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What is the bravest act in history?

Printed From: History Community ~ All Empires
Category: General History
Forum Name: Military History
Forum Discription: Discussions related to military history: generals, battles, campaigns, etc.
URL: http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=4190
Printed Date: 28-Mar-2024 at 06:31
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Topic: What is the bravest act in history?
Posted By: aknc
Subject: What is the bravest act in history?
Date Posted: 28-Jun-2005 at 07:03
any choices?

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"I am the scourage of god appointed to chastise you,since no one knows the remedy for your iniquity exept me.You are wicked,but I am more wicked than you,so be silent!"
              



Replies:
Posted By: Richard XIII
Date Posted: 28-Jun-2005 at 07:16

Battle of Thermopylae




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"I want to know God's thoughts...
...the rest are details."

Albert Einstein


Posted By: Komnenos
Date Posted: 28-Jun-2005 at 08:57
The Warsaw Ghetto Uprising 1943

In April 1943 the population of the Jewish Ghetto in Warsaw rebelled against its deportation to Concentrations Camps by the Nazis.
750 Jewish fighters armed with small guns held out for a month against the entire force of the German occupying army.
The Uprising was crushed in May and the surviving 50.000 Jewish citizens were send to the gas-chambers of Treblinka.

http://www.ushmm.org/outreach/wgupris.htm - Warsaw Ghetto Uprising



German gun crew in the Warsaw Ghetto

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[IMG]http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i137/komnenos/crosses1.jpg">


Posted By: Phallanx
Date Posted: 28-Jun-2005 at 10:34
Well, even though there are many events that could be mentioned. My personal favorite is:
On the entrance of the Nazis in Athens, the Evzone on the Prthenon, was ordered to take down the Hellinic flag. He calmly took down the Hellinic flag wrapped it around himself and jumped off the cliff of the Parthenon and met his death.


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To the gods we mortals are all ignorant.Those old traditions from our ancestors, the ones we've had as long as time itself, no argument will ever overthrow, in spite of subtleties sharp minds invent.


Posted By: Heraclius
Date Posted: 28-Jun-2005 at 11:00
The defence of Constantinople 1453, a true example alongside Thermopylae of a vigorous and desperately brave struggle for survival.

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A tomb now suffices him for whom the world was not enough.


Posted By: Murtaza
Date Posted: 28-Jun-2005 at 11:16

Heraclius

In fact It is not, They had a wall never passed, and when wall colapsed, they lost war too. It was the wall protected them.

there are a lot of time Albanians did better job than this.

I think, In turkey history, It is anakkale wars.

 

 

 



Posted By: Yiannis
Date Posted: 28-Jun-2005 at 11:54

Originally posted by Phallanx

Well, even though there are many events that could be mentioned. My personal favorite is:
On the entrance of the Nazis in Athens, the Evzone on the Prthenon, was ordered to take down the Hellinic flag. He calmly took down the Hellinic flag wrapped it around himself and jumped off the cliff of the Parthenon and met his death.

This is probably a myth. The name of the guard was supposivelly Koukkides, but such a name was never in the Euzon ranks and noone knows someone who knew him. The story was widespread but most likelly it was told in the harsh times of nazi occupation as a symbol of resistance.

However what Manolis Glezos and his friend did, was trully heroic and true. They climbed on Acropolis at night, passed the Nazi guards, climbed up the poll and took down the swastika flag. They managed to escape with the flag and lived to tell the tale.

But I wonder what has happened to the poor German guard who was on duty that night

 



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The basis of a democratic state is liberty. Aristotle, Politics

Those that can give up essential liberty to obtain a temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. Benjamin Franklin


Posted By: Heraclius
Date Posted: 28-Jun-2005 at 12:01
Originally posted by Murtaza

Heraclius

In fact It is not, They had a wall never passed, and when wall colapsed, they lost war too. It was the wall protected them.

there are a lot of time Albanians did better job than this.

I think, In turkey history, It is anakkale wars.

 

 I disagree, theres alot more to it than just a wall.



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A tomb now suffices him for whom the world was not enough.


Posted By: Murtaza
Date Posted: 28-Jun-2005 at 12:53

Heraclius

Yes there is more than it.

Their empire is great one. He fight with passion, and died with honour.

Even Ottoman family accept it. 2. Abdulhamid told it to his brother when His brother want to retreat from Istanbul.

And He said,  "Byzantium King died at the wall of Istanbul, we were no worse than him. "

But I dont think and heard, Soldiers did a heroic defense and but They fight good.

And I dont think It is a survival war, Greeks at the Istanbul prefered Ottomans over latins. Even At third crusaders, Greeks dont help crusaders agains Turk.

So I think they dont afraid so much from the Ottomans. They afraid from latins more and more.

 

 

 

 



Posted By: Jalisco Lancer
Date Posted: 28-Jun-2005 at 13:07
Originally posted by Yiannis

Originally posted by Phallanx

Well, even though there are many events that could be mentioned. My personal favorite isn the entrance of the Nazis in Athens, the Evzone on the Prthenon, was ordered to take down the Hellinic flag. He calmly took down the Hellinic flag wrapped it around himself and jumped off the cliff of the Parthenon and met his death.


This is probably a myth. The name of the guard was supposivelly Koukkides, but such a name was never in the Euzon ranks and noone knows someone who knew him. The story was widespread but most likelly it was told in the harsh times of nazi occupation as a symbol of resistance.


However what Manolis Glezos and his friend did, was trully heroic and true. They climbed on Acropolis at night, passed the Nazi guards, climbed up the poll and took down the swastika flag. They managed to escape with the flag and lived to tell the tale.


But I wonder what has happened to the poor German guard who was on duty that night




This remembers me the storming of Chapultepec Castle on September 15, 1847.

