Really?? Do you know where the Asiatic features come from?? Here is a link:

http://www.eki.ee/books/redbook/lithuanian_tatars.shtml - http://www.eki.ee/books/redbook/lithuanian_tatars.shtml

Cool i am neolithic! sweet! But I don't understand? Oh well my luck..... But my great-grandmother looked more asiatic than european. She had a very small nose. High cheek bones, and slanted eyes (looked like fat) Plus that is so long ago there were many invaders.

Originally posted by Maju Originally posted by HistoryGuy Does anyone know where olive skin dark eyes and black straight hair in Poland come from?? I know the majority of the Polish population has fair skin. My great-grandparents looked like this.... Do these people come from the Tatars?? I don't think so. Most likely those traits are direct descendants from Neolithic colonists originary from the Balcans (via Danube basin), who were the major culture of Poland in the 5th, 4th and 3rd milennia BCE. The following principal components (PCs) of the European genome, PC1 (the most important) and PC4, can be associated with Neolithic migrations and "Mediterranean" types (in a broad sense). As you can see, for the same latitudes, they are more dense in Central-Eastern Europe than in the West. (Please, disregard the arbitrary adjectives under the PC title: both components, through from different origins can be tagged equally as Neolithic).

what i mostly hate in this forum is try to explain with those so-called genetical maps Not ANY country is 100% greek, neoliwibullsh*t. If i look at that map, im a greek too, do greeks have cheeck bones, chinese eyes, yellow skin like mine? If yes, im a greek too but ill guess it isnt so pls dont post such nationalistic idea's! Youll make that genetical map if you have the total results of the people whos livin in whole that country, not from a big city, or simply from an village...

So tatars are neolithic?  Who are neolithics? Whats there history? What ethnic people are they now? How it comes that tatars have asiatic features? How it comes blabalbalbalablbal

• Balcanic-Danubian, that extended inland first to the Balcans and then to the Danubian area and further (Germany, Low Countries, Northern France, Czec Republic, Poland and even Western Ukraine and Moldavia), related to pre-Sesklo and Sesklo itself.
  
• Mediterranean, that extended mainly through the coasts of southern Europe, first to the Adriatic and southern Italy, then to the rest of Italy and mediterranean France and Spain. This wave is related to proto-Sesklo culture and maybe to Biblos subculture as well.
  

Ok, now we all forget about genetic maps (sorry but I considder this too to be nationalistic crap) and turn on real history.

here an excerpt from Polish Armies 1569-1696 (2):

apart from that, there are also traces of Arabs in Switzerland since the early middle ages, I wonder how the genetic maps can provide an explanation for that...

hahah

Originally posted by Scytho-Sarmatian With our Asiatic influence, I think we Polish would at the very least make better sushi chefs than say, English, French, or Greeks. ...or Neolithics.

sorry im off topic but isnt Sushi a Japanese or chinese food?

There is still ver small Tatar minority in Poland and most of them still worship Allah. But they are far from islamic extremists. Some of the Tatars were even allowed into ranks of polish nobility.

In the 18th century some of the polish Tatars also served as uhlans in the Saxon army.

http://vial.jean.free.fr/new_npi/revues_npi/28_2002/npi_2802/28_saxon_uhl.htm - http://vial.jean.free.fr/new_npi/revues_npi/28_2002/npi_2802 /28_saxon_uhl.htm

First Ulahn troops appeared in Saxon army in 1730, when two companies of Polish-style light horses were raised, each of about 120 men ( http://vial.jean.free.fr/new_npi/revues_npi/28_2002/npi_2802/28_saxon_uhl.htm#note2" name=rtn2>(2) and http://vial.jean.free.fr/new_npi/revues_npi/28_2002/npi_2802/28_saxon_uhl.htm#note4" name=rtn4>(4) ).

Uhlan from Red Company and officer from Blue. Illustration from http://vial.jean.free.fr/new_npi/revues_npi/28_2002/npi_2802/28_saxon_uhl.htm#note2" name=rtn2>(2) .

Uhlans were dressed in Polish-styled white coats with lining, breeches and undercoat in companies color: red and blue. They were armed with a sabre, pike with red-white or white-blue vane and a pare of pistols. Some Uhlans had Tartarian bows.

