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Were Spartans Jewish? !!!

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Topic: Were Spartans Jewish? !!!
Posted By: Yiannis
Subject: Were Spartans Jewish? !!!
Date Posted: 18-Jul-2005 at 07:46

I was reading Jewish history, on the Macabees, when I stumbled on this:

Both books of Maccabees link the Spartans with the Jews. I Maccabees 12 tells of Jonathan sending a letter to the Lacedemonians (Spartan Greeks) asking for their help, since they were brethren. The Spartans replied, "It is found in writing, that the Lacedemonians and Jews are brethren and that they are of the stock of Abraham" (verse 21). It is assumed by some writers that this means the Spartans were Israelites, but the Spartans were not Israelites they were Edomites descended from Bela son of Beor and brother of Baalim, and king of Edom (Genesis 36:32; I Chronicles 1:43). Edom was the son of Isaac and grandson of Abraham who sold his birthright, and bred his posterity off the Book of Life.

www.biblebelievers.org.au/bb980306.htm

Also:

in 1 Macc

12:19-23 the high priest Jonathan quotes an interesting letter sent by Areios, a former king of the Spartans, to Onias, who was the high priest of Jerusalem for some time before the Maccabaean crisis (167-164 BC) :

It has been discovered in records regarding the Spartans and Jews that they are brothers, and of the race of Abraham Our own message to you is this :

your flocks and your possessions are ours, and ours are yours, and we are instructing our envoys to give you a message to this effect.

Besides a chronological problem about king Areios, it is difficult to imagine a statement by Greeks claiming they are brothers of Barbarians. So this is most probably a Jewish diplomatic fiction. Its background is twofold : first, the Spartan connection may refer to Onias origin, as we learn through his brother Jason, who was compelled to flee and traveled to Sparta, hoping that, for kinships sake, he might find harbor there (2 Macc 5:9). Second, sharing flocks with Spartans from Greece may look out of place, but it suffices to consider a Spartan colony in Egypt, from the time of Alexander or later : the very name Onias recalls On, the Egyptian name of the sun (and sun worship, see Exod 1:11 LXX), and it is stated in1 Macc 12:9 that this high priest, appointed in Jerusalem by the Seleucid king, did not have the sacred books. Now if we focus on Egypt, the problem of the flocks makes sense for nomads in the desert (Negeb, Sinai). This way we get closer to the narrative of Gen 13:6-7, when Abraham and Lot, coming back from Egypt, had too many possessions to live together ; dispute broke out between the herdsmen of Abraham and those of Lot. So there was a real problem of flocks. In any case, the content of the letter cannot have been extracted from Genesis as it stands, but there may have been some common origin.

http://josephus.yorku.ca/pdf/nodet2000.pdf - http://josephus.yorku.ca/pdf/nodet2000.pdf

 

Of course, it's nonsense and fabrications, but still make an interesting read!



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The basis of a democratic state is liberty. Aristotle, Politics

Those that can give up essential liberty to obtain a temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. Benjamin Franklin



Replies:
Posted By: Phallanx
Date Posted: 18-Jul-2005 at 16:30
Oh, my man, Flavius Josephus.
I'd suggest you read his "Against Apion" for a good laugh.

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To the gods we mortals are all ignorant.Those old traditions from our ancestors, the ones we've had as long as time itself, no argument will ever overthrow, in spite of subtleties sharp minds invent.


Posted By: Menippos
Date Posted: 18-Jul-2005 at 20:22
What else will my poor eyes see....

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CARRY NOTHING


Posted By: HulaguHan
Date Posted: 18-Jul-2005 at 20:27

I heard some Jewish nationalist maniacs claimed Khazar Turks to be from  Jewish nation too.

Ignore the troll....



Posted By: philiptheuniter
Date Posted: 18-Jul-2005 at 22:15

Hahahahahahahahahahahaha!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



Posted By: Belisarius
Date Posted: 19-Jul-2005 at 00:08
Wow... that is certainly... wow...

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Posted By: GENERAL PARMENION
Date Posted: 19-Jul-2005 at 05:21

Totaly absurd !

 



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"There is no doubt, that Macedonians were Greeks."
(Robin Lane Fox "Historian-Author" In Interview with newspaper TO BHMA)



Posted By: Menippos
Date Posted: 19-Jul-2005 at 05:39
Not absurd - just hilarious 

That's why people in Mani say "Lekhaim" when they toast


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CARRY NOTHING


Posted By: Perseas
Date Posted: 19-Jul-2005 at 05:55
The hilarious is that actually there are people believing it.

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A mathematician is a person who thinks that if there are supposed to be three people in a room, but five come out, then two more must enter the room in order for it to be empty.


Posted By: Menippos
Date Posted: 19-Jul-2005 at 06:13
Let them believe what they want - as long as they don't say that we are an annex-to-be for FYROM...

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CARRY NOTHING


Posted By: Morgoth
Date Posted: 19-Jul-2005 at 07:43

The hilarious is that actually there are people believing it.

Not hilarious at all, its actually quite scary. People will believe all kind of crazy idiocy.



Posted By: Yiannis
Date Posted: 19-Jul-2005 at 07:49

That happens when one examines ancient sounces only by their context,  not taking into account the social/political environment in which they were written in.

For example, I remember a fascist Greek, taking into account a phrace of a Jewish writer who saying something in the lines of "these hated Greeks, we should kill them etc...". That taken out of proportion can be used to show that "Jews hate Greeks", but considering that this was written at a time when the process of the Hellenisation of Judea was in full swing, with Greek colonists arriving all the time and Hellenized Jews worshiping Zeus in the Temple of Solomon, one gets another picture. That the writter was a faithfull & patriotic Jew who resists the conquerors of his country.

I think that this part in in the Old testament, Macabees or something like it...



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The basis of a democratic state is liberty. Aristotle, Politics

Those that can give up essential liberty to obtain a temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. Benjamin Franklin


Posted By: Menippos
Date Posted: 19-Jul-2005 at 07:49
People lust for myths and legends, even if these are most unbelievable. Don't forget - we begin our lives listening to fairy-tales and we end it by telling them ourselves.

