Print Page | Close Window

Alans???

Printed From: History Community ~ All Empires
Category: Regional History or Period History
Forum Name: Ethnic History of Central Asia
Forum Discription: Discussions about the ethnic origins of Central Asian peoples. All topics related to ethnicity should go here.
URL: http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=6363
Printed Date: 22-Dec-2014 at 22:00
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 9.56a - http://www.webwizforums.com


Topic: Alans???
Posted By: Janissary
Subject: Alans???
Date Posted: 19-Oct-2005 at 22:57

Tell me, were they not TURKISH??????????????




Replies:
Posted By: Persian
Date Posted: 20-Oct-2005 at 00:02

Janissary dear, are you like a hardcore ultra-chauvinist?

if they were "Turkish" (which they are not) please give us some sources and feedbacks on your claims,  and not sources from racist pan-turkish propaganda sites.



-------------
Iran = Iran, nothing else


Posted By: Zagros
Date Posted: 20-Oct-2005 at 05:33

Here is what the Alans themselves say:

http://www.canada-osetia.net/iryston/page3.html - http://www.canada-osetia.net/iryston/page3.html



-------------


Posted By: Seko
Date Posted: 20-Oct-2005 at 08:59
Janissary, not every Iranian is a Aryan agenda pusher. So show some respect and provide links next time. You sound like an ignorant pan-nationalist when all you do is glorify your certain groups of people without proper knowledge of their history.  

-------------


Posted By: Yungsiyebu_Uriankhai
Date Posted: 20-Oct-2005 at 09:46

Mongols called Alans Asu or Asud. there was ever an Alan tribe among Mongols during Northern Yuan dynasty, whose leader Alutai was very powerful, but he was defeated by Oirad Mongols in the end, his Asud tribe became one of 3 tribes of Yungsiyebu tumen later.

In spite of their origins, the Alans should have been very Turkified when they arrived to Yuan capital Dadu, although probably with a strong Iranian feature, Like today's Uzebs i guess.

 

 



Posted By: tadamson
Date Posted: 20-Oct-2005 at 09:53
Originally posted by Janissary

Tell me, were they not TURKISH??????????????



Almost certainly not Turkish,  name and place name analysis of the various groups of Alans throughout the years suggest that they spoke an Iranian based language (just like the other Sarmatian tribes).


-------------
rgds.

      Tom..


Posted By: Zagros
Date Posted: 20-Oct-2005 at 09:56

^ Indeed, but their language essentially remained Iranic.  It belongs to the Eastern Branch of the Iranian language group like Scytho-Sarmatian and modern Pashtun and developed independently of Western Iranian languages like Persian and must therefore possess more archaic characteristics.

I think it is looked at in more detail here: http://www.iranianlanguages.com - www.iranianlanguages.com  , check the forum.



-------------


Posted By: Janissary
Date Posted: 20-Oct-2005 at 18:18

The second Time i give it here:

Please read at all, and then make me not to believe that:

http://www.kafkas.org.tr/english/analiz/karacaylarin%20tarihi4.html - http://www.kafkas.org.tr/english/analiz/karacaylarin%20tarih i4.html

please read at all

 



-------------


Posted By: Zagros
Date Posted: 20-Oct-2005 at 19:30

To me, that reads like the OPINION of one man who wants to impose his own version of history, he does not refer to any academic sources whatsoever.



-------------


Posted By: Janissary
Date Posted: 20-Oct-2005 at 22:44

Read Alan Population of Northern Caucasus

There is enough information

And also, this source says that Alans are The same With MAssagets, and I remember u geve me a source that says that Massagets were Skytians.

Does it means that Alans=Massagets?

I know information that Cirus the Great was killed by Massagets in the battle on Araz River.

What is your opinion with that?

But that may make a sense, becouse, Both Alans and Skytians moved modern Iran land through Caucasus coridor and they both moved from Ukrainan and Volga-Don steppe.



-------------


Posted By: Janissary
Date Posted: 20-Oct-2005 at 22:45

And also

Hence, Alans were a Turk tribe. This fact can also corroborated by that there is a separate tribal group called Alans has remained among the modern Turkmen up to now. The names of these Alan kins are interesting to recall: Mirshi-kar, Boluk-aul , Eshek, Aiak-Char, Kara-mogul, Tokuz, Ker, Belke etc. Alan tribal groups live also in Uzbekistan, Tadjikistan and Altai. Among the Altai tribes, there is a tribal group called "Alandan kelgen ", i. e. "those who came from the plain".
Moreover, the word "alan" conveys the idea of "plain" or "valley" in many Turk languages.
The nearest neighbors of Karachais, Megrelians, refer to Karachais as Alans up to now. No Caucasian nationality uses this ethnonym, except Balkarians and Karachais.(2)

 

It really makes sense I think.



-------------


Posted By: Zagros
Date Posted: 21-Oct-2005 at 04:45

He says that Alans called themselves "As" - how does he know that? He does not cite any source.

Yes Cyrus was killed while on campaign against the Massagetae.  I have said before, Persians and Medians were tribes like the Massagetae, Apa Sakae etc. And they were nomads in the same ranges they first started appearing in Western Iran around 900BC as recorded by the Assyrians, gradually they settled [and were used as mercenaries by the Elamites] and later they usurped the existing non-Iranian civilisations like the Elamites, Babylonians and Assyrians.

Map of Scythian tribes:

 

Their migration was very similar to the Turkic migrations.  You know Seljuk, empire? You know how it started?  At first they were being used as mercenaries by the Iranic Samanid and the Arabic Abbasid Dynsties, eventually they seized power from the Samanids and turned the Abbasids into a puppet state.  During and before the period of the Samanids most of Central Asia was Iranic, that is why most of the city names are Iranian, such as Balkh, Bukhara, Samarqand etc.  The people of these areas at that time constituted the descendedants of Scythians.

Read this link below, you will notice at the bottom there are sources for the information in this article. 

http://www.iranchamber.com/history/articles/scythians_sacae.php - http://www.iranchamber.com/history/articles/scythians_sacae. php

I am not trying to steal Scythians/Sarmatians/Alans from Turkic history and if every credible source of information said that they were Turkic or proto-Turks I wouldn't care, I would just think they were Turks.  But this is not the case.  The fact is that every academic article and book written on the subject states in no uncertain terms that they were Iranic.

You can continue to believe they were Turkic if you wish, I form my belief from the literature of all credible academics/historians.



-------------


Posted By: tadamson
Date Posted: 21-Oct-2005 at 05:38
Originally posted by Janissary

And also

Hence, Alans were a Turk tribe. This fact can also corroborated by that there is a separate tribal group called Alans has remained among the modern Turkmen up to now. The names of these Alan kins are interesting to recall: Mirshi-kar, Boluk-aul , Eshek, Aiak-Char, Kara-mogul, Tokuz, Ker, Belke etc. Alan tribal groups live also in Uzbekistan, Tadjikistan and Altai. Among the Altai tribes, there is a tribal group called "Alandan kelgen ", i. e. "those who came from the plain".
Moreover, the word "alan" conveys the idea of "plain" or "valley" in many Turk languages.
The nearest neighbors of Karachais, Megrelians, refer to Karachais as Alans up to now. No Caucasian nationality uses this ethnonym, except Balkarians and Karachais.(2)

 

It really makes sense I think.