Uhlan troops were on intermediate state and did not belonged either to the Saxon regular army or to the army of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth. I believe, that they were irregular troops on Saxon service. They stationed in Poland and were used for patrol and courier duties. During the war of Polish Succession 1733-35 Uhlans stayed loyal to the Wettin dynasty in contrast to the most of Polish-Lithuanian armed forces. Schuster and Francke mentioned that during the campaign of 1734 2 Fahnen of Polish light horses acted with Chevaulegers under lieutenant-colonel count Bitum (evidently later Prinz Karl Chevaulegers) http://vial.jean.free.fr/new_npi/revues_npi/28_2002/npi_2802/28_saxon_uhl.htm#note4" name=rtn4>(4) .

After the end of hostilities in 1735 the Uhlan troops survived and their number was increased. Jahns wrote that by 1740 Saxon army included 7 Fahnens of Uhlans, each was of 3 officers, 34 Towarczys (a knight or noble) and 34 Pocztowi (knecht or private) http://vial.jean.free.fr/new_npi/revues_npi/28_2002/npi_2802/28_saxon_uhl.htm#note3" name=rtn3>(3) , while Schuster and Francke give the strength of Saxon Uhlans in 1740 of 12 fahnen under the command of Colonel von Bledowsky http://vial.jean.free.fr/new_npi/revues_npi/28_2002/npi_2802/28_saxon_uhl.htm#note4" name=rtn4>(4) . On 1 Jan 1741 a 13th fahnen was added, on 1 May 1741 a 14th and 15th fahnen http://vial.jean.free.fr/new_npi/revues_npi/28_2002/npi_2802/28_saxon_uhl.htm#note4" name=rtn4>(4) (after http://vial.jean.free.fr/new_npi/revues_npi/28_2002/npi_2802/28_saxon_uhl.htm#note3" name=rtn3>(3) only 14 in 1741). Evidently they operated together under common command of colonel Bledowsky (Blentowski, Belwedowski) because Tessin shows them in 1740-42 as a single regiment http://vial.jean.free.fr/new_npi/revues_npi/28_2002/npi_2802/28_saxon_uhl.htm#note6" name=rtn6>(6) .

Schuster and Francke wrote that each man of a Uhlan Fahne received for his armament a pictol and cartridge box, every common Uhlan also received a carbine. Each individual was responsible for providing is own sabre and lance. The uniform in about 1740 was white with blue facings. The Uhlans were especially recruited in Lithuania and from Tartars. During peacetime they were used to secure the roads between Saxony and Warsaw, and to occupy the Salt Work at Wieliczka, and at the same time used with regular Saxon Cheveauxleger Regiments. The staff of a Uhlan Fahne in the Fall of 1741 from Schuster and Francke differs a little from Jan's one: 1 Rittmeister, 1 Lieutenant, 1 Cornet, 1 Kettledrummer, each with a Pocztowi (private), 46 Towarczys (Polish nobles), 46 Pocztowi (privates), together 100 men http://vial.jean.free.fr/new_npi/revues_npi/28_2002/npi_2802/28_saxon_uhl.htm#note4" name=rtn4>(4) .

Uhlans evidently operated with Saxon army as a recognize troops during the 1st Silesian war and in March 1743 they returned to Poland where their number was increased to a total of 23 fahnen ( http://vial.jean.free.fr/new_npi/revues_npi/28_2002/npi_2802/28_saxon_uhl.htm#note3" name=rtn3>(3) and http://vial.jean.free.fr/new_npi/revues_npi/28_2002/npi_2802/28_saxon_uhl.htm#note4" name=rtn4>(4) ). They were reorganized in three Pulk (regiments in Polish) under Colonels Bledowsky, Sychodzinsky and Wilczewsky, the first two from the original 15 fahnen and the latter from the newly created 8 fahnen http://vial.jean.free.fr/new_npi/revues_npi/28_2002/npi_2802/28_saxon_uhl.htm#note4" name=rtn4>(4) . Tessin http://vial.jean.free.fr/new_npi/revues_npi/28_2002/npi_2802/28_saxon_uhl.htm#note6" name=rtn6>(6) wrote that Sychodzinsky and Wilczewsky (Wilozewsky after Tessin) were created in 1742 so it is possible that reorganization of Uhlans was started in 1742 and completed only next year when new fahnen and recruits were added.

