Mengtzu, if you're unsure about anything you've said or I've said just make an effort to check what's more correct. If some chinese person loves or hates CK that's his/her problem. What's unacceptable is that PRC national government is endorsing the idea that CK is chinese national hero. Imagine americans starting to claim that Napoleon was american national (not super) hero. I'm sure many americans love/hate Napoleon/Superman, but when it becomes a national issue it's pure politics.

PRC recognized only a part of Mongolia and mongols to be independent. Now suddenly inner mongolians are not mongol or what? They're pure pure chinese just like manchus?

And of course it's speculation, would've been fine if they just left it there. But they had to build some ugly pavillion, they had to put some woolen sock in it and claim it belonged to CK. They even got out of somewhere some "darkhad tribe" supposedly looking after the place, when the real darkhads live near lake Hubsugul. Why don't you just speculate some more and put some toe bones inside the sock and claim you found them together? That would complete the whole charade.

Hey all,

    Sorry if I'm beating a dead horse.  I wasn't a part of the discussion when it was heated, so allow me to put in my two cents now, albeit a little too late.

    If Jesus (a Semite, a Jew, a Middle Easterner) can be celebrated by Europe (in fact, he has got to be the most celebrated individual of the world in all of known history,) I don't see why Genghis can't be celebrated by the Chinese.  As long as the Chinese don't claim that Genghis is exclusively Chinese, what's wrong with that?  The Mongolians should be proud of the fact that a hero of their own is celebrated by someone else.

    Sesame street logic: if we don't have enough, we share.  Well, we have enough, but more the merrier for everyone.

Peace,

Michael

9-29-2004

Hey Tobodai,

    The difference between Jesus and Genghis in what you suggested doesn't make one less capable of cross-cultural celebration than the other.  By the way, Jesus might not have personally caused problems in Europe and elsewhere, but his followers, well, I don't think I have to elaborate.

Peace,

Michael

9-29-2004

Hey Gubuk,

    It's like saying whether Ki Ja (regardless if he's real; it's his cultural significance that matters) should be a national hero for Chinese or Korea.  I know there are ways to say either and ways to justify either, but upon what do we draw the line?  It's hard to tell how many Chinese have Mongolian lineage, so can they celebrate Genghis?  This comes back again to the impossibility of defining "nation."  I'm against PRC trying to change history and being a bully, but I can't blame the Chinese if they clearly recognize Genghis as Mongolian, but due to his impact on Chinese society, honor him as a part of their history.  If they are not distorting historical facts, how can we blame them?  If they are not claiming exclusivity, what's wrong with that?  I remember an Orthodox Jew said that the Christians practically commited theft by making the Tanakh (the Old Testament of Christians) their own Scriptures, but that's just excessive criticism.  As long as they credit the Israelites for their part in the Christian heritage, we can't oblige them to follow some kind of imagined copyrights.  In the same way Chinese cannot say that Koreans cannot claim Han scripts and Confucianism as their own, as long as they acknowledge where they come from.

Peace,

Michael

9-29-2004

Chinese as a nation is one thing and mongolians as a nation is another. I got no problem chinese people personally respecting CK, but turning him into an officially celebrated chinese national hero is unacceptable. It's a bad joke.

That would imply that chinese and mongolians are in fact one nation, a point that PRC seems to be trying to make. This is wrong and is pure chauvinistic propaganda. History has nothing to do with this.

Hey Chono,

    I beg to differ.  I'm no friend of Chinese expansionism, and I'm sympathetic with those who want to have independence from it.  But I resist the urge of tying every cultural claim of China back to this issue.  If Koreans claim that Confucianism is a part of their national heritage -- insofar as it has been made "their own," -- what's wrong with that?  Buddhism and Christianity are the common national -- yes, national -- heritage of various countries.  Some countries in older times were really called "Christian nations."  If religions and ideologies can be shared in such a way, why not cultural heroes.  As long as the Chinese 1) don't claim exclusive right to celebrate CK, 2) don't claim that CK shows that Mongolia and China are one nation, 3) credit Mongolia as being where CK is from, then what is wrong with that?

Peace,

Michael

8-30-2004

Confucianism is not our national heritage... we don't want shameful sexist classcist philsophies to be labled as "ours"! China can take its' shame back! (j/k lol)  

In my opinion Christians should only refer to Old Testament to understand the new. It is a shameful book encouraging narrow-mindedness, cruelty, racism and even fascism. I condemn great parts of it.

Note that although Europe called itself Christian it never claimed that Christ was a "European hero". Also note that the term "Christian" was never really limited to those of Europe, as they knew about the existance of Ethiopean Christians.

The wording "Chinese hero" makes Genghis Khan sound like a hero who is Chinese, or who is exclusively worshiped by the Chinese. If it is called Hero of the Chinese then it is more acceptable.

