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How do Muslims view the Bahai Faith

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Topic: How do Muslims view the Bahai Faith
Posted By: Arpad
Subject: How do Muslims view the Bahai Faith
Date Posted: 10-Nov-2005 at 09:01

Hi im wondering what the fellow Muslims knew and viewed about the Baha'i faith. I know hardcore Islamic people in Iran hate us and denounce us but am wondering how it is around the other Islamic cultures and countries.

We don't drink alcohol, no sex before marriage, pray to God, believe in 1 God, believe in all past religions of God (ie., Judaism, Christianity, Islam )we have obligatory prayers etc.

We are not an Islamic sect for those who don't know about the Baha'i Faith, the religion is an independant one and started 150 years ago in Persia, we have >6 million followers world-wide. We believe also in the Oness of God, Equality of Men and Women, Oness of humanity, abolition of racsim, predjudice, Oness of Religion, we have no Clerics like (priest, Imam etc) we believe in Independant investigation of the truth, to name a few.

Any way tell me how your views are, don't feel shy to post your OWN opinions. Thanks

Arpad.



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Replies:
Posted By: Komnenos
Date Posted: 10-Nov-2005 at 09:05
I'm not a Muslim and therefore not asked for an opinion.

But in any case, could you give us a bit more info on the Baha'i faith, about it's origin's and history, about it's influences and it's organisation.
Thanks!

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[IMG]http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i137/komnenos/crosses1.jpg">


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 10-Nov-2005 at 09:30

to answer... komnenos question look at this webpage:

http://www.bahai.org/ - http://www.bahai.org/

got QnA section u can look for some basic answer.. which i am too looking at it now....

 



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Posted By: Arpad
Date Posted: 10-Nov-2005 at 09:56
thanks for that Cahaya.

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Posted By: Afghanan
Date Posted: 10-Nov-2005 at 20:44
Originally posted by Arpad

Hi im wondering what the fellow Muslims knew and viewed about the Baha'i faith. I know hardcore Islamic people in Iran hate us and denounce us but am wondering how it is around the other Islamic cultures and countries.

We don't drink alcohol, no sex before marriage, pray to God, believe in 1 God, believe in all past religions of God (ie., Judaism, Christianity, Islam )we have obligatory prayers etc.

We are not an Islamic sect for those who don't know about the Baha'i Faith, the religion is an independant one and started 150 years ago in Persia, we have >6 million followers world-wide. We believe also in the Oness of God, Equality of Men and Women, Oness of humanity, abolition of racsim, predjudice, Oness of Religion, we have no Clerics like (priest, Imam etc) we believe in Independant investigation of the truth, to name a few.

Any way tell me how your views are, don't feel shy to post your OWN opinions. Thanks

Arpad.

 

I have a few Iranian Bahai friends and find them very friendly and outgoing.  All of them do drink alcohol, eat pork, and are relatively the same nature and quality as average Americans. 

I did know that faithful Bahais do not drink Alcohol?  I find that very interesting. 

 I also know an American converto to Bahai faith, she keeps a little pamphlet she gives to anybody who is interested in joining the movement.  I personally think Bahaism is not for me, because my culture, and the way I lived my life would fall contradictory to Bahai teachings.  In Islam, we do not believe in anymore prophets after Muhammad, and we dont believe that Bahullah was the Mehdi either.

I find that the majority of Muslims I knowm even Iranians (who are Muslim), consider Bahaism as a cult, and a religion created by the British and associated with Freemasonry.

I dont find much validity in that because I am ignorant on the teachings of Bahaullah and will not believe anything  until I read it & research it for myself.

From what I have heard about it though, I think one day Bahaism will become a world religion because of its entirely tolerant and lax nature.  It offers a guilt free answer, believe in One God, but also keeps the door open to answers found in other world religions, and lets the person decide his own leanings.  Its very appealing, especially in the United States and Europe where secularism wil fall hand in hand with Bahai teachings.

 



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The perceptive man is he who knows about himself, for in self-knowledge and insight lays knowledge of the holiest.
~ Khushal Khan Khattak


Posted By: PrznKonectoid
Date Posted: 10-Nov-2005 at 23:03
Well what did you expect, most Muslims treat Bahai with contempt and intolerance.

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Posted By: ok ge
Date Posted: 11-Nov-2005 at 03:12

Originally posted by PrznKonectoid

Well what did you expect, most Muslims treat Bahai with contempt and intolerance.

Arpad asked for your opinion on Bahaism and not what do you think others think of Bahaii faith. So mind your own business please as no one so far in this thread criticized Bahaism.

Regarding me, I think Bahaism is a cult like many other cults in Christianity and other religions. I just find it odd that they believe in Islam, where a vital and critical element in Islam is to believe that prophet Muhammed is the last messenger, thus closing the door for any doubts and that explains too why in Islam we don't have saints and godly-spirited individuals. I am reading the link provided by Cahaya regarding Bahaism and I'm sure I can find some answers of my earlier questions.



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D.J. Kaufman
Wisdom is the reward for a lifetime of listening ... when youd have preferred to talk.


Posted By: Arpad
Date Posted: 11-Nov-2005 at 04:58

Yes Cok Gec we believe in Islam and other religions.

Yes Bahai law states alcohol consumption is prohibited.

We do not observe Hijab and Halal food. We are allowed to eat pork etc. Some iranian Bahai's DO however observe halal and do not eat pork but thats just out of habit.

In Islam and the Quran isn't it (correct me if im worng) that after Muhammad no more Prophets like - Noah, Elijah etc prophets who do not bring a holy book and laws etc., but promote religion and religious activity won't come anymore. I forgot the name as referred to in the Quran maybe some of the Muslims here can remember the name given to these prophets.

We also have a holy book which its name is The Kitab'i Aqdas.



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Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 11-Nov-2005 at 05:32

Excuse me Arpad...

Just wnt to know... well..me too here feel odd.. actually very odd.. (pls.. no hard feeling here) as earlier mentioned by cok gec : I just find it odd that they believe in Islam, where a vital and critical element in Islam is to believe that prophet Muhammed is the last messenger, thus closing the door for any doubts and that explains too why in Islam we don't have saints and godly-spirited individuals...

So far my understanding... Bahaism believes in One God... here I quote some of the stmn frm the website:-

God is the ultimate Reality, Creator of the universe, Whose nature is unknowable and inaccessible to humankind. Such designations as God, Allah, Yahweh, Brahma all refer to the One Divine Being. We learn about God through His Messengers, Who teach and guide humanity

no offend here but are u guy just wnt to put urself in safe position.. to claimed u do believe wht Muslim and other religions followers do have in their faith? if u already believe in this... why must still need to have Bahai?



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Posted By: Miller
Date Posted: 11-Nov-2005 at 05:41
 

The view of what is suppose to come after Muhammad depends on which sect of Islam you look at.


As for Bahais, Some Muslims view Bahai faith as a cult the same way that some Jews and Christians view Islam as cult. The difference is that Judaism and Christianity are prevalent in countries where there is more tolerance at the present time relative to Islamic states.

 



Posted By: ok ge
Date Posted: 11-Nov-2005 at 06:51

Originally posted by Arpad

In Islam and the Quran isn't it (correct me if im worng) that after Muhammad no more Prophets like - Noah, Elijah etc prophets who do not bring a holy book and laws etc., but promote religion and religious activity won't come anymore. I forgot the name as referred to in the Quran maybe some of the Muslims here can remember the name given to these prophets.

