Rapist sentenced to 20 years
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Topic: Rapist sentenced to 20 years
Posted By: Mila
Subject: Rapist sentenced to 20 years
Date Posted: 08-Dec-2005 at 22:14
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Ahmici furious with weak sentence for Bralo
 Ahmici, Bosnia and Herzegovina - "This is the tree they tied me to," explained Adjana Demirovic. "Here is where my father was standing when they shot him. My mother they hit with their guns, here, until she was dead. Then they came to me. After they left I remained for most of the next day until my brother found me." The Demirovic family is among those furious the International Criminal Tribunal for the former Yugoslavia handed down what they say is a weak sentence in the Miroslav Bralo case. The former Bosnian Croat paramilitary who raped and murdered dozens of Bosnian Muslims, mainly women and girls, during the 1990s war was sentenced to 20 years in prison for war crimes. The tribunal took into consideration Bralo's "sincere remorse" and his gesture of good will in helping locate the bodies of his victims in deciding the appropriate sentence. His unit, called the Jokers, rampaged through Muslim villages in central Bosnia in 1993 during a major Bosnian Croat offensive on Bosnian Serb positions.
In Ahmici, Bralo's unit blew up a mosque during prayers,
killing among others the whole of two families, including nine
children. Dozens more were raped and murdered, including one girl of 6
years and two of 8. He took at least one woman as a permanant prisoner, repeatedly raping her in front of his colleagues during the two months he held her captive. "The trial chamber accepts that his remorse is indeed sincere and heartfelt and that he has undergone a personal transformation since the commission of his crimes," the Judge said. Bralo surrendered to the tribunal a year ago and pleaded not guilty to the original 1995 indictment, which included nine counts of grave breaches of the Geneva Conventions and 12 of violations of the laws and customs of war.
But he later agreed an unconditional plea bargain with
UN prosecutors on a simplified indictment that added the charge of
persecution, a crime against humanity. "It's not enough. They should total the number of years he stole from the people he killed and sentence him," Demirovic insisted. ------------- |
Replies:
Posted By: ill_teknique
Date Posted: 08-Dec-2005 at 23:12
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Prison? Either ship him back to Ahmici or here so I can finish
him off - rapists do not deserve to live or enojoy the benefits of a
civilized legal system seing as they are not.
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Posted By: Maju
Date Posted: 09-Dec-2005 at 00:16
A benevolent punishment is execution. 20 years is a joke. 
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NO GOD, NO MASTER! |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 09-Dec-2005 at 01:08
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the best is to "cut him short"..... Is it a logic punishment? ------------- |
so he wont be a full funtion male.. 
Posted By: Maju
Date Posted: 09-Dec-2005 at 01:44
I would agree for the "common" rapist but for such a war criminal... just put him down like a mad dog. -------------
NO GOD, NO MASTER! |
Posted By: amir khan
Date Posted: 09-Dec-2005 at 03:23
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Wow! this is insane. 20 years for his war crimes! ridiculous! I am generally against capital punishment, but even I have no reservations about death penelty for "War Criminals" convicted of such crimes. Probably what saved him was his "remorse". They say he has "sincere remorse", thats a joke!, his initial plea was not guilty. I am sure he would do it again for "Croats" if he had a chance, animals like him never change. In any case, I have never seen war criminals not pretend to look remorseful when caught. The Nuremberg Nazi's looked remorseful, Goering particularly so. Yamash*ta looked remorseful, I even felt a little sorry for him! The Croat general caught in the Spanish Canary Islands recently will look remorseful very soon, for sure. Only Saddam continues to look and talk arrogantly, and we all know he lives on another planet. 20 years for his large scale killings, rapings etc. is pathetic. Gary Glitter will probably get worse! Should have been death.
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Posted By: Zagros
Date Posted: 09-Dec-2005 at 06:04
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This was rape as a tool of terror and hate, different from rape for rape's sake. I agree with castration for ordinary rapists, for him definately death. ------------- |
Posted By: Tuman Yabgu
Date Posted: 09-Dec-2005 at 06:23
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You kill many non-combattant, you maim many non-combattants, you physically, sexually and mentally scar many non-combattants and you get 20 years jail? !!!! 1 life = 1 life, he deserves death sentences as the amount he ended. So sad. May God provide his blessing upon his victims and every decent man and woman on earth. ------------- The truth is out there! "Borders? I have never seen one, but heard they exist on the minds of most of people" Prof. Thor Heyerdahl |
Posted By: Constantine XI
Date Posted: 09-Dec-2005 at 06:48
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With his case no punishment can fully compensate, even with "eye for an eye" style punishments. He raped and he killed, you can't produce a sentance that will deliver that much loss to him. ------------- |
Posted By: Mila
Date Posted: 09-Dec-2005 at 09:42
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I do appreciate it when they show remorse. There is no way to tell if
they are truly being sincere, but at the very least you can be certain
they know what they did is considered wrong in popular, world opinion.