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CARRY NOTHING


Posted By: Phallanx
Date Posted: 19-Jul-2005 at 10:52
 Yianni,

Xtupas ekei pou ponaei, re

Well actually if we look into this issue strictly on historic accounts/texts, there are many references in all Hebrew text of 'degrading' (allow the term) remarks towards the Hellines.
The Maccabees you've been reading, their Chanukah (festival of light) the Talmud, the Old Testament all do mention the Hellines/Gentiles.

If we take a better look at Flavius Josephus, I wouldn't call him a faithfull nor a patriotic Jew. If you do look into his life you'll find that his people titled him traitor. Since he actually abandoned the Jews and sided with the Romans (thus the name Flavius). It is for this reason that many consider his work as 'propaganda' in order to restore his name.

The quote you mention is probably from O.Testament, Zecharaiah 9:13, but I think that it was written earlier than the Hellinistic era.


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To the gods we mortals are all ignorant.Those old traditions from our ancestors, the ones we've had as long as time itself, no argument will ever overthrow, in spite of subtleties sharp minds invent.


Posted By: Yiannis
Date Posted: 19-Jul-2005 at 11:11

I'm actually now in Tel-Aviv and I was discussing with a friend, on the influence of Hellenism of Jewish culture. Apparently there's much!

People tend to degrade their neigbors in general, us Greeks are a prime example: "all those not Greeks are Barbarians"



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The basis of a democratic state is liberty. Aristotle, Politics

Those that can give up essential liberty to obtain a temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. Benjamin Franklin


Posted By: Phallanx
Date Posted: 19-Jul-2005 at 11:25
While I will agree that it is a common act for people to degrade their neigbors. "PAS MH ELLHN BARBAROS" is quite different.
It wasn't that much of a degratory 'term' but a clear distinction between the Hellines and those of a lower state of intellect.

Have a great time down there.


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To the gods we mortals are all ignorant.Those old traditions from our ancestors, the ones we've had as long as time itself, no argument will ever overthrow, in spite of subtleties sharp minds invent.


Posted By: Komnenos
Date Posted: 19-Jul-2005 at 11:41
Originally posted by Phallanx


It wasn't that much of a degratory 'term' but a clear distinction between the Hellines and those of a lower state of intellect.


As I want to avoid to give the impression that I persecute the author of this sentence, would somebody else please comment on the above remark!

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[IMG]http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i137/komnenos/crosses1.jpg">


Posted By: Phallanx
Date Posted: 19-Jul-2005 at 12:06
Komnenos

Barbaros:
  • one whose speech is rude, rough and harsh
  • one who speaks a foreign or strange language which is not understood by another
  • used by the Greeks of any foreigner ignorant of the Greek language, whether mental or moral, with the added notion after the Persian war, of rudeness and brutality. The word is used in the N.T. without the idea of reproachfulness.

  • http://www.searchgodsword.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=915
    -----------------

    This article contends that the meaning of "barbarian" as used in contemporary English language to denote uncivilized or savage, is not a true representation of the original meaning as used by Herodotus some 2400 years ago. How? Answer to this conundrum lies in the fact that origin of the English word Barbarian is from word pronounced barbaros or  barbarous. In Greek language, this word simply means a foreigner someone non-Greek. Even in todays written Greek, this word is used to describe non-Greek people as they are related to their land or culture but alien from the land of Greece.

    Argument
    It would be unreasonable to believe that a historian of Herodotus' stature could be ignorant or would disregard his own knowledge of Persian achievements, and refer to Persians as savages and uncivilized in his use of the word "barbarian"..

    http://216.239.59.104/search?q=cache:R_pwnsV8RR0J:www.iran ch amber.com/podium/history/030506_persians_just_non_greek. pdf+ barbaros+greek&hl=el&client=firefox-a
    --------------------

    Or what better than to see what they actually believed.


    "And so far has our city distanced the rest of mankind in thought and in speech that her pupils have become the teachers of the rest of the world; and she has brought it about that the name Hellenes suggests no longer a race but an intelligence, and that the title Hellenes is applied to those who share our culture OR to those who share a common blood.
    (Isocrates Panegyrikos 50)


    There is no form of persecution. As long as there are no facsist/racist  remarks, I'd be more than happy to discuss anything with you.


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    To the gods we mortals are all ignorant.Those old traditions from our ancestors, the ones we've had as long as time itself, no argument will ever overthrow, in spite of subtleties sharp minds invent.


    Posted By: Yiannis
    Date Posted: 19-Jul-2005 at 12:11

    I'll have to actually agree with Phallanx here .

    In the begining, the term barbarian was not an insult. It was meant to indicate a non-Greek in speach. It became a derogatory term during Hellenistic and especially Roman times.



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    The basis of a democratic state is liberty. Aristotle, Politics

    Those that can give up essential liberty to obtain a temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. Benjamin Franklin


    Posted By: Phallanx
    Date Posted: 19-Jul-2005 at 12:15
    Well , Yiannis

    According to Suda online (written in the Byzantine period)

    Barbarians

    Translation:
    Meaning those men who are dumb or deaf and who do not know their speech. http://www.stoa.org/finder/showlinks?kws=Aristophanes - Aristophanes in Birds [writes]: "for I myself stayed with them for a long time and taught them speech, although they were barbarians before." The hoopoe says [this] about the birds.[1]
    Greek Original:
    Barbarous: anti tou aphônous ê anêkoous anthrôpôn kai mê eidotas autôn tên phônên. Aristophanês Ornisin: egô gar autous barbarous ontas protou, edidaxa tên phônên sunôn polun chronon. peri tôn orneôn legei ho epops.

    http://www.stoa.org/sol-bin//search.pl?search_method=QUERY &login=&enlogin=&searchstr=beta,105&field=ad lerhw_gr&db=REAL


    It seems like the change into a degratory term must have happened later.



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    To the gods we mortals are all ignorant.Those old traditions from our ancestors, the ones we've had as long as time itself, no argument will ever overthrow, in spite of subtleties sharp minds invent.


    Posted By: Winterhaze13
    Date Posted: 19-Jul-2005 at 12:51
    l I've heard one or two things in my day, but this tops the list.

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    Indeed, history is nothing more than a tableau of crimes and misfortunes.

    -- Voltaire
    French author, humanist, rationalist, & satirist (1694 - 1778)


    Posted By: hugoestr
    Date Posted: 19-Jul-2005 at 12:55
    Originally posted by Komnenos

    Originally posted by Phallanx


    It wasn't that much of a degratory 'term' but a clear distinction between the Hellines and those of a lower state of intellect.


