Can armenians reclaim eastern anatolia??
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URL: http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=8724
Printed Date: 13-May-2024 at 12:07
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Topic: Can armenians reclaim eastern anatolia??
Posted By: cebeci
Subject: Can armenians reclaim eastern anatolia??
Date Posted: 30-Jan-2006 at 14:15
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it has been ample topics on whether the genocide took place or not... and everyone defends its nation let's start form the end: assume that turkish government accepts the armenian genocide and gives a political apology what consequences will it have? do armenians have automatic right to reclaim the eastern anatolia as a compensation of that genocide or will this debate cools down and genocide will be remembered just like holocaust is? without clear-cut political and territorial advantages would armenians support this incident?? ------------- history is just a repetation of itself |
Replies:
Posted By: azimuth
Date Posted: 30-Jan-2006 at 14:41
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oh this belongs to intellectual discussion forum.
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Posted By: Zagros
Date Posted: 30-Jan-2006 at 15:19
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I think there is more to this event than what we are led to believe... There should be an independent and impartial investigation into exactl what happened. But i am really sick of the West and its double standards. ------------- |
Posted By: DayI
Date Posted: 30-Jan-2006 at 15:22
------------- Bu mıntıka'nın Dayı'sı http://imageshack.us - [IMG - http://www.allempires.com/forum/uploads/DayI/2006-03-17_164450_bscap021.jpg - |
Posted By: Zagros
Date Posted: 30-Jan-2006 at 15:26
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Small pieces of course I think the British should recognise their genocide of Kurds in the 20s when Winston Churchill savagely ordered the murder of thousands of Kurds by chemical gases. Winston Churchill should be tarnished as the ruthlessblood thirsty villain he was... Gallipoli and the deaths of hundreds of thousands of allies and ottomans in a pointless operation was also his doing. ------------- |
Posted By: Mila
Date Posted: 30-Jan-2006 at 15:28
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It depends on Turkey's national laws, and if this
process is conducted outside of Turkey - on international law. But it is possible. Next month Bosnia and Herzegovina's suit against Serbia and Montenegro begins. The objective is to find Serbia and Montenegro guilty of genocide and lesser inclusive crimes and, when that happens, the Republika Srpska of Bosnia and Herzegovina (The area ethnically cleased of non-Serbs during the war) will be abolished. So it has to be possible. ------------- |
Posted By: cebeci
Date Posted: 30-Jan-2006 at 15:38
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do you mean that internataional treaties, NATO and UN being the first, will force turkey to reopen its east to armenians and in the future (NOT REMOTE I THINK) allow armenia to expand to near kayseri?? is there any prior example of such an incident in international affairs? ------------- history is just a repetation of itself |
Posted By: Constantine XI
Date Posted: 30-Jan-2006 at 17:10
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Turkey will never have to reopen its eastern border to the Armenians, because there is basically no force which can make them. Basically, countries do what is in their own best interests unless outside pressure is brought to bear on them. I don't know of any force which will commit itself to forcing Turkey to give up big slices of territory, I don't think the Armenians will get back any territory. ------------- |
Posted By: Zagros
Date Posted: 30-Jan-2006 at 17:18
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I don't think there are enough Armenians to populate it anyway... ------------- |
Posted By: ArmenianSurvival
Date Posted: 30-Jan-2006 at 19:23
You hit the point right on the spot. I fully agree that this is the only way Armenia will ever regain its western territories, as Turkey (or any nation for that matter) would obviously never give up land on its own. Its mostly populated by Kurds now, anyway. Its unlikely that the lands will be returned, but not impossible. ------------- Mass Murderers Agree: Gun Control Works! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Van_Resistance Քիչ ենք բայց Հայ ենք։ |
Posted By: Maju
Date Posted: 30-Jan-2006 at 20:44
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The only thing that will allow Armenians with a EU passport (maybe 2 or
3 millions) to move and resettle Turk Armenia will be Turkey entering
EU. It will probaly help many other (retired) EU citizens from the
north to move to the western and southern coast, inceasing the cost of
living and changing the local demography. Greeks of Anatolian ascent,
fo course, would also be able to return to their former homelands
freely, as will the Turks of Greece origin if that's what they wish.
And many Turks and Kurds will have easier to migrate to Germany and
other European countries as well. The Genocide issue is more about clearing up the past. Making peace and honoring the dead. Though you never know, considering Israel is claiming a land that lost 2000 years ago  ------------- 
NO GOD, NO MASTER! |
Posted By: Paul
Date Posted: 30-Jan-2006 at 21:00
There seem to be an internet conspiracy to frame Churchill for using poison gas on the Kurds. I did a search engine survey. Every site uses the same partial quote. "I do not understand this sqeamishness about the use of gas. I am strongly in favour of using poison gas against uncivilised tribes" What none of them do is finish the quote where Churchill goes on to describe Tear Gas, which is the gas the British used. ------------- Light blue touch paper and stand well back http://www.maquahuitl.co.uk - http://www.maquahuitl.co.uk http://www.toltecitztli.co.uk - http://www.toltecitztli.co.uk |
Posted By: Artaxiad
Date Posted: 30-Jan-2006 at 22:38
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Western Armenia will not be delivered to us on a silver plate, even if the Armenian genocide is recognized by the Turkish government. It will be claimed that the perpertrators of the genocide were Ottomans, and not Turks, so the whole Armenian "question" will be forgotten again. 88 years ago, nobody thought that an independant Armenian state will be recreated in its' original historic homeland, after hundreds of years of foreign domination, but it happened. 50 years ago, nobody thought that Armenia will eventually be independant, but it happened... Why is it impossible?
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Posted By: Iranian41ife
Date Posted: 31-Jan-2006 at 00:00
the west gave palestine to israel for compensation... so i guess that is an example. ------------- "If they attack Iran, of course I will fight. But I will be fighting to defend Iran... my land. I will not be fighting for the government and the nuclear cause." ~ Hamid, veteran of the Iran Iraq War |
Posted By: cebeci
Date Posted: 31-Jan-2006 at 13:33
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then crimea should return to turks as a compensation of ethnic cleansing of russians after the crimean war or karabakh to azerbaijan for reasons surrounding armenian slaughter in early 90's or western turkey to greece for ever-vanished greek population present before turkish independence war or west trachia to turks as compensation of ethnic pressure or parts of nevada and dakota to indians of american shames whatever... where will we stop? ------------- history is just a repetation of itself |
Posted By: Mortaza
Date Posted: 31-Jan-2006 at 13:48
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well why not, just have to change their country name. ROK republic of kurdistan. |
Posted By: cebeci
Date Posted: 31-Jan-2006 at 14:00
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ok then.. everybody decides its own favorite territory and get ready for march!! leave aside the joke and let' be more realistic the most probable result of such an acceptance will be monetary and armenians could well get a bit bite from turkish budget... i think the cost will make a total of 2-3 billion dollars which makes every armenian in caucasus a car-holder ------------- history is just a repetation of itself |
Posted By: Mortaza
Date Posted: 31-Jan-2006 at 14:04
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I think armenians should return easter turkey, but Infact I dont think any of them will return. If any armenian settle turkey, place wont be eastern anatolia but istanbul.
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Posted By: cebeci
Date Posted: 31-Jan-2006 at 14:05
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istanbul has no spare seats anymore only sea remained unsettled
------------- history is just a repetation of itself |
Posted By: Mortaza
Date Posted: 31-Jan-2006 at 14:09
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hehe, this is better for armenians isnt it? By the way, I think there are a lot place at istanbul. armenians can come, greeks can come, maju can come. But not chinies pls.
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Posted By: cebeci
Date Posted: 31-Jan-2006 at 14:23
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the female gender is a reason for preference so any armenian willing to come to istanbul should 1. be female 2. be able to travel at least 3 hour from one side of bosphorus to another without getting nuts 3. speak terrible turkish cause it's the only way to communicate in istanbul 4. be able to spit onto street, spoil the environment, car-horn every minute etc. ------------- history is just a repetation of itself |
Posted By: Mortaza
Date Posted: 31-Jan-2006 at 14:29
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3. speak terrible turkish cause it's the only way to communicate in istanbul I think their turkish is realy realy sweat, I can fall love with an armenian woman just for this. 4. be able to spit onto street, spoil the environment, car-horn every minute etc. We can teach these. |
Posted By: cebeci
Date Posted: 31-Jan-2006 at 15:11
then you can fall in love with a voice recorder theoretically ------------- history is just a repetation of itself |
Posted By: Mortaza
Date Posted: 31-Jan-2006 at 15:13
hehe why not If you support this voice recorder with a fine body.
