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Cumans

Printed From: History Community ~ All Empires
Category: Regional History or Period History
Forum Name: Ethnic History of Central Asia
Forum Discription: Discussions about the ethnic origins of Central Asian peoples. All topics related to ethnicity should go here.
URL: http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=5164
Printed Date: 16-Apr-2024 at 10:39
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Topic: Cumans
Posted By: minchickie
Subject: Cumans
Date Posted: 23-Aug-2005 at 02:52

T

 

 

 

 

he Cumans, also known as Polovtsy (Slavic for yellowish) were a nomadic West Turkic tribe living on the north of the Black Sea along the Volga. They are identified with the Western branch of the Kipchaks.

They invaded Southern Ukraine, Moldova, Wallachia and part of Transylvania in the 11th century and from here they continued their plundering of the Byzantine Empire, Hungary and Kievan Rus'.

In 1089, they were defeated by Ladislaus I of Hungary, then they were again defeated by Vladimir Monomakh in the 12th century and crushed by the Tatars in 1241. Many took refuge in Hungary and Bulgaria, where they were assimilated. Their name can still be seen in placenames such as the city of Kumanovo in Macedonia, Comãneºti in Moldavia and Comana in Dobruja. Cumans having settled in Hungary had their own self-government there, and their name (kun) is still preserved in the county names Bács-Kiskun and Jász-Nagykun-Szolnok, and town names as (eg.) Kiskunhalas, Kiskunszentmiklós as well. The Cumans from the current Russia joined the khanate of the Golden Horde.

In the 13th century, Western Cumans became Catholic Christians, while Eastern assumed Islam. The Catholic "Diocese of the Cumans" included Romania and Moldova. This title was kept until 1523. The principality of Wallachia was established by Basarab I, son of the Cumanian warlord Tihomir of Wallachia at the beginning of the 14th century. The name Basarab is considered as being of Cuman origin, meaning "Father King".



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Replies:
Posted By: Nagyfejedelem
Date Posted: 23-Aug-2005 at 04:13
The Cumans not only in 1089 were defeated by Ladislaus I. I know about free big Cumanian invasions: controlled by Kutesk, Kapolcs and Ákos.


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 11-Sep-2005 at 06:07

Western branch of the Kipchaks

                  Also other Branch of Kipchaks is Sellahadin Eyyübi (very Famous Commander) and His soldiers.

                 

        



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Posted By: erci
Date Posted: 11-Sep-2005 at 11:24
nice pics, thanks

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"When one hears such music, what can one say, but .... Salieri?"


Posted By: DayI
Date Posted: 11-Sep-2005 at 11:46
Originally posted by Tengrikut

Western branch of the Kipchaks

                  Also other Branch of Kipchaks is Sellahadin Eyyübi (very Famous Commander) and His soldiers.

pls show sources to confirm that, its known that he is a kurd or an arab.



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Bu mıntıka'nın Dayı'sı
http://imageshack.us - [IMG - http://www.allempires.com/forum/uploads/DayI/2006-03-17_164450_bscap021.jpg -


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 11-Sep-2005 at 17:12

If I remember correctly Sellahetin Eyubi was from  Konya, Turkey region and was Turkic.

While Sellahedin Keykubat from Arabia was Kurdish.



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Posted By: AydoluAtsiz
Date Posted: 11-Sep-2005 at 19:59

tatar i think is it the other way around. sellahadin keykubat was turkic. a selcuk turk. sellahedin eyubi was kurdish. the same sellahadin as in kingdom of heaven.

it was keykubat who was from konya i believe.



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Türk duygusu her Türkçüye en tatlý kýmýzdýr;
Türk ülküsü candan da aziz bayraðýmýzdýr...
Darbeyle gönüllerde yatan ülkü silinmez!
Atsýz yere düþmekle bu bayrak yere inmez!...


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 11-Sep-2005 at 21:23

Aydolu Atsiz,

Yes you are right, I just found the following information

Salâhu d-din Yussuf Ayyubi

Tikrit, Iraq 1138- Damascus 1193) First Ayyubid sultan, and famous for having recaptured Jerusalem from the Crusaders. Saladin was of Kurdish heritage, and all through his career he used mainly Kurdish officials as his closest partners.  Saladin managed to revitalize the economy of Egypt

----------------------------------------

Alladin Keykubat

The Statue of Sultan Keykubat stands at the western approaches of Alanya and is one of the first sights greeting the buses arriving from the airport. The Seljuk Sultan ruled Alanya in the 13th century. The statue shows Alaaddin Keykubat astride his horse ordering the Seljuk troops to attack.

 


 



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Posted By: Hak-Khan
Date Posted: 13-Sep-2005 at 15:09
Originally posted by Tengrikut

Western branch of the Kipchaks

                  Also other Branch of Kipchaks is Sellahadin Eyyübi (very Famous Commander) and His soldiers.

                 

        



selahattin eyyübi is not Turkish

he was arab or persian


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Posted By: Seko
Date Posted: 13-Sep-2005 at 15:21

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saladin - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saladin

Kurdish.



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Posted By: great_hunnic_empire
Date Posted: 13-Sep-2005 at 15:55

Nice post Minchickie

 

Saladdin was a arab and have no relations with kurds

His army was controlled by Turks and arab generals.. Memluks Turkish Empire was descendants of Turkish generals who controlled Saladdin army.

 

 



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The land that my horse has rode on, there shall not be a grass againAtilla the Hun
p2.forumforfree.com/turan.html


Posted By: Seko
Date Posted: 13-Sep-2005 at 16:12

He trained with Seljuks early in his career.

An authoritative statement leaves me with this one question: Do you mind posting your source?



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Posted By: tadamson
Date Posted: 14-Sep-2005 at 09:53
Saladin, was a Kurd whose Arabic name is Salah ad-Din Yusuf.
Born in Kurdistan, educated in Cairo.  At 14 joind the service of Nur ad-Din (Abbuyis Sultan of Syria and his Uncle).  Served in the invasions of Egypt and at age 31 was made govenor of Egypt.  When Nur ad-Din died he won control of the Abbuyid empire.

