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About Russian influence in Mongolian cult

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Topic: About Russian influence in Mongolian cult
Posted By: hannibal
Subject: About Russian influence in Mongolian cult
Date Posted: 31-Aug-2004 at 12:03

One of my best friend visited the capital of Mongolia, he returned and told me that Russia exerted heavy influence on Mongolian culture.

Can someone here give me the detail? Thx!



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Who am I?
I'm General of Carthage;
Eternal biggest enemy of Rome.



Replies:
Posted By: Tobodai
Date Posted: 31-Aug-2004 at 12:04
money, posters, ugly apartment complexes and political structures.

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"the people are nothing but a great beast...
I have learned to hold popular opinion of no value."
-Alexander Hamilton


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 31-Aug-2004 at 12:09
IIRC Mongolian also use Cyrillic characters nowadays

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Posted By: JanusRook
Date Posted: 31-Aug-2004 at 14:55

IIRC Mongolian also use Cyrillic characters nowadays

That's such a shame I always thought that the mongolian alphabet was very beautiful.



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Economic Communist, Political Progressive, Social Conservative.

Unless otherwise noted source is wiki.


Posted By: hannibal
Date Posted: 01-Sep-2004 at 08:05

Thank you all... a bit abstract...

(1)money,        Tob odai, you mean ruble are welcome in Mongolia?
(2)posters,       ?
(3)ugly apartment complexes  ?
and
(4)political structures       I get it
(5)Cyrillic characters        My god!!

Mongols in China still use this alphbet system.



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Who am I?
I'm General of Carthage;
Eternal biggest enemy of Rome.


Posted By: warhead
Date Posted: 01-Sep-2004 at 10:38
Only outermongolians use the Cyrillics, most mongols still use the old writing.


Posted By: Tobodai
Date Posted: 02-Sep-2004 at 20:27
Originally posted by hannibal

Thank you all... a bit abstract...

(1)money,        Tob odai, you mean ruble are welcome in Mongolia?
(2)posters,       ?
(3)ugly apartment complexes  ?
and
(4)political structures       I get it
(5)Cyrillic characters        My god!!

Mongols in China still use this alphbet system.

 

No I didnt mean they use the ruble, I mean their money has that post communist visual flair.



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"the people are nothing but a great beast...
I have learned to hold popular opinion of no value."
-Alexander Hamilton


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 03-Sep-2004 at 13:16
Uigur script is still taught in Mongolia even during communism it was taught in secondary schools. Also Mongols in Russia use cyrillic and I don't know what alphabet Khazara Mongols use in Afganistan. 


Posted By: Chono
Date Posted: 03-Sep-2004 at 14:53

Well as someone who grew up in one of those ugly apartment complexes I could shed some light. Russians did influence our country heavily. We had a KGB installed brain-washed politburo chief for 40 years, who with his russian wife unseccesfully led us to the bright communist future alongside the big brother (that's literally how we dub russians even now). After killing all the educated people in the 30s the soviets sent armies of young mongolians to Russia to get "proper" education. So we get exactly two soviet educated generations. A quarter of all soviet citizens who worked outside of USSR did so in Mongolia, as "instructors" or as a support for the 5th Soviet army stationed here. Mongolia was called the 16th soviet republic, russians had a saying "chicken are not bird, mongolia is not abroad". But fortunately now they're gone. Left behind the soviet style architecture, the cyrillic alphabet, memories of stalinist purges along with some sort of nostalgia among 40-50 year old people. And now,

1. Money... is in big demand!

2. Posters - neon lights haven't quite reached us yet.

3. Ugly buildings - we still love'em, so they'll probly be tore down by our children, not us. Currently there's a construction boom in Mongolia, most buildings seem to be chinese-inspired, construction companies mostly employ chinese.

4. Political structure - now radically differs from the russian. We've got a real democracy going on, since we've got no other choice . But the taste is good so we'll probly stick with it.

5. Cyrillic alphabet - is still being used. It would cost us too much to change the script like in the 40s, especially with the current horizontal latin-driven communication technologies. But if the cost problem is solved, we'd change back in an instant. The classical script is being taught from the third grade in secondary schools to the fourth semester in sanctioned colleges, so most younger people easily wield it, older ones rarely.