But anyway, I hate Genghis Khan - he is a mass-murderer and is no more of a hero than Attila the Hun and Timur the Lame,

Those who say CK was mass murderer should go and read "CK and the making of modern world" a new book written by some american. If he were a mass murderer half of Asia wouldn't be worshipping him right? Don't try to sparkle here with your brainwashedness.

Meng-tzu, there's nothing cultural about CK's heritage in China, in fact there's no heritage at all from him in China. All the claims are politically motivated. PRC's trying to digest inner Mongolia, it's one of the strategies of doing that.

1. They claim exclusive right to celebrate CK as a chinese national hero. 2. They very well DO claim that mongols are in fact chinese. Ever heard of five fingers of one hand and other shining examples chinese chauvinism? 3. They credit Ordos being where he was buried, so he was a chinese national hero, he's buried in PRC, so where should his birthplace be according to their logic? We mongols have been dealing with chinese for quite a long time and can smell bad deals from a mile, figuratively speaking

Kinda sucks that with so many old ideologies having sexist elements, Confucianism is always singled out.  oh booo.  My point is that there are Koreans who consider Confucianism a part of their heritage.  (If this example doesn't work for you, try dragon boat.  Different example, same argument.)

That's really irrelevant, you know.

You're missing the point at issue.  Regardless whether the object is a person, a concept, a religion, etc, the point here is: can we claim something of another nation as our own national heritage?

There you go.  A little of semantics can surprisingly make a lot of people happy or mad.  Honestly, insistence of such distinction is so petty -- a sign that we East Asians have gone down that path of "identity vacuum" much too long.

Okay, but once again irrelevant =)

This is so untrue that I cannot even begin to tell you how untrue it is.  What makes something a cultural icon can have absolutely nothing to do with historical facts.  Superman is a cultural icon, but he doesn't exist.  Spiderman didn't kill Green Goblin, but every American fan is sure that he did.  You see my point?  For someone or something to be celebrated by a culture or a nation doesn't mean that someone or something has to have factually been linked to that culture or nation.  All that said CK did play a part in Chinese as well as many other national history -- may be calling him a national nemesis would satisfy you?  Come on, you know how petty your arguments are?

1. They claim exclusive right to celebrate CK as a chinese national hero. 2. They very well DO claim that mongols are in fact chinese. Ever heard of five fingers of one hand and other shining examples chinese chauvinism? 3. They credit Ordos being where he was buried, so he was a chinese national hero, he's buried in PRC, so where should his birthplace be according to their logic? We mongols have been dealing with chinese for quite a long time and can smell bad deals from a mile, figuratively speaking

Well, I don't think I have introduced myself.  I'm not a mainlander.  I fled the Commie government before 1997 takeover of HK.  I'm a Chinese American, loyal citizen of the USA.  You're complaining to the wrong guy about these things.  What I meant was that there are conditions (I listed 3) that would make sharing national heroes an acceptable thing.  If what you said about Mainland is true (which I'm not gonna take for granted.  I've realized that love or hatred for mainland spawns grossly inaccurate accessments,) then no, what they do doesn't satisfy the conditions I've stated, and so just one more reason for me to be glad that I'm not nationalistic.  I know I'm sounding like an arrogant b*tch, but I do pity nationalistic people.

" They very well DO claim that mongols are in fact chinese. Ever heard of five fingers of one hand and other shining examples chinese chauvinism? "

Sorry but its again of pure ignorance, China very well recognized the independence of Mongolia more than half a century ago, and its not claiming anything of the sort.

" They credit Ordos being where he was buried, so he was a chinese national hero, he's buried in PRC, so where should his birthplace be according to their logic? We mongols have been dealing with chinese for quite a long time and can smell bad deals from a mile, figuratively speaking "

Sorry, but the correct word is speculate. All things about ordos are just done from historical research and analysis, and they never claimed with certainty that Ck is in fact buried there.

"PRC recognized only a part of Mongolia and mongols to be independent. Now suddenly inner mongolians are not mongol or what? They're pure pure chinese just like manchus?"

Neverthless, it still mean that they did not use the exclusive right for claiming genghis. Inner mongolians are still mongols, its their ethnicity, they are mongol chinese, that is except for those that don't like to be called such.

Hey Gubuk,

    I actually beg to differ.  I doubt any such line can be drawn on any debate forum.  Nationalism is a religion.  There is no compromise.  For a nationalist, his nation is sacred.  The only solution is for them to become less nationalistic.

Peace,

Michael

10-4-2004

You can claim something as your national heritige, unless you intend to monopolize it. If China is calling the Khan their hero without forgetting the fact that he is indeed a Mongol, and dosn't use it to colonize Mongolia it is approperiate.

(Although I would snicker at those who worship the one who murdered ten thousands of their countrymen.)

I have never thought of Confucianism as a "national heritige".  I am a Christian and I would laugh in the face of anyone who claims Christianity as a "national heritige".

What do you mean by dragon boat? Turtle Ship?