    As I want to avoid to give the impression that I persecute the author of this sentence, would somebody else please comment on the above remark!


    With pleasure, Komnenos.

    Saying that someone has a "lower intellect" is an insult. Barbaros is well known as meaning "foreigner" too.

    The author of the sentence made an obvious--although I suspect he believed it was subtle--attempt for claiming racial superiority of the "Hellines" over the barbaros, foreigners, people with low intellect.

    This statement is inflamatory and with strong tints of racism. I would recommend the author to drop the subject, edit the post, and move on. We will all pretend this never happened.


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    Posted By: Decebal
    Date Posted: 19-Jul-2005 at 12:59
    Originally posted by HulaguHan

    I heard some Jewish nationalist maniacs claimed Khazar Turks to be from  Jewish nation too.

    Ignore the troll....

    Well, in one way they were: while they were indubitably Turk by ethnicity, they were the only people to wholly convert to Judaism. So they were jewish in religion if not nationality.

    As for this whole notion of jews being related to Spartans, it is not as ridiculous as it first sounds. I remember reading somewhere that there was a tribe of Jews who emigrated to Arcadia sometime around 900-700BC. It is possible that the Jews may have mixed with the local Greek population. While that does not make the Spartans jewish, it still provides a link. 



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    What is history but a fable agreed upon?
    Napoleon Bonaparte

    Even if you are a minority of one, the truth is the truth.- Mohandas Gandhi



    Posted By: Yiannis
    Date Posted: 19-Jul-2005 at 14:04
    Originally posted by Decebal

    [QUOTE=HulaguHan]

    I heard some As for this whole notion of jews being related to Spartans, it is not as ridiculous as it first sounds. I remember reading somewhere that there was a tribe of Jews who emigrated to Arcadia sometime around 900-700BC. It is possible that the Jews may have mixed with the local Greek population. While that does not make the Spartans jewish, it still provides a link. 

    Jews moving to Arcadia is a myth, mentioned in the same story I posted before and used as justification to ask for Spartan help!!!

    Come on, you fell for it as well

     



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    The basis of a democratic state is liberty. Aristotle, Politics

    Those that can give up essential liberty to obtain a temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. Benjamin Franklin


    Posted By: Phallanx
    Date Posted: 19-Jul-2005 at 14:08
    Originally posted by hugoestr


    With pleasure, Komnenos.

    Saying that someone has a "lower intellect" is an insult. Barbaros is well known as meaning "foreigner" too.

    The author of the sentence made an obvious--although I suspect he believed it was subtle--attempt for claiming racial superiority of the "Hellines" over the barbaros, foreigners, people with low intellect.

    This statement is inflamatory and with strong tints of racism. I would recommend the author to drop the subject, edit the post, and move on. We will all pretend this never happened.



    First of all the 'author' you both speak of has a name, screen name true but that is the proper way to address him.

    Second, I have made NO claim of superiority, so please leave your prejudice out of this. We were talking about what the ancient Hellines believed.
    I provided a quote of Isocrates clearly saying that they believed: "the name Hellenes suggests no longer a race but an intelligence"

    Since the 'term' Hellinas was used to describe intelligence, obviously those that did not bring this name were of lower state of intelligence.

    Go ask Isocrates to rephrase if you feel offended, not me for quoting him.


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    To the gods we mortals are all ignorant.Those old traditions from our ancestors, the ones we've had as long as time itself, no argument will ever overthrow, in spite of subtleties sharp minds invent.


    Posted By: Perseas
    Date Posted: 19-Jul-2005 at 14:59

    The term "Barbarian" was used not only in ethnological sense (Non-Greeks) but also in a disparaging cultural meaning. Thus it was being used also for a few greek tribes who were believed to have an inferior culture compared with the general national Greek civilization and were characterised as uncivilized. 

    This way of thinking is clear in Isocrates "... the name 'Hellenes' suggests no longer the people but an intelligence, and that the title 'Hellenes' is applied rather to those who share our [note: Athenians] culture than to those who share a common blood".



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    A mathematician is a person who thinks that if there are supposed to be three people in a room, but five come out, then two more must enter the room in order for it to be empty.


    Posted By: hugoestr
    Date Posted: 19-Jul-2005 at 17:42
    Phallanx,

    My reading is valid. If you had properly qualified your points to begin with, we wouldn't be having this discussion.

    P.S. I actually agree with most of your arguments about the Spartans not being Jewish.

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    Posted By: Menippos
    Date Posted: 19-Jul-2005 at 18:34
    If we had not taken the word "barbarian" out of its context, none of this misunderstanding would have happened.
    Starting from my fellow Greeks here. When we refer to other peoples' intellect, we have to remember that the greek word for what we want to say does not correspond to the english meaning of the word "intellect", even though many of the dictionaries fail to point out the difference. Even worse when we use the term "intelligence".
    The correct phrasing should be roughly: "What the ancient Greeks considered as strange sounds and totally alien cultural orientation".

    Moving on to intervening members. Guys, always remember that the fact that someone joined this forum and has been attentive and active means that he/she values the forum and, as a consequence, its members, or vice versa. If we all try and be direct and immediate, we will achieve closeness and familiarisation such, that occasional trips of the tongue or language or indeed behaviour can be tolerated and forgiven. And it is imperative that there is familiarisation amongst the acive members, because then and only then we will be able to understand why they say what they say and what they really mean when they speak.


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    CARRY NOTHING


    Posted By: Komnenos
    Date Posted: 19-Jul-2005 at 19:32
    Well, I had a word with Isocrates and he did point out that the Greek word "dianoia" might indeed have been misrepresented in the English translation.
    Although the term can indeed mean "intelligence", it can also translate into "thought, notion,process of thinking, understanding, etc." He further pointed out that there is a different translation of the whole paragraph available, which makes his assumptions possibly better understood:"... so that the name of the Hellenes may be a symbol no longer of race, but of spiritual ascent, and that Hellenes be named those who assume our education; not those who are of the same descent."
    To speak of "Barbarians" as of people of lower intellect or intelligence as in mental capabilities, so Isocrates, would be a obvious misrepresentation of his words, as of course even Barbarians could assume, and indeed have assumed, Hellenic education and thus aspire to the same heights of culture. He expressed his wish not to be misquoted in such way in future.
    He then added, that he would warmly embrace as fellow "Hellenes" in spirit all members of AE, be they from China, Germany, Turkey or Macedonia, who by their dedication to the study of history have shown that they have reached the zenith of such spiritual ascent.