I guess right now the russian influence is dying out. Moscow is viewed negatively. The russian language is uncool.  You can find more germans in the capital than russians. But in polls about the most trustworthy, favorite country Russia still leads, with Japan, US and Korea close behind. And there's of course the mongol minorities in Russia.



Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 13-Sep-2004 at 05:50

I am a 14 year old australian boy and i was lucky enough to go to mongolia only 3 months ago and i believe that the russians certainly did alot of damage to the mongolian culture and relics and it was sad to see that the mongolian writing that was in use less than 100 years ago is now totally out of the system.

one thing that i found with the mongolians is that they are almost 50% asian and 50% russian influenced. the way they pray and the dedication is very asian but the surroundings and the products are all russian.

what i guess i am saying is that while the russians created another russia in its looks and everything like that but the mongol way of life is still there.

off that i loved mongolia and would like to keep in contact with somebody who lives in ulanbatoor.



Posted By: demon
Date Posted: 13-Sep-2004 at 08:40

Okay, here is what happened...

in the 1970's or something, the communist mongol regime wanted to "modernize" and starting immitaing everything USSR did....

but

unfortunately in these days, they now want to learn more about their past..but because they lost so much from trying to become USSR, they said that it would take at least 100 years to recover what they lost



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Grrr..


Posted By: Chono
Date Posted: 16-Sep-2004 at 09:47
Don't worry people, apart from ugly buildings not much russian influence is left. I don't think we "lost so much", the language is there, the culture is there, what else do you need? Every asian nation has lost something because of exposure to western culture.


Posted By: Chono
Date Posted: 27-Sep-2004 at 16:32
 well, welcome to the Horde.


Posted By: maersk
Date Posted: 30-Sep-2004 at 21:32

influence goes both ways,, the mongols had their shot at russia back in the 1200's...hehehe 

 

theres an old saying... "prick a russian and he bleeds mongol blood"

(from when the mongols where "busy" with russian women during the conquest)



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"behold, vajik, khan of the magyars, scourge of the pannonian plain!"


Posted By: maersk
Date Posted: 30-Sep-2004 at 21:33
and the mongol script looks alot like egyptian hieroglyphics when you look at it long enough.

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"behold, vajik, khan of the magyars, scourge of the pannonian plain!"


Posted By: Chono
Date Posted: 01-Oct-2004 at 04:22
No it looks like latin. maersk, what kind of mongol are you?


Posted By: maersk
Date Posted: 01-Oct-2004 at 12:11

im of the franco-gallic tribe of mongols

 



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"behold, vajik, khan of the magyars, scourge of the pannonian plain!"


Posted By: Evildoer
Date Posted: 04-Oct-2004 at 17:43
It dosn't resemble hyrogliphics at all... It looks rather like a combination of Greek Alphabet and Arabic.


Posted By: yan.
Date Posted: 18-Apr-2005 at 14:10

Originally posted by Chono

Don't worry people, apart from ugly buildings not much russian influence is left.
There's also masses of 469's and the Furgons. And of course there are all those russian loanwords. What I find strange is when German or English 'h'  is made to 'g', like in Galstuk or the four evil G's of Nazi Germany.

 

P.S. And I think all of the cities have some soviet-style monument on the main square. I was especially fond of the tank in UB. Wondered what his connection to Mongolia was (was he part of the 'Revolutionary Mongolia' unit?)



Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 18-Apr-2005 at 14:22

Originally posted by maersk

and the mongol script looks alot like egyptian hieroglyphics when you look at it long enough.

In fact, Mongolian script looks like Sogdian because the Uighur Turkish alphabet was derived from Soghdian, and Mongols use this as the official alphabet.



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Posted By: Feramez
Date Posted: 18-Apr-2005 at 22:51
Yea, Cengiz Han adopted the Uygur alphabet to establish a writing system for his great empire.


Posted By: perdon
Date Posted: 19-Apr-2005 at 07:23

Originally posted by Chono

Don't worry people, apart from ugly buildings not much russian influence is left. I don't think we "lost so much", the language is there, the culture is there, what else do you need? Every asian nation has lost something because of exposure to western culture.

