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Ancient knowledge!!

Printed From: History Community ~ All Empires
Category: Regional History or Period History
Forum Name: Ancient Mesopotamia, Near East and Greater Iran
Forum Discription: Babylon, Egypt, Persia and other civilizations of the Near East from ancient times to 600s AD
URL: http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=6010
Printed Date: 29-Mar-2024 at 10:13
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Topic: Ancient knowledge!!
Posted By: Praetorian
Subject: Ancient knowledge!!
Date Posted: 07-Oct-2005 at 23:40

The Roman Empire was the most advanced civilization on all of Earth and the most powerful. Rome was perhaps the most over powered Empire in Human history.

What if the Roman Empire never fell, we may be 300 or 500 years ahead on technology and social advances. Not including the Romans provide protection to there provinces like Greece and others, with other nations and tribes under the Romans new ideas came….

When the Roman empire fell knowledge has been lost or held back or rediscovered. Knowledge like medical sciences and sugary that recently has been discovered in 1997 AD-2004 AD about Roman medical sciences and tools. The Repeating Ballistae, Roman architecture, Roman plumbing, citizenship, police and fire Department, the aqueducts, water filters, Roman field medics, Roman Coliseum, flipper for scuba divers, some machinery, and etc. Under the Roman Empire the Greeks invented the STEEM ENGENE and SELF OPENING DOORS, this are the new ideas I was talking about….

And so much more knowledge that we still do not know about, I mean in 2004AD there has been a new discoveries about Gladiators and new Roman weapons….

It took us 1800 years to rediscover or remake most what the west has lost.

Some thinks like medical sciences, tools, most architecture, Coliseum, SELF OPENING DOORS, some machinery and act took 2000 years to rediscover or remake….

And I’m not including the other ancient people like Egypt, Greece (by them selves),….

 



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“Caesar si viveret, ad remum dareris”
“--If Caesar were alive, you'd be chained to an oar.”

"game over!! man game over!!"



Replies:
Posted By: azimuth
Date Posted: 08-Oct-2005 at 00:21

can you give us some examples of these rediscovered knowledge, i mean in more details.

 



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Posted By: Maju
Date Posted: 08-Oct-2005 at 01:08
Well, it's obvious that Praetorian has an, I would say, excessive an not well founded enthusiasm for Romans and the Roman Empire... specially for the discoveries of Greeks like the steem engene (sic)... which surely gave much self-steem to Romans 

Now, seriously, while Romans were the best in infantery military tactics and also excelled in copying other peoples' technologies, like Etruscan architecture and engineering, Illyrian and Phoenician navigation skills, Greek mythology and philosophy, and finally Jewish monotheism, there's nothing genuinely Roman that has been left as legacy by this Empire other than the legion, the titles for supreme hierarchs (Caesar, Emperor) and the developement of feudalism. Some suggest that if Hannibal had won the 2nd Punic War, America would have been discovered before the 5th century (instead Romans, relatively poor navigators and traders, remained ashore most of the time).



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NO GOD, NO MASTER!


Posted By: Praetorian
Date Posted: 08-Oct-2005 at 13:02

"can you give us some examples of these rediscovered knowledge, i mean in more details."

Like what or how?

 

 

 "America would have been discovered before the 5th century (instead Romans, relatively poor navigators and traders, remained ashore most of the time)."

what do you mean?



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“Caesar si viveret, ad remum dareris”
“--If Caesar were alive, you'd be chained to an oar.”

"game over!! man game over!!"


Posted By: Phallanx
Date Posted: 08-Oct-2005 at 20:48
Well there obviously was a large amount of knowledge lost that was only rediscovered many years later, as seen in many examples.

*Let's take the library of Alexandria, Suda encyclopaedia describes a large bronze statue with a metal head that was held in the air by a large magnet placed on the ceiling, we know today the complexity and the need of perfect knowledge of natural magnetic (F3 O4) in order to achieve such an accomplishment. This 'technique' is known today as Magler-Magnetic-Leviation and we find it used in modern trains (the ones that by the use of magnets don't have any contact with the rails...

*Aristarchus actually discovered the earth moves around the sun some 1,700 whole years before Copernicus did, not to neglect to mention that he also argued that day and night are results of the earth turning on its axis.

