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Anglo Saxons

Printed From: History Community ~ All Empires
Category: Regional History or Period History
Forum Name: Medieval Europe
Forum Discription: The Middle Ages: AD 500-1500
URL: http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=6189
Printed Date: 25-Apr-2024 at 16:08
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Topic: Anglo Saxons
Posted By: HistoryGuy
Subject: Anglo Saxons
Date Posted: 13-Oct-2005 at 17:04

Are the Angles, and Jutes Vikings. In this map they seem to come from Denmark. Saxons from around the area of modern Netherlands.



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هیچ مردی تا به حال به شما درباره خدا گفته.



Replies:
Posted By: Maju
Date Posted: 13-Oct-2005 at 17:32
They are not Vikings because the concept of Viking belongs to a later date. But they are no doubt ethnically close and, in fact, in DNA tests it's almost impossible to diferentiate if Britons have Anglo-Saxon or Danish-Viking ascendance, when they have it.

The map is correct, though I don't think that Frisians played any role in that migration. Saxons are actually from the historical region of Saxony in Germany (modern Niedersaxen plus Westfalen), Angles came from Schleswig-Holstein (also mostly Germany) and Jutes came from the peninsular part of Denmark (Jutland). These last were surely the minor element, as they are normally only related to Kent, while Saxons and Angles conquered to much larger areas.

Anyhow, that area of Lower Germany is ethnically very close to Denmark and Germans are ultimately original from there (Lower Germany and Scandinavia). Middle and Upper Germany were originally Celtic territory but Germans took them in the last centuries before our age. Their expansion was still going on when Caesar intervened in Gaul, partly because Germans were disturbing the Helvetians.

Modern German, standarized after Luther's Reform, is Upper German, so it's more diferent from English than Frisian or Danish.


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NO GOD, NO MASTER!


Posted By: Cywr
Date Posted: 13-Oct-2005 at 18:33
though I don't think that Frisians played any role in that migration.


Some of them (saxons?) came from the area where Frisians now live, and with in the Germanic family, English and Frisian are the closest relatives.


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Arrrgh!!"


Posted By: Maju
Date Posted: 13-Oct-2005 at 19:03
Originally posted by Cywr

though I don't think that Frisians played any role in that migration.


Some of them (saxons?) came from the area where Frisians now live, and with in the Germanic family, English and Frisian are the closest relatives.


I don't doubt that Frisian is closely related to English but did historical Frisians actually formed part of the Germanic migration into Britain? It is the first time I read about it. It would seem logical from their geographical situation but you always read Angles, Saxons and Jutes, no Frisians anywhere. Can you explain?

Are Frisians a subdivision of Saxons? Of Angles? They appear already in all historical maps, as soon as times in which there might be no reference on them at all, for instance in this of year 1 CE:



But they are commonly mentioned in early Medieval maps anyhow, like this of the year 500:



But they never seem to play any role is in British conquest.


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NO GOD, NO MASTER!


Posted By: HistoryGuy
Date Posted: 13-Oct-2005 at 20:50

What did England look like in the 11th century? I recently bought an Anglo Saxon sword guard from the 11th century. It was found in Suffolk 2003. Could it be Viking? Here is a picture:



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هیچ مردی تا به حال به شما درباره خدا گفته.


Posted By: Maju
Date Posted: 14-Oct-2005 at 04:25
Probably archaeological remains of British Anglo-Saxons and Danish Vikings are rather diferent. But I can't say much more. 

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NO GOD, NO MASTER!


Posted By: Cywr
Date Posted: 14-Oct-2005 at 07:04
The Angeli in particular and to a lesser extent the Saxons had virtualy the same language as the Frisians.

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Arrrgh!!"


Posted By: HistoryGuy
Date Posted: 14-Oct-2005 at 15:41
Does anyone know about my sword guard?

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هیچ مردی تا به حال به شما درباره خدا گفته.


Posted By: Quetzalcoatl
Date Posted: 15-Oct-2005 at 01:52

 

 The anglo-saxons were only a minority on the british isles, they were later displaced by the normans, bretons and Franks who became the ruling minority. Britian remains mostly celtic racially.



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Posted By: Maju
Date Posted: 15-Oct-2005 at 04:37
Racially? 

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NO GOD, NO MASTER!


Posted By: tadamson
Date Posted: 15-Oct-2005 at 06:51
Originally posted by HistoryGuy

Does anyone know about my sword guard?


Do you have any provenance for it?

The style isn't Anglo-Saxon or Viking, without provenance my guess would be late 17th C.


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rgds.

      Tom..


Posted By: Reginmund
Date Posted: 15-Oct-2005 at 13:46
Originally posted by Quetzalcoatl


The anglo-saxons were only a minority on the british isles, they were later displaced by the normans, bretons and Frankswho became the ruling minority. Britian remains mostly celtic racially.



Y'know, Quetzal, I've been reading your posts in several threads, and I've reached one conclusion; you're celtophile, man.

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Posted By: Maju
Date Posted: 15-Oct-2005 at 16:09
And he likes to repeat the word race like if it would have some meaning. Specially, when talking about a Celtic race... Celts come from southern/western Germany: their original type should be more Germanic (Alpine?) and less Atlantic. As Celtic culture and language spread through a very wide region from Portugal to Turkey, Celts obviously got mixed with the locals that they invaded once and again. So talking of a Celtic race is an oxymoron. 

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NO GOD, NO MASTER!


Posted By: Exarchus
Date Posted: 15-Oct-2005 at 16:27
Yet, the Anglo-Saxons were more a minority and a ruling class indeed. Yet they intermixed with the local people.

This didn't happen with the Normans/Franks/Bretons who not only squatted the place but made a lot of mess up there.


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Vae victis!


Posted By: Kuu-ukko
Date Posted: 16-Oct-2005 at 12:52
Quetzalcoatl, London Univeristy College made a sutdy a few years ago comparing British, Danish, Norwegian and German y-chromosomes. It was found out, that all of the 1700 tested British men had Anglo-Saxon/Viking ancestry. Also, about 60% of the male population of the Scottish Isles had Norwegian blood, while people more south had Anglo-Saxon and Danish blood. So basically, the Germanic people who came to modern England weren't just a ruling minority, but a mass-migration more like?


Posted By: tadamson
Date Posted: 17-Oct-2005 at 07:52
Originally posted by Kuu-ukko

Quetzalcoatl, London Univeristy College made a sutdy a few years ago comparing British, Danish, Norwegian and German y-chromosomes. It was found out, that all of the 1700 tested British men had Anglo-Saxon/Viking ancestry. Also, about 60% of the male population of the Scottish Isles had Norwegian blood, while people more south had Anglo-Saxon and Danish blood. So basically, the Germanic people who came to modern England weren't just a ruling minority, but a mass-migration more like?


The study tested for a specific genetic trait that is common in modern Norway and thus assumed to be a tag for 'Norwgian'  the fact that it is found to be common in Scotland, England and Frisia could also mean that the assumption was wrong..

Genetics is a science that has to be carefully interpreted.


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rgds.

      Tom..


Posted By: beorna
Date Posted: 04-Dec-2007 at 13:36
It is said that Saxons, Anglian and Jutes came to Britain. If you look at maps like abouve you'll get the impression they sailed right across the northern sea an settled everyone in their own region. This is completely wrong. The most group sailed along the coast and settled in the Netherlands, the coast of Belgium and France. From there they sailed to Britain. These groups appear as saxons. But this is just a term for a unknown group of germanc tribes. So you have Saxones Eutii but Eutii, you have Saxon kouadoi and Saxon Ambrones but also Ambrones... So if you have Essex, Wessex and Sussex you can be sure that the germanic people there did not only came from Lower Saxony and the people in the Anglia territories didn't come only from the german region of Anglia. There were people we call Old Saxons, Anglians, Frisians, Franks, Ambrones, Jutes and more. Probably there were even people from Skandinavia wo joined Britain, if you look at Sutton Hoo e.g.


Posted By: Paul
Date Posted: 04-Dec-2007 at 14:01
Very interesting, I was wondering what actual contemporary evidence (EG: physical evidence, not writings 300 years later) there is of the Germanic tribes settlement in post Roman Britain.

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Posted By: Reginmund
Date Posted: 04-Dec-2007 at 16:54
Amateur historians are very fond of saying "this was so!", when in fact the Anglo-Saxon settlement of Britain is a highly disputed matter and not in any way set in stone. There are two main theories (with slight variations between scholars): one; the Anglo-Saxons imposed themselves as a small ruling elite over the Romano-British, and two; the Anglo-Saxons genocided and drove away the natives on a large scale, and more or less resettled the land, while the Romano-British were confined to the western and northern fringes.