No signficant Turkis aides or generals that I can recall, nor did he use many Ghilman in his forces (quite a few Turkman allies though).


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rgds.

      Tom..


Posted By: DayI
Date Posted: 14-Sep-2005 at 10:25
his brother whas called Tughril (or any family of him).

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Bu mıntıka'nın Dayı'sı
http://imageshack.us - [IMG - http://www.allempires.com/forum/uploads/DayI/2006-03-17_164450_bscap021.jpg -


Posted By: great_hunnic_empire
Date Posted: 14-Sep-2005 at 10:41

Born in Kurdistan? There is no place called officially or recognised lands in the history..

 

So you can't claim that he was born in this called land in thousand years ago.. He was a arab, Simple. You probably watched too much of Kingdom of Heaven

Bye for now

 

 



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The land that my horse has rode on, there shall not be a grass againAtilla the Hun
p2.forumforfree.com/turan.html


Posted By: Seko
Date Posted: 14-Sep-2005 at 14:00

Another brilliant arguement!

He positioned his horse and rode off into the abyss known as the web. And perhaps the Great Hun has returned to his long lost empire. When will he reappear. Only he knows. 



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Posted By: great_hunnic_empire
Date Posted: 14-Sep-2005 at 18:03

Soon Seko

 

Seko  Turk' musun hocam



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The land that my horse has rode on, there shall not be a grass againAtilla the Hun
p2.forumforfree.com/turan.html


Posted By: Seko
Date Posted: 14-Sep-2005 at 21:09
Originally posted by great_hunnic_empire

Soon Seko

 

Seko  Turk' musun hocam

 

   Ayip ettin arkadas. Turkish-American.



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Posted By: tadamson
Date Posted: 14-Sep-2005 at 21:18
Originally posted by great_hunnic_empire

Born in Kurdistan? There is no place called officially or recognised lands in the history..

 So you can't claim that he was born in this called land in thousand years ago.. He was a arab, Simple. You probably watched too much of Kingdom of Heaven

Bye for now

 


For anone interested...

My apologies, the village is now part of Azerbeijan.  Kurdistan is the term used by Minhaj al-Siraj Juzjani in the Tabaqat-i-Nasiri (written between 1240 and 1260AD, one of the most important histories of the Islamic world).  In this  Sultan Salah-ud-Din, Yusuf, son of Aiyub-al-Kurdi fith of the Kurdiah Maliks of Sham gets eight pages (a very respecatable portion of the 1300 or so).



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rgds.

      Tom..


Posted By: Cent
Date Posted: 15-Sep-2005 at 10:30

"Saladdin was a arab and have no relations with kurds"

And where do you get your information from?



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They don't speak enough about the Kurds, because we have never taken hostages, never hijacked a plane. But I am proud of this.
Abdul Rahman Qassemlou


Posted By: DayI
Date Posted: 15-Sep-2005 at 10:38
Originally posted by tadamson

Originally posted by great_hunnic_empire

Born in Kurdistan? There is no place called officially or recognised lands in the history..

 So you can't claim that he was born in this called land in thousand years ago.. He was a arab, Simple. You probably watched too much of Kingdom of Heaven

Bye for now

 


For anone interested...

My apologies, the village is now part of Azerbeijan.  Kurdistan is the term used by Minhaj al-Siraj Juzjani in the Tabaqat-i-Nasiri (written between 1240 and 1260AD, one of the most important histories of the Islamic world).  In this  Sultan Salah-ud-Din, Yusuf, son of Aiyub-al-Kurdi fith of the Kurdiah Maliks of Sham gets eight pages (a very respecatable portion of the 1300 or so).

Ok a question to you then, whas one of Salahaddins bro or his close family called Tughril?



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Bu mıntıka'nın Dayı'sı
http://imageshack.us - [IMG - http://www.allempires.com/forum/uploads/DayI/2006-03-17_164450_bscap021.jpg -


Posted By: tadamson
Date Posted: 15-Sep-2005 at 11:13
Originally posted by DayI

Ok a question to you then, whas one of Salahaddins bro or his close family called Tughril?



Not that I'm aware of..   Turkish names are very rare in Kurdish clans.

Are you mixing in characters from the much later romantic novels about Saladin (he became a legend similar to King Arthur and Charlemane)?



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rgds.

      Tom..


Posted By: DayI
Date Posted: 15-Sep-2005 at 11:18
never tought of that (mixing characters or someting)

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Bu mıntıka'nın Dayı'sı
http://imageshack.us - [IMG - http://www.allempires.com/forum/uploads/DayI/2006-03-17_164450_bscap021.jpg -


Posted By: Seko
Date Posted: 16-Sep-2005 at 08:58


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Posted By: great_hunnic_empire
Date Posted: 19-Sep-2005 at 20:07

King Arthur ?? i thought he is a cartoon character... there arent any person like this

 

nor lion hearted richard... he was slave in arab lands



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The land that my horse has rode on, there shall not be a grass againAtilla the Hun
p2.forumforfree.com/turan.html


Posted By: great_hunnic_empire
Date Posted: 19-Sep-2005 at 20:08
Originally posted by Seko

Originally posted by great_hunnic_empire

Soon Seko

 

Seko  Turk' musun hocam

 

   Ayip ettin arkadas. Turkish-American.

 

seko kusura bakma gec cevap verdim

 

tanistigima memnun oldum...



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The land that my horse has rode on, there shall not be a grass againAtilla the Hun
p2.forumforfree.com/turan.html


Posted By: tadamson
Date Posted: 19-Sep-2005 at 20:59
Originally posted by great_hunnic_empire

King Arthur ?? i thought he is a cartoon character... there arent any person like this

 

nor lion hearted richard... he was slave in arab lands



Are these just random quotes ?  guesses ?
I fail to see any connection with Cumans ?


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rgds.

      Tom..


Posted By: great_hunnic_empire
Date Posted: 19-Sep-2005 at 21:18

i did not claim any connection between these people and Cumans..