*Heron, the first to use steam engines, as seen in his "wind ball", he had also written a book about robots and their use in temples. (automatic opening doors..etc)


Anyway, I'll agree that they were poor navigators which is why they 'invented" the tactic where we'd see them using a "drawbridge" to board the enemy's vessel and beat them hand-0to-hand...
But why neglect the obvious knowledge they received from the Hellines of the many cities in S. Italy and instead mention Phoenicians and Illyrians, when we know for a fact that it was they that copied the Cathargian vessels and constructed similar ones, for the Romans


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To the gods we mortals are all ignorant.Those old traditions from our ancestors, the ones we've had as long as time itself, no argument will ever overthrow, in spite of subtleties sharp minds invent.


Posted By: Maju
Date Posted: 08-Oct-2005 at 21:40
Originally posted by Praetorian

"can you give us some examples of these rediscovered knowledge, i mean in more details."

Like what or how?


Like the steam engine and those self-opening doors you mention?

 

"America would have been discovered before the 5th century (instead Romans, relatively poor navigators and traders, remained ashore most of the time)."

what do you mean?



I mean that while Phoenicians did master the navigation knowledge of their time and were daring explorers, Romans were just more land-based. Hanno navigated around Africa till beyond the Equator, a feat that wouldn't be emulated until 15th century Portuguese explorers did the same... and more.

Maybe discovering America 1000 years before it actually happened is too much of a speculation (maybe not) but we can be sure that with their African colonies along all the coast of Morocco and with their navigational skills and advanture spirit, as soon as the news of gold from Sudan (Guinea) arrived to the Med via the Sahara (c. 700 CE), Phoenicians would have sent an expedition to set colonies in Guinea. I'm certain that Africa would have been circunnavigated soon after (or maybe even before), the discovery of America would only be one step farther away.


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NO GOD, NO MASTER!


Posted By: Phallanx
Date Posted: 09-Oct-2005 at 10:37
Like the steam engine and those self-opening doors you mention?


I have the video tape made by a group of Uni.. students and their prfessors.. I recall them having their work online somewhere, but couldn't find it.. anyway, here's a different link that explains how the system worked quite well:

Temple Doors opened by Fire on an Altar.

The construction of a small temple such that, on lighting a fire, the doors shall open spontaneously, and shut again when the fire is extinguished. Let the proposed temple stand on a pedestal, A B C D (fig. 37), on which lies a small altar, E D. Through the altar insert a tube, F G, of which the mouth F is within the alter and the the mouth G is contained in a globe, H, reaching nearly to its centre: the tube must be soldered into the globe, in which a bent siphon, K L M, is placed. Let the hinges of the doors be extended downwards and turn freely on pivots in the base A B C D; and from the hinges let two chains, running into one, be attached, by means of a pulley, to a hollow vessel, N X, which is suspended; while other chains, wound upon the hinges in an opposite direction to the former, and running into one, are attached, by means of a pulley, to a leaden weight, on the descent of which the doors will be shut. Let the outer leg of the siphon K L M lead into the suspended vessel; and through a hole, P, which must be carefully closed afterwards, pour water into the globe enough to fill one haif of it. It will be found that, when the fire has grown hot, the air in the altar becoming heated expands into a larger space; and, passing through the tube F G into the globe, it will drive out the liquid contained there through the siphon K L M into the suspended vessel, which, descending with its weight, will tighten the chains and open the doors. Again, when the fire is extinguished, the rarefied air will escape through the pores in the side of the globe, and the bent siphon, (the extremity of which will be immersed in the water in the suspended vessel) will draw up the liquid in the vessel in order to fill up the void left by the particles removed. When the vessel is lightened the weight suspended will preponderate and shut the doors. Some in place of water use quicksilver, as it is heavier than water and is easily disunited by fire.




Other intermediate means of opening Temple Doors by Fire on an Altar.