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Posted By: cebeci
Date Posted: 31-Jan-2006 at 15:20
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then voice alone SOUNDS nothing you gotta have a big " antenna" to get picture ------------- history is just a repetation of itself |
Posted By: DayI
Date Posted: 31-Jan-2006 at 16:06
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nice dialogue guys. ------------- Bu mıntıka'nın Dayı'sı http://imageshack.us - [IMG - http://www.allempires.com/forum/uploads/DayI/2006-03-17_164450_bscap021.jpg - |
Posted By: Artaxiad
Date Posted: 31-Jan-2006 at 21:34
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What an "intellectual discussion". |
Posted By: Digenis
Date Posted: 01-Feb-2006 at 18:58
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well... Turkey to recognize th genocide ? well if in star wars 7 this happens, some nice guys took care to let very few armenians live,just in case their grandchildren would recognize the genocide.  |
Posted By: cebeci
Date Posted: 02-Feb-2006 at 13:13
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sorry but owing to terrible grammar i could not understand your sentence ------------- history is just a repetation of itself |
Posted By: cebeci
Date Posted: 02-Feb-2006 at 13:19
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BTW MORTAZA IS RESPONSIBLE FOR THE QUALITY OF THE CONVERSATION HE CAME UP WITH ARMENIAN WOMEN, ISTANBUL, VOICE ETC AND MESSED IT ALL!!! I MUST CONFESS I AM VERY DISAPPOINTED BY IGNORANT ATTITUDE OF DEAR ARMENIAN FELLOWS WHEN THEY RETAINED THEIR SILENCE WHEN I OPENED THE TOPIC TO THEIR HIGH HYPOTHESES... THEY SOUNDED NOTHING HMMM INTERESTING THEN ONE MUST ASK HIMSELF WHAT ALL THIS HULLABALLOO IS ABOUT ------------- history is just a repetation of itself |
Posted By: Artaxiad
Date Posted: 02-Feb-2006 at 23:19
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Your grammar isn't any better. |
Posted By: cebeci
Date Posted: 04-Feb-2006 at 13:28
then you make it clear pls ------------- history is just a repetation of itself |
Posted By: eaglecap
Date Posted: 09-Feb-2006 at 19:33
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No more than Greece could reclaim Constantinople or I could claim land that belonged to my papoo' family in Eastern Thrace.
Really no more than the Spokan-e tribe (Salish) can reclaim the land where the city of Spokane, WA sits (Spo-can), my city. Turkey should face its past because it needs to deal with it if there is going to be any serious consideration for EU entry. For myself, as a Greek American I hold no grudges but I really do not know how other Greeks and Armenians feel since I am isolated from both communities in America. Many Americans have faced what they did to the Native Americans so I think it would be good for the Turkish people and their relations with the west. ------------- Λοιπόν, αδελφοί και οι συμπολίτες και οι στρατιώτες, να θυμάστε αυτό ώστε μνημόσυνο σας, φήμη και ελευθερία σας θα ε |
Posted By: armenica
Date Posted: 19-Feb-2006 at 10:57
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Half the map of Europe was redrawn for not more than 15 years ago. When the Turkeish government does acknowledge the Armenian Genocide, what is preventing the posibility of territorial compensations? Getting back the entire Western Armenia is not realistic, but Ardahan, Kars and the Igdir Plain could theoretically be claimed. ------------- |
Posted By: mamikon
Date Posted: 19-Feb-2006 at 11:43
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....the people who live in those lands have to decide if they want to be part of Armenia; not the Armenian government, not the Turkish government, and not Europeans or the US. And so far I never heard of people wanting to join Armenia, so even if the Genocide is recognized, the lands will not be given back, lets be realistic... |
Posted By: Artaxiad
Date Posted: 19-Feb-2006 at 17:34
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Not really. Armenians live in the vicinity of the Middle-East, so anything can happen... Don't forget that a lot of islamicized Armenians live in Western Armenia, including Hamshentsi Armenians. Why is Europe allocating billions of Euros to resettle the Metskhetian Turks in Georgia? http://www.regnum.ru/english/590482.html |
Posted By: Beylerbeyi
Date Posted: 19-Feb-2006 at 19:42
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Anyone can claim anywhere. Actually getting it, though, might prove kinda difficult.
Finally, some sensible comment.
How about the second largest military in NATO?
No Armenians are left there. Hemshenis are not very many, and they are likely to shoot you if you call them Armenian, so I wouldn't trust them that much personally. This may be possible if you can convince the Kurds to join Armenia, though. But, of course, they would rather join Kurdistan than Armenia, if they had the choice. Good luck, anyway, you're gonna need it. ------------- |
Posted By: erci
Date Posted: 19-Feb-2006 at 19:49
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Georgia is a stooge of US and Turkey.Don't expect much from Javakh situation same goes for hemsins.They are one of the most religious(muslim) people in Turkey I known of. ------------- "When one hears such music, what can one say, but .... Salieri?" |
Posted By: ArmenianSurvival
Date Posted: 19-Feb-2006 at 19:58
Eastern Hamshenis call themselves Armenians. Islamicized Armenians still recognize that they are Armenians whose grandparents converted to Islam during WW1. I'm not arguing about the land issue here (I already gave my opinion on that), I'm just clarifying that many Hamshenis identify themselves as Armenians (especially in the Eastern group). ------------- Mass Murderers Agree: Gun Control Works! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Van_Resistance Քիչ ենք բայց Հայ ենք։ |
Posted By: erci
Date Posted: 19-Feb-2006 at 20:07
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According to wikipedia and Armenian government, yes.I am from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artvin_Province - hopa and I think I know enough Hemsins to say that they don't call themselves Armenian. ------------- "When one hears such music, what can one say, but .... Salieri?" |
Posted By: mamikon
Date Posted: 20-Feb-2006 at 00:23
Georgia is not a stooge of US and Turkey...its a stooge of Russia, if Georgia/Armenia relations turn sour, Javakh will succeed from Georgia, and Georgia will fall apart (there are already 3 autonomous oblasts in Georgia...which is only about 68 km^2 in area...). Russia is by all means the dominating force in the region, and its playing the Caucasian states against each other to keep its power there. Take a look at Azerbaijan for example, not until Aliev came to power did Russia negotiate a treaty, mainly pushing Armenia for a ceasefire... |
Posted By: Beylerbeyi
Date Posted: 20-Feb-2006 at 15:31
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Hemshenis are Armenians. But they don't identify with them. I have personal experience with East Hemshenis and they sure as hell didn't call themselves Armenian. I called them Armenian, and they didn't like it. Most even don't know that their so-called language is an Armenian dialect. Besides they are not populous enough to create a base for Armenian claims in Eastern Turkey. Stop deluding yourself. ------------- |
Posted By: ArmenianSurvival
Date Posted: 20-Feb-2006 at 17:37
Anyways, in the unlikely situation that
Armenia gets the land, they would probably have a mass Armenian
immigration from the diaspora to the region in order to balance it with
the Kurdish population. And thats IF they could give Armenians in the
diaspora enough incentive to go back. I just don't see how any of those
steps would manifest into reality. Doesn't mean its impossible, just
very unlikely. ------------- Mass Murderers Agree: Gun Control Works! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Van_Resistance Քիչ ենք բայց Հայ ենք։ |
Posted By: mamikon
Date Posted: 20-Feb-2006 at 18:58
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yup, not impossible, only unlikely |
Posted By: erkut
Date Posted: 20-Feb-2006 at 19:01
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impossible ------------- |
Posted By: erci
Date Posted: 20-Feb-2006 at 21:54
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Nothing is impossible yet it is unlikely as you said. The Constitution of the Republic of Turkey ARTICLE 3. The Turkish state, with its territory and nation, is an indivisible entity. Its language is Turkish. Its flag, the form of which is prescribed by the relevant law, is composed of a white crescent and star on a red background. Its national anthem is the Independence March. Its capital is Ankara. IV. Irrevocable Provisions ARTICLE 4. The provision of Article 1 of the Constitution establishing the form of the state as a Republic, the provisions in Article 2 on the characteristics of the Republic, and the provision of Article 3 shall not be amended, nor shall their amendment be proposed. Which means you have to declare war on Turkey to make it happen. |
Posted By: Artaxiad
Date Posted: 20-Feb-2006 at 22:26
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Nobody is advocating war. Turkey is in a delusional state, when every sign of difference is a serious threat. For example, Turkey changed the latin names of certain plants/animals which had the word "Armenicus" in their names. Turkey has many rivals/enemies, even in its' own soil. Turkey might eventually fall by itself, as a consequence of an eventually difficult geopolitical situation. Armenia just has to wait there and develop by its' own, until the time comes. |
Posted By: mamikon
Date Posted: 20-Feb-2006 at 22:57
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hmmm...we might get Kars, Ardahan , and Trebizond...the rest will be Kurdis. note...MIGHT...as the operative word, if Turkey does fall apart. but if it does, prolly the whole region will be engulfed in a war  |
Posted By: erci
Date Posted: 20-Feb-2006 at 23:03
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oh yea, there are Kurds in Turkey right? and the greeks and armenians who are waiting for Turkey to loose power. Why aren't you instead trying to improve your relations with Turkey but wasting your time and waiting for hand out.Wouldn't that be better for Armenia? |
Posted By: mamikon
Date Posted: 20-Feb-2006 at 23:20
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lol...take it easy dude...no one is trying to steal anything...all I
have said that Armenia getting land back is very improbably but
possible... why am not I? I am personally ok with Turks... You might want to talk to Kocharyan about the Armenian-Turkish relations... |
Posted By: Artaxiad
Date Posted: 20-Feb-2006 at 23:29
| Hey, Turkey closed the border, not Armenia. It didn't need to meddle into Armenian-Azerbaijani affairs back when the struggle for Karabagh started... |
Posted By: erci
Date Posted: 21-Feb-2006 at 00:00
I'm perfectly calm, thanks tho I wasn't referring to you or other armenian members here.I mean not literally you of course |
Posted By: armenica
Date Posted: 21-Feb-2006 at 02:44
That won't hold for long. The importance of Turkey as the bastion of
NATO against the Red threast has declined since the end of the Cold
War, and the recent development between US and Turkey and Turkish
refusal to allow US use the air force bases in eastern Turkey has made
a essential change in how important ally Turkey is in NATO.