 



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The land that my horse has rode on, there shall not be a grass againAtilla the Hun
p2.forumforfree.com/turan.html


Posted By: tadamson
Date Posted: 20-Sep-2005 at 08:05
Originally posted by great_hunnic_empire

i did not claim any connection between these people and Cumans..

 


This is a thread to discuss Cumans................



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rgds.

      Tom..


Posted By: Seko
Date Posted: 20-Sep-2005 at 10:13
If there was any doubt, the picture I posted is of a Kipcak (Cuman) steppe warrior.

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Posted By: merced12
Date Posted: 11-Oct-2005 at 11:26
cumans wariror
kumans

Kumans              


         Kuman name, Origin and Racial Features
       Kumans, national composition and the meaning and origin of whose name is being discussed for years are cited under different names in sources. Therefore, they constitute an exception in Turkish societies living insteppes. Byzantines and Latins call them "Kumanos, Kumanoi, Cumanus, Ko-mani", Russians "Polovets", Germans and other Western nations "Falben, Falones, Valani, Valwen, Pallidi", and Armenians "Khartes,", Hungarians "Kun", Muslims "Kipcak" (Kifsak, Khifcakli). The names given by Russians, Germans, other Westerners and Armenians express in fact their color (yello, yellowish, light yellow, straw yellow). In the Russian chronicles where their name is recorded first (memorials of 1055 and 1056), Kumans, who were told to be of the same origin with Turkmens, Pachenegs and Torks (Uzes), were wanted to be defined with rather their outer appearance. Indeed, all sources either of eastern or western origin agree that Kumans were blond with brown hair.
       Ibn Hurdadbih (in 885) explained the name Kipchak as ("angry, quick-tempered") in Islamic and Georgian sources and said that Kuman and Kun names meant "yellowish" and "pale" in Turkish dialects. J. Marquart, who conducted the first broad investigation on the origin of Kuman-Kipchaks, alleged that they were from "Kun" clan of Mongol tribe named "Murqa" which he claimed to have lived in the vicinity of Amur river in far east, was not accepted because he read some of the words in the source incorrectly and thought the word "firka" meaning party in Arabic was a name of a nation called "Murqa". This is because, Kumans faces and bodies did not bear any Mongol characteristics and there was no Mongol elements in Kuman-Kipchak language. However, some investigators who examined the racial properties of Kumans established some relations between them and Ariyan races (Indian-Europeans). Some westerner scientists including j. Marquart, P. Pelliot, W. Barthold, D. Rassovsky etc. whom we know that they are not successful in distinguishing both racilaly and culturally Turks from Mongols, stressed that Kuman character which they thought not to pertain to Turks may have derived from an Indian-European nation which became Turks in Mongol region at last.
       Even Russian Grum-Grzimajlo dared to claim such society lived in northern China. It was stated that in 2nd century B.C. there was a tribe mentioned in Chinese sources (Khan period) as "brown haired, blue-green eyed" named Wu-sun (or U-sun) which continued their existence after the birth of Christ with a wolf myth which was peculiar to Turks and who were from Hun origin and culture who were called as "Kun-mo" or "Kun-mi" (Kunbeg, Kunbi?) living between the northern slopes of Tanri mountains and Isik Lake in 2nd century B.C. On the other hand, the Islam sources (El Birun about 1050, Mervezi, first quarter of 12th century) reveal that a Turkish tribe named Kun in Middle Asia withdrew to "Sarilar Ülkesi (Country of the Yellow" (Þarya) leaving their territories on the attempt of Mongol Kitan state, which was established in Nornther Chine in early 10th century, to conquer the whole continent as Liao destiny in China in 936 in particular. The relation of those Kuns, with "Yellows", with the same meaning, was weighed: For Mervezi, at least a part of Yellows or "Yellow Uygurs" (see Kan-çou Uygur State) who withdrew as far as Aral lake can be associated with "Sa Turgises" which were supposed to be in "Sarigh" town mentioned by Ibn Hurdadbih. Moreover, there are steppes on the way thought to be extended by Kimek country, recorded by Gerdizi as (Ulu Kuman?).
       According to the last investigaitons on Kun-Kuman-Yellow Kipchak issue, the situation is as follows: Oghuzes between Itil-Seyhun-Irtiþ in Middle Asia (before Kuman's migration to west), Kipchaks in the vicinity of iþim and Kimeks toward Altays; Karluks around Isik Lake, and Yellow Uygurs were to further east in Nan-þan region (Sariya in Mervezi). There were Christian Onguts in the vicinity of Huang-ho turn. Kuns were living in those places at those times (Because Mervezi, probably, confusing with Onguts, say that Kums were Christians). Kuns (Kumans) who went to "San" drove with them a mass of Yellow Uygurs and went to Turkmen (Karluk) region from Cungarya gate and then entered Kipchak region in the north. If it is possible to associate the news in Ibn'ul Esir that 300 thousand tents of people went out of China" and wanted to attack Karahanli country but was drawn back by Karahanli Togan Bey at 8-day distance to Balasagun, then we have to accept that the reason turning kun-yellow migration to Kipcak territories should be Karahanli resistance and counter-attack.
       In fact, Kipchak mass from Western Gok-Turk societies were a branch from Kimes in Irtis region inhabited in isim-Tobol valleys. Although Kasgarli was from Yimek (Ýmek) tribe and this tribe was considered to be the greatest of Kipchaks, it is said that Kipchaks left themselves apart. We understand from such fact according to Marquart that at those times (in second half of 11th century) Kipchak branch was dominant among Kimeks who lived as a bilateral federation (Kimek=two Yimek meaning two). Such power shift should have occurred in the beginning of the century and Kipchaks, gaining power by Kun (Kuman) Yellows' coming from the south in a period when they dominated territories from Balkas to Irtic, headed towards the west over Volga this time altogether probably because of Kitan pressure in the east and rather because scarcity of place and pasture, and on withdrawal of Uz mass before them to Balkans in 1048, passed to Southern Russia area.