At the very least they don't feel they can express their true views in
public. That, in my heart, is a significant victory because for so long
hatred was official policy here. You could say literally anything about
any group of people and at least one other would cheer for you in the
streets. The sentence is a little short, for me, though. It just frustrates me because we haven't even identified all the bodies yet, in fact, we haven't even found them all. Our towns and villages are not rebuilt. There's still people who went into the cafes to watch the day Slobodan Milosevic's trial started who are still sitting there, waiting. And already the first round of those charged and sentenced are nearing the end of their sentences - for example: A survivor faces her tormentor By Sandro Contenta, Prijedor, Bosnia and Herzegovina A few days ago, Nusreta Sivac came face to face with the man who ran the concentration camp where she was raped and others were killed.  It's not uncommon in today's Bosnia for victims and perpetrators of a war that ended in 1995 to cross paths. And nowhere is this more likely than in the Prijedor area, where Muslim victims of ‘ethnic cleansing’ by Bosnian Serbs are returning in force. For Sivac, a pre-war civil court judge who returned in 1999, the chance encounter was especially charged with emotion. Walking towards her was Miroslav Kvocka, a Bosnian Serb she testified against at the war crimes tribunal in The Hague. He was released two months ago, after serving two thirds of a seven-year sentence for war crimes. Sivac gathered up her courage. ‘I hadn't seen him since the trial,’ she says, ‘and suddenly there he was, walking arm-in-arm with his wife, a Bosniak (Muslim) who was my childhood friend. They looked so proud.’ ‘Maybe they thought I would be afraid. But I looked him right in the eyes, and he lowered his head,’ says Sivac, 52. It was a moment of personal triumph for the survivor of Omarska camp, where 3,000 Bosnian Muslims and Bosnian Croats were tortured and starved. On one of Prijedor's bleak streets, human dignity had prevailed. http://www.bosnia.org.uk/bosrep/report_format.cfm?articleid=1095&reportid=164 - http://www.bosnia.org.uk/bosrep/report_format.cfm?articleid= 1095&reportid=164 ------------- |
Posted By: Styrbiorn
Date Posted: 09-Dec-2005 at 10:08
| Be glad he wasn't tried in Sweden; he'd have a "naughty,naughty!" and three months conditional sentence. |
Posted By: Mila
Date Posted: 09-Dec-2005 at 10:15
Hahaha - sounds like female defendants here. I tell you, women can get
away with anything in Bosnia and Herzegovina. Very rarely will it even
get to the courts, and even then - just dress nicely, act politely, and
blame everything on the frustration that your man either won't let you
- or don't have a man to - serve. "But your honor, she killed 17 people with a hammer and nails?" "And you tell me, what did her husband do that night, before all this happened?" "But your honor..." "Answer the question!" "He cooked dinner himself...  "------------- |
Posted By: SearchAndDestroy
Date Posted: 09-Dec-2005 at 10:59
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Send him to Texas, he'll pay the price down there. They love their executions, atleast the court system does.
------------- "A patriot must always be ready to defend his country against his government." E.Abbey 
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Posted By: Genghis
Date Posted: 09-Dec-2005 at 11:55
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What a sick son of a bitch, I don't think death is harsh enough for this bastard. Send him to an American prison where he can be raped and forced to feel the physical, emotional, and psychological pain he forced on all those people. To hell with his human rights, this guy isn't a human being, he's a disgusting little worm. ------------- Member of IAEA |
Posted By: jiangweibaoye
Date Posted: 09-Dec-2005 at 12:27
Genghis, Totally agree. All countries should observe Human Rights, but in the situation of genocide and rape, all bets are off. This man and his "men" deserves death and anything short of that is a great injustice to mankind. It also angers me that the American media has not made this well known. Jiangwei |
Posted By: Mila
Date Posted: 09-Dec-2005 at 12:29
A few years ago... A group of Bosnian Muslim orphans chats in front of a destroyed mosque in the central Bosnian village of Ahmici Friday, March 3, 2000. The U.N. war crimes tribunal for ex-Yugoslavia in the Hague found former Bosnian Croat General Tihomir Blaskic guilty for orchestarting etchnic cleansing campaign against Bosnian Moslems during the country's 1992-95 war and sentenced him to 45 years in prison. Residents of Ahmici insist a Bosnian Croat paramilitary, Miroslav Bralo, should be the man behind bars. His group, nicknamed the Jokers, left Ahmici with a ratio of one adult for every 32 people under the age of 18.  Bosnian Croats lighting candles for their dearest killed by the Muslim-led Bosnian Army during the 1992-95 Bosnian war, on April 16, 2000, in the central Bosnian village of Ahmici. Three Bosnian Muslim commanders, accused of war crimes by the Hague Tribunal, pleaded innocent on Thursday to 19 counts of war crimes, saying they should not be held responsible for the execution of at least 118 Bosnian Croat paramilitaries, prisoners of war protected under the Geneva Conventions, captured following a vicious attack on Ahmici during the Bosnian war. ^ I'd say that picture is wrong, but I know what they say happened really did. And the cross is very clearly a Catholic cross - but I can't understand why the Serbian flag is on one of the wreaths? The Serbs and Croats cannot be friends. They're bad enough on us fighting, when we can choose to be on one of their sides or the other. If they come together against us, we'll be f--ked with a capital J. ------------- |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 09-Dec-2005 at 12:37
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Can the victims plead for re-trial? Ask for more ... better or suitable punishment? ------------- |
Posted By: amir khan
Date Posted: 09-Dec-2005 at 12:58
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I understand you speak in the spirit of reconciliation, but I still think the sentance should be a LOT more. For justice and maybe for future deterrance.
