I was going to say the same thing... Or at least not barded cavalry. 

Well, parts of Hellenic population in Asia Minor were Turkified.So a part of modern Turks are coming from Turkified Hellens.Not all of course but a small part yes.

SelamAleykum Turkoglu,

Well Done on your topic !!!

The Turkic history in this forum used to be lively and exciting when i first joined AE, it then somehow went into the dark ages. But thanks to you it once again is getting exciting, Tesukur ederim!!!

Great pics, i do not think they look so diffrent from modern day Turks. However the pics that depict more easternly Turks do look more Mongoloid. This is due to mixture with Mongols. The Turks from the west had mixture from other cultures to, Thus making us have a westernly twist. On the whole i would say we still have a Turkic look, accept for places such as Istanbul were it is harder to find.

Y chromosome tracing is faulty too, you cannot determine race from Y chromosome.

For example:

Let us pretend a British man with R1b had a baby boy with an Indian woman 200 years ago.

the boy will have R1b chromosome but will look half Indian.  Ok then the boy will marry another full Indian woman and have another son, a granndson of the english man.  The grandson will also carry the R1a chromosome but will look completely Indian.  This process can continue indefinately and the males could marry, africans, chinese etc and the son will always have the english R1a chromosome but only a tiny tiny fraction of him will actually be english.

There is no such thing as 'race' in human species, genetically speaking. Turkish genetics are mostly local. Local genetics include all the ethnicities of Anatolia, including, but not limited to, Greeks. There is nothing surprising about this.

Don't worry about not having Central Asian genes. It doesn't make you less Turkish. Being a Turk (or Ottoman or Seljuk) is about culture, not about genetics. This is what Turks believed throughout the history. This is what Seljuks believed, and what the Ottomans believed.

If you think that being a Turk is about genetics, you are not thinking like a Turk, you are imitating European racists of the past. Any Turk (or indeed Middle Eastern) who believes in such crap is an alien to his/her culture.

Dolay�s�yla, 'arabac� nas�l araba de�ilse, T�rk�� de T�rk de�ildir.'

Of course race exists, believing that so does not make one a racist.  But as far as identity goes, it is futile to base it on race alone espcially in a place so diverse as the Middle East.  As for this head shape, eye shape thing goes, I think it is variable depending on region, there are areas more heavily settled by the Turkish tribes and it is more evident in the appearance of the descendants of such regions (towns, villages). For example in Iran there are Torki villages where the population looks Uzbek and others where they look like Mazandaranis and others in west Azarbaijan look like Kurds.

From what I have seen it is the same in Turkey, some regions they are really Greek looking, others "Turanid" and others like Northern MEers/Armenians/Kurds.

As Zagros said earlier, there is human races of course. However, I will agree with Beylerbeyi that there is no Turkish race for Turkey. As he said, all Turkish citizens came from a mixture of local genes and foriegn genes. What is Turkey now used to be Hatay, Armenians, Kurds, Hellens and more all either mixed or not with Turkic genes or not in some cases (as Bosnak Turks and Slav Turks).

Anyhow, definitely Turkey is Turkic more by culture, but not by genes. At least that is what I learned and experienced so far.

Beylerberyi one would think from your sayings that the Turks of Turkey have no relation to the Central Asian Turks

I think being a Turk is about genetics to a certain extent. I disagree with the 'pure race' notion. I think one must find a balance in blood (having a genetic link with a race) and culture. With this theory the Oguz Turks (Turkey, TRNC, Azeri etc) all fit into the Turkic race.

Being a Turk (or Ottoman or Seljuk) is about culture, not about genetics. This is what Turks believed throughout the history. This is what Seljuks believed, and what the Ottomans believed.

The Ottoman's would tell of Osman's lineage to the great Oguz tribe and the Prophet Nuh (Noah) from his son Japheth. This was to add legitimacy to their rule as well as the prestige of coming from a grand family.

However you do have a point since in those days people were not worried about race as they do today. All this fuss about race started thanks to Darwin with his THEORY.