Ass hole !!!!the russian also brings civilization to you !,you idiot!



Posted By: Kalevipoeg
Date Posted: 26-Apr-2005 at 15:00

"Ass hole !!!!the russian also brings civilization to you !,you idiot!"

 

If you mean the USSR, which you very probably do, then you are one of those deluded romantics who can't let go of the fact that the USSR was nothing more then a shadow of civilization and culture during his reign. What did he bring to anyone he ignorantly invaded - hatred towards himself, cultural dark holes, made the entire Russian nation be laughed at and made them seem as a bunch of alcoholics and murderers to his neighbours. The state forcefully tried to make you loose your identity and nationality. Of what culture are you talking about. Romantics aren't all bad, but you should read something from authors of realism or naturalism.



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There is nothing in the world more helpless and irresponsible than a man in the depths of an ether binge...


Posted By: Feramez
Date Posted: 26-Apr-2005 at 16:31
Originally posted by perdon

Originally posted by Chono

Don't worry people, apart from ugly buildings not much russian influence is left. I don't think we "lost so much", the language is there, the culture is there, what else do you need? Every asian nation has lost something because of exposure to western culture.

Ass hole !!!!the russian also brings civilization to you !,you idiot!

 

What are you talking about?  Mongolia had and still does have a great civilization before the USSR.  If they brought civilization to Mongolia then shouldn't they be living almost like Russians?  From what I know they don't live like Russians.  The nomads definetly don't, the urban lifestyle from what I know is not Russian, I'm sure some influence is there.  So how did the USSR bring them civilization?



Posted By: yan.
Date Posted: 26-Apr-2005 at 18:27

Originally posted by Kalevipoeg

"Ass hole !!!!the russian also brings civilization to you !,you idiot!"

 

If you mean the USSR, which you very probably do, then you are one of those deluded romantics who can't let go of the fact that the USSR was nothing more then a shadow of civilization and culture during his reign. What did he bring to anyone he ignorantly invaded - hatred towards himself, cultural dark holes, made the entire Russian nation be laughed at and made them seem as a bunch of alcoholics and murderers to his neighbours. The state forcefully tried to make you loose your identity and nationality. Of what culture are you talking about. Romantics aren't all bad, but you should read something from authors of realism or naturalism.

I think Mongolians view Russians more favorable than Estonians do. Which is somewhat ironic, given the Russian attitude towards Mongolia (as expressed by perdon). I guess you can write it down to Russia protecting them from China and to the fact that socialism actually brought a great deal of development to Mongolia (schools, access to health care etc). 

Russians being a bunch of alcoholics probably only enforced the image of Russia as some kind of elder brother  .



Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 27-Apr-2005 at 09:58

@ perdon,

I thought you were an Uzbek Turk, but I cant understand how you can think Russians brought civilization to Mongols. Instead of bringing them civilization, Russia always tried to destroy the historical and linguistic bonds btw its former socialist republics and non-Russian subjects, such as Tunguz, Mongolic and Turkic people. For example, they adopted different cyril alphabet versions to the Turkic nations to differ all Turkic nations from each other, and to prevent a possible unificated Turkestan. They didnt care about their own cultures or civizlizations, and gave Russian names to all those cities of central asia, and settled Russians there to be the major culture. As an Uzbek, you should know these better than me.



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Posted By: perdon
Date Posted: 01-May-2005 at 21:38

Okey ! Gental men !

I of course remember what russians have doen to us ,here i am not trying to defend russian ,but  just think about modernization of mogolia ,it is the fact ,and they should apperciate that they can build a country with the help of russian !(From china in 1945).one more thing ,in Ozbekistan ,I ever knew some mongolian ,it seems they tent to like russian !

I think there is a probalem ,the defination of civilization ,if you think nomads are civilized and only having strong militar force is a kind of civilization ,well I don't think so ! mogol in the past centrues  had strong military only ,what kind of civilization did they have ?  one fact ,they invaded central asia ,what heppened then ?they became musilim and adoped turkic culture ,if they were  more civilized , they wouldn't use uyghur as their alphabet ,and use tibeten religion as their religion .

  Turk is turk ,Mongol is mogol ,maybe they have something in common ,but to me central asian turk and turkish turks are the most beautiful nation in this world !I am proud of being turk !



