Built in 1780, The Ottomans built the al-Ajyad Castle in Mecca to protect the city and its Muslim shrines from invaders. The castle was torn down by the Saudis in 2001 to make way for a trade center and hotel complex. Turkey called this a "cultural massacre."
    (SFC, 1/8/02, p.A6)

What do you think of this? What are the limits to destruction of prior work and remenants of historical eras? What are the priorities?

Well Pharoah, I think it is truely a cultural massacre. Lemme explain why:

1- A trade center is not at all needed in front of the holy mosque of Mecca

2-Hotel complex! well, these will be facing the mosque directly and probably will be new fancy hotles that charges a lot. So, they are not hotels needed for average Hajji, but for affluent rich people. And even if it was to serve and to accomodate more pilgrimage, I don't think destroying an over 220 years castle just so they can be closer to the mosque justify that. That is history. That caste is built by the Ottomans, the Arab revolution of 1916 started from  the steps of that castle too.

3- I used to set on my grandmother house steps and i can see the castle lighted in night with green light. Now it is gone and only ugly hotels will be erected there . When are we going to learn to preserve our history?

Ok, i understand that. But I did a quick search and I found that on the Saudi Embassy website on Washington DC:

The Saudi Government’s plans for the Ajyad Fort, which is not listed by UNESCO as a World Heritage site, have called for its rebuilding by experts in the same traditional way it was first built and at the same location, albeit not on Bulbul Hill. This action conforms with international conventions and agreements that allow the relocation of antiquities to other sites for the greater good.

So if they are moving it to another location for a greater good, isn't this follow the international agreements?

Also, why is the turkish government so angry? they turned Haja Sophia in Istanbul from a cathideral to a mosque! That is even worst.

I am not debating that removing Ajyad was a good decision. It is the Saudi Government decision and I am not going to defend governments' actions.

However, Im only saying that moving historical subjects for a greater good is a right that cannot be disputed. For instance, in Egypt here, we moved Abu Simbel Pharoanic temple because we needed to build the El Aly dam to control the nile river water flow and prevent seasonal flooding. Im not talking about building a metro entrance! 

Also, even if it was not the turkish government. Who gave them the right to change Haja Sophia from an orthodox cathideral to a mosque and later to a meuseum? Take a look inside, it is like a mosque with prayer mats and everything. Funny enough, Ommar the caliph in 638 AD way before the Ottoman had a better sense of protecting historical properties. He didn't destroy any churches there, and even further, he was offered to pray inside the Church of Nativity but he refused so it won't be taken as an excuse and be turned to a mosque.

So again, what is the big deal about moving a castle??

Hmm, so now Pharoah represent all the Arab world? I guess you didn't read any replies from the begining and you jumped to the end...

PLEASE stop generalization...generalization is only for lazy peoples who donnot want to think in details.

Do you have a phone book? Ok, find me Ramsis phone number to call him. Or you know, maybe I can walk in Cairo and ask permission from pharoahs. Hello!! They are gone! But for you to enter Istanbul while there are christian there and convert their biggest church in front of them to a mosque, THAT you need a permission for. Understand now? or too much kebob today?

Oh yeah! Tolerance...Let me take your church my dear christian and convert it to a Mosque and place Islamic scripts there. See, tolerance, beautiful, right? 

What do you expect from people who even deny a whole genocide!!

Ok, do you read our topic for today? yes, it is not about genocide. Maybe a different topic out there.

To bring you back to the topic, it is basically, can we destory or even move historical subjects and remenants? and if we can? what are those criterias that allows us to do so?

Moving Abu Simbel might be a necessity because of the essential need to control flooding in the Nile and store water. Now don't tell me we need the trade center and the hotel compelx really bad? Do you understand the difference now?

Much worst, if you destroy historical subjects because you don't like them. Im not sure about my government. But im sure that Taliban destroyed that ancient buddha statue because of hatred.

Finally, are you coptic christian? You can open a whole topic about Haga Shopia somewhere else. Stick with the subject here....thank you

Originally posted by çok geç Finally, are you coptic christian? You can open a whole topic about Haga Shopia somewhere else. Stick with the subject here....thank you

No, Im Muslim. Didn't I use Omar example? Let me rest my case on the following:

Turkish official underestimate differences with Saudi Arabia over Ajyad castle
Saudi Arabia-Turkey, Politics, 1/19/2002

The Turkish minister of defense Sabbah Eddine Oglo has underestimated the importance of the differences between Saudi Arabia and Turkey over Ajyad castle, recently demolished by the Saudi authorities.

Oglo said in a statement to the Saudi daily al-Watan issues on Friday that his country desires to back and develop relations with Saudi Arabia in particular and with other Arab and Islamic states which used to have a common history with Turkey.

The Turkish minister added that his country's policy is based on a main principle which is that the Ottoman heritage which used to be one day the property of Turkey is today the property of the Islamic countries and peoples whose territories own these ruins.

However, Im only saying that moving historical subjects for a greater good is a right that cannot be disputed.

Yes, I agree, but damn, building an hotel is not greater good. Their respect to history is zero.

Murtaza how can you wait respect form some envious and disrespectful bedouins?

save your generalization for other place.In fact, what you said is close to racism.

It  is goverment guilt, not people.

Now I know who fuels anti-turk feelings .  Unfortunately, it is some of the turks themselves.  I will remain objective despite the insult.

Just a correction Jagatai Khan, are bedouins nomand people travelling in desert and steppes? As far I remember, egyptions had a civilization and cities and an empire at the time where turkic tribes were travelling the steppes like "bedouins" raiding and searching for grazing steppes.

I can tell you one thing, you are not helping people for sure realizing the lose of Ajyad

If Egypt decided on day to move one pyramid, what government has the right to protest that? Yes, if England decided to move the stronehedge, who has a right to protest that?

Also, historical subjects are the property of its land. If we want to remove an Ottoman castle, they have a right to move it. It is only a castle and no significance in that castle except it is built in 1780 only.

And Im not a bedouin. I have a civilization older than you when you turks were raiding each others like animals for food and grass.

Also, historical subjects are the property of its land. If we want to remove an Ottoman castle, they have a right to move it. It is only a castle and no significance in that castle except it is built in 1780 only.

Sure noone having any saying, but this also means you dont respect history. Hotels are not vital things, or are they?

Well acording to this logic, We have a civilization as older as yours.Hitits.

God protect Hotels! They are realy important things.

Ok Pharoah, you keep missing the point. First of all, destroying any historical subject and remenant is WRONG. Second, if you want to move them, you should have a reasonable priority to do so. If Egyption government decided to move one Pyramid to build new houses for expanding cairo, That is wrong. History need to be respected. But if they want to move that pyramid to protect it from underground water waste from nearby Geza suburbs which hurt the foundation of the pyramid. I guess yes then. 