What 'of course'? Human genetic variance is clinal, not racial. Humans are a relatively new species with a population bottleneck event in history. There are monoracial mammals with up to three times human genetic diversity. Human so-called races are social and anthropological constructs, based on cosmetic differences, they don't correspond to any genetic reality. Hence, as I wrote;

There are differences in the way people look in Turkey, but I don't think they are primarily due to Central Asian influence. Turkey is large as the whole Balkans, and is as mountainous, it is quite normal to have variance in looks. I think 5-10% of genes is a realistic estimate of CA genetic influence. Of course, this does not mean that only 5% in Turkey are 'real Turks' (I add this disclaimer due to the racists here). The genes would have been distributed among the population. 

Beylerberyi one would think from your sayings that the Turks of Turkey have no relation to the Central Asian Turks

And where does the language come from? The Caribbean? Turks are a Turkic ethnicity closely related to other Turkics on both sides of the Caspian.

Even if you ignore genetics and follow anthropological classifications to define races, there is still no such thing as a 'Turkic race'. Turkic ethnicities are related to each other by lingusitic ties, not by genetics. Similarly, both Sudanese and Syrians speak Arabic, but they don't 'fit into the Arabic race'. 

Yes. For their family only. It was not to prove the legitimacy of their society. They would never think of inventing Central Asian ties for everyone to legitimise their ethnicity. This is a sign of insecurity. Ottomans were secure, because they were strong. Same goes for Americans, anyone can be an American.

Modern Turkey, on the other hand, is insecure because it is weak. Turkish Republic got influenced by the Western ideas of racism and ethnic-state and tried to legitimise itself by inventing Central Asian genetic ties for the Anatolian population. This is a stupid approach. Turks already know what they are. Our culture and language are powerful enough to define our identity. As a result of this stupid policy (abandoned by the West by now) I know many Turks who don't call themselves 'Turk', because they know that their grandparents are Pomak or Cerkes or Bosniak or whatever, but in school they learned that we came from Central Asia.

This is wrong. Biological racism predates Darwin in the West. Modern racism starts with Western colonialism. 

I disagree, they are not mere cosmetic changes.  As examples: The North East Siberians have short limbs so that they can conserve as much heat as possible, and also thicker skin, they have narrow eyes so that the white from teh snow does not bother them as much.  East Africans have long limbs to create more surface area for the loss of heat is increased, black skin for protection against sun (and somehting to do with diseases too).  Both have flared noses for opposite reasons.

And I think the actual population with a direct Turkish ancestor in Turkey has been underestimated, though certainly not in the majority I think it is more than what most people on the internet (not anyone here in particular) for whatever reason try to make out.

I am not saying that humans are the same everywhere. What I am saying is genetical variance is not enough to identify 'races'. This variance you are writing about exhibits clinal character, involving gradual changes over a continuous area. Racial difference is something else, not observed in humans. But what people call 'races' (like 'black', 'white' race) are classifications based on cosmetic (i.e. visible) differences, not on genetic differences, which is a better indicator of how close human populations are.  

How many direct 'Turkish' ancestors (Central Asian is a better term, since vast majority of Turks have Turkish ancestors obviously) you'd need to call someone a Turk? If my great great great grandfather came from Central Asia in year 1750, but the rest of the family line are local people, my genes are only three percent Central Asian. Note that this is only 250 years ago, not 1000. I'd agree that many people in Turkey (and in Iran, for that matter) would have some ancestors at some point from Central Asia, but it doesn't make the gene pool very Central Asian.

OK if you want to remain in the strict confines of the word then I agree that the word race should not be used at all among humans, but it is a word which people understand and use in a cosmetic context.

Turkish I meant Central Asian. And I agree with you that on the whole the population is more regional than CA as Anatolia and Iran were already heavily populated, however, I think that the 5-10% figure is too low.  So instead of having just your (and I say this as an example) great great great Grandfather being of CA origin also another ancestor from that generation, again very dependent on region but on a higher % of the population than what we are generally led to believe by these genetic pie charts.

Even the Oghuz who came from CA would have been mixed to one degree or another before they came to Anatolia, ME genes are pretty strong in CA too, you know.