Well, if I understood you correctly, maybe you are saying that Quran states there is no Prophets after Muhammed but there are messengers?

In any case, the Quran states the following verse:

Muhammad is not the father of any of your men, but (he is) the Messenger of Allah, and the Seal of the Prophets: and Allah has full knowledge of all things.
(The Holy Quran, Al-Ahzab 33:40)

The Quran defines what is a prophet and what is a messenger. A prophet is a messenger who is ordered by God to carry a revelation and new scripture and laws. A messenger is just a person sent by god to confirm previous existing messenger. All prophets are messengers, but not all messengers are prophet.

Therefore, under Islam doctrine, it is clear that no new revelaton will come (new prophet) after prophet Muhammed (PBUH).  So that explains why Muslims don't accept new claims of new revelations such as the Bahaii scripture.

Bahaiis and Shia Muslim differ on the Mahdi's name and a lot of similarities exists there. So, it is clear that Bahaism is closer to Shia Islam than Sunni Islam and that is definitley true especially the nature of the Bahaii's faith founder.



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D.J. Kaufman
Wisdom is the reward for a lifetime of listening ... when youd have preferred to talk.


Posted By: oTToMAn_TurK
Date Posted: 11-Nov-2005 at 08:17

my opinion personnally (as far as i no) the Bahai religion is not much different then Islam.

Islam is the completion of the other two one god religions (jews, christns), and the koran respects the other religions by calling them the people of the book. now if the bahai faith beleives that all of these religions should unite and serve the one perpuse of believing in the ONE God then i would respect them. coz as muslims we also hav a higher respect for the people of the book then the ones who reject faith (as in belief wise, other wise ofcourse i respect them as equal humans).

question for arpad,

personally and religiously, wich one of the three religions do you respect more? u obviously read all the books of god, but as the last book of God, the Koran, do use believe and read about that more or is it more equal.

and also what u think about the prophits moses, jesus, mohammed? how do u view them?



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Either your a slave to what MADE-MAN
Or your a slave to what MAN-MADE


Posted By: Arpad
Date Posted: 11-Nov-2005 at 08:58

Thankyou for you replies.

Our belief in Islam is the same as Islams belief in Christianity.

In the Bahai Faith we believe in the Abrahamic cycle, the cycle begun by Abraham, and it was ended with Muhammad, thus he is the seal of the Abrahamic cycle and the last of those prophets. However we believe our Messanger is the begining of a new cycle, Muhammad closed the seal, however our Messanger opened a new one. I must reiterate this is my understanding,,

We DO NOT follow the laws of other religions, by stating we believe in them does not mean we follow them, We have our own Holy book, our own set of laws that we abide by.

Tell me this aswell, if one is Muslim by name, but does not follow his laws, drinks, eats pork etc., how is his state once his physical bocy passes by, and he enters the realm of the spirit? will he go to a 'heaven' as opposed to someone who has no religion, however lives life serving humanity, the betterment of people and generally a very good person of good morales?

Ottoman, In terms of respect we respect all the books and teachings because they are all the same, we believe, the word of God is always the same and can never change.

The physical message might have changed a bit over time, but this was to go with the people of the time, what do you thnk would have happened if Muhammad's teachings was brought upon the people at the time of Moses? They would never be able to comprehend the teachings because they are forward a few thousand years thats why they never blieve in Muhammad, because they cannot compare their teaching and those of Muhammad, it is very different in the eyes of man, however the essence. the spirit of the message is the same as has always been, to know Thee, to Worship him, and acknowledge him. however the laws change slightly as man has always been evolving, you cannot impose laws set for adults on babies, or youngsters can you? they could never comprehend it, also you cannot use the laws from babies and children on adults it would never work. Humans have been evolving from baby, to child to teenager throughout its history, which is the EXACT reason God sends down prophets, to keep humans up to date, so that they don't forget him, so that they do not go out of hand. Do you think humans 1000 years ago would ever imaging what the future would be? it is incomprahendable, they would never imagine whats going on know. thats why it is hard for christians / jews to accept Islam or for Jews to accept Christianity.

I believe in the Validity of the Bible/ Quran because they are the words of God put down for their time. In terms of prophets Muhammad, Christ and Moses i view them as equal (please dont be offended) however view the message of Muhammad as the most valid as Muhammad was the last Prophet befor my own prophet so naturally after my own beliefs i view those of Islam as the most Valid. However as equal with the teaching of Christ and Moses.

And Cahaya i respect your view, and if you think im trying to feel safe, well i respect that to, but know this, i do not feel safe by following a book, or books from God.  I will fear God always, i will especially fear him if i was non-religious and not knowing of him. I have my own religions law and book that i follow, i dot not USE anyother religion but my own regardles of what you think, i have tried to explain that we believe in the validity of the past religions, but if you do not accept that then lets agree to disagree and i 100% recpet your views and respect your religious view.



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Posted By: Jhangora
Date Posted: 11-Nov-2005 at 10:17

I do not fear God {if he exists}.Fear=hatred.I love/would love God {if he exists}.

My personal opinion.



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Jai Badri Vishal


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 11-Nov-2005 at 10:34

As Arpad Stated:

And Cahaya i respect your view, and if you think im trying to feel safe, well i respect that to, but know this, i do not feel safe by following a book, or books from God.  I will fear God always, i will especially fear him if i was non-religious and not knowing of him. I have my own religions law and book that i follow, i dot not USE anyother religion but my own regardles of what you think, i have tried to explain that we believe in the validity of the past religions, but if you do not accept that then lets agree to disagree and i 100% recpet your views and respect your religious view.

Well..I do respect others beliefs and faiths..(especially when lives in a country which consists of multi ethnics and religions)  it's individual choice.. dont get me wrong with my questions previously.. is not i'm criticized ur religion.. i'm curious... this is my first time i heard about it...



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Posted By: oTToMAn_TurK
Date Posted: 11-Nov-2005 at 20:15
Originally posted by katulakatula

I do not fear God {if he exists}.Fear=hatred.I love/would love God {if he exists}.

My personal opinion.

fear does not equal hatred, not always anyway. a person that fears God and his punishments would be mor cautious towards his own actions then someone that doesnt fear God.

imagine you are under captivity. would u rather be dealt with someone that fears God and his punishments or someone that doesnt fear God and doesnt beleive. a man that doesnt fear God could do anything to torture you while the person who knows his being wached and knows that he will be judged at the after life would no his limits when dealing with captives or prisoners.

anyway lets stick to the topic



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Either your a slave to what MADE-MAN
Or your a slave to what MAN-MADE


Posted By: oTToMAn_TurK
Date Posted: 11-Nov-2005 at 20:27
Originally posted by Arpad

Tell me this aswell, if one is Muslim by name, but does not follow his laws, drinks, eats pork etc., how is his state once his physical bocy passes by, and he enters the realm of the spirit? will he go to a 'heaven' as opposed to someone who has no religion, however lives life serving humanity, the betterment of people and generally a very good person of good morales?

well in the koran it says that onli those with faith (iman) shall enter paradise so obviously u wud think taht if someone is muslim by name but doesnt practiseor believe then cannot be seen as a mumin in the eyes of God, even tho he might be seen as a muslim in the eyes of man. while ur comparison to the non-religious man would depend on wether he rejects faith fully. if he believes that there is an all-wise, all-knowing creator out there but didnt know about his religion (islam) or wasnt introduced to it properly and was mislead, misinformed by other corrupted muslim, then he may also be allowed to enter paradise.

but if he rejects faith totally and openly denies Gods existence despite all the miracliuos proof of the universe being controlled, then he may not be allowed to, despite what he has done.

ofcourse, God knows best.