What do you mean by just a 220 year old casstle? In the United States, they protect houses that are only 100 years old. What about a casstle of an Empire? Also, did you read the original posting? This castle was to protect people of Mecca. It has a significance spiritually and physically too as the witness of the Ottoman Empire presence protecting the holy land -of course earlier good Ottoman time- and it was a witness of the Arab revolution of the Sherief. So MUCH history. Finally, I miss the view . Can we add this reason? lol

Originally posted by Mortaza God protect Hotels! They are realy important things.

Please guys, beware of generalizations and flamewars. This topic was created with logical sense and constructive purpose.

That destruction of the Ottoman castle in Saudi Arabia was a disrespectful action to historical values. I am happy to agree on this sense with an Arab forumer here.

1. You are totally provoked. Calm down and make sense ( to paraoah)

2. Turks were raiding for land and rule, not for grass.

3. Since we are Anatolians: Hitite civilization was as old as Egypt. And Muwatalli defeated Egyptians at Battle of Kadesh, so we are better than you (a chauvanist point of view for sure)...

Ok, make up your mind. Are you a turk invading from central asia, or a Hitite? You cannot be both. As far as I remember, there is a country named Turkemnistan, any relationship? Yes, close to your original place of empty lands of grass and hills. I don't remember Hitite moved through central asia with your barbaric tribes.

So, are you an Arab or a Pharoahnic Egyption? can you be both this time?

Well, that I don't know of. Maybe the original population was turkcized. But anyhow, please use more respectufl descriptions next time and stick to the topic again.

Are you a turk invading from central asia, or a Hitite? You cannot be both.

Well If someone has a Turkish father and hitit mother, what is he?

Only A turk? Crap.

As far as I remember, there is a country named Turkemnistan, any relationship?

Another Turkic country so what? Dont you have much arabic country?

I don't remember Hitite moved through central asia with your barbaric tribes.

No our barbaric tribes came from middle asia, by they way, they ruled you too. Not just ottomans. 

Yeah Crap, so why do you call yourself a Turk and not a Hitit?

Anyhow, Im sticking with topic too. I think historical importance is relevant to each country and depends on their perceptions. For instance, that 100 old house will be of less importance to Egyption than American because we have a history of 5000 years.

Again, i see those historical remenants part of the place they are built on and not who built them. Turkish government should not protest Ajyad distruction and Buddhist in Thailand should not ask for their government intervention for the Buddha statue demolition. That is my view.

Cok Gec, are you an Arab or Turk? you sound like a turk?

Anyhow, Im sticking with topic too. I think historical importance is relevant to each country and depends on their perceptions. For instance, that 100 old house will be of less importance to Egyption than American because we have a history of 5000 years.

Yes yes, You dont understand maybe, Noone  said This castle is most important thing, but Isnt It a little more important than Hotels.

And you are  right historical importance is relevant to each country, and They give nothing any historical importance.

Again, i see those historical remenants part of the place they are built on and not who built them. Turkish government should not protest Ajyad distruction and Buddhist in Thailand should not ask for their government intervention for the Buddha statue demolition. That is my view.

Agree, Instead of protesting, They should  banned to go Mecca and Medine, than Soudis would think better,what is important, to have tourist or to have hotels.

about the Ajyad Castle destruction, i think the saudi Government made a mistake by destroying this castle, but then they destroyed many things which are way older than this castle add to that they are not in the business of making such castles as Tourest attractions.

Mortaza got mad . As Azimuth said, my government is not very interested in the income of pilgrimage. I think they did it fast because they knew locals will oppose it. Anyhow, I hope in the future, a group watch can be formed to protect the remining historical subjects.

And why is that? because we don't agree? Just to answer your question, No. I have a saudi flag posted here as you see and Im Saudi as far as i remember Hijaz becoming part of the kingdom, and Im not a turk or from any turkic country. I even think my father side is Yemeni even, so not even close. Maybe you are talking about the Çok Geç title, that is from a song actually. It means "too late" as I will be always late to follow topics here

Irrelevant discussion. Yes, I can be both. Are you an Arab or an Egyptian? Make up your mind.

It doesnt interest you. We are the inheritors of both, as the Turks of Anatolia.

Lets say we have an Egyptian pyramid, Keops in Anatolia, and my company decides to smash it to build a shiny gasino there. Wouldnt you oppose it?

He doesnt have to be a Turk to be objective and make sense. You insult yourself with this sentence.

Ah,I am late.

For my post,I should say that you must take care on the word "some" on it.Of course I thought not to generalise all Arabs because of a shame of their government.

When i first saw the news on the second page of the newspaper, I totally shocked. I felt very sad and also angry. I had hope that saudi goverment would change their decision until they started to destraction. I even had hope that they would stop it, on the other hand they did not.

Ajyad castle destruction is totally wrong act. It is not only an Ottoman monument but also islamic monument. It was built to protect Mecca.

I think it could be found another place to build a 5 star hotel, however Ajyad castle would be never seen again...

Maybe it was torned down to prevent the "mushrekin" from worshipping it? 

wth you speaking with? I prefer to be in a civilized union then be a lid from an union who's uncivilzed (but not them all) thinkin, acting not 500, not 1000 but 1500 years back!!--> worser then before the Islam came... 

Just update youre vahabbi rejim and youre empty head 

pls come back again!

Well If we both beg, I dont see any difference

For EU, yes you are right, but Infact we dont beg much, we force it with our way and Of course It will fail. Lets hope, It fail quick.(not more quick than two year)

And No Turk want to be called as german, There are Turks at germany, and They are I think, more nationalist than us.

And you are right, our situation is not much better than arabs.

You think the destruction of an Ottoman castle is bad? What do you think about the 1970s destruction of Armenian churches and other buildings of ''Eastern Anatolia''? What about the denial of the Armenian origins of those churches, even though Armenian carvings survive (despite Turks trying to whitewash them), and the obviously Armenian style?

Does a castle - which is a purely military building - really have cultural value for Turks? Is this Turkish culture? I don't think a castle is important to Turks as much as Hagia Sophia is to Greeks, or Akhtamar is to Armenians.

wanna talk of destructions! talk  about what ur Orthodox did to Mosques in the Balkan , while the Bosnijaks didn't destroy a church...

plus, since almost all the poeple back then became muslims, why not to change their* church to a mosque.

Furthermore, since it is historical thing, it isn't about arabs ot turks...

we say in Arabic:

With the lack of horses, we saddle the dogs!

"There's nothing suitable, so they come with a useless alternative"

heaps of places to build whatever they want, why there...

Originally posted by erci That castle was built to protect people so it has a sentimental value, not only us but all muslims.Who are you to judge Turkish culture on this matter?It is not culture it's respect. who denied those things you mentioned? if they are Armenian style so they are! Even if we denied the origins of the buildings, do you think anybody would believe us? who are we kidding? If we did destroy Churches why didn't we destroy them all?  but yeah since you're here to provoke go ahead, think small as usual

agreed!