Does anyone know which war about the pictures 1 and 4?I have them in our forum's gallery, and I called them only as "zafer", I don't know what are they about

By the way, the pictures in first page are charming.

Deniz GEZM�� is the best turkish 2. independent warrior

he was ATATURK's teens he was revolutionary

this pic to make people a little bit uncomfortable. even pick on woman and kid?

the turks of today in the west are mostly turkified inhabitants that were already there.

like a lot of turks in turkey are anatolian and a lot of turks in the cacausus were already there, etc....

that is why you look different than the ones from the east.

turkified turkifed......blah blah

pure farsi or greek?

go on spartakus and propagandas

none of us are Turkified, we are all proud Turks  

btw, I love the pictures, amazing, I'm out of words...brilliant

babur sah

you dont htink so?

so i guess the egyptians werent arabised either. and i guess the hawaains werent americafied.

so turks lived in the area before the turkic migrations. so the hitites were turkish, the ionians were turkish, the anatolians were turkish, the azerbaijani's were turkish, etc...

ok, believe whatever you want.

ofcourse you are a turk now, and you should be proud of that.

but the fact is that you were turkified, why would you deny something like that? its not an attack or anything, its just history. i dont understand you people, you think everything is an attack or anti turkish.

yes we rule persi a 1000 years. and parsi is pure?

shut up persian41 we arent turkified are u understand persil?

persia empire finished thounds years ago.

hahahaha lmao rofl!!!

ok dont believe me.

 no persian you totally misunderstood me , I sure didn't get that as an attack, I simply said we weren't Turkified, because I don't know, that's what I've learned since I was a kid,  of course we are all mixed, there are no pure turks left in this world, but that doesn't matter.

you have any other suggestions, pers4life ?

timur imp,selcuk imp safevid imp.........

 Great.

OK, who wants to be Zagroficed?

Ok

Ottoman soldier, 1892, Jerusalem.

We are turks!!!!

We are proud of this!!!!

We have turkish hearts and turkish believes which brings all of us together. We share same values. It is more important than etnic background, which of course could be mixed.

And you persian people should be proud that Persia was ruled during last 1000 years by turkish people. and actually it's still ruling by turkish ( azerbaijani) people

Thanks for the pics. Remember the depictions are one person's interpretation and not necessarily accurate.

 And I'm proud to be a moderator. My gentic map proves it and my ancestors were mods also.

Now back to the pictures! Anybody?

Yes so now that we have had a nice chat, back to sending images

Fatih Sultan Mehmed and his brave army

Above: Fatih Sultan, with the Ottoman army along with the largest cannon in the world of the time.

Above: Fatih Sultan calling his navy to stay in position

Above: A military inovation that is still praised to this day. Since the Byzantine's blocked of the waterways by using giant chains. Fatih Sultan Mehmed decided to take his navy, along with the boats over the hills.

Above: The Ottoman's arrive in Istanbul 1453

Sultan Selim, first Caliph of the Ottoman empire by ending the Mamluk empire.

Eastern Turkistan soldiers

Ottoman Turks in the Middle East

Lala Mustafa Pasha

Binatli Akincilar, The thousen hoursemen. First Turkish Cypriot soldiers that opened Cyprus to the Ottoman Empire in 1571

Turkish Cypriot warriors during the War of Cyprus 1974.

Turkish Cypriot soldiers at present

A few more pictures

http://img79.imageshack.us/img79/8816/turk17eh.jpg">

http://img79.imageshack.us/img79/8480/turk28kt.jpg">

img79.imageshack.us/img79/8816/turk17eh.jpg -

Those people in the pictures look more asians than turkish.

Maybe they are the asian looking turkish.

Attila the Hun

Mongol warrior

genghis khan

Hunnic Empire

Hunnic Archer

Attila the hun

VII.jpg">

Mongol warriors

above: Mongol warrior (persian depiction)

Above: Persian depiction of a mongol camp

above: screen capture from the movie "Genghis khan"

genghis khan on horse

Above: Genghis khan in afghanistan

below: mongol conquest of baghdad

i feel really sorry for that time too...