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Either your a slave to what MADE-MAN
Or your a slave to what MAN-MADE


Posted By: Arpad
Date Posted: 11-Nov-2005 at 21:13

Katulakatula you have been watching too much Star wars heheh fear = hatred.

If you fear no one in the world, then its up to you, i myself also don't have fear for many things except God. The fear that were referring to is not fear as in you are scared of a spider no. The fear is coming from within you, more like you know the sun is there, but you also fear it because without the sun there would be no life, your fear is respect and love, you love the sun for bringing life, you respect the sun, you know about the sun, but also at any time it can take life. That is the fear im talking about, fear of something so great it is uncomprahendable for us.

Thankyou for that Ottoman, and cahaya thankyou for your reply.



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Posted By: azimuth
Date Posted: 12-Nov-2005 at 00:53

why your holy book has an arabic name?

 



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Posted By: Maju
Date Posted: 12-Nov-2005 at 01:14
I know it's of topic but hatred is made up of fear (plus rage, plus psychological/sociological constructs). Yet hate may well not be directed against the feared one(s) precisely because of the fear. Katulakatula is on something.

While fear is a normal emotion, though an unpleasant one, living in fear destroys the soul and self-steem.


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NO GOD, NO MASTER!


Posted By: ok ge
Date Posted: 12-Nov-2005 at 01:22
Well Maju, God is loving and all love, but at the same time, God gets angry. I love my father, but it doesn't mean I don't fear his anger and sometimes his punishment for my bad deeds. This is a very typical human nature and it is automatically proven since you are child too. Your parents excercise giving you love but warning you of their anger and punishment too.

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D.J. Kaufman
Wisdom is the reward for a lifetime of listening ... when youd have preferred to talk.


Posted By: Maju
Date Posted: 12-Nov-2005 at 02:10
I've never thought that a divinity would experience emotions as we do but, anyhow, these are his emotions: it is he who should learn to manage them. All I can do is to listen friendly and maybe consolate him but I can't take up the guilt for his emotionality. My father never achieved anything by means of being agressive or punitive, but he achieved a lot by means of being possitive and cooperative.


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NO GOD, NO MASTER!


Posted By: Arpad
Date Posted: 12-Nov-2005 at 02:47
I think the meaning of our Holy book is the same in Farsi.

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Posted By: azimuth
Date Posted: 12-Nov-2005 at 06:25

yea its Arabic so  is the name of Bahai founder.

so from my short reading this religion had an islamic background. and both "bab" and "bahaullah" are Arabic names.

 



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Posted By: Arpad
Date Posted: 12-Nov-2005 at 07:33

Yes they are, and yes we have Islamic background because both our founders the Bab and Baha'u'llah were from Islamic background.

However let there be no confusion we are Bahai's following Baha'u'llah the Bab was the forerunner of our faith, he came and teold the people of the coming of a great one (Baha'u'llah) and basically got them ready for the coming of the new messanger.

We believe that after all messangers a period of light shines down on the world, After Muhammad, sciences, maths al theses exelled, the world became a new place, Europe gradually went out of the dark ages, Many poets made some of the greatest literature in the world, Advances in Human anatomy, health etc were made . thus a period of light.

We believe the period of light after our messanger is clear, 150 years ago in 1844 noone dreamed of flying through continents, in the oldern ways the way to spread message would be to travel etc., however now we have so much progressed, we have progressed so much at such a high exponential way since the last 150 years, and i believe this is because the dawn of a new cycle, with the Abrahamic cycle complete, the new cycle is dawned and what we are seeing today is only the start of great great new advances to be made in technology.



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Posted By: azimuth
Date Posted: 12-Nov-2005 at 09:32

 

yea Bab told people that "Al Mahdi" is comming and "Al Mahdi" was described by the Prophet Mohammed, and not considered as a prophet.

 



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Posted By: PrznKonectoid
Date Posted: 13-Nov-2005 at 00:25

Originally posted by Maju

I know it's of topic but hatred is made up of fear (plus rage, plus psychological/sociological constructs). Yet hate may well not be directed against the feared one(s) precisely because of the fear. Katulakatula is on something.

While fear is a normal emotion, though an unpleasant one, living in fear destroys the soul and self-steem.

Its quite simple. Religion uses hate to utilizes hate to galvinize the population to its cause.



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Posted By: PrznKonectoid
Date Posted: 13-Nov-2005 at 00:28
Originally posted by ok ge

Originally posted by PrznKonectoid

Well what did you expect, most Muslims treat Bahai with contempt and intolerance.

Arpad asked for your opinion on Bahaism and not what do you think others think of Bahaii faith. So mind your own business please as no one so far in this thread criticized Bahaism.

Regarding me, I think Bahaism is a cult like many other cults in Christianity and other religions. I just find it odd that they believe in Islam, where a vital and critical element in Islam is to believe that prophet Muhammed is the last messenger, thus closing the door for any doubts and that explains too why in Islam we don't have saints and godly-spirited individuals. I am reading the link provided by Cahaya regarding Bahaism and I'm sure I can find some answers of my earlier questions.

 

Read the topic name please.



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Posted By: ok ge
Date Posted: 13-Nov-2005 at 01:54

Originally posted by PrznKonectoid

Read the topic name please.

Read the instructions and questions asked by the person who created the topic



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D.J. Kaufman
Wisdom is the reward for a lifetime of listening ... when youd have preferred to talk.


Posted By: PrznKonectoid
Date Posted: 13-Nov-2005 at 02:06
Originally posted by ok ge

Read the instructions and questions asked by the person who created the topic

Ok, for sure. Your always 100% correct ok ge, always.

In any circumstance Bahai faith is one which is little understood by most. My views are that Bahai deserves a place in this world with respect. I dont know why it is not considered "people of the book" as I see it they follow the general monothiestic principles of Abrahamic religions.



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Posted By: azimuth
Date Posted: 13-Nov-2005 at 04:48

the Quran specified who are the people of the Book and they are the Jews and the Christance.

nothing in the Quran about Bahai faith nor their books or prophet.

as i said earlier that the founder of Bahai thought of himself as the "Mahdi" which is described by the prophet mohammed.

Muslims are ordered to follow the Mahdi, obviously majority of Muslim dont think that Bahaullah is the Mahdi. i guess his description didnt fit the description the prophet mentioned.

and its clear that Bahai came from Islamic Background which also recognise Judaisim and Christianity.

also its been many occasions through history were some people claimed to Al Mahdi, and got themselvs killed.

starting with Abu Musaylamah who after the prophet's death claimed to be a Prophet himself and was killed by the Army sent by the first Caliph Abu Baker.

also a woman called "Sajah" claimed to be a prophet too and then took it back and became a normal muslim.

 



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Posted By: ok ge
Date Posted: 13-Nov-2005 at 13:03

Originally posted by Maju

I've never thought that a divinity would experience emotions as we do but, anyhow, these are his emotions: it is he who should learn to manage them. All I can do is to listen friendly and maybe consolate him but I can't take up the guilt for his emotionality. My father never achieved anything by means of being agressive or punitive, but he achieved a lot by means of being possitive and cooperative.