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Posted By: Cywr
Date Posted: 09-Dec-2005 at 17:33
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Life at least i should think.
-------------  Arrrgh!!"
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Posted By: çok geç
Date Posted: 09-Dec-2005 at 18:09
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True won't necessary compensate the losses, neither executing him. However, punishing him will teach others. I wish his sentance was reduced from execution to life in prison. Let him rotten the rest of his life in a single jail room. ------------- D.J. Kaufman Wisdom is the reward for a lifetime of listening ... when youd have preferred to talk. |
Posted By: Constantine XI
Date Posted: 09-Dec-2005 at 18:21
Yes, the sad thing about these capital crimes is that there really is no sufficient remedy to fit it. In legal studies they taught us that in sentencing justice should have 5 key aspect at its most basic level. It must rehabilitate, punish, deter others, remove a threat to society and encourage the people to abide by the law. Rehabilitation isn't able to be fulfilled here, but the other four criteria can be fulfilled well enough with a severe punishment. I think a lifetime of jail rape, lack of freedom etc would be worse than a quick death. My problem with life sentences is that they are so expensive, paying for his food, entertainment, shelter and guards (VERY expensive), medical bills etc is simply a drain on society. I am opposed to life sentences because of that, unless they make the person in question labour in economically productive activities. ------------- |
Posted By: Mila
Date Posted: 09-Dec-2005 at 18:49
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I would estimate that close to half of all Bosniaks aren't concerned
about punishments at all. It is certainly the second, if not the first,
most common perspective on all this. Most people seem to simply want
the guilty verdicts. So many people still deny what happened here, or
try to equalize it between all three groups, that for every Bosnian
Serb or Croat who is convicted, and every Bosniak acquitted, there is a
great deal of focus on that moreso than on inidividual sentences. The Jewish community here is pushing this the most. Jakov Finci gave a speech saying how 60 years after the holocaust, people still deny it took place. And now with the war in Bosnia, when everything was filmed and brought to the public in real time, there are still those who deny it - not just in Serbia, or traditional allies like Russia and Greece, but throughout the word. So the Jewish community maintains a list of all those accussed, all crimes, all massacres, etc...that took place. They were the ones who actually produced the lists with every name of every civilian killed in Sarajevo, in addition to another list with the name of every soldier. They even detailed the age of every "solider" to demonstrate they're not talking about an army, but rather armed citizens of Sarajevo. I kind of agree with this somewhat. I could agree completely if they were banned from ever returning to Bosnia and Herzegovina. But since they are allowed to come back, they should be punished for as long as possible - if only to keep them away. ------------- |
Posted By: poirot
Date Posted: 09-Dec-2005 at 18:55
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Genghis, I like your solution. ------------- AAAAAAAAAA "The crisis of yesterday is the joke of tomorrow.ďż˝ ~ HG Wells |
Posted By: Styrbiorn
Date Posted: 11-Dec-2005 at 09:33
| On the topic of punishment, I saw the Danes are seriously considering to introduce castration as a punishment for the most serious rape crimes. |
Posted By: Mila
Date Posted: 11-Dec-2005 at 09:45
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It wouldn't surprise me. They're going very right-wing. One of their politicians openly said Muslims were a cancer.
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Posted By: morticia
Date Posted: 11-Dec-2005 at 10:05
That would be great...but without any anesthesia!! ------------- "Morty Trust in God: She will provide." -- Emmeline Pankhurst |
Posted By: vulkan02
Date Posted: 11-Dec-2005 at 12:26
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Ehh just another case of extreme alpha male behaviour, these things
have stopped surprising me anymore but yeah he should probably get life
in jail instead. Now think about this: Imagine if these type guys who are currently serving long sentences in the jails of the world got out one day simulaneously and were let lose in our gentle modern society. God be with you, your relatives but especially with your wife and daughers.  ------------- The beginning of a revolution is in reality the end of a belief - Le Bon Destroy first and construction will look after itself - Mao |
Posted By: Socrates
Date Posted: 12-Dec-2005 at 07:07
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I have to do this again since u mention Serbs and Jews again: "The crimes of the fascist Ustashe against the Serbs in the notorius camp of Jasenovac must be known-crimes that are the worst ones along with those commited against the Jews in Holocaust.'' Simon Wiesenthal http://www.jasenovac.org - www.jasenovac.org And who denied that video(Srebrenica)?Most of Serbs were shocked.It was worse then a horror film-real people were involved.Yes,some claimed it was propaganda,that the whole thing was "directed"-but they quickly exhausted all their arguments. All war criminals have to face their deeds.Includes Albanians-those two that went as free men from Hague...not the first time-many Bosniak and Serbian war criminals were sentenced to low sentences just because they admitted the crimes.One Serb whose wife was a Bosniak-who saved great no. of Bosniaks(they testified on his behalf) was sentenced on a long-term sentence cause he wouldn't admit something he never did(they offered him a ridicuolous sentence if he only admited). Serbo-Croatian conspiracy?I'll try to find one interesting article...