More pics

Ottoman 14-15th Centuries

ottoman 16-17th centuries

True, very true. I couldn't agree with you more.

Dear pacifist:

I think all those people in the pictures that have been posted in this thread are some of the cruelest animals on the planet and i don't see how turkish people are so obsessed with those "things"...

famous quote from my Iraqi friend of Basrah

"The human history is even worse than animal's history."

Seljuk Turks

Im sorry to break your line of putting up pics, but i would like to know which of these turks were involved in the crusades apart from seljuks

find out why here: http://s9.invisionfree.com/nadjibs_project - http://s9.invisionfree.com/nadjibs_project

    One has to understand that the Ottoman Empire was only Turkish at the beginning and that for atleast the last 3 centuries it was multicultural.  For exampe the majority of the ethnic turks lived only around the Rum (Ankara) area, while anatolia was mainly Greek, esspecially the larger cities like Istanbul were multicultural, an example of that is that the main languages spoken at the royal court in Istanbul were slavic because the Janissary were mainly compromised out of slavic people(because at first Janissaries were recruited from christians who were mainly slavic, and even later when muslims were recruited into the janissaries most were of slavic descent because of their taller statue which is preferable for a royal guard). Also after the succession of the Bosnian Pashadom from the Ottoman Empire and conquest by Austria, the Bosnian muslim population in Bosnia fell from 75% to only 35%, which means that about half the Bosnian population moved to other regions of the Ottoman Empire (mainly Istanbul and regions in Anatolia), and today you can find Turks with the last name Bosnak, which derives from Bosnjak which is the Bosnian for Bosniak.  All these are reasons why modern day turks do no really look like other turkmanien people.

ramil seferov REAL TURKISH WARRIOR

The race argument is pretty funny, there is one race and that's the human race, due to a long time apart in various geographical regions what was known as Caucasian, Mongoloid, Afro-Black.

Obviously hardly anyone fits directly into one category or the other, its clear the Turks were a Caucasian-Mongoloid mix carrying feature's of both some more prominant or less prominant.

Here's a game, tell me who is from where, which one is from Turkey, which one from Uygur regions, which one from Ozbekistan, Turkmenistan etc

p.s There are thousands of miles between them but a certain nation connects them all T...u....r....k

Mounted Falconer, c.1478-90. Topkapι Sarayι M�zesi, Istanbul. Photo Hadiye Cang�k�e.

 

Portrait of Mehmed II, c.1480. Attributed to Siblizade Ahmed. Opaque watercolour on paper. Topkapι Sarayι M�zesi, Istanbul. Photo Hadiye Cang�k�e.

A happy fello isn't he.

The first Turko-Mongol Epic

While historians of certain brands have often disregarded epics as a source of history, their value in reconstructing the past cannot be underrated. The great Turko-Mongol empire of Blue Turks or the Tu-Chueh set their entire epic down in stone and it remains one of the most valuable sources of the early medieval history of Central Asia. The history of the Blue Turks was inscribed on the funeral steles of their great warrior Kultegin in the heart of Mongolia at Kosho-Tsaidam, on the banks of the Orkhon river, in the old Altaic language (ancestor of later Turkic and Mongolic), in the Runic script. Several parts of it survive and its translation gives a dramatic glimpse of one of the early Altaic empires. I present the present the translation as made by Thomsen in his work: "Alttuerkischen Inschriften aus der Mongolei"

The bard narrates "When the blue sky above and the dark earth beneath had been created, between them arose the sons of Men. Amidst the sons of men arose my ancestors, Bumin Kha'khan and Ishtemi Kha'Khan. They rose to be the masters of men, they governed and established the empire of the Altaic peoples. In the four corners of the world they had many a foe, but, launching expeditions with their cavalry they subjugated people in the 4 directions. They made our foes bow their heads and bend their knees before the banner of the Turks. In the East they conquered as far as the forest of Qadir Khan in Manchuria, and in the West they conquered as far as the Iron Gates of Transoxiana. Over all the land between these utter most points the Blue Turks held sway. They were wise Kha'Khans favored by Tengri the lord of High Heaven and the Goddess Umai. Their officers were wise and the whole people were righteous. Thus stood aloft the flag of the Turks topped with the image of the she-wolf. We restored the glory of the Turks that fallen with the end of the Hun and Avar empires. The land of Byzantines, Sassanians, Chinese and others were beaten flat by the hoofs of horses."