Posted By: AyKurt
Date Posted: 02-May-2005 at 08:59
Whats wrong with the Uyhgur alphabet and the Tibetan religion?  How does that make them less civilised?
in my opinion a marker of civilisation is what comes from within a society and not outside.  A truly civilised society wouldnt need to adopt someone elses alphabet nor would they have to adopt someone elses religion.  The same is true for the lifeways of that society.  For greater civilisations would have been creative enough to come up with these themselves as is relevant to that society.  A lesser one would have to adopt or copy it from another civilisation.   How many Turkic countries still use the Uyghur or Orkhon scripts?  Or follow an indigenous religion?
The mongols have to be congratulated for dispite being under Chinese and Russian occupation they still retain elements of their own civilisation, and maybe Mongolia is not in the best of shapes today but they have a strong foundation that will help build a strong future for them tomorrow.  There are not many countries in Central or Western Asia that can say the same.


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Holding onto anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned. - Buddha


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 02-May-2005 at 12:41

@ perdon

Of course you should be proud of being a Turk. But this shouldnt make you unaware of where we all originated from. We had an ancient and developed nomadic civilization, we had our own religion, our own alphabets and our own ancient independent history, but noone can or has any reason to deny our national identity as nomads. Turkic culture is a nomadic civilization, and denying it is needless. This doesnt make you uncivilized or inferior, in fact, this provides you all you need to survive, the enormous ability of adoption to every natural, ethnical, cultural condition easily without being assimilated as a nation. And this makes our civilization richer among others, with the synthesis of other cultural developments into Turkic civilization.

That's true that Mongols adopted Turkic alphabet of Uighur but it is also true that Turks adopted it from Sogdian. But if we get deep inside history, we will see that even Sogdians were Turkic and Indo European mixture. I think the main blank in the Mongolian culture is the lack of their own religion. I always considered Mongols and Turks very different, both in linguistics, in history and culturally, but sure because of the nomadic life, there happened intermixing of cultures, linguistics, and ethnicities btw Eastern Turks and Mongols. But nomadic civilization was the common identity btw us...



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Posted By: Kazec
Date Posted: 03-May-2005 at 01:57

Mongol script is so beautiful!

Can Mongol script be processed by computer nowadays?



Posted By: Feramez
Date Posted: 03-May-2005 at 12:42

I've never seen it done, but I'm sure there's programs out there that will do it, from what I know you can use just about any alphabet now.



Posted By: AyKurt
Date Posted: 03-May-2005 at 17:06
I fully agree with Kazec.  The Uyghur script is one of the most elegant scripts i have ever seen.  Only fitting for a great culture and a great civilisation.  Congratulations to the Mongols for keeping it alive.

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Holding onto anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned. - Buddha


Posted By: chonos
Date Posted: 13-Dec-2005 at 15:23
In my opinion the worst russian influence to mongolians was heavy consumption of vodka and drinking habit as result mass alcoholism


Posted By: Sogdian
Date Posted: 14-Dec-2005 at 11:20
To appreciate what was positive about USSR influence on Mongolian culture, it's enough to visit Inner Mongolia in China and see the alternative.


Posted By: yan.
Date Posted: 14-Dec-2005 at 13:53

Originally posted by chonos

In my opinion the worst russian influence to mongolians was heavy consumption of vodka and drinking habit as result mass alcoholism

"Then they began drinking, and as is their custom, they kept on drinking till evening." John of Plano Carpini, History of the Mongols



Posted By: chonos
Date Posted: 14-Dec-2005 at 17:44
Well, I'd not say that mongols dislike drinking, as a matter of fact the "vodka" we drink is a low % alcohol distilled from mare's milk, a sort of sake, but not 43% spirit introduced by russians. 


Posted By: Akskl
Date Posted: 14-Dec-2005 at 23:12
For those who wants to know more about the Russian influence I would recommend to read the following book -
Kalpana Sahni “Crucifying the Orient – Russian Orientalism and the Colonization of Caucasus and Central Asia” - White Orchard Press, Bangkok, Thailand; The Institute for Comparative Research in Human Culture, Oslo, first published 1997



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