Nobody's religion should be safe from ridicule or satire or any other form of verbal disrespect.

The sad current attempts of the UK government to make attacking or ridiculing or mocking religious beliefs illegal are failing - at least with any luck they are - partly because religious leaders are running a mile from them once they realise the implications.

Because most religious clerics earn their living by doing just that. And the politicians who foment religious strife in their search for power do just that.

If Muslims feel that respect should be paid to religion and Islam should not be vilified, then their first task should be to ensure that all other religions are fully respected and not mocked or criticised in Muslim countries.

After all Muslims and Christians alike accept the man who told us to ignore the mote in the other guy's eye and first treat the beam in our own  as inspired by God.

I have absolutely no sympathy whatsoever with the complaints about the Danish cartoons. The producers of the musical the 'Jerry Springer Show' have had death threats from 'outraged' Christians. I have no sympathy for them either. A long time ago now a contemporary of mine at Cambridge was expelled for publishing a poem talking about God (the Christian one) washing his dirty socks: I had no sympathy for the people who did that to him.

The people who are allegedly 'outraged' by the Danish cartoons are the same kind of people. If the outrage is genuine then they are childish, small-minded and petty. If it isn't, which is frequently the case, they are just using it to try and get a political edge.

But I'll stop right now.

i dont think any "imams" were involved in this, the first time these pictures were published the Arab league issued a statment to Danish governement to explain it. they were waiting answers from the Danish Governemnt and nothing was recieved.

then this month a magazine based in Norway re-published those which made Saudi Arabia withdrawing its Ambassador in Denmark to show protest and disappointment of the Government actions toward the issue.

now the people, at the first time these were published people didnt know that because the Governments through the Arab Leagu was keeping it quite and tried to solve the problem with Denmark's government.

so majority of the people didnt know anything about that.

now after the second time the other magazine published them and Saudi Arabia showing its disappointment by withdrawing its ambassador more people knew about the issue and people decided to boycott Danish product to show their protest against Denmark's news paper.

----

i think the matter went from bad to worse when the Danish government explained that as "freedom of Speach" and defended that,

even thought i think it went from "freedom of speach" to Hatred and Racisim propaganda.

the difference is the first is legal and the second isnt.

well i'll tell you something NO pictures were shown anywhere in the news nor the Tvs here. its not allowed to be shown nor published. not even by AlJazira tv.

people will protest against anybody publish them here in the middle east.

so people like my father didnt see those pictures not even one, what people here heared is that Denmark and Norway dared and insulted the Prophet and their government approved that. << this mostly what majority of the people knew.

iam here and i know what is happening.

Another question, maybe OT but anyway,

I read from everyone says "have respect to religions" why should i respect all another people's ideologies?  I don't insult or offend them, but i don't want to respect them.

I dislike communism, i respect communists as humans and i don't want to respect the communism as an ideology, should i? the same thing with Religions or capitalism or whatever. I don't want to respect them and i think it is my sovereign right, could you respect fascism or nazism?

I do not see why ALL Danes and Norwegians are blamed for the actions of one single newspaper .

I didnt even know of the Norwegian newspaper before yesterday.

Their grievance is bigger than just this.  It happens to be the straw that broke the camel's back.

Members of the Danish government said that? 

Then i can definatley see why they want to boicott and why they are so angry.

A Danish flag in Gaza

It is beyond disrespectful.  It is being used as propaganda against a people rather than merely disrespect for freedom of speach's sake.

eaglecap, you have mentioned this before and I assumed you were referring to our anti-terrorist legislation which barred religious leaders from inciting hatred or breaking the law. Could you please provide me with further information regarding this claim, so far as I am aware the only action taken against clerics was against one imam who was helping plot an attack on the city of Melbourne.

and people say America isnt as free as Europe. if this was posted in America the government wouldn�t say a thing because they cant.

You guys who are b****** and moaning about a COMIC are cry babies. Go top your room and cry it off.

There is a BIG problem in the Muslim world with crap like this. "What? news week ran a story in which the Koran was flushed down a toliet by america troops?...why we must riot and 15000 people have to die. And it isn�t out fault for not being able to control our emotions."