A handful of cadets of the militar academy remained to defend the castle from the american invaders.
The Cadet Juan Escutia climbled to the top of the castle and wrapped it around himself and jumped off the cliffs.

There's a monument erected in the place where is body was found.

He was 20 years old when he died.



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Posted By: Heraclius
Date Posted: 28-Jun-2005 at 13:19
Originally posted by Murtaza

Heraclius

Yes there is more than it.

Their empire is great one. He fight with passion, and died with honour.

Even Ottoman family accept it. 2. Abdulhamid told it to his brother when His brother want to retreat from Istanbul.

And He said,  "Byzantium King died at the wall of Istanbul, we were no worse than him. "

But I dont think and heard, Soldiers did a heroic defense and but They fight good.

And I dont think It is a survival war, Greeks at the Istanbul prefered Ottomans over latins. Even At third crusaders, Greeks dont help crusaders agains Turk.

So I think they dont afraid so much from the Ottomans. They afraid from latins more and more.

 If the inhabitants of Constantinople would have preferred the Ottomans as rulers then they could have ousted the Byzantine Emperor and the remnants of its government.

 I think youll find the people of Constantinople would have preferred to be ruled by Greeks over Turks. Ive seen no evidence to think otherwise but I dont doubt they'd of wanted anything other than the Latins back.

 It was a battle of survival because the Emperor will have known that if the city fell Byzantiums identity would almost certinaly be destroyed along with the empire. It wasnt just as simple as a city swapping hands, it was the end of a civilisation which despite its dramatic changes from its origins could trace its history back to especially Constantine and the Roman Emperors who built up the empire.

 Mistra and Trebizond lasted a little longer but with the fall of Constantinople in 1453 the Byzantine empire was destroyed forever, therefore its defence being as you said and as quoted was brave and the defeat was honourable one befitting an empire, I consider that defence one of the bravest acts. IMO



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A tomb now suffices him for whom the world was not enough.


Posted By: Temujin
Date Posted: 28-Jun-2005 at 13:33
Originally posted by Yiannis

But I wonder what has happened to the poor German guard who was on duty that night

 

prolly he had to do the dirty laundry of his officers...



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Posted By: iskenderani
Date Posted: 28-Jun-2005 at 14:43

Originally posted by Heraclius

 If the inhabitants of Constantinople would have preferred the Ottomans as rulers then they could have ousted the Byzantine Emperor and the remnants of its government.

Well said Heraclius..

 I think youll find the people of Constantinople would have preferred to be ruled by Greeks over Turks. Ive seen no evidence to think otherwise but I dont doubt they'd of wanted anything other than the Latins back.

 It was a battle of survival because the Emperor will have known that if the city fell Byzantiums identity would almost certinaly be destroyed along with the empire. It wasnt just as simple as a city swapping hands, it was the end of a civilisation which despite its dramatic changes from its origins could trace its history back to especially Constantine and the Roman Emperors who built up the empire.

 Mistra and Trebizond lasted a little longer but with the fall of Constantinople in 1453 the Byzantine empire was destroyed forever, therefore its defence being as you said and as quoted was brave and the defeat was honourable one befitting an empire, I consider that defence one of the bravest acts. IMO

The ultimate heroic act is only one : The sacrifice , when there is nothing to hope for.

And the Greek History is full of them heroisms..... Even the very words "hero" , "heroism" are greek words...

Thermopylae : Leonidas , with his 300 Spartans and the 1000 Thespians , knows very well that he cant hold against 100.000 Persians . He also knows that by fighting and not retreating , he will give time  to the other Greeks to gather forces....He also knows what would mean the death of a Spartan king....And he stays. His sacrifice has all the impact he had predicted ...The Greeks will gather and they will win the decisive battle with the Persians...A well calculated military and political act from Leonidas...

Konstantinopolis : By May 1453 the East Roman Empire , the Byzantine Empire , the Greek Empire , is only Konstantinopolis. Surrounded by almost 200.00 Turks and janissaries , she counts her last days ...As u said Heraclius , the people know what has already happened to the Greek cities in Asia Minor and they dont have any hope. If the defenders were not surrender their city , the citizens were massacred , the young boys were taken to become janissaries , and the rest were sold as slaves .... If they surrender their city , a number of citizens were taken as hostages , prefferably women and children....and a number of men were executed as a lesson to be learned of what will happen to them if they decide , ever . to revolt against their masters...

So the last emperor takes his decisions ... He will fight , a desperate and hopless fight , but he will keep the people and the church away of this fight....hoping that they will not be maltreated if they wont fight....So , in his last hours , he puts the foundations of the Greek milliet ...the Orthodox Patriarchate...So he proceeds with his sacrifice , even if it takes the hand of someone to open a small side door , Kerkoporta , for the Turks to enter...But , he is half wrong ..... The city and its citizens will have a 3 days of slaughter and plunder ...... and to honor the city , the conqueror enters the Agia Sofia , on his horse....So much for honor of the defeated empire...

In Epirus , the clan of Souliotes , Greeks and Arvanites together , they have fought a long fight with Ali Pasha , the TurkAlbanian dictator of Ioannina...Now they are cornered up in the mountains along with their women and children ... And when they are almost all dead or wounded , the TurkAlbanians call to the women to surrender .... to live . But the women know better....Singing and dancing , one by one they jump over the cliff with their children in their arms , choosing death , than slavery in the TurkAlbanian hands...

In the monastery of Arkadi , when all is lost , the monk Samuel , inthe basement of the Monastery along with the wounded  will wait calmly for the Turks to enter the monastery and then he sets fire to the gunpowder sacrificing himself and the wounded , saving them from a torturous death in the hands of the Turks , and killing as many of the enemy , as he can..

In the fortifications of Rupel , the Nazi war machine , will present arms to the few that stood there defending their country against the Germans , as these few march bearing their arms , after they were outflancked...