There are plenty Armenians left in Western Armenia, be assured. They just have chosen not to make big deal out of it and that of clear reasons. They are not as many as before but around couple of hundred thousand or so. I knwo lots of people who still have close relatives in the region, who know they are of Armenian descent, even though they are Muslims (muslimised after the Armenian Genocide), speak Turkish or Kurdish and have turkified Armenian surnames or simple bare Turkish names. And wouldn't say that anything is impossible. The human life is to short to able some people to see the greater picture and possibilities. General Tito would call you out of your mind if someone in 1975 would tell him that Yugoslavia would cease to exist in less than 20 years. The same would go for Stalin about 50 years ago. So nothing is impossible. 10 years ago, Turkey, the strong NATO ally, wouldn't dream of having to face accusations about the Armenian Genocide from Germany, did she? But then in 2005 Germany recognised the "so-called" genocide which assumably never took place. Never say never... ------------- |
Posted By: Qajar
Date Posted: 21-Feb-2006 at 09:54
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It will never happened. I think it would be good for everyone if armenians start care much more about their internal problems rather externals. The population of Armenia has been constantly dicreesing since 1991. There are about 2 mln armenians live there at the moment. Interesting isn't it??? ------------- Shah Ismail I Sefevid - the founder of the greatest azeri-turk ruler dinasti of Iran. Agha Mohammad Khan Qajar - the founder of the greatest azeri-turk ruler dinasty in Iran. |
Posted By: DayI
Date Posted: 21-Feb-2006 at 09:58
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there are more armenians outside armenia then in armenia, im somethimes confusing them with israel. ------------- Bu mıntıka'nın Dayı'sı http://imageshack.us - [IMG - http://www.allempires.com/forum/uploads/DayI/2006-03-17_164450_bscap021.jpg - |
Posted By: Bashibozuk
Date Posted: 21-Feb-2006 at 10:45
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Trabzon? The only reason for the fiasco of Sevres to give Trabzon to a newly formed Armenian state was to provide them some sort of trading port. And as you know, Erzurum, and the surrounding regions are the castles for Turkish nationalism in the east, Igdir is Azeri Turks by majority and Erzincan, well they got rid of Armenian invaders once, they can do it again! Returning to real life, Armenia is no way claiming lands from anyone, except official Azerbaijani land of Karabagh. The total population of whole Armenia is less than the total population of five provinces of Eastern Turkey. ------------- Garibim, namima Kerem diyorlar, Asli'mi el almis, harem diyorlar. Hastayim, derdime verem diyorlar, Marasli Seyhoglu Satilmis'im ben. |
Posted By: armenica
Date Posted: 21-Feb-2006 at 13:45
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Well, with lovely neighbours such as you, enforced embargo and constant threats and closed borders, I think it is a great (well monumental) achievement to have an independent Armenia to begin with. That Armenia's GDP per capita is not that much less than the "great" Turkey, speaks its own truth. ------------- |
Posted By: Mortaza
Date Posted: 21-Feb-2006 at 13:50
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Err also you should remember your others lovely neighbours, russia georgia and iran. It is not only our guilt. Ah also you should get rid of your mafia style goverment. By the way, I dont think armenia anytime can get trabzon, I think only my relatives have largest arsenal than ROA.
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Posted By: DayI
Date Posted: 21-Feb-2006 at 14:55
------------- Bu mıntıka'nın Dayı'sı http://imageshack.us - [IMG - http://www.allempires.com/forum/uploads/DayI/2006-03-17_164450_bscap021.jpg - |
Posted By: Beylerbeyi
Date Posted: 21-Feb-2006 at 15:51
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Interestingly, while the USSR had double Turkey's GDP, independent Armenia had half of it until recently. It is still significantly less despite handouts from the diaspora. What truth does this speak of?
So? It is not NATO that is the problem, it is the military. Do you think the military will disappear if Turkey leaves NATO tomorrow?
And some people live in their own fantasy land with pink clouds and purple skies.
That's a very bad example. Marshall (not General) Tito knew full well the nationalist threat in Yugoslavia.
This is better. Yes, even the CIA couldn't guess 5 years ago. But this doesn't mean that Armenia will conquer Turkey.
This is all political maneouvering. It was concievable 10 years ago as well. Germany has already proved itself to be an unreliable ally back then, by making it clear that it would not help Turkey in case of an Iraqi attack during the first Gulf war (repeated it in the second one as well, with better reasons this time).
Keep on dreaming. Even if Turkey loses those areas, they will become Kurdish, not Armenian. And no imperialist great powers will invade Turkey and create an Armenian mandate for themselves, unlike in 1920, so I recommend not holding your breath. Anyway, you don't represent the Armenian state. They have a realistic attitude. Diaspora is dreaming, but the state is sober, so the future could still be bright for all. ------------- |
Posted By: ArmenianSurvival
Date Posted: 21-Feb-2006 at 17:14
Directly invading Karabagh? The Republic of Armenia's army never fought against Azeri forces. Before the war, Karabagh had a democratic vote and they overwhelmingly favored the union with Armenia. Azerbaijan's army then occupied the province, and Armenian residents of that province kicked them out for rejecting the democratic vote and using military aggression.
I Don't know what you're trying to get at here, so I will talk about Armenia's relationship with each country to clear things up, starting with Russia. Armenia has become more reliant on Russia because being part of the Soviet Union meant depending on Russia in many ways, mainly economically and militarily. Prior to Armenian forces losing to the Redy Army (Armenia actually fought them off unlike most members of the USSR, and Armenia was simultaneously at war with Ataturk's forces), Armenia had only been independent for only a few years (1918), and prior to that, it was part of the Russian Empire. So the relationship between the two nations can be logically traced back for centuries. Now that Armenia is independent, it continues that dependency towards Russia, since Armenia is well beyond 3rd world status. So a newly-independent, 3rd world country blockaded from both sides should not accept Russian aid? Why? Who in their right mind would turn down something so beneficial? Its as if Armenia's centuries-long relationship with Russia seems unnatural, or like theres a joint Armenian-Russian conspiracy to go after Turkey. I hope no one thinks about Armenia's relationship with Russia like that anymore, that is how the Young Turk nationalists used to think in 1915. Armenia has never been on very friendly terms with Georgia, and that is evident in the fact that Armenia still has border disputes with them. The increasing relationship with Iran is only a recent trend, because Turkey and Azerbaijan have had Armenia blockaded for the short time of independence, while Armenia is not on very good terms with Georgia. Iran is the only bordering nation left, and they are a regional power. Also, for the reason of Armenia being blockaded, their relationship with Armenia is strictly an economic one.
Believe me, Armenians want that more than you do, since Armenians actually suffer from it. I look at it as very similar to the situation in Iran in this respect: Domestically/Internally, etc, the governments are holding their nations from progressing, but theres nothing the majority of people can do about it since the governments have such tight grips on everything. In Iran, it is done through "Islamic Law" and in Armenia it is done through mafia-esque economic control.
150,000 Armenian residents kicked out an oil-rich government from out of a province that was occupied by the country's military. What does this tell us about about Turkey's brother Azerbaijan, and what would happen to them if the ROA actually got involved in the war? But you'd probably say that Armenian residents just in Azerbaijan are also better equipped than the ROA. So nevermind
------------- Mass Murderers Agree: Gun Control Works! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Van_Resistance Քիչ ենք բայց Հայ ենք։ |
Posted By: mamikon
Date Posted: 21-Feb-2006 at 17:45
| Armenia didnt get involved in Karabakh because Armenia was not connected to Karabakh...Karabakh Armenians defeated Azeries themselves... |
Posted By: Beylerbeyi
Date Posted: 21-Feb-2006 at 18:36
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Azerbaijan was not oil rich, it still isn't. And the only military unit in Karabag was the Soviet unit which was raided by the Armenians, and later fought together with them. Because as Azerbaijan attempted to become independent, Russia supported Armenia. Azerbaijan couldn't get any significant help from anywhere, since Turkey (rightly) wouldn't risk confrontation with Russia and Armenia was in between. Only when Armenians attacked Nahcivan, Turkey 'bared its fangs'. Russia warned Turkey about 'World War III', but pulled Armenia's chains, and Armenia stayed away from Nahcivan afterwards. During the war, only once Azerbaijan got some heavy weapons due to a treaty about partitioning Soviet forces in the area, and they regained some of the land using that equipment. Armenians complained to Russia immediately. This is how things happen in the Caucasus, big players push the little ones around, while the little ones think they are superheroes fighting villains, but I bet you are already typing how heroic Armenian civilians with bows and arrows defeated the mighty Azeri Army supported by Turkey, Russia, USA and Iran, and whatever thousand Azeris have fled the invaded areas willingly because they were very ashamed of losing the war...