I'd like to add.. since is an Islamic state and that is an islamic architecture, they should take care of it, rather than destroying it in order to add some westernised stuff....

Whatever. I'm not here to defend those Balkan Christians who committed genocide. I suppose you also expect me to defend the Nazis, just because I'm Christian.

Armenians preserve Turkic/Persian mosques in Armenia. Iran - which is an Islamic republic - does a good job preserving its' own Armenian historical buildings. Turkey an Azerbaijan - both of which are ''secular'' republics - have destroyed churches and traces of Armenian life in historical Armenia.

I understand. However, Turkey, TRNC, and their Azeri sisters have a certain attitude on  Armenian (and Greek) heritage... Now, Turks are crying that the castle has been converted to a hotel?

I know... It really sounds absurd, but it's unfortunately true.  

If Turkey didn't destroy all the churches (it left them there to rot), Azerbaijan did. On the other hand, the Armenians of Nagorno-Karabagh have preserved the mosque of Shushi, and the Republic of Armenia itself has preserved the mosque in Yerevan.

well, I don't get it.I've never seen or heard of anybody in Turkey claiming Armenian churches actually are not Armenian in origin or Greek.Even if government tried to hide the facts from people or world (which did not)do you think it worked on me or anybody?I like that church you mention in East of Turkey.it has a nice structure and seems really nice along with the lake and I know it's Armenian.It's stupid not to know

Amazing how much of hatred for Ataturk there is amongst Arabs. Maybe because Ataturk tried to take out the Arab nationalism that is concealed under the cover of Islam and religion.

As for the Castle it was probably destroied out of hatred and sense of nationalism but what some Arabs don't understand is that having Turks as hard core Muslims is the best thing that could happen for Arab nationalism and they don't want to make Turks unhappy by destroy the likes of the castle. Turks only ruled on the surface even today they still talk to their god in Arabic and kiss the ground in the direct of Arab feet, now how was the real ruler

Please stick with the topic Miller. We corrected Badawi and Jagati, we don't need a third person to start a deviate from the original topic.

Now, I believe if the Armenian churches were left to decay and fell apart with no maintanance is very debateble. This due to the fact, that anything that is left with no maintanance because of being abondened or its use ceased to exist, will eventually fell down with time withir it is a church or a mosque or a castle. If some old mosques are falling in Turkey due to lack of maintanance, then it is an indicator that the government does not have the enough resources to save everything including the Armenian churches.

However, going to destroy it is a clear aggression on history and rights. Destroying or "moving" Ajyad Castle to build a hotel was unnecessary at all regardless if it's a Turkish castle or not. Preventing needed maintanance is also an aggression to history where some governments will intervene blocking maintance to let the subject fall down naturally.

I am talking about the using church not damaged churches. You can even find some damaged and not using mosques in Anatolia. Especially some great and unique Seljuk mosques. They are really old. The main situatoin is this. Same situation can be said for some armenian churches.

On the other hand, some very old  armenian churches are being restored by Turkish goverment like at lake van.

There are 30 active armenian churches only in Istanbul while whole france only have 23 and Whole Russia have 9...

Adress of active armenian churches in istanbul can be found from following webside...

http://www.mymerhaba.com/en/main/content.asp_Q_id_E_126 - http://www.mymerhaba.com/en/main/content.asp_Q_id_E_126

They're also wrong. Sorry for them.

Yes, they preserve Persian mosques, but I cant agree about Turkish ones.

We didnt destroy churches, but we left them to wreck. It was a bad choice for sure, but when there arent many Armenians around to use them and when our people even dont have enough income even to feed themselves in the east, you cant expect them to rebuild or restorate all Armenian churches. And still we have lots of Armenian churches in the east.

That's brainwashed and racist. Learn to respect others values and keep your insults to yourself.

lol Turkey is full of remaining Rum and Armenian churches, what are you talking about? Of course some were left t wreck, some were ruined, and I dont deny some in Istanbul were attacked after some provocations. But still, it cant be defined as a certain attitude. even Hagia Sophia is a museum today. Since I am an Alevi, I dont visit mosques oftenly, but I am against Hagia Sophia being a museum. Over tolerance causes indulgement, we have witnessed its consequences a couple of times in history.

What did you expect from Azeris to do? Azerbaijan didnt destroy all Armenian churches, it is a lie. On the other hand, I dont think there are lots of mosques left in Karabagh after the massacres.

BTW, your profession of the ability of changing every discussion into a "poor Armenians" one is absolutely worth to respect. Congratulations...

Well Two mistake dont make right(Turkish mistake, by the way turkish respect to history is not too much than Arabs, we dont destroy them, but we dont maintain them good.) and absolutely three (orthodox one) mistake dont make right too.

As for the Castle it was probably destroied out of hatred and sense of nationalism but what some Arabs don't understand is that having Turks as hard core Muslims is the best thing that could happen for Arab nationalism and they don't want to make Turks unhappy by destroy the likes of the castle. Turks only ruled on the surface even today they still talk to their god in Arabic and kiss the ground in the direct of Arab feet, now how was the real ruler

why dont you just do your own job, I dont like their hate to Ataturk, but that does not mean, we will support your enemity to arabs. And we dont ground in the direct of arab feet, but Kabe, and I dont think we should change your religion because of your happyness.

I'm not talking about what individual Turks know about those churches. I'm talking about the government's stance.

I hope you know the difference.

Not anymore.

They were originally Persian mosques, used by the Turkic community.

Maybe Turkey didn't have enough money for these things (A 10th century church? Let's leave it there to rot! Our tummies are more important.), but their origin is denied.

If this is ''full'' to you, imagine how it was a few decades ago.

For those of you who disliked my comments here... I didn't want to talk about ''poor Armenians''. I just wanted to say that Turkey's record on preserving cultural monuments is far from perfect (the Armenian buildings happened to be good examples), so Turks cannot give certain advices on the preservation of Ottoman buildings in Saudi Arabia.

"I just wanted to say that Turkey's record on preserving cultural monuments is far from perfect (the Armenian buildings happened to be good examples), so Turks cannot give certain advices on the preservation of Ottoman buildings in Saudi Arabia."

This is not only for armenian works also for ottoman and seljuk period monuments. Some of the great and unique seljuk mosques sadly in danger. And even some unique ottoman works would be dissappear if our goverment does not take care of them(Sadly tens maybe hundreds of them have already dissappear).

"I didn't want to talk about ''poor Armenians''. I just wanted to say that Turkey's record on preserving cultural monuments is far from perfect (the Armenian buildings happened to be good examples), so Turks cannot give certain advices on the preservation of Ottoman buildings in Saudi Arabia."

Nobody is saying poor armenians or something like that. There are not a delebirate act against armenian or greek monuments. Same things is happen to ottoman and seljuk monuments and even worse. The diffirence is that we didn't expect any special affords for ajyad castle. It could exist without any support. However suadi goverment destroyed it. 