Political History of Kumans              

         
       Therefore, Kumans appear for the first time in Russian chronicles in 1054. In this period when their dominance was spread as far as Dnieper, while they maintained "Kipchak" name in the east, they began to be called with the aforementioned names in the west. Kuman (Kipchak) dominance in Northern Black Sea steppes for more than 1.5 centuries until Mongol invasion left deep traces in Russian and Balkan history. Kumans defeated Russians in 1061 after leader Bolus who agreed with Pereyaslavl Knez in 1055, and in 1068, entered Pereyaslavl again on grounds that they took some Uz and Pacheneg groups fleeing them under their service and routed united army of Russian Knezes (Alta river war, near Kiyef); they approached near Cernigo knev country. Kiyef Knez escaped to Poland. Kumans (Kipchaks) who made raids on Rostovstev, Neyatin region in 1071, Voin town in 1079, and Novgorod area the next year, spread their dominance in 1080's as far as Danube mouth from Balkas lake-Talas vicinity, balance center being Don-Dniester.
       This land which contained Kuban region in Caucasus was extending as far as Itýl Bulgarian border along Oka-Sura rivers in the north. Kuman-Kipchak area which constituted the whole Eastern Europe-Western Siberia Steppe regions were called "Deþt-i Kipchak" ("Kipchak Steppe") in Islam sources therefrom, and was named "Comania" in western sources (Idrisi, Rubruquis, Plano Carpini etc.) For D. Rassovsky'ye, in this period when Russians, Bulgars, Alans, Burtases (Mordva), Hazars and Ulahs lived under dominance of Ulahs, Kuman-Kipchak country consisted of 5 parts: Middle Asia, Churn-Volga, Don-Donetz, lower Dnieper, Danube.
       There Kuman-Kipchaks were living under different units under governance of their own leaders (khans) each, and the allies of Byzantium in Lebunium war were undoubtedly the members of "Danube" unit. In those times, leaders named Altunapa and sarýýhan were primary people who played a role in "Kipchak Steppe". Kumans first entered Hungaria in1091 and then Poland in 1092, they appeared again in Byzantium territorias in 1093.
       Their raids on Russian region continued between 1093 and 1094 too. It is understood that they did not aim at invading territories. As we saw in Pachenegs, they did not leave steppe atmosphere like in all steppe-Turk political community including Hazars, and tried to maintain under pressure the political communities beyond the steppes in order to keep away from external hazards by keeping land appropriate for their own lifestyles.
        Peaces realized within the conditions of Turkish territory security used to last as long as the opposite party did not break his promise. Such condition consolidated marriages sometimes. According to an agreement, Tugorkan (or Togur Khan)'s daughter married to Kiyef Knez Svyatopolk (1094); and after that, Cernigov Knez Oleg married to leader Osuluk (Uzluk)'s daughter. Thus, most of the wifes of Knezes and notables were consisting of Kuman princesses and daughters in a period. However, Kuman-Russian relations were not at ease. Because, Knezes tried to provide support from Kumans in their struggles (for example Oleg in 1095) or eliminated the men of Kuman leader with them as soon as they found the opportunity. Two envoys sent to Kiyef in early 1096 (itler and Kitan) were killed with their retinues. The event caused a war. Tugorkan and leader Kure burned some towns, and looted Kiyef and vicinity (May 1096).
       However, they lost the war against Knez alliance, Tugorkan and his son died in the war. Kiyef prince Vladimir Monomakli whose two sons were married to the daughters of Kuman leaders behaved more seriously and tried to reconcile Knezes with his general meetings arranged in Liyubec town in 1097 and organize Russian resistance and won a great success against Kumans leading all Knezes in 110/3. Kumans replied with violent attacks in short intervals (4 times between 1105 and 1111). Such struggles filled Russian chronicles and enriched first Russian folk literature. After death of 4th Monomakh, when conflicts between Knezes grew violent again, Kumans could not make use of that. Kuman union in the vicinity of Kiyef which lost its youth and resistant resisting leaders one by one during constant conflicts showed signs of weekness.
       Some of the Danube commanders were performing military service in Hungary going there. In the second half of 12th century, we saw that Dnieper Kumans got some better. Those took the offensive against Pereyaslavl Knez country under leadership of Koncek and Kobyak (Kopek) (1177, 1179). Those in the vicinity of Aksu (Bug) made raids toward Kiyef, but were defeated by joint Russian forces in a violent raid led by Knez Svyatoslav in 1184. Rumor has it that they lost 7000 captives among whom there was 417 beys or sons of beys. However, the reaction of Kumans was harsh: They destoryed joint Russian army under the command of Novgorod-Seversk Knez Igor by pressing near lower Don at the coast of Kayali (today's Kagalnik) river. In this war commanded by Leader Koncek, all of the Knezes in Russian army including prince Igor were caught.
       They behaved the captives well, and the injuries of Igor, who managed to escape afterwards, was treated. The main subject of Russian national epic (Slovo o Polkii Igoreve) told to be the masterpiece of Russian literature is this 1185 conflict. In this Igor epic, the details of the expedition, nature, heroism, sadness, the cries of Igor's wife were all told skillfully. There emerged some allegations that the text, which was published several times since its first publication in 1800 in Russia, was improvised afterwards, however, there is no doubt that it reflects the historical event and it has a documentary value because it showed Turkish influence on Russians in terms of language, war technique, equipment, mining etc.

   Kumans (Kipchaks) in the vicinity of Don and Kuban also had close relations with Georgians which caused their transition to the north of Caucasus. In the beginning of the rule of Georgian king Bagratli David the 2nd (1088-1125) which corresponds to the strongest period of Great Seljukian Empire, he tried to resist Islam-Turkish pressure and if possible, take Abhaza country and other Georgian regions back from Seljukians by providing military support from Kipchaks by establishing contacts with their closest unit to them; and conducted some operations to the south with their assistance (1109-1110), and married a Kipchak princess known for her beauty. This girl was the granddaughter of the aforementioned ledader Saruhan(Charaghan) and daughter of his son Atrak (Atraka) who was acceded to the leadership because of his being old. Atrak went to Georgia with crowded masses (40 thousand families) under his command upon invitation of the king (1118, the first grand immigration). Those Kuman-Kipchak masses revived Coruh and Kur environments "in a unique strength and vastness".