Along with Glezos , as Yannis said , and a lot others who will give their lives during the nazi occupation , for freedom , all these men and women , give reason to the words : The Greeks do not fight like heroes...Heroes fight like Greeks...

Isk..



Posted By: Temujin
Date Posted: 28-Jun-2005 at 14:46
Originally posted by iskenderani

The ultimate heroic act is only one : The sacrifice , when there is nothing to hope for.

like suicide bombers?



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Posted By: iskenderani
Date Posted: 28-Jun-2005 at 14:56
Originally posted by Temujin

Originally posted by iskenderani

The ultimate heroic act is only one : The sacrifice , when there is nothing to hope for.

like suicide bombers?

Yes...i believe that the kamikaze were a brave lot of people , believing in their country and dying a heroic death...

They sacrificed willingly...

Isk..



Posted By: Heraclius
Date Posted: 28-Jun-2005 at 15:03

 It does take bravery to commit suicide to inflict harm upon an enemy, just as brave as a soldier instead of fleeing charging into the enemy when death is certain, that is just as suicidal with the same general result.

 I dont want to get into the whole Greeks hyping up Greek history up so to belittle the Turks or vice versa. I merely stated what I believe to be a heroic act that is all if you disagree you have every right to do so.



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A tomb now suffices him for whom the world was not enough.


Posted By: Temujin
Date Posted: 28-Jun-2005 at 15:08
so you all think the assault on the world trade center was a heroic act or what?

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Posted By: Murtaza
Date Posted: 28-Jun-2005 at 15:11

Heraclius
Heroic act of greeks will not belittle us

After All we overpowered Heroes

But as I said you before, even their emperor is a hero, there is not any proof other are hero. When wall gone, Byzantium also gone.

 



Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 28-Jun-2005 at 15:14

i think that the bravest act, perhaps not in history, but in recent history is the soldier who jumps onto the grenade to protect the others around him... that takes balls.

 

but apart from that.. the bravest act in history in my opinion is the 3000 Greeks who fought against the reputed army of 1 million Persians (slave nations etc)... and it was only at the end of the fighting... when Leonidas and what remained of the original 300 Spartans fighting with him chose to remain behind and delay the Persians until death. while the remaining survivors of the other 2700 greeks were able to make good their escape.

Go Tell The Spartans, Stranger Passing By, That Here Obedient To Their Laws We Lie



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Posted By: Heraclius
Date Posted: 28-Jun-2005 at 15:18

Originally posted by Temujin

so you all think the assault on the world trade center was a heroic act or what?

 I fail to see how a man who commits suicide can be considered cowardly, his motive is free to be bereted but his bravery not. That doesnt take away from the fact his act may or not be wrong or unjust.

Originally posted by Murtaza

Heraclius
Heroic act of greeks will not belittle us

After All we overpowered Heroes

But as I said you before, even their emperor is a hero, there is not any proof other are hero. When wall gone, Byzantium also gone.

 I was referring to the way Greeks often accuse the turks of being vicious and savages and vice versa, it usually occurs when this subject of 1453 comes up, alot of greeks find it a touchy subject when turks talk about it as a great event.



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A tomb now suffices him for whom the world was not enough.


Posted By: Murtaza
Date Posted: 28-Jun-2005 at 15:20

I think, when hard time comes, to die is a easy thing, To live is more difficult thing and need more balls.

 



Posted By: iskenderani
Date Posted: 28-Jun-2005 at 15:22

Originally posted by Temujin

so you all think the assault on the world trade center was a heroic act or what?

If u look at it from the terrorists eyes ..... yes it is a heroic act... but it is NOT a military act. They were NOT Iraqi soldiers  attacking American soldiers in America...They were a terrorist group , sacrificing their lives NOT against enemy soldiers , but against innocent humans . So this makes a lot of difference. They didnt protect their country , they protected their religious fanatism...Take the Japanese .... Their act was heroic , altough it was against the free world and supporting a fascist regime.... I dont examine the politics.... I examine the act itself...Kamikaze's act was pure military .... The terroristic act on the twins , was not . It was a political act...

Isk..

 



Posted By: Heraclius
Date Posted: 28-Jun-2005 at 15:33

Originally posted by Murtaza

I think, when hard time comes, to die is a easy thing, To live is more difficult thing and need more balls

 I know exactly what you mean, but I still think that to psych yourself up to give your life to a cause you believe to be right (whether its right or not is a point of view) takes some bravery. It doesnt mean the act was a brave one it was cowardly to target civilians, but the men who did it knowing their own death was imminent had some bravery surely.



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A tomb now suffices him for whom the world was not enough.


Posted By: Murtaza
Date Posted: 28-Jun-2005 at 15:43

Yes They were brave.

Infact They are not attacking civilians, They are attacking financial power of USA.

Or this is what they think

 



Posted By: aknc
Date Posted: 28-Jun-2005 at 17:30

Originally posted by Heraclius

The defence of Constantinople 1453, a true example alongside Thermopylae of a vigorous and desperately brave struggle for survival.

i'd vote for the first defence agianst the janissaries in the big breach(first because they broke in the secon time)



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"I am the scourage of god appointed to chastise you,since no one knows the remedy for your iniquity exept me.You are wicked,but I am more wicked than you,so be silent!"
              


Posted By: Spartakus
Date Posted: 28-Jun-2005 at 17:36
There is no such thing as 'bravest act'.A brave act with the same significance can be found at all periods of history,and in numerous battles.

