It's likely that he was Homosexual and his children are the result of him wanting to carry on the lineage.

 

I don;t know why its causing a fuss the various states in that region were among the first to institutionalise and promote Homosexuality.   This is no secret or something bad or wrong unless your Homophobic in which case obviously you woulnd't want to accept this reality.

 

A pinacle period of history for Homosexuals, there are so many studies relating it that's its unbelievable.

1. Ancient Greece didn't exist? Maybe you have never read history. The fact that there was not a united Greek state leads you to this misconception?

 

2. Macedonia from the ancient times till the Balkan and World wars was a region which was inhabited by many tribes but the greek population was always more numerous. Macedonia (and Epirus) was always the northern border of hellenism which in some way kept the southern Greeks safe from the northern threats something that played a major role in the  creation of the classic civilisation.

 

 

 

From the Little Book of BIG Greek Lies

BIG Greek Lie # 2

by Risto Stefov

May 2005

 

http://www.maknews.com/html/articles/stefov/stefov55.html - In BIG Greek lie # 1 we showed that there were no "Ancient Greeks" since the word "Greek" was not coined until after the Roman conquests, approximately 600 years after the establishment of the City States and approximately 150 years after they were conquered by the Macedonians.
In a similar manner we will show that the Koine language was not exclusively Greek as Greece would have us believe.

The Koine language made its way into Macedonia a little before Philip II's time. Poorly worded and misspelled inscriptions written in Koine were found in the Macedonian capital which indicates that the language was not well understood and was just making its way there.
The roots of the Koine language may have started in one of the more progressive City States, most probably Athens, but by the time it made its way to the Eastern Mediterranean, it had become the language of administration and commerce, common to all Mediterranean nations.

In Macedonia, Koine was strictly the language of the educated and was used by the court administrators and the international merchants.

By the time Koine arrived in Macedonia it was already the "lingua franca" of administration and commerce in the Eastern Mediterranean world.

Koine in those days was like English is today. In Europe for example, counties have their own languages which they use to communicate at home, but internationally they use English to communicate with other countries.

Alexander the Great was the first to take Koine out of the Mediterranean world to Asia, Africa and other worlds he conquered.
The real heroes for Koine's success were Alexander's successors the Antigonids, Selucuseds and the Ptolemies. It is well known that the Ptolemies did not only insist on using Koine but they refused to learn any other language including those of the people they ruled.
Cleopatra VII was the only Macedonian sovereign from the Ptolemaic dynasty who broke the Ptolemaic rule and learned several languages including Egyptian.

The Koine language was so deeply rooted in the old Macedonian empires that even after they were conquered by the Romans it continued to flourish. Koine was spoken by Roman intellectual even in Rome. Almost all ancient literary works were written in Koine

Let's not forget that throughout the Macedonian and Roman periods Koine, in spite of its popularity with the educated and elite, it remained a language of Administration and commerce. Koine was never a language of the common people..............................

 

 

There's 15 more I don't know where to start.

 

Dude, what are you talking about? "Greek" comes from "Graekos" which is the name of an ancient greek tribe in Epirus. This name was used widely until the 19th century name by the Greeks. What is this about "slaves"?

Originally posted by Flipper Conclusion: We've been calling ourselves Hellenes for thousands of years. In modern days, depending on our herritage we call ourselves for Minor Asian, Macedonian, Peloponisian, Kretan, Cypriots, Dodekanisioi, Chiotes, Epirotes, Kerkireoi, Eboites and the list goes on...Do you see a pattern in this? Obviously the world don't have a clue about how we classify ourserlves (or how we call ourselves). Athenians and Macedonians still fight each other about sports and dialect. You wouldn't understand that or hear about it if you didn't live here. For outsiders all these are "all greek" to them.

 

That is true and I want to add something. In modern days there is a cruel fight between Macedonians and Athenians (representing southern Greece) about sports and their teams, about their dialects (for Athenians the macedonian dialects sound strange and vice-versa), their way of living etc, things that remind us the ancient fight between athenians and macedonians.

 

what do you want to prove? That there were not ancient Greeks because they didn't use the name "Greeks" for themselves? They formed the greek nation and they knew that. Read ancient greek historians please!!!! That's enough with these "historians" who have never read anything of the ancient texts.

 

About the koine language,you said that it wasn't exclusively greek...what do you mean? Where is the prooves in the text of...Risto Stefov (one of the advocates of the "modern macedonian nation").

@Bulldog your link turns out to be a petty nationalistic source with no credibilidity.  I can’t seem to get over the notion that your persistence to build up a paradoxical case has a well hiden agenda inside. I thought anyhow the topic spoke of Alexander's sexuality and not the imaginary theories of the city states origins.

 

 

 

 

AE's code of conduct ;

 

7. Derogatory remarks to individual members or social groups on grounds of their age, gender, religion or sexual orientation

 

 

 

That actually is totally false and not proven. Aristotle�s dictum still stands: �He who asserts must also prove.� When you make a claim, the burden of proof is on you to demonstrate that claim is to the fullest as being correct/right/true and this suppose claim has never been proven. Fox remarks on the subject: "Later gossip presumed that Bagoas was Alexander�s lover. This is uncertain."[xi]  Even the lesbian writer Mary Renault, the patron saint of all those who seek to prove Alexander�s bisexuality, clearly acknowledges, "No historian states plainly whether they were physical lovers."[xii]  Like she didn't have a personal agenda when she wrote her fictional work about Alexander being gay/bi/or whatever.