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Posted By: Kynsi
Date Posted: 12-Dec-2005 at 13:57
This is so ironic that I dont know should I laugh or cry but this scenario actually happened in here Finland to Hazim Delic and Esad Landzo. Both men were working(Delic second in command and Landzo a guard) in the consentration camp in Clebicin, Bosnia Herzegovina. They were prosecuted for numerous rapes, assaults, murders, unlegal arrests and unhumane treating of prisoners. For example beating a 70 year old man to death and then nailing the party's metal insignia to hes forehead. Burining genitals with a fuse. Lanzo forcing two relative men to have sex with each other while other prisoners watching. The list goes on and on. Hazim Delic and Esad Landzo were senteced by The Hague. The total years were Delic for 67 years and Landzo 57 but according to the tribunal each of the convictions could be sufferd simultainiously so the final convivtions were Delic for 18 years and Landzo for 15 years. After they were sentenced they were transfered to Finland and according to Finland's (perverted)law they will probably suffer two of third from their sentence. This means Landzo may be free next year and Delic during this decade. Back stabing humanity in Finland 2003!  ------------- If you keep one eye on the past then you are blind in one eye, but if you forget the past then you are blind in both eyes -old russian saying |
Posted By: ill_teknique
Date Posted: 12-Dec-2005 at 14:25
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send him to bosnia or here like i said doesnt matter he'll be seeing a punishment fitting his actions
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Posted By: Mila
Date Posted: 12-Dec-2005 at 14:28
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Oh God, Hazim Delic was a monster. Landzo as well, but Delic
especially. You know he actually had a crowd of more than one dozen
supporters protesting on his behalf, for him to be acquitted? Celebici might have been a small camp, given the size of the others operating on the territory of Bosnia and Herzegovina between 1992 and 1995, but they certainly made up for it with their tortures. Here is a complete list of the indictees charged with war crimes, it's not completely up to date in terms of sentences but it's worth looking at. Rahim Ademi Croatian army general, ethnic Albanian Milan Babić Croatian Serb, prime minister of Republika Srpska Krajina Sentenced to thirteen years for his part in ethnic cleansing Haradin Bala Kosovo Albanian, Kosovo Liberation Army prison camp guard Idriz Balaj Kosovo Albanian, Kosovo Liberation Army special unit commander Beqë Beqaj Albanian indicted for contempt of the tribunal for allegedly interfering with witnesses in the case against Fatmir Limaj and Isak Musliu Vidoje Blagojević Bosnian Serb, Bosnian Serb Army officer Sentenced to 18 years for involvement in the Srebrenica massacre Tihomir Blaškić Croatian, Croatian Army general convicted, partially dismissed in appeal, since released Janko Bobetko Croatian Chief of staff, Croatian army indicted, died before the case could be heard Ljube Boškovski Macedonian Interior minister of Macedonia for Ljuboten attack Lahi Brahimaj Kosovo Albanian, Kosovo Liberation Army Ljubomir Borovcanin Serb indicted in Srebrenica case Goran Borovnica Serb indicted in Prijedor case Miroslav Bralo Bosnian Croat Ivan Čermak Croatian army general awaiting trial Mario Čerkez Croatian sentenced to 15 years for offensives in Lašva Valley, Bosnia Hazim Delić Bosnian Muslim, Bosnian prison camp deputy commander Sentenced to twenty years, found guilty of murder & rape Rasim Delić Bosnian Muslim, Bosnian Army General Vlastimir Đorđević Serb army general Đorđe Đukić Serb indicted for shelling civilian targets, died before case was tried Stanislav Galić Bosnian Serb indicted for Sarajevo; sentenced to 20 years ; appeal pending. Milan Gvero Bosnian Serb indicted for Srebrenica Ante Gotovina Croat, army general Momčilo Gruban Serb indicted in Omarska Camp case Sefer Halilović Bosnian Muslim for massacres in the villages of Grabovica and Uzdol, Bosnia Ramush Haradinaj Albanian prime minister of Kosovo indicted for action while regional commander of the Kosovo Liberation Army Gojko Janković Bosnian Serb Goran Jelisić Serb convicted Dragan Jokić Bosnian Serb sentenced to 9 years for involvement in Srebrenica massacre Miodrag Jokić Serb admiral in Yugoslav navy sentenced to seven years for the bombing of Dubrovnik Drago Josipović Croat convicted for the massacres in Ahmići-Šantići Radovan Karadžić Montenegrin, former President of Republika Srpska Genocide,Crimes against humanity,Violations of the laws or customs of war & Grave breaches of the Geneva conventions of 1949 Duško Knežević Serb indicted in Omarska Camp case Dario Kordić Croat sentenced to 25 