No it doesn't!
We have clear evidence that not only were the Alans Sarmatians, they predate modern Turkish languages.
Nor is it particuarly surprising that modern Alan remnants livng amongst Turkish speakers for 1000 years have Turkish style names.

nb.  Alan for 'low land' is a word taken into many Turkish languages from base Iranian languages. Your article even points out that as is a loan word taken into Turkish from Iranian languages long, long ago.


-------------
rgds.

      Tom..


Posted By: Temujin
Date Posted: 21-Oct-2005 at 15:44
IIRC, Alans are Massagets + Sarmatians.

-------------


Posted By: Janissary
Date Posted: 21-Oct-2005 at 19:33

Then why Karachays turkish says that they are Alans?

Why Osetins says the same thing and does that means that they both the same?



-------------


Posted By: tadamson
Date Posted: 23-Oct-2005 at 20:25
Originally posted by Janissary

Then why Karachays turkish says that they are Alans?

Why Osetins says the same thing and does that means that they both the same?



Don't you get bored trolling ?


-------------
rgds.

      Tom..


Posted By: Anbalan
Date Posted: 24-Oct-2005 at 13:15
Originally posted by Janissary

Tell me, were they not TURKISH??????????????

Thanks for inviting me here. I am Ossetian and have maybe more detailed point of view ror Alans. I think they were Iranian. I tell some simple fondations my point is based on.

1. Center of Noth Caucasus was last strongholds of Alans. The most late information about them is from there. By most geographic documents the theritory of late Alania conside with theritory of modern Ossetia. Only accurate geographic landmark of country of Alans is Darialan, the Gates of Alans, (Darial Gorge) is in Ossetia.

2. All Georgian historians associate Alans with "Osi" (Asi) who are Ossetians. Georgian historical documents have no links to "Alans", but reffer to "Osi".

3. Armenian History, 7th. The historian count tribes of Caucasia and mentions "people of Alans, Ashtigor. Behind Digors also live Alans...". The source accurately calls As-Digor as country of Alans and Digors as Alanian people. Digors are minor Ossetian sub-nation.

4.  Zelenchuk incription - only long Alanian text. The inscription is written in Digor Ossetian. I can disscuss it, translate it as clear Digorian. No Turkish translation I have seen yet. 

5. As Alans called themself "AAs" I see only Ossetians has "As" cults in respect to other Caucasus nations. Even now Ossetians put "as" particle to names (Example: As-Temur, Batr-az, Totr-az, Roman-az, Dzer-assa, Tajmur-as, Part-as... there are several dozens of such names).

Those are my simple but quite strong arguments. Can you give me so simple and strong arguments why Alans would be Turks?



Posted By: Anbalan
Date Posted: 24-Oct-2005 at 13:33
Originally posted by Zagros

He says that Alans called themselves "As" - how does he know that? He does not cite any source.

That is how they called themself. There are many sources - Velgelm de Rebrook, Al-Biruni, Al - Masudi, and several others. I hove some links but they are in Russian translation. De Rebrook wrote Alans called themself "AAs". It is rather matches Ossetic phonetics than Turkish. In Ossetian "A" is very long and "AE" is very short. Digor Ossetians tell the country where they are from is As-Digora. My gender is from Asi, as we still remember where we came from. Digor people call Asi modern Balkaria also. However by DNA investigation Balkarians are genitically Digorians and have MtDNA well matches Iranian type (as I understood). I have article http://www.netrover.com/~rous1/cauc.pdf - http://www.netrover.com/~rous1/cauc.pdf  about the research, but I am not so good in the subject.



Posted By: Anbalan
Date Posted: 24-Oct-2005 at 13:45
Originally posted by Janissary

Then why Karachays turkish says that they are Alans?

Why Osetins says the same thing and does that means that they both the same?

I believe they were same nation in past. As I wrote Balkarians match Digor Ossetians by genes, by family names, by culture. Georgian historian and geographer Vachushti Bagrationi (18-th century) wrote about Balkaria (Basiani) as part of Ossetia in past. There are more difference between other Ossetians and Karachays.



Posted By: Zagros
Date Posted: 24-Oct-2005 at 13:57

Thanks for the clarification bro, I always wondered why Georgians called Alans Ossetian. Also do you know about the Alans who settled in the Zagros? They are known as Alans still but their language has changed to Kurdish.

By the way, have you heard of Dr Kaveh Farrokh? He is an Ossetian/Alan scholar specialising on Iranic culture, empires and people. I think I heard that he is a professor at Vancouver Uni.



-------------


Posted By: Anbalan
Date Posted: 24-Oct-2005 at 15:11
Originally posted by Zagros

Thanks for the clarification bro, I always wondered why Georgians called Alans Ossetian. Also do you know about the Alans who settled in the Zagros? They are known as Alans still but their language has changed to Kurdish.

By the way, have you heard of Dr Kaveh Farrokh? He is an Ossetian/Alan scholar specialising on Iranic culture, empires and people. I think I heard that he is a professor at Vancouver Uni.

No, unfortunately I am not familiar with his work. But you surprised me about Alans in Zagros. Do they still have their language? I haven't heard, but I would like to know more. I would appreciate if could give me some links where to find more. Actually the European Alans may be different as I think the name Alans were quite general covering different tribes maybe of different origin. Maybe the European Alans are the real and last Alans. Those Alans of Caucasia are might not be the real "Alans" but "Asi". I also do not know why Georgians do not have the term Alan but they are the most source of information about Alans. It also might be the late Alans differ from the early ones. I know more about Caucasia and I know too little about other places.



Posted By: Janissary
Date Posted: 24-Oct-2005 at 22:47

ok, so I gess that there are 2 nations there

Karachays and Balkars, And Balkars were more clother to Osetins

Am I right?

Ok, I guess I agree with u that Alans were Iranian, but I think that they were not Persian

Thank u



-------------


Posted By: Anbalan
Date Posted: 25-Oct-2005 at 07:47
Originally posted by Janissary

ok, so I gess that there are 2 nations there

Karachays and Balkars, And Balkars were more clother to Osetins

Am I right?

Ok, I guess I agree with u that Alans were Iranian, but I think that they were not Persian

Thank u

Yes, you are right. Balkars as I believe were Ossetians of Digor tribe. As I understood there is no anthropological and genetically difference between Digors and Balkars. Even family names have same origins. I would say Balkars were assimilated by maybe some Turks (maybe Bolgars, Nogays, etc.) recently. They still keep Digorian way to count (Digorians count by two ways: by tens and by twenties). Iron Ossetians little differs from Digors and Balkars anthropologically and genetically. South Ossetians are more different. Karachays are completely different by Mt-DNA from Iranians and Caucasians.  However there is still question about origins of Karachays. Those are difficult questions. All Ossetian nations, Balkars and Karachays are anthropologically aborigines of Caucasia (only Iron Ossetians little differ). Alans, I think, were not Persians. Ossetic language is quite distant from Farsi, it is closer to Pushtu and very close to Yagnobi (tribe in Tajikistan). That cause problem to explain origins of Ossetians by any other way unless Alans.