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    Posted By: Menippos
    Date Posted: 19-Jul-2005 at 19:52
    Oper Edei Deiksai (QED=quod erat demonstrandum).

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    CARRY NOTHING


    Posted By: Phallanx
    Date Posted: 19-Jul-2005 at 20:46
    o that the name of the Hellenes may be a symbol no longer of race, but of spiritual ascent, and that Hellenes be named those who assume our education; not those who are of the same descent."



    The exact text is:

    ,

    In Latin font just in case:

    "kai to twn Hellhnwn onoma pepoihke mhketi tou genous alla ths dianoias dokein einai, kai mallon Hellhnas kaleisthai tous ths paideusews ths hemeteras h tous ths koinhs phusews metechontas."

    First off, what you present is a distortion of the speech, he NEVER said " not those"   the H (hetta) clearly means or.

    Now, while it is correct that "dianoia" may mean all mentioned above, the "keyword" here is "paideusews". That derives from "paideuw" that means "bring up, train/teach"

    intellect =  the part of the mind that can think; reason and understand

    Intelligence = a general mental capability that involves the ability to reason, plan, solve problems, think abstractly, comprehend ideas and language, and learn.

    So how do you obtain intelligence, but clearly through education which is why he mentions "paideusews".

    Sorry but I see nothing wrong, at least not with my translation. There was absolutely no reason to consider anything written insulting.

    To speak of "Barbarians" as of people of lower intellect or intelligence as in mental capabilities, so Isocrates, would be a obvious misrepresentation of his words

    The only misinterpretation of Isocrates' words is unfortunately done by you in the following part of your post.

    Honestly, have you actually ever read the speach???

    If so where does he give the slightest idea that he accepts everyone???

    If you had or will eventually read it, please do explain why on earth would he write the following when he's open to accepting anyone as you state???

    If he was attempting to claim something like this, why would he previously say :

    "for we did not become dwellers in this land by driving others out of it, nor by finding it uninhabited, nor by coming together here a motley horde composed of many races; but we are of a lineage so noble and so pure that throughout our history we have continued in possession of the very land which gave us birth, since we are sprung from its very soil and are able to address our city by the very names which we apply to our nearest kin."
    ( Panegyrikos 24)
    --------------

    Why speak of noble and pure lineage if he was to accept anyone as a Helline just a couple of lines down only based on intelect and culture???


    "I have come before you to give my counsels on the war against the barbarians and on concord among ourselves."
    (Panegyrikos 3)
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    "For we have reason to reproach the Lacedaemonians for this also, that in the interest of their own city they compel their neighbors to live in serfdom, but for the common advantage of their allies they refuse to bring about a similar condition, although it lies in their power to make up their quarrel with us and reduce all the barbarians to a state of subjection to the whole of Hellas."
    ----------------

    "Of my own countrymen also I have a similar tale to tell. For towards all other peoples with whom they have been at war, they forget their past enmities the moment they have concluded peace, but toward the Asiatics they feel no gratitude even when they receive favors from them; so eternal is the wrath which they cherish against the barbarians .Our fathers, again, condemned many to death for the crime of Medism, and in their public assemblies even at the present day, before transacting any other business, they invoke curses on any citizen who proposes to send an embassy to negotiate peace with the Persians; and the Eumolpidae and the Ceryces, in the celebration of the mysteries, on account of their hatred of the Persians warn all other barbarians, as if they were murderers, to keep away from the sacred rites."
    (Panegyrikos 157)
    ------------------

    "So ingrained in our nature is our hostility to them that even in the matter of our stories we linger most fondly over those which tell of the Trojan and the Persian wars, because through them we learn of our enemies' misfortunes; and you will find that our warfare against the barbarians has inspired our hymns, while that against the Hellenes has brought forth our dirges; and that the former are sung at our festivals, while we recall the latter on occasions of sorrow."
    ------------

    To close this, I quote the renowned German historian Ulrich Wilcken:

    "Isocrates by saying this does not include in to the Hellinic race the Hellinized barbarians, because for him the barbarians and especially the Persians, continued to be the natural enemies of Hellas.
    What Isocrates means is that he considers the real Hellines to be only those that have the Attik culture."
    Ulrich Wilcken "Ancient Greek History"





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    To the gods we mortals are all ignorant.Those old traditions from our ancestors, the ones we've had as long as time itself, no argument will ever overthrow, in spite of subtleties sharp minds invent.


    Posted By: Menippos
    Date Posted: 20-Jul-2005 at 06:14
    Well, I have to disagree here.
    First of all, the word "dianoia" is something totelly different than intellect or intelligence. It means thinking.
    Etymology: dia-noia <- roots: "dia", "nous"
    "dia"=through (in this context)
    "nous"=mind
    It means: what goes through mind.

    Secondly, the meaning of the whole paragraph can be interpreted in more than one ways, and Isocrates was smart to have made it so. It is an ambiguous political speech, and it can be used for either befriending the barbarians or alienating them.


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    CARRY NOTHING


    Posted By: Yiannis
    Date Posted: 20-Jul-2005 at 06:18
    IXIS AFIXIS OUK EN POLEMO THNISKEIS (remember, no commas!)

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    The basis of a democratic state is liberty. Aristotle, Politics

    Those that can give up essential liberty to obtain a temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. Benjamin Franklin


    Posted By: Menippos
    Date Posted: 20-Jul-2005 at 06:34
    And the other one:
    "Nipson anomimata mi monan opsin"
    des:
    "Nipson anomimata, mi monan opsin"
    "Nipson anomimata mi, monan opsin"


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    CARRY NOTHING


    Posted By: Murtaza
    Date Posted: 20-Jul-2005 at 07:11

    I think jews should claim all eastern greeks,not only spartans.

    At  least with this way, they will  take Turkish revenge



    Posted By: Komnenos
    Date Posted: 20-Jul-2005 at 07:34

    If so where does he give the slightest idea that he accepts everyone???

