Mediterranean Muslims: Bosniaks
Printed From: History Community ~ All Empires
Category: Regional History or Period History
Forum Name: Ancient Mediterranean and Europe
Forum Discription: Greece, Macedon, Rome and other cultures such as Celtic and Germanic tribes
URL: http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=5625
Printed Date: 22-May-2024 at 21:28
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Topic: Mediterranean Muslims: Bosniaks
Posted By: Mila
Subject: Mediterranean Muslims: Bosniaks
Date Posted: 17-Sep-2005 at 12:14
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Bosniaks live primarily in Bosnia and Herzegovina and a region
of Serbia known as the Sandzak. They are the descendants of members of
the Bosnian Church; a distinct form of Christianity which was aligned
neither with Rome nor Constantinople. The Bosniaks left tombstones
throughout the country called stecci which are found nowhere else on
earth. Stecci tombstones in the village of Dejcici, near Sarajevo:  At the beginning of the Ottoman Empire in this part of the world, Bosniaks were being targetted for extermination by both the Catholic forces of the Vatican and Eastern Orthodox missionaries from Serbia. This is why, historians believe, Bosnians converted so enthusiastically to Islam after being conquered by the Ottoman Empire. A sort of 'hiding between big brother's legs' response. The oldest mosque in the Bosnian city of Bihac is a unique example of this process. It was converted into a mosque when the people of what was then a town converted to Islam. What makes the Bihac mosque so unique is, firstly, the original church was a Bosnian Church. Secondly, the church was converted into a mosque within a single lifetime of being built so many of the same people who helped build it certainly helped convert it:  It's interesting to note, however, that the Bosniaks fought off the empire almost 100 years longer than their neighbors in the region. The Queen of Bosnia at the time, Katarina Velika (Catherine the Great), refused to recognize the Ottoman Empire, screaming "This is Bosnia and I am her Queen!" from the belltower of St. Luke's Bosnian Church in Jajce, the Bosnian capital at the time. It became a famous battlecry. Her heretical beliefs were forgiven by the Vatican and she was allowed to flee to Rome, where she died. Jajce, Bosnia's old capital. The yellow arrow points to the old St. Luke's Church, where Katarina's body now lies. The pink arrow points towards the new St. Luke's Church, which will feature a museum of Bosnia's Christian heritage. The green arrows point to the city's most famous mosques:  Bosniaks were, for centuries, among the Ottoman Empires most dedicated supporters. They were the only Muslims in the whole of the Ottoman Empire to insist their sons be taken and trained for the Sultan's armies as well. At the end of the Ottoman Empire, Bosniaks led the collapse in this region. The city of Gradacac became the center of the Bosniak independence movement which speak to Serbia, Kosovo, and Albania at roughly the same time. The leader of the Bosniak rebellion, Husein-kapetan Gradaščević, cried: "God I fear slightly, the Sultan not at all, and the Grand Vizier no more than my own horse." The Bosniak form of Islam was, and remains today, very secular, with strong Sufi and Hanafi traditions. It also has weak connections to the former Bosnian church, especially in terms of how Bosniaks bury their dead. Bosniak's traditional burried their dead without any rhyme or reason. The separation of life and death was blurred, and bodies were placed on any patch of open earth - even in the middle of town:   However, it is also very spiritual. Surveys have shown that a large percentage of Bosniaks (78%) are "spiritually satisfied", the highest percentage of any people, of any faith, polled. Here is a little look at Bosniaks, their fashion, their lifestyle, and their architecture... The re-opening of the Sultan's Mosque in Plav-Gusinje, 2005:    Bosmal City Center, Sarajevo:  Marshall Tito Boulevard, Sarajevo:  Ferhadija Street, Sarajevo:  The red-tile suburbs of Sarajevo:  Graduation at the Tuzla Medresa, Tuzla:  Preparing a meal in Dejcici village, near Sarajevo:  Random shots of girls in Sarajevo by online nightlife sites:      Contestants in the Miss Bosnia 2005 pageant:   Selma Sejtanic:  Emina Jahovic:  Zvejzdana Sehovic:  Mariana Kvasina:   Irna Smaka, Miss Bosnia 2003:   More random shots from downtown Sarajevo:               The village of Pocitelj:   Photo by Harun:  The Rimski Most, or 'Roman Bridge', Sarajevo:  The old East End of Sarajevo:            ------------- |