One of my old profs from Oxford, whose specialty was linguistics, was a firm believer in the latter theory, as ruling elites that are not seen as culturally superior nearly always adopt the language of the conquered, and it is hard to imagine the Romano-British would have considered the Anglo-Saxons culturally superior. This is of course a strictly linguistic approach to the problem, but even as a historian I have difficulties arguing against it.

James Campbell supports the theory in his book "The Anglo-Saxons".

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Anglo-Saxons-Penguin-History-James-Campbell/dp/0140143955 - The Anglo-Saxons on Amazon

Other good books on the topic are F.M. Stenton's old but massive "Anglo-Saxon England" and Peter Blair's more accessible "An Introduction to Anglo-Saxon England". Both of them are standard works at university courses.

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Posted By: beorna
Date Posted: 04-Dec-2007 at 17:31

Well, Reginmund, but then you have to explain why the Turks in Turkey don't speak Greek or the Slavs on the Balkans don't do speak Greek, why do the English don't speak French. I don't think it is as simple as that. There was no intact Roman civilisation in Britannia. If it would be so, we had to expect an Roman speaking Wales and Cornwall  today. But we havn't. Perhaps one cause is that the people in Britain at those times were neither Romans nor Celts. So they were lacking of an common integration figure after the Romans left the island. When the Saxons came they didn't wipe out all the Britains  as soon as possible. It lasts till the beginning or the middle of the 7th century untill they overruled the British kingdoms exept Wales and Cornwall. And it was as least only possible because there were several waves of Germnanic groups that moved to Britain over decades or centuries. There were definitely no mass invasion but no genocide as well.



Posted By: Brian J Checco
Date Posted: 04-Dec-2007 at 17:55
I was under the impression that as successive waves of Saxons, Angles and Jutes landed on the Eastern and Southern shores, they pushed the Britons back by a slow yet largely successful series of campaigns that took place over around 60-70 years, and as they captured territories, either enslaved or drove off the British inhabitants, resettling the lands with their own families and forming their own settlements and towns. As time went on, the British found themselves holding lands in Wales, Cornwall, and Strathclyde, Rheged, and the other northern British kingdoms. Then again, I'm just an amateur historian.


Posted By: Reginmund
Date Posted: 04-Dec-2007 at 17:58
Originally posted by beorna

There were definitely no mass invasion but no genocide as well.


Sigh.

I never said the theory was absolute, and neither is your theory; this is a disputed matter.

There is no definite case either way, and as such the word "definitely" doesn't belong in this debate. Many scholars do in fact support the notion that it was a genocide and widescale expulsion of Britons (see Campbell's book), which we must relate to if we are to do this properly. Even if one would rather believe the scholars who hold the opposing view (for whatever reason), a historian cannot dismiss conclusions with sourcless blanket statements just because he happens to find these theories unappealing. This is basic historical method.

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Posted By: Paul
Date Posted: 04-Dec-2007 at 22:41
I often wonder how the 3 big invading tribes, Angles, Saxons and Gepids got along with one another.

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Posted By: Reginmund
Date Posted: 04-Dec-2007 at 23:08
Gepids? Jutes you mean? The Gepids were the ones who crushed Hunnic supremacy in eastern Europe after Attila's death.

I once saw a map depicting the lands possessed by Saxons, Angles and Jutes respectively at the end of their migration. The Angles got the northern half of modern England more or less, (Mercia and Northumbria), while the Saxons got the southern half (East Anglia, Wessex, Sussex), and the Jutes were confined to some narrow fringe settlements. The amount of land most likely reflects the scale of their respective migrations. I can't say for sure with the Jutes and Saxons, but archaeological excavations show that the homeland of the Angles in what is now southern Denmark/northern Germany was massively depopulated in this period (source is "The Early Germans" by Malcolm Todd), which also speaks in favour of genocide and large-scale expulsion of the Britons, as there wouldn't be enough free land to acommodate these settlers elsewise.

If you want to examine the relationship between the different tribes you can look at the history of these settlements in the early Anglo-Saxon period. As for their relationship during the migrations, that's a bit tougher to say much about since the source material is scanty and what we do have is fraught with source critical ambiguities.

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Posted By: Paul
Date Posted: 05-Dec-2007 at 01:43
Gepids invaded a little after the Angles, killed all the Angles.

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Posted By: Reginmund
Date Posted: 05-Dec-2007 at 01:59
Originally posted by Paul

Gepids invaded a little after the Angles, killed all the Angles.


Yes, now I remember. The Gepids were then followed by the Goths, who mostly left the Gepids alone but killed all the Pauls.

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Posted By: beorna
Date Posted: 05-Dec-2007 at 10:38
Don't mess with me because of the word 'definitely'. Sure there was an expulsion of Britons but a mass expulsion? Do you have knowledge about material that can make it sure? Yes, there was an migritation/expulsion of Britons to Gaul, but why? Were it the common people or was it the elite of the Britons? You're right that in continental Anglia about 450 we won't find archaeological device for a population. But we don't know where they've gone to. We find Anglians at the Rhine, in Thuringia and in Bitain. So how many went to what region? In the coastal region of Lower Saxony there is a device of emigration too. And there are a lot of devices that people from wider parts of Germany moved to Britain, but there are also saxones who emigrated to the Dutch, Belgian and French channel coast or even the French Atlantic coast. There are even saxones eutii mentioned in Italy with the Langobards. So how many Saxons went to Britain? If there is no sure device for a mass expulsion, we should't expect that the celtic population just changed their ethnic status.
 
 


Posted By: beorna
Date Posted: 05-Dec-2007 at 10:48
Brian, the saxons came as mercenaries. They were "working" for a lot of British kings. They fought for them against other British kings, against other germanic groups and sometimes they fought for their own interests. It took decades before the saxones became quite powerful. But it was not an easy road for them to conquer Britain. The Britons often stroke back. So Elmet, Brynneich and Rheged were very powerful in the North and even in Wessex there was a standstill for a decade and more. It was a long time from 410 to nearly 650 before the Britons (as political power) were expelled from later England.


Posted By: Paul
Date Posted: 05-Dec-2007 at 11:29
Originally posted by Reginmund

Originally posted by Paul

Gepids invaded a little after the Angles, killed all the Angles.


Yes, now I remember. The Gepids were then followed by the Goths, who mostly left the Gepids alone but killed all the Pauls.
 
No the Paul's just migrated to France, expelled all the French from France, they moved to Germany pushing the Germans into Poland. This is why the Germans are French.


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Light blue touch paper and stand well back

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http://www.toltecitztli.co.uk - http://www.toltecitztli.co.uk


Posted By: Reginmund
Date Posted: 05-Dec-2007 at 12:17
Originally posted by beorna

Don't mess with me because of the word 'definitely'.


I'm just debating, I'm not trying to insult you or pick a fight. I was merely pointing out how you shouldn't make such bombastic claims about something which is highly disputed and uncertain.

Originally posted by beorna

Sure there was an expulsion of Britons but a mass expulsion? Do you have knowledge about material that can make it sure?


I mentioned the books by James Campbell and Malcolm Todd.

Originally posted by beorna

Yes, there was an migritation/expulsion of Britons to Gaul, but why? Were it the common people or was itthe elite of the Britons?


That's one the things we don't have sources enough to say for sure, hence the debate.

Originally posted by beorna

You're right thatin continental Anglia about 450 we won't find archaeological device for a population. But we don't know where they've gone to. We find Anglians at the Rhine, in Thuringia and in Bitain. So how many went to what region?


Well, you could put two and two together here.

Originally posted by beorna

If there is no sure device for a mass expulsion, we should't expect that the celtic population just changed their ethnic status.


Might very well be. Make no mistake; I'm not saying the genocide/expulsion theory is correct, merely that is a theory, and one that I personally find the most reasonable. If I said for sure there was genocide and expulsion, or that for sure there wasn't, that's when I'd be on thin ice (or no ice at all if we are to be strict with historical method here).

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Posted By: beorna
Date Posted: 05-Dec-2007 at 13:33
If terms like genocide or mass expulsion are given in a discussion, then I fear this is a very modern way of thinking. I know this kind of debate from Cesar's war in Gaul. No known germanic tribe or gens did ever commit such genocide. Well, I agree with you when you say there are facts that say the Britons left their lands in the east. But it is the question whether they left it or were expelled. We clearly have semi-desertion of the cities. But one cause of it was the destruction of the infrastructure. Not only in Britannia but also in Gaul (Visigoth, Franks, Alamanni) and even in Italy the times were unsafe. That gave influence to the trade and so on.
 