And who said emotions are the creation of human being and only the copyright of humen? God feels anger and happiness but in his way. We could have been created us just like Bacteria. In religion theology, our creation came as part of God and he gave us whatever privilage we were given from brain, emotion express...etc

If we have a God who is solid, does not feel love to us, happiness for our good, and anger for our atrocities, I guess then you have a piece of stone there and not God.

"it is he who should learn to manage them", If God has no control over his expressions, he could have just commanded one single command and we all have vanished. Forever. and save him the trouble.

God feels angry as your dad feel angry on you when you do stupid thing. Don't tell me your dad had no emotions and didn't concern about you at all. 



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D.J. Kaufman
Wisdom is the reward for a lifetime of listening ... when youd have preferred to talk.


Posted By: Maziar
Date Posted: 13-Nov-2005 at 15:21

Originally posted by ok ge

Well Maju, God is loving and all love, but at the same time, God gets angry. I love my father, but it doesn't mean I don't fear his anger and sometimes his punishment for my bad deeds. This is a very typical human nature and it is automatically proven since you are child too. Your parents excercise giving you love but warning you of their anger and punishment too.

Anger and punishment aren't an effective method for decent education. Fearing parents will causes many mental problemes in futur.

It's the same thing in relation with God. Why do you need to "fear" a god for being decent?

Originally posted by Maju

I've never thought that a divinity would experience emotions as we do but, anyhow, these are his emotions: it is he who should learn to manage them. All I can do is to listen friendly and maybe consolate him but I can't take up the guilt for his emotionality. My father never achieved anything by means of being agressive or punitive, but he achieved a lot by means of being possitive and cooperative.

 

 

 



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Posted By: Degredado
Date Posted: 13-Nov-2005 at 15:56

Originally posted by Arpad

After Muhammad, sciences, maths al theses exelled, the world became a new place, Europe gradually went out of the dark ages,

I many times wonder if Mohammed had anything to do with it, considering that Persia, Egypt, Syria, etc., were already civilized regions before he was even born. 



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Vou votar nas putas. Estou farto de votar nos filhos delas


Posted By: PrznKonectoid
Date Posted: 13-Nov-2005 at 16:06
Originally posted by Degredado

Originally posted by Arpad

After Muhammad, sciences, maths al theses exelled, the world became a new place, Europe gradually went out of the dark ages,

I many times wonder if Mohammed had anything to do with it, considering that Persia, Egypt, Syria, etc., were already civilized regions before he was even born. 

Indeed, much of this mathematics were already present in Egypt, Persian, Babylon, and India.

The Islamic empire just conglomerated it in their learning centers in Baghdad. At first the attitude was fairly open to philosophy, math, and the fine arts.

But gradually acceptance disappeared and rulers became more and more strict. It was a shame too, just as Europe was increasing their tolerance of the arts and went full force into their renaissance.



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Posted By: ok ge
Date Posted: 13-Nov-2005 at 16:39
Originally posted by Maziar

 Anger and punishment aren't an effective method for decent education. Fearing parents will causes many mental problemes in futur.

It's the same thing in relation with God. Why do you need to "fear" a god for being decent?

Sure. Find me a parent who never ever got angry and never ever punished their kids.

I personally never seen that and punishment does not have to be physical. It is something common sense that we have punishing results for your wrong work. Punishment is a part of the educational system actually, which is from receiving F for your low performance in class, being asked to stay in your room for the night by your parent, cut in your monthly salary by your employee, fines of speeding, all the way to prison and execution. That is realism, however, if you believe in managing human beings with no punishment, i respect your ultra-idealistic belief.



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D.J. Kaufman
Wisdom is the reward for a lifetime of listening ... when youd have preferred to talk.


Posted By: pikeshot1600
Date Posted: 13-Nov-2005 at 17:01
Originally posted by Arpad

Hi im wondering what the fellow Muslims knew and viewed about the Baha'i faith. I know hardcore Islamic people in Iran hate us and denounce us but am wondering how it is around the other Islamic cultures and countries.

We don't drink alcohol, no sex before marriage, pray to God, believe in 1 God, believe in all past religions of God (ie., Judaism, Christianity, Islam )we have obligatory prayers etc.

We are not an Islamic sect for those who don't know about the Baha'i Faith, the religion is an independant one and started 150 years ago in Persia, we have >6 million followers world-wide. We believe also in the Oness of God, Equality of Men and Women, Oness of humanity, abolition of racsim, predjudice, Oness of Religion, we have no Clerics like (priest, Imam etc) we believe in Independant investigation of the truth, to name a few.

Any way tell me how your views are, don't feel shy to post your OWN opinions. Thanks

Arpad.

In the West, it appears to many that "hardcore Islamic people" hate everyone and everything not "Islamic."  Which is why Islam has such a bad press in the West.  It often appears not as a religion, but as an ideology that glorifies not dying for the faith, but killing for it.

Some interesting comments in this thread. 

 

 



Posted By: PrznKonectoid
Date Posted: 13-Nov-2005 at 18:26
Originally posted by Maziar

 Anger and punishment aren't an effective method for decent education. Fearing parents will causes many mental problemes in futur.

It's the same thing in relation with God. Why do you need to "fear" a god for being decent?

Yes Maziar, respect is the ultimate method of control. If I am beaten I may fear you, but when you turn ur back I wont hesitate to stab you.

True that punishment is needed in a society but only to let people see what they have done wrong, not to for the enjoyment of punishing them.

But I dont think Maziar was talking about Killers and Rapists.

Also a God who loves killing and punishment, as in the old testament is detrimental to a society. 



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Posted By: Arpad
Date Posted: 13-Nov-2005 at 20:45
In the 1830's in Persia, Siyyid Kzim of Rasht was the leader of the Shaykhis, a sect of Shiite Islam. The Shayhkis were expecting the eminent appearance of the Q'im of the House of Muhammad, also called the Mahdi.

At Siyyid Kzim's death in 1843, he had counselled his followers to leave their homes to seek the Lord of the Age whose advent would soon break on the world. One of these followers called Mull Husayn travelled to Shiraz.

On his arrival on May 23, 1844, Mull Husayn was approached by a young man wearing a green turban (an indication that the wearer was a descendent of the Prophet Muhammad). The stranger, the Bb, invited Mull Husayn to his home. After being asked by the Bb of what he was doing in Shiraz, Mulla Husayn replied that he was searching for the Promised One. The Bb then asked how would the Promised One be recognized, to which Mulla Husayn replied "He is of a pure lineage, is of illustrious descent, is endowed with innate knowledge and is free from bodily deficiency". To the shock of Mulla Husayn, the Bb declared "Behold, all these signs are manifest in me.".

Mull Husayn had one more sign by which to identify the Promised One. He had been told by Siyyid Kzim that the Promised One would write a commentary on the Surah of Joseph (a chapter in the Qur'an) without being asked. The Bb fulfilled this requirement as well, writing the commentary after making his declaration. The Bb then declared O Thou who art the first to believe in Me! and took the title the Bb.

Mull Husayn became the Bb's first disciple. Within a very short time, seventeen other disciples of Siyyid Kzim had independently recognized the Bb as a Manifestation of God, among them was one woman, a poetess, who later received the name of Thirih (the Pure). These eighteen disciples were later to be known as the Letters of the Living

To these first eighteen disciples the Bb gave the task of spreading the new Faith throughout the land.

 

Thats in short the proofs that we follow.

 



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Posted By: azimuth
Date Posted: 13-Nov-2005 at 21:17

 

from that is even clearer that it is somehow a branch of Shia Islam. at least at their beginings.