There is another way in which, on lighting a fire, the doors will open. As before, let a small temple stand upon a base, A B C D (fig. 38), on which is an altar, E. Let a tube, F G H, pass through the altar and be attached to a leathern bag, K, perfectly air-tight : beneath this let a small weight, L, hang, from which a chain is attached across a pulley to the chains round the hinges, so that, when the bag is folded together, the weight L preponderates and shuts the doors, and when fire is placed on the altar they are opened. For, as before, the air in the altar growing hot, and expanding, will pass through the tube F G H into the bag, and raise it up with the weight L; and then the doors will be opened. The doors will either open of themselves, as the doors of baths shut spontaneously, or they may have a counterbalancing weight to open them. When the sacrifice is extinguished, and the air which has entered the bag passes out, the weight, descending with the bag, will tighten the chains and close the doors.

the link has a whole list of inventions by Heron... even the steam engines mentioned before (50) :
http://www.history.rochester.edu/steam/hero/index.html - HERON OF ALEXANDRIA


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To the gods we mortals are all ignorant.Those old traditions from our ancestors, the ones we've had as long as time itself, no argument will ever overthrow, in spite of subtleties sharp minds invent.


Posted By: Jhangora
Date Posted: 09-Oct-2005 at 10:44
Pillar of strength

The rustless wonder called the Iron Pillar near the Qutb Minar at Mehrauli in Delhi did not attract the attention of scientists till the second quarter of the 19th century.

The first reports of the pillar were by British soldiers, and Captain Archer talked about its inscription of 'unknown antiquity which nobody can read'. James Prinsep, an Indian antiquarian, deciphered the inscription in 1838 and translated it into English in the Journal of the Asiatic Society of Bengal.

Scholars consider the pillar to be of early Gupta period (320-495 AD) on grounds of palaeography, content and language of the inscription and the style of execution. But there are differences in opinion over whether the king referred to in the inscription as Chandra is Samudragupta (340-375) or his son Chandragupta II (375-415). The pillar was perhaps a standard for supporting an image of Garuda, the bird carrier of Lord Vishnu.

The inscription refers to a ruler named Chandra, who had conquered the Vangas and Vahlikas, and the breeze of whose valour still perfumed the southern ocean. "The king who answers the description is none but Samudragupta, the real founder of the Gupta empire," said Prof. T.R. Anantharaman, who has authored The Rustless Wonder, a monograph published by Vigyan Prasar.

The excellent state of preservation of the Iron Pillar, near the Qutb Minar at Mehrauli in Delhi, despite exposure for 15 centuries to the elements, has amazed corrosion technologists. In particular, metallurgist Prof. T.R. Anantharaman, who has authored The Rustless Wonder.

In 1961, the pillar (23 feet and 8 inches, and 6 tonnes) was dug out for chemical treatment and preservation and reinstalled by embedding the underground part in a masonry pedestal. Chemical analyses have indicated that the pillar was astonishingly pure or low in carbon compared with modern commercial iron.

In 1963, M.K. Ghosh of the National Metallurgical Laboratory concluded that the pillar had been very effectively orge-welded. B.B. Lal, chief chemist at the Archaeological Survey of India, also came to the conclusion that the pillar was not cast, but fabricated by forging and hammer-welding lumps of hot pasty iron, weighing 20 to 30 kg, in a step-by-step process. The surface of the pillar retains marks of hammer blows. It is assumed that 120 labourers took a fortnight to complete this daunting task.

The excellent state of preservation of the Iron Pillar despite exposure for 15 centuries to the elements has amazed corrosion technologists. High phosphorus, low sulphur, low manganese and high sl*g contents contribute individually and collectively to the good corrosion resistance.

Besides, a protective oxide film, 50 to 600 microns thick, has formed on the pillar. This is less than 50 microns in the bright, polished section where people used to clasp around for luck.



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Jai Badri Vishal


Posted By: Decebal
Date Posted: 10-Oct-2005 at 13:41
Originally posted by Praetorian

The Roman Empire was the most advanced civilization on all of Earth and the most powerful. Rome was perhaps the most over powered Empire in Human history.

I'd like to point out that contemporary with the Roman Empire was the Parthian (later Sassanid) Empire, Han China and even the Kushan (later Gupta) empire. These 3 empires, in particular Han China were the Romans' equals in military strength, science and culutural development. While the Roman Empire was overpowered compared to the primitive states surrounding it in Northern Europe and North Africa, it certainly was not overpowered relative to the Sassanids or the Hans. If you want to talk about scientific achievements, how about the Hans: paper, block printing, advanced metallurgy, magnetic compass...