Sorry, I don't understand your "put two and two together". The Anglian region on the continent is very small, even if all of them emmigrated to Britain they weren't enough. But I don't want to be unfair. Of course nobody knows what gentes moved to Britain with the Anglians. If the Anglians were just the leading group there could be enough invaders for the theory of expelling the Britons.
 
You mentioned that a higher developed nation wouldn't speak the language of its invaders or non or less-developed invaders would start to speak the language of the higher developed population. I asked you why Turks, Slavs (and Britains) don't follow these theory. I also told you my opinion and the connection with the British-Saxon history. What do you think about it?


Posted By: Reginmund
Date Posted: 05-Dec-2007 at 15:40
Originally posted by beorna

If terms like genocide or mass expulsion are given in a discussion, then I fear this is a very modern way of thinking.


Yes, we probably aren't dealing with a systematic genocide in the modern sense, but a genocide can happen nonetheless.

Originally posted by beorna

You mentioned that a higher developed nation wouldn't speak the language of its invaders or non or less-developed invaders would start to speak the language of the higher developed population. I asked you why Turks, Slavs (and Britains) don't follow these theory. I also told you my opinion and the connection with the British-Saxon history. What do you think about it?


Turks and Slavs? That's a bit unspecific, those are umbrella terms which refer to a great many peoples across many regions and periods.

The Slavs did however generally retain their mother tongue wherever they went, most likely because there were a great many of them, enough for them to settle in an area without being assimilated culturally. The Slavs mainly settled in primitive regions as well (Russia, Poland, Bohemia). An exception would be their settlement in Byzantine lands, but their linguistic impact here was limited to the more primitive northern Balkans, where Byzantine influence was weak and Slavonic languages are still spoken today (Bulgaria, Macedonia, Croatia, Serbia and so on), and I presume not the settlers in Greece and Thrace, where Slavonic languages are not spoken today (this is way out of my field of expertise though).

If you look at peoples who subjugated Slavs and ruled them as minority elites; the Bulgarians (believed to be Turkic) and Scandinavians f.ex. were assimilated linguistically and culturally, while the Magyars and Germans (Teutonic Knights) kept their own tongue. It's hard to keep track of the myriad of variables in play that brough these developments about, but the latter at least tended to see the Slavs as pagans and sub-humans. The Magyars' language is too shrouded in mystery to say much about.

As for the Turks, they generally assimilated in the civilised regions they conquered. The Turks in the west assimilated into the Islamic-Iranian culture (Seljuks), the ones in the Balkans assimilated into Slavonic culture (Bulgarians), the Turks in the east assimilated into Chinese culture, and so did the Mongols when they conquered China. The Ottomans however did retain their language, one could argue this was because they did not see themselves as culturally inferior to the European kingdoms in the 1300s or Mamluk Egypt in the 1500s.

Other examples are the Franks in Gaul, who were assimilated, the Goths in Iberia were as well, and the Lombards in Italy; all of these conquered areas that were culturally superior, that were Roman. The Anglo-Saxon conquest of Britain proved an exception to the rule, and this needs to be explained.

Also, if you look at regions conquered by the Romans, the ones that assumed Latin as their language were invariably the culturally inferior ones (Gaul, Iberia), while the more advanced cultures in the east retained Greek as the lingua franca, which replaced Latin as the official language in the 7th century AD.

The Arabs make for a curious case, as even though they were not extremely primitive, they were still culturally inferior to the Romans. Here the unique factor of Arabic as the language of the Prophet and the Quran is believed to have had a profound impact on the spread of the Arabic language.

In Latin America Spanish and Portuguese largely replaced the languages of the natives, who were undeniably seen as culturally inferior to the Europeans. The same goes for northern America, where English and French replaced native tongues in the same way.

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Posted By: Tyranos
Date Posted: 05-Dec-2007 at 15:59
Calling the English language "Germanic" is an over simplification I think, as it has many Latin, Briton, Italian, French, Gallo-Norman and even Arabic/and Persian words in its vocab. English also has been written using the Latin Alphabet  since around the ninth century.

The Celts of course didnt come from Southern Germany, after all, the Celts were first identified by classical writers in Southwestern, not Central Europe, and that is where their languages survived to this day.
There is  though a current controversy over if the British National idenity, with them being  Natives or replaced by "Viking" conquerors.

According to geneticist Brion Sykes(among some other authors), says that the British were left largely untouched genetically by the Germanics, and were peopled from either France or Iberia some 6,000 years ago. 
 
 While the author Stephen Oppenheimer(along with some others) suggests that the Anglo-Saxons imposed apartheid  in Britain, and thus exterminated the native Celts and Romano-Britons.



PS

Oppenheimer also suggests that the Celts originaly came from the Eastern Mediterranean, which I think lends more support the Proto-Indo-European origins in Anatolia/Asia Minor and the IE origins in Southern Europe.

The idea that the Celts were drawn from the same dispersal out of the Euro-Mediterranean Basin explains the commonalities between Celtic/Gallic and Italic languages; it also harmonizes with the relative lack of DNA "signals" that would link the inhabitants of Western Europe with those of Central Europe. It fits quite well into the emerging picture of Indo-European dispersals out of Southern Europe, with Italo-Celts being responsible for maritime pioneer colonization across the northern Mediterranean, Germanics being responsible for northward movements from Central European descendants of the Linearbandkeramik, and Balto-Slavs derived from northeastern movements of the Bronze Age which brought Corded Ware type people into contact with the Finno-Ugric substratum of eastern Europe.

The Book of the Irish also claims that the people that arrived from to Britain and Ireland by originally coming from Asia Minor, Greece, Italy and Iberia...one tribe even North Africa.
 



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Posted By: beorna
Date Posted: 05-Dec-2007 at 16:14

sorry, my fault. I meant the Slavs on the Balkans and the Turks in Turkey. I we look first at the Balkans. I don't think the Balkans were less Romanized/Hellenized than Britannia. So the cultural level was there higher than those of the Slavs. They even went to Greece where then Greek was spoken only in little parts and the cities. A Re-Hellenisation stroke back later. So to say it was just only an invasion into a more primitive northern area doesn't seem correct.

The same we have in Asia minor. You say one could argue that they didn't see themselves inferior. Perhaps. But one can argue that way anyway. There are enough reason to argue that the Roman-Greek culture was higher than those of the Turks.

Than you mentioned the Arabs. Their culture wasn't higher, their population wasn't bigger but they succeeded. You're right. This was  the islam, I have no doubt.  And something like this is what I believe happened in Britannia. The Britons weren't completely Romanized. Perhaps only the upper classes were. The rest was more or less celtic. When the Romans left Britannia great parts of the upper classes left the land with them. The rest of the Britons had no identification point. So they just changed their ethnicity after the invasion. This is the same effect as in the Balkans or in Asia minor.


Posted By: Reginmund
Date Posted: 05-Dec-2007 at 20:46
Originally posted by beorna

sorry, my fault. I meant the Slavs on the Balkans and the Turks in Turkey. I we look first at the Balkans. I don't think the Balkans were less Romanized/Hellenized than Britannia. So the cultural level was there higher than those of the Slavs.



Indeed. Which leads me to believe the Slavs settled in great numbers. The Byzantines did not try to impose Greek on them but on the contrary invented a new alphabet that was more suited for expressing the phonology of the Slavonic langugaes, for the purpose of giving them a Bible in Slavonic. Surely the Byzantines would not have bothered with this had the Slavs been but a small elite.

Originally posted by beorna

The same we have in Asia minor. You say one could argue that they didn't see themselves inferior. Perhaps. But one can argue that way anyway. There are enough reason to argue that the Roman-Greek culture was higher than those of the Turks.



Controversial, especially in the late middle ages when there wasn't much left of Byzantine empire.

Originally posted by beorna

The Britons weren't completely Romanized. Perhaps only the upper classes were. The rest was more or less celtic. When the Romans left Britannia great parts of the upper classes left the land with them. The rest of the Britons had no identification point. So they just changed their ethnicity after the invasion. This is the same effect as in the Balkans or in Asia minor.


I agree that this is what happened in Asia Minor. It's also possible that Roman culture did not penetrate very deep in British society, and that by the time of the Anglo-Saxon invasions the average Briton was not much different from when Claudius first conquered the island. This does not however mean that the Anglo-Saxons represented a higher level of civilisation to the British, indeed it still remains to be explained why Old English supplanted the British tongue if the Anglo-Saxons were but a small elite.

