvian.

http://www.lhhpaleo.religionstatistics.net/LHH%20anadolun. html
mentions that the Leleges and the Cilicians were so closely related to the Trojans

and also "
The Scamander River had as son Teucer, his daughter, Batia married Dardanus [the Dardanians were an Illyrian tribe], which came from

Samothrace and founded Troy. The grandson of Dardanus was Tros, which had as son Ilus II (which re-founded Troy and gave his own
name to the city). Ilus' son was Laomedon, and Laomedon's son was Priam. The father and the son of this king, Paris, will be defeated by
the Greeks after raping Hellen (action that humiliated the Greeks and menaced since he would have inherited Hellen's kingdom)."



-------------


Posted By: YusakuJon3
Date Posted: 03-Mar-2006 at 21:57
There's one more thing that I think needs to be pointed out along the lines of the ancient Greeks' custom of "Hellenizing" foreign names, and that is the fact that they superimposed their gods and goddesses over those worshipped by the outsiders they encountered.  For instance, the Phoenician god Baal was regarded in the time of the conquest by Alexander the Great as being Heracles, while ancient text specifically mention temples to Zeus and Demeter in Assyria which would've been for Marduk and Ishtar.  Indeed, they even considered the Temple at Jerusalem to be dedicated to Zeus and even wanted to convert it to such a purpose later on, much to the alarm of the Israelites.

Therefore, we have one possible reason for Homer referring to the people of Troy as worshipping the same gods as the Greeks of Mycenae and Argos...


-------------
"There you go again!"

-- President Ronald W. Reagan (directed towards reporters at a White House press conference, mid-1980s)


Posted By: Maju
Date Posted: 03-Mar-2006 at 23:06
Originally posted by Alkiviades

the Greeknes of the names is derived by their linguistic root and by their meaning. Examples:

Laomedon -  From the Greek words "Laos" and "Medon". This cannot be an adoption or a transliteration, because it is a fundamentally Greek name

Hector - a greek root 

Alexandros -  another composite word: Alexo + andras. Both Greek roots, forming a Greek name with the meaning "defender of men".

Helenos -greek root (probably related to the word Helen (Greek) from the times the Greeks were not called Hellenes but Danaoi.

Deiphobos - greek composite name: By the prefix "Dei" (bi- twol-) and the word phobos (fear).

Polydoros - composite Greek: Poly and doro

Politis - greek root (Polis)

Laodice - greek composite name (Laos + Dike)

Kassandra - this one is disputed as the linguistic root is concerned, although it is adopted as a Greek name even from the Homeric times, especially in northern Greece.

Polyxena - composite name: Poly + Xene

...and so on.

So, names like the above could not (with the exeption of Kassandra) have been "adopted" by the Greeks, because they are fundamentally Greek. I still insist on a common Aegean culture (and maybe even ethnical background, at least partly) of the two people.



That's interesting. Specially because the name Alexandros (refering to a Wilusan king) appears in Hittite records, so it could not be mere "Hellenization" of foreign characters.

Btw, what does Hektor mean in Greek? I'm particularly iterested because my Italian family claimed ascendancy from that Trojan hero (of course one of those heraldic nonsenses... )


-------------

NO GOD, NO MASTER!


Posted By: Perseas
Date Posted: 04-Mar-2006 at 04:20

It is already mentioned in one of the above posts.

Hektor is derived from ‘åêôùñ (hektor) "holding fast", ultimately from "å÷ù" (echo) meaning "to hold, to possess".



-------------
A mathematician is a person who thinks that if there are supposed to be three people in a room, but five come out, then two more must enter the room in order for it to be empty.


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 04-Mar-2006 at 13:32

The same question was asked of Victor Hanson.  He replied that the Trojans were a Hittite/Semetic peoples and seperate and distinct from Greeks.  But that they shared cultural influences.  His view is somewhat contreversial.

"From archaeological and philological evidence Trojans were probably some sort of early Semitic people and their language akin to Hittite."



Posted By: edgewaters
Date Posted: 13-Mar-2006 at 23:08

I think it's a shame we try to fit all these ancient groups into our neat little categories. It leads to alot of misconceptions, like people envisioning unitary polities that never existed. Alot of groups in the ancient world lay in fringe areas and were hybrid cultures unto themselves, comprising crossover areas from one culture to the next. The Trojans were likely one of these groups, bearing ties both to the Greeks and the Hittites. The Greeks may have considered them civilized and thus would write of them in a different manner than they would of peoples they considered barbaric, just as they wrote differently about the Egyptians than they did about the Persians. As far as naming Trojan deities as Greek deities, well, they did this all the time - they even tried to identify the Hebrew god as Zeus.

The Trojans may not have even been an identifiable, unitary culture of any kind. Homer says that they spoke many languages, and had no common language. Troy may just have been a site that grew due to its trade importance, and different mercantile interests - rather than a unitary cultural or tribal/clan influence - may have been the factor behind its growth. How can we rule out this possibility? I think sometimes in searching for the origins of a people in a particular site, we may be misleading ourselves by thinking there is going to be a single answer.



Posted By: Maju
Date Posted: 14-Mar-2006 at 09:36
That idea of Trojans being a multicural society sounds cool but a little too far fetched, in my opinion, for the typical clanic organization we always find in pre-modern societies. In any case, they would have an "oficial language" whch would be used when joining the city assembly or council... a society needs some central elements like these, no matter how flexible or cosmopolitan they were. 

-------------

NO GOD, NO MASTER!


Posted By: AlbinoAlien
Date Posted: 14-Mar-2006 at 11:02
Well, if we all look at the map of the mediterrainien, we see that Troy is located on the Hellespont. this is extremly close to greek lands, we're talking very few miles in sea faring. perhaps there was a un-recorded greek migration over the Hellespont? seems possible to me....

-------------
people are the emotions of other people


(im not albino..or pale!)

.....or an alien..


Posted By: Maju
Date Posted: 17-Mar-2006 at 23:00
Possibility is not reality. Reality is only one among many possibilities.

While it's clear that Greeks took over that region in the classical period, in the Mycenean period it is still not clear how much if any part of Anatolia reeks had colonized.

Notice also that Troy was standing there since c. 3500 BCE, while Greeks arrived much later. My guess is that while Troy and Mycenean Greeks were obviously interacting, the very destiny that Greek consolidation had fro Troy was its total destruction as narrated in the Illyad.


-------------

NO GOD, NO MASTER!


Posted By: St. Francis of Assisi
Date Posted: 17-Mar-2006 at 23:08
Trojans? I recall reading somewhere that they werer closely related to the Pelasgians. Nevertheless, they must have had contact with the Mycenaeans, and it would be a stretch to say they were "pure Pelasgians".




-------------
Cheers, and Good Mental Health,
Herr Saltzman


Posted By: gjergj kastrioti
Date Posted: 02-Mar-2016 at 20:20
THE Trojans were pure dardanians ilirian race 


Posted By: Centrix Vigilis
Date Posted: 02-Mar-2016 at 21:26
And your evidence to verify; if not substantiate this is....?

-------------
"Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence"

S. T. Friedman


Pilger's law: 'If it's been officially denied, then it's probably true'



Posted By: Centrix Vigilis
Date Posted: 03-Mar-2016 at 18:53
As I thought.

-------------
"Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence"

S. T. Friedman


Pilger's law: 'If it's been officially denied, then it's probably true'




Print Page | Close Window

Bulletin Board Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 9.56a - http://www.webwizforums.com
Copyright ©2001-2009 Web Wiz - http://www.webwizguide.com