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What is history but a fable agreed upon?
Napoleon Bonaparte

Even if you are a minority of one, the truth is the truth.- Mohandas Gandhi



Posted By: Praetorian
Date Posted: 10-Oct-2005 at 14:47

“I'd like to point out that contemporary with the Roman Empire was the Parthian (later Sassanid) Empire, Han China and even the Kushan (later Gupta) empire. These 3 empires, in particular Han China were the Romans' equals in military strength, science and culutural development. While the Roman Empire was overpowered compared to the primitive states surrounding it in Northern Europe and North Africa, it certainly was not overpowered relative to the Sassanids or the Hans. If you want to talk about scientific achievements, how about the Hans: paper, block printing, advanced metallurgy, magnetic compass…”

Yes Han were advanced so were some others, this is way I said the topic is ancient knowledge. But I think the Romans were over all the most advanced, because it took us about 1800 years to rediscover or remake most what the West has lost (not including more advances during the time we were rediscovering lost knowledge).

Some thinks like medical sciences, tools, architecture, Coliseum, pluming, some machinery and more. took 2000 years to rediscover or remake….

The Romans did have paper too, every buddy had some form of paper….

We are also talking about social advances like citizenship, or organization like worlds first police and fire Department and the first field medics….

Han China were some what equal in military strength, but what I mean by overpowered is that the Romans were the longest empire in history and they billet so much….

"Roman Empire was overpowered compared to the primitive states surrounding it..."

Greece was not primitive, Egypt was not that primitive, the middle east was not primitive, Spain was not primitive.

I mean During Roman times the Egyptians invented tooth-paced and the Roman had moth wash,

“Like the steam engine and those self-opening doors you mention?”

Well, the steam engines was built 2000 yeas be for, self-opening doors were in Sci-Fi and the Greeks had it 2000 years before we had any thing like that. The “first self-opening doors” its actually the second self-opening doors, It was I think 1970s were you had to step on an button and it opens (its all mechanical).

“I mean that while Phoenicians did master the navigation knowledge of their time and were daring explorers, Romans were just more land-based.”

True, but would the Romans get some knowledge from the people they conquered?

This is what I mean. We truly do not know every thing about the Romans, the Phoenicians. the Greeks, mid-east, and north Africa because when Roman Empire fell so did most of the knowledge because of the barbarians, the Roman provinces like Greece, Egypt and others were not too protected….

I mean the Mongols burned the library of Alexandria!!!!!

 

“Hanno navigated around Africa till beyond the Equator, a feat that wouldn't be emulated until 15th century Portuguese explorers did the same... and more.”

I see… The Spanish Empire were the first people to go around the Earth!….

 

That’s nice katulakatula… That’s cool Phallanx...



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“Caesar si viveret, ad remum dareris”
“--If Caesar were alive, you'd be chained to an oar.”

"game over!! man game over!!"


Posted By: Maju
Date Posted: 11-Oct-2005 at 05:46
I mean the Mongols burned the library of Alexandria!!!!!


The former is an absurd claim: Mongols never reached Egypt and anyhow it's thought that the famous library was probably burned by Caesar (or at least that what Plutarch claims). See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Library_of_Alexandria#Destruction_of_the_Great_Library - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Library_of_Alexandria#Destructi on_of_the_Great_Library


“Hanno navigated around Africa till beyond the Equator, a feat that wouldn't be emulated until 15th century Portuguese explorers did the same... and more.”

I see… The Spanish Empire were the first people to go around the Earth!….


Well actually the Spanish Empire stayed quiet while some people, more specifically a Basque officer named Juan Sebastian Elkano, acomplished the feat. If Phoenicians couldn't do it, it had to be a Basque


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NO GOD, NO MASTER!


Posted By: Decebal
Date Posted: 11-Oct-2005 at 08:46

Originally posted by Praetorian

The Romans did have paper too, every buddy had some form of paper….