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"There are worse crimes than burning books. One of them is not reading them. "
--- Joseph Alexandrovitch Brodsky, 1991, Russian-American poet, b. St. Petersburg and exiled 1972 (1940-1996)


Posted By: Sarmata
Date Posted: 28-Jun-2005 at 20:02
The Polish Home Army Uprising of 1944. Though I do agree the Warsaw Ghetto was a very brave act indeed, the one in 1944 was a bigger event in my opinion and bigger in every aspect. NOT Saying that the Warsaw Ghetto upsrising was irrelevant or some small event, IMO I just think the '44 Warsaw Uprising was a much bigger event.


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 28-Jun-2005 at 21:57

 well General Custer's final battle was quite brave...lol



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Posted By: Constantine XI
Date Posted: 29-Jun-2005 at 02:29

One that fills me with admiration is Constantine Palaeologos in 1453, after the wall collapse Constantinople still didn't give in. The Emperor and his fellow commanders died, the soldiers fought in the streets, and finally after the resisters were killed the city fell. The city was not surrendered after the walls collapsed.

One act of bravery is that of 70 Australian soldiers who, with the Japanese invasion of the territory of New Guinea, decided to oppose the attackers. The tiny garrison of men had to hold off an invasion force comprising several thousand men in 1941. The Japanese had as their objective Port Moresby, with the capture of which they would gain the initiative against the Australians. The capture of the city would give the Japanese the use of a major airfield as well as a depp water port from which they would be able to launch attacks against the Australian mainland itself. Before they could reach it they needed to traverse jungle laden mountainous terrain. For weeks on end the 70 man strong Australian garrison harassed the Japanese incessantly with guerilla raids. Stricken with lack of supplies and sheer exhaustion from striking out in continuous raids, the Australians held up the advance of tha Japanese for weeks, giving the commanders at home precious time to mobilize reinforcements to beat back the enemy. So ferocious were the attacks and so frequent from that handful of men that the Japanese thought they were actually outnumbered! For their courage and persistance in the face of terrible odds, those men were rewarded knowing that their efforts gave their country the time it needed to defeat the biggest threat it had ever faced.



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Posted By: Richard XIII
Date Posted: 29-Jun-2005 at 05:54
Giordano Bruno (and please not anoither greeks-turks war)

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"I want to know God's thoughts...
...the rest are details."

Albert Einstein


Posted By: aknc
Date Posted: 29-Jun-2005 at 10:27

Originally posted by Spartakus

There is no such thing as 'bravest act'.A brave act with the same significance can be found at all periods of history,and in numerous battles.

true actually



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"I am the scourage of god appointed to chastise you,since no one knows the remedy for your iniquity exept me.You are wicked,but I am more wicked than you,so be silent!"
              


Posted By: kotumeyil
Date Posted: 29-Jun-2005 at 11:33

Poet Nesimi and Hallac-i Mansur

As a result of their tasavvuf philosophy they said "I'm God (En'el Hakk)",  i. e. God and the whole universe(including humans) are unique by love and because of this "sin" one was skinned the other was crucified along with other tortures... (They were aware of their ends)



Posted By: Temujin
Date Posted: 29-Jun-2005 at 15:35
suicide attacks or making last stands is never heroic just plain stupid. runnign toward an enemy trench udner full enemy fire, throwing a grenade in and making it back to the own trench is bravery; taking a bunch of grenades, wrapping them aroudn the body and suicide jump into the other trench is stuipd.
making a last stand against a favourable enemy against all odds is stupid, the enemy will move on and take what he wants anyways; under the same situation retreat and try to defeat him in small prologned skirmishes or to lure him into a prepared ambush and to ultimately defeat him this way is the way of sucess. if anybody has doubts about what i said just look at WW2 and see how well the fight to the last man doctrine worked for Germans and Japansese...or the Greeks at Thermopylae for that matter...

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Posted By: aknc
Date Posted: 29-Jun-2005 at 17:41
Originally posted by Constantine XI

One that fills me with admiration is Constantine Palaeologos in 1453, after the wall collapse Constantinople still didn't give in. The Emperor and his fellow commanders died, the soldiers fought in the streets, and finally after the resisters were killed the city fell. The city was not surrendered after the walls collapsed.

No.They ran away as soon as the news of turks  getting in came



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"I am the scourage of god appointed to chastise you,since no one knows the remedy for your iniquity exept me.You are wicked,but I am more wicked than you,so be silent!"
              


Posted By: Komnenos
Date Posted: 29-Jun-2005 at 18:17
Originally posted by Heraclius

The defence of Constantinople 1453, a true example alongside Thermopylae of a vigorous and desperately bravestruggle for survival.



Before all we ex-Byzantine emperors get carried away, I would like to point out that Constantinople in 1453 is only example under many of a medieval city defending itself bravely against an overwhelming besieging force. There were thousands of others towns who fought with the same desperation and heroism against the inevitable.
Constantinople might have been the historically most significant,but that doesn't make it automatically the bravest.

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[IMG]http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i137/komnenos/crosses1.jpg">


Posted By: charles brough
Date Posted: 29-Jun-2005 at 18:20

The discussion has reached an important question.  Is the act of a suicide bomber a "heroic act?"  I don't think there is any question that it takes a lot of "guts".  It takes bravery, but is it "heroic" to take your life murdering other and helpless civilians? 

There is no question that Fundamentalist Islam is the underdog and has had to seek other ways of defending its identity, but even so, it is a new low in the history of warefare for our and Islamic civilization.  We are all aware of a time in our history when armies marched against each other.  Now we fly over them and gleefully rain death and destruction on them.  We fire missiles at them from beyond the horizon or from under the ocean.  We assasinate important people, float counterfit money, use depleated uranium and stock atomic bombs.  Yet, the deliberate killing of civilians in restaurants and busses is a new low.