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Posted By: beorna
Date Posted: 06-Dec-2007 at 08:54

Suddenly there is coming a question to me. I don't know if anybody can answer it. I know that on the Balkans islands of Roman language were assimilated very late and even in Germany there were such islands of slavian language and one is still alive. Does anybody know if in England Brytonic was alive till the late medieval or later?

But now to your last question, Reginmund. How can we explain why Old English supplanted the British tongue if the Anglo-Saxons were but a small elite? I think it is very difficult to know how many saxones came to Britain. We don't know how many lived before the invasion in Germania. If we look on other gentes we see that there mostly didn't move more than 100.000. I do believe that it was a great group of saxones that came to Britannia and not only a small elite, but the cause for the supplanting was not a "genocide". It was the breakdown of the Romano-British elite and it's migration to Gaul that weakend the Britons identity and wiped out then the Romano-Briton world in Endland..



Posted By: Temujin
Date Posted: 06-Dec-2007 at 22:45
Originally posted by Tyranos


The Celts of course didnt come from Southern Germany, after all, the Celts were first identified by classical writers in Southwestern, not Central Europe, and that is where their languages survived to this day.



what do you mean with "of course"? it is a well-established fact. do you question the existence of the Hallstatt and La Tene cultures? also, where in "southwest europe" (iberian peninsula??) are there still celtic language speakers? Confused


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Posted By: beorna
Date Posted: 11-Apr-2008 at 23:33
Originally posted by Tyranos

Calling the English language "Germanic" is an over simplification I think, as it has many Latin, Briton, Italian, French, Gallo-Norman and even Arabic/and Persian words in its vocab. English also has been written using the Latin Alphabet  since around the ninth century.
In German there are a lot of Roman words too. There are Greek words, Franch words, there are even Arabian, Iranian, Indonesian and Inuit words in German. Nevertheless is German a Germanic language. It's the same with English.

The Celts of course didnt come from Southern Germany, after all, the Celts were first identified by classical writers in Southwestern, not Central Europe, and that is where their languages survived to this day.
There is  though a current controversy over if the British National idenity, with them being  Natives or replaced by "Viking" conquerors.
Temujin told you, that the Celts are connected with the La-Tene and from some with Hallstatt.

According to geneticist Brion Sykes(among some other authors), says that the British were left largely untouched genetically by the Germanics, and were peopled from either France or Iberia some 6,000 years ago. 
 
 While the author Stephen Oppenheimer(along with some others) suggests that the Anglo-Saxons imposed apartheid  in Britain, and thus exterminated the native Celts and Romano-Britons.
And for what we decided now? Both can't be right.


 


Posted By: Odin
Date Posted: 16-Jun-2008 at 05:07
There certainly was no mass genocide or expulsion of Britons, a fact confirmed by genetics. According to Brian Sykes only Y chromosome samples from Kent and parts of East Anglia show have genetic markers similar to those in NW Germany, Frisia, and Jutland in large numbers. The Britons weren't exterminated, they were absorbed.

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"Of the twenty-two civilizations that have appeared in history, nineteen of them collapsed when they reached the moral state the United States is in now."

-Arnold J. Toynbee


Posted By: pebbles
Date Posted: 17-Feb-2009 at 04:45
Originally posted by Odin

 
The Britons weren't exterminated, they were absorbed.
 
 
Agree wholeheartedly,it's most likely scenario. 
 
Otherwise how do you explain Old English ( used by Anglo-Saxons ) diverged to a language unintelligible to modern German speakers except for a few words like " father " & " land " that sound close to Germanic pronunuciation.
 
 


Posted By: edgewaters
Date Posted: 17-Feb-2009 at 04:54
Originally posted by pebbles

Otherwise how do you explain Old English ( used by Anglo-Saxons ) diverged to a language unintelligible to modern German speakers except for a few words like " father " & " land " that sound close to Germanic pronunuciation.
 
 

Old English is no more intelligible to a modern German speaker.



Posted By: beorna
Date Posted: 17-Feb-2009 at 08:38
Old High German and Middle High German are unintelligible for the most modern Germans too.


Posted By: Styrbiorn
Date Posted: 17-Feb-2009 at 10:09
Originally posted by beorna

Old High German and Middle High German are unintelligible for the most modern Germans too.

Same goes for Scandinavians and Old Norse as well.


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 14-Mar-2009 at 08:03
Very interestingSmile


Posted By: Alkibiades2
Date Posted: 30-Mar-2009 at 17:54
Rather ironic that the Normans, who wrested England from the Anglo-Saxons in 1066. were also of fairly recent Scandinavian origin!

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Semper ubi sub ubi ubique


Posted By: Jams
Date Posted: 30-Mar-2009 at 19:33
Did the Angles and Saxons perish, as someone said? I doubt that very much. Maybe the A/S nobility did (I doubt even that), but the regular people? If they were so completely integrated at that time, it sounds doubtful.
Could a relatively small invading Norman force exterminate all A/S people? Hardly, and why would they want to. There were Danish settlers too, who came later than the A/S, so genetic tests can't really say which people they really originate with, as there are the same lineages in Normandy, Denmark, "Angles" presumably, Norway, and perhaps from even earlier Celtic like people who may have migrated to Britain. Genetic tests don't really tell much, because all those people were related somehow.


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Posted By: Alkibiades2
Date Posted: 30-Mar-2009 at 19:42
Oh goodness no! The Normans merely wrested the kingship away from the Saxon Harold Godwinson, they would never have dreamed of exterminating the Saxons! And there's no way they could have done so even if they had wanted to (which they didn't). No, the Normans simply took their place as England's ruling aristocracy after William of Normandy's defeat of Harold at Hastings, in 1066.

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Semper ubi sub ubi ubique


Posted By: Reginmund
Date Posted: 31-Mar-2009 at 09:23
Exterminating the Anglo-Saxons would've meant killing the entire population of England.

Like Alkibiade2 says the Anglo-Saxon elite was replaced. The Domesday Book shows that within twenty years of the conquest the English ruling class had been almost entirely dispossessed and replaced by Norman landholders, who also monopolised all senior positions in the government and the Church.

What the Normans did manage to more or less exterminate was the elite culture of the Anglo-Saxons. The conquest marked a cultural shift where a Germanic elite was replaced with a Latinized elite from the Frankish world. The nobility now spoke French instead of English, had names like Robert and Guillame instead of Edmund and Wulfsige, they fought on horseback with lances instead of on foot in shieldwalls, and ruled from castles as the lords of serfs rather than from longhouses as the somewhat more egalitarian lords of free farmers.

The picture wasn't wholly black and white though, as some aspects of Anglo-Saxon culture lingered and were even adopted by the Normans. William the Conqueror remembered how he struggled against the Anglo-Saxon shieldwalls during Hastings and made use of these himslef following the conquest as anti-cavalry troops, and young Norman noblemen would (controversively) adopt Anglo-Saxon fashions.

Anglicization was an ongoing process, particularly during the HYW when anything associated with France became less and less politically correct. Edward III was the first to adress the parliament in English, by the end of the century the royal court had switched too. French was marginalised and the rulers of England were English once again (for simplicity's sake I say English instead of Old/Middle English, French instead of Old French/Anglo-Norman and so forth).


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Posted By: Alkibiades2
Date Posted: 31-Mar-2009 at 15:34
Yes, the transition from Anglo-Saxon England to Norman England, and eventually to an England in which rulers were seen by the populace as truly "English" and not transplanted Frenchmen, is fascinating. 19th-century novelists like Sir Walter Scott make a great deal about conflicts between disenfranchised Saxons and their Norman rulers, and as romanticized as those stories are, there was no doubt a great deal of ill feeling on the part of the dispossessed Anglo-Saxon nobility in the late 11th and early 12th centuries.
 
Even after the conquest of England the Normans (themselves of Scandinavian ancestry) did not lose their wanderlust. Many headed to the Mediterranean. They were active in the First Crusade. They served as mercenaries in Byzantium. They conquered Sicily, establishing a capital in Palermo, and their great stone castles still stand in the northern part of the island. Fascinating.


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Semper ubi sub ubi ubique


Posted By: Constantine XI
Date Posted: 31-Mar-2009 at 22:26
Originally posted by Alkibiades2

Yes, the transition from Anglo-Saxon England to Norman England, and eventually to an England in which rulers were seen by the populace as truly "English" and not transplanted Frenchmen, is fascinating. 19th-century novelists like Sir Walter Scott make a great deal about conflicts between disenfranchised Saxons and their Norman rulers, and as romanticized as those stories are, there was no doubt a great deal of ill feeling on the part of the dispossessed Anglo-Saxon nobility in the late 11th and early 12th centuries.
 