       They took under control the Muslim emirates linked to Seljukians and with a horsemen army estimated to be about 40 thousand people, launched expeditions to Sirvan and Azerbaijan. In 1121, they conquered Borcali stream vicinity. In 1123, they made Tiflis they had conquered the capital of Georgian kingdom. In 1124, they advanced as far as Ispir and Oltu. They collected tax from Sirvan Shahs, had constant struggles against Ispir, Mengücüklü and Artuklu beys and Azerbaijan Atabey country afterwards. Kipchaks, establishing Georgian military force in King Giorgi the 3rd period (1156-1184), became totally dominant with famous leader Kubasar who undertook chief commander position by protecting the king from the rebel army commander Ivane Orbelian.

       The Georgian state, which was founded under administration of Kipchak Beys such as Kutlu Arslan, lived its brightest age in military, political and historical aspects with entry of new Kipchak masses under command of Sevinc, brother of Kipchak leader, from the north (second grand immigration: "New Kipchaks") in the period of beautiful queen Thamara (1184-1213). Today, it is noted that people who spoke a language very close to Kipchak Turkish in the vicinity of Kur, Coruh and Cildir lake, had close relations with Kuman-Kipchak masses who came there in the same period and some motifs in regional folk literature bore the memories of that period. Il-Deniz, a notable personage of Seljukian period, who was the founder of Azerbaijan Atabey country (1146-1225), was also a Kipchak Turk from Caucasus.

       The Kumans remained in Crimea peninsula apart from those who emptied Don region perhaps even completely and Kuban region partially because of their arrival to Georgia, inhabited in cities and started trade life, and even established some small towns.
However, although they occupied Kiyef in 1203 and took Galicia from Hungarians together with Russians for a short period of time, in early 13th century, there was nearly no Kuman communities left politically powerful under "Deþt-i Kipchak" union. While the ones to the east were living their old tribal lives in steppes under names such as Kipchak, Kanglý, Yimek, Uran etc., they increased their contacts with Harezmþahlar State "especially in the period of Sultan Alaeddin Tekis" (1172-1200), and took military duties in this Turkish-Islam state and performed great services in enhancing of the borders. In the eve of invasion of the Middle East by Mongols, they comprised nearly all of the military power of Hazemsah empire. However, this army was totally eliminated by Mongols (1220).

       Deþti Kipcak failed against Mongols. The communities of Kumans in the vicinity of Crimea, who nearly turned to be the assistants of Russians, by being forced to leave the great commercial port of Black Sea and its vicinity to Anatolian Seljukians (1226), could not recover from the damages of the economic shock. Kuman-Kipchaks who were defeated together with Russians (Kalka war) against two Mongol divisions commanded by Cebe and Subatai even in 1223, could not resist the Mongol army commanded by the grandson of Genghis, Batu, who advanced toward inner Deþt-i Kipchak and ran over Itil Bulgaria routing Russian Knezes' military forces.

       In Don-Donetz basin, the forces under leader Koten command were separated (1239) and the leader took refuge in Hungary with those who could save themselves. A crowded community of Kuman-Kipchaks went to Itil Bulgaria and gaining the population majority there, caused generalization of Kipchak Turkish instead of Bulgarian dialect. After Altýnordu state was established whole Kipchak steppes being invaded by Mongols (1256), Kuman-Kipchaks had no roles left despite the term "Deþt-i Kipchak" was used for a long time.

       Kuman-Kipchaks showed themselves better in Egypt at the same time. Kuman-Kipchaks whom we saw that because of their being separated and narrowing possibilities had aggreviating life conditions as from early 13th century, began to send against money to other and more prosperous countries their sturdy and healty children in years of scarcity and animal diseases according to an old tradition. Since Eyyubi state had to provide military force from foreigners, Kipchak, Oghuz, Chircassian youth from Deþt-i Kipchak and Caucasus and trained them in special barracks. At the same time, we see many Kuman-Kipchaks youths went to Egypt and took duty in the army. At last, upon proclamation of Ýzzüddin Ay-beg as sultan of Eyyubis in 1250, the Egypt "Turkish State" was seized by Kuman-Kipchak people in a short time.

       One of these, Sultan Baybars, succeeding Sultan Kotuz, who was probably also a Kipchak, showed himself as both a powerful soldier and a high statesman (1260-1277). He became the distinguished ruler of his times by reviving Islam caliphate and driving Mongols away from Syria. Sultan Kalavun (1279-1290), who succeeded him, was also a Kipchak. As "the greatest Islam ruler" who defeated Mongol-Armenian-European joint armies, continued his contacts with his native land, had friendly rlations with Altinordu state, and became the founder of first ruler dynasty in Egyptian-Turkish state. His sons reigned the state until the government passed to Circassian Kolemens (1290-1382). The state was referred to as "Turkish State (Ed-Devlet'üt-Türkiya or Devlet'ül-Etrak) within this peirod, and Egypt and Syria were called "Turkey". The common language and common culture for the people was Turkish excluding the local people who spoke Arabic in general. While such situation continued under Circassian rule, the country passed to Ottoman Turks (1517).

       Sultan Balaban (1266-1286), who is more commonly called as Ulug Khan, being the founder of the 2nd ruler family in Delhi Turkish Sultanate in India, was also one of Kipchak personages who went to Delhi in his youth and took state service.

 

source is    http://www.ozturkler.com/data_english/0001/0001_14.htm - http://www.ozturkler.com/data_english/0001/0001_14.htm      



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http://www.turks.org.uk/ - http://www.turks.org.uk/
16th century world;
Ottomans all Roman orients
Safavids in Persia
Babur in india
`azerbaycan bayragini karabagdan asacagim``


Posted By: 
Date Posted: 11-Oct-2005 at 11:41
Some resent archaeological finds that some Kipchaks had a more mongoloid appernace.