 



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Posted By: fastspawn
Date Posted: 14-Nov-2005 at 20:33
Forgive me for posting out of turn, as I am a Baha'i and not a Muslim.

Just needed to add my 2-bits.

Nabih, Rasul (I believe some of the friends here were looking for the terms to describe the distinctiong between Messengers and Prophets)

Yes Muhammed is the Seal of the Prophets(Khatam'un Nabi-een). The term Khatam is used in the Quran. If you know, Khatam is used to mean seal as in ornament. The more commonly used term Khatim meaning final or last is not used. The question has never been throroughly debated though. And i shan't because i do not feel i am qualified enough

In the Baha'i Faith, we believe that the Word of God is so powerful, that every sentence has many meanings. (either 5000 or 50000, i am not a scholar of the Baha'i writings, so i cannot remember. This is of course maybe figurative but the essence of the statement is that Man interprets the Word of God as he wills, and will tend to dismiss all other interpretations).
Of course I can see that the same can be applied for all us.

I will just post a link to some reasons behind Seal of the Prophets (not official). Do take time to read it if you will

http://www.bci.org/prophecy-fulfilled/seal.htm - http://www.bci.org/prophecy-fulfilled/seal.htm

To azimuth, yes in a sense, Baha'u'llah was born a Shia Muslim, and declares that Shia Islam was the true branch of descent from True Islam, not Sunni, or other branches.

But still how does being born a Shia, mean that the Baha'i Faith is a branch of Shia Islam? The Baha'is declare themselves as a true, independant religion, that should by itself mean that it is no longer a brance.

Otherwise, we can declare Christianity a branch of Orthodox Judaism.


Posted By: ok ge
Date Posted: 14-Nov-2005 at 20:51

Originally posted by fastspawn

But still how does being born a Shia, mean that the Baha'i Faith is a branch of Shia Islam? The Baha'is declare themselves as a true, independant religion, that should by itself mean that it is no longer a brance.

Otherwise, we can declare Christianity a branch of Orthodox Judaism.

Well, it is not that Baha'ullah was a Shia thus, the religion he brought is a branch of Shiah Islam. It is more of that Bahaism itself especially the one Baha'ullah established is clearly a derivative of the Shiah branch of Islam.

Note that Jesus described himself as a Jew sent to the "lost sheeps of Israel" so actually you can say that his message was not distincitve to Orthodox Judaism initially. It only became distinctive with time as his disciples and "holy spirited" saints added rituals to Christianity making it distinctive, including Christmass, Baptizing, Sunday mass, and the bible itself.  Bahaism has a similar process too.

Anyhow, going back to the point that validate Baha'ullah as a messenger, If Bahau'allah thought that he can be a messenger with a new message, I guess he opened the door for new  messengers. I can set down today and start writing a book and will call it a new religion. So since Baha'ullah did not bring a book of philosophy or mediation but rather a whole new religion, my question will be, how can we verify Baha'ullah or me who will write a book are truly messengers? In a different way, does he present a miracle or his book contains future miracles that came true?

Remember that believing in a philosophy is different than believing in a religion. A philosophy is the product of human whereas religion is the product of God.



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D.J. Kaufman
Wisdom is the reward for a lifetime of listening ... when youd have preferred to talk.


Posted By: fastspawn
Date Posted: 14-Nov-2005 at 21:17
Thank you for the reply cok gec.

It is more of that Bahaism itself especially the one Baha'ullah established is clearly a derivative of the Shiah branch of Islam.


How is Baha'i Faith, clearly a derivative of the Shia Branch of Islam? Because our teachings encompasses Love and Brotherhood? Yes in that aspect we are the same.

I believe that all religions come down with the same spiritual teachings, that of love, unity and brotherhood. It is just that the social teachings for the age changes with the ability of humanity to understand concepts and question intellectually certain practices. (e.g. Role of Prayer, Role of Fasting, Meaning of Hygienic Practices)

The practices that a religion acquires over time, is not what forms the religion. Rather it is the teachings. The Baha'i Faith does not have many rituals and dogmas that we seek to impose on ourselves or others. I am sure due to the role of man in religion it will acquire certain practises not attributed to Baha'u'llah.

It is due to the weaknesses of man that religion devolves into a dogma or extremism, and that is when a new Messenger of God will enter the picture to "make the crooked straight". As we had seen with Moses, and Christ and Mohammed. (One of the things i noticed is that Baha'is tend to overemphasis that we are from the Abrahamic Branch of Religion, This is not entirely true, we are not from the Abrahamic Branch, we are a completely new cycle that unites both Abrahamic and Vedic Branches to form a new age. I have to read up more though as I do not know all the reasonings)

So since Baha'ullah did not bring a book of philosophy or mediation but rather a whole new religion, my question will be, how can we verify Baha'ullah or me who will write a book are truly messengers?


Yes there will be new messengers. He does warn against false prophets though, and the only shield we have against them is that we "know" the cycle will last a thousand years. Other than that, i have to paraphrase, is that the "Word Of God" is heard from the heart. Our mind's eyes must be open and not closed to dogma of generations past.
And sure enough, he does say that the new messenger will be rejected by a majority of humanity at first.
He brought a book, nay, he brought over a hundred volumes of books.

Remember that believing in a philosophy is different than believing in a religion. A philosophy is the product of human whereas religion is the product of God.


Yup, of course. And the Baha'i Faith is not a "philosophy" as per defination.

Thank you, for listening to me.


Posted By: fastspawn
Date Posted: 14-Nov-2005 at 21:38
I haven't a clue why i can't edit my post, so forgive me for putting in a new post so rapidly.

Cok Gec, I don'http://www.allempires.com/t know whether I came on to strong in my last post, I hope I didn't because I tend to sound more gruff than what I hope or wish for when posting.

Anyway on miracles.
I shall relate a "true" story (the point is that some people might or might not accept a story as true or false because they might choose to deny or accept).

Baha'u'llah was asked by the Muslim clergy to stand trial, and answer some serious questions about the validity of the Baha'i Faith as interpreted from the Koran. Baha'u'llah proceeded to answer all their questions fully and without pause.

The next day (or few days I can't exactly remember), the clergy asked him to perform a miracle before the crowd.
Baha'u'llah answered back that (paraphrasing)
Who were they to question God? And to ask Him to perform miracles? Yet God as a mercy on His part, has accepted to performing of a miracle, on the condition that the clergy unequivocably accepted the message of Baha'u'llah on its completion{end paraphrase)
The Clergy baulked, and requested one day to think over it.
The next day they gave various excuses like the fact that miracles do not prove the validity of a prophet (which is true).

As a conclusion, this story is just a painting of why we do not place much emphasis on miracles, although there have been miracles within the Babi and Baha'i Faith.

Here are some links to the concept of miracles.
(You might not be able to access it if you are from Saudi Arabia, i am not sure)
http://bahai-library.com/books/miracles/bahai.html - http://bahai-library.com/books/miracles/bahai.html


Posted By: ok ge
Date Posted: 14-Nov-2005 at 22:30

Originally posted by fastspawn

I shall relate a "true" story (the point is that some people might or might not accept a story as true or false because they might choose to deny or accept).

Well as you said, it is difficult to use that example as a miracle to other non-believer as much as when I tell a Christian of the miracles given to Prophet Muhammed including breaking water out of sand between his fingers..etc

That is why I asked for miracles in his book or later proved to miracle because those stands as witness of the faith and hardly disputable. For example, Quran's scientific miracles are hardly disputed and easy to use in examples. Anything similar to this?