Even after the conquest of England the Normans (themselves of Scandinavian ancestry) did not lose their wanderlust. Many headed to the Mediterranean. They were active in the First Crusade. They served as mercenaries in Byzantium. They conquered Sicily, establishing a capital in Palermo, and their great stone castles still stand in the northern part of the island. Fascinating.


It should be pointed out that the Normans completed their Sicilian campaigns and their service in Byzantium before the Battle of Hastings. That they went on Crusade is only typical for a West European member of Christendom, even tiny Scotland managed to send bands of nobles on Crusade. Once established in their kingdoms of England and the southern half of Italy, they finally had wars and homes of their own which absorbed their wandering folk.


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Posted By: Reginmund
Date Posted: 01-Apr-2009 at 10:03
Originally posted by Alkibiades2

Yes, the transition from Anglo-Saxon England to Norman England, and eventually to an England in which rulers were seen by the populace as truly "English" and not transplanted Frenchmen, is fascinating. 19th-century novelists like Sir Walter Scott make a great deal about conflicts between disenfranchised Saxons and their Norman rulers, and as romanticized as those stories are, there was no doubt a great deal of ill feeling on the part of the dispossessed Anglo-Saxon nobility in the late 11th and early 12th centuries.


One has to pity the Anglo-Saxons. I always admired capable organizers and Anglo-Saxon England was one of the most unified, well-organized kingdoms in Western Europe during the dark ages, while continually plagued by predatory invasions. Granted, England wouldn't have been unified under Wessex in the first place had it not been for the Viking conquest in the 860s and it could be argued that foreign pressure provided an incentive for organization which otherwise wouldn't have been conceived of, but even so it's sad to see such a determined, long-term effort at building a state cut short with one battle.

Originally posted by Constantine XI

It should be pointed out that the Normans completed their Sicilian campaigns and their service in Byzantium before the Battle of Hastings. That they went on Crusade is only typical for a West European member of Christendom, even tiny Scotland managed to send bands of nobles on Crusade. Once established in their kingdoms of England and the southern half of Italy, they finally had wars and homes of their own which absorbed their wandering folk.


One thing has always puzzled me about the Normans. Following Rollo's establishment of Normandy in 911 the Normans seem to have gathered a lot of momentum, continually expanding their influence and defeating all comers. In the 11th century the Normans seem near invincible, whether fighting in France, England, Italy or on the First Crusade. Then we reach the 12th century and the Normans seem to taper off somehow. Norman England, Norman Italy and the Principality of Antioch were all influential states, no doubt, but they lacked that seeming Norman invincibility of the previous century and enjoyed only varying success against their adversaries.

Just look at how the Normans won every battle against the Turks during the First Crusade, even against overwhelming odds, but then following the turn of the century they start losing; the battle of Melitene in 1100, where Bohemund was captured, and the decisive defeat at the battle of Harran in 1103. Likewise in Italy, where the Normans previously had enjoyed continuous success, Roger II of Sicily suffered two great defeats at Nocera and Rignano in 1134 and 1137 respectively. The same in Britain; at the battle of Crug Mawr in 1136 the Welsh decisively defeat the Normans. Also gone is that drive to seek their fortune in far away lands.

The 11th century was the Norman century, but by the 13th they were irrelevant.


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Posted By: Dacian
Date Posted: 01-Apr-2009 at 13:28
Originally posted by Alkibiades2

Oh goodness no! The Normans merely wrested the kingship away from the Saxon Harold Godwinson, they would never have dreamed of exterminating the Saxons! And there's no way they could have done so even if they had wanted to (which they didn't). No, the Normans simply took their place as England's ruling aristocracy after William of Normandy's defeat of Harold at Hastings, in 1066.



sounds very likely but can't be extrapolated to the anglo-saxon invasion of englad when it was controlled by the natives (celts)
then the same with the romans until you get to the neolithic people

just wandering as it seems to be a rather consistent model of how things happen.....someone comes (romans, anglosaxons, normans) and takes the power from the previous ones, making history actualy while in fact they get absorbed rather quickly and still the native population that got the new ways, new names etc. continues along?


Posted By: Alkibiades2
Date Posted: 01-Apr-2009 at 14:21
Originally posted by Constantine XI


It should be pointed out that the Normans completed their Sicilian campaigns and their service in Byzantium before the Battle of Hastings. That they went on Crusade is only typical for a West European member of Christendom, even tiny Scotland managed to send bands of nobles on Crusade. Once established in their kingdoms of England and the southern half of Italy, they finally had wars and homes of their own which absorbed their wandering folk.
 
Yes, thank you Constantine, for your reminder/correction. The Sicilian campaign was undertaken before Hastings, although I don't think Sicily became a genuinely "Norman" kingdom until after the Siege of Palermo in the 1070s.


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Semper ubi sub ubi ubique


Posted By: opuslola
Date Posted: 18-Nov-2009 at 09:11
Maju, Do you think it interesting that Frisia or Frisland / Friesland seems to have kept itself "free" until about 1500 CE?:

http://www.euratlas.net/history/europe/1500/index.html

Note, the most common meaning of this land and its people is considered to mean "Free!", as is the very word "Frank!"

Please consider both "Phrygia / Frigia" as well as "franking privledge" / "phranking?"

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http://www.quotationspage.com/subjects/history/


Posted By: beorna
Date Posted: 22-Dec-2009 at 05:04
the meaning of the term "fris" is unknown. The meaning of "free" is probably not correct. It is even a question whether the Frisii of the Roman Empire are the same with those of the frankish era.
BTW frank doesn't mean free. Frank means originally wild or brave, in later eras a frankish persons was free, so it was said "frank and free".


Posted By: opuslola
Date Posted: 22-Dec-2009 at 12:47
Dear "beorna!"

I would politely disagree with you! (AKA CAn I be "Phrank" with you?)

As regards its remote meaning, I think you will go beyond any records of such a meaning as "wild", etc.! But, of course a consenting group of men and women, bound to no king or foreign ruler, or religion might well be considered as "wild" by others?

I still contend that Fri(e)(s), and its variants, did mean "fre(e)", as in "freeman"! I could offer you some examples but I feel that you can easily find the information without my help?

As regards the term "Frank!", it can also, and maybe firstly, mean "free" also! Please look up "Franking and Franking privledge?" Frank-land meant "land of the free!", or at least "priviliged?"

Again, you can easily find numerous sources!

Phrygia, or Frygia?, was also the origin of the famous felt "cap or bonnet" which has represented "freemen" or "nations" for hundreds of years! (felt-phelt?, etc.!) It was even the "symbol" of revolutionary France! It seems a number of centuries seperate the two!

Did the Franks elect their ruler?

In the USA, it is strange that our first official "Post Master" was Benjamin Franklin, who helped institute the "Franking priviledge!"

Note that "freedom" was left to those priviledged enough to not be in "bond" or "bound by debt" to others!

Regards and prosit!,


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Posted By: beorna
Date Posted: 22-Dec-2009 at 15:48
sorry but this isn't correct. There is no source that gives the term Frisians as free. The Franks are called the "Wild ones" or the "Brave", but it is not completely sure. Free is not a translation for Frank. It is as I said, if a man was a Frankish man, he was free instead of many Romans in Gaul or elsewhere, so to be frank meant free.
BTW the early Franks where often foederati or dedicatii, and so not especially free


Posted By: opuslola
Date Posted: 23-Dec-2009 at 13:23
Dear "Bear!,

It seems we must agree to disagree! That is of course "freedom!", or even "friesdome?" Laugh!

Oh! you do know that America is known as "The land of the "free" and the home of the "brave?"

Just using your definintion here!

Prosit or Prost if you refer?



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http://www.quotationspage.com/subjects/history/


Posted By: Cyrus Shahmiri
Date Posted: 23-Dec-2009 at 13:29
As you read here: http://www.avesta.org/avdict/avdict.htm - Avestan Dictionary , the Avestan word for "free" is "fra", of course it is mostly used as a prefix, according to Shahnameh of Ferdosi, Iraj, the founder of the Iranian kingdom, was the youngest son of Fridun and Fridun himself was a son of Franak and Abtin, there are several historical Iranian figures with the names which begin with "Fra", like the great Median king Fravartish (Phraortes) or some Parthian kings with the name Frahata (Phraates).
 