The only one to suggested anything of the sort was Quintus Curtius Rufus, the only Roman historian who's works survived about Alexander and writes from the 1st century AD, but his source of information is considered "bad" by many legit historians given that his "source" was Cleitarchus, which contains many serious errors in itself. Curtius work shows ignorance of geography, chronology and technical military knowledge, he focuses mostly on Alexander's supposed "psychosis" that when further scrutinized one can see how very flawed in errors even that part in Curtius work is ...which is why he as a "source" is considered "bad".  Alexander's relationship towards Bagoas being anything "romantic" is not historical fact but based on Curtius' "bad" material. Curtius is also the only person to describe Bagoas as "eromenos" (beloved) towards Alexander, a term used for a younger male lover. From Curtius' work later writers such as the 20th century writer Mary Renault, who by the way was a lesbian writer and not even trained in classicist, took that faulty info and put her own spin to them to create such "classics" as "The Persian Boy", who some idiots out there, this is not directed to you btw, call her fictional works as "historical".

Plus lets not forget that Alexander was influenced a lot by his teacher, Aristotle, and anyone who has read Aristotle's ideas on same sex love will know that he believed such acts were deformed conditions brought about either by natural disorder or by habit. Aristotle's rants against such acts would more then likely be considered hate speech today. I also would like for someone to answer me: in a culture that was supposedly so openly gay/bisexual/pedestric why is it that so little literature has been found on such activities, suggesting that such practices were not as widely accepted as some modern "scholars" would like us to think.

 

The "probably bisexual" is interesting and reflects what is often the case in a society based on assumptions fed by a popular culture that thrives on innuendo and does not research the actual sources and facts for him/herself but depends on sixth sources to feed him/her the info....and yes I am talking about modern society here.

 

Oh and to the guy who is trying to steal Greek history again: you've got no case, give it up.  Alexander, Macedonia and Macedonians have always been Hellenes.

 

That said, I'd like to say that I've been reading the forums for a while now and quite enjoyed them. Guess this will be my first post on here. Hope I can contribute some interesting material as the material I have been reading on here so far.

 

It is likely that you have never read any ancient source about Alexander therefore its not suprising your assertions are that ignorant.

 

 

As he afterwards contemplated the wealth and display of Darius, he was seized with admiration of such magnificence.  Hence it was that he first began to indulge in luxurious and splendid banquets, and fell in love with his captive Barsine for her beauty, by whom he had afterwards a son that he called Hercules.[

 

 

At any rate Alexander, so it seems, thought it more worthy of a king to subdue his own passions than to conquer his enemies, and so he never came near these women, nor did he associate with any other before his marriage, with the exception only of Barsine.  This woman, the widow of Memnon, the Greek mercenary commander, was captured at Damascus.  She had received a Greek education, was of a gentle disposition, and could claim royal descent, since her father was Artabazus who had married one of the Persian king�s daughters.  These qualities made Alexander the more willing � he was encouraged by Parmenio, so Aristobulus tells us � to form an attachment to a woman of such beauty and noble lineage.

 

He also held weddings at Susa for himself and for the Companions; he himself married Darius� eldest daughter Barsine, and, as Aristobulus says, another wife as well, Parysatis, the youngest daughter of Ochus. He had already taken to wife Roxane, the daughter of Oxyartes the Bactrian. To Hephaestion he gave Drypetis, another daughter of Darius, sister to his own wife (for he desired Hephaestion�s children to be cousins of his own); to Craterus, Amastrine daughter of Oxyatres, Darius� brother; to Perdiccas,  a daughter of Atropates, satrap of Media; to Ptolemy the bodyguard and Eumenes the royal secretary, the daughters of Artabazus, Artacama and Artonis respectively ; to Nearchus the daughter of Barsine and Mentor; to Seleucus the daughter of Spitamenes the Bactrian, and similarly to the other Companions the noblest daughters of Persians and Medes, numbering about eighty.

 

 

Note here we arent talking the Barsine, widow of Memnon. But Barsine, elsewhere found as Stateira.

For Alexander's first mistress in Asia, by whom he had his son Hercules, was Barsine the daughter of Artabazus; and in the distribution of the Persian ladies amongst his captains, Alexander gave Apame, one of his sisters, to Ptolemy, and another, also called Barsine, to Eumenes.

 

 

Soon after, Alexander assumed the attire of the Persian monarchs, as well as the diadem, which was unknown to the kings of Macedonia, as if he gave himself up to the customs of those whom be had conquered. And lest such innovations should be viewed with dislike, if adopted by himself alone, he desired his friends also to wear the long robe of gold and purple. That he might imitate the luxury too, as well as the dress of the Persians, he spent his nights among troops of the king�s concubines of eminent beauty and birth. To these extravagances he added vast magnificence in feasting; and lest his entertainments should seem jejune and parsimonious, he accompanied his banquets, according to the ostentation of the eastern monarchs, with games; being utterly unmindful that power is accustomed to be lost, not gained, by such practices.