years for offensives in the Lašva Valley, Bosnia Radomir Kovač Serb convicted Momčilo Krajišnik Bosnian Serb prime minister of Republika Srpska Milorad Krnojelac Bosnian Serb, Bosnian Serb prison commander Sentenced to fifteen years for the Foca prison camp Radislav Krstić Bosnian Serb, Bosnian Serb Army general Genocide, Crimes against humanity & Violations of the laws or customs of war Sentenced to thirty five years (Originally forty six years) Dragoljub Kunarac Serb convicted Esad Lanzo Bosnian Muslim convicted Vladimir Lazarevic Serb army general Fatmir Limaj Albanian Sreten Lukić Serb Serbian police general Mladen Markač Serb awaiting trial Milan Martić Serb prime minster of Republika Srpska Krajina Željko Meakić Bosnian Serb indicted in Omarska Camp case Radivoj Miletić Bosnian Serb indicted for Srebrenica Milan Milutinović Serb President of Serbia indicted for incidents while in authority during Kosovo War Dragomir Milošević Bosnian Serb indicted for command of siege of Sarajevo Slobodan Milošević Serb president of Serbia, president of Yugoslavia indicted for incidents while in authority during Kosovo War Ratko Mladić Bosnian Serb, Bosnian Serb Army Commander of the Main Staff Genocide,Complicity in Genocide,Crimes against Humanity & Violations of the laws & customs/war Darko Mrđa Bosnian Serb, Bosnian Serb police unit commander Sentenced to 17 years Mile Mrkšić Croatian Serb, Yugoslav Army Colonel, Later Republika Srpska Krajina Army Commander Indictment in relation to Vukovar Isak Musliu Kosovo Albanian, Kosovo Liberation Army commander Mladen Tuta Naletilić Bosnian Croat, Bosnian Croat paramilitary Dragan Nikolić Serb, Bosnian Serb Prison Commander Indicted in the Susica Camp case Sentenced to twenty years Drago Nikolić Bosnian Serb, Bosnian Serb Army Officer indicted in the Srebrenica case Dragan Obrenović Bosnian Serb, Bosnian Serb Army Lieuttenant-Colonel Sentenced to seventeen years Dragoljub Ojdanić Serb, Yugoslav Army Chief of Staff indicted for incidents while in authority during Kosovo War Naser Orić Bosnian Muslim, Bosnian Muslim Army commander of Srebrenica Violations of the laws or customs of war Vinko Pandurević Bosnian Serb, Bosnian Serb Army general indicted in the Srebrenica case Nebojša Pavković Serb, former Yugoslav Army chief of staff indicted for incidents while in authority during Kosovo War Biljana Plavšić Bosnian Serb, former President of Republika Srpska plead guilty, Sentenced to eleven years Vujadin Popović Bosnian Serb, Bosnian Serb Army Lieutenant colonel indicted in the Srebrenica case Miroslav Radić Serb, Yugoslav Army captain Mitar Rašević Serb Nikola Šainović Serb, Former deputy prime minister of Yugoslavia indicted for incidents while in authority during Kosovo War Vladimir Šantić Bosnian Croat Freed on appeal Vojislav Šešelj Serb, President of the Serbian Radical Party (SRS) Duško Sikirica Bosnian Serb, Bosnian Serb prison commander Sentenced to fifteen years Veselin Šljivančanin Montenegrin, Yugoslav army battalion commander related to Vukovar Mićo Stanišić Bosnian Serb, Former Bosnian Serb interior minister Crimes against humanity and Violations of the laws or customs of war Vlajko Stojiljković Serb, Former Serbian interior minister Indicted with Slobodan Milosevic Commited suicide before trial Pavle Strugar Montenegrin, Yugoslav Army general sentenced to eight years for command authority in bombing of Dubrovnik Duško Tadić Bosnian Serb, Serbian Democratic Party leader in Kozarac and member of paramilitary force Sentenced to twenty five years Miroslav Tadić Bosnian Serb, Chairman of Bosanki Samac 'Exchange commision' sentenced to eight years in the Bosanski Šamac case, given early release Johan Tarculovski Macedonian, Macedonian police officer for Ljuboten attack Stevan Todorović Bosnian Serb, Bosnian Serb police head for the municipalty of Bosanki Samac Sentenced to ten years Savo Todović Bosnian Serb, Bosnian Serb prison commander Zdravko Tolimir Bosnian Serb, Bosnian Serb Army assistant commander Crimes against humanity and Violations of the laws or customs of war Mitar Vasiljević Bosnian Serb, Bosnian Serb paramilitary Sentenced to twenty years, Found guilty of crimes against humanity Zoran Vuković Bosnian Serb, Bosnian Serb Army soldier Sentenced to twelve years, Found guilty of rape & torture http://www.notfah.com/wiki/International_Criminal_Tribunal _for_the_Former_Yugoslavia ------------- |
Posted By: vulkan02
Date Posted: 12-Dec-2005 at 20:08
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Its funny how they exclusively mention either Croatians, Albanians and
Serbs (Bosnians or not) uhuhuh very believeable . I find it hard to
believe that Bosnians were the angels in this conflict, after all like
the Kosovo Albanians they must have been involved as well in this same
killing and slaughetring as the others did.