 



Posted By: Zagros
Date Posted: 25-Oct-2005 at 09:33

Yes, Alani language is of the Eastern Iranian branch and Persian is of the Western branch, there would have been a time 3-4 thousand years ago (perhaps longer) when the Iranian tribes (Medes/Scythians/Persians etc) separated and started to develop independently and form their modern derivatives today such as Alans/Ossetians, Pashtus, Tajiks, Kurds, Baluch, Persians, Tats/Talysh.

Alans in Kurdistan:

Race

Kurds are now predominantly of Mediterranean racial stock, resembling southern Europeans and the Levantines in skin, general coloring and physiology. There is yet a persistent recurrence of two racial substrata: a darker aboriginal Palaeo-Caucasian element, and more localized occurrence of blondism of the Alpine type in the heartland of Kurdistan. The "Aryanization" of the aboriginal Palaeo- Caucasian Kurds, linguistically, culturally and racially, seems to have begun by the beginning of the 2nd millennium BC, with the continuous immigration and settlement of Indio-European-speaking tribes, such as the Hittites, Mitannis, Haigs, Medes, Persian, Scythians and Alans. The process was more or less complete by the beginning of the Christian era, by which time the Kurds had absorbed enough Iranic blood and culture, particularly Median and Alan, to form the basis physical typology and cultural identity.

http://www.knn.u-net.com/kurd4.htm - http://www.knn.u-net.com/kurd4.htm

I first heard about the Alan presence after mentioning the Alans of Caucasus to an Iraqi Kurdish friend and he said there is a Kurdish tribe called Alan who are descended from ancient migrants living there.

This is all i could find on the internet, but i will see if I can get more information for you (books, etc).  Do you have pictures of Alans in traditional dress and can you describe any unique festivals and the traditional music?



-------------


Posted By: Anbalan
Date Posted: 25-Oct-2005 at 10:46
Originally posted by Zagros

I first heard about the Alan presence after mentioning the Alans of Caucasus to an Iraqi Kurdish friend and he said there is a Kurdish tribe called Alan who are descended from ancient migrants living there.

This is all i could find on the internet, but i will see if I can get more information for you (books, etc).  Do you have pictures of Alans in traditional dress and can you describe any unique festivals and the traditional music?

Thank you for interesting information. It might be true. There is very little information about Alans in any accurate descriptive way. From all information it is very difficult to tell anything about what belongs to Alans and what is adopted from other nations. I think modern Ossetians have very little culture elements from Alans. Dress and architecture and folklore are rather local Caucasian influence. However the mythology goes very long time ago and I would say it is almost only source, which could carry some elements from culture of Alans. There are few tales also about prehistoric migration. About dress I could not be be so descriptive. I couldn't find anything from internet. There are some dress samples in museums, but I cannot describe details. 



Posted By: Nagyfejedelem
Date Posted: 25-Oct-2005 at 13:20
Alans really were Iranians and they contolled not only the Northern Caucasus but the Eastern European steppe until the Hun invasion of Balamber. Alans were defeated and some tribes would became the vassal or allied of the Huns and many years later assimilated into their. Other tribes escaped with the Ostrogoths and Vandals. These Alans settled in the North-East of Spain (Catalonia was called Goth-Alania) and in Northern Africa. After Belisarius defeated Vandals, Emperor Justinianus had a title of 'King of Vandals and Alans'. Alans, who stayed in the Caucasus were called Alans or Ass during the Middle Ages. Later the Mongols deported Alans who would became the bodyguard of Chinese 'Emperors. Other Alans settled down in Hungary-they were called Jász's. Nowadays the Ossetians are the inheritors of the Alans.


Posted By: Anbalan
Date Posted: 25-Oct-2005 at 15:18

Originally posted by Nagyfejedelem

Other Alans settled down in Hungary-they were called Jász's. Nowadays the Ossetians are the inheritors of the Alans.

Thanks for comments. I have read a story from Al Garnati [http://vostlit.by.ru/Texts/rus4/Garnati/text1.htm]. It is in Russian translation. There is a paragraph there about Hungary. As I can translate:

///Then I arrived into country of Unkuria (Hungary), and there is a nation there, which is called bashkird (Hungarians), which is first from those, who came from country of Turks and entered into country of franks and they (Hungarians) are brave and there is no count of them (so many). And country of them, which is known Unkuria, consists from 78 cities (provinces). Each of those cities has many fortresses, countries, villages, mountains, gardens. And they live there thousands of "Margibinians" (Pachaniks). And they live there thousands of Chorasmians, which also cannot be counted (so many).///

Are those Chorasmians Alans? Before Al-Biruni also described Asi-Alans as ancient Chorasmians. Is there any written Hungarian historical documents or inscriptions telling about language of Jaszs? Once I read another name for Jaszs - Iassons or Jassons. Digor Ossetians call Balkarians "Asson". I have also read some story about some Ossetians who were hired by Russians during war against Turkey, they could understand "some Hungarians", when they were in Hungary (Russian military reports). Professor Abaev has reffered to some words from Jaszs, which coinside with Digor Ossetian dialect. But I haven't found any details. I would appreciate much if you could give me any information about Jaszs.

 



Posted By: Janissary
Date Posted: 25-Oct-2005 at 23:31

Yeah, And Qumilyov wrot the connections between turks and alans

That is why i thought that may be they're Turkish

hm



-------------


Posted By: Anbalan
Date Posted: 26-Oct-2005 at 07:38
Originally posted by Janissary

Yeah, And Qumilyov wrot the connections between turks and alans

That is why i thought that may be they're Turkish

hm

It is very confusing. There are some sources pointing Alans or part of them were Turks. But those sources are about late Alans, about 13-15 centuries. Some sources confuce Alans with others. Even now you see some descendents of Alans are Turkish (Balkarians and Karachaians). 



Posted By: Janissary
Date Posted: 26-Oct-2005 at 22:39

ok

But if u ganna reat "Tisichiletie vokruq Kaspii"

Then it says everything very good



-------------


Posted By: tadamson
Date Posted: 27-Oct-2005 at 07:48
Originally posted by Janissary

Yeah, And Qumilyov wrot the connections between turks and alans

That is why i thought that may be they're Turkish

hm



There are huge sililarities between the cultures of all the steppe people who practiced pastoral nomadisim.  As such many ancient writers assumed they were all the same, so they refered to a new group in terms of one their readers would have some awareness of (be that Scythian, Saurmation, Hun, Turk etc...).
Add to this that there was little ethnic difference as all tribes deliberately got brides from other tribes (good genetics and diplomacy) and men would take their families to serve under a charismatic leader even if he was of another clan, tribe, race etc...
So you are left with language as a differentiator.  This is difficult to determine as all the Turkish, Mongol and Tinguistic languages are  closely related, all of these share loan words with the Iranian and Tibetan languages, and hardly  any of these people  left written records..

So even for a major group like Attila's Huns we  resort to names of people and places to  make the judgement that they spoke a language that was  probably Turkish !


-------------
rgds.

      Tom..


Posted By: Anbalan
Date Posted: 27-Oct-2005 at 08:18

Originally posted by tadamson

There are huge sililarities between the cultures of all the steppe people who practiced pastoral nomadisim. 

In accordance with Marksism philosophy, leaving conditions form people. That is true. Therefore all nomands look similar, their culture looks similar, features of their appearance and character look similar, but there are still minor differences between them.