Originally posted by fastspawn

Cok Gec, I don't  know whether I came on to strong in my last post, I hope I didn't because I tend to sound more gruff than what I hope or wish for when posting.

Your previous post was perfectly fine with a polite tone. I have no problems with the two posts you posted earlier. Thank you for the link, I am able to access it. I had more questions in respond to your posts however, I will postpone them after I finished venturing in your link as I might find the answers already there.

Regarding your question why do I think that Bahaism is a derivative of Shiah doctorine, it is the same situation with Christ and Judaism. Initially Baha'ullah is a Shiah believer. Because of that, he draws to his new belief of Bahaism the concept of Imam Mehdi, which is a critical issue for Shiah. Bahaullah declared himself as the Mehdi (suprisingly also as the Christ). Also Bahai faith originated from Babism of Mirza Ali Muhammad proclaimed himself to be the Bab (Gate), "the forerunner of one greater than himself. But as the movement spread throughout much of Iran and Iraq, and especially after the Bab formally declared that Babism was a new religion he was subjected to the growing confrontations by the other Shiite 'ulamas which will lead violence and finally his execution by firing squad in 1850. Mirza Yahya Subh-i-Azal  or Baha'ullah's half-brother- claimed the leadership of the Babis, with its effective leadership in reorganizing the community. Husayn Ali Nur or Baha'allah aroused as a prominent figure among the Babi community. Especially his time in prison in 1852 at Tehran, Baha'ullah was not just a successor anymore, but the holder of the claim of a new prophetic mission which is the Bahai movement.

In Bahaullah's will (Kitab 'ahdi), Bahaullah appointed his brother Abdul Baha as his successor and the leader of the Bahai faith. Notice that the significant development in that period was that the spread of the Faith to North America in 1894 by the efforts of Ibrahim Kheiralla. This Western expansion spread from Northern America to Europe and Australia. Soon there was a flow of American and European pilgrims coming to Akka in 1898.
This Western expansion has significant consequences on the independence of the Faith. As a consequence of the efforts the Bahai Faith was introduced to the peoples from different backgrounds than the previous believers and converts. Though limited in scale, with a diverse background of the new believers, Bahai Faith was no longer confined to a Muslim milieu, but rather an international framework.
These developments also lead the change in the interpretation of the Bahai teachings. In that process of reformulation, although preserving the general Shiite understanding and conceptualization, new formulations of the Bahai teachings were developed in terms of Christian terminology. Abdul Baha himself, dealt with the reformulation in religious and philosophical themes.

Therefore, most scholars will agree that Bahai faith started as a derivative of Shiite Islam and slowly emerged out by Abdul Baha and his successor Effendi (though I believe most Bahai end the line with Abdul Baha).

Regarding my other questions, I am looking for their answers on links you provided. Thank you.

 



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D.J. Kaufman
Wisdom is the reward for a lifetime of listening ... when youd have preferred to talk.


Posted By: fastspawn
Date Posted: 14-Nov-2005 at 23:09
I agree with you that Baha'u'llah was indeed born a Shia Muslim. He states that the Shia Branch of Islam is the true branch of Islam.

And yes some of our teachings are derived from Islam. However, my belief is that all religions come from God, and as such derived from the same source, God.

If that is the meaning of derivation, then yes the Baha'i Faith are like Islam and Christianity, derived from God.

Abdul' Baha is the son of Baha'u'llah, not the brother. Subh-i-Azal, was the half-brother.

Azalis, deny that Baha'u'llah is the Promised One ("Him who God shall make Manifest"). However their branch is small, and dwindling, because no other person has stepped forward to claim he was. And it would be a contradiction to be a Babi and await the Promised One, and yet no Promised One was revealed.

Subh-i-Azal, did not claim the post of head of the Babi's. He was conferred it by the Bab upon Mirza Husayn's (Baha'u'llah) recommendation. (Most of the prominent Babis, the first apostles were matyred, imprisoned )
IT was a titular name, and Mirza Yahya's term saw the degradation of the Babi Faith as they became more politicized.

I don't know how much of this "history" is distorted, after all it was man who wrote the history. But Mirza Yahya was painted as cowardly and easily influenced by his compatriot Muhammed Ali, who secretly seeked to be the new head.

In truth, Baha'u'llah never did have ill-feelings towards Mirza Yahya, despite being the target of his assassination attempts and numerous allegations towards the Shah and Sultan that got the fledgling Baha'i Faith in trouble. It just wasn't in his nature. (Well that is what is written in history, and the only few people to write Baha'i History usually become Baha'is)



In the Kitab-i-Ahd, Baha'u'llah states that his successor Abdul-Baha (Abbas Effendi), his son, was to be the new Head of the Baha'i Faith. He was allowed to interpret his teachings, and his laws, and his word became the authoritative interpretation. In other words, he cannot add any new laws, but can only explain to people what Baha'u'llah's laws mean.

This role of interpreter is very important. Baha'is as I explained earlier, are wary of false interpretation of their teachings, and only successors of the Faith can interpret the laws into canon. All Baha'is can understand the writings differently, but none can press it on another person. That is why we have no clergy.

Shoghi Effendi, his Grandson, was appointed as the Guardian in Abdul-Baha's Will and Testament.
Shoghi Effendi, though, met a lot of opposition especially amongst his own family members. This was because, they as humans, also wanted to have this "status".

Regretably, but probably by Divine Providence (as I shall explain later), they were declared Covenant-Breakers, or excommunicated. This was to protect the Baha'i Faith from schisms that disrupt their unity. (Islam had the same problem with schism)

After the passing of Shoghi Effendi passed away, the Universal House of Justice was formed. The seat of the House resides in haifa. This body, doesn't have the powers of interpretation. But they have the power of creating social laws that are not in contradiction with the teachings of Baha'u'llah.

If the Guardian had issue, there would be a next Guardian. Or it would have passed to the nearest Aghsan, (male-line descendant of Baha'u'llah not a covenant breaker). Instead we today have the station of the Guardian, but no human occupying this position. (and never more, as far as I can tell)

This means that the Universal House of Justice can only refer back to either Shoghi Effendi, Abdul-Baha, or Baha'u'llah for guidance. This means that there will be a future dispensation that will come down with new social laws and teachings. But for now, apparently the laws are enough for the next 1000 years (of which 161 have passed)

(Thus I suppose a simple timeline is Bab-Baha'u'llah-Abdul-Baha-Shoghi Effendi-(post Shoghi, pre UHJ AKA International Baha'i Council)-Universal House of Justice)

All Baha'is have to accede to this line. I am afraid to say that any Baha'i that detracts from this line is most assuredly a covenant-breaker, as can be read from both Wills and Testaments.


Posted By: azimuth
Date Posted: 15-Nov-2005 at 00:56

 

ok, if he considered the Shia branch of Islam is the correct one, why would he makes a new religion??

As per muslim belive Jesus came and considered Judaisim as a corrupted religion and he had to get it to the right direction also when Islam Came it considered both judaisim and christianity as corrupted religions ( corrupted by their people) and Islam is the continuation of these religions but in the right un-corrupted way.

so as per Shia Islam ( which Bahaullah approved ) the Mahdi will Get the people to correct Islam and justic in the world Not a totally different religion.

so tell me how can he considered any religion to be the True one while he makes a new one.

obviously he might thought that those religions are NOT the correct ones and a new one must be made to replace them.