The important thing about it is that it works.  It is a successful strategy.  It caused Spain and the Philappines to take their troops out of Iraq.  It aggrivated us into invading Islam and, hence, drive more young Muslim men into terrorism.  It works.  They attack us and we attack them so that we increase their numbers.  It is called "a retaliatory partnership" and we learned it from israel.  It will succeed in getting Bush re-elected because Iran is next.

charles

http://humanpurpose.simplenet.com - http://humanpurpose.simplenet.com

 

 

 



Posted By: Belisarius
Date Posted: 29-Jun-2005 at 19:05
Originally posted by Komnenos

Before all we ex-Byzantine emperors get carried away, I would like to point out that Constantinople in 1453 is only example under many of a medieval city defending itself bravely against an overwhelming besieging force. There were thousands of others towns who fought with the same desperation and heroism against the inevitable.
Constantinople might have been the historically most significant,but that doesn't make it automatically the bravest.


Forgive me, basileus, but I must disagree. The defense of Constantinople is one of the more heroic acts, even when compared with other similar situations.

First of all, there is the patriotic acts of Constantine Paleologus. Mehmed gave him the chance to rule unthreatened in Mystras, but he refused, choosing to die defending his people.

As for the overwhelming besieging force, the defenders of Constantinople were outnumbered more than 14 to 1, and of that small number, very few were actually soldiers. Against them was the one of the most best,  state-of-the-art armies of the time. Among the more than 100,000 Ottomans were 20,000 Janissaries, arguably the most elite military orders of the time. In addition to this was the fleet the blockaded the city. At the time, the population of Constantinople was about 50,000, meaning that the invading force outnumbered even the city's entire population. Despite all this, they managed to hold out for a month.

What sets this apart from other similar situations was that the situation was truly hopeless and yet they fought on. In those other situations, the Alamo or Wake Island for example, there was always the chance that if they held out long enough, a relief force would come or there would be at least hope that a relief force would come. In the Siege of Constantinople, they knew no such help would come.

You know, I have always wished I could go back in time and incite the European and Janissary divisions to defect. Or that I could go forward in time and then go back and wipe out the Ottomans with futuristic weapons. Hehe....


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Posted By: Constantine XI
Date Posted: 29-Jun-2005 at 20:59

I am with Belisarius on this one. Let's not turn this into another Byzantine dominated post, but I honestly can't help but admire 1453. Had the Byzantines fought with such courage in the previous few centuries they no doubt would have continued as a viable nation.

Thinking of the personal example of Constantine Palaeologos is truly an inspiration to deeds of bravery, he was a most virtuous man.

Oh, also most sources I find put the population of Constantinople at the time at just 30,000 people, only a little around 5,000 of them men of fighting age.

Also Constantine Palaeologos stayed and fought even when the walls came down, despite the fact he could have escaped. A number of his senior officers remained with him.

Again, start another post about this topic if you like, let's not get sidetracked.



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Posted By: Komnenos
Date Posted: 30-Jun-2005 at 06:07
Originally posted by Constantine XI

I am with Belisarius on this one. Let's not turn this into another Byzantine dominated post, but I honestly can't help but admire 1453. Had the Byzantines fought with such courage in the previous few centuries they no doubt would have continued as a viable nation.



Don't get me wrong here.
I don't want to take anything away from the heroic and desperate defense of Constantinople in 1453 and the dignified end of the last Byzantine Emperor, I just wanted to point out that such bravery was not such an unique event.
The last stand of the Cathars comes to mind, the siege of Montsegur in 1244, were 150 soldiers and a few hundred women and children defied the French Royal Army of more than 6000 for over 9 months, and where most of Cathars rather choose death on the stake than renouncing their faith.
On a much smaller scale, maybe, but not less brave.

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[IMG]http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i137/komnenos/crosses1.jpg">


Posted By: Jalisco Lancer
Date Posted: 30-Jun-2005 at 12:38


I do believe that self sacrifice is the ultimate probe of bravery. However, when conducted to inflict damage on unarmed civilians lacks entirely of bravery and it is replaced by fanatism and madness.

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Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 30-Jun-2005 at 13:02
Originally posted by iskenderani

Originally posted by Temujin

Originally posted by iskenderani

The ultimate heroic act is only one : The sacrifice , when there is nothing to hope for.

like suicide bombers?

Yes...i believe that the kamikaze were a brave lot of people , believing in their country and dying a heroic death...

They sacrificed willingly...

Isk..

 

More or less I'd say. About 40% were pretty much coaxed into the suicide missions by their commanders. They believed that they would be outcasts if they didn't accept. Even so flying your plane through bullets and flak and ultimately crashing into a ship is admirable.

Anyway I think thermopylae was one of the bravest.



Posted By: aknc
Date Posted: 30-Jun-2005 at 14:01

Originally posted by Belisarius

Originally posted by Komnenos

Before all we ex-Byzantine emperors get carried away, I would like to point out that Constantinople in 1453 is only example under many of a medieval city defending itself bravely against an overwhelming besieging force. There were thousands of others towns who fought with the same desperation and heroism against the inevitable.
Constantinople might have been the historically most significant,but that doesn't make it automatically the bravest.


Forgive me, basileus, but I must disagree. The defense of Constantinople is one of the more heroic acts, even when compared with other similar situations.

First of all, there is the patriotic acts of Constantine Paleologus. Mehmed gave him the chance to rule unthreatened in Mystras, but he refused, choosing to die defending his people.

As for the overwhelming besieging force, the defenders of Constantinople were outnumbered more than 14 to 1, and of that small number, very few were actually soldiers. Against them was the one of the most best,  state-of-the-art armies of the time. Among the more than 100,000 Ottomans were 20,000 Janissaries, arguably the most elite military orders of the time. In addition to this was the fleet the blockaded the city. At the time, the population of Constantinople was about 50,000, meaning that the invading force outnumbered even the city's entire population. Despite all this, they managed to hold out for a month.