    If you had or will eventually read it, please do explain why on earth would he write the following when he's open to accepting anyone as you state???


    Well, it was a try to smuggle us all into the circle of the chosen few, I had hoped nobody would notice.
    I think the rest of the world has survived quite well as Barbarians, and as a teacher I know, there no peolpe of lower intelligence, just slow starters, or lowly motivated, or underachieving or alternatively gifted, and that's probably the same with nations.
    I think history has proven that early achievements not nessacarily guarantee great success in later stages of development, and that the uncouth Barbarians of today are high flyers of tomorrow.


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    Posted By: Spartakus
    Date Posted: 21-Jul-2005 at 09:31
    Originally posted by Yiannis

    I'm actually now in Tel-Aviv and I was discussing with a friend, on the influence of Hellenism of Jewish culture. Apparently there's much!

    People tend to degrade their neigbors in general, us Greeks are a prime example: "all those not Greeks are Barbarians"

    HEBREW is GREEK

       THE WORK OF JOSEPH YAHUDA

    A book that "mysteriously disappeared" soon after its publication*

    In 1982, a suppressed, ages-old, historical truth,  was resurrected through the publication of a book by Becket Publications of Oxford, England (ISBN O 7289 0013 O). The book, published in English, and titled Hebrew is Greek, was written by lawyer, linguist and researcher, Joseph Yahuda, the son of Isaac Benjamin  Ezekiel Yahuda, an ethnic Jew and longtime researcher and linguist. Though Jewish both by nationality and religion, J. Yahuda could be considered a Greek-- according to Isocrates' definition of a Hellene [see definition below. ed.], since his decades-long, unbiased, and meticulously thorough search reveals the linguistic relationship of numerous groups of words in Hebrew, Greek and Arabic. Work that was published without fear or hesitation by a scholar whose only concern was for the discovery of the truth.

    Following the book's publication, and while only a limited number of copies circulated for a few fortunate individuals, the book disappeared from the face of the earth. It was as if an invisible hand intervened and blocked its circulation. It cannot be found at any public library, it is not sold at any bookstore on earth, not even in a curiosity or antique shop. [Rare book dealers, in the U.S. and the U.K., have told TGR that there have been inquiries after the book, but that they have been unable to locate a copy anywhere. ed.] The only information available about the book throughout the world is its title. No book reviews on this book were ever published, neither positive nor negative, moderate or offensive. Nor, it seems, has there been any other evaluation of the work. One must eventually come to the inescapable conclusion that every one of the copies originally published was somehow withdrawn through some sort of a secret operation with a global reach.

    Concerns posed by another Jewish intellectual who wrote the preface of the book.

    The research published in the book covers 718 pages. The introduction was written by Jewish professor Saul Levin, though no enthusiasm on his part was evident in his introduction. He admits that following the 1977 publication of his book entitled, The Indo-European and Semitic Languages, J. Yahuda got in touch with him, and they maintained a fruitful relationship through correspondence, though they never actually met in person. The reason for the interest in J. Yahuda expressed by S. Levin, as he himself confessed, was the publication of several writings by J. Yahuda, such as the La Palestine Revisite, written in 1928, Law and Life According to Hebrew Thought (1932) and This Democracy (n.d.), published by Pitman. Professor Levin learned of the contents of the book [from the proofs which were sent to him from time to time] for which he wrote the introduction gradually, as it had already been sent to the printer. As Professor Levin disclosed: "It was J. Yahuda's congeniality and my inherent curiosity that did not allow me to refuse the writing of the introduction." [For a better understanding as to why Professor Levin was not enthusiastic about  writing the introduction, consider the fact that] the black Jew, Martin Bernal, has stated: "Saul Levin was among the many Jewish individuals who worked on the publication of [my] book, Black Athena." A book which has been deemed to be a disgrace and a discredit to serious scholarship by the vast majority of specialists who have read it.

    Joseph Yahuda speaks about his work

    In the preface of his book, J. Yahuda notes:

    This ecumenical research will be reviewed by three separate specialists, one for each language researched, although each specialist does have knowledge of the other two languages. This is not an error committed only by me. I attempted repeatedly, yet unsuccessfully, to find more scholars who would be willing to assist me in my quests. As an example of what I was up against, at the very beginning of an hours-long meeting, one potential colleague exclaimed: "All of this is garbage and we are all wasting our time." My answer was: "Both you, and I, will be judged for the words we say, whenever we discuss my work." I hold no hostility or bitterness because of such small-minded opposition to my belief. In fact, during the progress of my research, I twice attempted to arouse [this man's] interest, but in vain. A little while after the meeting referred to above, I mentioned his degrading comment to Christodoulos Hourmouzios, a graduate of the University of Athens, and an acknowledged specialist on Homer, and he said: ' I think you are one of the greatest linguists I know'; he promised complete cooperation with me. Unfortunately, before we could begin our work, he passed away.

    "There were others who admitted that they had been convinced; that something did really exist in my theory. However, they did think that my belief in the correspondence of Hebrew with Greek was rather exaggerated. They said I was too ambitious, and suggested, for my own good, that I expect less and adopt a 'less controversial view.' One of them, Sir Leon Simon (A British Lord of Jewish descent), a known classicist who knew Hebrew, attended my first lecture on the issue on the evening of Jan. 14th, 1959.He did this even though he was old and had to travel a long distance in bad weather and heavy fog. He introduced me, briefly and carefully, not wanting to commit himself to any decision until the end of my speech. Then, before the audience was asked to pose questions, he said the following, which I noted: 'I don't believe that everyone will agree with everything J. Yahuda has told us, as he may have thought that everyone understood what he was saying. Despite any doubts that may exist, I am sure of one thing. He has resolved a mystery that had created confusion for scholars for the past 2.000 years. For, if he is correct in stating that many Greek words that begin with sk were transformed in Hebrew as if sk was a digraph [a combination of two letters to make one simple sound. ed.], or one of the two letters lost, then Homer was not wrong when he left the vrachi [ abbreviated ] vowel at the beginning of the word Skamandros, as in his famous line: ' , '. [The Gods called Xanthos, mortal men Skamandros. ed.]  I also had a fruitful interview with a scholar of international fame, which was then followed by a series of exchanges of correspondence. This correspondence ceased after he sent me a note, wherein he wrote: 'It could also be possible that you would say that the English word ball comes from the Greek , or that you discover a connection between chow and show since chows are exhibited at shows.