Posted By: Janissary
Date Posted: 27-Oct-2005 at 18:11

Huns, all of them, were 100% turkish

I can very easily understand Hun words



-------------


Posted By: Seko
Date Posted: 27-Oct-2005 at 18:23
I call your bluff. Show us your hand Janissary. What are these Hun words you so thoroughly understand?

-------------


Posted By: Janissary
Date Posted: 27-Oct-2005 at 20:44

tenqri--God

Kisi-Human

Turemis-was borned

ulmik-To die

U know Turkish, I think u can understand them, Seko

 



-------------


Posted By: Nagyfejedelem
Date Posted: 31-Oct-2005 at 04:43

Anbalan:

Nation Jász settled down in Hungary during the rule of Bela IV. He settled the Cumans, too. Jász was a privilagion ethnic group (quite smaller than Hungarians and smaller than Cumans) and the capital of them was Jászberény. Jászs until the 15. (maybe the 16.) century spoke theirs own native language but they became Hungarians. Nowadays the inheritors of Jászs live in the county called Jász-Nagykun-Szolnok and they native language is the Hungarian. I heard about a Jász-Hungarian word-book from the 16. century from Jászberény, but I don't know where can I or you see that.



Posted By: Nagyfejedelem
Date Posted: 31-Oct-2005 at 04:54

Jászs mainly settled in Hungary after the Mongol invasion in 1241/42. But Jászs only in the end of the 13. century were in Hungarian documents written in Latin.

And the name of theirs 'land' was Berényszék.



Posted By: tadamson
Date Posted: 31-Oct-2005 at 11:04
Originally posted by Janissary

tenqri--God

Kisi-Human

Turemis-was borned

ulmik-To die

U know Turkish, I think u can understand them, Seko

 



And exactly what evidence do you have that these were Hunnish words ??




-------------
rgds.

      Tom..


Posted By: Rakhsh
Date Posted: 01-Nov-2005 at 18:19
What an interesting topic, well I do not consider Alans Turks, my great great grandfather came from Ossetia and he came to Iran During the Russo-Persian wars, when Cathrine the great took northern Caucas regions and Iranians took it back, etc etc so they fleed the war and the other males fought but hay in the End we are what we want to be. I am Iranian, not Turkish or Russian........

-------------
Never under estimate the predictablity of stupidity! - Bullet Tooth Tony


Posted By: Maju
Date Posted: 01-Nov-2005 at 18:42
Originally posted by Nagyfejedelem

These Alans settled in the North-East of Spain (Catalonia was called Goth-Alania) and in Northern Africa.


Actually Alans settled in Portugal as far as I know. The origin of the name Catalonia is obscure but I have never read before that it could come from Alans (froms Goths yes: Gothia -> Gothalunia, but this is disputed).

In fact the invasion of Sweves, Vandals and Alans passed by Basque lands (they were first repealed and then just they let them pass due to lack of Roman leaders available). I find dificult to consider how could they have reached Catalonia at all if they never passed by that area (probably better defended by the Romans). The only rich area of Iberia held by these tribes was Baetica that was for some time under Vandal control. But Alans and Sweves dominated the less rich lands of the Atlantic. Therefore I guess that Vandals were the most powerful ones of this alliance.


-------------

NO GOD, NO MASTER!


Posted By: Janissary
Date Posted: 01-Nov-2005 at 19:10

So, Portogeese is Iranian country

And I got those words from Lev Gumilyov-Russian researcher-historians book,

And also those words are in Orhon stones



-------------


Posted By: Anbalan
Date Posted: 02-Nov-2005 at 08:43

Originally posted by Rakhsh

What an interesting topic, well I do not consider Alans Turks, my great great grandfather came from Ossetia and he came to Iran During the Russo-Persian wars, when Cathrine the great took northern Caucas regions and Iranians took it back, etc etc so they fleed the war and the other males fought but hay in the End we are what we want to be. I am Iranian, not Turkish or Russian........

My greetings to you, brother! Some of my relatives also emigrated during Bolshevik revolution. I really don't know where the idea of Turkic Alans came from. I think it was idea from professor Zakiev (in http://www.turkicworld.org/ - http://www.turkicworld.org/ ) and professor Miziev. I have read their articles and found quite doubtful arguments.
1. Zelenchuk inscription. Zakiev denies it to be Ossetic with no reason, but his Turkic translation does not have common points with text and it seems odd. However Digor Ossetic translation is an exact match.
2. Miziev says "Georgians called "osi" Karachaians. Georgians know better who are "osi". That sounds just stupid.
3. The both have not given suggestions where the Ossetians are from, if Alans were Turks. They don't care, but we do.
4. Other Turkic historians of Turkish, Kazah or Tatar origin do not know much about history of Caucasia, last stronghold of Alans. They just make references to those ones.



Posted By: Anbalan
Date Posted: 02-Nov-2005 at 08:45
Originally posted by Anbalan

Originally posted by Rakhsh

What an interesting topic, well I do not consider Alans Turks, my great great grandfather came from Ossetia and he came to Iran During the Russo-Persian wars, when Cathrine the great took northern Caucas regions and Iranians took it back, etc etc so they fleed the war and the other males fought but hay in the End we are what we want to be. I am Iranian, not Turkish or Russian........

My greetings to you, brother! Some of my relatives also emigrated during Bolshevik revolution. I really don't know where the idea of Turkic Alans came from. I think it was idea from professor Zakiev (in http://www.turkicworld.org/ - http://www.turkicworld.org/ ) and professor Miziev. I have read their articles and found quite doubtful arguments.
1. Zelenchuk inscription. Zakiev denies it to be Ossetic with no reason, but his Turkic translation does not have common points with text and it seems odd. However Digor Ossetic translation is an exact match.
2. Miziev says "Georgians called "osi" Karachaians. That sounds just stupid. Georgians know better whom they call "osi".
3. The both have not given suggestions where the Ossetians are from, if Alans were Turks. They don't care, but we do.
4. Other Turkic historians of Turkish, Kazah or Tatar origin do not know much about history of Caucasia, last stronghold of Alans. They just make references to those ones.



Posted By: Nagyfejedelem
Date Posted: 02-Nov-2005 at 09:31
Alans had different names: Alan, As, Asi, Asiag, Az, A-su, O(v)s, Yas, Jász and some strange ones: Burtas, Kengeres, Lanikas, Asdigor.


Posted By: tadamson
Date Posted: 02-Nov-2005 at 12:39
Originally posted by Janissary

And I got those words from Lev Gumilyov-Russian researcher-historians book,



Does Lev Gumilyov  say why he thinks those words were part of the Hunnnish languge (nb European Huns, not Xiongnu)?    I ask because I was not aware of any known Hunnic words other than people/place names.


-------------
rgds.

      Tom..


Posted By: Komnenos
Date Posted: 02-Nov-2005 at 13:01
Am I glad I found this thread, so I can say a few words about the Alans and everybody's favourite Germanic tribe, the Vandals.
Somehow, I find the symbiotic relationship between those two tribes with very different ethnic backgrounds quite remarkable.
Having come in contact around 400 AD, the Western Alans and the Vandals formed what we would call in German a "Schicksalgemeinschaft", a partnership born out of the fate that befell them, namely the advancing and unstoppable Huns. From then on they became inseperable, moving further westwards through Europe, living and fighting their way into Spain and from there, in one of greatest logistic undertakings in Medieval history, setting over to Africa to found a shortlived Kingdom and to go down together.
Great stuff for legends.