At the end of September 1744 3 Pulks of Uhlans (Wilczewsky, Bledowsky and Sychodzinsky) were departed for Saxony from Poland and on 2 October 1744 joined the Main army at Adorf. The fresh-created Ulan Pulk followed them in winter 1745 and on 17 May 1745 there were 4 Uhlan pulks with the Saxon Army that entered Silesia with the Austrians: Bertuszewsky of 6 fahnen, Rudnicki, Ulan and Boreslav each of 8 fahnen.

The Battle Order of the Saxon army in October 1745 includes 4 Uhlan's pulks: Belwedowski, Ulan, Rudnicki and Bertuszewski http://vial.jean.free.fr/new_npi/revues_npi/28_2002/npi_2802/28_saxon_uhl.htm#note4" name=rtn4>(4) . Did Belwedowski change Boreslav or it is the same unit I do not know. The same 4 regiments are shown in the Saxon BO at Kesselsdorf on December 15, 1745 under command of v. Sybilsky http://vial.jean.free.fr/new_npi/revues_npi/28_2002/npi_2802/28_saxon_uhl.htm#note4" name=rtn4>(4) .

After the defeat at Kesselsdorf Saxony left the WAS and about post-war development of Uhlan troops we know a little. In the middle of January 1746 they returned to Poland and Tessin wrote that 3 Uhlan regiments were disbanded in same year http://vial.jean.free.fr/new_npi/revues_npi/28_2002/npi_2802/28_saxon_uhl.htm#note6" name=rtn6>(6) while the "Plan der Koniglich Polnischen Kursachsichen Armee 1747" still mentioned in 1747 six so-called "Tartarische Fahnen" stationed in Poland and totaled 5 400 http://vial.jean.free.fr/new_npi/revues_npi/28_2002/npi_2802/28_saxon_uhl.htm#note5" name=rtn5>(5) .

Fahnen	Coat	cuffs & lapels	Vest	trousers	buttons
Blentowski	White	l. blue	l. blue	l. blue	silver
Rutonitzki	White	red	Red	red	silver
Wilzewsky	White	blue	Blue	blue	silver
Partouschewitz	White	green	Green	green	silver
Borzislawsky	White	black	White	white	silver
Ulanen	White	black	Black	black	silver

Evidently 3 Uhlan Pulks were disbanded shortly after the Saxony left the WAS but exact date is unclear. On 1 June 1754 August had 3 Pulks of Uhlans: Wilczewsky, Rudnicki and Bronikowsky http://vial.jean.free.fr/new_npi/revues_npi/28_2002/npi_2802/28_saxon_uhl.htm#note4" name=rtn4>(4) .

Fahnen	Coat	Lining color	Vest and breeches	lace	buttons
Wilczewsky	White	red	blue mourant	gold	gold
Rutonitzki	White	blue	blue mourant	gold	gold
Bronikowsky	White	yellow	blue mourant	gold	gold

By the start of the 7YW all of them stayed in Poland and did not participated in the Pirna campaign. When Saxon army was rebuilt in exile, two Pulks joined them in Hungary and operated with them in 1757-62. About 1757 Renard Uhlanen and Rudnicki Uhlanen were with a strength of 603 and 602 men respectively and 575 horses each http://vial.jean.free.fr/new_npi/revues_npi/28_2002/npi_2802/28_saxon_uhl.htm#note4" name=rtn4>(4) . They took part in several campaigns including Kolin. Wilzewsky Uhlans stayed in Poland the whole war and did not participated in any actions.

The Uhlan uniforms for 7YW period was described in http://vial.jean.free.fr/new_npi/revues_npi/28_2002/npi_2802/28_saxon_uhl.htm#note7" name=rtn7>(7) and is posted in http://vial.jean.free.fr/new_npi/courrier.htm#Uhlans - Courrier department of the NPI :

Red Pulk. Black middlehigh furcap. White overcloth with very wide and long sleeves. A little, low red upstanding collar, red turnbacks and red lining. On the collar red-white laces and the same lace on the breast where was on the right side (of the middle) 4 x 2 gilded buttons. On the turnbacks which reached halfway down the thighs were in the same red-white lace the crowned AR. Red waistcoat with red-white lacing along edges. Red baggy trousers reaching to the ankles. White-red sash.