 

 

Then he put on the Persian diadem and dressed himself in the white robe and the Persian sash and everything else except the trousers and the long-sleeved upper garment.  He distributed to his companions cloaks with purple borders and dressed the horses in Persian harness. In addition to all this, he added concubines to his retinue in the manner of Dareius, in number not less than the days of the year and outstanding in beauty as selected from all the women of Asia.  [SIZE="3"]Each night these paraded about the couch of the king so that he might select the one with whom he would lie that night. Alexander, as a matter of fact, employed these customs rather sparingly and kept for the most part to his accustomed routine, not wishing to offend the Macedonians

 

Pausanias was in love with his wife, Apelles with Alexander�s mistress, she was called Pancaste and came from Larisa.  She is said to have been the first woman Alexander slept with

And yet Alexander conferred honour on him [Apelles] in a most conspicuous instance; he had such an admiration for the beauty of his favourite mistress named Pancaspe, , that he gave orders that she should be painted in the nude by Apelles, and then discovering that the artist while executing the commission had fallen in love with the woman, he presented her to him, great-minded as he was and still greater owing to his control of himself, and of a greatness proved by this action as much as by any other victory: because he conquered himself, and presented not only his bedmate but his affection also to the artist, and was not even influenced by regard for the feelings of his favourite in having been recently the mistress of a monarch and now belonged to a painter.

 

 

The idea of Alexander "probably bisexual" or "sexual" relationships is interesting in the sense that it reflects what is often the case in a society based on assumptions fed by a popular culture that thrives on innuendo instead of actually searching out the main legit sources and reading them for ones self and not relying on sixth source information from people who obviously have have alternative motives for saying what they do. So the "may be he/they were" shows that for most part the "proof" is nonexistent and without proof one is talking mere fantasy and allowing such fantasy to go unchallenged is the indulgence of fools and mental vagrants....yes I am talking about modern society here. 

 

Originally posted by Se�mis of Arierep the chronicals say that and in ancient greece and ancient civilizations this is a thing well accepted and a thibg that show the status of the persons

 

Those false ideas people hold are comforting but ultimately self-deluding views of the late twentieth century. Homosexuality existed in Greece, just as it has existed since the beginning of human history in all societies and cultures, but not while describing the mistranslated 'erastes- erwmenos' relationships. However, while it did exist in ancient Greece, it was never legally sanctioned, thought to be a cultural norm, and the risk of engaging in such activity was serious punishments such as exile and death. If a person was discovered to be a homosexual, he would either be executed or sent into exile.  The only way a homosexual would have been "accepted" in ancient Greek society is if he/she came out of the closet. In that case, he/she would be permitted to live under the law known as grafi etairisios, which basically means this individual would loose all his citizen rights and those caught breaking the prohibitions which grafi etairisios law tells them to follow, would be convicted and put to death. So basicaly if you were a homosexual who has gone public in ancient Greece, you didn't even exist. 

 

In antiquity they practices in pederasty was seen as an "educational institution" for the inculcation of moral and cultural values. Two very difference concepts of what people are trying to imply ancient view on homesexuality was. Such relations were not only practiced in Ancient Greece but ancient Rome and were well documented among other ancient peoples too, such as the the Celts and various Germanic peoples such the Heruli and the Taifali. As idealized by the ancient Greeks and Romans, pederasty was a relationship and bond�whether sexual or chaste�between an adolescent boy and an adult man outside of his immediate family, mostly practiced as you so rightfully stated among the elite in a society but differed from society to society and the relationships were not always physical.  The regular Greeks view on pederasty was usually degrading and made fun of. While there were Greek and Roman men engaged in relations with both women and boys, exceptions to the rule were known, some avoiding relations with women and others rejecting relations with boys.  But they never viewed homesexuality as being ok, acceptable or correct. There are instances of ancient Greeks who did not 'settle down' (i.e. Agathon) but they're thought of as being very odd by their fellow citizens and are often ridiculed, for example by Aristophanes. One element of ancient Greek society which is used to promote homosexuality in ancient Greece is the largery misqouted, mistranslated and misinterpreted quote which claim the Sacred band of Thebes. This is what the non-Greek translations of that quote says, and notice what word is used below and how it is mis-translated, either by accident or deliberately, into English:

 

"an army should be made up of lovers and their loves"

The original Greek text says:
"genesthai e stratopedon eraston te kai paidikon." ~Symposium 178e

For those who need translation: paidikon = pederasty and erastes can mean either friends or lovers. It becomes even more evident that this is an intentional mistranslation when we read only one line above, the phrase "abstaining from all dishonour". What is interesting with this whole subject is that the biggest supporters of homosexuality being openly accepted in ancient Greece is put forth by openly homosexual "academians" such as David Halperin, Gore Vidal, John Winkler, Jonathan Ned Katz, John Boswell and Michel Foucault. It was Walter Pater (1870's a poet and tutor) he and his band of "merries" that just out of a weird coincidence were all homosexuals, originally began this fiasco of a theory in Oxford. We find them introducing a totally new "theory", in which Platonic love has nothing to do with "phyche" but is totally based on phisical attraction. Later we find a list of wanna-be "historians" of Hellinic sexuality, see: Michel Foucault, John Boswell, John Winkler and David Halperin that were or are all homosexuals, strange coincidence once again [roll] striving to make some connection between homos and Hellinism. The reason, of course, is simple and I mention it above, similar to those of Eurocentrics and Afrocentrics. Ancient civilizations such as Greece's have always been viewed as a model of civilisation. So what better way to justify their lifestyles than by connecting it to one of greatest civilizations and thus legitimise same-sex? While today the words 'heterosexual', 'homosexual' and 'lesbianism', terms which again by some strange coincidence were coined after Pater and CO's fiasco of a theory, simply denote the sexual preference of an individual, the ancient Greeks while never had absolutely any kind of definition for 'heterosexuals'.. used the term 'kinaidos'.. in order to describe 'homosexuals' and their preference. Why this is of some interest/significance?  As it was said while the terms today simply define one's sexual preference, in ancient Greece the term 'kinaidos' was actually the word used and shows us what they believed.. as Epicletus has written 'the beginning of knowledge comes from the analysis of names'... so we have:

 

'kinaidos' = �he who �kinei thn aido� from
�kineo�= � to move , to meddle with things sacred� and
�aidos� = �the personification of a conscience, of shame�

 

So in reality the very word's meaning in ancient Greek means 'he who provokes shame'... also keep in mind that 'Aidos' was a demi-Goddes always accompanied by Nemesis. Lets see what does the

 'academic' Foucault, a pioneer on ancient Greeks acceptance of homosexualty, says about this issue:

 

"Greek men, were bisexual and could, simultaneously or in turn, be enamoured of a boy or a girl. To their way of thinking, what made it possible to desire a man or a woman was simply the appetite that nature had implanted in man's heart for 'beautiful' human beings, whatever their sex might be". ( Uses of Pleasure (1984), Vl II, History of Sexuality)

 

Wow, well now there is some "unbiased" reporting for you.   Other "great" supporters of homosexuality being part of the "norm" of ancient Greece include one Kate Mortensen, who was a main speaker at the International Symposium on Ancient Macedonia in Thessaloniki. Its funny that the main stream English news outlets bring up the point Mortensen and her collegues were "hackled" during this event but fail to point out  why Mortensen and her crew were made fun of. The main reason is because when challenged to point out where in the original ancient Greek untranslated text does it say what they claim the text says, Mortensen and her crew admitted they could not even read the untranslated texts, never mind translate it. Very telling in my opinon, historians who are supposed to be taken as legit academics who can't even read the work they are suppose to be "experts" in? Yeah, some creditable sources they are.  Not sure whatever became of Mortensen, she is not heard much these days. Last I heard she was writting papers on breastfeeding, great use of her "classical" teaching there or lack off I might add. 

 

As for the "lesbian" 7th centry BC poetess Sappho, it should be pointed out that from all her works which have so far been found, only one has been found intact with many of her fragments in that book being translated into modern era, with translators filling in the gaps as to what she might have actually been writing, in essence modern translators were writing Sappho's poems for her. 

 

As for Plato, despite his suppose participance in such activities in his early life, in his later life Plato was among those who spoke up against the traditional Athenian pederasty and in his Laws dialogue he recommends prohibition on such activities ALL TOGETHER. Which is why I believe can all thank Plato for Christianity's homophobia where he associates such activities in The Laws as: "Shameful, Unclean and Unholy"; as he specifically states in the quote I posted above "Whether these matters are to be regarded as sport, or as earnest, we must not forget that this pleasure is held to have been granted by nature to male and female when conjoined for the work of procreation; the crime of male with male, or female with female, is an outrage on nature and a capital surrender to lust of pleasure." ~(Laws I 636a-d) 

 

Alot of what you would find in today's Christian philosophical concept is a fusion of Hebrew and Greek thought, the Greek derived from Hellenic philosophy of Epicureanism, Stoicism, Aristotelian and Platonic idealism. Plato was so influencial in Western culture that the term Platonic is in refrence to his works. Which is were such terms as Platonic love is derived from. The early christian fathers believed that to have converts during late Hellenistic times, specifically since Hellenistic culture remained dominant in the Eastern part of the Roman Empire, into the new faith, they needed to used elements which the people back then were familiar with. Henche where quite a bit of  ancient Hellenistic philosophical idealism comes into play and make their way into Christianity idealism.

 

"I maintain that our regulation on this head must go forward and proclaim that our citizens must not be worse than fowls and many other animals which are produced in large broods, and which live chaste and celibate lives without sexual intercourse until they arrive at the age for breeding; and when they reach this age they pair off, as instinct moves them, male with female and female with male;" (Plato Laws 8.840d)

 

"We might forcibly effect one of two things in this matter of sex-relations,--either that no one should venture to touch any of the noble and freeborn save his own wedded wife, nor sow any unholy and bastard seed in fornication, nor any unnatural and barren seed in sodomy,--or else we should entirely abolish love for males." (Plato Laws 8.841d b)

 

Sound familiar?  Stay celibate until you arrive of age; pair off male to female; sex with only your wedded spouse; do not have mindless sex or unnatural sex which he equals to sodomy...hmmm, lets see where did we hear that before?

 

Ancient Greeks believed the "inhuman chaos of nature" and perceived human order as the triumph of the mind and culture over the brute forces of nature. Eros, is not "love" but "sexual desire." It is a representation of how sex attacks the mind and breaks man's will. Consequently, sexual attraction as madness is a theme that recurs throughout Greek literature. The ancient Greeks saw sex and violence as two sides of the same irrational coin.