This word can be also seen in Fravahar, the symbol of Zoroastrianism, Fravadin, the first month in the Iranian calendar and many other Persian words, one of the most important ones is Fravashi: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fravashi - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fravashi
 
A fravashi ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avestan_language - Avestan fravaši; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle_Persian - Middle Persian fraward, frawahr, frohar, frawash, frawaksh) is the guardian spirit mentioned in the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avesta - Avesta of an individual, who sends out the urvan (often translated as 'soul') into the material world to fight the battle of good versus evil.
 
In general, fravashi is believed to have at its root var- "to choose." From reconstructed *fravarti (/rt/ clusters in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avestan - Avestan usually appear as /š/), fravashi could then be interpreted to mean "one who has been selected (for exaltation)." Also following var- "to choose" is the interpretation as "to choose/profess a faith," as also attested in the word fravarane, the name of the Zoroastrian http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Credo - credo .
 
It is interesting to read it: http://www.robertmprice.mindvendor.com/ser_whois_bride_ofchrist.htm - http://www.robertmprice.mindvendor.com/ser_whois_bride_ofchrist.htm
 
The idea is that your guardian angel is a #higher level of your own self#. It is somehow a higher and more glorious version of you! This goes all the way back, as several key Christian doctrines do, by the way, to the ancient Zoroastrian faith of Persia. There it was believed that God, Ahura Mazda, had first created the souls of all human beings and then asked if they would be willing to take on flesh in order to join God in his coming struggle against evil in world history. With this was combined the idea of there being spirits who watched over warriors on the battle field and collected them unto God when they fell in combat, sort of like Valkyries in Germanic myth. The result was that you had a fravashi, a protective spirit that was somehow a higher aspect of yourself!
 
and also this one: http://zoroastriansnet.files.wordpress.com/2008/07/why-out-marriages-are-not-favoured-by-our-religion.doc - http://zoroastriansnet.files.wordpress.com/2008/07/why-out-marriages-are-not-favoured-by-our-religion.doc
 
FRAVARANE – Our Free will, states that Thinking with right intellect & with sensibility,  & then with Faith & Trust, accepts that Path & follows it. In that sense the word ‘VAREN’ Coming in FRA-VARANE ,which means Accepting With Faith! The Freedom IS given – but with a condition – “As You SOW So Shall You REAP” The free will is for choosing the right path, after due deliberation & Full understanding of the fact. The choice is yours! Good or Bad, Choose one, if you choose the wrong one even after considerable deliberation, then you will bear the fruits of that choice.
An example – We are living in a democratic world we are given the freedom to act as we wish, the Freedom is ours to take. But DO you have the freedom to KILL Someone? – To loot his house? - To destroy any ones property? NO - There is that condition, a string attached to the freedom, that provided no harm comes out of your acts you are free to act!   The Same way is Fravarane the free will – Zarathushtra wants us to Choose the Right path after deliberation & Thus help God Vanquish Evil! The Freedom is only regarding the Choice!  The Choice is there, but no respite – ‘Choose the Right one’- is the Message clear & Cut!


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Posted By: opuslola
Date Posted: 23-Dec-2009 at 14:24
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

As you read here: http://www.avesta.org/avdict/avdict.htm - Avestan Dictionary , the Avestan word for "free" is "fra", of course it is mostly used as a prefix, according to Shahnameh of Ferdosi, Iraj, the founder of the Iranian kingdom, was the youngest son of Fridun and Fridun himself was a son of Franak and Abtin, there are several historical Iranian figures with the names which begin with "Fra", like the great Median king Fravartish (Phraortes) or some Parthian kings with the name Frahata (Phraates).
 


So, from the above, we can see somewhat of a relationship to the "fra" in Frank! or even "fre(e)?"

This word can be also seen in Fravahar, the symbol of Zoroastrianism, Fravadin, the first month in the Iranian calendar and many other Persian words, one of the most important ones is Fravashi: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fravashi - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fravashi

 

A fravashi ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avestan_language - [COLOR=#0000ff - Avestan[/COLOR - fravaši; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle_Persian - [COLOR=#0000ff - Middle Persian[/COLOR - fraward, frawahr, frohar, frawash, frawaksh) is the guardian spirit mentioned in the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avesta - [COLOR=#0000ff - Avesta[/COLOR - of an individual, who sends out the urvan (often translated as 'soul') into the material world to fight the battle of good versus evil.


The above meaning possible to be Frank with the world and evil?
 

In general, fravashi is believed to have at its root var- "to choose." From reconstructed *fravarti (/rt/ clusters in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avestan - [COLOR=#0000ff - Avestan[/COLOR - usually appear as /š/), fravashi could then be interpreted to mean "one who has been selected (for exaltation)."

From the above, we see "one who has been selected for exaultation!", thus a freeman, would consider himself so?

Also following var- "to choose" is the interpretation as "to choose/profess a faith," as also attested in the word fravarane, the name of the Zoroastrian http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Credo - [COLOR=#0000ff - credo[/COLOR - .


"to chose" or have the ability to "chose" is an important element in "freedom!"
 

It is interesting to read it: http://www.robertmprice.mindvendor.com/ser_whois_bride_ofchrist.htm - http://www.robertmprice.mindvendor.com/ser_whois_bride_ofchrist.htm


A lot of the Western world was uniquely designed to find and defend the "bride of Christ!", and her sisters on this Earth, that was one of the basics within chivalary!

 

The idea is that your guardian angel is a #higher level of your own self#. It is somehow a higher and more glorious version of you! This goes all the way back, as several key Christian doctrines do, by the way, to the ancient Zoroastrian faith of Persia. There it was believed that God, Ahura Mazda, had first created the souls of all human beings and then asked if they would be willing to take on flesh in order to join God in his coming struggle against evil in world history. With this was combined the idea of there being spirits who watched over warriors on the battle field and collected them unto God when they fell in combat, sort of like Valkyries in Germanic myth. The result was that you had a fravashi, a protective spirit that was somehow a higher aspect of yourself!


Above, we see again the Frankish chaval/ kightly spirit, fighting Evil for God, and the Virgin/ all virgins, etc.! A noble cause that would give one life eternal!
 

and also this one: http://zoroastriansnet.files.wordpress.com/2008/07/why-out-marriages-are-not-favoured-by-our-religion.doc - http://zoroastriansnet.files.wordpress.com/2008/07/why-out-marriages-are-not-favoured-by-our-religion.doc

 

FRAVARANE – Our Free will, states that Thinking with right intellect & with sensibility,  & then with Faith & Trust, accepts that Path & follows it. In that sense the word ‘VAREN’ Coming in FRA-VARANE ,which means Accepting With Faith! The Freedom IS given – but with a condition – “As You SOW So Shall You REAP” The free will is for choosing the right path, after due deliberation & Full understanding of the fact. The choice is yours! Good or Bad, Choose one, if you choose the wrong one even after considerable deliberation, then you will bear the fruits of that choice.

An example – We are living in a democratic world we are given the freedom to act as we wish, the Freedom is ours to take. But DO you have the freedom to KILL Someone? – To loot his house? - To destroy any ones property? NO - There is that condition, a string attached to the freedom, that provided no harm comes out of your acts you are free to act!   The Same way is Fravarane the free will – Zarathushtra wants us to Choose the Right path after deliberation & Thus help God Vanquish Evil! The Freedom is only regarding the Choice!  The Choice is there, but no respite – ‘Choose the Right one’- is the Message clear & Cut!


All the above are but signatures of the oath of a Christian Knight during the middle ages!

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http://www.quotationspage.com/subjects/history/


Posted By: beorna
Date Posted: 24-Dec-2009 at 16:29
It is a question why the frisians should call themselves "the free ones" or were called from their neighbours "the free ones". They weren't more or less free than all the other Germanic nations and during Roman times they were even a part of the Roman empire. unfortunately we can't say were the name comes from, i would prefer it comes from a god "freyr" but this is of course just an idea.


Posted By: opuslola
Date Posted: 24-Dec-2009 at 17:24
Originally posted by beorna

It is a question why the frisians should call themselves "the free ones" or were called from their neighbours "the free ones". They weren't more or less free than all the other Germanic nations and during Roman times they were even a part of the Roman empire. unfortunately we can't say were the name comes from, i would prefer it comes from a god "freyr" but this is of course just an idea.


Of course that is a very good choice! Perhaps there exists some tidbit of information about this "god" from which we now get the name of our "Friday"?

For example is "Friday" named after a female or male god? What are its attributes, etc.? Why was it chosen?, etc.? How many ways was this god's name spelled?