Blue Pulk. As the red pulk, just change red with blue. Buttons silver. Sash red-white. The laces in 1-2-3. Very curved sabre in black scabbard. Brass handle and fittings. Black boots without spurs.

It is known that the pulks had brass kettle drums. Their standards were with a white cross on and the squares red or blue, on the pole a gilded button.

After the death of the August II in 1763 his successor Frederick August could not achieve the Polish Crown and shortly after this Uhlan regiments were disbanded.

The lineage of Saxon Uhlan regiments is unclear and I could not rebuild it. Various sources give different variants of the Uhlans development and transcriptions of the colonel's names.

Appendix 1.

The lineage of Saxon Uhlan regiments after Tessin http://vial.jean.free.fr/new_npi/revues_npi/28_2002/npi_2802/28_saxon_uhl.htm#note6" name=rtn6>(6) (very doubtful, especially for post-1746 development):

1740 Bledowsky Uhlanen, 1746 disbanded.

1742/1 Sychodzinsky Uhlanen, -1745 Boreslaw, 1746 disbanded.

1742/2 Wilozewsky Uhlanen, 1746 disbanded

1743 Ulan Uhlanen, 1750 Bronikowski, 1757 Renard, 1759 Schiebel 1763 disbanded.

1745/1 Rudnicki Uhlanen, 1763 disbanded.

1745/2 Bertuszewsky Uhlanen, 1766 disbanded.

Where the Ulhans Tatars too?

If it's not a coincidence, Uyshun(Uushun), Naiman, Jalair, Bahrin(Barin), Kongret(Khongrat, Onggirat) should be the most famous Turco-Mongol tribes during the time of Chinggis Khaan. Uhlan or Ulan means red in Mongolian.

I wrote a post about Khongrats yesterday, I hope it's helpful for the discussion here.

http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=6242&PN=1 - http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=6242& ;PN=1

no, Baator (Ba'atur in old Mongolian) means hero.

but Uhlan in this case comes from Turkic Oglan, which means youth IIRC.

That is interesting, but where did the Tatars in modern Poland come from? Where did they travel?

I guess that from Crimea

Here is website of Polish Tatars

http://www.tatarzy.tkb.pl/ - http://www.tatarzy.tkb.pl/

This text comes from the site of Polish Tatars, ill try to translate briefly what they say:

"Tatarzy Rzeczypospolitej, zwani te� Tatarami Wielkiego Ksi�stwa Litewskiego, w skr�cie - Tatarami litewskimi, zwi�zawszy raz na zawsze los sw�j z Polsk�, od 600 lat s� wiernymi synami nowej ojczyzny - po tatarsku - vatan. Przybywali na rozlegle ziemie W.X.L. z terytori�w Z�otej Ordy, p�niej Wielkiej Ordy, Chanatu Krymskiego, Chanatu Kaza�skiego i Astracha�skiego, pa�stw tatarskich powsta�ych po rozpadzie Z�otej Ordy.

Migracja tej ludno�ci na ziemie Rzeczypospolitej trwa�a od ko�ca XIV a� po koniec wieku XVII. Ostatnia fala emigracji mia�a miejsce ju� w wieku XX, po 1917 roku i by�a to w przewa�aj�cej mierze emigracja polityczna tatarskich dzia�aczy religijnych i narodowych, kt�rzy musieli ucieka� spod bolszewickiego terroru.

Od ko�ca wieku XVIII, poprzez wiek XIX, Tatarzy ulegali coraz wi�kszej polonizacji, zw�aszcza warstwy wy�sze - ziemia�skie, i bia�orutenizacji w wypadku drobnej szlachty zagrodowej i mieszka�c�w miast. Od tej pory mo�na ju� m�wi� o Tatarach polskich, tym bardziej, i� spora cz�� tej grupy etnicznej uczestniczy�a, zw�aszcza szlachta tatarska, w walce o Niepodleg�� Rzeczpospolit�.

Tatarami litewskimi nazywali swoich pobratymc�w z Lechistanu tak�e Tatarzy krymscy i Turcy osma�scy, a przekr�ciwszy w wyra�eniu �Lipka Tatar�ar� (�Tatarzy litewscy�) pierwsze s�owo, zrobili z tego w�asne - Tatar�w Lipk�w. Nazwy tej u�ywano potem i w dokumentach Rzeczypospolitej i w historiografii.