 

For whatever their political modern views are, people seem to have this false misconception that in ancient Greece homosexuality was "accepted" when infact it was controversial and according to ancient Greek laws if you were deemed a homosexual you could loose your civil rights, be banished, or the worse of them all loose your life for it. "Pederasty" and homosexuality were two very different philosophical concepts to ancient Greeks, and that in itself was a complex issue which varied from city-state to city-state and colony to colony.  Aristophanes in his plays portrays homosexual characters as corrupt and decadence, check ou his comedy The Knights for examples of this. Also read Aeschine's speech Against Timarchus of 346 BCE, which is by far the longest text addressing homosexual behavior we have from the Classical Greek world and one of the few legal documents of the time which tells us the legal implications of a person being accused of the subject matter, in this case engaging in same sex, and what the general population views on it were. In short Timarchus takes Aeschine to court and charges him with treason. Aeschine counters by accusing Timarchus with "corruption" and one of the charges against Timarchus is homosexuality and prostitution.  According to Athenian law Timarchus forfeited his right to speak before the people and the court because of his corrupt acts. In the end Aeschine won the vote and Timarchus was barred from politics. So I find it pretty humorous that ancient Greece is used by some to promote whatever modern belief they might have, for or against homosexuality. One last thing to keep in mind: contrary to what some would like us to believe, of the inumerable quantity of writings, literature, plays and written records of daily life in ancient Greece and history of the civilization which the Greeks legated to posterity, only a minuscule 5% of writings make some mention about homosexuality. As for painted vases, out of all the thousands of ancient Greek painted vases that have so far been discovered, over 80,000 have been found in Attica alone,  only .02% have an overtly homosexual/bisexual theme on them. Pretty low percentage for a socieity that is so openly homosexual, don't ya think? From the inconsequential evidence available only individuals with alternative motives would manufacture allegations of such an unsustainable nature. Given the narrow selection found of such activities, (i.e. pederasty/homosexual/bisexual) in literature and artifacts, it should be kept in perspective that there is no real reason to believe such activities were the "norm" or representative of ancient Greek society as a whole any more than media distrubution of modern pornography(child, same sex, etc.) indicate what is normal and accepted in modern times by the majority of the population. It should also be noted and kept in mind that homosexuals do have more rights and protection nowdays then they ever would have had living in ancient Greece. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Thank you, bg_turk, for the welcome. 

 

"Eteriosis" is derived from "etairos" which means companion, which is associated with the now mostly mistranslated "hetaires" = "whores" modern idea.  Infact in ancient Greece "hetaires" were described as companions not whores. I.E. the term "companion" being used to reffer to same-sex partner by some people.  If one reads Aeschynes 1.29 what he says is:

 

"h peporneumenos=prostitute, physin, h etairikos=companion"

"either prostitute or as a companion" (in other words: as a prostitute = peporneumenos/πεπορνευμένος or as a companion = etairikos....his beeyach  ) 

 

If the law was meant about selling ones body as a whore does the term that would have been used was "porne" from "pernimi".  The ancient Greek word "porne" derived from the ancient verb "pernimi" = "to sell", was first used during 7th century Greece to mean whore/prostitute/harlot.

Originally posted by Alkiviades there are many more inconsistencies there, and I could point out those as well, if one asks. Homoerotism was not banned in ancient Greece, far from it. At least in Athens and Thebes it wasn't (we know of some ban that existed in Sparta, though...). One might interprete the available data differently, and "prove" that there is no definite "yay" on homoerotism, but I think that would be a biased and inaccurate interpretation.

 

The biased and inaccurate interpretations have been made and started by people with their own agendas who have alternative motives to begin with, which is why I said intentional manipulation of historic facts to present some people modern ideologies in order to justify their personal believes by connecting it to what has always been perceived as a model for civilization is totally wrong. So the "they may have been" shows that for most part the "proof" is nonexistent and without proof one is talking mere fantasy and allowing such fantasy to go unchallenged is the indulgence of fools and mental vagrants. As a historian in this field said to me yesterday, since we were having the same discussion:  "Historians write about topics they are passionate about, and so often have their judgement colored by their biases about their topics. Often the historian is fulfilling an agenda rather than accurately portraying historical accounts."

 

The Thebean stragetic battle field has always been that the paidikon(young students) = (strength) who formed the front lines while the older (teacher) = (knowledge) formed the rear lines.  Gorgidas combined the young=strength with the old=knowledge to form an unbeatable "army of one" not some "army of lovers".  Anyone with military background can tell how unfeasible and stupid an "army of lovers" sounds. On the other hand it has proven time and again that when mixing knowledge with strength one can do amazing things. 

 

Plus lets not forget that according to Greek mythology the origins of the negative impact "homosexuality" has on a person was in Thebes. Where one of their own brought destruction upon his family line and the citizens of Thebes by becoming the first "kinaidos".  Why would a people who's own mythology warned about the destruction such acts brought upon their citizens view "homosexuality" in a positive light? 

 

As far as the Spartans are concerned, no contemporary sources and no archaeological evidence points to support the wide spread assumption that pederasty was wide stread in Sparta.  Infact most of the best ancient sources on Sparta, such as Xenophon and Plutarch explicitly deny such activities.