Replies:
Posted By: ill_teknique
Date Posted: 17-Sep-2005 at 18:49
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now im not the only bosnian here anymore
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Posted By: Mila
Date Posted: 17-Sep-2005 at 21:01
And you're from Cazin, which is just gorgeous! I've stayed at the Hotel Una there.  LOL------------- |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 25-Sep-2005 at 20:45
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Selam raja... there is a 3id Bosnian here but she doesn't post much
yeah.. these photos are wonderful... are you in this picture Mila
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Posted By: ill_teknique
Date Posted: 25-Sep-2005 at 21:39
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merhaba akhi cazin is good, i like stari grad in velika kladusa too. ------------- |
Posted By: strategos
Date Posted: 25-Sep-2005 at 21:46
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Serb 37.1%, Bosniak 48%, Croat 14.3%, other 0.6% (2000) What exactly is Republika Srpska, who controls this? ------------- http://theforgotten.org/intro.html |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 26-Sep-2005 at 18:58
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Beautiful pics, especially the women. Are the Bosniaks a mix of Serbs and Croatians that are muslim? |
Posted By: Mila
Date Posted: 26-Sep-2005 at 21:14
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Strategos: Republika Srpska is controlled by Bosnian Serbs, with very
close ties to Serbia. It is the half of the country where all Muslims
and Catholics were killed or driven away during the war. DRAKON: No. In fact, it's only since the 1900s that Bosnian Catholics have called themselves Croats, and since the 1750s that Bosnian Orthodox Christians have called themselves Serbs. Before that, they were simply Bosnian. Even today, Bosnian Croats and Bosnian Serbs speak Bosnian, as opposed to proper Croatian or Serbian. All the regional/religious differences that Muslims have, they have as well. ------------- |
Posted By: Mila
Date Posted: 26-Sep-2005 at 21:19
   Erna Bibuljica, Miss Novi Pazar. Here's her hometown:     ------------- |
Posted By: Hak-Khan
Date Posted: 27-Sep-2005 at 20:03
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i have a bosnian friends who's family escaped from serbs in Çanakkale,
they were always talking about themes like those shots above, but id
never dreamed what a look like about scenes im fascinated now ------------- |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 03-Oct-2005 at 18:59
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Do the Bosnians consider themselves descendants of the Illyrians? Btw, which one of these beautiful ladies do you look like? I may have to visit Bosnia one day. |
Posted By: çok geç
Date Posted: 03-Oct-2005 at 19:24
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I thought Bosninas are also southern slavs and Albanians are the descendants of the Illyirans. ------------- D.J. Kaufman Wisdom is the reward for a lifetime of listening ... when youd have preferred to talk. |
Posted By: Mila
Date Posted: 03-Oct-2005 at 21:42
Yes, you're right. Whether or not Albanians are the descendants of Illyrians is still questioned, though mainly by Eastern Orthodox experts and historians, with whom there is some historical/political bias. Likewise, it is mainly Catholic and Muslim experts and historians that point blank accept that Albanians are the descendants of Illyrians. In fact, Croatia commissioned the most widely respected historical, linguistic, genetic study that "proves" this. Most world historians argue there is certainly a straight line between Albanians and Illyrians, but that all people of the Balkans absorbed the Illyrians in some form or another. Bosniaks, like Croats and Serbs, are descendant from Slavs that settled here in the 6th and 7th centuries. ------------- |
Posted By: TheodoreFelix
Date Posted: 03-Oct-2005 at 22:47
Replace "Orthodox" with just Serbs. Thats for the reason of Kosovo however. I havnt met many others who support this. I havnt met any follower of the Orthodox faith in Albania who believed this. Your generilization is rather creepy. You definitely hint off at something, something offensive, since half my family is of Orthodox heritage and Albanian....