------------- The beginning of a revolution is in reality the end of a belief - Le Bon Destroy first and construction will look after itself - Mao |
Posted By: ill_teknique
Date Posted: 13-Dec-2005 at 01:37
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they have a couple of names up naser orics is still on trial and hallilovic i think was just aquited
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Posted By: Mila
Date Posted: 13-Dec-2005 at 08:13
They mention our war criminals specifically as well. They just use the term "Bosnian Muslim" instead of "Bosniak", read the list again - they're there. We may not have been the angels - but we were certainly the least armed. We also had all groups represented in our "army" - which was, more or less, an organization of civilians. For example, our general was a Bosnian Serb. We didn't attack Serbia or Croatia, the same can't be said for them. We did not conspire with either of them to split the other in half, the same can't be said for them. We didn't kill roughly 10 per cent of their people and force more than half the population from their homes. We didn't adopt ethnic cleansing as an official policy, as something celebrated in the media with large public support. Did we kill innocent Bosnian Serbs and Bosnian Croats - of course. "Only" 80 per cent of war's victims were Bosniaks. That leaves 20 per cent who were Bosnian Serbs and Bosnian Croats. Subtract those they killed themselves by bombing multiethnic cities like Sarajevo, and by Serb-led 'Croat cleansing' in places like Banja Luka, and by Croat-led 'Serb cleansing' in places like Novi Travnik - and that number will show you how many we killed. Now does that make the individuals who committed these crimes as bad as any Croat or Serb war criminal, of course. Does it suddenly make us equal partners in a war where we were clearly the target of genocide, as has already been shown by the ICTY? That's up to you. I could never think that way. To me it is like using the Warsaw uprising to justify the holocaust. Using the massacres of German civilians to justify Stalingrad - which, by the way, is no longer the longest siege in modern, military history. Sarajevo has that title now. ------------- |
Posted By: Mila
Date Posted: 13-Dec-2005 at 08:38
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There, I went back and bolded the Bosniaks, Vulkan. Now they should be more clear.
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Posted By: ill_teknique
Date Posted: 13-Dec-2005 at 13:28
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The thing is that we did not have the ability to actually strike back
if we wanted. In 92 the weapons were moved out by the "jugoslav
army." Out of croatia and bosnia before the wars even started the
ethnic make up of the army by that time was overwhelmingly serb as was
the cabinet and all chief government offices. We did not start
regaining lost territory untill 94 and then at Dayton we were made to
give up all we gained pretty much and agree to that bs 49 51 division
of the country. And anyone that still considers this a civil war
ask yourself why milosevic and tudjman were present at the dayton peace
accords.
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Posted By: Mila
Date Posted: 13-Dec-2005 at 13:33
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Oh civil war drives me CRAZY! It doesn't bother me from the West,
they're thinking...civil war within Yugoslavia. But when they say civil
war within Bosnia and Herzegovina, that's just stupid. The first soldiers to attack Bosnia and Herzegovina en masse crossed from the "Serb Republic of Krajina" (Croatia). That's three countries involved the first week. And loads more found their way in. ------------- |
Posted By: vulkan02
Date Posted: 13-Dec-2005 at 17:55
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I meant to say "almost exclusively" as I saw the names the first time around. History many times over takes the side of those who seem like the weak and helpless nation in conflict without first looking for the real causes of the conflict. In other words we hope to prevent things by picking up obvious short-term cause and effect rather than to look back in time and see the situation as a whole. Im not saying that Bosnians, or Kosovars or Croats were the ones who were the real guilty people of starting this war.But if you just look a while back at WW2 the Serbs were the victims of the atrocious Croatian Ustace movement which eliminated between 300000-600000 Serbs. In Kosovo, Nazis set up special SS forces (SS scanderbeg) of Albanians to clear out Serbs and I suppose something similar must have also happened in Bosnia. Could it be possible that there is a lot more Bosniaks(muslims) who are hiding or are free because Bosnia was considered the victim nation? ------------- The beginning of a revolution is in reality the end of a belief - Le Bon Destroy first and construction will look after itself - Mao |
Posted By: Mila
Date Posted: 13-Dec-2005 at 18:19
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Well there are loads hiding, but they've already lowered the scale. The Bosniaks who were indicted were indicted for charges far less significant in SCALE - not in brutality, in SCALE - than their Serb counterparts. Serbs who did what these Bosniaks are charged with won't even be arrested, it was so common. So they basically went after the top rungs of criminals from each group. If they had said, for example, we're only going to convict those who committed genocide - there wouldn't be a single Croat or Bosniak up there. ------------- |
Posted By: ill_teknique
Date Posted: 13-Dec-2005 at 21:08