The Romans used papyrus from Egypt, which was dependent uopn the cultivation of that particular plant. Today papyrus is almost extinct: this shows that a civilization which was solely dependent upon it might have had problems. Besides, papyrus paper was fairly easy to produce out of the plant. The Chinese invented paper, which could be made out of almost any wood or fabric and which is the end result of a relatively advanced technological process

Originally posted by Praetorian

Han China were some what equal in military strength, but what I mean by overpowered is that the Romans were the longest empire in history and they billet so much….

billet? Anyway, the Romans were not the longest empire in history (753BC-1453). The Chinese had a more or less continous empire from about 1600BC to the mongol conquest of the Sung in 1260, followed by another 600 years of imperial rule (1368-1912). And don't give me the bit about the Chinese being divided at times during this period, because the Romans were as well at times. And what about the Egyptians (3100-31BC) or the Ethiopians (250BC-1936)?

Originally posted by Praetorian

"Roman Empire was overpowered compared to the primitive states surrounding it..."

Greece was not primitive, Egypt was not that primitive, the middle east was not primitive, Spain was not primitive.

When Greece or Spain were independent, the Romans were not overpowered. I'm talking about the Roman Empire at the height of its power. You also quoted me out of context, since I then talked about the surrounding states in Northen Europe and Northern Africa, which were primitive. 

Originally posted by Praetorian

I mean the Mongols burned the library of Alexandria!!!!!

Yeah, buddy, you need to learn some more history. It was actually the Aztecs under Charlemagne who burned the library after defeating king Ashoka!



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What is history but a fable agreed upon?
Napoleon Bonaparte

Even if you are a minority of one, the truth is the truth.- Mohandas Gandhi



Posted By: Praetorian
Date Posted: 12-Oct-2005 at 17:08

“The Romans used papyrus from Egypt, which was dependent uopn the cultivation of that particular plant. Today papyrus is almost extinct: this shows that a civilization which was solely dependent upon it might have had problems. Besides, papyrus paper was fairly easy to produce out of the plant. The Chinese invented paper, which could be made out of almost any wood or fabric and which is the end result of a relatively advanced technological process”

I meant Some form of paper. But yes the Romans had papyrus and some other types if I’m not mistaken, they even rote on wood chips that can be fond today….

“Billet? Anyway, the Romans were not the longest empire in history (753BC-1453). The Chinese had a more or less continuous empire from about 1600BC to the mongol conquest of the Sung in 1260, followed by another 600 years of imperial rule (1368-1912). And don't give me the bit about the Chinese being divided at times during this period, because the Romans were as well at times. And what about the Egyptians (3100-31BC) or the Ethiopians (250BC-1936)?”

Your talking about civilizations and influents not an Empire or an government and people,  the Roman Empire fell in 475 AD some say 500 AD or even 615 AD. China was divided in different kingdoms and governments… China is an civilization but so were the kingdoms Gust like the Greek city state. But an Empire would be like the Han, get it? Its like saying if the Soviet Empire was the same as the Russian Empire, there not. Or saying all the German reichs are the same. And if the Romans fell in 1453 AD well I can say there still around because of the Vatican, they have a seat in the UN. You can say the Vatican is a continue of the Romans.

Yes China and most the other nations in the world do have an continuous empire…. But a continuous empire and ONE EMPIRE is much different.  You see China were like the Greek city states, China had different kingdoms in it.  An Empire is were you conquer another Kingdome or civilization… but saying if China was an Empire is ALMOST like say if Europe is an Empire (if they be come one country) or I can say that Europe is an continuous empire, get what I mean? There were defiant empires in Europe but not the European Empire.  So if an Government or an kingdom takes another (with in the Country) its not necessarily the Chinese Empire or the Greek empire, it was all propaganda to unite the conquered people with in the country.  You see when the Rome united Italy  it was not the Italian Empire but it was the Roman Empire.   And besides the US government is older then the Chinese government, but the Chinese civilization is older then the USA. Do you get what I’m saying with all this?

“When Greece or Spain were independent, the Romans were not overpowered. I'm talking about the Roman Empire at the height of its power. You also quoted me out of context, since I then talked about the surrounding states in Northern Europe and Northern Africa, which were primitive.”

At the height of its power Greece or Spain were not independent they were under the Roman rule, there are Roman buildings in those countries and Romans built some of there cites.  Nordic people were not primitive, and as for Northern Africa most of it were taken from the Greeks by the Romans and the Greeks were not primitive.