It tells us that Russia still calls the shots in the Caucasus.
Funny as it sounds, it may actually be true. ------------- |
Posted By: Qajar
Date Posted: 21-Feb-2006 at 18:40
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Armenia didnt get involved in Karabakh because Armenia was not connected to Karabakh...Karabakh Armenians defeated Azeries themselves... ------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------- I hope you jokeing???? So,you want to say that 100,000 armenians in karabagh defeated 8 million Azerbaijan?????? For information: The history of this problem began since second half of 19th century, when armenian nacionalist revolutionery party "Dashnakcutyn" become ally with russian imperial government. Untill that moment, there was very good relations between armenians and turks in both Anatolia and Azerbaijan. The main target of dashnaks was "west Armenia" which was located in eastern Anatolia of Turkey. There was a plan consisted of three major objectives: 1. with support of russian and possible european forces and politics, create an armenian state in turkish land. 2. using rich armenians influence in Russia Emperia, make everything possible to rid of azeri-turks from the big Karabagh lands ( big karabagh includes - mountains Karabagh as well as surrounding districts) with furthet join it to Great Armenia state. 3. do exactly same thing with mostly armenian populated district of Samtcxe-Dzhavaxetiya in Georgia. But the main and most important goal for them was turkish land of course, what's why until 1916-1918 there was not any mojor conflicts between armenians and azeries over the karabagh. After dashnaks plan regarding turkish land was collapsed, they turned into azeri land. In 1918 straight after caucasian nations declared their independence from Russian Empire, Armenia started war with Azerbaijan and Georgia at the same time over the land. I am not going to open discussion about ancient time and providing arguments and facts that karabagh ( artsax) was always belong to Albania and after to all azeri-turkish states in this region, because nobody can prove it with documents. It was too long ago and armenians and azeries would always have different opinions about this. But what I can say, is that since end of 16th century and till join to Russia, mountains karabagh was part of Karabagh khanat which was ruled by azeri-turk dinasty od Dzhevanshir. The piece treaty between Russian Empire and Karabagh khanat was singhed by Panax gulu khan Dzhevanshir Karabaxli and russian Emperor. This treaty agreement you can find in internet sources. If you need, I can post it here. So, it means that Karabagh was joined Russian empire as a azeri-turk khanat. After being more that 100 years part of Russia, in 1918 Azerbaijan,Georgia and Armenia declared independence. As I said, armenians started war with azeries and georgians next day after declaration of independence. My question is, why Armenia started war on karabagh if like armenians here said karabagh "was" part of armenia any way?????? As you know in 1920 bolshevik Russia occupied caucauses countries again and Karabagh third time during 100 years was declared as part of Azerbaijan. Now it was Azerbaijan Soviet Socialist Republic. Armenia Soviet Socialist Republic signed union agreement in 1922 and fully agreed with this. In 1988 armenians in Armenia and Karabagh started nacionalistics movement with main goal of separation from Azerbaijan. The legal way of separation could be referendum of whole population of Azerbaijan Republic. It was legaly confirmed by constitution of USSR. Without approval and referendum of parlament of Azerbaijan SSR and people of Azerbaijan SSR , it's territorial integrety can't changed. Armenians started separatist movement and they began a war. During whole 4 years of intensive war, there was a huge help to armenians from russian military. Russians not only helped with equipment, but also with highly educated and experienced in Afganistan russian officers. In addition to this help, military armenians from Middle East countries came to Karabagh and fight against azeries. The fedains, how armenians called these people were invloved in terrorist movement of ASALA in 1970th and 1980th all over the world. Right now, Armenia is only one country in former european part of Soviet Union which held russian militarry bases in it's land. More over, at the moment almoust all russian soldiers from neighboring Georgia are moving to Armenia with equipment and arms. There is very interesting frase said by head of russian parlament about Armenia: " Armenia is russian forpost in this region". I don't think that I can add anything more to this statement. ------------- Shah Ismail I Sefevid - the founder of the greatest azeri-turk ruler dinasti of Iran. Agha Mohammad Khan Qajar - the founder of the greatest azeri-turk ruler dinasty in Iran. |
Posted By: mamikon
Date Posted: 21-Feb-2006 at 18:43
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Russian units fought with both Karabakh Armenians and
Azeries...where do you think the sporadic Azeri offenses came from... but correct...Russia still calls the shots, and there is nothing anyone can do about it... |
Posted By: mamikon
Date Posted: 21-Feb-2006 at 18:45
again with the propoganda...unless you give me a relevant souce, your article doesnt mean anything... |
Posted By: mamikon
Date Posted: 21-Feb-2006 at 18:47
| oh and if Karabakh was isolated at the beginning of the war...how would Armenia help them...there were no reports of Armenians crossing Azeri territory to get to Karabakh... |
Posted By: Qajar
Date Posted: 21-Feb-2006 at 18:49
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again with the propoganda...unless you give me a relevant souce, your article doesnt mean anything... ------------------------------------------------------------ -------------------------------- I have already provided many photo sources and facts in other topic about karabgh and khojaly. My main sources are history and time....... ------------- Shah Ismail I Sefevid - the founder of the greatest azeri-turk ruler dinasti of Iran. Agha Mohammad Khan Qajar - the founder of the greatest azeri-turk ruler dinasty in Iran. |
Posted By: Qajar
Date Posted: 21-Feb-2006 at 18:51
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oh and if Karabakh was isolated at the beginning of the war...how would Armenia help them...there were no reports of Armenians crossing Azeri territory to get to Karabakh... ------------------------------------------------------------ -------------------------------
My dear naive friend, in 1988-1992 the border between Azerbaijan and Armeni was under russian's control, so who should report?????? Russians would report about their involvment in war on armenians side??? ------------- Shah Ismail I Sefevid - the founder of the greatest azeri-turk ruler dinasti of Iran. Agha Mohammad Khan Qajar - the founder of the greatest azeri-turk ruler dinasty in Iran. |
Posted By: mamikon
Date Posted: 21-Feb-2006 at 19:04
mmmmmm? seriously though...still no sources...I have read all of your posts on the Azerbaijani unification thread too, and still no sources, nothing you say is credible. |
Posted By: mamikon
Date Posted: 21-Feb-2006 at 19:06
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)))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))
My dear naive friend, in 1988-1992 the border between Azerbaijan and Armeni was under russian's control, so who should report?????? Russians would report about their involvment in war on armenians side??? |
Posted By: Behi
Date Posted: 21-Feb-2006 at 19:22
Probably herodout has written this numbers
@Mamikon: Inform me please, If he mentioned any reliable source for his fictions   
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Posted By: Zagros
Date Posted: 21-Feb-2006 at 19:27
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Posted By: Artaxiad
Date Posted: 21-Feb-2006 at 20:42
Maybe it wouldn't be enough, but unlike the Kurds who didn't have much support other than themselves, Armenia and its' partners (including the Armenian diaspora) would all be together. But hey, we're not advocating war. We just have to stay idle and let Armenia continue its' economic growth until the geopolitical situation in the area is favorable for us.
If relations between Turkey its' traditional base of support (US and Israel) deteriorates, Turkey will have sever problems.
What support did Armenia have in the summer of 1918, when the Russians (under Lenin's orders) retreated from the Caucasus, when the Turkish army was in a better shape than the Armenian army, and when that army was marching towards Yerevan, ? None, yet they succeeded in defending Yerevan.
