Worst traitors of you country
Printed From: History Community ~ All Empires
Category: All Empires Community
Forum Name: Historical Amusement
Forum Discription: For role playing and alternative history discussions.
URL: http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=803
Printed Date: 23-Apr-2024 at 03:19
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 9.56a - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: Worst traitors of you country
Posted By: Jalisco Lancer
Subject: Worst traitors of you country
Date Posted: 06-Oct-2004 at 17:47
|
Ignacio Elizondo, betrayed to the Father of the Independence ( Hidalgo ) by delivering him to the spaniards. Lorenzo de Zavala and Juan N. Seguin by supporting the Tejas Independence from Mexico ( the heros from ones are the traitors to anothers ...) Antonio Lopez de Santa Anna, abolished the Federation, signed the recognition of Tejas Independence while he was prisioners and by the suspicious way that he handled the militar campaing of 1846-1848. Miguel Miramon and Juan Almonte Nepomuceno ( son of Jose Maria Morelos ) by their alliance with the french to imposse a foreign emperor in Mexico. Victoriano Huerta, as the Minister of War betrayed to Pres. Madero in 1911 and leaded a coup d'etat , founded by the US. Madero and the Vicepresident were executed by Huerta's orders. |
Replies:
Posted By: Evildoer
Date Posted: 06-Oct-2004 at 18:35
|
Didn't US attack Huerta afterwards under Woodrow Wilson? And then there was the ABC Powers Peace Treaty if I remember my American history correctly... I hate Santa Anna... He fought so horribly against Texans. Canada really dosn't have any famous traitors because it is not worth betraying! lol!
|
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 06-Oct-2004 at 18:41
Anton Mussert:
Another one may be Stadtholder William V. When he was overthrown in
1787 by democrats he asked his brother in law, the king of Prussia, to
put him back into power. ------------- |
Posted By: Evildoer
Date Posted: 06-Oct-2004 at 18:47
|
What exactly is the title "Stadtholder"? Some sort of dictator? Stadt = State. Holder = Holder? Thus - Stateholder? |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 06-Oct-2004 at 18:56
|
Stadtholder is the English name for 'Stadhouder'. (Stad means city, not state) During Burgundian and Spanish rule, stadhouders were appointed to several regions in the Low Countries. In 1572 King Philip II of Spain appointed William the Silent stadhouder of Holland, Zeeland and Utrecht. Later William the Silent revolted against Spain but he kept his title. Later he and his heirs also became stadhouder of Friesland, Groningen, Overijssel en Gelre. Officialy It was no hereditary title, but since William the Silent every stadhouder was succeeded by his son. (Exept William III, he died childless and was succeede by a cousin). William IV declared the stadhouder hereditary. In 1795 William V, the last stadhouder, fled to England after the French Invasion and the Batavic Revolution. When the French were driven out in 1814 his son became king William I. ------------- |
Posted By: Kubrat
Date Posted: 06-Oct-2004 at 19:09
|
I'd have to say Tzar Ferdinand, who got paid 20 million deutsche marks
in order to put Bulgaria on the side of the Central Powers in WWI. Another is the traitor that gave the gate key of Tzarevetz to the Ottoman, letting them take one of the last remaning strongholds of Midieval Bulgaria. ------------- Hell is empty and all the devils are here. -William Shakespeare |
Posted By: Jalisco Lancer
Date Posted: 07-Oct-2004 at 10:00
|
Posted By: Tobodai
Date Posted: 07-Oct-2004 at 11:36
|
well I guess Benedict Arnold is th emost famous but he didnt have much of an effect as he was caught... Guess that makes Jefferson Davis the biggest traitor dont it? ------------- "the people are nothing but a great beast... I have learned to hold popular opinion of no value." -Alexander Hamilton |
Posted By: Kalevipoeg
Date Posted: 07-Oct-2004 at 11:53
|
I don't seem to find any traitors of Estonia, although the "Agreement of the bases" with the SU was rather suspicious and maybe we can find a traitor there someday. ------------- There is nothing in the world more helpless and irresponsible than a man in the depths of an ether binge... |
Posted By: JanusRook
Date Posted: 07-Oct-2004 at 16:40
Posted By: Evildoer
Date Posted: 07-Oct-2004 at 18:42
|