-------------
[IMG]http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i137/komnenos/crosses1.jpg">


Posted By: Anbalan
Date Posted: 02-Nov-2005 at 13:06

Originally posted by Nagyfejedelem

Alans had different names: Alan, As, Asi, Asiag, Az, A-su, O(v)s, Yas, Jász and some strange ones: Burtas, Kengeres, Lanikas, Asdigor.

Most names, I think, are related to "as". As, Asi, Asiag, Yasz - probably are derived from "as". Asiag - is a person who lives in country of "Asi" in Ossetic (Iron) language. Asdigor - are As-Digor, where Digor is particular Ossetian tribe, a part of "Asi" nation. Digors say they are from country of Asi. It also might be Digor was a Caucasus local tribe assimilated by Alans (Asi). Ovs and Os (Osi) are actually different names. Historically Georgians confused Alans (Asi) with Ovsures, a tribe lived in Darial Gorge (Gates of Alans). Later the Ovsures were assimilated by Ossetians (Osi, i.e. Asi). As the two names sound almost the same, it was maybe reason for confusion. I cannot tell anything about the other names you listed.



Posted By: Zagros
Date Posted: 02-Nov-2005 at 14:04

The following by Dr Kaveh Farrokh, himself an Ossetian (Alan). 

Anbalan, it gives a little information on Alans in Iran (Kurdistan), : "Ard-Alan"

Pan-Turanian activists simply state that all peoples who have ever existed in Central Asia, and the Steppes of Russia and the Ukraine have always been Turkish. With this simple and blanket statement, all ancient non-Turkic steppe peoples such as the ancient Cimmerians, Scythians/Saka, Sarmatians and Alans have been retroactively Turkified. The Scythians/Saka are now taught as having been among the “early Turks” and that Queen Tomeris (Georgian “Tamar”; European “Tamara”) was a “Turkish warrior queen”. These theories also form part of the overall claim to many parts of Russia and Ukraine as being part of the greater “Turan”.

Russian, Ukrainian, Polish and western scholars have overwhelmingly rejected these theories: modern scholarship overwhelmingly attests to the Iranian origin of the aforementioned peoples. The fact that Northern Iranian peoples spoke Iranian languages is as evident as the ancient Athenians having spoken Greek. The descendants of the North Iranian peoples, the Ossetians (see National Geographic photos below), speak an old North Iranian language (Ir-On and Digor) related to Persian and Kurdish. Turkish has no linguistic connection to modern Ossetian.

 

Alans-A Alans-B]

 

Ossetian is a term of Russian and Georgian origin. The Ossetians refer to themselves as “Ir-On” a variation of the term “Ir-An” (land of Aryans). “Ir” and/or “Eire” are the old Iranic, Indic and Celtic designations of “Aryan” (Noble, Lord). Ossetian historians, who acknowledge their Iranian heritage, explain their migration to Northern Georgia as a tactic of survival in the face of multitudes of Turkish, Hun and Mongol conquests that rummaged across Eurasia over the centuries.

Many of these Northern Iranians escaped and/or migrated to Persia and Europe to avoid annihilation or extermination at the hands of Turkic, Hun and Mongol invaders over the centuries. Their descendants live in Iranian Kurdistan (known formerly as Ard-Alan), Luristan (Sak-Vand) and Seistan (Saka-istan). None speak any Turkic languages or bear any affinities to Asiatic Turkic peoples. The aforementioned Persian Shahnama epic of Firdowsi recalls the Northern Iranian legends, and the desperate battles fought against the Turkic-Hun-Mongol invaders.

The original Turkic invaders were Asiatic, very similar to the Uralo-Altaic inhabitants of modern Korea, Northern China, and Japan (see Barnes in references and Part II, item 7). In contrast to the ancient Turks, The Northern Iranians (see reconstruction by Angus McBride Below – see Newark in references) are described by western scholars as follows:

Scythians and Sarmatians were of Iranian origin

[John Channon & Robert Hudson, Penguin Historical Atlas of Russia, 1995, p.18 – see references]

Indo-European in appearance and spoke an Iranian tongue which bought them more closely to the Medes and Persians

[Tim Newark, Barbarians, 1998, p.6 – see references]

 “The Sarmatians…spoke an Iranian language similar to that of the Scythians and closely related to Persian

[Richard Mariusz & Richard Mielczarek, The Sarmatians: 600 BC-450 AD, 2002, p.3 -see References]

Saka

 

Western scholars examining the anthropology, archaeology and linguistics of the Scythians/Saka, Sarmatians and Alans have long since determined their membership as being firmly within the Iranian family (see Abaev, Bachrach, Brzezinski, & Mielczarek, Melyukova, Sulimirski in References). The late professor of Sarmatian and Alan studies, Tadeusz Sulimirski (1898-1983) stated that the Northern Iranians were:

…of Indo-European stock belonging to…the Iranian group, often called the Scythian group of peoples…they were akin to the ancient Medes, Parthians and Persians. Their language was related to that of the Avesta

[Tadesuz Sulimirski, The Sarmatians, London: Thames & Hudson, 1970, p.22]

The Avesta is used in Zoroastrian prayers, and is the ancestor of modern Ossetian. The river names, “Don”, “Donets”, “Dnieper” and “Dniester” are all of Iranian origin (see P.J. Mallory in References – Mallory’s map on p. 78 shown below):

Don/Danu = Water, River

Dnieper [Dana Apara] = the upper (old North Iranic = Apara) River

Dniester [Danu Nazdaya] = the near (old North Iranic = Nazdaya – Persian Nazdeek) River

The closest relative to the Iranic Don/Danu is the Celtic “Danuvius”, whose modern name is known as the “Danube” in Western Europe. Roman emperor Marcus Aurelius also settled Sarmatian warriors in Britain (e.g. modern Chester), where their Iranian mythology and culture appears to have influenced much of the local Celtic folklore (see Littleton & Malcor and Rankin in References).

Map Alan

 

 

 

Many Iranian words can be found in Slavic languages; either because they are both of the Satem branch of Indo-European languages or because of a long period of Iranic ascendancy on the steppes (see Gamkrelidze & Ivanov in References). Persian style words persist in many Slavic languages; examples include Mokry (wet) and Bogh (God). Much of the Slavic counting system is similar to modern Persian:

 

Slavic

Iranian

English

Dva

Do

Two

Chetyeri

Chahar

Four

Pianja

Panj

Five

Shest

Shesh

Six

Sot/Sotka

Sat/Sadh

Hundred

 

Perhaps of greatest importance is the role of the Northern Iranians as one of the three Aryan founding peoples of the Achaemenid Persian Empire. Scythians are the only peoples, besides the Medes and the Persians who were allowed to carry ceremonial daggers at Persepolis – note the photo of a Saka Tighrakhauda (pointed-hat Scythian) with a Mede (see Pyankov and Vogelsang in References – photo in Farrokh, p.4, see references): 

 

Saka Mede

 

 

Of equal importance is the Northern Iranian role in transmitting much of the arts, culture and architecture of Persia to both Europe, and the Far East, particularly to the Chinese and the Uralo-Altaic ancestors of the Turks and Koreans (Hsiang-Nou, Tueh-Chi, etc.). The oldest Persian carpet has been found in Pazyryk (see photo below) – the woman most likely represents an early representation of the Iranian goddess of fertility (Anahita or Tabid-Vesta)

http://www.rozanehmagazine.com/NoveDec05/AzarbayeganPart1.html - http://www.rozanehmagazine.com/NoveDec05/AzarbayeganPart1.ht ml



-------------


Posted By: DayI
Date Posted: 02-Nov-2005 at 14:22

nice article tough.