Catholics and muslims have nothing to do with it. Alexander Stipcevic, was a scientist of Croat origin. No way does he constitute what "Catholics" say. And I dunno What muslims have to say nor what business they have in it. This is not the discussion of muslims, catholics and orthodox. But the discussion of linguisists, ethnologists, historians etc., people involved in the real world.  ------------- |
Posted By: Zagros
Date Posted: 04-Oct-2005 at 07:19
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From what I gathered she said that eastern/orthodox NAMELY Serbs and Greeks will say that Albanians are not descended from Illyrians. ------------- |
Posted By: vulkan02
Date Posted: 05-Oct-2005 at 01:50
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Wow... thats sizzling... Do you look like that too Mila, are these two your friends or something??... if yes we can meet im not going to hit on you that much just hook me up with one of them .------------- The beginning of a revolution is in reality the end of a belief - Le Bon Destroy first and construction will look after itself - Mao |
Posted By: malizlato
Date Posted: 21-Nov-2005 at 15:41
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History of Bosnia is old,ancient and (unfortunately)unknown to most of
the people. Bosnia as any other country had it's own king and queen,
Bosnia as any other country had it's own money,Bosnia as any other
country had it's own culture. Culture that is older than some worlds
leading countries. The sadliest thing in history of Bosnia is that
We always too much believe people around us. That's our blessing,that's
our cursedness.
------------- In ancient times there was a kingdom of Bosnia...and it will rise again |
Posted By: malizlato
Date Posted: 21-Nov-2005 at 21:15
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Well,let's start from the beginning. Some members of Slavic tribes decided to live in region that native people called Bosniae (name given from same named river). As time passed natives alredy have melted with newcomers. Soon enough first state was formed
(Bosnian land prior to year 1000.)
Naturally, because they belong to same ethnic group, Bosnians (not Bosniaks) started traffic and merchantry with neighbourhood. As they found,upon their arrival, literated people, Bosnians soon started to use Roman letters and writting. First patron or Bosnian leader was Ban Boric (1154-1167). However he was under rule of Byzantium emperor Constantin Porfirogenet, emperor who in his book „De administrando imperio“ describes lands that he owns. For the first time he anounces country called „Horion Bosona/Bosniae“, and that is considered as first foreign document of Bosnian existence. He also declares Bosnia by country of a brave warriors. Together with literacy Bosnians have accepted a brand new religion of those times, Christianity. Without well developed own language and writing, people were in one way forced to serve the masses and all other religic ceremonials in Latin language and writing. Soon enough (Bosnians are not stupid  In the beginning Bosnian religious life was under patronate of Pope of Rome, but soon enough people started to serve masses in their native(Slavic) language.After that they have made kind of separation from Rome and fresh formed Catholic church. They called themselves Bogumils. It's important to say that first well-known king, Ban Kulin (1180-1204) was also bogumil. Naturally that was not wellcomed by Pope so he ordered war against bogumils and he forced Ban Kulin to reject bogumilism in favor of catholicism. As Kulin's army was not able to win the war Ban accepted terms of Pope.  .Altar in Bogumils church ( Cerkva Bosanskih Krstjana) To be continued..... ------------- In ancient times there was a kingdom of Bosnia...and it will rise again |
Posted By: the Bulgarian
Date Posted: 22-Nov-2005 at 09:23
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You're absolutely right, except for the "Macedonian Slavs" part. Such a thing didn't exist. There were no recordings of a "Macedonian nation" in Byzantine, Serb or Bulgarian sources for more then 1300 years. Every time these sources state that the population of Macedonia is prodominantly Bulgarian + some Byzantines (Greeks) living around the Aegan coast. The modern Macedonian nation was "invented" by Tito and the Comintern. Such an act of a forecuful creating of a nation is something not uncommon of the brutal Communist regimes - Moldavians are infact Romanians, Carelians are Finns (not so sure about this one), etc. The Serbs also tried to convinse the Bosnians that they were merely Muslim Serbs, by destorting the historical trueth + a hole lot of brutality. Luckily the heroic Bosnians withstood 70 years of Serb occupation and teror and didn't lose their identity, something most Macedonians failed to achieve. No matter, after the collapse of Yugoslavia Macedonia has slowely began to rediscover its true identity. |