 I also want to say for many arabs living in Mecca it is much hard thing for them.

For again armenian churches in Turkey, yes there are more Armenian churches than armenia. Even in istanbul there are 30 ACTIVE-OPEN armenian churches. On the other hand, In whole france there are only 23, in whole russia there are 9. I gave a link, if you don't believe, you can easily control... 

That is the topic. How arabs feel toward turks is not irrelevant to why a historical turkish castle was destroyed in arabia.

Also, you keep acting like the mediator of this forum do you want to be one? just ask for it I believe they are looking for more people

The Seljuk mosques are Turkish, so Turks can treat them the way it suits them. They would just be destroying their own buildings.

Here's an example of how Turkey denies the origin of a deserted Medieval Armenian city called Ani. You could see the name of Armenian kings (Bagrat, etc.) but it doesn't say anything about Armenians.

http://www.virtualani.freeserve.co.uk/history/historysigns.jpg - http://www.virtualani.freeserve.co.uk/history/historysigns.j pg

Here's a recent article that extensively talks about Ani, but it doesn't say anything about Armenians.

http://www.zaman.com/?bl=national&alt=&hn=23188 - http://www.zaman.com/?bl=national&alt=&hn=23188

Pay attention to the picture, and how badly it was ''renovated'' You can hardly find any original stonework in some of the walls.

http://www.virtualani.freeserve.co.uk/ - http://www.virtualani.freeserve.co.uk/

Well just in case you failed to see or maybe being lazy to go to the original posts, I created this thread. And it was for a purpose in which I desired to learn more about it, so it is natural for me to step sometimes to correct the flow of talk in order to maximize the concentration on the subject and thus, me benifiting.

Now, up to this point, I don't think you have inputted anything to the subject unfortunately. Not a single piece of information at all. Maybe I can summerize it as "and it is bla bla, bla bla bla".  Funny enough, your theory was rejected by both, Arab in this forum and Turks. I call it cheap talk.

No, I don't want to be a moderator because im still new to the forum. But I hope you won't be one cuz you cannot follow even one subject

Just because you started the question that does not mean you can direct the answers when you don't like the answer. The answer to your question is in al badawi's post and I am just pointing that out. His feelings is shared by many Arabs. You know that. What point are you really trying to make?

And what exactly is my theory that was rejected? That there is resentment amongst Arabs toward turks and that is why arab tried to erase the castle and anything else turkic from their life? And Arabs never took side with British against the turks? And Arabs never tried to erase turkic words from their language? And ...

ok Miller

Arabs dont have that much hate toward turks as much as the Turks has toward arabs, as i mentioned earlier Arabs specially the modern Arabs dont know much about The Turkish ruling period that the education most of Arab countries has doesn't generate any hatrad feeling toward Turks, its mainly about their advantages and at their early days nothing about Turkish rule at its end and nothing about Ataturk.

while Turkish education system which is not only school its media culture and schools is full of hate against Arabs and that to support Turkish aim to be western somehow.

and about Arabs trying to erase Turkish from their life  well there were no turkish system in Arabs life, they ruled us and they got effected by us.

and about the language note this Turkish words were used in egyptian accent and not officially. only the titles Bey Pasha were taken since Egypt was ruled by Turkish governers till the 1950s.

while the Turkish were ruled by Turkish and the language erasing was done by them more than 20 years before egyptians took out some turkish titles. and they took more than 10000 Arabic words, how many Turkish words were taken from the Egyptian language?!!

there are no comparison between the two and the hatrad the turkish Kemalists has is way too much against Arabs that they tried to make their own version of Islam that is by making the prayers in Turkish and the Quran in Turkish all that to get away from the arabic language and the religion came from Arabia

so far Ataturk Failed big time to do his goals and his worshippers Failed to do so too.

ARABIC is the Language of Prayer in Turkey and the Majority of Turkish who pray pray in Arabic Still.

yea and about Arabs aliying with the British against Turkey ! whats so suprising about that they revolted against the rulers which is so democratic and the british helped ( note that the british had different plans and for the british good they helped the arabs who didnt even know what is a gun in the period.

and something very important that the British Helped and were allies of the Ottomans long time before the british allied with the Arabs.

who saved the Ottomans from their own governor of egypt? the one who not only got independent from the Ottomans  BUT wanted also to invade them !! talk about backsabing and betryal

Duh! If I didn't bring the Ajyad story to this forum, what other examples you have of erasing turkish of our life?

And don't say we when you speak about Arabs, your name is Miller and god knows your agendas. Still though, your theory that Ajyad castle was erased because it is turkish is just plain stupid. If that is true, why they didn't erase the caste of Madina too? you can go the Holy Mosque in Mecca and see a whole section built during the Ottoman. they could have destroyed it and said we needed to renew the mosque and expand it with the new expansion.  They destroyed Ajyad because of their lack of respect to the history...Big difference hatred fueler

Please Please Please, say anything useful I can learn from. Anything other than "fillers". 

Maybe Arabs from Saudi Arabia don't ''hate'' Turks, but I'm sure that the Syrians have different feelings. Don't they want Antioch and Iskenderun back?

http://weekly.ahram.org.eg/2005/751/chrncls.htm - http://weekly.ahram.org.eg/2005/751/chrncls.htm

Yup, that is called politics confrontation. It is like Argentine hate to English for the Folkland island (is that spelling right)? Also Syrians run in confrontation with Turkey over the Euphrate river water and their host to the Kurdistan Democratic Party. Syrians also known for being a hardcore Arab nationalist. So, them bordering another hard core pan-Turk state like Turkey is easy to invite confrontation. Last, Syrians had suffered from Jamal Pasha policies during a time of smashing Arab nationalist in Syria and Lebanon, that adds a depth to their feeling too.

But to advocate that Arab in general hate Turks just for historical reasons is totally misleading.  Im from the city that had witnessed the begining of the Arab revolution against the Turks and I don't hate them in general. Same thing is to Lebanese, Iraqis, Egyptions, and Algerians...etc

Now, im not sure about Turks feeling toward Arabs, is it hatred to Syrian Arabs, to Northern Arab, to Arab of the 1916 revolution, to all Arab? Maybe someone can inform us about that. I just heard lately that street dogs in Turkey are called Arabs, I will check that in my next visit to turkey, but anyone can elaborate on this before that time?

Going back to the subject, definitely Ajyad was removed due to the government vision of historical value worthiness, won't matter if it is an Ottoman castle or a Hindi one.

even the Syrians who suffered the most from the Ottoman treatments dont hate Turks that much, i have some syrian friends who told me that Turks of Turkey always look down at them.

as i said the only explaination to this is that the Kamalist government of Turkey is using  Arab-Turkish conflicts through history to get the Turks hate Arabs and the Religion came from Arabia and everything related to Arabs and seek European identity.

plus that its obviouse that the new turkey is against many Ottoman principles and consider these principles as ignorant and backward. while till now Turkey with its new reforms didnt achieve much. which shows that these reforms were a failure more than a success. anyway i personally like Turkish old traditions and Culture and will (inshalla) visit Turkey and will be looking forward to see the countryside life and the museums more than the cities and the buildings.