What sets this apart from other similar situations was that the situation was truly hopeless and yet they fought on. In those other situations, the Alamo or Wake Island for example, there was always the chance that if they held out long enough, a relief force would come or there would be at least hope that a relief force would come. In the Siege of Constantinople, they knew no such help would come.

You know, I have always wished I could go back in time and incite the European and Janissary divisions to defect. Or that I could go forward in time and then go back and wipe out the Ottomans with futuristic weapons. Hehe....

being outnumbered is not bravery

And the emperors choice was very stupid,not brave



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"I am the scourage of god appointed to chastise you,since no one knows the remedy for your iniquity exept me.You are wicked,but I am more wicked than you,so be silent!"
              


Posted By: Jorsalfar
Date Posted: 30-Jun-2005 at 14:17
If you attack an army that is larger than yours you are brave (but in some cases maybe stupid).Also if you choose to defend against one.


Posted By: Murtaza
Date Posted: 30-Jun-2005 at 14:21

Istanbul is best defended castle of that times, and 1/14 is not so much bad position for best defended castle. They fight brave, but bravest?

because you love greek culture, this does not mean this is most brave defance.

As I said, there were albanians who fight better than greeks. Because Istanbul have a big impact, It does not make defence otomatically bravest.

 

 

 

 



Posted By: Jorsalfar
Date Posted: 30-Jun-2005 at 14:29

In case the post above was meant for me

i do not think the Constantinople defence was the most brave act in history.I think there is a lot of brave acts in history just as brave as that defence.

What i wanted to say was that i think that if you face an army that is larger than yours you are brave ( or maybe in some cases stupid ).



Posted By: aknc
Date Posted: 30-Jun-2005 at 15:37
Originally posted by Murtaza

because you love greek culture, this does not mean this is most brave defance.

Don't personalise your posts/attacks in a history discussion



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"I am the scourage of god appointed to chastise you,since no one knows the remedy for your iniquity exept me.You are wicked,but I am more wicked than you,so be silent!"
              


Posted By: Murtaza
Date Posted: 30-Jun-2005 at 15:48

You know, I have always wished I could go back in time and incite the European and Janissary divisions to defect. Or that I could go forward in time and then go back and wipe out the Ottomans with futuristic weapons. Hehe....

I dont personalise my post, this is only what he showed.And I dont think anyone insulted because I said them you love Greek culture. This is not an insult

 

 



Posted By: Jorsalfar
Date Posted: 30-Jun-2005 at 15:58

I never said i loved Greek culture. (although i have got nothing against it )



Posted By: Murtaza
Date Posted: 30-Jun-2005 at 16:00

Jorsalfar

what I said is not to you. I support what you said. They were brave. But bravest?

 

 



Posted By: Jorsalfar
Date Posted: 30-Jun-2005 at 16:06

Ok i see.

 



Posted By: Belisarius
Date Posted: 30-Jun-2005 at 23:56
Jesus of Nazareth, what have we started...

Originally posted by aknc

being outnumbered is not bravery

And the emperors choice was very stupid,not brave



Your opinion is noted, as much as I disagree with you. Being outnumbered is not bravery, it is when you face impossible odds without surrender that you are brave.

There is a very thin and blurry line between bravery and stupidity. I believe the famous Hollywood quote goes as follows: "He is either very brave, or very stupid".

What I said was that the defense of Constantinople was one of the bravest, not the bravest of all time.


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Posted By: Murtaza
Date Posted: 01-Jul-2005 at 02:10

By the way, You are thinking wrong.

Emperor had to chance for protecting his city. That war were not easy for Turks. Even one time, they almost retreated. But A Islamic leader and teacher of the Muhammet the conquerer, changed this decision.

He was brave but not for refusing surrender. For his charge to jenisaries.

 

 

 

 

 



Posted By: human
Date Posted: 01-Jul-2005 at 05:00

The battle of Thermopylae with big difference.

The oracle said : Greece will fall or a Spartan king will die.

Leonidas choose the second. After 600 yrs a Spartan king died in the battlefield. He gave time to the rest Greeks to prepaire. Leonidas said to the Greeks (200 Spartans and 300 Thespieis) : Fight with me and your names will be written in history. The world will be talking about you after 1000,2000 and 3000 years. With his action he gave courage to Athinians to defend against Persian navy in battle of Salamina and win. Dont forget that again the Persian navy was much bigger than the Greek. One year later we had the battle of Plataies. Again Persians were outnumbered but when they saw 3000 shields with the letter 'L' (Greek Lamda Lakedaimon Spartans) they started shaking. They were not able to kill 300 Spartans a year ago. How can now kill 3000 of them. Of course they lost again. The historian of the Persian king wrote that there was not army under the sky that could have won the Greeks that day.

Does anyone know how Leonidas choose his 300 men??? He choose the ones that their families were strong to survive after their death. Mothers and wifes that they wouldnt cry after the lost of their sons and husbands so they shall pass the message to the Greeks that Spartans are strong and the rest follow the example. He did not choose the 300 braviest.

One Spartan returned from Thermopylae after Leonidas told him to leave because he had a problem with his eyes and almost couldnt see anything. When he got back he lost all his rights as a Spartan and marked as a retrieter. In the battle of Plataies he killed the most Persians of all and again he was not honoured because they believed he retrieted in Thermopylae. 

They did not die to defend. THEY DIED TO GIVE THE EXAMPLE FOR THE NEXT 100.000.000.000.000 YEARS TO ALL NATIONS. Just the example....



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You Got to Lose to Know How to Win...


Posted By: sovietsniper
Date Posted: 01-Jul-2005 at 09:35

lenningrad must be up there somewhere. It had a large impact on the war(pinned down army group nourth) and demmanded hugh will and bravry from many soviet troops.

