How is Tamerlane related to Genghis Khan?
Printed From: History Community ~ All Empires
Category: Regional History or Period History
Forum Name: Steppe Nomads and Central Asia
Forum Discription: Nomads such as the Scythians, Huns, Turks & Mongols, and kingdoms of Central Asia
URL: http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=6448
Printed Date: 24-Apr-2024 at 07:10
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Topic: How is Tamerlane related to Genghis Khan?
Posted By: theauxphou
Subject: How is Tamerlane related to Genghis Khan?
Date Posted: 23-Oct-2005 at 09:42
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Hi, I read in a book that Tamerlane was Genghis's great-grandson, but is this actually true or just a story Tamerlane invented to give himself credibility which has been accepted as fact throughout the years or are bookwriters just not doing their research?
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Replies:
Posted By: Feramez
Date Posted: 23-Oct-2005 at 13:10
| I don't think there is much proof for this. From what I know this is a claim that only he made. I think he was Turk, but back then and even today, many Turks in Central Asia may actually really be of Mongol decent. Either way he was one of the best leaders for the Turks or Mongols. I wonder if Mongols even consider him Mongol. |
Posted By: yan.
Date Posted: 08-Nov-2005 at 11:25
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Didn't Timur marry a descendant of Chinggis? |
Posted By: Temujin
Date Posted: 08-Nov-2005 at 12:56
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yes he did, to legitimize his rule. ------------- |
Posted By: Zagros
Date Posted: 08-Nov-2005 at 13:29
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I have read that he was a Turkicised Mongol. ------------- |
Posted By: Drunt Ba'adur
Date Posted: 08-Nov-2005 at 16:44
According to the wikipedia:
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Posted By: kuralas
Date Posted: 09-Nov-2005 at 12:53
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Hi,
Tamerlane was from Barlas clan. Genghis Khan was kiyat (kiyat-kuralas). But both clans are nirun. The niruns were turkic clans. |
Posted By: SaikhaNBayar
Date Posted: 14-Nov-2005 at 10:56
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http://users.rcn.com/web-czar/timur.htmI don`t know why member I don`t know why member kuralas saying Nirun (nuruun in mongol language) were turkic... but u will find many proofs that Ju Jans were mongol clans...
http://mongoliansteppe.mine.nu/mongolia.php - http://mongoliansteppe.mine.nu/mongolia.php ------------- The 800th Anniversary of the Great Mongolian State. 2006 |
Posted By: AlbinoAlien
Date Posted: 14-Nov-2005 at 11:36
ahh!!! incest...that is if hes right! maybe we can figure this out if we find out whether incest was considered alright in the steppes during this time period. ------------- people are the emotions of other people (im not albino..or pale!) .....or an alien.. |
Posted By: Jazz
Date Posted: 14-Nov-2005 at 15:50
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The only connection I have heard between the 2 is that they had 1
common descendant in Babur, the Afgan warrior who invaded India in
1526, toppling the Dehli Sultanate, and establishing the Mughal Empire. Babur claimed (and I do not know if this has been legitimized) that one of his parents was a direct descendant of Genghis Khan, and the other a direct descendant of Timur. ------------- http://www.forums.internationalhockey.net/index.php?/index.php?referrerid=8 - International Hockey Forums |
Posted By: yan.
Date Posted: 15-Nov-2005 at 10:09
So... If he was a descendant of Chingis, he certainly breached one very high of their values. |
Posted By: xi_tujue
Date Posted: 15-Sep-2006 at 14:40
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Temur, Taimur, Timur Lenk, Timur-i Leng, Temur-e Lang, Amir Timur, Aqsaq Timur but this is what you were wonderingTimūr Gurkānī ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persian_language - Persian : تيمور گوركانى), Gurkān being the Persianized form of the original Mongolian word kürügän, "son-in-law".  ------------- I rather be a nomadic barbarian than a sedentary savage |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 16-Sep-2006 at 00:47
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timur was not afghan, he was born in ozbekistan originally. Timur is not related to genghis khan, he is not a descendant of genghis khan. He call himself a descendant of genghis khan is because he wants to legitmize his political rule in central asia...In other words, he lied to the public...