 

 

 

 

 

http://www.helleniclife.net/myth_of_homosexuality_in_anc.htm - http://www.helleniclife.net/myth_of_homosexuality_in_anc.htm

 

Sorry, http://allempires.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=4302&FID=11 - darkwolf , but seriouly there is no evidence that Alexander was bisexual at all except from dubious writers taken from later on gossip.  The two main ancient sources which most scholars consider more crediable on Alexander, Arrian and Plutarch, do not mention any bisexual relationships of Alexander.  And even advocates who support this myth such as Lane and Renault admit when challenged that this just a theory based on later gossip from dubious writers and NOT on what the ancient sources, of whom most scholars consider more crediable, write about Alexander. 

 

Regarding the relationship between Alexander and Hephaiston:

"Later gossip claimed that Alexander had a love affair with Hephaiston, no contemporary history states this." ~Robin Lane Fox (The Search for Alexander, Little, Brown and Co. Boston, 1980, p. 261. )

 

Regarding the relationship between Alexander and Bagoas:

"Later gossip presumed that Bagoas was Alexander�s lover. This is uncertain." ~Robin Lane Fox (The Search for Alexander ~ Little, Brown and Co. Boston, 1980, p. 67.)

 

Bagoas and Alexander again:

"No historian states plainly whether they were physical lovers." ~ Mary Renault (The Nature of Alexander, Pantheon Books: New York, 1975, p. 47. )

 

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bagoas_%28courtier%29 -  

 

I agree, because what really mattered was the fact that he conquered the world and died undefeated.

Show me  then where you know that Alexander was bisexual? As and the others half Greeks dear IrishNation?

Originally posted by JanusRook Bisexual would be the closest thing you could call him. I think just plain sexual would sum it up. I mean from what I've read the guy probably got off in battle. <in a figurative sense, like he enjoyed it too much>

 

A friend of a friend who leaves next door to a man who is friends with a historian told me that Alexander is gay.Don't you believe me?Go ask my friend!By the way the movie was nice,but Troy was better!

 

 

 

a strategic Genius

a leader of men

a lowsy movie.

 

the above are proven facts - the rest about him being gay bi hi or sci fi are just speculations or rubbish spawn ..i can say Genghis Khan was gay,since at that age and time it was customary between mongols..Kemal ataturk as a friend of a friend of Jeru's friend who went to the army with a friend of mine claimes liked a stiffy now and then..hence the term OTHOMANIKO..

 

 

This is what i'm intersted mostly,cause even if he was of different origin but still made these remarkable achievements,he would still be Great!His origins are for, the greeks to be proud of,and for the world's respect.

 

@einherjarrr

 

Do you know my friend?

 

 

!!!!!

 

No it wasn't, infact the exact opposite is true, and I wouldn't be using wiki, a site that anyone with fingers could edit, as a source of valuable information. I suggest actually reading Xenophon, Constitution of the Lacedaimonians 2.13  and Symposium (The Banquet) 8.70 which state clearly how wrong your assumptions above are.

 

 

Then the queen came with a group of ladies of noble birth who made libations from golden bowls.  The queen herself placed her little son at Alexander�s knees, and from him gained not only a pardon but also the restitution of her former status, for she retained the title of queen.  Some have held the belief that it was the queen�s beauty rather than Alexander�s compassionate nature that won her this,  and it is a fact that she subsequently bore a son who was named Alexander, whoever his father was.

 

 

I agree with you 100%, and my quote was from Ptolemy l of Egypt.

 

 

There is not any quote or reference  from any ancient writer regarding the supposing Alexander's homosexuality. This is myth that built in the last quorter of the 20th cent from the modern writers.

 

Sinora you are totally wrong in believing that  bisexuality was common in ancient Greece and your "history professor" is basing most of that BS info on modern interpetations views put forth by 19th century "scholars", who they themselves were openly Gay/Bisexual, and Dover, and anyone who is familiar with Dover will tell you his info is tented with bias. 

 

Akiras, to answer your question, no there isn't any ancient text which say this to be true.  What people seem to fail in understanding is the concepts of "eros" in ancient Greece is not what some modern individuals think it to be.  The following is a post which was posted by another poster in a message board and the person who wrote it is very well informed and knowledgable in ancient Greek society:

 

"Philip, I don�t get what exactly your question means (I guess it is due to my poor command of the English language, even though my good friend Apro tells you otherwise ). But if you ask me if the Spartan law allowed homosexuality or encouraged it in any way, my answer is �NO�, plainly because there isn�t evidence for that, on the contrary various ancient Greek sources/writers (who are not Spartan themselves) tell us exactly the opposite. For instance:

Aristotle the great philosopher, writes that the Spartans are people who don�t appreciate homosexuality and don�t practise sodomy, as opposed to some other people.
Xenophon, the famous Athenian historian and philosopher, in his historical piece of writing called �Lacedaemonians� Politeia/Country�, reports that Lycurgus (the great Spartan legislator and founder of Sparta�s law) praised as the most worthwhile form of education the admiration of a virtuous man for the soul of a child and his endeavor to shape that child/boy into a good fellow-warrior, so that he could live well in his companionship. Conversely, Lycurgus considered any kind of carnal passion for the body of a child/boy to be a great source of shame.
Plutarch the biographer also confirms the aforementioned about Lycurgus and the Spartan law.
Given also that the Spartans were people who deeply respected their law (it was obeying their law that they fell to the last man fighting bravely a lost battle at Thermopylae :-)), it is quite unlikely that homosexuality/pederasty was the common practice of the Spartan society, as it is claimed today by some non-Greek scholars who misinterpret the institution of �pederasty� in ancient Sparta. Is it the problem that they are not Greek themselves, or that the present-day thought is so mistrustful of customs which brought men so close to their fellow men in a very ancient, so distant society?