Posted By: merced12
Date Posted: 11-Oct-2005 at 11:54

sorry kipcaks is turk.you must write source

 



-------------
http://www.turks.org.uk/ - http://www.turks.org.uk/
16th century world;
Ottomans all Roman orients
Safavids in Persia
Babur in india
`azerbaycan bayragini karabagdan asacagim``


Posted By: arfunda
Date Posted: 12-Oct-2005 at 05:01

I want to talk you about Anotolian Kipchaks. There were also Kipchaks in Anotolia before Seljuks' entrance to Anotolia in 1071. Some of them were the soldiers with salary of Byzantine army. During a war betweeen Byzantine and Seljuk armies, a Kipchak leader (Tamýþ) and his friends see the Seljuks and they realize that: "We have similar clothes and we talk the same language. Then why do we fight them?" So they change side.

There were also Kipchaks in Eflani. When Fatih Sultan Mehmet conquered Bartýn (Parthenius) and Amasra (Amastris/Sesamos) in 1490, he put the Kipchaks of Eflani into Bartýn where Greek (maybe Armenian too, because it is said that many Greek and Armenian speaking people of Paflogonia converted into and/ selected to be muslims in 1600s) speaking natives and some Oguzs lived.

So Kipchaks began to live in Bartin. Kipchaks speak northwestern dialect of Turkish language and Oguzs speak southwestern dialect of languge. The Turkish language spoken in Bartin is a synthesis of both dilects (A linguistics searher has studied on it and he has observed the registers of title deeds.)

And me... My mother is from Bartýn and my mother's family has Kipchak, Oghuz and Rum origins. I read Kýrzýoðlu's book on Kipchaks. He talks about the kipchak history of Kars and Georgia.

 Whatever I know about other Kipchaks is from webs but webs tell only Kýrým, Memluk Kipchaks and other Kipchaks of Hungary, Lithvania and etc, but there isn't a brief history of Anotolian Kipchaks. My family say that we're Kipchak but they don't know their history.



Posted By: Seko
Date Posted: 12-Oct-2005 at 07:24
Thanks for the information. arfunda! Interesting to here new information on the Kipcaks. 

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Posted By: 
Date Posted: 12-Oct-2005 at 11:27
Originally posted by merced12

sorry kipcaks is turk.you must write source

 



Osprey battle of kalka river

PS i didint say they werent turks i said they had some mongolid feauters.


Posted By: DayI
Date Posted: 12-Oct-2005 at 11:39


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Posted By: Janissary
Date Posted: 20-Oct-2005 at 22:49

Yyyyyyyyyyyep

And In Dede Qorqud folk there are fights between Kipchaks and Oguz in Modern area of Azerbaijan, Georgia, Northern Caucasus adn Turkey



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Posted By: Akskl
Date Posted: 06-Nov-2005 at 20:48
Kipchaks are part of modern Kazakhs now (or Kazaks, Qazaqs - see www.elim.kz   Middle Horde, or Orta Zhuz), as well as some close to Kazaks other Turkic peoples.
Egypt rulers - Kipchak Mamluks - Kutuz and Baybars - defeated the so-called "Mongols" (who were all Turkic-speaking guys) in the famous battle at Ain-Jalut (or Ayn-Jalud), because they knew all the traditional Steppe military methods and tricks, and after that they had a conversation with the captured "Mongol" leader - Ketbuqa (who was a Naiman - also part of modern Kazakhs) - using the same Turkic language.   


Posted By: DayI
Date Posted: 07-Nov-2005 at 11:12
how? Wherent they mongols? Didnt mongol empire never exist then? I heard of subudei whas a Turkic and the whife of Chingiz khan whas also TUrkic but that mongols where a Turkic speaking tribe, never heard of. Can you specify that little bit more please, im interested.

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Posted By: Akskl
Date Posted: 08-Nov-2005 at 21:42

The so-called "Mongols" of Genghis Khan were ALL Turkic-speaking guys. All Western historians first write about some strange so-called "Turko-Mongols" - Kereits, Naimans, Jalairs, Qongyrats, Merkits, Onguts (now Waqs or Uaks), etc.  - who were all Turkic-speaking nomads (and all the Western historians admit that they were Turkic speakers!) living on territories north of the Great Wall of China. And then, "for brevity"   , the Western historians start to call them just "Mongols"!!     

All the above-mentioned tribes are parts of modern Kazaks (Middle Horde - or Orta Juz).  They were Turks in 12-13 centuries and they are Turks now!  All speculations about the so-called "transfer of ethnonyms", assimilation or Turkization of the "Mongols",  is total nonsense.

Click several times on this book and read the Chapter 1, please:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/0631189491/ref=sib_dp_pt/103-9391005-5097445#reader-link - http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/0631189491/ref=sib_dp_pt/103 -9391005-5097445#reader-link

 



Posted By: DayI
Date Posted: 09-Nov-2005 at 07:38
ok, thanks

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Posted By: tadamson
Date Posted: 10-Nov-2005 at 07:13
Originally posted by Akskl

The so-called "Mongols" of Genghis Khan were ALL Turkic-speaking guys.



This is simply not true.
Many of the peoples that joined Temuljin spoke 'turkish' languages, but many others spoke 'mongol' languages, some 'tungistic', some 'iranian' etc..

The Golden Horde fairly rapidly became 'turkish' speaking, but all the other Mongol states remained 'mongol' speakers.


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rgds.

      Tom..


Posted By: DayI
Date Posted: 10-Nov-2005 at 11:12
Originally posted by tadamson



The Golden Horde fairly rapidly became 'turkish' speaking, but all the other Mongol states remained 'mongol' speakers.
this is not true, chagatai khanate whas also a mongol khanate, but even the rulers did speak Turkish. Also for the others.

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Posted By: tadamson
Date Posted: 14-Nov-2005 at 10:20
Originally posted by DayI

Originally posted by tadamson



The Golden Horde fairly rapidly became 'turkish' speaking, but all the other Mongol states remained 'mongol' speakers.
this is not true, chagatai khanate whas also a mongol khanate, but even the rulers did speak Turkish. Also for the others.


Written records are in Mongol and Persian,  not Turkish.  Even Timur had to get Mongol interpreters to talk to Chagatai officials when he adsorbed the state into his empire.


-------------
rgds.

      Tom..