Posted By: erci
Date Posted: 22-Nov-2005 at 09:35
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edited by request, sorry for disturbing |
Posted By: Phallanx
Date Posted: 22-Nov-2005 at 10:57
Instead of sarcasm, all you had to do was pay some attention to the two previous posts, then you'd probably understand the issue better. While there were a couple of attempts to construct history prior to 1900, like that of Vinko Pribojevic in the 16th cent. that tried to connect the Croats to the Illyrians, the communists did top them all off with their attempts to re-construct history.. There is no doubt that the former communistic regimes, intended and did attempt to construct a past for their people. A past that had never been previously recorded nor are there nor have there ever been any memories nor cultural connections to the ancients they now claim to be decendants of... I do honestly doubt that this notion is only supported by Eastern Orthodox Christians and the very suggestion is quite annoying, since I know of a number of Serb archeologists that have openly supported that the Illyrians are connected to Albanians.. the most discussed being M. Garasanin who dared to express such a connection in the difficult era of 55'. Interestingly enough, the Albanian Academy of Science of Tirana didn't make any such claims untill 82' when they published a book about Albanian origins and their territories, claiming Kosovo as their land of origin. Anyway, the sad conclusion is that politics has put it's hand in historic issues far too many times, when these issues should have been left to real historians as Iskander so correctly pointed out.. ------------- To the gods we mortals are all ignorant.Those old traditions from our ancestors, the ones we've had as long as time itself, no argument will ever overthrow, in spite of subtleties sharp minds invent. |
Posted By: malizlato
Date Posted: 22-Nov-2005 at 13:40
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So let we continue.... After this unfortunate intervention from Pope and with accepting of Catholicism, part of Bosnians decides instead of Catholicism to pass to Orthodox religious belief. Yet they still were Bosnians just catholics or orthodox. By the end of 10'th century Bosnia is under the rule of Byzantium Empire,whose influence in that moment beginns to rapidly fall. At year 1025. after the death of Byzantium emperor Vasil II, starts the definitive fall of Byzant's domination on Balkan peninsula.  Bosnia at year 1100. In the same time with feeling of Byzantium fall Ungarian Kingdom started several millitary campaings against dying Byzant. At those times Bosnian king fights on Ungarian side because he believed that if he helps to Ungarians they will leave his country alone. From those times there is a testimony of Byzant chronicle writer Kinamos who in describing of Bosnian king says "When he was near river Sava he turned his forces to river they call Drina,river that divides land of Bosnia from the Serbian land of Raška.And Bosnia IS NOT under the rule of great Despot of Serbs,but IT'S FREE and FOR IT'S OWN,with the people with OWN language and with the people WITH OWN KING and WAY OF LIFE...."(Jo.Connamis,Historiarum epitome.lib III 7,A.Meineke,Bonnae,1836).  Bosnia at year 1200. Somwhere in between 1241-42, started great Tatar invasion on Ungaria.That situation is used by Croats who want's to widhdraw themselves from Ungarian state. They started a war against Ungarian king Bela IV. In that effort Croats had help from Bosnian Ban Ninoslav at year of 1243. That fact opened confrotation between Bosnia and Ungaria, confrotation that Bosnia lost. On Bosnian throne comes Ban Prijezda and puts himself under total rule of Ungaria. Yet he is not controling all Bosnian teritory. At that moment Bosnia is under dual rule between Ban Prijezda and Ban Stjepan Kotromanić (founder of Kotromanić royal family). At year 1322, Ban Stjepan II Kotromanić permanently annihilate duality and he became one and only Bosnian king. As very smart man he starts one of greatest developments in Bosnian history. Roads are builted, first hospitals, army is well trained, economy is rising. On intervention of Pope he allowed to Franciscan order to built monasteries, schools. Number of monasteries has grown so rapidly that they formed first vicaracy in Bosnia, fourth in Europe and they called it BOSNA SREBRNA (Bosnia of Silver), which in later Bosnian history had significant role. At year 1353 Stjepan dies and to his dauphin, Tvrtko I, leaves well constituted state. In the moment when he accepted Bosnian throne Tvrtko had only 15 years, and in the beginning he had a lot of problems with some parts of Bosnian noble families. Cause they believed he was to young, Ungaria and later Serbia started war against Tvrtko but were defeated without many Bosnian victims. In next 40 years Bosnia became strongiest state on Balkans.  