Burr was a true scoundrel... You might say Davis is a traitor, but he assumed the seat of President of Confederate States unwillingly, and prefomed horribly in that office. It might have been better for the Confederates had he not been president. Plus, although Confederate states were officially a nation, they were really a rag-tag union of independent states, since the very reason for their seccession was the right of state over the rights of the federal government. I'd rather say that the greatest traitor from Secession is the South Carolina governor who gave orders to fire on Fort Sumter. |
Posted By: dark_one
Date Posted: 07-Oct-2004 at 20:48
| Hard to say. The communist leaders Trotsky and Lenin. Also Count Kaiser Wilhelm in it since even though he wasn't Russian he helped deliver Lenin in. Lenin and Trotsky led Russia through a backwards 70 year period after overthrowing a democracy, and they did it all to get rich not expecting to stay in power but pe put down by the Government forces and do some robbing of the rich. |
Posted By: Genghis
Date Posted: 09-Oct-2004 at 08:17
|
Benedict Arnold, Aaron Burr, Jane Fonda. ------------- Member of IAEA |
Posted By: Temujin
Date Posted: 09-Oct-2004 at 13:09
politicians...  ------------- |
Posted By: Tobodai
Date Posted: 09-Oct-2004 at 15:32
|
Yes Benedict Arnold is a hero, but once you become a hero doesnt mean you stay that way. He is still a traitor, even if he was relaly th eperson who won the battle of Saratoga. But your right, Aaron Burr is probably the worst of them all, especially that he killed Hamilton, Im a HUGE Hamilton fan. ------------- "the people are nothing but a great beast... I have learned to hold popular opinion of no value." -Alexander Hamilton |
Posted By: Evildoer
Date Posted: 09-Oct-2004 at 19:38
| I hate hamilton. He promoted only the interests of the rich and was in allience with John Adams and his anti-French-Revolutionist, Pro-Brits. |
Posted By: Genghis
Date Posted: 09-Oct-2004 at 20:59
|
He was a visionary he knew that the key to the future was industrialization, and government promotion of business. ------------- Member of IAEA |
Posted By: Jagatai Khan
Date Posted: 31-Oct-2004 at 10:37
|
In Turkey we can consider "Çerkez Ethem" as a traitor.(Çerkez means Circuassian) When the independence war against Greeks began Çerkez Ethem was a guerilla and his men were fighting against Greek armies.But when systematic armies began to establish b y republicant government,he fight near Greeks against the Turkish. ------------- |
Posted By: Quetzalcoatl
Date Posted: 03-Nov-2004 at 04:21
|
Petain and those pathetic traitors like Ney (responsible for the defeat of Waterloo) and Bernadotte. ------------- |
Posted By: Tobodai
Date Posted: 03-Nov-2004 at 11:00
|
yeah Petain is a world class traitor ------------- "the people are nothing but a great beast... I have learned to hold popular opinion of no value." -Alexander Hamilton |
Posted By: Abyssmal Fiend
Date Posted: 03-Nov-2004 at 16:11
|
Germany: America: ------------- 
Di! Ecce hora! Uxor mea me necabit! |
Posted By: Temujin
Date Posted: 18-Nov-2004 at 13:04
|
Hitler was not the worst traitor of Germany, he was not German after all, it is Hindenburg who allowed him to take over the government. so he's the one. ------------- |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 19-Nov-2004 at 18:50
|
Could someone explain to me how Jefferson Davis and other Confederates can be considered traitors, since secession is a legal right guaranteed by the US Constitution and since their rightful country was unjustly invaded by outside forces. ------------- |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 27-Nov-2004 at 03:44
|
France, worst traitor : Jacques Doriot, more Nazi than the leaders of the Third Reich Themselves... ------------- |
Posted By: sephodwyrm
Date Posted: 27-Nov-2004 at 20:16
|
Well, in China, Wang Jing Wei was the accepted traitor who surrendered to the Japanese and became the puppet government under the Japanese Empire. Now, I think Lee Teng Hui fits in pretty nicely. He's a loyalist to Japan, but a traitor to China. ------------- "Therefore, whatever you want men to do to you, do also to them" "Not what goes into the mouth that defiles the Man, but what comes out of the mouth" Matthew 7:12, 15:11 |
Posted By: Yiannis
Date Posted: 28-Nov-2004 at 01:11
Wasn't it Pu Yi (sp?), the puppet emperor in Manchuria? ------------- The basis of a democratic state is liberty. Aristotle, Politics Those that can give up essential liberty to obtain a temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. Benjamin Franklin |