Thus did the Great Blue Turk empire blaze forth in 540 AD, as the next great thing of power from Mongolia, after the Huns had receded into history. In 552 at the height of their power emissaries from all over Asia and Europe sought the audience of the Kha'Khans Bumin and Ishtemi in their twin capitals at Tashkent and Orkhon. The Indian emissary from Gandhara, Gyanagupta was one of the ambassadors at the courts of the Kha'Khans. He sought aid of the Turks in repudiating the Chinese.

The epic then continues; "Their younger brothers and sons then became Khans. These were born like their seniors and gradually their genius was lost. These Kha'Khans without valor or wisdom sat on the exalted thrones of the Turks and thus brought the dissolution of our empire."

Intercine conflict amidst the descendents of the great Kha'Khans placed them in a precarious position. The 4 Indian cities of Central Asia of Agni, Kucha, Khotan and Khasgar, who were their main partners, were also weakened by the Chinese forward action under the imperialist emperor T'ai-Tsung (Hsuan Tsang, the so called Chinese pilgrim to India, was actually one of his spies in the forward action to invade India). In 630 Tai-Tsung destroyed the Eastern half of the Blue Turk empire. In 648 T'ai-Tsung and his renegade Turko-Mongol ally Arshina Shoeuel destroyed the Indic cities in central Asia and smashed the remnants of the Blue Turk armies that came to their assistance. Shortly after that Tai Tsung's hordes poured into Nepal, Bhutan and Bengal and destroyed the Indian kingdom of Tirabhukti. As the Chinese conquest of Asia suddenly seemed a reality, Tai-Tsung died in 650, placing his son Kao-Tsung on the throne. Kao continued the campaigns vigorously and in 659 destroyed the Western half of the Blue Turk empire and returned to Peking thinking that he was the master of all Asia. There was a single survivor of the Blue Turk royal clan- Qutlugh Eltrish Kha'Khan. He declared himself Kha'Khan and set about reviving the nation spirit of the Altaic peoples. The Kosho-Tsaidam epic continues on him:

"The whole mass of Turkic peoples in the land watered by the rivers Selenga and Orkhon said: I was people with my own empire. I was a people with my own Kha'Khans. Where are my Khans now? Thus speaking the Turkic peoples decided to organize themselves to restore their fallen glory. The evil Chinese said: We will annihilate the Turkic peoples and cut off their posterity, and they set forth to destroy them. But the great god Tengri of High heavens, god of our peoples, the revered gods of Earth and gods of Water, protecting the Turkic peoples raised Kha'Khan Qutlugh Eltrish and his wife Khatun Ilbilge as the rulers of the peoples. The Khan started with just 27 men, the leader of a simple band. Then it became 70. Then the god Tengri, thunderer in heaven, made the Khan's army as wolves and his enemies, ewes. His ranks swelled to 700. He fell upon the Chinese reduced their troops in war and dispossessed them. He reinstated the laws of the Altaic people and he fired the hearts of the Blue Turks. He crushed other competing Altaic peoples. The Kirghiz hordes and the Khaljis and their 9 hordes of Oghuz fell before the arrows of Eltrish Kha'Khan in invasion of Siberia. The Quriqan of Siberia, he deprived of empire and Khan. The 30 hordes of Tatars, and Khitai Mongols he reduced to submission. Now all Mongolia bowed to him in unity, protected by Tengri. The Kha'Khan Eltrish launched 47 campaigns in his life and fought personally in 20 of them. He made as his Prime Minister Khan Tonyuquq who rule astutely laying the law of the land."