"Petty" semnatics are not an East Asian thing at all... if I had lived in Korea instad of Canada I wouldn't care for such things. Its the Westerners who always want to be so exact with words.

that's a wrong approach, it's like viewing Eisenhower just as a general and not as a president. and in fact a lot of stuff about Chinggis Qaan was made up by contemporary historians and western historians that didn't even knew the difference betwen Attila, Chinggis and Timur-i Lenk. in fact, recent research has shown that Charlemagne was in fact more of a barbarian mass-murder than most of the three beforementioned men because the Clerical elite of Europe washed his shirt white after he accepted to become Empeor of the HRE by the hands of the pope and didn't mentionen much of the genocides comitted on Saxons and especially Avars, yet today France and Germany donate a Karls-medal to people that did much for a united europe (Clinton got one)....

Churchhill was racist against blacks. Racists cant be heroes, so Churchill is nothing but a petty racist war monger.

Clive, you're a sorry a-s apologetic. It was Kubilai who did all those things not Ck. Yelui Chutsai gave advice to Ogodei not CK. The people who administered the empire during CK's times were Shihi Hutag, Hui mergen, Chinga Chingsan, Tatatunga etc. Yelui Chutsai was just called in because he was a kidanian and stuff about northern China. Later of course he rose to prominence, but then got imprisoned and killed.

I don't believe you have any idea what mongols and chinese look like. You'll probably have difficulty telling the difference between a kazakh and a filipino. Í bet you couldn't tell where all the participants came from until they announced it. Stop trying to glue yourself to us, it's pathetic.

And they did map China genetically and it turned out chinese are 99% chinese. The result is surprising even to me, looks like centuries of nomadic incursions left but a tiny trace. You can see the map here on this forum.

"So what? He didn't kill because of ethnicity, creed, religion, he killed only those that opposed him. Mass killings, yes, but on his terms they 'deserved it'. Those slaughtered cities had the chance to surrender. Maybe not all of them, but from what I know, most. "

Whats the difference between killing those that are in your way because they don't want to be enslaved vs. those that are killed because of an ideal, in Hitler's eyes the Jews deserve to die too. Imperial Japanese slaughtered many people
also because they are just in their way, and they also offered surrender to many cities and chinese prefects.

"You are judging him by modern standards. "

Even by standard of his time, it was brutal, Jin and Song armies never decide to exterminate a whole kingdom like he did. There certain things that are not affected by time. just because there is no law, does it make murdering a right thing to do?

I pretty much agree with this. In order to learn from history, you have to look at the mistakes made in the past. So judging mass-murderers from the past by the moral standards of today is fine. It should learn us there should never be anyone like CK again.

of course it's possible to judge ancient people by modern standards, that is if you just want to judge everything.

judging ancients is stupid, it distorts our preception and udnerstandign of history. to study and udnerstand history you have to interprete facts neutral and without illogical feeligns like "he was evil" or anythign like that...only makling statements like "Chinggis was a mass-murderer" may be true by modern standarts but it's of little or none historical relevance.

Oh my, you are so cultivated and sensible are you not. I think I'm too crude to respond adequately to such a sophisticated turn of events. So I'll close my mouth about it and expect you do the same, otherwise, the crudeness will of course go on, I might even call you a piece of bullpie  Apologies to your wife, I hope she'd read some history on her native tongue, that'll heal her of the damage done by communist propaganda.

Judging history makes the whole point of studying it rather useless. It takes away any sort of learning value from it. Otherwise, why are we to learn from inherently evil happenings? What can we learn from something that's been already stamped as evil? The point is already clear and there's no reason to learn from it.

One more question is, what gives us any moral right to judge anyone? We're not even clear about our own morality, which in it's turn is the intellectual product of the very people we're trying to judge. This is rediculous. Studying and understanding the judgements of some contemporary individuals is a wholly different thing, they had the right to do that. We must try to understand why things happened the way they did, and learn from THAT.

"Apologies to your wife, I hope she'd read some history on her native tongue, that'll heal her of the damage done by communist propaganda."

Perhaps she already done so, and chose otherwise. Too bad the virtue which requires to be ever guarded is scarcely worth the sentinel!

"Don't bud in pseudo-manchu, not your business what mongols read. "

Its a history forum and is very well my business to say what I want, and there is nothing that morons like you could do to stop me.

"What's with this unneeded racial tension?  Calm down, all of you..."

Nothing racial on my part, just a loser called chono  who who don't respect what others believe.

"Stop it, all of you! You want another locked thread?! "

Do explain the word "all" because no one here except the moron named chono broke the rule up to that time.

yeah, tell that pseudo pycho mongol what he deserves, not his business to interfere with what Chinese thinks.

----

It's obvious who's the moron here. Starting from the moronic morons who can't handle consequences of their own slander down to lowlife punks like warhead. Blame on yourself that you're a pseudo-manchu. And what ethnic tensions are you talking about? It's all about communist propaganda and desinformation. Ihsan, please delete this thread all ready, it's filled with garbage.

And no, I didn't create it, it was Meng-tzu.