That's what Turkish journalists say. All Armenians are united in issues like genocide and (to a lesser degree) land. |
Posted By: armenica
Date Posted: 22-Feb-2006 at 03:05
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So how many Armenians did actually defeat (NOTE!) the Azeri regular
army? By the way: did actually the entire 8 milion population of
Azerbaijan participate in the war? That might be the reason why you
lost. It would have been smarter (and less crowded) if you had sent an
army of about couple of thousand... As a member of diaspora we are very aware of the internal problems of Armenia. It's a new independent country, surounded by nice, well-willing people such as you. It should be regarded as a miracle that Armenia even exists and is doing so well despite the fact that more than 90% of its borders are closed: " 2006-02-21 Forbes American magazine has published a new, third annual rating of most dangerous countries in the world. Russia appears among these for the first time. The Forbes rating is based on data of iJet Intelligent Risk Systems US consulting company and Control Risks London firm, engaged in assessing risks at visiting various countries in the world by businessmen and tourists. Experts assessed the situation in each country according to a 5-point scale (the lower the figure, the more the security level) by analyzing the degree of threat of terrorism, crime level in that country, the overall political situation, security measures and effectiveness of power institutions. 14 countries were in the list of the most dangerous ones in 2006. Nine out of these had the maximal scores. These are six states of the African continent - Somalia, Sudan, Zimbabwe, Cote d'Ivoire, Congo and Liberia, as well as Afghanistan, Iraq and Haiti. These countries are characterized with "despotic rule, low education level and low life value." Belarus is named most "inhospitable" country for foreign investment in the CIS. Georgia was among moderate dangerous countries. According to Forbes, Armenia is the best from the point of view of investment attraction. It is followed by Moldova, Georgia, Kazakhstan." Instead of investing in social welfare, education and industry, Armenia is forced to put the money in arms and army, just in case Turkey gets an idea to pick up where if left in 1915. It's so feeble to see how Turkish and Azeri media time after time try to give the image of the devilish diaspora while Armenia doesn't want anything but forgiving and forgetting. You have been fed by the same lying aparatus for over 90 years, so no news there either. My advice to you: read other sources but the Turkish and Azeri and you might see the reality. ------------- |
Posted By: Beylerbeyi
Date Posted: 22-Feb-2006 at 12:49
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The West is trying, especially in Georgia.
Exactly the same mentality, only with more justification (others were more likely to help back then), led to the Armenian genocide in 1915. Sad that you have taken no lessons from it.
First of all, my kin are my relatives only. I am not a nationalist nor a racist, unlike you, who thinks everyone who speaks Turkish is kin. But you are wrong anyway. Nobody in Turkey (not even the dumbest Fascist) thinks that Turkey is 99% 'pure', whatever that means. What the right-wing says is that Turkey is 99% Muslim. Which is, indeed, a lie.
If this happens, Turkey will have some problems in the short term, but will be better in the long run. Being in the US sphere has dealt great harm to Turkey in the past. And surely I prefer having good relationship with our Muslim neighbours rather than with Israel.
Yes, on the other hand, Armenians had all the support in the world in 1915, but they got ethnically cleansed. The lesson which you should learn, indeed should have learnt by now, if you want to get anywhere at all, is don't trust the imperialists.
Spoken like a true fascist, 'we are united', but you are again wrong. Like in any nation there are hawks and doves in Armenia. Even in this thread, the three Armenians have different views on the land issue. Who do you think you are fooling?
So, given this state of affairs, that Armenia is a poor weak little lamb surrounded by wolves, do you think it is a good idea to pursue a hawk policy? Is it a good idea to threaten Turkey? I sometimes think that, the diaspora which lives in the US or France in luxury, and wouldn't care if Armenia Armenians got killed in wars.
Like any nationalist, you blame your militarist/expansionistic attitude and economic failure on Turkey as well. Why in hell would Turkey attack Armenia to kill Armenians? What is to be found in the useless mountains of Armenia? Turkey has enough useless mountains. Oh, sorry I forgot that Turks are evil demons who drink Armenian blood at dinner.
Armenia is not portraited that way in the Turkish media. I don't know the Azeri media, but I doubt that they do it either. You are so far from the reality that you think you know what Turkish media says better than I do. As I said before, keep on dreaming. ------------- |
Posted By: mamikon
Date Posted: 22-Feb-2006 at 14:28
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"Exactly the same mentality, only with more justification (others were more likely to help back then), led to the Armenian genocide in 1915. Sad that you have taken no lessons from it." Actually Armenians were anything but united, they were all united to serve the Ottoman Empire and the Young Turks in 1908, not the nonexistant Armenia. as he pointed out, it is now, that Armenians are united. "I am not a nationalist nor a racist, unlike you," what makes you say he is racist? "Yes, on the other hand, Armenians had all the support in the world in 1915, but they got ethnically cleansed. The lesson which you should learn, indeed should have learnt by now, if you want to get anywhere at all, is don't trust the imperialists." What do you mean Armenians had all the support in the world? have you heard of a European soldier set foot in Van in 1915? ...plus what could the west do? they were already fighting the Ottomans werent they? And as he pointed out Armenians did save their remaining populations over the better equipped and far greater in number Turksih armies, without anyone's help...now that they knew the real intentions of the Turkish government... The west (and also the Arab world) has been nothing but humane to the Armenians. They have accepted them to their communities, opened up orphanages, gave material support. It is only the Turkish government that has persecuted Armenians for the whole first quarter of the 20th century...even after the war was over, Ataturk did not even mention that for the past few years a whole 2 million of Ottoman/Turkey's citizens have been killed/deported...how do you expect any Armenian to ever trust Turkey if it does not even mention its wrongs... "Spoken like a true fascist, 'we are united', but you are again wrong. Like in any nation there are hawks and doves in Armenia. Even in this thread, the three Armenians have different views on the land issue. Who do you think you are fooling? " you have to insult him just because he said something that is painfully obvious? the truth is "we ARE united" Any Armenian you see, in any part of the world will reflect on the Genocide and has a story to tell. Each and every Armenian in the diaspora is a survivor of the Genocide. With respect to the land issue, every Armenian hopes that sometime the land will be ours again. And we are all aware that this will not happen right now, he is not fooling anyone, what he said is exactly right "Armenia is not portraited that way in the Turkish media. I don't know the Azeri media, but I doubt that they do it either. You are so far from the reality that you think you know what Turkish media says better than I do." Oh? so why is it that almost every Azeri site harasses Armenia or Armenians in some way? And dont you live in Haiti btw? how do you know what the Turkish media says 
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Posted By: Beylerbeyi
Date Posted: 22-Feb-2006 at 19:55
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He wrote that others will help Armenia in taking land from Turkey. Well, they got all the help they could in 1915 and what happened?
I called him a nationalist or a racist, because he thinks all members of a nation are kin.
What are the Russians? Africans?
Yes the West invaded Turkey, and even that wasn't enough to give land to Armenia. As to Armenians defending Yerevan, I am sure they did, but Turkish armies were not that much interested in taking Yerevan or killing Armenians. Kemalists were happy with the borders of today, they didn't want to take Armenia or Georgia. On the other hand, Turkish armies reached even Baku. If they really wanted to get Yerevan, they most probably would have.
Used them as fifth column within Ottoman Empire. Used them as excuse to start expansionistic wars against the Ottoman Empire. Wanted to create a state for them which they would dominate. They are still using this matter to gain political leverage over Turkey. Do you actually think that French politicians give a rat's ass about dead Armenians?
Some say he did, others say he didn't. Not that there were 2 million Armenians in Turkey. More like 1.5 millions. Talaat's notes mention that he deported about 1 million.
Good point. I don't expect them to trust Turkey. I don't trust Turkey myself. They should work on this, get Turkey to admit that it was wrong. By direct dialogue. Not by asking the French, or by blowing up civilians. That's counter-productive.
Which part do you consider an insult? I just wrote that that sounds like fascist rhetoric, and it sure as hell does. As to Armenian unity and every Armenian in the diaspora being survivor of genocide, I disagree. I've seen Armenians with all kinds of views. You don't need to be afraid of different opinions or admitting them.
I don't think that is the case. If it is, it is not a healthy mental state. Nor a good basis for politics.
Indeed, that's the case. It was the other guy who wrote that Azeri media portraits Armenia positively and demonises the diaspora, tell this to him, not to me. I don't live in Haiti. But I surely don't have to live in Turkey to know what happens there or what the media says. ------------- |
Posted By: mamikon
Date Posted: 22-Feb-2006 at 21:21
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"He wrote that others will help Armenia in taking land from Turkey.