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Posted By: Turk Nomad
Date Posted: 17-Sep-2006 at 06:46
| Timur was uzbeg Turk ı heard. |
Posted By: xi_tujue
Date Posted: 17-Sep-2006 at 08:22
yep he was ------------- I rather be a nomadic barbarian than a sedentary savage |
Posted By: Akskl
Date Posted: 17-Sep-2006 at 11:16
| Timur was a Turkic nomad. His wife was a descendant of Genghis Khan. They had absolutely no relation to modern Khalkha-Mongols. Babur was one their descendants - also a Tuirkic nomad, who was born in Ferghana. They spoke Turkic language - Chaghatay dialect. Timurids lost their power later to other Turkic nomads - the so-called Uzbek-Kazakhs, who were the same people as Kazakhs - not related to urban Sarts who have a settled Iranian-type culture, but are also called "Uzbeks" since 1920s. |
Posted By: Nestorian
Date Posted: 17-Sep-2006 at 21:53
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Wasn't TImur a Barlas Turkicised Mongol? No intended offense to anyone. ------------- Isa al-Masih, both God and Man, divine and human, flesh and spirit, saviour, servant and sovereign |
Posted By: Jonon
Date Posted: 17-Sep-2006 at 22:33
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His father http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Taraghay&action=edit - Taraghay was head of the tribe of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barlas - Barlas , a nomadic Turkic-speaking tribe of Mongol origin that traced its origin to the Mongol commander http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qarachar_Barlas - Qarachar Barlas . Taraghay was the great-grandson of http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Qarachar_Noyon&action=edit - Qarachar Noyon and, distinguished among his fellow-clansmen as the first convert to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam - Islam , Taraghay might have assumed the high military rank which fell to him by right of inheritance; but like his father Burkul he preferred a life of retirement and study. Taraghay would eventually retire to a Muslim monastery, telling his son that "the world is a beautiful vase filled with http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scorpion - scorpions ." from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tamerlane - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tamerlane
Tamerlane declared himself as descendant of Gengiz Khan. So he can be a worthy Mongol. Anyone who declare himself as Mongol can be Mongol.
Mongol is not necessarily a race. Its collection of clans
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Posted By: Akskl
Date Posted: 17-Sep-2006 at 22:48
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Those so-called "Mongols" who were all Turkic speaking nomads have no
relation to modern Khalkha-Mongols who monopolly claim themselves as
their "direct descendants". There is a big confusion in history of Great Steppe. Turkic nomads constantly are called by wrong names associated with modern either Turkic settled peoples - various Tatars, modern Uyghurs-Sarts, Turks of Anatolia, etc. - who all are results of metisation of the Turkic nomads with conquered local settled peoples. Or with Khalkha-Mongols, who have no relation to Genghis Khan, but monopolized all Genghis Khan's heritage. Direct descendants of the Turkic nomads today are Kazakhs, very close to us (and almost totally exterminated by Russians) Noghays, Steppe or Northern Crimean Tatars (who are in fact Noghays, too, and also almost totally exterminated), very close to Kazakhs Uzbek nomads (who are not urban Sarts!) and Kyrghyzs, Turkmens, and maybe, Bashkirs, who are mixture of Turkic nomads and local Ugro-Finns. |
Posted By: Jonon
Date Posted: 17-Sep-2006 at 23:35
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did not Mongols beat Turks Or Turks conquer other Turks ?
Are you saying Turks founded Mongol empire?
I don't really buy your idea, but why don't you start new topic thoseKhalkha
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Posted By: Bulldog
Date Posted: 18-Sep-2006 at 08:04
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The question regarding Timurlane's ethnicity can easily be determined by what he wrote.
"Biz ki Mülük-i Turan, Emir-i Türkistan'ız: (We are the possessors of Turan and Emir of Turkestan) Biz ki Türk oğlu Türk'üz; (We are real Turks that are the sons of Turks) Biz ki milletlerin en kadîmî ve en ulusu (We are the members of the oldest and the highest nation) Türk'ün başbuğuyuz!..." (We are the leaders of Turks) Or we can read what the famous Historian "Ibn Khaldun" wrote about him. Ibn Khaldun explained that he had wanted to meet Tamerlane "for 30 or 40 years," because "you are the sultan of the universe and the ruler of the world, and I do not believe that there has appeared among men from Adam until this epoch a ruler like you." He then introduced his favorite theory, that 'asabiyah, group solidarity, was necessary for sovereignty, and the greater the number sharing the 'asabiyah , the greater the power of the sovereignty. "You know how the power of the Arabs was established when they became united in their religion in following their Prophet. As for the Turks ... in their group solidarity, no king on earth can be compared with them, not Chosroes nor Caesar nor Alexander nor Nebuchadnezzar." We could go on and on its pretty clear he was and thought of himself as a Turk. This confusion is made in the West because in that era little was known about the East and especially Central Asia/Turkistan as Timur himself referred to the area. The same confusion is made with the "Mughals" in the West some seem to think they were Mongols, while Babur Khan explicitly wrote in his autobiography that he was a Turk, everyone in his town was a Turk and they all spoke Turki. I don't understand why people don't listen and read what the people they're commenting about actually wrote it would save alot of pointless arguments. Timur started as a Turkish shepard, he was extremely intellegent and a great pollitician, he married into an influencial family, called himself a descendant of Cengiz as a pollitical stunt and founded one of the greatest Empires and let the culture flourish. ------------- “What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal.” Albert Pine |
Posted By: Vivek Sharma
Date Posted: 18-Sep-2006 at 08:43
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Is,nt that like many stories which intelligent & opportunistic persons everywhere in the world are known to do ?