Oh, by the way, I might well argue that the Romans did not conquerer and hold this area?, even under the HRE!
Regards,

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Posted By: beorna
Date Posted: 25-Dec-2009 at 16:10
Usually Friday is said to come from the female Freya. But there is also Frey, who appears as well as Fro or Ing, Ingwy-Freyr. The Frisians BTW were placed among the Ingvaeones.
It is difficult to say what attributes both have, because our informations are from different places and times. Germanc gods weren't fixed. Two gods could "melt" together or one god could split into two new gods, perhaps like Freya and Freyr, who could be the female and male part of an older god. the older gods from the pre-Roman-Iron-Age are different from those of the Viking age and those of the Rhine area different to those of Skandinavia and the Black sea area.
 
the Frisians were ruled buy Rome since 12 BC, with some interruptions. About 300 the taciteian tribe came to its end. In the 5th century the name Frisians was renewed and the population rose. During that time the Frisians were part of the Saxons. Perhaps these "new" Frisians have just a little to do with the older ones. later under Karl Martell and Charles the Great Friesland was conquered and since that time they were part of the Frankish empire or the (H)RE. But it is correct, that the Frisians had a special political system that was different to others around them.


Posted By: Cyrus Shahmiri
Date Posted: 26-Dec-2009 at 00:42
According to Germanic mythology, and as mentioned by Tacitus in Germania, Frey, as the progenitor of a Germanic tribe, was one of three sons of Mannus: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mannus - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mannus  as you read in that Wiki article, Mannus could be the same Iranian Manus (Manus-chihr), according to Iranian mythology, Manus had also three sons, as the progenitor of three Iranian tribes, and the first one was Frya.
 
I think Frisians could be the same Avestan Friasian, Pahlavi Frasiyav and Modern Persian Afrasiab, the worst enemy of Iranian peoples.
 
You can read the whole story in Avesta: http://www.avesta.org/mp/grb27.htm - http://www.avesta.org/mp/grb27.htm

1. When the Evil Spirit came in, at the beginning of the first millennium in the mingled state, Gav and Gayomard existed. As Mashye and Mashyane practised that ingratitude, they had no issue, therefore for fifty years. In this millennium, for seventy years Hooshang and Takhmorap {Tahmurasp} both killed the devs. At the millennium's end, the devs sawed Jam {Jamshed}.

2. The second millennium commenced; Azi Dahak {Zohak} began his wicked reign, and ruled for a thousand years. When the millennium ended, Faridoon seized and imprisoned him.

3. The third millennium commenced. When Faridoon allotted the dominions, they, Salm and Tuj, killed Airij, and destroyed his children and grandchildren. 4. In this millennium, Manuschihr was born and sought the revenge of Airij. 5. Then Frasiyav came, vanquished Manuschihr with the Iranians at Mount Patashkhvar, destroyed them with disease, want, and much pestilence, and killed Manuschihr's sons Frya and Notar, till Iranshahr was taken from Frasiyav by another generation. 6. And when Manuschihr had passed away, Frasiyav came again, perpetrated much disintegration and desolation in Iranshahr, and withheld the rains from Iranshahr, till Uzava son of Tumaspa came, vanquished Frasiyav, and produced the rain which they called “the new rain." 7 And after Uzava, Frasiyav again did immense harm to Iranshahr, till Kavat sat on the throne of sovereignty. ...



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Posted By: beorna
Date Posted: 26-Dec-2009 at 15:21
Oh, come on Cyrus, not again please.


Posted By: Lothbrok
Date Posted: 26-Dec-2009 at 19:20
In reference to the sword guard, I would reference "The Sword in Anglo-Saxon England" by H.R. Ellis Davidson. Great book.

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"Speak useful words or be silent." - Havamal


Posted By: red clay
Date Posted: 26-Dec-2009 at 22:24
Some where back in timeBig smile I seem to remember reading that Friday was named after a female deity known as Frigga.  Any ideas?


Posted By: Lothbrok
Date Posted: 26-Dec-2009 at 23:53
I would say Frey's Day is a more likely candidate.

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"Speak useful words or be silent." - Havamal


Posted By: opuslola
Date Posted: 27-Dec-2009 at 03:37
Red Clay, you are also correct! A Google search:
http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&aq=1&oq=frigga&ie=UTF-8&rlz=1T4ADBR_enUS315US315&q=frigg+goddess

http://www.goddess-guide.com/frigg.html

http://www.goddess-guide.com/freya.html

Whether Friday was named for either or both of these gods is open to discussion, but one or more commonalities exist. For me it is the fact that both of these (or maybe they are one?) gods have the power over the Raven.

I would contend, that in the times whereby families or even nations / communites would display "Chrests" or "armorial signs", and one sees, what is usually today called an "eagle", or a "two headed eagle", is in reality, what we usually would call or descrive as the "Raven or Rook or the Corvus!" IE, the bird of the battlefield!

Regards,




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http://www.quotationspage.com/subjects/history/


Posted By: beorna
Date Posted: 27-Dec-2009 at 04:53
dies solis, dies lunae, dies martis, dies mercuri, dies iovis, dies veneris, dies saturni
-
that shows that friday is the day of freya and not of her brother Freyr


Posted By: Cyrus Shahmiri
Date Posted: 27-Dec-2009 at 07:43
Originally posted by beorna

Oh, come on Cyrus, not again please.
What is wrong about a mythological comparison? Please believe it is not an insult to Germanic or Iranian people to say for example Germanic Mannus and Iranian Manus or Frey and Frya have a common origin, I think everyone who has reserched about these things, know them as clear facts.


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Posted By: beorna
Date Posted: 27-Dec-2009 at 09:31
i have no problem with those relations. it is true that yama/ymir and mannus have common  roots, but usually you will go allways the same road, all germanic nations are coming from iran


Posted By: Cyrus Shahmiri
Date Posted: 27-Dec-2009 at 10:46
These are just hypotheses, as I said in  http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=27994 - this thread , a more possible hypothesis is an Iranian migration from the Germanic lands, anyway I'm researching about it and have found a large number of similarities between Iranian and Germanic cultures, different from other Indo-European cultures, like "the great winter".

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Posted By: beorna
Date Posted: 27-Dec-2009 at 15:01
I have nothing against similarities but your Iranian migration is really a fiction. But I would like not to speak here about this, because you hijacked so many other threads before.


Posted By: opuslola
Date Posted: 27-Dec-2009 at 15:20
Bear, I know nothing about "other times" on this site! "Hijacking" a thread is a coarse term! In other words, without "coarse" replies, there could be no "hi-jack!" To say "your Iranian migration is really a fiction" is a non winner!

You must know that your "certainty" is merely the "best guess" based upon the agreed upon suppositions! There is "no fact!", merely "best guesses!"

Cyrus has been a most gracious host for me since I began here, but it also seems that we share some commonalities!

I will end this post with this site;


http://www.mainlesson.com/display.php?author=mabie&book=norse&story=twilight

"The long nights and the short, dark days followed fast upon each other, and as the time drew near when summer would come again men's hearts grew light with hope once more. Each day they looked into the sullen skies, through which clouds of snow were whirling, and said to each other, "To-morrow the summer will come;" but when the morrow came no summer came with it. And all through the months that in other days had been beautiful with flowers the snow fell steadily, [236] and the cold winds blew fiercely, while eyes grew sad and hearts heavy with waiting for a summer that did not come. And it never came again; for this was the terrible Fimbul-winter, long foretold, from which even the gods could not escape. In Jotunheim there was joy among the frost-giants as they shouted to each other through the howling storms, "The Fimbul-winter has come at last." At first men shuddered as they whispered, "Can it be the Fimbul-winter?" But when they knew it beyond all doubting a blind despair filled them, and they were reckless alike of good or evil. Over the whole earth war followed fast upon war, and everywhere there were wrangling and fighting and murder. It hardly snowed fast enough to cover the blood-stains. Mothers [237] forgot to love their little children, and brothers struck each other down as if they were the bitterest enemies."

Regards,

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http://www.quotationspage.com/subjects/history/


Posted By: beorna
Date Posted: 27-Dec-2009 at 15:49
well, I know him a long time too. Everytime we spoke about early times, of the history of Germanics, Celts or even older times, he came with his Iranian migration. I'll never say there was never an Iranian who put his feet on Middle Europe but whole nations there shall be Iranians as he believes and for the most of it there is absolutely nothing that shows an Iranian relation. His belief often killed an succesful discussion, that's why I used "hijacked". This was especially the case in a thread about the Saxons and the invasion of Britain too. Because the Frisians are close related with other saxon nations, they were probably a part of them, I wanted to stop any Iranian theme immediately. But this is nothing personal against Cyrus, it is just that I can't hear those stories anymore.