Well, they got all the help they could in 1915 and what happened?" He said that unlike in 1915, Armenians are unified now. And they didnt get help from the world. The only reasons the Entente attacked the Ottomans was that they allied themselves with Germany. Armenians had nothing to do with this. "I called him a nationalist or a racist, because he thinks all members of a nation are kin." well...since we are making up definitions I think I will go ahead and call you a Nationalist since you blindingly protect your nation's arguments, even though they are clearly wrong, and a racist since you have insulted him solely for being an Armenian. "What are the Russians? Africans?" I was expecting that. By Europeans I meant to say the English, the French the Italians (who were neutral at this sate) and other countries allied with the Entente. Russia did set foot in Van and the surrounding areas, afterall Ottomans/Russians shared common borders, but they were a little too late since the Genocide was already well under way, and not many Armenians were left. "Yes the West invaded Turkey, and even that wasn't enough to give land to Armenia. As to Armenians defending Yerevan, I am sure they did, but Turkish armies were not that much interested in taking Yerevan or killing Armenians. Kemalists were happy with the borders of today, they didn't want to take Armenia or Georgia. On the other hand, Turkish armies reached even Baku. If they really wanted to get Yerevan, they most probably would have." And you know this because you have met some of them (Kemalists) in your previous life? "Used them as fifth column within Ottoman Empire. Used them as excuse to start expansionistic wars against the Ottoman Empire. Wanted to create a state for them which they would dominate. They are still using this matter to gain political leverage over Turkey. Do you actually think that French politicians give a rat's ass about dead Armenians?" right, saving orphans from the Turks is an excuse to start and expansionistic war againt the Ottoman Empire...who were going to fight with you...nurses, doctors, nuns and missionaries? And Arabs probably saved Armenians because they were going to use the handful they saved to create another Caliphate, similar to the ones in 7th century... "Some say he did, others say he didn't. Not that there were 2 million Armenians in Turkey. More like 1.5 millions. Talaat's notes mention that he deported about 1 million." how nice of you to revere everything else he said, except his supposedly speech of Armenians. More like 1.5 million had died. But lets go with your numbers this time. So what happened to the other 500,000. What did they do, disapparate?...but then again, J.K. Rowlin has not been born yet, so, probably no... "Good point. I don't expect them to trust Turkey. I don't trust Turkey myself. They should work on this, get Turkey to admit that it was wrong. By direct dialogue. Not by asking the French, or by blowing up civilians. That's counter-productive. " Agreed, except for the French part. Why would Turkey recognize its wrong right out of the blue, without external pressure...do you think Germany would have recognized the Genocide if they werent so horribly defeated/destroyed/divided? If you stole a million dollars, would you give it back unless you were about to get sued? "Which part do you consider an insult? I just wrote that that sounds like fascist rhetoric, and it sure as hell does. As to Armenian unity and every Armenian in the diaspora being survivor of genocide, I disagree. I've seen Armenians with all kinds of views. You don't need to be afraid of different opinions or admitting them." no, you have explicitly called him a faschist. You have seen Armenians outside Turkey deny the genocide? and not long for the lands? I think the last sentence applies to Turks more, than to Armenians. "I don't think that is the case. If it is, it is not a healthy mental state. Nor a good basis for politics. Since when is hoping not a healthy mental state. Every Armenian wishes that the lands be returned. Its not like we are going to go to war over it. "Indeed, that's the case. It was the other guy who wrote that Azeri media portraits Armenia positively and demonises the diaspora, tell this to him, not to me. "The other guy made no mention of the Armenians in the Armenian Republic. He said that the Diaspora is treated as the devil, in Azeri media, which it is. "But I surely don't have to live in Turkey to know what happens there or what the media says." neither do I...good to see you have edited some stuff out. |
Posted By: Beylerbeyi
Date Posted: 23-Feb-2006 at 05:38
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Go back and read what he wrote. And nobody said the Allies attacked Turkey to help the Armenians. Dont put words in my mouth. This will never happen. But they helped the best they could, and it was not enough.
I said I dont trust Turkey and I said Armenian genocide took place. And you call me a nationalist. And I sure as hell havent insulted anyone for being an Armenian. You are just lying in desparation.
The Westerners werent there because they couldnt come. The Russians, who are Europeans, did come, but as you write it wasnt enough. This is what I wrote in the first place, you had far more help than you will ever have, but it wasnt enough to take land from Turkey.
Most of what I wrote , rather obviously refers to events before the genocide.
What do I revere that Talat said? 1 million (maybe more) deported (most of which died), 500k killed or converted and some remained, makes sense. There is no need to inflate numbers, they are already bad enough.
Well, Turkey wasnt destroyed. So, following your logic it is impossible to make Turkey to accept. I dont agree. You can make Turkey apologise by dialogue. If thats what you really want (I doubt it). But if you want land, that wont happen if Turkey is not totally defeated. Which wont happen anytime soon. The truth is, people who think like me are trying in Turkey to make the government apologise for its actions, and those people are facing abuse from the nationalist, the media, the public, and the state persecutes them. Despite this the debate has started and our voices are being heard. Outside pressure is good for making Turkey more democratic, EU should press for that anytime. But what the Armenians do is coming up with imperialist agendas like Sevres treaty or making the Europeans pass genocide laws, which the Turks use to justify their own oppression of dissent. We can make Turkish state behave differently, if you work with us, but we cant get anywhere as long as you come to the table as imperialist lackeys. Most of Turkish Armenians agree with me on this point. They are quite fed up with the actions of the diaspora, and their demands for land, which strengthens the hands of Turkish nationalists. Just be warned that nobody in Turkey will side with the imperialists or their lackeys. Possibly except the liberals in press, a tiny minority. So the mention of Sevres just destroys the Armenian cause In Turkey. It seems the diaspora who live in luxury, and in their fantasy world of glorious greater Armenia, dont really care about achieving a solution, and they would prefer more tragedies befalling the real Armenians, otherwise they would lose their sacred cause.
I wrote spoken like a true fascist. Because he wrote like a fascist. It is true Turkey is trying to oppress dissent, but there is more of a debate in Turkey. But I am not proud of being united, that's what fascists do. And thats what you claim, so I dont understand what Turkey does has to do with this.
I consider living in a fantasy land, i.e. hoping for things that wont happen, unhealthy. Your opinion may differ. If you really want, keep your hope, but unless you are willing to fight for land it would be better to drop it from your list of demands.
This is what he wrote:
Whats your problem now? IQ, English, or nationalist blindness?
I edited a faulty quote closing tag, which made my response look as a part of the message I quoted. You probably have seen that it was that way and now it looks ok. I havent changed one word, nor taken stuff out. You are a liar, I am disappointed. ------------- |
Posted By: armenica
Date Posted: 23-Feb-2006 at 07:47
Well, the news which is published on the English versions of Turkish papers constantly try to that: "The dreaming diaspora, who inflicts hostility between Turkey and the poor starving Armenia who doesn't want anything but to establish contact with its powerful neighbour". But then again ignorance is the best tool to escape reality. "Divide and conquer", isn't right? The Batum treaty, in which Armenia was forced to give up the Kars and Ardahan provinces, and later the Moscow treaty were not a treaty that Armenia had any kind of saying during the "negotiations". The first was at time when it was "sign the papper or get ready to be wipeed out of the face of the earth". It happened when Russia had abandoned the front, Georgia had in secret made a deal with the German enemy, and the Muslims refused to defence the country against their invading "ethnical brothers". The second one was signed by Soviet Union, and Stalin had no problem what so ever for selling the entire Armenian nation if it meant securing good relations with Kemalist Turkey. "At the same time as it agitated for repatriation, the Soviet government raised the Armenian Question for the first time since the sovietisation of Armenia. On June 7, 1945, Foreign Minister Viacheslav Molotov told the Turkish ambassador in Moscow that the Kars and Ardahan districts, which had been formally ceded to Turkey by Soviet Russia in 1921, would now have to be returned to the Soviet Union. Although the Turks wanted peaceful relations with the USSR, they were unwilling to make territorial concessions. Soviet pressure pushed Turkey toward an alliance with the West. Through 1945 and 1946 the Soviet Union made repeated claims against Turkey, both in the name of the Armenian and the Georgian republics. On October 27, 1947, Ambassador Andrei Vyshinski spoke at the United Nations in favour of the return of Kars and Ardahan to Georgia, compromising the moral and political claims of the Armenians." So the request is not just a dream and definitely not exclusively Armenian either. ------------- |
Posted By: mamikon
Date Posted: 23-Feb-2006 at 10:19
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"He wrote that others will help Armenia in taking land from Turkey.