Posted By: Akskl
Date Posted: 25-Nov-2005 at 15:28
Could you please support your statements with any proofs (links, exact citations, refs, etc.)?


Posted By: Nagyfejedelem
Date Posted: 29-Dec-2005 at 10:23

For this topic: Cuman place-names

Hungary: place-names with in Kun

from the 12. century: Cunoz, Cuni

from the 13. century: Kun, Cun, Cunus

from the 14. century: Kuun, Kuni, Kétkunfalu, Kwnfalw, Kunfalu

from the 15. century: Kunlehotaya, Kwned, Kwnfalva, Kunagatha

from the 16. century: Kún, Kun

place-names with in Kuman: Kumanpataka, Komanzeg, Comanfalua, Kományfalva, Komnafalva

Roumania: Comanul, Comana, Comanca, Comanita, Comani, Comaneasca,  Comanesti, Comaneanca, Comanac, Comanda resti

a place-name with in Kun is only one: Cunesti

Bulgaria : Kumanite, Kumanovci, Kumanica, Kumanova-Cuka, Kuman, Kumanov, Kumanidis

Macedonia: Kumanovo, Kumancevo, Kumanci, Kuman



Posted By: Death
Date Posted: 12-Apr-2006 at 16:37
Kumans or Kun as known in Magyar(Hungarian) language, are one of the tribes that joined the Hungarian kingdom.They were speaking a language "similar" to Turkish-the reaserch sais. I dont think we can say anythink for certain about anything, guess what , there were no fono records of these people speaking. Oh and one more thing,these informations are not verificable cause this IS the internet.We can talk about it but thats about it.




Posted By: Raider
Date Posted: 14-Apr-2006 at 03:10

The so-called Cuman paternoster:

Bezen attamaz kenze kikte
szen lészen szen adon
dösön szen küklön
nitziengen gerde ali kikte
bezen akomezne oknemezne
bergezge pitbütör küngön
ill bezen menemezne
neszen bezde jermez berge utrogergene
illme bezne algyamanna
kutkor bezne algyamanna
szen börsön boka csalli
batson igye tengria. Ámen.



Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 14-Apr-2006 at 05:38

I'm Kipchak/Cuman.

I'm warrior.

 



Posted By: Feramez
Date Posted: 14-Apr-2006 at 13:24
I haven't followoed this topic so I'm not sure, which group of the Kipcak branch do the Cuman belong to?

-------------
For Turks, the homeland isn't Turkey, nor yet Turkistan. Their country is a vast, eternal land: Turan!
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Posted By: Feramez
Date Posted: 14-Apr-2006 at 13:25
Originally posted by Raider

The so-called Cuman paternoster:

Bezen attamaz kenze kikte
szen lészen szen adon
dösön szen küklön
nitziengen gerde ali kikte
bezen akomezne oknemezne
bergezge pitbütör küngön
ill bezen menemezne
neszen bezde jermez berge utrogergene
illme bezne algyamanna
kutkor bezne algyamanna
szen börsön boka csalli
batson igye tengria. Ámen.

This text is in the Cuman language?



-------------
For Turks, the homeland isn't Turkey, nor yet Turkistan. Their country is a vast, eternal land: Turan!
-Ziya Gokalp-
http://groups.myspace.com/TurkWorld - TÜRK DÜNYASI Forum, join today.


Posted By: Raider
Date Posted: 19-Apr-2006 at 06:26
Originally posted by Feramez

Originally posted by Raider

The so-called Cuman paternoster:

Bezen attamaz kenze kikte
szen lészen szen adon
dösön szen küklön
nitziengen gerde ali kikte
bezen akomezne oknemezne
bergezge pitbütör küngön
ill bezen menemezne
neszen bezde jermez berge utrogergene
illme bezne algyamanna
kutkor bezne algyamanna
szen börsön boka csalli
batson igye tengria. Ámen.

This text is in the Cuman language?

Yes, it is generally considered a Cuman translation of the protestant Lord's prayer. Although its exact origin is unknown.


Posted By: oghuzkb
Date Posted: 19-Apr-2006 at 07:21
Originally posted by Raider

Originally posted by Feramez

Originally posted by Raider

The so-called Cuman paternoster:

Bezen attamaz kenze kikte
szen lészen szen adon
dösön szen küklön
nitziengen gerde ali kikte
bezen akomezne oknemezne
bergezge pitbütör küngön
ill bezen menemezne
neszen bezde jermez berge utrogergene
illme bezne algyamanna
kutkor bezne algyamanna
szen börsön boka csalli
batson igye tengria. Ámen.

This text is in the Cuman language?

Yes, it is generally considered a Cuman translation of the protestant Lord's prayer. Although its exact origin is unknown.

Be honest ,I barely understand its meaning,is this close to modern Hungarian language?



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ALLAH gave us two books---Quran and Nature.        ---Jamaliddin Efghany


Posted By: Raider
Date Posted: 19-Apr-2006 at 08:49
Originally posted by oghuzkb

Originally posted by Raider

Originally posted by Feramez

Originally posted by Raider

The so-called Cuman paternoster:

Bezen attamaz kenze kikte
szen lészen szen adon
dösön szen küklön
nitziengen gerde ali kikte
bezen akomezne oknemezne
bergezge pitbütör küngön
ill bezen menemezne
neszen bezde jermez berge utrogergene
illme bezne algyamanna
kutkor bezne algyamanna
szen börsön boka csalli
batson igye tengria. Ámen.

This text is in the Cuman language?

Yes, it is generally considered a Cuman translation of the protestant Lord's prayer. Although its exact origin is unknown.

Be honest ,I barely understand its meaning,is this close to modern Hungarian language?

Absolutely not, I can understand only the "Amen" in the end.


Posted By: Feramez
Date Posted: 19-Apr-2006 at 13:00
Yea it does look more like a Slavic language.  Can someone tell me who the Cuman were?  Which Turk group were they?  Which branch they belonged to?  Thanks.

-------------
For Turks, the homeland isn't Turkey, nor yet Turkistan. Their country is a vast, eternal land: Turan!
-Ziya Gokalp-
http://groups.myspace.com/TurkWorld - TÜRK DÜNYASI Forum, join today.