When Mongolia had been taken by the Blue Turks, they decided to go in for their epic showdown with China. Tonyuquq brought the information that Kao-Tsung drunk in his over confidence had neglected the army. So in 682 the Blue Turks opened hostilities against China and invaded the Shansi province with 3 Tumens of cavalry marching each under Qutlugh Eltrish, his younger brother, Qapaghan and the prime minister Tonyuquq. In March 683 Qutlugh captured the city of Kweichow and secured the Nanchow pass north west of Peking. Tonyuquq seized Ho-Pei and their armies met encircling  the Sui Yan district in April. They devastated the city and marched against the Yuchow province sacking it June and killing the governor. Qapaghan captured and killed the governor of Fung Chow and the three armies converged on Lan Chow and invested it. With this they had cleared the path for the raid of Peking. Kao-Tsung hearing the news passed away in shock. His wife seized the Chinese throne and tried to fight the Kha'Khan. In 684 the Blue Turks moved further into China and confronted the imperial troops in 685. The Imperial Chinese Army met with a shameful defeat and Turks seized much of North and Eastern China. In April of 687 Peking was raided and the provinces around it were burnt. The Chinese empress sought the aid of the Khan of the rival Turkic clan of the Tuergech in Semirechye on the Ili river. However, Qutlugh Eltrish routed him and took him prisoner in 689 extending the Western reaches of the Blue Turk empire.

In 691 Qutlugh died and was succeeded by his son Kultegin as sub-ruler with his brother Qapaghan as the supreme Kha'Khan Qapaghan set the Blue Turks on the path to their final blaze of glory. He continued the incessant raids deep into Chinese territory and conquered several cities in North East China. In 700 AD he launched a fierce assault on the provinces of Paoting and Chengting in NE China and slaughtered 1000s of Chinese troops after feigning retreat and forcing them into an ambush. In 702 he marched on the Taichow province West of Peking and devastated it. In 706 AD he bypassed Peking and scored his greatest victory against the imperial army of the Chinese led by the by imperial commander Sha-Ch'a Chung-Yi by sacking in the Min Shan mountain ranges near Ningsia. Qapaghan's nephew Kultegin stole the show in the great battle described in the epic on stone:

"We favored by Tengri, seeking destroy our great foes the Chinas, charged against Shacha. Kultegin mounted on his grey horse Tadiking-chur led the charge. After much fierce fighting his horse was slain under him. He then mounted the grey horse Ishbara-Yamatar and charged but that horse was also slain. Resolving to end the might of the China's Kultegin mounted the bay horse Kedimlig and charged. His bow was bent into a continuous circle discharging arrows without stop. He slew more than hundred Chinas with his arrowy showers. The Blue Turks inspired by the charge of their Tegin, fell upon the Chinas each one bringing down a score of them. This great battle is memory of many of you! O valiant Turkic Begs. That day we destroyed the whole Chinese army on the mountains of Minshan. Sacha's head we cut off. So great was the booty we captured, that naukers became slave owners and our serfs, serf owners. Such were conquests and such was the glory of our arms"

Having shattered the Tang Empire, Qapaghan and his nephews Kultegin and Tengrida Bilge turned their attention to the North East of Mongolia where their cavalries split up and forded the rivers Onon and the Kerulen when they were frozen. They converged on the domain of the Bayirku Turks, who had failed to accept their over lordship, and annexed their territory. Then Tengrida Bilge and his brother Kultegin marched north beyond the level of the Baikal towards the Upper Yenisei, where the Yenisei Kirghiz lived. The Kha'Khan of the Kirghiz refused to submit to Blue Turks, when the brother attacked him in a spectacular campaign, right in the winter of 707AD. The Kirghiz thought that snow would deter the attackers but brothers pressed on as the stone epic narrates:

"The snow lay to the depth of our spears, but  KulTegin and his elder brother, the wise one, pressed on. We climbed the densely wooded Koegmen mountains with our horses and took our positions on its top. We saw the Kirghiz Kha'Khan and his army in the conifer forest yonder. We swooped on them like falcons. In the battle that followed Kultegin was surrounded by three great Kirghiz warriors, but one he slew with a single arrow shot from his bow. The two others closed in on him, but he slew both with his spear. As he was charging on his white stallion the lord of the Kirghiz brought him down. He rolled in the snow and his horse expired, but Tengrida Bilge brought him down with an arrow. Thus we slew the Kirghiz Kha'Khan and made the whole Kirghiz tribe our subjects"

Sogo Kha'Khan of the Tuergech Turks near the Balkash lake proclaimed himself supreme lord of the Turks and opposed Qapaghan. In 706 Qapaghan asked him to desist and opened negotiations. But seeing him try to gain support from Lalitaditya, Qapaghan opened hostilities on him in 711. He along with this nephews marched to the lake Balkash as the epic narrates:

"The Tuergech were our people, but their Kha'Khan was lacked sense and opposed us, he failed to keep promises he had given us. So he had to be killed. We marched against the Tuergech, by climbing the Altai mountains under the cover of the woods, and fording the upper Irtysh. We swooped with our troops in surprise charge. Kultegin led the vanguard mounted on his grey charger Bashgu. The army of Sogo Khan came down upon us like fire and tempest, with the speed of their horses, and the showers of their fire tipped arrows. But we held our ground and Kultegin took aim and with an arrow brought down their Kha'Khan. With that, their ranks wavered and we charged conquering the Tuergech once and for all. Then we moved on to Karakol to fight the Qarluqs."

Qapaghan and his nephews then devastated the Qarluq Turks and took their Kingdom to the west of Balkash. Then they moved south and in 715 they attacked Lalitaditya. Lalitaditya inflicted a crushing defeat on them that Kalhana describes as his victory against the Turushkas. This defeat shook Qapaghan who was already aging and encouraged the Bayirku Turks to revolt against him. They seized the territory around the Tula river but Qapaghan marched against them and shattered their army. Proud over his victory he was returning to the banks of Orkhon river where his capital lay, when he was ambushed by another force of the Bayirku and the Kirghiz and slain on July 22nd 716 AD. The Bayirku claimed his head as a trophy and sold it to the Chinese.

The death of Qapaghan resulted in serious unrest amidst the Altaic tribes, with each tribe claiming supremacy in the empire. Qapaghan's son Boegue spent his time with the beverage cup, when, Kultegin assassinated him and placed his elder brother Tengrida Bilge Kha'Khan on the throne, with their old prime minister Tonyuquq (Kultegin�s father-in-law) as their advisor. The 9 Oghuz tribes with the Khaljis at their head, and the ancestors of the later day Osmans, rose in revolt in near the Kerulen River. The 9 surviving Tatar tribes joined them in the unrest from the south and from the east came the Uighur horde, and from the West the Qarluq horde. They marched against Bilge Kha'Khan along the Kerulen, and challenged his lordship over the Altaic peoples. Bilge sent his unstoppable brother to hold the empire together in 716 AD. The stone epic narrates:

"The people of the Toquz Oghuz were my own peoples. But by a convulsion in heaven and on earth they became our foes. In one year we had to battle them 5 times. Kultegin mounted his white horse Azman and charged on the Khaljis at the van of the Oghuz. Their 6 great Baghaturs gave him battle from front. He ran his spear through them all killing each. In the melee they surrounded him and the seventh tried to take him, but he with lightning blow from his saber brought down the seventh. We won the battle, but the Altaic peoples were losing their unity and growing weary fighting each other. Had I, Tengrida Bilge Kha'Khan not toiled manfully with my younger brother Kultegin to uphold the banner, the Altaic people would have been lost."

After reestablishing unity Bilge Kha'Khan spent his time as a monarch of peace. He discussed philosophy with Panditas from India and Taoists from China. He was very impressed by these concepts and wanted to establish a settled city and give up violence. However, his wise vazir Tonyuquq warned him:

"The teachings of the Indians and the Chinese that induce gentleness and humility are unsuited for us warrior of the steppe. Mobility is our might, and thus we beat the Chinas even if they outnumber us 100 to 1. We will pass into history if we lower our guard by settling down in towns with monasteries in them."