Bosnia at year 1400. And then......then devil himself came to take his toll on Bosnia. Exhausted with internal and fights with Ungarians Bosnia became weak state to things that are about to come. And that was Osmanlic invasion on Balkan peninsula. to be continued.... ------------- In ancient times there was a kingdom of Bosnia...and it will rise again |
Posted By: Yugoslav
Date Posted: 30-Oct-2010 at 09:15
Yeah, right.  ------------- "I know not with what weapons World War 3 will be fought, but World War 4 will be fought with sticks and stones." |
Posted By: opuslola
Date Posted: 30-Oct-2010 at 17:12
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Taken from the opener of this thread;
"Bosniaks were, for centuries, among the Ottoman Empires most dedicated supporters. They were the only Muslims in the whole of the Ottoman Empire to insist their sons be taken and trained for the Sultan's armies as well." Well, you, whom ever and where ever you are today, must be referring to the Varangian Guard, which was a group that did not ever recruit Moslem children unless it was done via fraud! And, as a matter of fact, since the first so called Bosnian Chruch/Mosque shows directly that a mineret was part of the original design, then you must consider whether or not such a structure was originally designed there? Maybe the "prophet", actually began his work in the same area? It seems that there exists some suggestion that the Ottomans, at least, were first prevalent to the North of Byzantium/Constantinople since the attack came not from the South, or East but from the North and West! ------------- http://www.quotationspage.com/subjects/history/ |
Posted By: Cryptic
Date Posted: 31-Oct-2010 at 09:09
The building shows clear church design of the Romance period archeitecture with a gothic church influence on the door. Note the small stained glass window. This stained glass is not normally a design feature of mosques. Also the door has an arch that is very common in gothic church archeitecture.
The minaret may have been started as a bell tower. Since bell towers were not needed for worship per se, it was not unusual for them to be completed in stages and not to be finished untill a generation or two ( or a century or more for some big cathederals) after the main church building.
As an example closer to home, the bell tower of the historic Catholic church in Savannah, Georgia was never finished.
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Posted By: opuslola
Date Posted: 31-Oct-2010 at 17:30
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Yes Cryptic, there is a pointed arch, which is also common in Persia! Yes there also appears to be a circular possibly stained glass window!
But, the rest of the structure, as far as I can see in the photo presented is a plain stone structure that appears to be in the shape of only a rectangle? Perhaps there exists other views of this structure which would enable me to make further comments? Also,if you notice, the exterior of the stone work of the "bell tower?" or "Minaret" seems to have been somewhat disfigured or some attempt was made to erase some of the stone facings! It is obvious that the tower looked somewhat different at one time, and even the lower engravings seem to be somewhat fresh as opposed to the rest of the facing structure? It is most easy to suggest that this was merely an unfinished "bell tower", later turned into a minaret, but it most difficult to prove such! Perhaps it would be easier for all of us if the photo on page one was transferred to this page for remarks? I just do not have the computer ability to do so! Regards, ------------- http://www.quotationspage.com/subjects/history/ |
Posted By: medenaywe
Date Posted: 22-Feb-2011 at 05:53
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Before they changed religion they were "Bogomil's".That do not mean different blood substrate than the rest of population. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bogomilism http://www.reformedreader.org/history/brockett/bogomils.htm |