------------- PATTON NAGAR, Brains win over Brawn |
Posted By: alish
Date Posted: 04-Aug-2007 at 16:39
| Temur was Uzbek. Uzbek is not the same Kazakh. Uzbek is the group of clans in Central Asia, the ruler clans(ruled kazahs too), one of them was Temur. Temur spoke Uzbek, lived in modern Uzbekistan, was born in modern Uzbekistan, and had the uzbek traditions, not Kazakh(which does not have so reach culture and not related to real Central Asian ruler clans).. Yes, some clans moved to Central Asia from the north, but hey, they spoke uzbek language with uzbek cultures, so, you got it... Kazakhs are other more mongolic turciks who denied to surve uzbek clans, and prefferd to be dogs for russians soon. And did not feel shame to attack Central Asia under the command of their russian lords in 1860s. Just for the record... take one of the poems of Babur(grand... grandson of Temur), and give yourself a question in what language it is written?. How about Husayn Boyqaro, the ruler of Modern Afghanistan....He wrote poems too. His best friend was Alisher Navoi... Their mother language was turkiy, which is directly modern UZBEK.... Remember!!! |
Posted By: Bulldog
Date Posted: 05-Aug-2007 at 09:43
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Biradar, Temur was a Turk.
He spoke Turki and had it written in this biography.
Ali Sher Navoi also was a Turk, he wrote in Turki.
As was Babur khan and all the other leaders and important peoples you mentioned also are.
Does this mean they are not the descendants and forefathers of Ozbeks?
Ofcourse not.
As they are from todays Ozbekistan region, they were Turkic like Ozbeks are and their beautiful rich language is the root of todays Ozbek Turki.
Also Oz'bek Khan is part of Ozbek heritage.
However, also part of Kazak and Kipchaks heritage.
In other words, all Turkic history is Ozbeks heritage, being Turkic there is a tie to all of them.
Therefore there is no need to argue about Ozbek, Kazak etc its pointless and counter-productive.
Rahmat ------------- “What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal.” Albert Pine |
Posted By: TugZy
Date Posted: 22-May-2009 at 22:30
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Akskl, I ve heard Tumur was from a barulas clan, which is still in modern Mongolia. But i am sure he was a tureg and he married a noble mongolian woman. Unfortunately there is another point irrelevant to the topic. I still wonder that there still exist such kazakhs who try to steal famous people from other nations. F.e.They even make a number of movies called , Genghis was kazakh, Genghis is ours, bla bla. Its ridiculuous. And how wondering that even your president Nazarbaev talks to the radio that Genhghis was a kazakh! We wont reject your relation with Genghis Khan if u really are, if not what a shame!. sTop this nonsense |
Posted By: Basmachi
Date Posted: 26-May-2009 at 02:00
In age of Amir Temur(Tamerlane), there wasn't a nation like Uzbeks. Then, all turkic people call themselves as Turks, not Turkic. But there was tribal diffrences. Amir Temur was a Karluk Turk. Before modern age, Turks divided by tribes like Oghuzs (modern Turkey, Azerbaijan, Turkmenistan, NCTR etc.), Karluks (modern Uzbekistan, Karahanids on history), Kipchaks (modern Kazakhstan, Kyrgizstan etc.). And Amir Temur was a Karluk Turk. He says: "Biz kim millatlarning en qodimi Turkning bosh boghimiz" (I'm the Bashbugh (Great Leader for Turks) of the greatest nation, Turks) ------------- "Yesterday is but today's memory, tomorrow is today's dream." (Khalil Gibran) |
Posted By: Temujin
Date Posted: 31-May-2009 at 20:59
| well he was not Karluk, he spoke Chaghatay Turkish and considdered himself Turk but he descendet from a Mongol Clan. |
Posted By: Justurk
Date Posted: 31-May-2009 at 21:40
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Linguistically speaking Chaghatay Turkic is based on Qarluq dialects of Turkic language.
So he can be considered to be a Qarluq. ------------- Whether you call Turkish or Turkic, We are all Turks. |
Posted By: Temujin
Date Posted: 31-May-2009 at 21:48
| no i don't think so because Karluk means belonging to the Karluk tribe you don't change your nationality just because you speak a certain language, don't tell the Austrians they're German just because they speak German. |
Posted By: Basmachi
Date Posted: 01-Jun-2009 at 08:08
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There wasn't a clan named as Chaghatai. It's a dialect of Turkish which spoken by Uzbeks and Uyghurs. There was main clans like Karluks, Oghuzs, Kipchaks... ------------- "Yesterday is but today's memory, tomorrow is today's dream." (Khalil Gibran) |
Posted By: Temujin
Date Posted: 02-Jun-2009 at 20:29
| yeah i know there was no people called Chaghatay but that's the language that he spoke. |
Posted By: Bulldog
Date Posted: 02-Jun-2009 at 23:05
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Cagatay is another misnomer like Mughal is, these terms wern't used by the people which there attached to in the English language.
------------- “What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal.” Albert Pine |
Posted By: toyomotor
Date Posted: 03-Jan-2014 at 11:36
Timur, Tarmashirin Khan, Emir Timur, Timur Beg Gurkhani, historically known as Tamerlane, was a Turko-Mongol ruler of Barlas lineage. He conquered West, South and Central Asia and founded the Timurid dynasty. |