    "The result was that I was obliged to fall back on my own sources, and to depend only on my own efforts, thus devoting my free time to this research for the past 30 years or more. Two things kept me going: the unfailing support of my wife, Cecile, and the unprecedented emotions we felt with every new discovery. When my wife was asked by a friend how she was sure of my work, since she knew neither Greek nor Hebrew, she answered: 'But, I know my husband. He hates speculating, he always insists on finding proof. As a lawyer, he is able to evaluate this proof. He tells me that he has plenty of proof that is convincing, and I believe him.' There is truly a plethora of 'proof that is convincing' which I have attempted to make available, not only to those technically specialized, but also to interested, non-specialist researchers."

    Yahuda realizes the significance of Greek Civilization

    "I was somewhat familiar with the Bible, as stated above. My brother, Solomon, and I learned the New Testament in Hebrew translation from a copy that my father had, as part of his personal library. For years, the distant Biblical past was alive in my mind: I lived with the vision of the pyramids to such an extent, and my passion for the Bible was so great, that I developed hostile feelings for the Greeks and Romans. Strangely, this hostility did not involve the Egyptians, who were our enemies, had been the enemies of our forefathers and had so deeply influenced post-Biblical Hebrew. Neither had I been able to learn more than the necessary Latin needed for my law education and practice. However, my feelings for the Greeks and Romans have changed radically since then. Now I realize that our differences were similar to those of a civil war, as fratricidal as the taking of Troy had been, for I became convinced that the Jews are of Greek descent. This revolutionary transformation took place around the time I was thirty years old, following the publishing of my book Law and Life according to Hebrew Thought.  That year (1932), I became interested in biology as a 'hobby'. During my haphazard study of the issue, I came across various Greek words that were strikingly similar to the Hebrew words of the Bible, and I drew the conclusion that the Greeks had borrowed them from us. I began debating the idea of whether or not I should one day begin a systematic comparison of the two languages. At that time, I was still fascinated with the more traditional studies, and, like everyone else, I believed without a doubt that the Semitic languages were Semitic and the Aryan languages were Aryan. These two could not be mixed. At the same time, though, I was thinking that it would be interesting to collect and   deconstruct a complete list of groups of similar words so as to demonstrate the degree of influence of Hebrew on Greek at the time before Alexander the Great (considering that the reverse influence became stronger following his conquests). I knew very little of where this research would lead me and what the results would show.

    "I had such little knowledge of Greek that all I knew were the first letters of the alphabet, knowledge that I had acquired by chance during my studies of mathematics and geometry. I remember asking my friend Gerald Emanuel, in a teashop in 1932, to write the whole Greek alphabet on the bottom of a half-written page. The years passed, but when I published my book Biology and New Medicine in 1951, I then had the opportunity to spend all of my free time on researching those possible links that I suspected existed between Biblical Hebrew and Greek. Following the acquisition of some rudimentary knowledge of Greek grammar, I submerged into the translation of the Septuagint, solely based on my memory of the meaning of the numerous pages that I had chosen to read. Then I read Homer, comparing him to the Bible. One page from the translation of the Iliad, one page from the Old Testament, line for line, page by page; I started with Genesis and the first book of the Iliad, along with the last book of the Odyssey and the 2nd book of 'Chronicles.' Day after day, the list of similar words grew longer, until it reached 600 words -- including words related to different views and activities of life -- which could not be attributed only to the borrowing factor. In any case, history has not witnessed circumstances where such elaborate borrowing would be possible on such a large scale. I was convinced that this phenomenon went past the limits of borrowing, reaching the limits of a genetic relationship. The door of genealogical descent stood before me and I could not attempt to pass through it or climb above it. It should open freely and widely and the key to this was the grammar. The only grammatical characteristics that I knew of that were common to both Greek and Hebrew, concerned the definite article and the dual number nouns [count nouns. ed.]. I stopped reading and began thinking and re-thinking the results of my non-processed research. I used the materials I had: analyzing, classifying, comparing these with the Biblical variations and the dialectic interchanges of the Greek letters, selecting specific words to be compared. Thus, my theory began to develop. Some of the Greek dialectic letters could be used interchangeably, such as the letters 'k' and 't', 'o' and 'a', 's' and 'd.'  I also noted a curious transformation with Hebrew words: a suffix to a Greek word changed to a prefix in a Hebrew word. Early on during my research, I tested the exactness of the words and verified their meanings. As the number of tests increased, the more effective my research became, and the confidence in my theory rose.

    "From the beginning, I based a lot of my work on Arabic. With my theory, it became possible for me to correct the translation of the Septuagint, using the Septuagint and the translation of the Bible, using the Bible. These discoveries cured me of my dyslexia in relationship to Greek and Hebrew and made me capable of reading a Hebrew word as if it had been a variation of the word. I formed a series of phonetic and morphology rules. I gradually gathered a number of valuable facts. Some examples are that the declension dotiki [dative] exists in Hebrew, that the masculine plural is the same in Hebrew and Greek, and that, in general, a compound Greek verb is equivalent to a Hebrew compound verb. I estimate that 9 out of each 10 words of the [Jewish] Bible can be proved to have a purely Greek equivalent. Many issues were resolved which prove that the Greeks and Jews hold some customs and religious convictions in common, whereas the Hebrew language is proven to be richer and more beautiful than believed until today because of the existence of these groups of words. This whole matter is, in practice, consistent with the following two proposals: Biblical Hebrew is Greek; and, the Jews are Asian Greeks. In reality, the conclusion of this massive, extended and complicated research can be summarized in the following brief sentence: Hebrew is 'Greek wearing a mask.'"

    An example for the rest of his co-religionists

    As already stated, the research of  J. Yahuda restores part of a universal truth that has fallen into oblivion for millennia. Not only is the Hebrew language "Greek wearing a mask" (in other words, a distorted version of Greek), but, as we have announced at international conventions, there is no other language on the face of the earth except Greek. A few years ago, we made this statement at a convention of the Literary Society Parnassos,  titled: "The Ecumenical Character of the Greek Language," where we used texts and images to prove this statement. All other languages are just descendants or distorted dialects of Greek, adopted by the peoples.