Yeah that is the thing. They needed to garner up some Bosnians and Croats in order to balance out the war crimes tribunal due to the fact that if they were going by henious crimes alone they'd have like five on one side and countless on the other, while if they degraded the standard into lower crimes for both you'd have like fifty on one and ten thousand on the other. The funny thing is that when you say that people say you're being biased, how am I being biased when I know that the scale would be like that because I lived through that war. ------------- |
Posted By: Mila
Date Posted: 13-Dec-2005 at 21:32
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I still think it's a good thing, ill_teknique. The people that were killed by our side deserve it, and especially their surviving loved ones need it. I just hope it doesn't overshadow the nature of the conflict. If we get 10,000 Bosniaks and Croats convicted of murder, rape, torture...and one Serb convicted of genocide, it still weighs differently to me. And the same would be true in reverse. Take WWII, for example. Bosniaks were Partizans, Bosniaks were Ustase, Bosniaks were on every side you can think of. We were massacred as well, especially along the Serbian border. On and on... but some of our people were part of an organized campaign with the extention to erradicate Jews, Serbs, and Gypsies. That's genocide, whether they used the term back then or not, and that is worse. ------------- |
Posted By: Cezar
Date Posted: 16-Dec-2005 at 09:20
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The punishment for those individuals will never compensate their deeds. If it were about me, only a forced labour camp (for life!) would be a proper punishment. Keep them working till death. Something like communist labour camps we had here in Romania or Stalin in USSR. It might look unhuman but I think that such individuals are not to be considered human. No need for torture, just let them face a life of hard work (10-12h/day) with no chance of getting out of it. They might even be brought to work for the people who they hate most. Mila said something about a half of Sarajevo being still in ruins (I don't exectly remember the topic). Bring the criminals back to rebulid it, or at least a part of it! |
Posted By: Mila
Date Posted: 16-Dec-2005 at 11:30
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Well, not really half, Cezar. Sarajevo's population dropped by roughly
200,000 between 1992 and 1995. In a census in 1996, only two buildings
were not damaged. Remaining citizens fixed up their homes, the government fixed up religious buildings and the downtown core. But you still have enough infrastructure for 200,000 people which was not rebuilt because there's no one to rebuild it for. So refugees moved into these areas. Bosniaks, Bosnian Croats, Bosnian Serbs, Gypsies, and later Kosovar Albanians. These areas all have nicknames. Dobrinja district, for example, is Little Hiroshima. Nedzarici is Stalingrad, etc. There are of course groupings in this district where homes have been rebuilt (Anything facing main highways, the airport, international hotels, etc.) but for the most part they remain in ruins and are, officially, not populated. A Kosovar ALbanian woman who took refuge in a ruin in Dobrinja, fixed it up with her own sweat and blood, has been living there for half a 7 years now, can lose it tomorrow if the pre-war owners decide to reclaim it. That's what is tying the government's hands, from a legal standpoint, of helping them in these homes. INstead they're trying to force them into tent cities, etc. Having the criminals work in these areas would only help illegal settlement, they'll never do it. But they can't just sit on their asses either. ------------- |
Posted By: Mila
Date Posted: 16-Dec-2005 at 11:38
For example, here is what the main street facing the airport in Dobrinja (Little Hiroshima) looks like: Here is what a grouping in the center of the district where Bosniaks have returned to Sarajevo and rebuilt their homes looks like:   And here is what the areas where refugees live looks like:   ------------- |
Posted By: Cezar
Date Posted: 16-Dec-2005 at 12:10
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Sorry to ask but what's the difference between a Bosnian Serb/Croat and a Serb/Croat? Who are the Gypsies, or better said which Gypsies? Who are these refugees? What were they fleeing of? Why did they came to Sarajevo? Why are Albanians seeking refuge in Sarajevo? |
Posted By: Mila
Date Posted: 16-Dec-2005 at 14:57
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The short answer is most of them are neither Croats nor Serbs, but that
doesn't hold up today. If they want to be, they are - no one can deny
another people's right to national self-determination. The differences between Bosnian Croats and Croatians has lessened since the war because of introduced changes in linguistics, cultural practices, and so on. Stereotypically speaking, Bosnian Croats would be like Mexicans in the United States - twice as Croatian simply to maintain their culture in a different nation. They're thought to be more provincial, more rural in lifestyle, less educated, less refined, and so on. These stereotypes were even stronger before Bosnian Croats started enforcing the Croatian accent. If Serbian, Bosnian, and Croatian were variations of English - Serbian would be Australian, Croatian would be proper British, and Bosnian would be African-American slang. The differences between Bosnian Serbs and Serbs are largely the same. Catholics and Orthodox Christians in Bosnia and Herzegovina were overwhelmingly rural, while Bosniaks were well more than half urban. You have "hick" stereotypes then against Bosnian Croats and Bosnian Serbs that have nothing to do with nationality but more to do with