Posted By: coolstorm
Date Posted: 28-Nov-2004 at 06:35
|
"Wasn't it Pu Yi (sp?), the puppet emperor in Manchuria?" Wang Jing Wei was the puppet President of southern China. I agree that Lee Teng Hui is a major traiter. So is the Taiwanese seperatist President Chen Shui Bie |
Posted By: sephodwyrm
Date Posted: 28-Nov-2004 at 13:55
|
Chen Shui Bian is the accepted HYPY spelling. But he's not good enough as a traitor yet compared to Lee. ------------- "Therefore, whatever you want men to do to you, do also to them" "Not what goes into the mouth that defiles the Man, but what comes out of the mouth" Matthew 7:12, 15:11 |
Posted By: coolstorm
Date Posted: 28-Nov-2004 at 15:08
|
"Chen Shui Bian" I am really bad with Mandarin ping ying. I guess that's a common weakness of people from Hong Kong but some certainly can do pretty well. I always come up with some weird romanization of my own. I can't do either the Mainland way or the Taiwan way of romanization. Sorry about that. |
Posted By: sephodwyrm
Date Posted: 28-Nov-2004 at 15:52
|
Its ok. Don't worry about it. I'm sure it will improve with practice. I relish the fact that the old Chinese Taiwanese guys who are pro-Indepedence in my unit likes to call me Chen Shui Bian. ------------- "Therefore, whatever you want men to do to you, do also to them" "Not what goes into the mouth that defiles the Man, but what comes out of the mouth" Matthew 7:12, 15:11 |
Posted By: Slickmeister
Date Posted: 06-Dec-2004 at 17:04
Dog! That was cold! |
Posted By: Murph
Date Posted: 06-Dec-2004 at 19:00
|
it's interesting how everyone praises jefferson as president, but america has really followed the ideals of hamilton and that is what has led them to greatness. if we had followed jefferson's vision, we would be a nation of farmers oh, and by the way, kerry isn't a traitor...are you a right wing who doesn't like his views or a left who thinks he's a traitor because he lost? ------------- |
Posted By: Slickmeister
Date Posted: 06-Dec-2004 at 19:13
| I am a right wing but that is not the reason. I do not like his views because his views on morality is wrong and his priorities are offset. He is a traitor by trying to put his unAmerican views on us. |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 06-Dec-2004 at 19:16
IIRC the USA used to be based on freedom, not on "If you don't agree with me you're a traitor" ------------- |
Posted By: Murph
Date Posted: 06-Dec-2004 at 19:19
|
Slickmeister, what's an example of an un-American view, since you seem to be the one who decides what an American view is? ------------- |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 06-Dec-2004 at 19:52
|
|
Posted By: Yiannis
Date Posted: 07-Dec-2004 at 01:20
|
I have deleted offensive and groundless posts against certain politicians. Slickmeister, consider this as a warning! ------------- The basis of a democratic state is liberty. Aristotle, Politics Those that can give up essential liberty to obtain a temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. Benjamin Franklin |
Posted By: Slickmeister
Date Posted: 07-Dec-2004 at 16:30
Honestly, I have no clue what you are talking about. I did not indicate any disgust toward Bush 43. Must be some one else. I voted W |
Posted By: Infidel
Date Posted: 25-Dec-2004 at 21:10
I'd say D. Pedro for declaring the independence of Brazil. ------------- An nescite quantilla sapientia mundus regatur? |
Posted By: TheOrcRemix
Date Posted: 28-Dec-2004 at 22:27
|
Benedict Arnold, Burr ------------- True peace is not the absence of tension, but the presence of justice. Sir Francis Drake is the REAL Pirate of the Caribbean |
Posted By: Conquistador
Date Posted: 29-Dec-2004 at 01:25
|
For Norway, it is really easy; Vidkun Quisling... Leader of Nasjonal Samling (sort of a Norwegian nazi party), he decleard himself primeminister when the Germans invaded in 1940 and was a puppet for the Germans when they occupied Norway. He was execuded in 1945. |
Posted By: Ptolemy
Date Posted: 03-Jan-2005 at 23:29
|
For Canada, the only name I could think of was Louis Reil. But then again, I actually admire him. |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 04-Jan-2005 at 10:45
| Saddam Hussien |
Posted By: Styrbiorn
Date Posted: 04-Jan-2005 at 12:19
|
Carl Olof Cronstedt, Vice Admiral of the Blue Flag, surrendered Sveaborg to the Russians which led to a disastrous war where half the realm was lost, and lived the remainder of his life with all expenses payed by the tsar.