Istotnie, w jar�ykach (czyli poselstwach) chan�w krymskich Gerej�w do kr�l�w polskich z wieku XVI, a te� p�niejszych, spotykamy nazw� Lipka, jako zniekszta�con� w wymowie i pisowni nazw� w�asn� Litwy.

Tu zacytuj� jar�yk chana Mechmed Geraja I do Zygmunta I, datowany 22 pa�dziernika 1520 roku - oto fragment:

�Ojciec nasz Mengli Geraj, Had�i Geraj. i dawni chanowie utrzymywali przyjazne stosunki z kr�lem polskim W�adys�awem oraz z wielkim bejem lipkowskim (libkanum beyi - po tatarsku) Dawudem, a tak�e z kr�lem polskim Kazimierzem oraz z wielkim bejem lipkowskim. ��damy od kraj�w lipkowskiego i polskiego 15.000 floren�w polskich. Kraj lipkowski i polski obydwa znacz� dla nas to samo, a ich wrogowie s� i naszymi wrogami."

Wielki bej lipkowski, to oczywi�cie wielki ksi��� litewski Witold.

Od Turk�w i Tatar�w krymskich termin �Lipka� przeszed� do j�zyka polskiego i zaistnia� na r�wni z terminem "Tatar litewski". Zapo�yczenie to dokona�o si� za po�rednictwem stosunk�w dyplomatycznych. Polacy czytaj�c i s�ysz�c ze strony Tatar�w krymskich i Turk�w tego rodzaju okre�lenie Tatar�w litewskich, przyswoili sobie to s�owo i zacz�li sami go u�ywa�. Po wojnach tureckich w latach 1672 i 1678, nazwa Tatar - Lipka, zakorzeni�a si� i wesz�a w sk�ad nazewnictwa dokument�w oficjalnych.

Wielk� rol� przypisywali Tatarzy w swoich legendach ksi�ciu Witoldowi. Nazywali go Wattad, w j�zyku arabskim s�owo to oznacza obro�c� islamu i praw muzu�man�w na ziemiach niemuzu�ma�skich. Starsza forma tego imienia, Widowd, lub Witowt, u�ywana jeszcze przez historyk�w i heraldyk�w w dziewi�tnastym stuleciu, si�� zbli�e� fonetycznych, kojarzy�a si� Tatarom ze s�owem Wattad, kt�re traktowali jako synonim imienia w�asnego - Witowt.

Wielki ksi��� Witold po��czy� "przyjemne z po�ytecznym" - utworzy� z osiedli tatarskich pas obronny, wzd�u� granicy �mudzkiej i w okolicach warownych zamk�w na Litwie - obok Trok�w, Wilna, Kowna, Lidy, Krewa, Nowogr�dka, Grodna. Osadnictwo tatarskie mia�o wyra�ne znami� obronne oraz strategiczne, jako ochrona nadgraniczna przeciwko Zakonowi Krzy�ackiemu i Zakonowi Kawaler�w Mieczowych. Tatarzy litewscy uwa�ali Witolda za swego chana i obro�c�, i do ko�ca lat trzydziestych naszego stulecia wymieniali jego imi� w swoich modlitwach.

Prawa szlacheckie Tatar�w tzw. hospodarskich, zosta�y usankcjonowane i potwierdzone oficjalnie, przez dwa przywileje kr�la Zygmunta Augusta z lat 1561 i 1568 oraz przez szereg innych przywilej�w nast�pnych kr�l�w, i tak - przez Stefana Batorego z roku 1576, Zygmunta III z roku 1609, W�adys�awa IV z roku 1634, Micha�a Korybuta Wi�niowieckiego z roku 1669, oraz przez szereg konstytucji sejmowych.

Tatarzy litewscy dzielili si� na cztery grupy spo�eczne, kt�re na terenach Rzeczypospolitej, a przede wszystkim na terenach Wielkiego Ksi�stwa Litewskiego, by�y odwzorowaniem hierarchii spo�ecznej Z�otej Ordy.