 



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Posted By: fastspawn
Date Posted: 15-Nov-2005 at 01:40
Azimuth,

I am sorry if I have not being as clear as I have wished to be.

What I said about Shia Islam is that, that branch was the correct succession of Islam.

Again in Islam, as with all religions, man will corrupt the religion and introduce dogmas and superstitions based upon their own interpretations of the Word of God.

And all religions, if they come from God, are correct. None is wrong. it is just that we need new social laws, and a greater understanding of man's role that comes with our combined maturity.
That is why we have a progressive revelation, as God will never leave Man alone to fend for himself, yet he cannot reveal everything to Man at once as Man cannot swallow it.


Posted By: Arpad
Date Posted: 15-Nov-2005 at 08:40

Allah'u'Abha fastspawn how are you. LOL

The story you gave about the Miracle they wanted Baha'u'llah to perform, I was going to write the exact same story lol. But i thought not, but then you did so it must have been God's will

 

Azimuth

so as per Shia Islam ( which Bahaullah approved ) the Mahdi will Get the people to correct Islam and justic in the world Not a totally different religion.

I understand this, but wasn't the knew messanger from Christianity supposed to come down from Clouds in a white horse (Not quite sure) etc., Did Muhammad come to the people like that? no., thats why we believe that these are symbolic in meaning. Maybe fastspawn can go further into this, im scared with my bad english i might write something not good ))



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Posted By: Jhangora
Date Posted: 15-Nov-2005 at 09:02

Religion,Nationality,Race,Language........all these identities r intertwined.Can we think outside these boundaries.My personal opinion is .....it's nearly impossible for an average human being to do so.N even though we might be able to break free of these boundaries for a short while .....when we r within our GROUP of people...'Mass Psychology' takes over.

Falsafi ko bahas ke andar khuda milta nahi,Bahas ko suljha raha hai aur sira milta nahi.

All discussions/disputes based on religion will be solved by war or qayamat/the day of judgement/pralaya..............



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Jai Badri Vishal


Posted By: gcle2003
Date Posted: 15-Nov-2005 at 09:18
Originally posted by ok ge

Well as you said, it is difficult to use that example as a miracle

The reason it is difficult to use that example as a miracle is that he didn't perform one. He bluffed his way out of it.

 



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Posted By: fastspawn
Date Posted: 15-Nov-2005 at 10:43
The reason it is difficult to use that example as a miracle is that he didn't perform one. He bluffed his way out of it.


I am sorry you feel so strongly about miracles. I am not here to proselytize nor convert so i didn't feel the need or had the ability to list everything that Baha'u'llah did and said down.

That is why I asked for miracles in his book or later proved to miracle because those stands as witness of the faith and hardly disputable. For example, Quran's scientific miracles are hardly disputed and easy to use in examples.


I regretfully am ignorant and need to know what scientific miracles are.
Are we talking about prophecies about the state of the world as predicted?
I am going to quote a few from the book by Gary L. Matthews "The Challenges of Baha'u'llah.
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1. The fall of Napoleon III, given in 1868. We remember him falling in 1870 to Prussia, thanks to the emergence of the diplomatic hand of Bismarck. Prior to this Napoleon was almost able to restore his uncles legacy.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Napoleon_III - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Napoleon_III

2. The defeat of Germany in TWO bloody wars after their defeat of the French, leading to the "lamentation of Berlin". We know what happened, it is probably the biggest news in the 20th century.

3. The success and stability of Queen Victoria (and her progeny). Well not that obvious taking Fergie's dalliances and all. But still they are definately more stable now then ever.

4. The dismissal of Ali-Pasha and violent deposal of Sultan Abdul Aziz. This might seem a bit obvious in hindsight. But one of the noted clerical opponents of Baha'u'llah, Mirza Abdul Fadl, used this "prophecy" to point out that it was so improbable, that he vowed to join the ranks of the Baha'is if that happened.
In 1876, after the dismissal of Ali-Pasha, Abdul Aziz was killed in a conspiracy.
Mirza Abu'l Fadl, upon reminder of his promise, (after some thought), retired from his post as head of the Madrisih Hakim Hashim, and became a respected Baha'i

5. The fall of the Ottoman Empire. That is also a no-brainer to me. Ottoman Empire is the sick man of europe. But I don't have the gumption to make a prophecy like that.

6. The fall of Nasri-din-shah. In 1896, he was killed by an assassin. 2 Baha'is paid the price, Varqa a poet and his 12 year old son. It turned out that the assassin was a pan-islamist, Mirza Rida. Apparently Nasri-din-Shah probably aware of all the prophecies that were coming true (the fall of Napoleon and the Sultans), started becoming more moderate, and on his assassination's date planned on renounicing his prerogatives as a despot and stop persecution of Bahai's. That of course led to the Islamist Rida to crazed fanaticism.

7. Creation of the State of Israel following their persecution in Europe.

8. Violent Racial Struggles in America. (This was attributed to Abdul-Baha in 1912).

(end this section for brevity)
For now I shall stop with social prophecies and focus on Scientific ones.

1. The blossoming of scientific and technological progress. This is quite clear if you compare 1850-present how much has changed. one of the first few technologies "that brought the world closer", the invention of the telegraph and telephone and the development of flight, motorized transport et al.

2. The development of nuclear weapons. saying it will change the atmosphere and contaminate the earth.

3. alludes to the process as a transmutation of the elements. Brings to bear again the fact that this discovery will be very dire.

4. And several others within the book, which i am a bit too tired to type out.

---------------------------------------

Again, I think these prophecies are not even worth an ounce towards whether i believe or disbelieve Baha'u'llah's teachings, I am just stating that to correct people who might think that Baha'u'llah never did have any "miracles".
For physical miracles I only have to say that the Bab was shot by a firing squad of 750 rifles and was not killed. That full story I shan't elaborate for now.

Again all these interpretations of prophecies, are Matthews personal interpretation, and should not be taken and completely believed as canon.


Posted By: Maziar
Date Posted: 15-Nov-2005 at 12:50
Originally posted by ok ge

Originally posted by Maziar

 Anger and punishment aren't an effective method for decent education. Fearing parents will causes many mental problemes in futur.

It's the same thing in relation with God. Why do you need to "fear" a god for being decent?

Sure. Find me a parent who never ever got angry and never ever punished their kids.

I personally never seen that and punishment does not have to be physical. It is something common sense that we have punishing results for your wrong work. Punishment is a part of the educational system actually, which is from receiving F for your low performance in class, being asked to stay in your room for the night by your parent, cut in your monthly salary by your employee, fines of speeding, all the way to prison and execution. That is realism, however, if you believe in managing human beings with no punishment, i respect your ultra-idealistic belief.

Hello,

Practicing physical punishment by many parents dont legalize it. It is still a false method. I didnt mean there must be no sanction at all. If you are talking about "fearing" your father, so i just can think about physical punishment.

Sorry for misunderstanding you



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Posted By: ok ge
Date Posted: 15-Nov-2005 at 16:20
Originally posted by Maziar

Hello,

Practicing physical punishment by many parents dont legalize it. It is still a false method. I didnt mean there must be no sanction at all. If you are talking about "fearing" your father, so i just can think about physical punishment.

Sorry for misunderstanding you

No problem my friend.

   I know that most of the time, people think that punishment of parents means only physical one. Which is definitely a useless process that causes harm instead.