Posted By: Raider
Date Posted: 20-Apr-2006 at 09:40
Originally posted by Feramez

Yea it does look more like a Slavic language.  Can someone tell me who the Cuman were?  Which Turk group were they?  Which branch they belonged to?  Thanks.
The Cumans were kipchak turks, the above text is in some kipchak-tartar language.


Posted By: Feramez
Date Posted: 20-Apr-2006 at 19:52
How do you spell 'Cuman' in Turkish?

-------------
For Turks, the homeland isn't Turkey, nor yet Turkistan. Their country is a vast, eternal land: Turan!
-Ziya Gokalp-
http://groups.myspace.com/TurkWorld - TÜRK DÜNYASI Forum, join today.


Posted By: Seljuk
Date Posted: 21-Apr-2006 at 19:10

Originally posted by Feramez

How do you spell 'Cuman' in Turkish?

It sould be Kuman or Kýpçak. Their language was one of three of the main accents of Turkic languaces (apart from yakut and chuvas):

Karluk, Oghuz, Kypchak

Kypchak language(Northwestern Turkish) consist of following accents:

(from wiki)



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Posted By: Seljuk
Date Posted: 21-Apr-2006 at 19:24
Originally posted by Feramez

Originally posted by Raider

The so-called Cuman paternoster:

Bezen attamaz kenze kikte
szen lészen szen adon
dösön szen küklön
nitziengen gerde ali kikte
bezen akomezne oknemezne
bergezge pitbütör küngön
ill bezen menemezne
neszen bezde jermez berge utrogergene
illme bezne algyamanna
kutkor bezne algyamanna
szen börsön boka csalli
batson igye tengria. Ámen.

This text is in the Cuman language?

It surely is at least i can understand tengri

But i wonder in which alphabet it is written in and were they converted to christianity(mentioning of amen?)?



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Posted By: Feramez
Date Posted: 21-Apr-2006 at 19:54
Originally posted by Seljuk

Originally posted by Feramez

How do you spell 'Cuman' in Turkish?

It sould be Kuman or Kýpçak. Their language was one of three of the main accents of Turkic languaces (apart from yakut and chuvas):

Karluk, Oghuz, Kypchak

Kypchak language(Northwestern Turkish) consist of following accents:

(from wiki)

I know what Kipchak is and how to spell it.  How do you spell 'Cuman' in Turkish?



-------------
For Turks, the homeland isn't Turkey, nor yet Turkistan. Their country is a vast, eternal land: Turan!
-Ziya Gokalp-
http://groups.myspace.com/TurkWorld - TÜRK DÜNYASI Forum, join today.


Posted By: Death
Date Posted: 21-Apr-2006 at 20:11
Why they converted?
this is my opinion and it considers religion-Religion isnt the most inportant thing in an individuals life.I beleve that is is more a trend then a constant thing.Why did anyone acept some other religion?
You have to ask yourself would you change your religion for some reasons,then ask what are those reasons and you will see.
Religion could sometimes be explaned as mass histeria.
Look at Americans,they are a most individual sociey(do those two things go together-yes they do,read Hobs or Lock-both explane it) and they(Americans) are most persuasiv to these mass histerias.That is why they have a lot of all kinds of churches,sekts and other...
Dont forget that just a few decades ago(1950-1970) religion didnt play a mayor part in a life of one people or even in the whole civilization.Then there was only proleter(worker-USSR) and on the other side the capitalist or/and citizen(USA) so that says that not religion but ideology is inportant(more inportant) in one state or society or one nation.
To shorten my thread-I know that i would change my religion for a number of reasons,i  muself question the position of religion a lot.I speak for myself and i think i would change my religion and become a Muslim or Jew or Budist just out of curiosity(hehe).God likes that,and loves curious people.(Oh man i cant beleve it-im a monotheist,i will have to think about that fast-bye bye)
The alphabet i dont know but it looks almost like hungarian,the ö,ü

botson igye tengeria,amen- from what little i know hungarian i would say that this last thing means forgive.Bocsanat-forgiveness-bocsánat(hun.)
You will have to ask Hungarians that speak better hungarian then me to translate.
I hope to have been of some asistance altho i didnt write facts,but my opinion.


Posted By: Raider
Date Posted: 24-Apr-2006 at 03:29
Originally posted by Seljuk

Originally posted by Feramez

Originally posted by Raider

The so-called Cuman paternoster:

Bezen attamaz kenze kikte
szen lészen szen adon
dösön szen küklön
nitziengen gerde ali kikte
bezen akomezne oknemezne
bergezge pitbütör küngön
ill bezen menemezne
neszen bezde jermez berge utrogergene
illme bezne algyamanna
kutkor bezne algyamanna
szen börsön boka csalli
batson igye tengria. Ámen.

This text is in the Cuman language?

It surely is at least i can understand tengri

But i wonder in which alphabet it is written in and were they converted to christianity(mentioning of amen?)?

It was written in Latin alphabet. The text was minuted in the beginning of the XVIII. century. By this time the Hungarian Cumans were converted to Christianity.


Posted By: Death
Date Posted: 14-May-2006 at 22:37
And all this time i was thinking that the Kun were the 3 Kazar tribes that joined Magyars and Arpad.Now i see my mistake,......i made an error i apologize.
They were (maybe) Turkish speaking,lol,hahaha, right where i started.
Can we call them Magyar?,no i dont think so.Were they Hungarian?,i beleve so.Lets answer the question of race.Are Turks yellow(ish)?If they are then the Kun may be Turk.
I do know a place near me that is supose to be a Kun settelmant.Its in Vojvodina(Serbia,north province,near a city kikinda,the wilage is now called Sajan....early as 13XX,i dont know,and then it was called Saj-han,so if someone wants to do reaserch ....Very beautiful,all Magyar vilage now but i guess that 700 years is a long time.
That reminds me of one more place in Serbia near Nis,on the south that is called Vladicin Han so maybe there is a similarity. That Han thing sounds oriental,lol.
Maybe now i was usefull?!?



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