As an aside here, let me mention what was the exact meaning of the ancient Greek word �eros� and its derivatives, so that you be able to understand more easily what the institution of �pederasty� was in ancient Sparta:

In ancient Greece, Eros, i.e. the little winged God who was Aphrodite�s son, was the incarnation of love. According to the ancient Greeks (as in the famous work by Plato, the Symposium, it is reported) there are two kinds of love: the first has to do with the satisfying of our fleshy desires (sex), while the second aims at the good of the person that someone loves, that is at his or her moral perfection. So the ancient word �eros� has a double meaning, and when I write it without quotation marks (eros) it will denote the first kind of love whose purpose is the sensual or carnal pleasure, but when I write it with quotation marks (�eros�) it will denote the second kind of �love� mentioned above. That kind of �eros� is the one about which I�ll talk from now on.

�Eros� is connected with the ancient Greek verb �ero�, which means neither �I love� nor �I�m in love�, but �I long for, I yearn�, i.e. �I�m continually seeking through my soul for whatever I�m lacking�. A psychic need was contained within this verb, which sought a deeper satisfaction. When I �ero� somebody/something, I am an �erastes� of him/it, which means I�m a �lover� of him/it but not in the sense of the �sexual partner� but in the sense of the �admirer/worshipper�. So someone can be an �erastes�/�lover� of wisdom and valor for instance, which means that he never gives up searching for these virtues because he�s an admirer of them and he longs for them. Another paradigm is that of the great philosopher Socrates, who presented himself as an �erastes�/�lover� to his students, because through the cultivation of their souls he aimed at their moral perfection, i.e. at the beauty of their souls. And �eros� always turns towards the beautiful, as the flower turns towards the sun (i.e. the human soul always longs for the beautiful). From the aforementioned it is obvious that there could be �eros� between two individuals without any bodily contact. This is also known as �Platonic eros�, and sensual or carnal pleasure is not its purpose because it can never fulfill us as individuals, and because we gain it by exploiting in some way the beloved person (�eromenos� in ancient Greek), who is thus diminished in this manner.

Sorry if all the aforementioned sound scholarly and boring, but �pederasty� in ancient Sparta is directly related to the concept of �eros� which I�ve just analyzed. As I mentioned above, �eros� which has nothing to do with fleshy desires and carnal pleasure always turns to the beautiful (i.e. the human soul always longs for the beautiful). The ancient Greeks have always been �erastes�/�lovers� of measure/moderation, harmony and beauty. The beautiful was worthy of every form of admiration, respect and honor by the ancient Greeks. For instance, the beautiful, healthy and harmonious human body (as the ancient Greeks immortalized it in statues and sculptures of unique beauty), whether it belong to a man or a woman, was an object of admiration. And since the beauty is first and foremost a characteristic of youth, let us examine the so-called �pederasty� in ancient Sparta:

While the word pederasty in all languages means an erotic perversion, in classical antiquity it was also used in the sense of a pedagogical institution, based on the pure and disinterested �love� of boys, i.e. on the concept of �eros� as I analyzed it above, and not on homosexual relations with them. That pedagogical institution was used not only in ancient Sparta but also in ancient (classical) Athens to some extent, only that in Sparta it was officially enacted by the city-state. From now on when I speak of that ancient pedagogical institution I�ll use the word with quotation marks (�pederasty�), in contradistinction to pederasty without quotation marks, which will mean what we all mean today by this word (i.e. a man who has sex with a boy).

Back to ancient Sparta, the so-called �pederasty� was (at least from the 6th to the 4th century BC) a part of the obligatory education of all the little male Spartans, which was called �agogH�. The suitable age for adolescents to receive this education (i.e. the �pederasty�) was thought to be from twelve to eighteen. At that age they could be assigned to an adult man as their companion, who in agreement with the customs had to be over twenty years of age. So it was very good fortune and an honor for a boy when a citizen who enjoyed general public esteem, took him under his wing. Conversely, it was shameful for a boy if he did not have the honor of such a friendship. This relationship was also marked by the consent of the boy�s father, who felt proud when a worthy man chose his son. This custom/institution of �pederasty� had its roots in Doric practices (the Spartans belonged to the Doric tribe). The Dorians, just like the Spartans, were warlike people, and they introduced the custom of �pederasty� because the men lived in army camps and by the very nature of things the older men became the teachers and guides of the future warriors/soldiers.

In such a �pederastic� relationship, the adult man was the �erastes�/�lover� of the boy (�paedikon�), a �lover� not in the sense of the �sexual partner� but in the sense I have analyzed it above. That is, the �lover� felt admiration for a beautiful young boy who selected to teach/train, and that admiration for the beauty of the boy (both, the beauty of its body and its soul) was the main stimulus for the man to proceed with the selection of that boy whose inner world he wished to mould so as to make him into the proper/good (�kalos kagathos�) man. The �lover� had with the boy ceaseless discussions, which dealt with a great range of subjects. Through these discussions the man tried to inspire the youth with moral values, such as obedience to the laws, the ways of proper behavior, nobility and ethos, so that he would become a courageous and moral man. The adolescent in his turn had to respect his mentor, and deeply esteem him and to show by his behavior how obliged he was to him.