   Since Im a religious person (or trying to be), I like to take my examples out of my religious teaching where the Prophet not only has never used his hand beating, he has never shouted or insulted his daughter Fatima or even his servant Anas, not even telling him "why you didn't do that" for things he didn't do. One story i love is when once a time his wife Aisha got jealous from a gift the prophet received and she threw the plate on the floor breaking it in front of other companions. If it was me, I have no clue what I will be doing. Maybe furious and shouting on her. However the prophet just smiled and sayed "your mother got jealous". 



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D.J. Kaufman
Wisdom is the reward for a lifetime of listening ... when youd have preferred to talk.


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 15-Nov-2005 at 19:33

Originally posted by fastspawn

Forgive me for posting out of turn, as I am a Baha'i and not a Muslim.

Just needed to add my 2-bits.

Nabih, Rasul (I believe some of the friends here were looking for the terms to describe the distinctiong between Messengers and Prophets)

Yes Muhammed is the Seal of the Prophets(Khatam'un Nabi-een). The term Khatam is used in the Quran. If you know, Khatam is used to mean seal as in ornament. The more commonly used term Khatim meaning final or last is not used. The question has never been throroughly debated though. And i shan't because i do not feel i am qualified enough

In the Baha'i Faith, we believe that the Word of God is so powerful, that every sentence has many meanings. (either 5000 or 50000, i am not a scholar of the Baha'i writings, so i cannot remember. This is of course maybe figurative but the essence of the statement is that Man interprets the Word of God as he wills, and will tend to dismiss all other interpretations).
Of course I can see that the same can be applied for all us.

I will just post a link to some reasons behind Seal of the Prophets (not official). Do take time to read it if you will

http://www.bci.org/prophecy-fulfilled/seal.htm - http://www.bci.org/prophecy-fulfilled/seal.htm

To azimuth, yes in a sense, Baha'u'llah was born a Shia Muslim, and declares that Shia Islam was the true branch of descent from True Islam, not Sunni, or other branches.

But still how does being born a Shia, mean that the Baha'i Faith is a branch of Shia Islam? The Baha'is declare themselves as a true, independant religion, that should by itself mean that it is no longer a brance.

Otherwise, we can declare Christianity a branch of Orthodox Judaism.

Hai fastspawn... just a curious here... are u a malay, chinese or indian? how many Baha'i already in Singapore....? Does ur government acknowledge ur faith? Do u guys have any follower in Malaysia?



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Posted By: Arpad
Date Posted: 15-Nov-2005 at 22:16
yes there are Baha'i in Malayisa, including my cousins who are half chinese and half Iranian. There are Baha'i all around the world aswell.

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Posted By: oTToMAn_TurK
Date Posted: 15-Nov-2005 at 22:32

what i dnt get is that in the koran there is not even a slight saying that prophicises the coming of a new prophit after mohammed. if anything it talks about coming of false prophits but never anymore prophits after mohammed (pbuh). the jews holy book prohpised that that the messaih, jesus, would come adn also a another prohit "like" moses (wich was mohammed coz jesus wasnt "lik" moses). the bible (although this claim isnt popular among christians) also talks about a coming of a new prophit after jesus. why there isnt no proof in the koran that there will be a new prophit?

in islam its very dangerous to say or believe in mohammed, while not believing he is the last and seal of all prophets. so it is very hard for most muslims to convert to the bahai faith. not denying it probly happens ofcourse



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Either your a slave to what MADE-MAN
Or your a slave to what MAN-MADE


Posted By: fastspawn
Date Posted: 16-Nov-2005 at 06:47
There are officially around 2000 baha'is in Singapore, but like all religions some are more active than others.

In malaysia there are a lot of Baha'is.

Baha'is are one of the 9 official religions in Singapore, but I don't know about Malaysia.

As we tend to be apolitical, we try to stay out of the limelight.


Posted By: Maziar
Date Posted: 16-Nov-2005 at 13:52

Originally posted by Arpad

yes there are Baha'i in Malayisa, including my cousins who are half chinese and half Iranian. There are Baha'i all around the world aswell.

Hi Arpad, very interesting, are they iranian bahaai which moved there? or they are malay in origin?



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Posted By: Ollios
Date Posted: 26-Oct-2013 at 10:28
There are three steps in my life

1-As a secular guy, talking about someone's religion is a rude act for me. It should stay in private.
so even when the time we had bahai neighours, I never talked this issue. I stayed away

2-When I saw this

Bahai temple in India

I thought that it was something like Budism-Hindusim-Scientology;
Human made peace religion which means nice  but establish by force, it hasn't got history or culture

3- After reading visit of Bahai  prophet to Edirne and Istanbul, seeing that he comes from Islamic world and after learn that some places in Turkey are holy for them, also Turkey has 10.000 bahai (it is more then greeks now), I start to feel sympathy against it.

but I still don't know anything about them

now they have a place up of my head(Turkish idiom which means you are welcome)


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Ellerin Kabe'si var,
Benim Kabem İnsandır


Posted By: yomud
Date Posted: 07-Nov-2013 at 03:34
well i don't know anything about them too Except iranian gov don't like them so much and their first temple was build in ashabad  what places are holy for them in turkey ??


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yomud are free people


Posted By: Ollios
Date Posted: 07-Nov-2013 at 13:51
Originally posted by yomud

their first temple was build in ashabad 


WOW, I learnt something newBig smile

Originally posted by yomud


what places are holy for them in turkey ??


The house of prophet in Edirne. He stayed in there nearly two years

http://www.turkeytour.net/istanbul-tour-packages/daily-tours-to-bahai-holy-places.html - http://www.turkeytour.net/istanbul-tour-packages/daily-tours-to-bahai-holy-places.html


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Ellerin Kabe'si var,
Benim Kabem İnsandır


Posted By: yomud
Date Posted: 14-Nov-2013 at 19:09
remember  because they build their first temple in ashgabat dosn't mean we have bahai turkmen  the temple destroyed in earthquake 


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yomud are free people


Posted By: Ollios
Date Posted: 15-Nov-2013 at 14:45
Originally posted by yomud

remember  because they build their first temple in ashgabat dosn't mean we have bahai turkmen  the temple destroyed in earthquake 


I have read that the first Bahais in Turkmenistan were Persian immigrants not local Turkmens


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Ellerin Kabe'si var,
Benim Kabem İnsandır


Posted By: yomud
Date Posted: 20-Nov-2013 at 17:52
a

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yomud are free people


Posted By: Miriam
Date Posted: 07-Aug-2018 at 07:53
Hello all! There is so much to learn about the Baha'i Faith! I have been a Baha'i follower for 2 years by now but still I feel like I know just a little bit about it.

When anyone asks me why did I become a Baha'i, I say "you and I should have a longer conversation". Tongue

But I guess long story short, I chose this faith because unlike almost all other religions, Baha'i Faith promotes the principle of unity among the world's religions. It is so unusual especially when you hear that every confession considers itself THE RIGHT ONE, and condemns others. 

I can't stand it in religion, I think the main goal should be peace and unity, not hegemony. 

Anyway, for those who want to learn more about the Baha'i Faith, please listen to this amazing http://https://mystar95.com/ - online faith radio that became my favorite from the first day I found it. There is great spiritual music combined with faith talks and Baha'i teachings. You can always stay tuned cuz it is online radio which doesn't require anything except your phone and the Internet connection. 

Enjoy! Best wishes!



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