edit: spelling |
Posted By: Paul
Date Posted: 22-Jan-2005 at 13:12
|
For the UK it would have to be Edward VIII later Edward Winsor who married the American Nazi Wallace Simpson. Later the couple were to visit Hitler in the Eagle's Nest and Edward agree to become Hitler's puppet ruler of the UK after a Nazi conquest. For England it would be Charles I who was executed by Cromwell for treason. He conspired with the Dutch, Scots, Irish and French to get England invaded after the Civil War had ended.
------------- Light blue touch paper and stand well back http://www.maquahuitl.co.uk - http://www.maquahuitl.co.uk http://www.toltecitztli.co.uk - http://www.toltecitztli.co.uk |
Posted By: Capt. Lubber
Date Posted: 27-Jan-2005 at 10:14
He was, at the time, the best war academy cadet that had ever graduated in the country. When the germans invaded he attempted a coup, that lasted a total of five days before the germans degraded him to "minister president", and Terboven became the official head-nazi in Norway. Shot in -45. The interesting thing is that the word "Quisling" has entered the vocabulary of several languages as a synonym to traitor. ------------- Loke, Attila, the grete conqueror, Deyde in his sleep, with shame and dishonour, Bleedinge ay at the nose in dronkenesse, A captayin shoulde live in sobrenesse |
Posted By: Komnenos
Date Posted: 27-Jan-2005 at 12:37
So, Prince Harry got the family uniform out of the wardrobe? ------------- [IMG]http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i137/komnenos/crosses1.jpg"> |
Posted By: Jorsalfar
Date Posted: 27-Jan-2005 at 12:40
think i heard that he hactually had a high IQ btw your avatar seems familiar who is it? ------------- |
Posted By: Emile Boutros
Date Posted: 24-Feb-2005 at 21:34
|
For Algeria: the Young Algerians who wanted to stay a part of France and collaberated with the trecherous French slave master rule while other Algerians fought and died for liberty. For Lebanon: Emile Lahoud who continues to allow our country to be run by foreign elements. |
Posted By: eaglecap
Date Posted: 27-Feb-2005 at 01:06
Ex president Clinton
|
Posted By: Capt. Lubber
Date Posted: 28-Feb-2005 at 10:39
Never seen this before now, but it is Thomas Cochrane. He was an english sea-captain from the napoleonic wars. Not too well-known but he was a hero. And the hornblower and jack aubrey characters are based on him ------------- Loke, Attila, the grete conqueror, Deyde in his sleep, with shame and dishonour, Bleedinge ay at the nose in dronkenesse, A captayin shoulde live in sobrenesse |
Posted By: Thegeneral
Date Posted: 05-Mar-2005 at 22:29
|
For the US, to me it seems Ward Churchill seem a little like a traitor if you know about anything he has said about 9/11. Saying that it was OK to attack American civlians is a little traitorious, if that's a word. ------------- 
|
Posted By: Tobodai
Date Posted: 06-Mar-2005 at 02:30
|
no worse than what Gerry Falwell said about 9-11 yet he didnt get even half the outrage....people are just dumb but fake native americans with mullets get more press ------------- "the people are nothing but a great beast... I have learned to hold popular opinion of no value." -Alexander Hamilton |
Posted By: hugoestr
Date Posted: 10-Mar-2005 at 13:27
George W. Bush. Here he is during his Sunday worship. He is just plain evil.
One day, "...the White House will be adorned by a downright moron" H. L. Menken, American writer. http://www.snopes.com/politics/quotes/mencken.asp - Source ------------- |
Posted By: Thegeneral
Date Posted: 10-Mar-2005 at 15:14
|
Oh yeah, he's a first calss Hitler *sigh* -------------
|
Posted By: hugoestr
Date Posted: 10-Mar-2005 at 19:56
|
Come on, Thegeneral!
I didn't put a rolly-eye smiley when the best American president of the late 20th century, Bill Clinton, was called a traitor. I knew it was a joke so I took it like that. Besides, Bush is not Hitler, he is a Neo-Nazi Satan worshiper.