Sprawa za� wygl�da�a nast�puj�co - szlachta czy arystokracja tatarska, posiadaj�ca podobne przywileje na Litwie, uzyskiwa�a po�wiadczenie szlachectwa w Z�otej Ordzie, kt�re by�o podstaw� do uzyskania szlachectwa na Litwie, m�wi�c dzisiejszym j�zykiem - po�wiadczenie szlachectwa wystawione przez chana krymskiego czy kaza�skiego by�o potwierdzane przez Wielkiego Ksi�cia Litewskiego, a p�niej przez kr�l�w i Sejm Rzeczypospolitej.

Inaczej wygl�da�a sytuacja z kniaziami tatarskimi i p�niej litewskimi. Dawna, przedrozbiorowa Rzeczpospolita jak wiemy nie uznawa�a �adnych tytu��w arystokratycznych, o ile dany r�d nie pochodzi� od jakiej� dynastii panuj�cej.

A wi�c, Tatarzy u�ywaj�cy na Litwie tytu�u kniazi�w, byli najbli�szymi krewnymi lub potomkami cz�onk�w dynastii panuj�cej w Z�otej Ordzie. By�a to pierwsza, najmniej liczna grupa tatarskiej arystokracji. Tytu�y owe zatwierdza� kr�l i sejm Rzeczpospolitej w ka�dym przypadku osobno.

Dalsz� grup� by�a szlachta tatarska, p�niej litewska, tak zwani - Tatarzy hospodarscy. W hierarchii tytularnej u Tatar�w wygl�da�o to nast�puj�co - najpierw byli kniaziowie, nosz�cy te� czasem tytu� carewicz�w, je�eli byli bliskimi krewnymi panuj�cego chana, potem w hierarchii usytuowani byli begowie lub z turecka bejowie, dalej szli murzowie (Mirza tub murza - synonim; od s�owa emir-zade - czyli dos�ownie syn Emira tj. panuj�cego), po mirzach za� nast�powali ni�si w hierarchii u�anowie - s�owo to pochodzi od s�owa oglan, lub ohlan - co oznacza ch�opiec, chwat, dzielny. Z czasem bejowie, tj. kniaziowie i carewicze, przestali u�ywa� tytu�u beja czy bega. Od XVII w. u�ywali tytu�u murza lub rnirza, jak reszta szlachty tatarskiej w Polsce.

W dalszych moich wywodach zajm� si� tak pochodzeniem herb�w tatarskiej szlachty, jak i histori�, jak�e barwn�, poszczeg�lnych rod�w. Na pocz�tek stara�em si� da� rys og�lny po�o�enia tatarskich rodzin szlacheckich w Rzeczypospolitej."

The Tatatrs of Commonwelath known also as Lithuanian Tatars bound its fate with Poland about 600 years ago coming to Polish Lithuanian Commonwealth from Golden Horde, Khanates of Khazan, Astrakhan, Crimea, and Tatar states which were created after the break of Golden Horde. Main migration took place between end of 14th century and end of 16th century but some also came to Poland during bolshevik revolution. Since the end 18th century most of Tatars living on the territory of Commonwealth were polonised and also were taking active part in the fight for independence of Poland. Polish Tatars were called by both Poles and other Tatars and Turks "Lipki".

Khan Mehmed Gerey writes to Sigismund I King of Poland in his letter from year 1520:

"Our father lived in peace with both Polish king and Bey of Lipki (Polish Tatars). The country of Polish king and Bey of Lipki is same for us. We want from Poland and Lipki 15.000 Polish florens and the friends of Polish King and Lipki Bey will be our friends, your enemies will be our enemies".

Actually the person who was titled as Bey of Lipki wasnt any Tatar but Grand Duke of Lithuania who was also a leader of all Tatars in Lithuania.

Vitautas (pol. Witold) Grand Duke of Lithuania settled his tartars on the borders and ordered them to secure it. Tatars considered him as their Khan.

Many of the Tatars were accepted into ranks of nobles of Polish Lithuanian Commonwealth. Their rights were confirmed by king Sigismund Augustus in years 1561 and 1568, king Stephen Bathory in 1576, King Sigismundus III in 1609, king Michael Korybut Wisniowiecki in 1669 and by many bills of parliament.