Azimuth, you really tire me, repeating the same nonsense again and again, like a parrot. Do I have to try convince you that noone hates you again? That's paranoid, I dont know if they teach ataturk was a "blonde vampire" and Turks are "kafer"s in your schools as al beduin said, but I wont get into that discussion again.

Of course. We hate Arabs. Our only purpose as a kafer republic is to hate the holy jihad and hate Muslim Arabs. We are the deccal. Get a life. If we want to be western, we'll, and it is none of your business.

Egyptians took many words out of their langage, maybe not as much as we did, but near. And it is none of our business just like our language revolution isnt yours.

What? anatolian Turks were always praying in Turkish until Ottoman Empire's cultural missions over anatolia to form a Sunnite society. The majority of the Muslim anatolian population was Alevis or belonging to Turkmen sects before the massive Ottoman conversions. We still have a %20 population of Alevi-Bektashis, and they pray in Turkish, as they always did.

What is your problem with us praying in Turkish? Doesnt Allah know Turkish? Do they teach you Allah is an Arab? Get rid of those prejudgements and racism, as I said before, dont try to become an Ummayad, but an Abbasid. This kind of nationalism brings you nowhere.

He didnt fail. You can see it everywhere in the streets, on the TV, an the atlas that he didnt fail. And we dont worship him. But I see you, individually worship Wahhab. Wahhab-u akbar right?

British werent allies of us. They were on the opposite side in WWI. And they never were our allies. They just tried to keep the sick man alive, so then they could get more pieces of will from the russians when the man dies. And they killed the man with a stab. From the back. It was his own "hançer".

[QUOTE] so sad, so true..[/QUOTE]

Please dont. Dont confirm things that you have no idea about. I've seen your sensible posts many times before, and I dont want you to be blinded by nationalism again. Wake up.

My greatpa died for nonsense in Yemen when trying to protect his Muslim brothers in Yemen, but I dont hate arabs in general too. Generalizating and ethnic hatred are idiotic purposes.

Oguzoglu, no need to get mad. I was just asking. You are such a funny sarcastic guy. Who is the Daccal now? You?

Just a correction: Classical Arabic spoken by all Arab countries does not have Turkish words. Only street dialects. Thus, when many educated people rose up and TV programming such as News..etc was in Classical Arabic, people started using the classical terms to look educated which are again purely Arabic.

You still hear words like Odah (Oda in Turkish)=room, Kushuk (TR=köþk)=a selling koisk, Dosh (TK=Duþ)= Shower Bath,Hanim (TK=Haným), Bey, Afendem...etc.  These are used in street, but when you want to speak in academic sense, TV interview, in a discussion, you want to look educated and so you will use Fus-ha, which is the Arabic Classical Language.

no you dont have to convice me or anything and you didnt convince me before to convince me again!  remember the last time we were talking about this? you didn't replay to my last post.

anyway its clear that you dont have much to say since most of your replays are " you dont teach me about islam, its non of your buisness" and the rest of the nonesense replays which are'nt even correct since i never tried to teach you about anything and didnt say that anything in Turky is my business !! i didnt and i wont iam just stating my opinion about the reforms that you think are perfect. i can state my opinions cant i?

you are the paranoid one here not me, plus if you are bothered that much then you just ignore my posts, you know you DON'T have to replay when you have nothing to say.

i didnt say you cant be westerner and if that good or bad to you, i just said that is how your government is making you like the west.

and as i mentioned i didn't say that it was my business and i always say i think that everybody is free to do what they want with their language or culture or whatever. iam just saying that what you did didnt make you better than before. and these reforms weren't perfect. and thats my opinion and again you dont have to agree with what i say.

not even close of being called near

i would say from each 100 Arabic word turks deleted, 1 turkish word egyptians deleted.

and they werent much Turkish in egyptians official language either. and as i said egyptians were ruled by turkish speaking kings who spoke a broken arabic slang while Turkey was ruled by Turks. which makes egyptians correcting their language is more sense making after kicking those non-Arabs from the rule.

wow wow, thats need a whole new thread, as i remember i already had this talk with Alparsalan something like 5 months ago. go read it it has most of what i had to say about this matter. and it has nothing to do with racism too

well having his status and pictures everywhere proves that he is worshipped somehow and your education making him like a prophet who is far from making any mistakes and all what he did was PERFECT

and there are no comparisions between Ataturk and ibn abd alwahab, Abd alwahab is not known to 90% of Arabs if you dont know and he is not considered a perfect man or anything he is simply a man who brought back the Hanbali sector of Sunni Islam to control. and Hanbali is not a different teaching or anything its like the other 3 with slight difference in non-major religion principles on islam.

pluse many sunnies dont even care what sector they follow because these four sectors are the same and the difference is minor and people dont even notic these stuff.

 OMG

never expected such justification!! so still Mehmet Ali wasn't a backstabber and didn't betray his masters and the British didnt save the Ottomans? !!!

and they killed (the ottomans) via Arabs!! , you just said that they (the british) kept the sick man alive which means that they could've killed that sick man anytime they wanted with mehmet ali or without him , with arabs or without them.

see how you are making it all the balme on arabs and not seeing your own governors actions against you. and Ottomans never trusted Arabs they always put a Turk as a governor and looked down at Arabs and the Arabs of palistine, jorden, iraq, syria and western arabia had to revolt  and that is SO DEMOCRATIC to revolt against an unjust government.

by the way the British didnt kill the sick man, Attaturk did.

how did you asume that he has no idea about these stuff? !

.

well i guess many Arabs lost their greatpas under Ottomans sowrds and guns too. so both had victims.

lol i thought that golden coins thing was a yemini thing not syrian !! or it was allover Arabia !

-------------

see how you are making it all the balme on arabs and not seeing your own governors actions against you. and Ottomans never trusted Arabs they always put a Turk as a governor and looked down at Arabs and the Arabs of palistine, jorden, iraq, syria and western arabia had to revolt  and that is SO DEMOCRATIC to revolt against an unjust government

wasnt sherif arab? If  I am not wrong  he was ruler of Mecca Medine?

For Ottomans(Not young Turks), they didnt care If someone was Turk or not. Most of the ruler of ottomans(grandvezirs) were albanian.

I think arabs had not much effect at ottomans, because they were to much away from power center.(Istanbul)

well as i mentioned before most Arabs dont even know much about turks and they think of turks as brothers and dont even know anything about ataturk or who is he or what he did, and also nothing about the last period of the Ottomans rule,

our education is almost free from any disadvantages, specially the early history part.

not iam not saying that is the correct thing to teach and not saying it is wrong, iam just stating fact from my own experience.

what i know about modern turkish of turkey is from here and from other places, and i noticed that village people are more into keeping their culture than the city people who many of them think of the villagers as backward and ignorant.