Posted By: TheGreatSimba
Date Posted: 27-Dec-2009 at 17:07
I, as an Iranian myself, will have to also respectfully disagree with Cyrus' theory. Iranian peoples as we know them originated from Central Asia (where indo-Europeans came from originally is unimportant).

Like I said before, you can go back as far as you want in history with regards to the origins of peoples, this will only lead to Africa...

the only important thing is to be able to identify a people when they developed into who we know them to be. in the case of Iranians, they came from central asia, not Europe, not Africa, etc... they developed themselves as a people in Central Asia and that is where they originated.


Posted By: opuslola
Date Posted: 27-Dec-2009 at 17:23
TGS, wrote;

"the only important thing is to be able to identify a people when they developed into who we know them to be. in the case of Iranians, they came from central asia, not Europe, not Africa, etc... they developed themselves as a people in Central Asia and that is where they originated."

Even though TGS also related current thought as to the origin of modern man and women, IE Africa, I will say that this entire theme is also nothing but "supposition?" IE, educated guesswork!

In any event, it could also be related to continental expansion or the currently accepted version? Thus we are supposed to believe that all continents now visable were at one time connected into one giant continent!

If proto-mankind was developed during such a connection, then, in reality, no one really knows the epicenter of such a development!

What we really know is that in Africa, some "experts"? have discovered the remains of a semi-manlike creature which has been promoted to be the originator of "Modern man and modern women!"

As is the case with many such expressions of "science" it is, in reality, only the specific ability of certain "experts" to agree upon a certain "theory" and by the formation of thousands of papers in the "I agree" side, make this "theory" into something that soon seems to resemble "reality?" IE, a "semi forced agreement!" To disagree would or could ruin one's ability to move up in the vanguard of the speciality?

But, in the long term, we do not know if such agreement will stand the "Test of time?" LOL

Regards,



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http://www.quotationspage.com/subjects/history/


Posted By: TheGreatSimba
Date Posted: 27-Dec-2009 at 17:38
Originally posted by opuslola

TGS, wrote;

"the only important thing is to be able to identify a people when they developed into who we know them to be. in the case of Iranians, they came from central asia, not Europe, not Africa, etc... they developed themselves as a people in Central Asia and that is where they originated."

Even though TGS also related current thought as to the origin of modern man and women, IE Africa, I will say that this entire theme is also nothing but "supposition?" IE, educated guesswork!

In any event, it could also be related to continental expansion or the currently accepted version? Thus we are supposed to believe that all continents now visable were at one time connected into one giant continent!

If proto-mankind was developed during such a connection, then, in reality, no one really knows the epicenter of such a development!

What we really know is that in Africa, some "experts"? have discovered the remains of a semi-manlike creature which has been promoted to be the originator of "Modern man and modern women!"

As is the case with many such expressions of "science" it is, in reality, only the specific ability of certain "experts" to agree upon a certain "theory" and by the formation of thousands of papers in the "I agree" side, make this "theory" into something that soon seems to resemble "reality?" IE, a "semi forced agreement!" To disagree would or could ruin one's ability to move up in the vanguard of the speciality?

But, in the long term, we do not know if such agreement will stand the "Test of time?" LOL

Regards,



um...These are facts. its a FACT that humans originated in Africa. its a fact that Iranians originated in Central Asia. The Iranian origin in Central Asia is not almost unanimously accepted, We know where the Persians, Medes, Parthians, etc... came from. Even the Scythians Samartians originated in Central Asia but instead of migrated Southwards they migrated to the North West and ended up in Eastern Europe and the Caucasus.

You can deny that humans originated in Africa but then that will put an end to any possibility of a fruitful discussion.

At one point these were theories, but with technological advancement, DNA testing, and new archaeological finds, these are now accepted.


Posted By: opuslola
Date Posted: 27-Dec-2009 at 17:51
TGS, you said in the above post that "these are now accepted!"

Please read some "history?" Do I have to tell you the number of things that have been "accepted" by the current sicentific establishment in the last 500 years? Do you believe that many of these "established facts" are not considered so?

So, just why do you place such a "god like" acceptance upon any thing said in the 20th or 21st century?

You just deny the invevitable? Most everything now considered as "fact" may well be doomed to hell withing the next 50 or so years!

Regards,

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http://www.quotationspage.com/subjects/history/


Posted By: TheGreatSimba
Date Posted: 27-Dec-2009 at 17:56
Originally posted by opuslola

TGS, you said in the above post that "these are now accepted!"

Please read some "history?" Do I have to tell you the number of things that have been "accepted" by the current sicentific establishment in the last 500 years? Do you believe that many of these "established facts" are not considered so?

So, just why do you place such a "god like" acceptance upon any thing said in the 20th or 21st century?

You just deny the invevitable? Most everything now considered as "fact" may well be doomed to hell withing the next 50 or so years!

Regards,


Are you a religious person Opuslola (I dunno maybe you believe in creationism or something), if so, we can create a new thread to have this discussion because this is diverting from the original topic.

Science is always changing, as time passes, new discoveries are made and older out dated ones are discarded, thats how it works, and thats how humans learn.

But yes, the African origin of mankind is 100% accurate, its a mystery that has already been solved, it took decades but it has finally been solved. Its one that we can check off of the list.

But this is going off topic. Sorry guys.




Posted By: opuslola
Date Posted: 27-Dec-2009 at 18:12
TGS wrote, before he decided this topic had "gone off topic"; "But yes, the African origin of mankind is 100% accurate, its a mystery that has already been solved, it took decades but it has finally been solved. Its one that we can check off of the list."

The above statement is just as specius as that of others in the past who; 1. wrote off heavier than air flight? 2. sub-atomic particles 3. the Earth as the Centre of the Universe 4. There are no such things as germs! 5. The Earth is Flat! 6. ad infinitum!

You sir, have too much to either gain from your beliefs, or you are somewhat denuded? You seem to place too much faith in "science" which is subject to much movement, much like Earth-quakes!

The real answer is always somewhat beyond the reach of mankind! My Quote, as far as I know!

Regards,


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http://www.quotationspage.com/subjects/history/


Posted By: TheGreatSimba
Date Posted: 27-Dec-2009 at 18:19
Well, this conversation is not going to go anywhere. Now you are bringing up "discoveries" from centuries ago to help prove a point that science is wrong?

This isnt going anywhere, I'm not going to waste my time. I've heard this argument many many times before, and it gets more ridiculous every time.


Posted By: opuslola
Date Posted: 04-Jan-2010 at 14:28
"C'est la vie"

Ron

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http://www.quotationspage.com/subjects/history/


Posted By: Deano97
Date Posted: 07-Mar-2010 at 17:31

The Saxons were a Germanic tribe.They only ended up in England because they had been run out of there homeland, and the people (not the goverment) of Britan paid them to fight the Picks w/ money and land.When they were done fighting the invading Scots and stopped receiving payment they turned on the people and conquered them.



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I fart in your general direction!Your mother was a hamster and your father smelled of Elderberries!


Posted By: Shield-of-Dardania
Date Posted: 01-Apr-2010 at 03:33
Originally posted by Alkibiades2

Even after the conquest of England the Normans (themselves of Scandinavian ancestry) did not lose their wanderlust. Many headed to the Mediterranean. They were active in the First Crusade. They served as mercenaries in Byzantium. They conquered Sicily, establishing a capital in Palermo, and their great stone castles still stand in the northern part of the island. Fascinating.
 But their blood wasn't just Scandinavian, was it? They also had Frankish, Gaulish and Roman in them. So, they could go north, remain in the centre or shift south, and they'd still be in the lands of some ancestors.


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History makes everything. Everything is history in the making.


Posted By: opuslola
Date Posted: 01-Apr-2010 at 15:35
Originally posted by Shield-of-Dardania

Originally posted by Alkibiades2


Even after the conquest of England the Normans (themselves of Scandinavian ancestry) did not lose their wanderlust. Many headed to the Mediterranean. They were active in the First Crusade. They served as mercenaries in Byzantium. They conquered Sicily, establishing a capital in Palermo, and their great stone castles still stand in the northern part of the island. Fascinating.

 But their blood wasn't just Scandinavian, was it? They also had Frankish, Gaulish and Roman in them. So, they could go north, remain in the centre or shift south, and they'd still be in the lands of some ancestors.


Yes, it seems in many ways that the great Frankish Kingdom (Andevin), followed closely the route of both the V. Goths and Vandals! It seems they even became embroiled in the occupation of Greece and surrounding areas! As well as attacking and looting Rome!

Please feel free to read about this Angevin Empire! And, also read about the great Spanish Empire!

But, more from me, might result in my exile to Elba!

Regards,

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http://www.quotationspage.com/subjects/history/



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