    Finally, we present one of the tables compiled by the undaunted scholar, J. Yahuda, where Hebrew letters, along with their pronunciation in Hebrew appear on the left, the equivalent Greek letters and their pronunciation in the middle, and the Arabic letters and pronunciation on the right. In the preface, just above the table shown below, Yahuda's first theorem is written, to wit: "The Greek and Hebrew alphabets demonstrate striking similarity insofar as the order of the letters is concerned, their names, their shapes and their pronunciation." 

    We cannot omit to express our admiration for this great man, who, defying the forces of darkness and medieval ignorance, proved to be an unbiased scholar, unburdened by preconceived dogma and purposeful deception. A man who broke the bonds of mischievous misinformation so prevalent in [the past] century, and dared to defy traditional nationalistic and racist fanaticism while declaring a revolution against the international forces of power. He has achieved the level of a true Hellene. After discovering the truth, he struggled to make it known, he revealed it and he published it without fear. His acts were acts of patriotism, since he has raised his compatriots to a level approaching the Greeks. He called them "Asian Greeks." His life and work truly pronounce him to be of equal value to a Greek, in contrast with those of his compatriots who have denounced him and his book. Is it because they are afraid or is it because they are unable to follow in his footsteps?

    In Conclusion

    Yahuda has scientifically proven that both Hebrew and Arabic are Greek in their origin, as is true with the other languages of the world. It is to be regretted that the speakers of this distorted Greek dialect do not take advantage of this, so as to elevate themselves to free and Christ-loving Greeks, as their compatriot Yahuda has done. Many of them  prefer to live in the dark; It is a fact to be pitied that some are fanatics who hate everything Greek, especially her history and her language. In the past, many such men appeared in the Roman State as politicians, academics or administrators in the public sector, and fought against everything that was Greek. Nowadays, such men cooperate with the global powers that are propelling the world toward destruction. A destruction that can only be avoided by a rebirth of the only salvation for humanity: Greek Civilization! 

    Source

    This article was written by Attorney, linguist, and researcher, Konstantinos G. Georganas, for Davlos. Feb. 1999 issue, pp.12931-12937. (Translation by staff. Emphasis not in original text was added.)

     

    Note: The great rhetorician, Isocrates (436-338 B.C.), gave the following definition of a Hellene in his Panagyricus:

     

                                             Athens has so far outrun the rest of mankind in thought

                                             and speech that her disciples are the masters of the rest,

                                             and it is due to her that the word "Greek" is not so 

                                             much a term of birth as it is of mentality, and is applied

                                             to a common culture rather than a common descent (50).

     



    -------------
    "There are worse crimes than burning books. One of them is not reading them. "
    --- Joseph Alexandrovitch Brodsky, 1991, Russian-American poet, b. St. Petersburg and exiled 1972 (1940-1996)


    Posted By: Menippos
    Date Posted: 21-Jul-2005 at 16:12
    There is another lost book somewhere that says that everyone in here should pay me $100.000 each.

    -------------
    CARRY NOTHING


    Posted By: Phallanx
    Date Posted: 21-Jul-2005 at 20:21
    Menippos

    Now that is a great loss, we have to do something about finding that one


    Spartakus

    I can understand Komnenos depending on a translated version of the text in question and comming to the wrong conclusion.
    But  you????
    You  should see the obvious difference. We had this discussion like, 3-4 times. Even if you do not comprehend ancient (which isn't that difficult) this is actually a quite simple text and you should attempt to finally learn what it means.It's not like Homer's texts, this is childsplay.

    Maybe this will help.

    "kai to twn Hellhnwn onoma pepoihke mhketi tou genous alla ths dianoias dokein einai, kai mallon Hellhnas kaleisthai tous ths paideusews ths hemeteras h tous ths koinhs phusews metechontas."

    I'll break it down for you:

    kai = AND
    to = THE
    twn = OF THE
    Hellhnwn = HELLINES
    onoma = NAME
    pepoihke = WAS MADE
    mhketi = NO LONGER
    tou = OF
    genous = RACE
    alla = BUT
    ths = OF
    dianoias = THOUGHT or as Minippos put it (what goes through mind)
    dokein = I THINK, SUPPOSE
    einai = IS
    kai = AND
    mallon = RATHER
    Hellhnas =  HELLINAS
    kaleisthai = IS CALLED
    tous = THOSE
    ths = OF
    paideusews =  EDUCATION
    ths = OF
    hemeteras = OUR
    H =
    OR
    tous = THOSE
    ths = OF
    koinhs = COMMON
    phusews= NATURE
    metechontas = SHARE, TAKE PART

    (Almost every single word is stiil in use today. So what is the mix up all about???)

    He is simply stating that the name Hellines has become renowned not for who the people are but for their exellence in art, philosophy, speech etc and for this reason they are considered the teachers of the world.

    But why has this happened?
    Simply because as he wrote earlier, but you source chose not to mention it nor does it seem that you have you ever read his speech, which is probably the reason you jump to conclussions.
     
    There is no, not one single text in ancient Hellinic history that presents the extent of "nationalism" seen in Iscrates' Panegyricus. In his entire text he's praising Athens and the Hellines in an attempt to unite them and continuously degrading the rest of the world (see Persia).

    To the text again:
    (After noting exactly how advanced Athens was)

    "that whether men have been liberally educated from their earliest years is not to be determined by their courage or their wealth or such advantages, but is made manifest most of all by their speech, and that this has proved itself to be the surest sign of culture in every one of us, and that those who are skilled in speech are not only men of power in their own cities but are also held in honor in other states.
    [50]And so far has our city distanced the rest of mankind in thought and in speech that her pupils have become the teachers of the rest of the world;...............mentioned above......................."
    (Panegyricus 49-50)

    ---
    I do suggest you read the original but in it's original version, not some wanna-be translator's view. Once you start reading the originals you'll find loads of mistranslations that actually give a wrong meaning to the texts.

    Note: The great rhetorician, Isocrates (436-338 B.C.), gave the following definition of a Hellene in his Panagyricus


    Hell the author hardly knows his own language. -PANHGYRIKOS NOT PANA-



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    To the gods we mortals are all ignorant.Those old traditions from our ancestors, the ones we've had as long as time itself, no argument will ever overthrow, in spite of subtleties sharp minds invent.