Because I didnt CARE.

You said dont call yourself Muslims before. And I say, it is none of your business.

I cant ignore the posts fullfilling other people's mind with Arabic jihad propoganda. I am not the ignorant one here.

DON'T have to replay when you have nothing to say.

Of course. When I will have nohing to say (when you wont claim nationalistic propoganda again), I wont have to reply. You know, I am rally tired, I have better things to do with my life than trying to give teraphy to paranoid mentalities.

And I said they were perfect. And I replied my answers again and again. So no need to argue on the same topic more and more.

Whic non-arabs did the Egyptians kicked from the rule? I know that Egyptians havent won any single battle against Anatolians since the Battle of Kadesh (and anatolian won that one too)...

British are smart, dont belitte their purposes. They didnt care about poor sick man's future or poor arabs trying to become independent. They cared about taking the biggest piece from the Ottoman cake. And they wouldnt leave the piece of bosphorus and Middle East to an insane pasha for sure.

But they prefered to use the arabs to backstab that sick man, that was the most suitable and benefical way.

I dont blame arabs. History does. But sure, no ethnic generalizations.

There was no term called "Turk" except "Etrak-i bi-idrak" in Ottoman dictionary. Ottomans became Sunnites just to succeed in jihad and uniting all Muslims. Ottoman empire was much more tolerant and benefical to arabs than to Turks of Anatolia. If you have nothing to say, you just dont have to say anything...

But I wish the Ottoman habit was that way, looking down on other ethnicities and not trusting them. Sometimes, overtrust and overtolerance creates overindulged generations and backstabbing actions. PS history writes it, I didnt.

I dont know how it is related with our topic. Take out the idea of freedom fighting Arabs against oppressive Ottoman kafers. FACE IT PLEASE. An Arab shik wasnt a model Middle Eastern version of Ernesto Che Guevara or a Palestinian kid attacking an american tank, he was just a man hungry for more British coins and idolizing Lawrance-u Akbar.

Roses are red, violets are blue. You dont have an idea about who he was, do you?

It isnt a matter of guessing. It is a matter of experience. And Azimuth, I dont know who decided to make you a mod to the Islamic forum, but believe me, you are because you are an Arab, not because of your "wise" knowledge of history.

I thought we talked about not simplifying things tooo much. Com'on Oguzoglu, from where this story of searching stomach for British coins came from?

If we have our grandathers fighting for this, how comes no mentioning of that in their stories? I don't think they were naiive to that extend. Sorry.

 Erci,

At least thank you for providing the whole article. It shows the oppositions to such decisions even inside government agencies. I cannot imagine what will happen if you just stated the fact? Tons of silly generalizing comments will drown us here!

Now, as I earlier mentioned, it does not matter if it is Ottoman or Ummayed or whatever, they really need that swimming pool . Didn't they erase the Prophet's house in Mecca too which is maintained over one thousand and 400 years?

But they prefered to use the arabs to backstab that sick man, that was the most suitable and benefical way.

This is becoming boring, why dont you change your "backstabing" word with rebellion? If we call all rebellions as backstab, sorry but Alevis backstabed Ottomans more and more than arabs.(And most probably harmed ottomans more. So should we hate Alevis too? (They allied enemy of Ottomans to, Safavids) Bektasis(Yeniceris sect) rebelled, and main reason of failing of ottomans, should we hate bektasis also, should we say bektasis backstabed us?(They did this only for gold, not for another reason) So use another word instead of backstabing. Realy becoming boring.

Dont forget Tatars  who betrayed Turks at viena 2 war, because of them Ottomans loosed viena war, should we accuse them for backstabing too?

What happened is what happened, no need to continue it.

I mean second siege, first siege had not main siege weapons, so It have no chance to take vienna.

Aim of Suleyman was to fight with Empire army, but German empire didnt do it with wisdomly.

Even Kanuni tried to prove him, with calling him, If you dont fight as a man, wear skirt as a woman.

At second siege, At main war, Tatars only watched, when ottomans were losing war, than they retreated.

well i decided to take sometime off the net just to finish my assignments but really couldn't resist not replaying to this

and its clearer now that you really dont have much to say, so just for fun i'll point out some of the errors in your post to prove that you dont have much to say about my posts here in this thread and most of what you wrote are false accusations and  irrelevant to what i wrote.

iam not that sensitive about if you cared or not cared to replay to my posts, the reasons i wrote "you didn't replay to may last post" was to prove your false claim that you convinced me before and asking if you need to convince me again!

so i just pointed out that you didnt convince me before and you didnt even replay to my post.

i dont really care if you replaied or not its your decision and you are a free man.

and here is your post

Azimuth, you really tire me, repeating the same nonsense again and again, like a parrot. Do I have to try convince you that noone hates you again? That's paranoid, I dont know if they teach ataturk was a "blonde vampire" and Turks are "kafer"s in your schools as al beduin said, but I wont get into that discussion again..

 and this is my replay which you just picked one sentence from

no you dont have to convice me or anything and you didnt convince me before to convince me again!  remember the last time we were talking about this? you didn't replay to my last post.

hope that was clear, if not then ask someone else to clear it up.

hmmmm no i dont think so,  i didnt mention "dont call yourself a muslim "here

you said its non of your business two times in your last post and to those i replied.

so here are they:

my post as you quoted it was

while Turkish education system which is not only school its media culture and schools is full of hate against Arabs and that to support Turkish aim to be western somehow.

as you can see there is nothing there about "dont call yourself a muslim"

and your paranoid replay was

Of course. We hate Arabs. Our only purpose as a kafer republic is to hate the holy jihad and hate Muslim Arabs. We are the deccal. Get a life. If we want to be western, we'll, and it is none of your business...

and i replied to that :

i didnt say you cant be westerner and if that good or bad to you, i just said that is how your government is making you like the west.

and as i mentioned i didn't say that it was my business and i always say i think that everybody is free to do what they want with their language or culture or whatever. iam just saying that what you did didnt make you better than before. and these reforms weren't perfect. and thats my opinion and again you dont have to agree with what i say.

and the secound time  was to my post which is this one

while the Turkish were ruled by Turkish and the language erasing was done by them more than 20 years before egyptians took out some turkish titles. and they took more than 10000 Arabic words, how many Turkish words were taken from the Egyptian language?!!

as you can see there i didnt say if it was my buisness or dont call yourself a muslim

and your replay to that was

Egyptians took many words out of their langage, maybe not as much as we did, but near. And it is none of our business just like our language revolution isnt yours...

so from the above it is very clear that i didnt say " dont call yourself a muslim"

and you accused me of getting in your business while i didnt.

note that i did mentione something about dont call your self a muslim but not in this thread and your replay was dont teach me about islam and i replied to that and you didnt replay back because as you explaied here you didnt CARE

  you just mentioned that you Didn't care about replying to my post in other thread.

and that post was very similar to this ! anyway its your thing not mine.

so where did i try to Fullfill other people's mind with Arabic jihad propaganda? and when did i talk about Jihad in this thread?

are you sure you are replying to my posts or someothe posts?

just show me where did i do that?