lifestyle. Those 30-something per cent of Bosniaks who lived in villages are viewed in the same ways as well. Again, since the war changes have been made to introduce proper Serbian - which is a more drastic change than Croatian because Bosnian Serbs spoke with the western dialect, as opposed to the eastern on dominant in Serbia and Montenegro. The Gypsies are Roma settlers who have been here for centuries. They are predominantly Muslim - but like Bosniak highlanders, there is so much influence from other belief systems than even Bosniaks in Sarajevo would say it's too deviated to be considered Islam. The Bosniak, Bosnian Croat, and Bosnian Serb refugees who have fled to Sarajevo (and this is very important, each city attracted different sorts of refugees for different reasons) are an interesting mix. Bosniak refugees from across the country came simply because Sarajevo is the capital and a safe place for Bosniaks to seek refuge. Bosnian Croats who came to Sarajevo largely came from the surrounding villages in the immediate vicinity. We also have many from Banja Luka. Most of these Bosnian Croat refugees seem to consider Sarajevo a temporary stop on their way to Banja Luka, Prijedor, or other cities where Bosnian Croats were driven away. Bosnian Serbs who chose Sarajevo are largely Yugoslavia-minded, left-wing idealists who never supported the war and are horrified at the possibility of living anywhere near the Republika Srpska. They have a Civic Union here which caters to the community, and they're constantly in conflict with Serbia proper. For example, the Serbian Orthodox Church has announced plans to close all churches outside the Republika Srpska because Serbs in Sarajevo banned political sermons. Kosovo Albanians fled Kosovo and poured into every country around the border. Many thousands crossed through the Sandzak and into Bosnia and Herzegovina. ------------- |
Posted By: Cezar
Date Posted: 16-Dec-2005 at 16:46
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Only for Mila. First of all, Thank you very much for answering my questions. As for the answers, I can only state this: seems like nobody knows what is the best thing to declare regarding ethnicity. I'm sorry if that would offend you but to me there are no differences between Bosnian muslims/catholic christians/orthodox chritians/ serbs/ croats/ bosniaks / albanians, gypsies (or Roma, if you like). They seem to me like just some people who do not agree if there is something like light grey or dark grey. I'm not where you are, I've never been there, so what I think may be wrong. I hope I never would have to face the horrors you/yours have dealed with! I only think that for a matter so close to my country I'm not entitled to say something. As for the topic , I stick to what I stated about the punishment. |
Posted By: Mila
Date Posted: 16-Dec-2005 at 17:10
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I just find that point of view so strange. Even if we spoke exactly the
same language and were all the same faith, our histories are more
different than most European neighbors. The Roman, Ottoman, and
Byzantine Empires were more different than France and Germany ever were. We have only nominally more in common with each other than we do with all Slavs everywhere. Croatians and Slovenians are more like Germans than they are like Bosnians. Bosnians are more like Greeks and Turks than like Serbs. Serbs are more like Russians than they are like Macedonians. It's just something people from outside put on us. We're more than different enough to be considered separate nations. Likewise, we have enough in common that we should be the closest of national friends. ------------- |
Posted By: ill_teknique
Date Posted: 17-Dec-2005 at 01:41
so true. its just its kinda hard for people not familiar with it to understand that. its amazing to some when you tell them you can differntiate between a bosnian a croat and a serb. but to most from bivsa jugoslavija thats not.lol. ------------- |
Posted By: ill_teknique
Date Posted: 17-Dec-2005 at 01:47
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My mom was in Velika Kladusa two years ago she says changed a lot but
still same crappy tensions. I havent been since like 97/98. so
close to 8 years.
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Posted By: Jay.
Date Posted: 20-Dec-2005 at 15:27
| What the hell?! 20 years, and that's it? That's insane. He should be sent to the front of the line for execution. |
Posted By: BMC21113
Date Posted: 20-Dec-2005 at 16:08
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Here in the United States, we have a serious problem with light sentencing for rapists and child molestors. Personally, I feel as though rape is just as bad as murder. These people are extremely sick, and rehabilitation is extremely ineffective. Twenty years is not a just punishment for the lives that he has ruined. Rapists and child molestors are the most dispicable products of human society and deserve absolutely no sympathy. They could all receive life in prison or execution, makes no difference to me. Life in prison might be worse than death, as rapists and/or child predators do not rank very well on the prison hierarchy. They usually get what they deserve either way, and for very good reason. ------------- "To be prepared for war is one of the most effective means of preserving peace"-George Washington "The art of war is, in the last result, the art of keeping one's freedom of action."-Xenophon |
Posted By: BMC21113
Date Posted: 20-Dec-2005 at 16:25
------------- "To be prepared for war is one of the most effective means of preserving peace"-George Washington "The art of war is, in the last result, the art of keeping one's freedom of action."-Xenophon |