But on a smaller scale wittmans rampage though a battalion of the britsh deasert rats after d-day was brave and helped stop the push to cann.



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victory to russia


Posted By: aknc
Date Posted: 01-Jul-2005 at 09:53
Originally posted by Murtaza

 This is not an insult

Insult?In which post did i say that you inmsulted that person?I merely said that you should not personalise your posts



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"I am the scourage of god appointed to chastise you,since no one knows the remedy for your iniquity exept me.You are wicked,but I am more wicked than you,so be silent!"
              


Posted By: aknc
Date Posted: 01-Jul-2005 at 09:59
Originally posted by Belisarius

Jesus of Nazareth, what have we started...

Originally posted by aknc

being outnumbered is not bravery

And the emperors choice was very stupid,not brave



 it is when you face impossible odds without surrender that you are brave.

logically,i think you are wrong.BEcause if the Emperor thought he was fighting against impossible odds,he would have known that in the end,his city would be looted and it's citizens killed.NOw he wouldn't have accepted that.

HE thought that help was coming from europe and that he could withstand the ottoman army.He didn't even take the surrender offer before the all out assault.I think that is being stupid rather than brave



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"I am the scourage of god appointed to chastise you,since no one knows the remedy for your iniquity exept me.You are wicked,but I am more wicked than you,so be silent!"
              


Posted By: Yiannis
Date Posted: 01-Jul-2005 at 10:14

I think that sometimes some people rate other values more than life itself.

Some call this bravery, others stupidity.



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The basis of a democratic state is liberty. Aristotle, Politics

Those that can give up essential liberty to obtain a temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. Benjamin Franklin


Posted By: aknc
Date Posted: 01-Jul-2005 at 11:42

I am not talking about life,i amtalking about the massackre and the enslavement of an entire population

the emperor took his chances on that,and i call that stupid



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"I am the scourage of god appointed to chastise you,since no one knows the remedy for your iniquity exept me.You are wicked,but I am more wicked than you,so be silent!"
              


Posted By: Murtaza
Date Posted: 01-Jul-2005 at 11:50

Aknc will you give your city without fight Even If you had 1% chance?

 

 



Posted By: Spartakus
Date Posted: 01-Jul-2005 at 11:51

Sometimes spiritual freedom is far more important than material freedom.The emperor chose to fight for his spiritual freedom,troops chose to fight for their spiritual freedom,and that i call it bravery.



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"There are worse crimes than burning books. One of them is not reading them. "
--- Joseph Alexandrovitch Brodsky, 1991, Russian-American poet, b. St. Petersburg and exiled 1972 (1940-1996)


Posted By: aknc
Date Posted: 01-Jul-2005 at 12:01
Originally posted by Murtaza

Aknc will you give your city without fight Even If you had 1% chance?

 

 

as the emperor my duty would be to take care of my citizens,and i will hold it before my crown and empire.The ottoman rule is far better than that,besides,don't think the whole fight was stupid.I think that the emperor not taking the suurender offer before the all out assault that made the city fall is stupid.HE had been fighting for three months and he knew that there wasn't even a  0.000000000000000001 chance.



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"I am the scourage of god appointed to chastise you,since no one knows the remedy for your iniquity exept me.You are wicked,but I am more wicked than you,so be silent!"
              


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 01-Jul-2005 at 12:05
That is not true at all timur. Are you stupid or something?!? Really that is thick! Get a life!


Posted By: Murtaza
Date Posted: 01-Jul-2005 at 12:06

Well not excatly people always forget, that castle is best defended castle at that times. They have always some chance. That is reason why I dont think they were most brave people. They had best castle.

But Emperor is a brave man, whatever Its cause.

I dont think he cared for Byzantium culture much, but he cared for his city, his crown, his people.(crown and people can be same) And He fight bravely.

Infact It would be realy disgusting, If he didnt fight until to last. He was the one of best enemy.

 



Posted By: iskenderani
Date Posted: 03-Jul-2005 at 03:21

Temujin wrote :


suicide attacks or making last stands is never heroic just plain stupid. runnign toward an enemy trench udner full enemy fire, throwing a grenade in and making it back to the own trench is bravery; taking a bunch of grenades, wrapping them aroud the body and suicide jump into the other trench is stuipd.
making a last stand against a favourable enemy against all odds is stupid, the enemy will move on and take what he wants anyways; under the same situation retreat and try to defeat him in small prologned skirmishes or to lure him into a prepared ambush and to ultimately defeat him this way is the way of sucess. if anybody has doubts about what i said just look at WW2 and see how well the fight to the last man doctrine worked for Germans and Japansese...or the Greeks at Thermopylae for that matter...

Well Temujin. you can call it what u like , but in here u talk about strategy and not bravery.Take for example Stalingrad .... according to your opinion , the Russians would have given the city to the Nazis cause they were outnumbered....Lenningrad too , would have surrendered to the Germans , since they were outnumbered...In WW2 the war from the German part was conducted by Hitler and NOT by his generals. I am pretty sure that IF the war was conducted more profecionally than politicaly , it would have been much more difficult for the allies to win it.
And Temujin... read about the Hungarian uprising in 1956 , against the communists. There were young people who took a bunch of grenades wrapped them around their body and jumped under Soviet tanks .... u consider them stupid too , because the Soviets were too strong to be opposed ?? Keep in mind that in Hungary , ChechoSlovakia , Polad ...everywhere there was an uprising against the Soviets , there was NEVER a partizan fighting as u suggest that they ought to do.
In the case of sacrifice , like in Thermopylae , or Konstantinopolis , there is more than a simple desperate fight. They both have a political meaning , and above all , they are calculated to the point.Leonidas knows about the oracle ....he also knows that he must buy time for the rest of the Greeks . He also knows that his death will increase the feeling of revenge that the Greeks will feel towards Persians...
Same thing goes for Konstantine Paleologos. He knows that he can not defend the City with his little army....IF he gives the City , and retreats to Mystras , it would be a matter of time for the Turks to attack him there...He has no lands , and no people to join his army , in case he wants to keep fighting the Turks. He also will be another one of the many unworthy emperors , and noboby will trust him as a leader...On the other hand , he knows the Turkish ways ... he knows the milliet tactics of theirs , so he advertises that the priests are saying : better the muslims than the Catholics....This is why he does not call for a general fight ...this is why he fights with almost 5000 Greeks and the 700 knights of Justiniani , leaving the people to gather to the churches...He knows that there will be loot and slaughter , but the Turks will not put all of them to the sword. And his personal death will be a reason for the Greeks to keep fighting...This is why Greeks were never the loyal subjects of Turks ... in 368 years of enslavement 93 small or big uprises will occur , almost one in every 4 years. As a matter of fact , there was never a period of more that 40 years of not fighting between Greeks and the Turks.