------------- |
Posted By: Bryan
Date Posted: 11-Mar-2005 at 12:37
|
Yeah, it's just something hugoestr does... don't get upset over it... Hugoestr, you forgot the flames in the eyes (one thing that's always there whenever tree-huggers do these things)... I'm... surprised. |
Posted By: Thegeneral
Date Posted: 11-Mar-2005 at 15:11
|
Oh, well, yeah never know when people are sincere about him. Especially Europeans who actually BELIEVE he worships Satin. could you imagine... And I actually thought you said Clinton was the best president of the 20th century. Haha, silly me -------------
|
Posted By: hugoestr
Date Posted: 11-Mar-2005 at 21:42
|
Of course I don't believe that Bush is a Nazi-satanist. It was intended to be an inside joke about another thread in the forum.
And even though Clinton is my favorite late 20th century president, the best late 20th century president was Richard Nixon[\i], everyone knows that. I want to apologize to Bryan if some my post had annoyed him. I learned my rhetorical style from right wing conservative talk hosts--true story for another post. I will try to reform on non-political threads. Back to the thread. The worst Mexican traitor was Santa Anna, who kept losing wars and offering the country to the U.S. I don't know the worst American traitor, but in the 20th century the man who gave the Russians nuclear secrets, Mr. Rosenburg--is that right?--was the worst. I learned in The Nation that Mrs. Rosenburg wasn't involved, but it seems that he was. ------------- |
Posted By: Thegeneral
Date Posted: 11-Mar-2005 at 21:49
|
Ah, an inside joke, got it! Just making sure because many Europeans believe he is a satanist. -------------
|
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 12-Mar-2005 at 09:26
I'm quite positive the vast majority of Europeans don't believe he's a satanist. ------------- |
Posted By: Thegeneral
Date Posted: 12-Mar-2005 at 09:38
|
^^^Tell that to the Polish who complained when he did that! -------------
|
Posted By: RED GUARD
Date Posted: 12-Mar-2005 at 12:01
|
The Russians, even though China was Communist, they still declared war agasint us with their allies the Vietamnese who we saved their butts at in the Vietnamese War. ------------- Quotes by your's turly: "I came, I saw, and I conquered... but only for the weekend" "This is my tank, this is my weapon, and this is my pride." "Power comes from a barrel of a gun." |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 31-May-2005 at 03:37
|
I would say Chiang Kai-Shek for attacking Mao's armies while under a
TRUCE, being more interested in fighting his own people instead of the
invading Japanese, and basically being a corrupt ****.
|
Posted By: Tobodai
Date Posted: 31-May-2005 at 03:52
|
Chiang is the man! Hes very cool and machiavellian. Had he won CHina would have become rich and powerful far ealier than it did under the rule of Mao with alot less people dying in ill concieved work "projects" ------------- "the people are nothing but a great beast... I have learned to hold popular opinion of no value." -Alexander Hamilton |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 02-Jun-2005 at 02:54
|
I think Chiang's subsequent purging of the "Reds" would have killed more people than Mao ever did. |
Posted By: yan.
Date Posted: 02-Jun-2005 at 10:24
|
Red guard: when did Russia ever declare war on the PRC? I think even Vietnam didn't, it was the PRC that started the Sino-Vietnamese war.
Re. Mao and Chiang, they are probably on par. Mao atz least achieved a strong central government, while Chiang never fully managed to control the various warlords.
The worst traitor in my country should be Franz von Papen, who practically eleminated the Prussian federal state in 1932 and helped Hitler become chancellor (with himself as vice chancellor). |
Posted By: Komnenos
Date Posted: 02-Jun-2005 at 12:28
Good choice! Franz von Papen and the whole Deutsch-Nationale Clique, Hugenberg and Hindenburg etc., all traitors. One could of course argue that the worst traitor in Germany's history was the "Gröfaz" himself, but as he was Austrian by birth, I'm not sure if that counts in this debate! ------------- [IMG]http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i137/komnenos/crosses1.jpg"> |
Posted By: yan.
Date Posted: 03-Jun-2005 at 07:38
|
You can certainly call him a hippocrite (all those myths about his austerity - and actually, some parts of the nazi elite were very corrupt), and of course he occasionally did betray his comrades (like Ernst Röhm) as well as the whole german people (like in 1945, when he decided that the german people were not worth living on after the war). his role as an abysmal evil scammer is more prominent, though. |
Posted By: Renegade
Date Posted: 13-Aug-2006 at 18:37
|
David Emmerson, when in the 2006 Canadian election he said he would be a critizing enemy agasint the Conservatives, but left the Liberal Party for a seat in the Conservatives just when he won his riding.