“The former is an absurd claim: Mongols never reached Egypt and anyhow it's thought that the famous library was probably burned by Caesar (or at least that what Plutarch claims). See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Library_of_Alexandria%20/%20Destruction_of_the_Great_Library - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Library_of_Alexandria#Destructi on_of_the_Great_Library

Humm, I thought the Moguls went in Egypt. I’ll see.

“Yeah, buddy, you need to learn some more history. It was actually the Aztecs under Charlemagne who burned the library after defeating king Ashoka!”

I’m just Human… and I think you should learn more about government, and Empire vs. Civilization….

Anyway, what kind of enchant knowledge was rediscovered example: Like the Roman Coliseum, Coliseum or a dome like that was not built in till the 20th sentry. Or the pill, the pill was invented by the Chinese, or toothpaste it was invited by the Egyptians or the Mouthwash it was inverted by the Romans (they both clean your teeth).

Or  the steam engines was built 2000 yeas be for, self-opening doors were in Sci-Fi and the Greeks had it 2000 years before we had any thing like that. The “first self-opening doors” its actually the second self-opening doors, It was I think 1970s were you had to step on an button and it opens (its all mechanical).



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“Caesar si viveret, ad remum dareris”
“--If Caesar were alive, you'd be chained to an oar.”

"game over!! man game over!!"


Posted By: Cywr
Date Posted: 14-Oct-2005 at 09:18
Today papyrus is almost extinct: this shows that a civilization which was solely dependent upon it might have had problems.


I tend to think it was the other way round, that papyrus cultivation was dependant on demand for it.
Take away the demand, and there is little incentive for cultivation, and your left with whatever is in the wild, which is then in competition with other cultivated plants as humans seek to expand the amoung of land under cultuivation along the Nile valley.
Incidently, the Egyptians also made scrolls out of hemp at a later date, before deciding that pulp paper was better. So even if papyrus had become extinct, you still have alternatives within the same basic technological framework.

I meant Some form of paper. But yes the Romans had papyrus and some other types if I’m not mistaken, they even rote on wood chips that can be fond today….


Writting on wood chips isn't the same as the paper we use today dude. And anyways, the first paper was made from scraps of cotton and hemp, not wood chips, that resource was introduced to the industry relativly later. The Romans didn't make paper out of the pulp process that most people use these days.


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Arrrgh!!"


Posted By: Maju
Date Posted: 14-Oct-2005 at 09:37
Originally posted by Decebal

Originally posted by Praetorian

The Romans did have paper too, every buddy had some form of paper….

The Romans used papyrus from Egypt, which was dependent uopn the cultivation of that particular plant. Today papyrus is almost extinct: this shows that a civilization which was solely dependent upon it might have had problems. Besides, papyrus paper was fairly easy to produce out of the plant. The Chinese invented paper, which could be made out of almost any wood or fabric and which is the end result of a relatively advanced technological process



Papyrus can be cultivated and in fact it's aboundantly used in gardening, particularly to decorate ponds.

Anyhow, Ancient peoples weren't so dependant on papyrus: after some Hellenistic conflict between Egypt and Pergamum, the latter, ahving lost their supply of papyrus fiber, invented the pergamine, made from hides. Pergamine was also used for long in Ancient and Medieval times, till the concept of paper arrived to the west.


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NO GOD, NO MASTER!


Posted By: Cywr
Date Posted: 14-Oct-2005 at 09:51
Pergamine?
I know what your talking about, but isn't that called Vellum (at least in English)?

It was the dominant book making material before paper became widespread, and continued to be used afterwards as it is superior to paper in many ways, save ecomonics (expensive and impossible to mass produce on the scale of paper).


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Arrrgh!!"


Posted By: Maju
Date Posted: 14-Oct-2005 at 09:56
Originally posted by Praetorian

At the height of its power Greece or Spain were not independent they were under the Roman rule, there are Roman buildings in those countries and Romans built some of there cites.  Nordic people were not primitive, and as for Northern Africa most of it were taken from the Greeks by the Romans and the Greeks were not primitive.


You're correct in Greece and Spain not being inependent. Anyhow, Spain as such was sufficiently backwards and unorganized to be much of a challenge to Rome, only under Phoenician direction they did something of the like.