Tatars in the Commonwealth were divided on 4 classes which were coming from the social divisions of Golden Horde. To become a noble in the Commonwealth a Tatar must have been considered as aristocrate in the standarts of Golden Horde. If Khan of Kazan or Crimea wittnessed that Tatar is a noble, his rights were being accepted in Poland and Lithuania and was reciving noble status in Commonwealth.Some of the Tatars had titles of "prince". In the Commonwealth the title of prince was legal only if someone was coming in the straight line from one of the ruling houses. Only Tatars that were coming from the ruling house of Golden Horde were allowed to use it. Each case was being judged individually by Polish-Lithuanian parliament and the king.

Cementary in Bochoniki, village in eastern Poland where live descendats of Tatars:

and another article i found in english:

http://www.nasza-sokolka.org/site/Tatarzy/art-72.html - http://www.nasza-sokolka.org/site/Tatarzy/art-72.html

I have found something interesting. My great grandmother's surname was Wielicki. Here is what I found. They are all Polish Nobility.

Kasprzycki's compendium lists [XII:126-7]:

WIELICKI
Arms BELINA; recorded circa 1480; from Wielgie in the district of Dobrzyn
[before 1795: w. of Inowrocl/aw].
--source: Bilin/ski.

WIELICKI nicknamed SO/JKA, the same as BABECKI and DOBROSIELSKI
Arms CHOLEWA, recorded circa 1480; from Wielgie in the district of Lipno
[before 1795: w. of Inowrocl/aw -- 1900: g. of Pl/ock], and from Dobrzyn.
--sources: Paprocki, Niesiecki, Borkowski.

WIELICKI
Arms JUNOSZA, recorded circa 1480; from Wielgie in the district of Dobrzyn,
and from Sandomierz.
--sources: Paprocki, Okolski, Nieskiecki, Borkowski, Boniecki.

WIELICI also called TYLICKI
Arms LUBICZ, recorded circa 1500; from Wielgie in the district of Dobrzyn.
--sources: Paprocki, Niesiecki, Borkowski, Krzepela.

WIELICKI
Arms SYROKOMLA variation, recorded circa 1528; from Wolhynia.
--sources: Wolhynian Metryca, Borkowski.

WIELICKI
Arms WCZELE, recorded circa 1480; from Wielgie in the district of Dobrzyn.
--source: Bilin/ski.

WIELICKI or WIELECKI, WELICKI, WELECKI princes
Arms ARMS OF RUSSIA, recorded circa 1500; from Welick in the district of
Kowel [Wolhynia].  A princely family descended from Rurik.
--sources: Lithuanian Metryca, Boniecki, Borkowski, Wolf.

WIELICKI nicknamed STERNA
Arms unknown; recorded circa 1560; from Wielhie in the district of Lipno.
--source: Bilin/ski.

WIELICKI
Arms unknown, recorded circa 1630; a christianized Tartar family, descended
from Tulu Bey.
--source: Dziadulewicz.

Note: My Great Grandparents were both Polish Catholic, and fairly dark but not fully. Dark black hair, and a light olive skin.

the name of district - Lipno - suggest that he was Tatar, Lipno sounds like name of the place where live Lipki - Polish Tatars.

If you are really descendant of those brave and valiant people you can be really proud of your genealogy

Originally posted by Scytho-Sarmatian That doesn't make much sense to me, and since you're not Mongolian I'm not overly inclined to believe you.  I think your opinion reflects some kind of mix-up or misunderstanding.  After all, how could the word "Ulan" mean "red" in Mongolian and "hero" in Tatar?  Aren't those languages closely related (or nearly identical)?  How could that difference possibly come about?   If a Mongolian member would clear this up it would be great.  If you are Mongolian and you are reading this, what do the words Ulan and Bataar mean in your language?  Thank you in advance for any replies.

well, if you are not content with my translation, then what do yous uggest Ulaan Baator means? Hero Hero? Baator is modern form of Ba'atur, title of Tem�jins father and S�be'edai, and it means hero like Turkic Tarkhan.

here's the proove that Ulaan Baator means Red Hero: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ulaan-Baatar - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ulaan-Baatar

Oglan means youth in turkish, a name given to Turkic cadettes of elite troops, usually of noble birth. like the Acemi Oglan of the Janissary corps.