Then in the Netherlands, van Goughs grandson is gunned down because he makes a critical video about Islam/.

People get over your selves. what a bunch of p******. You people really do not know what freedom of press or speech is.

about 'inciting hatred'. I guess you cant say anything about the Muslims because it makes them angry and want to kill people...Otherwise, if you're nice they wouldnt want to kill you. well that what i take such ridiculous laws to mean.

And finally, GROW UP.

That's not exactly the same thing: no jewish leader or jewish mass would ever overreact this way if YHW, or Moses, David, Daniel, Isaiah, Jeremiah or ANY other jewish prophet or religious figure would have been ridiculized in a journal. The arabs, by doing such a case from nothing, and to a certain extent all the muslims (as we see here, even some "europeans") act as the arabs too, masses and �lites altogether, proove they are still looking at things from a too middle-aged standpoint. When at least the highest layer of the inteligentsia of arab world will choose to grow up intelectually and abandon the belief in the revelation parleyed by Mahomed, then, they will educate cleverly the superstitious population (as it's the case in US and partially in Europe too) to became tolerant to freedom of speech. At some point in the future, that I suspect is not very far away, the world will have enough of the arabs/muslims yelling that their "sensibilities" are trampled upon. The cartoons should be seen as an atempt to open the minds of muslims in Europe, the same muslims that produced such a killer like Van Gogh murderer, by weaning them away from stultifying propaganda that they've been subjected to, literally since birth. It dosen't matter what muslims in their various hellholes in the third world think about that, that is a process of education of Europe's youth.

All that is about the impact to the public; or a targeted public. Consciently or not, these guys from an obscure scandinavian journal were doing the same tolerance-inducing "treatment" to young muslims in Europe, as the writings of voltaire, diderot and others, in european recent history, they have done too. Just ask Randi, if scientific conferences had ever had any effect an masses.

Of course you are, childish though it is.

But not to harm people in the process.

Economic boycotts are political statements.  If you think the boycott is harmful, then we think an apology can fix that.  What does it take to publish an apology?  Freedom of speech is good and necessary as long as you don't intentionally promote lies to provoke racial and religious hatred amongst people.

What a diplomatic solution!  I see where bin Laden got his ideas from.  So is it part of your 'norms' to insult others and provoke hatred and discrimination against people?  Civilized manners you got there, eh?

Anyway, the reason it's become a big thing all over the world is because Danish Muslims decided to "internationalize" it after the newspaper had refused to apologize.

Which is better? to over-react to an insult by step over danish flag, or to stay calm and answer of insulting in your local newspaper? i assume the second one. You sure could react to the insult any way you wish, but be sure you will lose your respect among the whole world. And so you will lower yourself to the crude level as the insulters.

Mila sorry to answer you so late, yesterday it was too late at night and i wanted to sleep, you know i am soooo lazy

Well today if you want to criticize an ideology, specially religins, the followers accuse you are insulting their beliefs, mostly becouse they want to shut you up.So the word "respect" in my ear clink like "don't criticize us, don't talk about our faith, don't make us doubt" and ofcourse it means you shut up!.

as i said befor i don't want to respect some ideologies, although i would never insult or offend them,and  i respect followers of all ideologies as humans.

This was my main post:

yes, you are right, you can react and nobody want to deny it, this right, but you can't react "in any way you wish".  By saying that, you simply open some kind of pandora's box, where "reaction" follow "reaction". That's insanity. As a fragile civilization (i.e. the arab muslim countries) as you are, it is not at all your interest. It's sad that only this kind of intelectual and visual harshness get people used with the liberty of expression, but it is the only way to treat this already negected illness of the european youngster of muslim extraction. Once again, it doesn't matter what are saying the other muslim, they're not even targeted by this, in my opinion.  

Eh, no. They didn't reprint anything - they made THEIR OWN pictures, far more insulting than anything that was printed in the Danish paper. I posted the link already.

The paper in question has already apologized. Why should an instance (in this case, the Danish government) that had nothing to do with it apologize?