Such a �pederastic� relationship was a �love� on a psychic level, a spiritual bond, �eros� without the accompaniment of Aphrodite as the ancient Greeks said, i.e. �eros� without any bodily love/sexual intercourse. In fact, as I have already mentioned, Lycurgus and the Spartan law forbade pederasty as we mean it today (i.e. the pederasty which includes sexual intercourse), considered it to be a punishable offense and the courts rigorously persecuted it. It was strictly forbidden for the adolescent to assume any posture that facilitated contact with the backside or introduction of the male member into any part of his body, and play in this way the role of a woman (i.e. the role of a carnal object). That would be humiliating, since women were reckoned to be second class/inferior than men beings back then. The young boy was destined to become a citizen, and as a future citizen should not be dishonored in that way. It would be debasing for the adolescent to find himself in the passive position of humiliation and submission. Just how disgraceful they considered this to be is shown for instance by a representation on a ancient red-figured vase. This representation depicts a Persian in a posture which is declared by the inscription underneath: �I am Evrymedon. I have submitted myself�. Behind him there can be seen an arriving Greek, gesturing with his genitals in such a way there can be no doubt as to his intentions. This vase, painted after the victory of the Greeks against the Persians, triumphantly proclaims (just like some people would do today when their team wins at football/basketball ): �We scre*wed the Persians!�

From the aforementioned it is obvious that �as opposed to what many people think today� �pederasty� in ancient Sparta was not male homosexuality, but the primary method of raising the male youth. It was considered to be an important pedagogical factor/institution, which, examined from a moral point of view, had its own special character that was maintained on an aesthetic, religious and educational basis. Its purpose was the maintenance of institutions, and the elevation of social and personal virtue with the assistance of the city-state. This ethic that was built up around �eros� in relationships between men with virtue as their aim, was the source of great valor and the secret of male friendship. As difficult as it is to understand today, this �love� had nothing humiliating, corrupting or effeminate about it. It was the force that gave rise to heroism and directed valor to remarkable heights. Because �eros� lends a divine spirit and makes men braver, and furthermore it is the best way to maintain the line of battle. And indeed, the salvation and victory of the warriors lay in their friendship which formed the line. A brilliant proof of this assertion concerning this particular form of male behavior was the so-called Sacred Band of Thebes. They were called �the company of �lovers��, many times sarcastically by those who were envious of the rise of Thebes to power. Just like the Spartans, they were reckoned to be great warriors/soldiers, and they showed at the battlefield the great valor and self-sacrifice of the Spartans: in the battle of Chaeroneia, for instance, the soldiers of the Sacred Band of Thebes fell to the last man (just like the 300 Spartans at Thermopylae) fighting bravely against the Macedonian king Philip B�. Deeply moved by their great valor, the victorious king Philip said: �A curse on those who have treacherously hinted that such men could have done or accepted anything vile�

Since it is not my intention to show any form of bias, let me also add that (even though there isn�t sufficient evidence for that) we can�t exclude the possibility that there were indeed some homosexual relationships between men in ancient Sparta. Sexual deviations have existed in all places and in all eras, and ancient Sparta/Greece shouldn�t be excluded from this rule. Furthermore, let me also add that anything that occurs between two people that is completely consensual is a personal matter - and respected. But if such male homosexual relationships existed indeed, they constituted by no means the rule, and they didn�t characterize the ancient Spartan society, as I have already argued. In other words, ancient Sparta (/Greece) is by no means the cradle of perversion, as many people tend to reckon her today! "

~mvarda

Oliver Stone made a film called "Alexander's Sex Life".

What do his sexual preferences have to do with his other historical achievements?

Back then bisexuality was something less politically sensitive.

Some radical Spartan militarists used bisexuality to make the warriors actually "love" each other so they would be even more willing to die for each other in battle, but these same soldiers were then encouraged & expected to eventually marry and raise a family.  The Spartans clearly went through too many extremes in their quests for military perfection.

 

 

Alexander was "bi" and the Easter Bunny is Pink and comes down a chimney.   And while you are believing that I also have a bridge to sell you in Brookline and a Moon ride to outerspace.

 

While I'm quoting mvarda's great posts, here is another interesting one

What supposed to do with the thread if your provocated quote is truth  ?

 

Christianity was the one that spread it when tried to change the decadent mentality that existed at the end of the Antiquity and the decline of the Middle Ages. Now, it seems Barbarians and Christians agreed in the topic homosexuality was a sin, or at least a disgusting activity.

 

Greeks on this topic, and many others are closer to the ancient oriental mentality. Greeks and Romans have lots of homosexuals in theirs ranks, phylosophers included. Arabs of the times of Harun Al-Rachid were also quite tolerant to that behavoir.

 

Today's gays should take the time machine and leave for those times 

 

Intollerance has been particularly strong in both Catholic and Protestant countries up to recent times. In Catholic countries is still a widespread notion that gays are defective people, like handicaped; abnormal people, anyways. And it is still believed gay relations is an activity against nature.

Killings of gays, particularly travesties, are relatively common in Latin America, for instance.

 

Pinguin