Nordic people were very primitive compared with the Mediterranean regions at that time. The only thing in which they excelled was in mounted warfare: they did eventually came to have the best cavalry of Europe and that's why Germans were able to take over the remnants of Rome and even defeat the Huns.

On North Africa, it was mostly under Phoenician and later Roman rule. Let's not be so Eurocentric and let's admit that Phoenicians played an important role in propagating technology and culture all over the Mediterranean and even in the Atlantic. Anyhow, with the notable exception of Carthage and some Medieval states, Northern Africa has always been a less impressive region. Though the same can be said of Italy, actually.

Anyway, what kind of enchant knowledge was rediscovered example: Like the Roman Coliseum, Coliseum or a dome like that was not built in till the 20th sentry.

Domes were built after Romans, at least in Renaissance but surely too in Medieval times (I'm not sure). The coliseum wasn't reproduced probably because Christian culture did not practice such kind of festivals. Instead they built Gothic cathedrals and stuff like that.

Or  the steam engines was built 2000 yeas be for, self-opening doors were in Sci-Fi and the Greeks had it 2000 years before we had any thing like that. The “first self-opening doors” its actually the second self-opening doors, It was I think 1970s were you had to step on an button and it opens (its all mechanical).

Ok, I back from my earlier skeptic remarks. Anyhow the steam engine served no practical purpose and was just a scientifical fancy, and about the same can be said of the self-opening doors. Greco-Roman civilization never developed any practical machine out of those ingenious inventions. I find more interesting Roman public baths or Minoan plumbing, things that did serve a practical purpose and were largely lost after them.

Greeks anyhow did have a pretty advanced science and ingenious technology but that can't be merited on Romans. It must be given merit to Greeks, which is a diferent culture.



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NO GOD, NO MASTER!


Posted By: Decebal
Date Posted: 14-Oct-2005 at 10:36
Originally posted by Praetorian

Your talking about civilizations and influents not an Empire or an government and people,  the Roman Empire fell in 475 AD some say 500 AD or even 615 AD. China was divided in different kingdoms and governments… China is an civilization but so were the kingdoms Gust like the Greek city state. But an Empire would be like the Han, get it? Its like saying if the Soviet Empire was the same as the Russian Empire, there not. Or saying all the German reichs are the same. And if the Romans fell in 1453 AD well I can say there still around because of the Vatican, they have a seat in the UN. You can say the Vatican is a continue of the Romans.

Well then, if you insist on defining Empires according to the system of government, then for one thing, the Roman empire would start in 31BC. If you insist on territorial continuity, then it ends in 395AD, the date of its partition. And then, do we talk about a Flavian Empire, a Severin Empire or an Antonin empire, according to the ruling dynasty? No, it is still the same empire, ruled by various dynasties. We can see a continuity in the style of government and in the culture of the people. In general, people say that the Roman empire had a continuity from 31BC to 615AD, although technically, the Byzantines were also Romans.

In the same way, we can talk about a continuity between the Ch'ing, Han, Wei, Sui, T'ang and Song dynasties. They shared the same style of government, the same culture, the same language. It was really a continous Chinese empire. There was one period: that of the 3 warring kingdoms, where some have argued that it was an interruption in the Chinese empire. But the Wei dynasty controlled over 70% of China at the time, and I really don't see this period as all that different than the period when the Western and Eastern Roman Empires coexisted. Yes, the Song dynasty had lost the north of China to Turkish invaders. But isn't this really similar to the way the Roman Empire lost various provinces to barbarians while still continuing on existing?

What I'm saying is that if we apply the same criteria for the continuity of the Roman Empire to China, we'll see that the Chinese Empire has a continuity from about 238BC all the way to the Mongol conquest in the middle of the 13th century.

Originally posted by Praetorian

Yes China and most the other nations in the world do have an continuous empire…. But a continuous empire and ONE EMPIRE is much different.  You see China were like the Greek city states, China had different kingdoms in it.  An Empire is were you conquer another Kingdome or civilization… but saying if China was an Empire is ALMOST like say if Europe is an Empire (if they be come one country) or I can say that Europe is an continuous empire, get what I mean? There were defiant empires in Europe but not the European Empire.  So if an Government or an kingdom takes another (with in the Country) its not necessarily the Chinese Empire or the Greek empire, it was all propaganda to unite the conquered people with in the country.  You see when the Rome united Italy  it was not the Italian Empire but it was the Roman Empire.   And besides the US government is older then the Chinese government, but the Chinese civilization is older then the USA. Do you get what I’m saying with all this?