Originally posted by Oguzoglu DON'T have to replay when you have nothing to say. Of course. When I will have nohing to say (when you wont claim nationalistic propoganda again), I wont have to reply. You know, I am rally tired, I have better things to do with my life than trying to give teraphy to paranoid mentalities.

again where did i calim nationalistic propaganda?

you are really tired because you invent stuff by yourself , i didnt claim any nationalisic propaganda.

so far you are caliming stuff not me

well this sentence was from this post of mine:

and as i mentioned i didn't say that it was my business and i always say i think that everybody is free to do what they want with their language or culture or whatever. iam just saying that what you did didnt make you better than before. and these reforms weren't perfect. and thats my opinion and again you dont have to agree with what i say.

as you can see from that i mentioned this about reforms just as an explaination to you that i didnt get into your business.

so iam not arguing you about their perfection and that sentence was to show you that i didnt say that it was my business and i was just stating my own opinions.

you should know this, until the 1950s non-arabs were ruling egypt and the egyptians kicked them out.

and where did i mention Anatolians?? man you are confused. or just dont read all the post

anyway i meationed that quote here:

and as i said egyptians were ruled by turkish speaking kings who spoke a broken arabic slang while Turkey was ruled by Turks. which makes egyptians correcting their language is more sense making after kicking those non-Arabs from the rule.

so as you can see , i was talking about turkish words deleting by egyptians and how that was more sense-making than the Turkish deleting arabic words.

still not relevant to what i wrote.

Mehmet Ali Betryed the Ottomans or not when he got independent?

Mehmet Ali didnt Backstab the Ottomans when he went to conqure Istanbul?

look at your own Pashas and your own fellow turkish brothers before accusing Arabs of backstabing you and betrying you.

all what Arabs did is to get independent and they revolted against their rulers as many nations did when their rulers weren't good to them.

so Mehmet Ali's invation wasn't backstabbing? and i think Mehmet Ai taking over Istanbul was the most suitable and quickest way to kill the Ottomans.

see how you it is in your mind that Arabs were the main resons for the Ottomans end!! while the Ottomans started declining just after the death of Sulyman alqanuni.

go check your sources in the decline of the Ottomans and see how big was the Arabic revolting in that.

 yea your History.

dont forget that History is set of facts happened in the past. which also include Turkish killing their own brother Turkish for the rules. and also the history includes Timur your fellow Turkish brother conquering the Ottomans and killing the Sultan and also include the Memluks who were mostly Turkish rulers being conquered and killed by their blood brother the Ottomans.

that is History too. but i can see its clear that you like to remember something and forget the rest. as i said that is how your government and education is doing to support you developing western mentality and looking forward to be like them.

note iam not saying that is bad or good. didnt give my opinion in them, iam just saying that is how you support your population to be in the EU.

i dont see how the Ottomans benefited Arabs !! as far as i know Arabs became the most backward and ignorant people on earth when they were under the Ottomans rule. you call that benefit?

it is very related to the topic since you call that democratic revolt as a backsabbing. and it had nothing to do with Kafer or muslims it had to do with the rule was Bad and people weren't happy so they revolted. as simple as that.

and about the British coin and lawrance  : as i metioned before Lawrance is not known and people dont even care about him and nobody idolized him !! i see Turks thinking about him more than Arabs. and about the coins  so all this was for the british coins inside Turkish soldiers stomach? i must admitt if that revolt was for these coins then those arabs were so ignorant and stupid. still i would blam who ruled them for 100s of years that made them that ignorant

with or without him Arabs would've revolted against the ruling system, it wasn't good for them.

and i dont know if you know what Akbar means or not since you used it with abd alwahab and now using it with lawrance ! or you are just angry and has not much to add and want to provoke me? just to let you i dont get and never got upset or angry from forums 

Good for me.

Originally posted by Oguzoglu by the way the British didnt kill the sick man, Attaturk did. Roses are red, violets are blue. You dont have an idea about who he was, do you?

well as far as i know Ataturk was the one who finished up the Ottomans and Started Turkey.

so i do know

 well that guessing is more of a fact than fiction, or you think that there were not any Arabs killed by the Ottomans?! and for your comfort i would say iam sure that there are many Syrians whos Greadgrand fathers were killed by the Ottomans.

 and now about the mod thing, i think its better than i dont comment on every word you said , instead i would remind you that if you have any problem with any mod you are free to PM the admin about your problems.

maybe your sea of wise knowledge will inspire them to make  you a mod. who knows?.

 

no comments really. but i have to admitt nice job Ataturk , great sets of facts. 

Originally posted by Oguzoglu stating fact from my own experience. What kind of own experience you have? Do you have a greatpa whose stomach was searched for British coins when fighting for his so called Muslim brothers?

still doing your inventions again,

this quote was not about greatpas whos stomach was searched for british coins when fighting for there so called muslim brothers

this qoute was from this post of mine:

well as i mentioned before most Arabs dont even know much about turks and they think of turks as brothers and dont even know anything about ataturk or who is he or what he did, and also nothing about the last period of the Ottomans rule,

our education is almost free from any disadvantages, specially the early history part.

not iam not saying that is the correct thing to teach and not saying it is wrong, iam just stating fact from my own experience.

as you can see above i was talking about the education system in Arabic countries, nothing about greatpas ok?

pluse your greatpas where fighting your so called brothers not for them

Originally posted by Oguzoglu who many of them think of the villagers as backward and ignorant "Köylü, milletin efendisidir." (Villagers are the lords of the nation) Mustafa Kemal Ataturk. Noting that our country population was greater than our urban population until the last 15 years. And we are also villagers. Belittling the villager isnt our habit.

i was talking about many Modern Turks in big cities what they think of Villagers.

note Many doesn't mean Ataturk and Doesn't mean all Turks.

 

waw finally i finished, it was fun really

but i dont know if you have a replay with more irrelevant posts and errors or more stories about Lawrance worshippings, maybe his temples this time or the Casinos in Makkah. anyway if you did have something i wont be there to replay since this one was too much fun that i wont require more untill next month or errore showing.

wish me luck in my assignments

salam

-------------

note Many doesn't mean Ataturk and Doesn't mean all Turks..

Many Modern Turks at city were came from villages, It is not so old that moving to city. Sometimes Istanbul was called as biggest village of world. I dont think we have much stupid who belittle villagers, but of course they are some morons. I think, maybe you mean belittleing of conservatives? Yes,there are some people who belittle them, but they are not much again. Dont take net, as a representative of Turkey.