-------------
Bu mıntıka'nın Dayı'sı
http://imageshack.us - [IMG - http://www.allempires.com/forum/uploads/DayI/2006-03-17_164450_bscap021.jpg -


Posted By: Nagyfejedelem
Date Posted: 02-Nov-2005 at 15:10

Anbalan:

I wrote somewhere that Georgians used Os instead of As and 'ethi' is a Georgian word and means 'land'.

Perhaps some Alan groups assimilated into the Huns, but Huns were the first Turkish empire in Europe and Alans lived in there before them. So, Alans had the last Iranian empire in the Eastern European steppe. Many years laters Ossetians had a relation with the Turkish-speaker Balkars. Balkars lived in an Alan territory (Asi) so they were called after that Asiags.



Posted By: Anbalan
Date Posted: 02-Nov-2005 at 15:41
Originally posted by Nagyfejedelem

Anbalan:

I wrote somewhere that Georgians used Os instead of As and 'ethi' is a Georgian word and means 'land'.

Perhaps some Alan groups assimilated into the Huns, but Huns were the first Turkish empire in Europe and Alans lived in there before them. So, Alans had the last Iranian empire in the Eastern European steppe. Many years laters Ossetians had a relation with the Turkish-speaker Balkars. Balkars lived in an Alan territory (Asi) so they were called after that Asiags.

I think it is correct. There are some interesting details. Balkars very closely related to Digor Ossetians. Digors call Balkaria "Asi" and Balkarians are "Asson". Iron Ossetians call Balkarians "Asiag". The difference between "on" and "ag" is that "on" is for very closely related groups of people. So I think it means Iron Ossetians never considered Balkars to be close, but Digors did. Digorian older people say their genders came from land of "Asi", but they think it was Balkarija always and they think their ancestors were Balkarians.  But they do not know why languages are different.



Posted By: Temujin
Date Posted: 02-Nov-2005 at 16:20

Originally posted by Komnenos

Am I glad I found this thread, so I can say a few words about the Alans and everybody's favourite Germanic tribe, the Vandals.
Somehow, I find the symbiotic relationship between those two tribes with very different ethnic backgrounds quite remarkable.
Having come in contact around 400 AD, the Western Alans and the Vandals formed what we would call in German a "Schicksalgemeinschaft", a partnership born out of the fate that befell them, namely the advancing and unstoppable Huns. From then on they became inseperable, moving further westwards through Europe, living and fighting their way into Spain and from there, in one of greatest logistic undertakings in Medieval history, setting over to Africa to found a shortlived Kingdom and to go down together.
Great stuff for legends.

As i mentioned previously, the Alans were slaughtered as a whole by the Vandals in Spain, before the Vandals set over to Africa.



-------------


Posted By: Komnenos
Date Posted: 02-Nov-2005 at 17:09
Originally posted by Temujin

Originally posted by Komnenos

Am I glad I found this thread, so I can say a few words about the Alans and everybody's favourite Germanic tribe, the Vandals. Somehow, I find the symbiotic relationship between those two tribes with very different ethnic backgrounds quite remarkable. Having come in contact around 400 AD, the Western Alans and the Vandals formed what we would call in German a "Schicksalgemeinschaft", a partnership born out of the fate that befell them, namely the advancing and unstoppable Huns. From then on they became inseperable, moving further westwards through Europe, living and fighting their way into Spain and from there, in one of greatest logistic undertakings in Medieval history, setting over to Africa to found a shortlived Kingdom and to go down together. Great stuff for legends.



As i mentioned previously, the Alans were slaughtered as a whole by the Vandals in Spain, before the Vandals set over to Africa.



Then you were completely wrong twice.

The Alans and the Vandals remained best of friends till the bitter end.

The Alans that had settled in in the Iberian peninsula were kind of decimated by the Visigoths that pushed the Vandals and Alans south and finally over to Africa. The surviving Alans went with the Vandals to establish their kingdom in Northern Africa. After the death of their last king in Spain, the title was offered by the Alans to the Vandal king, Gaiseric's predecessor who after that called himself "King of the Vandals and Alans".

-------------
[IMG]http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i137/komnenos/crosses1.jpg">


Posted By: Rakhsh
Date Posted: 03-Nov-2005 at 04:57
Originally posted by Anbalan

Originally posted by Rakhsh

What an interesting topic, well I do not consider Alans Turks, my great great grandfather came from Ossetia and he came to Iran During the Russo-Persian wars, when Cathrine the great took northern Caucas regions and Iranians took it back, etc etc so they fleed the war and the other males fought but hay in the End we are what we want to be. I am Iranian, not Turkish or Russian........

My greetings to you, brother! Some of my relatives also emigrated during Bolshevik revolution. I really don't know where the idea of Turkic Alans came from. I think it was idea from professor Zakiev (in http://www.turkicworld.org/ - http://www.turkicworld.org/ ) and professor Miziev. I have read their articles and found quite doubtful arguments.
1. Zelenchuk inscription. Zakiev denies it to be Ossetic with no reason, but his Turkic translation does not have common points with text and it seems odd. However Digor Ossetic translation is an exact match.
2. Miziev says "Georgians called "osi" Karachaians. Georgians know better who are "osi". That sounds just stupid.
3. The both have not given suggestions where the Ossetians are from, if Alans were Turks. They don't care, but we do.
4. Other Turkic historians of Turkish, Kazah or Tatar origin do not know much about history of Caucasia, last stronghold of Alans. They just make references to those ones.

Hay brother  I have always been fascinated with this part of my history, often I drink with my Russian friends and they talk about how they defeated the Germans I talk about how my family have fought the Russians for almost 150 years  I think this whole movement to call Alans Turks is part of this movement of Pan Turanaism that is sweeping across the land threating our common Histories and trying to claim our achievements and glory as thiers. http://www.rozanehmagazine.com/NoveDec05/AINTRODUCTION.HTML - http://www.rozanehmagazine.com/NoveDec05/AINTRODUCTION.HTML

Check this link out it will tell you all about Pan-Turanism



-------------
Never under estimate the predictablity of stupidity! - Bullet Tooth Tony


Posted By: Rakhsh
Date Posted: 03-Nov-2005 at 05:06
Originally posted by Temujin

Originally posted by Komnenos

Am I glad I found this thread, so I can say a few words about the Alans and everybody's favourite Germanic tribe, the Vandals.
Somehow, I find the symbiotic relationship between those two tribes with very different ethnic backgrounds quite remarkable.
Having come in contact around 400 AD, the Western Alans and the Vandals formed what we would call in German a "Schicksalgemeinschaft", a partnership born out of the fate that befell them, namely the advancing and unstoppable Huns. From then on they became inseperable, moving further westwards through Europe, living and fighting their way into Spain and from there, in one of greatest logistic undertakings in Medieval history, setting over to Africa to found a shortlived Kingdom and to go down together.
Great stuff for legends.