Well, they got all the help they could in 1915 and what happened?" This is what you wrote. So where did all the help come from? If it did come, would 2 million of them die/get deported? So I am assuming by "all the help" you mean the Russians? who entered in 1915 and withdrew in 1917? "I said I dont trust Turkey and I said Armenian genocide took place. And you call me a nationalist. And I sure as hell havent insulted anyone for being an Armenian. You are just lying in desparation." Its very noble of you to accept the Genocide, but I was making the example of you being nationalist and/or a racist because thats what you called him, through your own definition. I did not state you were one, its not my fault you do not understand sarcasm. "The Westerners werent there because they couldnt come. The Russians, who are Europeans, did come, but as you write it wasnt enough. This is what I wrote in the first place, you had far more help than you will ever have, but it wasnt enough to take land from Turkey." Exactly, they couldnt, so where does all the help come from...Russians, under General Yudenich had to withdraw in 1917 to fight the Bolsheviks, thats why it wasnt enough...how do you call this far more help? maybe if they had stayed... "Most of what I wrote , rather obviously refers to events before the genocide." there was no English, French, or US presence in the Ottoman Empire, to use the Armenians as a fifth column... "What do I revere that Talat said? 1 million (maybe more) deported (most of which died), 500k killed or converted and some remained, makes sense. There is no need to inflate numbers, they are already bad enough." I did noty say revere Talaat, I said revered Ataturk. You said before "some said he (Ataturk) did mention Armenians and some say he didnt" so..."how nice of you to revere everything else he said, except his supposedly speech of Armenians. More like 1.5 million had died. But lets go with your numbers this time. So what happened to the other 500,000. What did they do, disapparate?...but then again, J.K. Rowlin has not been born yet, so, probably no..." "Well, Turkey wasnt destroyed. So, following your logic it is impossible to make Turkey to accept. I dont agree. You can make Turkey apologise by dialogue. If thats what you really want (I doubt it). But if you want land, that wont happen if Turkey is not totally defeated. Which wont happen anytime soon." Exactly, unlike Germany, Turkey came out as its own country, so there was no necessity to recognize the Genocide, especially when both camps (Communist/Capitalist) wanted Turkey to ally with them. How is my logic saying that Turkey should be destroyed. If Turkey gets destroyed so will Armenia...and who said that I wanted the lands back for real. If Armenia actually did get the lands back, it would be a muslim country...when I said "hope", I meant in a nostalgic kind of way...As I have stated before, the lands can not come back to Armenia unless the people living there wanted to join Armenia. Most Armenians realize that if they got the land by force, it would be very bad for Armenia in general. But unfortunetly those Armenians dont have a voice, it is the idiot Dashnaks who press for the treaty of Sevres...but still, all Armenians "hope" that the lands, some day will be ours again. That kind of hoping is a danger when you actually believe that you will get the lands back and you are taking actions to achieve it. "I wrote spoken like a true fascist. Because he wrote like a fascist. It is true Turkey is trying to oppress dissent, but there is more of a debate in Turkey. But I am not proud of being united, that's what fascists do. And thats what you claim, so I dont understand what Turkey does has to do with this." Since when is being untied fascist mentality? Being united for the fight for recognition of the Genocide is not fascistic.. "Whats your problem now? IQ, English, or nationalist blindness?" oh look, you have called me a nationalist too...and then you say why I have supposedly called you a nationalist...even though one of my favorite leaders is Suleyman the Magnificient... "It's so feeble to see how Turkish and Azeri media time after time try to give the image of the devilish diaspora while Armenia doesn't want anything but forgiving and forgetting. You have been fed by the same lying aparatus for over 90 years, so no news there either." ok so lets dissect the paragraph. The first is almost true (since not all Turkish media criticizes the diaspora). The second part makes no mention of the Armenian Republic and the Azeri media... and this is what you wrote "Indeed, that's the case. It was the other guy who wrote that Azeri media portraits Armenia positively and demonises the diaspora, tell this to him, not to me. "do you see anywhere on that paragraph that Azeri media treats Armenia positively????? "I edited a faulty quote closing tag, which made my response look as a part of the message I quoted. You probably have seen that it was that way and now it looks ok." I havent changed one word, nor taken stuff out. You are a liar, I am disappointed." Actually, I was writing a reply to your original post, I accidentaly
clicked backspace, it went to the previous page, so my reply was
deleted, I came back and your post was changed...I did not memorize
your post...usually the reason people edit, is that some phrase look
really stupid...so they take it out (at least thats what I do...0 I am disappointed too...unlike in your other posts, you insult
people here, because you dont agree with them...I wonder how you would
feel like, if someone erronously said "you have a Nazi mentality..." oh, and what makes me a liar? |
Posted By: kotumeyil
Date Posted: 24-Feb-2006 at 04:36
|
There were missionary schools especially in the cities where Armenians lived.. Also helping does not only refer to just fighting together with Armenians at the same place. The Entante was fighting with the Ottomans on different fronts that would keep a big section of Ottoman forces busy and away from the Armenians. They promised Armenians an autonomous Armenia if they fought against Turkey. This is from an Armenian site, http://www.cilicia.com - www.cilicia.com :
In fact they wanted to share the lands of Ottomans so they used poor Armenians. They only cared about their interests, not the Armenians' lives. By claiming land and mentioning Sevres you are only serving the interests of Turkish ultranationalists. This is why many Turkish people reject even the slightest Armenian claims, because they afraid that they will be forced to leave their land to Armenians and this fear is always supported by nationalist powers. In this way, you are preventing the Turks who understand Armenians' pains from persuading the people that Armenians lived horrible things... ------------- [IMG]http://www.maksimum.com/yemeicme/images/haber/raki.jpg"> |
Posted By: armenica
Date Posted: 24-Feb-2006 at 05:14
USA did not join the WWI until very late into the war. French, English and other missionary groups and schools did leave the area after the outbreak of the war. The foremost evidence from this accounts comes from German and Austrian sources (e.g. Armin T. Wegner) i.e. the allies of Turkey. The majority of the French and English reports comes from the pre war time and from the governmental consuls who left Turkey when the Ottoman joined the Central Powers in late 1914. Don't get confused about who did what and when. And (at least for the third time in this forum) Armenian had never any aspirations of independence until the revelation of what had taken place in Western Armenia. Official documents during past conferences and congresses (Stan Stefano and later Berlin) clearly indicates that Armenians only demanded for "reforms" and "cultural autonomy within the framework of the Ottoman Empire". You keep forgetting this very important fact. Armenians only started talking about independent Armenia when they came to the conclusion that they, as "Armenians" had no place what so ever in a future Turkey: Empire or Republic. Both the Ottoman Empire and the subsequent Young Turks had proofen that Armenians were regarded as a problem which must be removed.
Whether ultranationalists or liberals like it or not, Svres was still a legitimite treaty, the same as the Batum treaty. The Batum treaty was forced upon Armenia and then I guess it would be equally correct to reject it on the same basis as you count for Svres. But of some reason you think that the annexation of Kars, Ardahan and the Igdir plain is quite justifiable, right? So no surprises there I would say. But the fact remains that the "ultranationalists" nor the "Svres treaty" are the main question here. Armenian diaspora might have indicated the possible consequences from the Svres treaty, but the Armenian goverment has never made such claims and it's the Armenian government that Turkey has to deal with, not the Armenian diaspora. In that case it should be no problem for the "moderate" Turkish majority to acknowledge the Armenian genocide, if that's what you are insinuating. ------------- |
Posted By: kotumeyil
Date Posted: 24-Feb-2006 at 05:44
|
The following quote is from an Armenian site: http://www.armeniapedia.org/index.php?title=Armenian_Genocide - http://www.armeniapedia.org/index.php?title=Armenian_Genocid e
It's obvious that Armenians had plans of independence prior to 1914. In an age of nationalism, claiming that there wsn't a plan of independence by Armenians is nonsense.
The rules of international relations are put by power. Turks fought and tore the Treaty of Sevres but Armenians couldn't tore the Batum Treaty. It's so simple. I think if Armenians want to come back to their homes, they should apply for citizenship of Turkey or support the candidacy of Turkey to the EU so that they can come back and settle in Turkey. If they want to govern the lands by their own, this means war. No one presents owned land in a golden plate.
------------- [IMG]http://www.maksimum.com/yemeicme/images/haber/raki.jpg"> |
Posted By: armenica
Date Posted: 24-Feb-2006 at 07:54
Armenpedia is an open encyklopedia just as any other wikipedia site.
It means that anyone can write in it, and taht by no means that all
text stated in Armenpedia is therefore the actual truth or can be
regarded as the absolute rule. "Some Armenians" did propogate for independence, and in
retroperspective they had all the right in the world to do so. But the
fact remains that the major political parties, namely Dashnaktsouytoun
and Hntchak, up to the start of the massacres, advocated for "cultural
autonomy" and at its top "Federative rule within an Ottoman Empire" and
nothing more. http://www.armenica.org/cgi-bin/history/en/getHistory.cgi?7==283 - http://www.armenica.org/cgi-bin/history/en/getHistory.cgi?7= =283 In 1892, the first party convention of Dashnaktsoutyoun demanded:
"Political and economic freedom to Western Armenia". At the fourth
convention, in 1907, in reaction to the intervening events, the party's
aim was extended to the self-governance of Western Armenia within the
framework of the Ottoman Empire and the self-governance of Eastern
Armenia within the framework of a federal Russia. Subsequently, during
the ninth convention of the party in Yerevan, in 1909, these two goals
merged into one challenge: "One united and independent Armenia". And secondly, and most important, any kind of these aspirations does
in no way justify a genocide even if the Armenians wanted to establish
an independent Armenia. There is no justification which would say: "Oh,
right! If they wanted independence and separation from Turkey, then it
is OK to commit genocide". A genocide is a genocide!
Would there be anything else? Any financial aid for your membership campaign? Prof. Cicek who represented the intellectual historical society in Turkey suggested (and I quote) "Armenian diaspora should actually be thankful for the deportation measures by the Ottoman government and they should pay the present Turkish government for the expenses that these deportations cost for the Ottoman government"!!!! People called it shameful; Dr. Tessa Hofmann (from Germany) demanded an apology to the present Armenians in the conference hall, while others just laughed at his lame statement. And that is exactly what the Turkish argumentation is based upon. There is no end to Turkish ignorance! Turkey has long way of pshycological preparation before she can realize and admit the horours it committed and that the Western Armenian lands which the republic of Turkey inherited are soaking with the blood of its former Armenian citizens which it had the duty to protect, not slaughter. Turkey has started to wake up from the 90 years old lethargy. More and more historians, journalists, teachers and others come to the conclusion that something with the cover up story doesn't hold water. They have seen the truth and some of them have accepted the harsh but true reality. The rest will follow in due time. ------------- |
Posted By: kotumeyil
Date Posted: 24-Feb-2006 at 08:20
|
I think 1909 is before the WWI...
I don't reject and legitimize the ethnic cleansing against Armenians and I apologize to the victims.