------------- "I kill a few so that many may live." - Sam Fisher |
Posted By: Attila2
Date Posted: 15-Aug-2006 at 18:41
|
should I begin with whom?
Hmmmm....
Ferit Pasha:An Elite English agent.became the husband of Sultan's daughter.Helped the Allied Forces in their war against Turkey and controlled the Ottoman Imperial army against the Civil Resistance Fighters and Republicians during ww1.
Sultan Vahdettin:one of the arch enemies of "Turkish Republic".A "Europe","Arab" and "Allies" lover during WW1.Sold his own people to the Imperialist forces.Hopefully he and his kin were all exiled after the declaration of the republic.Now it is illegal for his "breed" to come back to Turkey.hehe
 (his grand children still living in Malta I think )And nowadays,every single one of the governors and ruling parties are traitors :D
(NOTE:The "arabs","europeans" etc. written in the brackets refer to our enemies during WW1.I personally have no rivalry against those ppl.So pls don't get me wrong)
|
Posted By: bg_turk
Date Posted: 15-Aug-2006 at 19:27
But that's horrible. How can his children and grandchildren be held responsible for a crime of their ancestor. Take the USA for an example. Bin Laden's niece is a photo-model in some American state. Nobody persecutes her, and that's the right thing. ------------- http://www.journalof911studies.com - http://www.journalof911studies.com |
Posted By: violentjack
Date Posted: 23-Aug-2006 at 06:49
|
Fikret Abdic present day 19 century Ali-Aga Rizvanbegovic ------------- Bosnjaci,probudite se ili nestanite |
Posted By: Vivek Sharma
Date Posted: 23-Aug-2006 at 07:35
|
For me it would be Mir Qassim the commander of the Bengal Army who defected to Lord Clive's side for Rs. 50,00,000 in 1750. This move of his gave the British a footing in the Indian subcontinent & eventually led to the british rule. Also closeby would be the Bangash nawabs of Rampur, India, who lent military support to the Britishers, when they were loosing heavily in India,s first war of indiependence in 1857. ------------- PATTON NAGAR, Brains win over Brawn |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 27-Aug-2006 at 15:17
|
Perhaps it was Dafydd Gam a man who betrayed the Welsh during Owain Glyndwr's rebellion to fight on the side of the English.
He later joined Henry V at the Battle of Agincourt in 1415 and was killed in battle.
(This is my first post on this forum, even though I've been a member since September 2004...this is pretty weird.)
|
Posted By: Datuna
Date Posted: 29-Aug-2006 at 11:54
|
trators? hm
STALIN
|
Posted By: TheDiplomat
Date Posted: 05-Sep-2006 at 13:18
|
in which sense did he betray to the Georgian State? He even wrongfully asked Turkey for giving up two cities(Ardahan and Kars) so that he could give them to georgia i suppose?
IMO, he was exactly an eastern version of Hitler. Hitler was Austrian by birth,but he was German by soul. Same goes with Stalin. Altough he was georgian by birth, he was in love with having a Russian identity. ------------- ARDA:The best Turkish diplomat ever! |
Posted By: mamikon
Date Posted: 05-Sep-2006 at 13:20
|
He was the Commissar of the Caucasus region during the Bolshevik
revolution and during the 1920s. He gave lands designated to Georgia to
the republic of Turkey. He wanted Kars and Ardahan back after WWII, and give it to Armenians (this was spearheaded by Molotov). And he was also the one who gave Kars and Ardahan to Turkey... ------------- |
Posted By: TheDiplomat
Date Posted: 05-Sep-2006 at 13:43
|
I and my origins come from Ardahan,and these cities were given to the imperialist Russian state by the Ottomans as a compensation of war back in 1878. So he could not be called a traitor for that,i suppose. What is more, BATUMI was also supposed to be given to Turkey for the same reason,but it remained within the Georgian Socialist Republic,as The RedArmy told Turkey that it would not give it back. So I suspect Stalin's hand there.
Please let us remember the fact that the philosophy that lies behind the establishment of the USSR is the struggle against imperialism.