Bilge Kha'Khan realizing the truth in this wrote down the warning in the epic for generations of Altaic peoples to follow. Thus he occupies the unique place in history of realizing the true power base of the steppe peoples and laying it out clearly for them.

"The Chinas with silver and gold and sweet enticements draw the Altaic peoples into their style of life. Their lazy courts drew our peoples to them and as result many have died and have been ultimately conquered by the Chinas. Deserting the dark forest many looked toward the south saying I would settle in the plains. O Altaic peoples if you go and settle in that country, you will perish! But if you remain nomads in the forest of the Oetuekaen, where there neither riches nor cares, you will preserve an ever-lasting empire O Altaic peoples! All that I have to tell you I have written on enduring rock."

In 718 the Chinese got a new Emperor, Hsuan Tsung who had imperialist designs decided to incite the Basmil Turks who had settled in China to invade the Blue Turks. Bilge Kha'Khan marched on them and beat them at Kucheng and went on to ravage the Chinese territory up to Liangchow till the year 720, The Chinese then surrendered and signed a complete peace treaty with the Blue Turks. Tonyuquq died in 721 shortly after ratifying the peace treaty with the Chinese court. After that Bilge Kha'Khan and Kultegin caused a great cultural efflorescence of the Turks with the adoption of a formal script based on the old Iranian script of Sogdhiana. The Khan's edicts were erected all over their empire. The only surviving ones are from the Kosho Tsaidam in Mongolia and those of the Yenisei Basin in Siberia. The laws and administration was standardized and their histories recorded. Thus, when the Blue Turks seemed to be poised on the doorsteps of being a great civilization the vicissitudes of the steppe brought their end. In 731 AD the backbone of the empire Kultegin passed away. It was on the occasion of his funeral that the great Kosho-Tsaidam steles, bearing the national epic of the Turks, were erected by Bilge Kha'Khan, along with an elegy in the honor of his brother. This site was 50 miles from Karaqorum that was later to be the capital of Chingiz Khan. The Chinese emperor was so impressed by the valor of Kultegin, that he chivalrously sent an embassy to attend his funeral and erected an inscription eulogizing the prince. In 734 AD Bilge Kha'Khan and his son were poisoned by one of his traitorous ministers. This sparked a tremendous convulsion in central Asia. Their youngest brother Tengri Kha'Khan ascended the throne and tried to rule with the help of Bilge Kha'Khan's wife as his adviser. He held the empire in place for seven more years before a minister of his killed him and ascended the thrones as Ozmish Khan. This immediately was followed by the revolt of the hordes of Uighurs, the Qarluqs and the Basmil. These even finally culminated in the ultimate dominance of Central Asia by the great Uighur Kha'Khans and their destruction of the Chinese empire.

A brief sequence:

Huns->Blue Turks->China->Blue Turks->[Arabs, Tibetans, various Turks, China]->Uighurs->Kirghiz->Kitans->Mongols of Chingiz Kha�Khan

However, legacy of the Blue Turks was lasting one- it gave the Turks and the Mongols the concept of a Nation, ethnic identity and made them into a civilizational influence. Turkic and Mongolic identity had not fully formed with the 2 great Huns empires- only the war machine was in place. But the Blue Turks almost gave them civilizational identity. Their rise was as momentous as the rise of the Bharatas amidst the Indo-Aryans. However, the empire depended too much on the heroes Bilge Kha'Khan and Kultegin and the wise Tonyuquq. They had already exhausted themselves out in large part through their ceaseless military exploits throughout their life. Their last blaze was ended in a critical period before civilizational identity was completely established. They did pass their epic in stone, and their administrative inventions including writing to the Uighurs, who later passed it to the Mongols of Chingiz. However, it had not sunk deep enough for the transformation of the entire Altaic people. Here lie the roots of modern Turkey and the Central Asian Stans' identity and their identity crisis goes back to the sooner than expected deaths of Kultegin and Bilge Kha'Khan. Modern Mongolia's lack of impact in the world also traces its roots to these little known events of history.