You really need to learn more about Chinese history before you lecture me, buddy! China had a city states organization like the Greeks?  In China there were several people and nations, and the people that are commonly referred to as the Hans controlled the rest of the people under various dynasties. The organization of the Chinese empire was not really different from that of the Roman empire.

Originally posted by Praetorian

“When Greece or Spain were independent, the Romans were not overpowered. I'm talking about the Roman Empire at the height of its power. You also quoted me out of context, since I then talked about the surrounding states in Northern Europe and Northern Africa, which were primitive.”

At the height of its power Greece or Spain were not independent they were under the Roman rule, there are Roman buildings in those countries and Romans built some of there cites.  Nordic people were not primitive, and as for Northern Africa most of it were taken from the Greeks by the Romans and the Greeks were not primitive.

I didn't say that Greece or Spain were not under Roman rule when the Roman empire was at the height of its power. That was precisely my point: when the Romans were at the height of their power the only independent nations surrounding them were either primitive tribes in Northern Europe (Germans, Sarmathians, Picts), primitive tribes in Northern Africa (Berbers) and the Parthians/Sassanians. The Germans, Sarmathians, Picts and Berbers were quite primitive compared to the Romans (not the Sassanians though). All the relatively civilized areas in the mediterranean basin were under Roman domination, and this gave them a huge advantage over their forementioned adversaries.

When Greece, Spain, Egypt were independent, the Romans were not overpowered. During their wars with Carthage, the Romans came rather close to annihilation. Besides their military prowess,  the reason why they suceeded in conquering the mediterranean basin was that through shrewd diplomacy they managed to deal with their adversaries one at a time, avoiding grand coalitions against them.

My point is that until they reached the height of their power, after Augustus, they were not overpowered. Afterwards, they were only overpowered compared to their primitive neighbors in Europe and Africa, and not compared to the Parthians/Sassanians, with whom they have never managed to achieve anything more than an equilibrium.

Originally posted by Praetorian

“The former is an absurd claim: Mongols never reached Egypt and anyhow it's thought that the famous library was probably burned by Caesar (or at least that what Plutarch claims). See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Library_of_Alexandria%20/%20Destruction_of_the_Great_Library - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Library_of_Alexandria#Destructi on_of_the_Great_Library

Humm, I thought the Moguls went in Egypt. I’ll see.

“Yeah, buddy, you need to learn some more history. It was actually the Aztecs under Charlemagne who burned the library after defeating king Ashoka!”

I’m just Human… and I think you should learn more about government, and Empire vs. Civilization….

You should learn to read posts carefully and think before you write. And you need to learn more about the history of the rest of the world.



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What is history but a fable agreed upon?
Napoleon Bonaparte

Even if you are a minority of one, the truth is the truth.- Mohandas Gandhi



Posted By: Imperator Invictus
Date Posted: 14-Oct-2005 at 11:02
Rome was obviously not the most overpowered empire in history. In fact, Rome was smaller than then Persian Empire that existed 400 years earlier.  The Romans also controlled a fewer percentage of the world's population than Alexander's empire earlier. Saying that the Roman were the most advanced civilization in history is also absured too.

The Han and Rome were comparable empires. The difference is that the Roman Empire in the west collapsed and the Han Empire was revived.

In fact, Rome also had a three kingdoms period from 235 to 285. By your earlier definition for the Han empire, the Roman empire only lasted 200 years.


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Posted By: Maju
Date Posted: 14-Oct-2005 at 11:12
Originally posted by Cywr

Pergamine?
I know what your talking about, but isn't that called Vellum (at least in English)?


It's pergaminus in Latin (I think) and pergamino in Spanish, so I thought English would use also a Latin-borrowed term. It seems it's not the same Latin word though.


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NO GOD, NO MASTER!


Posted By: Dalsung Hwarang
Date Posted: 27-Oct-2005 at 00:10
WOW! I just learned so many new things about the Romans in just this one topic...

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"He who seeks death shall live, and he who seeks life shall die." --Admiral Yi.



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