    Posted By: Spartakus
    Date Posted: 22-Jul-2005 at 06:07
    Phallanx,you overreact.My post is not a serious one,that's why the .i was joking.

    -------------
    "There are worse crimes than burning books. One of them is not reading them. "
    --- Joseph Alexandrovitch Brodsky, 1991, Russian-American poet, b. St. Petersburg and exiled 1972 (1940-1996)


    Posted By: Menippos
    Date Posted: 22-Jul-2005 at 06:21
    As I said...politics...

    -------------
    CARRY NOTHING


    Posted By: Kenaney
    Date Posted: 22-Jul-2005 at 12:24

    Hey greek guys dont be shocked when fanatic jews claiming that cyprus origin is Jewish too. They are working on, i swear it.



    -------------
    OUT OF LIMIT


    Posted By: Mortaza
    Date Posted: 22-Jul-2005 at 13:52

    Kenaney

    IIRC, one time ottomans promised jews for cyprus.

    But after the conquest for cyprus, because of their heavy lost, they just become angry greeks and didnt give it them.

    Maybe they will try their chance again.

    Np. cyprus is a helenic land.

     



    Posted By: Perseas
    Date Posted: 22-Jul-2005 at 16:42
    Originally posted by Kenaney

    Hey greek guys dont be shocked when fanatic jews claiming that cyprus origin is Jewish too. They are working on, i swear it.

    No worries here. But better u Turkish guys keep an eye on them. I have found a certain amount of Jewish people in the net to support the non-Turkic origin of Khazaria.



    -------------
    A mathematician is a person who thinks that if there are supposed to be three people in a room, but five come out, then two more must enter the room in order for it to be empty.


    Posted By: Phallanx
    Date Posted: 22-Jul-2005 at 21:00
    Originally posted by Kenaney

    Hey greek guys dont be shocked when fanatic jews claiming that cyprus origin is Jewish too. They are working on, i swear it.


    We know all about it. There have been previous attempts but fortunately unsuccessful.

    In 1975 newspaper headlines throughout Hellas announced the interdiction of an Israeli "fishing boat," which had been stopped and boarded by the Hellinic Coast Guard.

    The Israeli "fishermen" had been dropping "'ancient' tablets inscribed in Hebrew" into the waters off the coast of Crete. These "ancient" tablets would no doubt have been "discovered" at some later date by Israeli marine archaeologists, and used to "prove" that the ancient Cretans were "Semitic," thereby helping to lay the groundwork for the execution of their plan to add Crete to the greater history of Israel they are (or at least were) working to build.

    When Michael Ventris deciphered the Cretan Linear B inscriptions in 1953, and proved that they were written in Hellinic, there were no doubt many long faces among them

    (Note: the article has been edited)


    -------------
    To the gods we mortals are all ignorant.Those old traditions from our ancestors, the ones we've had as long as time itself, no argument will ever overthrow, in spite of subtleties sharp minds invent.


    Posted By: Anonym
    Date Posted: 29-Jul-2005 at 14:27
    Originally posted by Yiannis

    That happens when one examines ancient sounces only by their context,  not taking into account the social/political environment in which they were written in.

    For example, I remember a fascist Greek, taking into account a phrace of a Jewish writer who saying something in the lines of "these hated Greeks, we should kill them etc...". That taken out of proportion can be used to show that "Jews hate Greeks", but considering that this was written at a time when the process of the Hellenisation of Judea was in full swing, with Greek colonists arriving all the time and Hellenized Jews worshiping Zeus in the Temple of Solomon, one gets another picture. That the writter was a faithfull & patriotic Jew who resists the conquerors of his country.

    I think that this part in in the Old testament, Macabees or something like it...

     

    It was common practice to claim a kinship with other people when corresponding.  I seem to recall a series of correspondences by the Hittite king with a western power (let's not start up which one) that steadily grew more familial as that other power became more prominent and worthy of respect.  It's a diplomatic protocol, that's all.



    Posted By: Nick1986
    Date Posted: 20-Sep-2011 at 19:04
    I don't think so. The Spartans encouraged homosexuality while the Jews viewed it as an abomination. I may be wrong, but i don't think the Greeks practised circumcision or worshipped the one true God. However, both Jews and Spartans had long hair, skilled slingers and mythical strongmen in the form of Samson and Hercules, making it possible one civilisation copied the other

    -------------
    Me Grimlock not nice Dino! Me bash brains!


    Posted By: Nick1986
    Date Posted: 21-Sep-2011 at 19:35
    One theory links the Spartans with the tribe of Dan, though i don't buy it

    -------------
    Me Grimlock not nice Dino! Me bash brains!


    Posted By: eaglecap
    Date Posted: 22-Sep-2011 at 17:10
    I wish Yiannis were here to answer but I see no cultural, religious or ethnic connection between the Spartans and the Jews.




    we should add this one to our emoticons-LOL

    -------------
    Λοιπόν, αδελφοί και οι συμπολίτες και οι στρατιώτες, να θυμάστε αυτό ώστε μνημόσυνο σας, φήμη και ελευθερία σας θα ε


    Posted By: Nick1986
    Date Posted: 22-Sep-2011 at 19:33
    According to this source there was a Jewish community in Sparta until the 10th century when they were expelled in response to a plague outbreak. Perhaps their ancestors migrated there when Israel and Sparta first made contact?
    http://books.google.com/books?id=r-9qJRP20MIC&lpg=PA59&dq=sparta%20jews&pg=PA59#v=onepage&q&f=false - History of the Byzantine Jews

    -------------
    Me Grimlock not nice Dino! Me bash brains!


    Posted By: eaglecap
    Date Posted: 23-Sep-2011 at 14:15
    I know by the time of Christ Greece had a large Jewish population but is that the 10th c. AD?

    I will have to print out this article and read it over later. Thank you!


    Better yet I think I will purchase the book via Hastings or Amazon.com

    It looks very interesting and anything about Byzantine history I love since it is part of my roots.

    -------------
    Λοιπόν, αδελφοί και οι συμπολίτες και οι στρατιώτες, να θυμάστε αυτό ώστε μνημόσυνο σας, φήμη και ελευθερία σας θα ε



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