Gold?!! Are you even familiar with the issue? Anatolians were starving when the Ottomans were spending their money for another mosque in Yemen or Syria. Maybe if they even cared about anatolia, Alevis wouldnt need to rebel. and Bektashis didnt rebel, Alevis did. Bektashis were the most respected society of the empire, their orders were always important and gazis were mostly after Bektashi babas. Until Yavuz decided to get rid of them all for his Sunnite brothers in Arabia.

Jenisaries were bektasis, (Infact they are mostly only bektasis) and they  rebelled for gold. For them Ulufe was more precious than country himself.

For Alevis rebellion, Their rebellion was mostly religious, Should I remind you, their love for shah of Iran? I am sure this has no relation with their living standards and for that times, anatolia was richer.Dont try to persuade yourself.

I know, as I say, i didnt care. So here is my rephrasing: "Do you want me to repeat myself again (instead of convincing)?

You didnt say it here, you said it before. But I meant our language revolution and  was none of your business

Paranoid claims deserve to be replied with paranoid sarcastic posts.

And it is my time, why stealing it?

You dont have to talk about it while mentioning what kind of kafers we are. You call us Arab haters just because we werent the victims of Arab nationalism like the other heavy Islamic societies, you blamed our national leader by being a European wannabe just because his revolutions werent fitting your terms of Islam, what kind of mentality is this? Ist it what they teach in you schools? When you're accusing our education system with teaching hatred against others to us, you and al beduin show your education's real face. Claims such as "Ataturk is a blonde vampire for Muslim souls". "Ataturk was a western wannabe", show what kind of educational system you still have your minds totally invaded with...

You claimed we were just trying to be western wannabes just because we were modernizing ourselves, we hate Arabs, you accused our educational system with teaching hatred against arabs, YOU JUSTIFIED THE ARAB BACKSTABBING. It is nothing else but extreme nationalistic propoganda. I bet they teach you that Yemeni shiks with their hanjars were the shadows of God against kafer Turks.

Inventing paranoid stuff is your job as we all witness and enjoy your imagination here...

You claimed Ataturk have ended Ottoman Empire. What is this? A myth thought to young Arab brains by your national education system or your paranoid dream? Make up your mind, you conflict yourself.

When Ataturk was fighting for the Turkish war of Independence, Arabs were praying Lawrance and padishah signed the treaty of Sevres, ending the empire. If you dont have any ideas, just dont belittle yourself by repeating your nationalist propoganda again and again.

you that i didnt say that it was my business and i was just stating my own opinions.

There is an opinion, and there is propoganda. I am just helping you o differ these.

I am trying to, but I just cant refuse to have some fun...

Anbd I explained that wasnt more sense.

Read my quote again. Mehmet Ali backstabbed Ottomans too, and I know that. But it caused Egypt to become English colony. But the arab revolt caused a whole empire to dissappear.

It was declining. It was going to end for sure. But the last, biggest punch came from the back. You know that.

No. What Arabs did was when they were the most tolerated (indulged) community of the empire, they took the tradition of nationalistic revolting from the other subjects, but the difference btw arabs and Serbs, Greeks etc. was that Arabs BACKSTABBED the empirte. When the others were believing they were fighting for freedom and against Muslim nonbelievers, Arabs knew they were fighting for their shiks greed and more British coins, and for the faith of Lawrance-u Akbar.

History also writes that Arabs betrayed the Ottoman Empire. Is it very hard to accept that? Maybe if arab shiks didnt sell thyemselves to their beloved Lawrance and British brothers, Palestinians wouldnt be starving to death today, and Arafat wouldnt have said "We are facing the consequences of our betrayel.".

Yeah, we want to forget the rest. We want to forget our so called Muslim brothers loving British coins more than us, and loving Lawrance more than Muhammed PBUH once.

But I wish we were like them. Look at the ones who are like you. Persians werent like you once, and I know they were much more happy with their shahs than their mullahs.

Doesnt akbar mean great? Wasnt Lawrance and Wahab were both great men? I am not angry. Actually I am having fun, I love when someone starts a nationalistic flame war and me being able to reply every single joke of him. I didnt reply your propoganda in the last discussion because it wasnt as funny as this one...

WHAT do you KNOW? You dont know ANYTHING. I wont get into proving procedure because it is like proving you arent a camel or elephant.

No, there werent.

I wont, I am trying to enjoy it as much as I can...

Bah, I cant be one. I am not the kind of man who cares to waste his wise knowledge trying to enlighten the dark brains. I rather prefer making fun with those dark brains...

Thanks.

waw finally i finished, it was fun really

For me too, but since my time is more important than enjoying propoganda for me, I have to finish here.

Well, if there WERE any temples built for him, I bet Arabic government demolished them to build casinos and hotels there, like they did to Ajyad castle...

No problem. Whenever you need to have fun, remind me and I'll show you your elementary history books (sorry, comics)...

Of course. Lawrance be with you...

shalom...

Jenisaries were bektasis, (Infact they are mostly only bektasis) and they  rebelled for gold. For them Ulufe was more precious than country himself.[/QUOTE9

They were the ONLY Bektashis? Even Most of Albania was Bektashis that time, what are you talking about?

Ulufe was more important than country for janissaries, and Arabia was more important to some padishahs than Turks themselves. But anyway, Ottoman empire was a great one for sure, lets hold on to our main discussion.

BTW Azimuth, if you are so passionato to continue with your talk show, lets not busy others with it and do it privately by pm. You should hold on to the main discussion, as a MOD, it is your responsibility as you know (I hope)...

Check your facts correct please.

Safavid Turks strated to cooperate Austurians in the late 16th and early 17th century. Far later than 1st Vienna Siege.

In 1606, because of that, Zitva Torok treaty was signed. According to that treaty, Austurians stopped considering Ottoman Emperors as supremem leader of the world. They stopped paying tribute...

1st Vienna Siege was just a showdown. Suleyman I had no intention to conquer the other half of Austurians. Ottomans tended to take taxes from all Germanic world by theratening Austurian Monarch...

2nd was truly a catastrophe, correct...

We?

Ulufe was more important than country for janissaries, and Arabia was more important to some padishahs than Turks themselves. But anyway, Ottoman empire was a great one for sure, lets hold on to our main discussion.

do we have any proof to support this claim? I didnt heard it before.

They were the ONLY Bektashis? Even Most of Albania was Bektashis that time, what are you talking about?

I dont know bektasis in albania, but In Turkey It is not so widely followed. Borning of bektasi is also borning of Yeniceris. It was distored later.(Acording to Sunnis). In fact I am realy curious about albanian bektasis, do they accept drinking helal too.

Bektasis begin more near to sunni, and Its ended more near to alevis.

The Ottoman Empire was an Illegal in the eyes of Islam Caliphate

are you  caliph?