Stalin was a true traitor to HUMANITY ,but not to the georgian state ,in my opinion. ------------- ARDA:The best Turkish diplomat ever! |
Posted By: Kapikulu
Date Posted: 05-Sep-2006 at 18:03
They were given back to Turkey with the Treaty of Brest-Litovsk, in which Stalin didn't really play any role...And Batum was given back to USSR with Treaty of Kars.
It was made more with Lenin's pressure, rather was an obligation for the Reds to settle themselves up in Russia. ------------- We gave up your happiness Your hope would be enough; we couldn't find neither; we made up sorrows for ourselves; we couldn't be consoled; A Strange Orhan Veli |
Posted By: mamikon
Date Posted: 05-Sep-2006 at 19:51
|
True, there was a treaty of Brest-Litovsk in 1917-1918 which gave
Batumi, Kars and Ardahan to Turkey. However, as Enver's Army of Islam
attacked Armenia in 1918 the treaty was broken. It was also considered
absolete when Germany and the Ottoman Empire lost WWI. Stalin was behind the treaty of Kars in 1921. As a result of the treaty Georgia lost Artvin, which was under the Georgian/Armenian governship following Georgian-Armenian War of 1918 (discontinued by British intervention). from Wiki: The Treaty of Kars was a friendship treaty between http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkey - Turkey and the Soviet governments of the Transcaucasian Republics. It was signed in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kars - Kars on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/October_23 - October 23 , http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1921 - 1921 and ratified in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yerevan - Yerevan on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/September_11 - September 11 , http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1922 - 1922 . http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Kars#_note-0 - [1] Turkey ceded http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ajaria - Ajaria with its largest city of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Batumi - Batumi http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Kars#_note-1 - [2] to the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_Union - Soviet Union and the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transcaucasian_SFSR - Transcaucasian SFSR in return for sovereignty over the cities of Kars and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ardahan - Ardahan . The treaty effectively ended the short-lived http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democratic_Republic_of_Armenia - Democratic Republic of Armenia that had been established under the previous http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_S%C3%A8vres - Treaty of Sèvres . http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenia - Armenia does not recognize the treaty to this day. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Kars ------------- |
Posted By: Kapikulu
Date Posted: 06-Sep-2006 at 05:22
I don't know if there is any pass over the Armenian territory of the time, but it is a fact that Enver's army was marching to Azerbaidjan, all the way to Baku, for its Pan-Turkic aims...
Ask the Soviet guys about keeping Armenia under control,though. ------------- We gave up your happiness Your hope would be enough; we couldn't find neither; we made up sorrows for ourselves; we couldn't be consoled; A Strange Orhan Veli |
Posted By: Barbarroja
Date Posted: 06-Sep-2006 at 06:37
|
Simon Bolivar, Sucre, and all independent leaders of America, who fought against their country, Spain. But history changes and now they are heroes in their countries.
And Charles IV and Ferdinand VII who gave the power to Napoleon and when Ferdinand returned he returned to absolutism and delete the constitution. ------------- I'm sorry but my English is not very good. I'm from Vila-real (Valencia, Spain) |
Posted By: mamikon
Date Posted: 06-Sep-2006 at 09:22
|
Enver's march to Baku was in 1918 not 1920s. And he did send a regiment
to Yerevan, which was defeated. The battle which is celebrated in
Armenia every year. Those "Soviet guys" attacked Armenia from the East, when Armenia was protecting itself from Turkish raids into the Ararat valley. ------------- |
Posted By: Kapikulu
Date Posted: 06-Sep-2006 at 18:05
Wanna bet?
 Ottoman army's(Which I mean, and I thought you meant by saying Enver's army) march into Baku was in September 1918 after the first English invasion of Baku...Though after Turkish cease fire in Mondros, English army came back to Baku.
The small portion of already weakened and collapsing Ottoman army was sent to Caucasus to control Azerbaidjan primarily(Well one more time thanks to infamous Enver Pasha's dreams)...Its main objective was Baku, so they succeeded on that..I believe it is quite normal for the attack on Yerevan to be repulsed as the army out there was already not too large and not in good conditions like Ottoman armies everywhere..
Enver just had gone to Azerbaidjan in 1920 to revive his Pan-Turkist plans.