As i mentioned previously, the Alans were slaughtered as a whole by the Vandals in Spain, before the Vandals set over to Africa.

dude sorry but your wrong on that note

-------------
Never under estimate the predictablity of stupidity! - Bullet Tooth Tony


Posted By: Nagyfejedelem
Date Posted: 03-Nov-2005 at 11:10

Komnenos:

Justinianus also had the title of 'King of Vandals and Alans' after 534. So this title survived the Vandals, too.



Posted By: Komnenos
Date Posted: 03-Nov-2005 at 12:57
Originally posted by Nagyfejedelem

Komnenos/P]

Justinianus also had the title of 'King of Vandals and Alans' after 534. So this title survived the Vandals, too.



I suppose he took the title after The Vandal Kingdom was destroyed by Belisarius. Common practise for rulers to take on the crowns of countries they had conquered. As the current Habsburg pretender, Otto von H. AFAIK, is the titular Byzantine Emperor, maybe he is also the King of the Vandals and Alans.

-------------
[IMG]http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i137/komnenos/crosses1.jpg">


Posted By: Anbalan
Date Posted: 03-Nov-2005 at 13:19

Originally posted by Rakhsh

 Hay brother  I have always been fascinated with this part of my history, often I drink with my Russian friends and they talk about how they defeated the Germans I talk about how my family have fought the Russians for almost 150 years  

My gender, Guluta, believe they are descendents from Gulu (Kulu), one of two brothers died fighting Tamerlan. Those two brothers, Gulu and Tauas, had fortresses in mountains in Balkaria (near Elbrus mount). The both genders (Guluta and Tauasta) consider themselves as brothers even now. My grandma, mother of my father, is from "aldars". Aldars were kind of kings. They fought Russians but they were defeated and later they served tsars and made good military career. My grand grandpa was a colonel and he fought Japanese in Manchuria in 1905 and was granted the Georgian Cross (the top medal) and silver sword from the tsar Nicolas. He fought Turks in Armenia in WW-I. When revolution started he fought communists. Most Ossetians were on tsar side, but they lost civil war and they had to emigrate. Brothers of my grandma escaped to Turkey and they served Turkish army. During international war they fought Turks as enemies, they killed many Turkish soldiers, but they were accepted with great honor as good and loyal warriors. I heard from grandma they made good military career in Turkey, but I do not know anybody of their grandchildren. Sisters were married and they stayed in Ossetia.



Posted By: Temujin
Date Posted: 03-Nov-2005 at 14:51

but there recently was a documentary thats howed how Gaiseric betrayed the Alans who were supposed to ally with Suebs in NW Iberia an slaughtered them wholly, and only then took over the title king of Vandals and Alans, and frankly, it wouldn't make sense at all the Alans would designate Gaiseric their king.

 

a Tunisian archaelogist was looking for traces of Vandals culture in todays norhtern africa, she did indeed found Vandals but no signs of alans were to eb found.s econdly, after the reconquest fo the west, no mention was given of the Alans. fact is, Alans never made it to Africa.



-------------


Posted By: Anbalan
Date Posted: 03-Nov-2005 at 15:31
Originally posted by Temujin

a Tunisian archaelogist was looking for traces of Vandals culture in todays norhtern africa, she did indeed found Vandals but no signs of alans were to eb found.s econdly, after the reconquest fo the west, no mention was given of the Alans. fact is, Alans never made it to Africa.

 How would he distinguish Alans from Vandals? There are very few descriptive features of the both tribes, as I understood.



Posted By: Komnenos
Date Posted: 03-Nov-2005 at 15:45
Okay, as you know, I'm on a crusade to clear the Vandals name and restore their reputation, so the matter of the relationship between Vandals and Alans is close to my heart.
I've looked everywhere now, books and net, and there isn't a single source that mentions that the Alans fell victim to the Vandals on the Iberian peninsula. In fact there is universal agreement, that there wasn't a single conflict between the two tribes ever since they left Pannonia together in 400 AD.
And more, every source states that the last Western-Alan King Attaces fell in battle against the Visigoths in 426, two years before Gaiseric's accession btw., together with a large part of his tribe, and that the few remaining Alans sought refuge with the Vandals, offered their leader Gunderic their crown and virtually merged, voluntarily and peacefully with their Germanic friends.
After their common transit to North-Africa, distinctive Alan cultural elements disappeared as the Vandals were, for simple numerical reasons, the dominant element of their partnership.
There is hardly a mystery about all this.
That's the common denominator of all sources I could find, but I would be grateful, if you could provide some alternative ones that would shed a different light on the whole topic.

-------------
[IMG]http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i137/komnenos/crosses1.jpg">


Posted By: Temujin
Date Posted: 04-Nov-2005 at 14:22

Originally posted by Komnenos

After their common transit to North-Africa, distinctive Alan cultural elements disappeared as the Vandals were, for simple numerical reasons, the dominant element of their partnership.
There is hardly a mystery about all this.

are you kidding me? normal is that two cultures merge, look at India (Ordu language, mixture of Turko-Persian words an Hindu grammar). the complete dissapearing of one culture under another leads only to one conclusion...

and what the hel is this Vandals crusade about anyways? in my opinion Vandals reputation is well deserved and i don't see any reason to debunk any myths. don't forget that todays history books are more or less based on the opinion and research of 19th century nationalists historians, thats why Charlemagne the Butcher is a hero in France and Germany.



-------------


Posted By: Scytho-Sarmatian
Date Posted: 05-Nov-2005 at 04:31
Yeah, how do you explain Charlemagne?


Posted By: Rakhsh
Date Posted: 06-Nov-2005 at 07:00
Originally posted by Temujin

Originally posted by Komnenos

After their common transit to North-Africa, distinctive Alan cultural elements disappeared as the Vandals were, for simple numerical reasons, the dominant element of their partnership.
There is hardly a mystery about all this.

are you kidding me? normal is that two cultures merge, look at India (Ordu language, mixture of Turko-Persian words an Hindu grammar). the complete dissapearing of one culture under another leads only to one conclusion...

and what the hel is this Vandals crusade about anyways? in my opinion Vandals reputation is well deserved and i don't see any reason to debunk any myths. don't forget that todays history books are more or less based on the opinion and research of 19th century nationalists historians, thats why Charlemagne the Butcher is a hero in France and Germany.

Turkish words??? Give an example please of Turkish words in Hindi langauge

-------------
Never under estimate the predictablity of stupidity! - Bullet Tooth Tony


Posted By: kotumeyil
Date Posted: 06-Nov-2005 at 10:18
He probably mentions the Babur Empire times, but I don't have further info.

-------------
[IMG]http://www.maksimum.com/yemeicme/images/haber/raki.jpg">


Posted By: Zagros
Date Posted: 06-Nov-2005 at 12:30
I think their language was wholly Persian, even though they were Turkomen.

-------------


Posted By: Rakhsh
Date Posted: 06-Nov-2005 at 20:14

See I agree with you Zargos, I just want there claims of Turkish words and Turkism to have backing and not someone thinking it soo.

Since our Turkish cousins wish to claims things I want backing and also by non turkish sources too.

Sorry if I seem to be baiting I am not, I just want people to back things up.