No, thanks (for me being member or not doesn't matter The topic is about Armenian claims on Eastern Anatolia, so I say this: If Armenians want to retun to Anatolia, Turkish state should allow this. However if Armenians want to take Eastern Anatolia for themselves and want to govern it, this brings war. This is obvious. ------------- [IMG]http://www.maksimum.com/yemeicme/images/haber/raki.jpg"> |
Posted By: DayI
Date Posted: 24-Feb-2006 at 08:31
Trkiyeye serbest dolasim hakki taninmiyor simdilik, eger ab'ye ye olsa bile. ------------- Bu mıntıka'nın Dayı'sı http://imageshack.us - [IMG - http://www.allempires.com/forum/uploads/DayI/2006-03-17_164450_bscap021.jpg - |
Posted By: DayI
Date Posted: 24-Feb-2006 at 08:34
taviz.... ------------- Bu mıntıka'nın Dayı'sı http://imageshack.us - [IMG - http://www.allempires.com/forum/uploads/DayI/2006-03-17_164450_bscap021.jpg - |
Posted By: armenica
Date Posted: 24-Feb-2006 at 08:45
That's your primerly problem. You're not serious about this. If you
were serious about it then you would study the details. Yes, WWI
started in 1914, but the masscres of the Armenians did claim
150.000-200.000 (Erzurum, Van, Kharpout, Sivas) lives in 1894-96 and
about another 15.000-20.000 (as more as 30.000 has been reported too)
in 1909 (Adana). Click on and go down to 1890: 1890: In June 1890 there was a bloodbath in Erzurum. The Ottoman military had,
on account of a groundless report and lies, intruded the Armenian
church in Erzurum in order to search for hidden weapons. The Armenians,
infuriated by this desecration, under the leadership of one of their
most famous figures, Harutyun Pasdermadjian, tried to defend the church
but the Turkish military executed them on the spot. 1893: The prelude tot the mass murders during 1894-1896 began with the events in Sasoun. The Armenians in this mountainous region suffered especially more from the Kurdish assaults and crimes. Since the creation of the Homayoun lackeys, the Kurds had been armed to the teeth. Besides the taxes which the Armenians must pay to the government, they were also forced to pay illegal fees and taxes to the Kurdish clan leaders. 1893: The Armenians in Sasoun refused to subject themselves to this
oppression, i.e. to pay illegal taxes and fees to the Kurds who were
about to ruin them. However, they continued to pay their taxes to the
collectors of the Ottoman government. The Kurds who had been angered by
this action attacked the Armenians of Sasoun, but these courageous
mountaineers hit them back. Then the Kurds called for help from the
Turkish government and the Turks immediately sent an armed force to the
area. These soldiers, who were led by General Zeki Pasha, joined the
Kurds, occupied Sasoun and started a horrible mass slaughter (August
1894). This mass murder, which was the first link in a long chain of
crimes and oppression which was about to continue from 1894 to 1922,
was perhaps the most terrifying one in regard to how it was carried out
compared with all other mass murders which happened after it, since 3
500 out of 12,000 Armenians in Sasoun were murdered. 1895: In September, the Armenians in Constantinople arranged a demonstration
led by the Hntchak party, which ended in a bloodbath. In the wakes of
this event, other large massacres took place, from September and all
the way to December 1895. Large scale massacres took also place in
Trabizond, Bayberout, Erzurum, Erzinjan, Bitlis 186/412, Diyarbakir,
Kharpout, Arabkir, Malatya, Sivas, Mardin, Aintab, Marash and Caesarea.
These massacres reached their peak in Ourfa, where 3,000 Armenians were
murdered during the first week of the new year, of whom the majority
were women and children who had taken cover in the city church. These
were burned alive in the church. 1896:
1909: new massacre of the Armenians started in the Armenian provinces and
especially in Cilicia. It is still uncertain who was behind these
massacres which cost the lives of 15,000 Armenians, and we don't know
whether this was the last act of vengeance of the fallen regime or the
first measure of the new one. One of the best experts on eastern
questions, Viktor Berard, claims firmly that the cooperation between
some of the people in the Progress and Development in these events can
be proved with certainty. These were the major massacres. There were plenty more inbetween.
Not everyone has the courage to admit that.
I have never seen an official claim to lands in eastern Turkey. You should be able to keep apart the official demands and claims of the Armenian govrenment and the aspirations of the general Armenian community. The main problem in this issue remains the Turkish denial of the Armenian Genocide. Most of the frustration and calls for retaliations originate in the fact that Turkey has neither recognised nor apologised for its past behaviour towards its Armenian population. That is the profound problem. Armenians have never been given the opportunity to close that chapter in their history and are still, after 90 years, stamping on the same page waiting for an apology. A recognition and an official apology will ease much of that old wound that has never healed. And to be honest it doesn't sound that appealing that Armenians go back and pay for something that belonged to them before the ethnic cleansing.Would you? If Turkey does not acknowledge the Armenian genocide and comes clean with its past, no Armenian would ever feel safe or willing to come back to what they had called their fatherland for over 2500 years. A recognition might change much of that attitude and who knows, maybe many of them will return to their homes. ------------- |
Posted By: Artaxiad
Date Posted: 24-Feb-2006 at 09:05
In 1914, there was another congress in Erzurum, where it was stated that during the War, Eastern Armenians shall remain loyal to the Russian Empire, and Western Armenians will remain loyal to the Ottoman Empire by fulfilling their duties in their respective countries. From armenica.org:
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Posted By: kotumeyil
Date Posted: 24-Feb-2006 at 09:50
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@armenica I'm not asking about the reasons. You first claimed that the Armenians had no idea of independence prior to WWI. Subsequently, in your own post it was shown that the long-term idea of the Dashnaksutiun was a "one united and independent Armenia" in 1909. This is a contradiction.
However, one of the parties in the government coalition (if not changed) is Dashnaksutiun and here's its goals from the official page: http://www.arfd.am/english/policy/programme.php - http://www.arfd.am/english/policy/programme.php The Armenian Revolutionary Federation's goals are:
It's their shame, not mine. ------------- [IMG]http://www.maksimum.com/yemeicme/images/haber/raki.jpg"> |
Posted By: Artaxiad
Date Posted: 24-Feb-2006 at 11:56
| It is the Dashnaktsoutyoun's legitimate right in Armenia, which is a democratic country. |
Posted By: Mortaza
Date Posted: 24-Feb-2006 at 16:03
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The truth is, people who think like me are trying in Turkey to make the government apologise for its actions, and those people are facing abuse from the nationalist, the media, the public, and the state persecutes them. Despite this the debate has started and our voices are being heard. Outside pressure is good for making Turkey more democratic, EU should press for that anytime. But what the Armenians do is coming up with imperialist agendas like Sevres treaty or making the Europeans pass genocide laws, which the Turks use to justify their own oppression of dissent. We can make Turkish state behave differently, if you work with us, but we cant get anywhere as long as you come to the table as imperialist lackeys. Most of Turkish Armenians agree with me on this point. They are quite fed up with the actions of the diaspora, and their demands for land, which strengthens the hands of Turkish nationalists. Just be warned that nobody in Turkey will side with the imperialists or their lackeys. Possibly except the liberals in press, a tiny minority. So the mention of Sevres just destroys the Armenian cause In Turkey. It seems the diaspora who live in luxury, and in their fantasy world of glorious greater Armenia, dont really care about achieving a solution, and they would prefer more tragedies befalling the real Armenians, otherwise they would lose their sacred cause. why? I mean why are you trying to force or convince turkey to apologise armenians? what is pratical benefits of this? We cannot revive death innocent armenians, and I think most of living armenians dont deserve much sympaty. what is benefit of recognizing and apologising for armenian genocide? It will only handicap our international relation. (we are supporting azeris, and I dont think this will change in short run)
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Posted By: Digenis
Date Posted: 24-Feb-2006 at 16:26
A question which reveals a democratic and open-minded person... |
Posted By: Mortaza
Date Posted: 24-Feb-2006 at 16:36
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Yeah, I am listening you and Infact If I find you true, I will change my ideas. Can you know more democratic and open-minded person. I know what is harm of recognizing but I dont know what is benefit.
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Posted By: Digenis
Date Posted: 24-Feb-2006 at 16:59
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Ask the Germans about the Holocaust. |
Posted By: Mortaza
Date Posted: 24-Feb-2006 at 17:05
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Well, most probably they will say, our cities are burned, our people were killed, we are under gun, and we had no choice. By the way, Antic greeks had wisdom. So I hope sons of them also have some wisdom. why?
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Posted By: Digenis
Date Posted: 24-Feb-2006 at 17:13
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? I m afraid u didnt understand. The Germans recognised the holocaust and blamed their former governments policies, Every democratic and civilized state and furthermore(!) every democratic person should take his responsibilities,and recognize its/his faults,without thinking for benefits! |
Posted By: mamikon
Date Posted: 24-Feb-2006 at 17:28
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I think most of living armenians dont deserve much sympaty what the hell????? |