------------- We gave up your happiness Your hope would be enough; we couldn't find neither; we made up sorrows for ourselves; we couldn't be consoled; A Strange Orhan Veli |
Posted By: Turk Nomad
Date Posted: 11-Sep-2006 at 08:00
|
Giyaseddin Keyhüsrev,he ran from an Uighur Turk army of İlhanlı Empire,and left his men. |
Posted By: mamikon
Date Posted: 11-Sep-2006 at 10:44
|
Wanna bet about what? you said the same thing I said... The battle of Sardarapat was in May and Enver captured Baku in September of 1918. Since the Ottoman Army in the Caucasus front was under Enver's command (again) then wouldnt you expect the army sent to Sardarapat be part of his army? ------------- |
Posted By: Kapikulu
Date Posted: 11-Sep-2006 at 12:40
Who said it was in 1920s then?I am barely confused nowadays  ...I probably thought you said 1920 after you had mentioned the date..------------- We gave up your happiness Your hope would be enough; we couldn't find neither; we made up sorrows for ourselves; we couldn't be consoled; A Strange Orhan Veli |
Posted By: mamikon
Date Posted: 11-Sep-2006 at 12:51
|
me too When did I say that Enver attacked Baku in 1920? ------------- |
Posted By: Kalevipoeg
Date Posted: 12-Sep-2006 at 03:52
|
Estonian bolsheviks are anti-Estonians, or traitors of Estonia. ------------- There is nothing in the world more helpless and irresponsible than a man in the depths of an ether binge... |
Posted By: Ponce de Leon
Date Posted: 15-Sep-2006 at 00:52
Not only that, but those latin american heroes were not even good generals, and even worse politicians. ALl their plans broke down after they kicked the Spanish out and all these jumbles of countries formed. Pity that it was only the rich guys like simon bolivar who actually wanted to revolt for self-gain, while the rest of the people didnt care more or less ------------- |
Posted By: MontanaGuy86
Date Posted: 15-Sep-2006 at 04:47
I was actually going to say Prime Minister Mcdonald, but hes probaly not the worst traiter. I am also waiting for someone to answer the question about the southern right to succeed. ------------- 
|
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 16-Sep-2006 at 06:07
| The worst traitor in Jewish history would have to be Mordechai Vanunu. |
Posted By: Mordoth
Date Posted: 21-Sep-2006 at 15:13
|
There have never been so much traitors such like in TURKISH history .
Cerkes Ethem
Sheik Said
Crowds of Menemen
Christostomos
Cakircali Mehmed Efe
...and hundreds of them . ------------- If Electricity Comes from Electrons ; does Morality come from Morons :| |
Posted By: Turk Nomad
Date Posted: 24-Sep-2006 at 06:20
| Most of them ethnicly aren't Turk,this is another story =) |
Posted By: Mordoth
Date Posted: 24-Sep-2006 at 10:06
|
Do not also Forget ;
Ali Riza , the Journalist
Vahdettin , The Sultan
Damat Ferid Pasha
------------- If Electricity Comes from Electrons ; does Morality come from Morons :| |
Posted By: Register666666
Date Posted: 30-Sep-2006 at 21:17
|
As an American I have a few, but in modern times, I would say: Linden Johnson and George Bush Jr. I'm not sure I should list my reasons as it might start some flame wars. I'll just mention the U.S.S. liberty for Johnson, as for Bush, I think it's pretty obvious at this point. |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 06-Dec-2006 at 04:49
|
Efialtis who had drove persians behind the lines of spartans in battle of thermopiles.
The goverment of Gounaris which drove my nation into biggest destruction of 20th century,micrasiatic destruction.
byzantines generals in battle of magikert with turks,left the empire army without renforcements in the considerable moments of this battle and the opportunity to send turks back to Asia.
|
Posted By: Dan Carkner
Date Posted: 06-Dec-2006 at 10:30
|
It's interesting the answers that a lot of people gave. I wouldn't agree with a lot of them.. sometimes people are just following their own twisted logic, or maybe they were wronged by the government they betrayed, who knows. And in other cases I would agree that they are bad people but not really "Traitors". I guess I'm not nationalistic enough to consider anyone in Canadian history a true "traitor", some people have done right or wrong but they were all just trying to get by.. |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 07-Dec-2006 at 07:42
|
Iam jealous of nations such as canada or swiss because for some reasons you always have a peaceful life without the possible danger of a war but on the other hand there are areas like Balkans which have always nations conflict each other.. |