-------------
Never under estimate the predictablity of stupidity! - Bullet Tooth Tony


Posted By: Seko
Date Posted: 06-Nov-2005 at 22:55

The Moghals of Babur's time spoke in Chagatay Turkish, prayed in Arabic and were literate in Persian. -Nicholas Osler, Empires of the Word.



-------------


Posted By: Rakhsh
Date Posted: 07-Nov-2005 at 00:22
Can you give me the link or source please Seko, thanks

-------------
Never under estimate the predictablity of stupidity! - Bullet Tooth Tony


Posted By: Seko
Date Posted: 07-Nov-2005 at 08:13
I'm not sure about an internet link. The reference I provided is from the book I mentioned above.

-------------


Posted By: Temujin
Date Posted: 07-Nov-2005 at 15:36

Originally posted by Rakhsh

Turkish words??? Give an example please of Turkish words in Hindi langauge

I'm talking about Urdu, not Hindi

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urdu_language - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urdu_language



-------------


Posted By: Akskl
Date Posted: 27-Nov-2005 at 00:43
I would recommend to read - Rene Grousset "The Empire of the Steppes - A History of Central Asia"  Rutgers University Press.
pp.72-79. The Huns in Europe: Attila.


Posted By: Alparslan
Date Posted: 27-Nov-2005 at 11:54

Originally posted by Rakhsh

Turkish words??? Give an example please of Turkish words in Hindi langauge

Take a look at this article. It says there are thousands of Turkic words in Indian....

CONTRIBUTION OF TURKIC LANGUAGES IN THE EVOLUTION AND DEVELOPMENT OF HINDUSTANI LANGUAGES

K.Gajendra Singh

http://www.cs.colostate.edu/~malaiya/turkish.html - http://www.cs.colostate.edu/~malaiya/turkish.html

 

 



Posted By: Akskl
Date Posted: 27-Nov-2005 at 13:02
My uncle had a very thick book - "Turkisms in Russian Language" - it had thousands and thousands of very widely used Russian words (origination of part of them were under question though).

Also there is a very interesting book, also in Russian - N.A.Baskakov "Russian Family Names (or Surnames) of Turkic Origin". Very many famous Russians have Turkic origin - their ancestors came from the Steppe to serve Russian Tzars, for example (from my memory): famous writers - Tolstoys clan, Turgenevs, Kuprin, Karamzin (historian), Artzybashev, military commanders - Kutuzov (who defeated Napoleon), Suvorov (who fought against Ottoman Turks, and also killed many Noghays, who did not earlier  join Kazakhs as part of Kishi Juz or Smaller horde - that was a real genocyde, very few of them survived hiding in Northern Caucasus), Ushakov (who destroyed Turkish navy),  Kolchak (hero of Civil War who fought against Bolsheviks in Urals and Siberia),  famous scientists - Beketov, Beklemishev, Timiryazev,  politicians - Arakcheyev,  and many many others, I just can't remember.  


Posted By: Socrates
Date Posted: 29-Nov-2005 at 03:44

You forgot(or I missed it) that Serbs and Croats were also originally(or at least it's very possible) Alans-Ptolemy(or Pliny) mentions Serboi and Choroates near Caucasus.Now,I read in a different thread that ''Sorb'' means 'gray' in Persian,and that Alans wore gray.If u look at the medieval maps of Poland and east Germany u will find that Sorbi and Surpi are mentined a few times;arabian geographer from 10. century mentions Belochrobates(white Chroats) on Vistula(Poland).Aprox. at 7th century part of Serbs and Chroats settled in the Balkans;polish Croats(white Croats were absorbed by the Poles,and Sorbs(Lusatian Serbs or as the Germans call them-Wends)was conquered by the Germans in11. century,but they kept their identity until today-although  their numbers decreased.

I should mention that these Alans were assimilated by the Slavs-all that is left are their original names(majority of todays Serbs-and as I hear -Croats consider themselves Slavs).

Very interesting-Cyrus in original(Persian) is appaerently Kourosh,while Urosh is a very common name in Serbia(name of one of our kings).

Plese correct me if I made some errors(or if there's anything more to say on the subject).

 



Posted By: Zagros
Date Posted: 29-Nov-2005 at 06:11

Kurosh is Cyrus, you are right, the reason it is pronounced Cyrus (Syrus) is because of the Romans, who pronounced the C as S and the Greeks who coulldn't pronounce sh (Š).

Greek: Kyrus ; Anglo-Roman: Cyrus ; Iranian: Kurosh



-------------


Posted By: Cent
Date Posted: 29-Nov-2005 at 07:51
There is a region in Kurdistan called Alan, does this have anything to do with the Alans?

-------------
They don't speak enough about the Kurds, because we have never taken hostages, never hijacked a plane. But I am proud of this.
Abdul Rahman Qassemlou


Posted By: Zagros
Date Posted: 29-Nov-2005 at 10:42
Yes it does, the full name is Ardalan. ALans settled there.

-------------


Posted By: Cent
Date Posted: 29-Nov-2005 at 15:34
Yeah, that was also a emirate, Ardalan. Thanks for confirming by the way Zagros.

-------------
They don't speak enough about the Kurds, because we have never taken hostages, never hijacked a plane. But I am proud of this.
Abdul Rahman Qassemlou


Posted By: Anbalan
Date Posted: 30-Nov-2005 at 08:11

Originally posted by Zagros

Yes it does, the full name is Ardalan. ALans settled there.

By Armenian historical sources king Artashes, a Parthian ruler, married Alanian princess Satenik. It is also known that many Alans loyal to parents of Satenik were welcomed by Artashes and given some land to settle. They named the place as "Artas, the name of land where they came from". By another Armenian source the original land of Alans, located in North Caucasia on river Armna (Terek) bank called "Ardos" (Armenian Geography, 7AC). I see some connections between "Ardalan" and "Ardas" as Alans called themselves "As(i)". However it confuses me because I thought "Ardos" has meaning "meadow" as it is in modern Ossetic. However it might be another meaning from "Art" (fire) or "Ard" (oath). Where the place "Ardalan" is located? Could it be the same land mentioned as "Ardas" which was given to Alans by Artashes?



Posted By: kotumeyil
Date Posted: 30-Nov-2005 at 13:53
My family is from Erzurum-Horasan and there is a village called "Ardos" there. Probably it was a former Armenian village...

-------------
[IMG]http://www.maksimum.com/yemeicme/images/haber/raki.jpg">


Posted By: Anbalan
Date Posted: 30-Nov-2005 at 14:54

Originally posted by kotumeyil

My family is from Erzurum-Horasan and there is a village called "Ardos" there. Probably it was a former Armenian village...

It might be.  I have not found enough descriptive information where the Alans settled. It could be somewhere in modern Turkey, Armenia or northern Iran. There is also information about other group of Alans who were hired by Vizantia to fight Turks in Erzurum area in about 14 BC.  



Posted By: tadamson
Date Posted: 01-Dec-2005 at 05:52
Lots of Alans settled in Brittany (NW France).

There are so many groups of Alans in the historical record that some scholars feel it necessary to point out that the links betwee the various groups are often very tenuous.


-------------
rgds.

      Tom..



Print Page | Close Window

Bulletin Board Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 9.56a - http://www.webwizforums.com
Copyright ©2001-2009 Web Wiz - http://www.webwizguide.com