Mira, I wish to ask you a question: why are ou today very sensitive people to all what others say about Mahomed, while the arabs in his time, from his tribe, were so harsh with?

They called him �abtar�, that meaning something like �impotent�, or �castrated�, because he never did produce a male descendent. That was the biggest hancicap an arab could ever have.

Taken out of context. It was concerning growing fundamentalist extremism in Denmark (ie, 'bomb the infidels'), not Islam in general. That said, the Danish immigration politics aren't really helping either.

As a fragile civilization (i.e. the arab muslim countries) as you are

I dont  think they will have  much problem for selling their goods(oil), what about you?

They added 3 offensive pictures to the original 12, i call that lies, yes.

err so why do these guys want to endanger their position at their host countries?

They didn't - YOU think they did (at least not the Danes, who knows what that Norwegian fundie paper thought). That's the whole point. And in any case it doesn't warrant a reaction like this. The Bahrainian response was good - they condemned the paper, not the whole nation. Beating up or threatening Danish nationals (and even Muslims who happen to work for a Dano-Swedish company) is way over the top, and has severly damaged the opinon on Muslims in eye of the West.

I dunno. Bad translation/poor English from the queen/poor journalism/ignorance from the queen's side. I have no idea, just that she was talking about fundies.

They aren't endangering their position more than usual. These particular extremist imamas are quite disliked by their hosts as it is.

As I said, I posted links in my first post in this thread.

I don't know where you got that from.  As far as I know, no Danish nationals were beaten up anywhere in my country.  As a matter of fact, the Danish consulate did not think it was necessary to close down at this critical time.  They feel pretty secure, it seems.

The Bahraini reaction was exactly the same as that of Kuwait, Saudi Arabia and the UAE.  I've been following our news, and I'm pretty sure no such violence against Danish individuals or groups has taken place.

They aren't endangering their position more than usual. These particular extremist imamas are quite disliked by their hosts as it is.

so what are normal muslims thinking?

So why are Arab governments demanding an apology from the Danish government? Simple, they have no concept of a media that isn�t state ran (though there are some in the Arab world).

I'm sorry to say this but allot of people in the Muslim world are cry babies. "well he said something about the Prophet I�m going to cry now." When news week runs a false story, 15,000 people died in rioting in Afghanistan and Pakistan. I suppose its news weeks fault right? I mean, Muslims cant be expected to control their emotions�

If somebody wants to say something really bad about Islam, Christianity, Arabs, Americans, Germans ect ect uit is their right to do so (at least here in America). It�s the freedom thing. I know some of our muslim posters here say "I advocate freedom of speech...but..." which means you only advocate it so long as you aren�t offended. The whole freedom thing has a good and bad side to it. Sometimes you will have to take ignorant insults.  I really think you guys in the Muslim world need to grow up and stop wineing every time somebody says something bad about you or Islam.

Finally, if those Imams in Denmark have a problem with Denmark, why don�t they leave? Something tells me it isn�t so bad there. Notice how there is a boycott on products but no call for all Muslims to leave.

Mortaza, I have no idea.

With MY blessings? What the hell are you rambling about? Or did you mean my country? Well, that's funny because the Israelis are constantly accusing us of anti-Semitism since we support Palestine economically and politically. Frankly, you seem pretty misinformed generally. What are you using as your source of information? 

The man wasn't even murdered, so my point stays the same. 75 year old men sometimes die of natural causes, you know.

Originally posted by Mira Originally posted by Loknar Yes its going to be this way because you guys cant learn how to handle insults like MEN. Your pride is so overwhelming, even more than mine (and I'm a very proud person). I'm a woman, I take insults personally

I say that because the Islmaic world is led by men.

I wonder about the more shocking reaction of people in europe when the man had his his head blown off by a Muslim.

Yes its going to be this way because you guys cant learn how to handle insults like MEN. Your pride is so overwhelming, even more than mine (and I'm a very proud person).

eerr well I am a man from coast of blacksea, well okey you are right.

You can swear  me,  I can handle insults.