So , a last stand sometimes is required IF its sure outcome , will give a meaning for those who will come next.This kind of sacrifice , is never a final point . It is always a step upon which others will stand to keep the fight.
 
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Komnenos wrote :

 Before all we ex-Byzantine emperors get carried away, I would like to point out that Constantinople in 1453 is only example under many of a medieval city defending itself bravely against an overwhelming besieging force. There were thousands of others towns who fought with the same desperation and heroism against the inevitable.
Constantinople might have been the historically most significant,but that doesn't make it automatically the bravest.

Of course...There will NEVER be "the bravest act"...It is always the bravest act at the PRESENT MOMENT of TIME...

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charles brough  wrote :

The discussion has reached an important question.  Is the act of a suicide bomber a "heroic act?"  I don't think there is any question that it takes a lot of "guts".  It takes bravery, but is it "heroic" to take your life murdering other and helpless civilians? 

There is no question that Fundamentalist Islam is the underdog and has had to seek other ways of defending its identity, but even so, it is a new low in the history of warefare for our and Islamic civilization.  We are all aware of a time in our history when armies marched against each other.  Now we fly over them and gleefully rain death and destruction on them.  We fire missiles at them from beyond the horizon or from under the ocean.  We assasinate important people, float counterfit money, use depleated uranium and stock atomic bombs.  Yet, the deliberate killing of civilians in restaurants and busses is a new low.

The important thing about it is that it works.  It is a successful strategy.  It caused Spain and the Philappines to take their troops out of Iraq.  It aggrivated us into invading Islam and, hence, drive more young Muslim men into terrorism.  It works.  They attack us and we attack them so that we increase their numbers.  It is called "a retaliatory partnership" and we learned it from israel.  It will succeed in getting Bush re-elected because Iran is next.

charles

Well said Charles. In this point i would like to point out that i , for myself ,examine brave acts that happen in warfare. What you describe above , is not bravery in war , it is terrorism and i think it belongs to another topic.You are right to say that war has lost its glory , cause of technology , but u must take into consideration that even today , the foot soldier is atill required to march to the land which has been bombed and to keep it. That is until in the future ( far or near ) , these foot soldiers will be manufactured in a lab.

As for terrorism , its NOT working exactly ...it is NOT dealt the right way...

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Jalisco Lancer  wrote :


I do believe that self sacrifice is the ultimate probe of bravery. However, when conducted to inflict damage on unarmed civilians lacks entirely of bravery and it is replaced by fanatism and madness.

Completely agreed Mr.Lancer..Though i have to remind you that Santa Anna , didn't think that Alamo will have so great a psychological effect to the Americans , to make them use the battle cry :" Remember the Alamo "....

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Jorsalfar wrote :

   
If you attack an army that is larger than yours you are brave (but in some cases maybe stupid).Also if you choose to defend against one.

i do not think the Constantinople defence was the most brave act in history.I think there is a lot of brave acts in history just as brave as that defence.

What i wanted to say was that i think that if you face an army that is larger than yours you are brave ( or maybe in some cases stupid ).

Not exactly Jors.. There are always exceptions and what u say its rather tactics than actual war.
Of course the Konstantinopolis defence is NOT the bravest act in history. Thermopylae , was the bravest act , at the time it was done.... So it was the Konstantinopolis defence , so was Lenningrad , so was Stalingrad....each at his own time.
When u face an enemy larger than yours is stupid but brave to stand against it ?? So Englad who withstood Hitler's bombing , was brave , but stupid ?? So the Greeks against the Italians , were brave but stupid ?? The same , against the Germans ?? The Serbians against the Germans ?? The Israelis in 1967 ?? and in 1973 ?? ... I dont think so ....War is NOT numbers and equipment always , its a lot of other qualitiies too.

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This was just a summary , of the most interesting opinions , IMO , that i read here.

Isk..



Posted By: Temujin
Date Posted: 03-Jul-2005 at 14:35
Originally posted by iskenderani

Well Temujin. you can call it what u like , but in here u talk about strategy and not bravery.Take for example Stalingrad .... according to your opinion , the Russians would have given the city to the Nazis cause they were outnumbered....Lenningrad too , would have surrendered to the Germans , since they were outnumbered...In WW2 the war from the German part was conducted by Hitler and NOT by his generals. I am pretty sure that IF the war was conducted more profecionally than politicaly , it would have been much more difficult for the allies to win it.
And Temujin... read about the Hungarian uprising in 1956 , against the communists. There were young people who took a bunch of grenades wrapped them around their body and jumped under Soviet tanks .... u consider them stupid too , because the Soviets were too strong to be opposed ?? Keep in mind that in Hungary , ChechoSlovakia , Polad ...everywhere there was an uprising against the Soviets , there was NEVER a partizan fighting as u suggest that they ought to do.
In the case of sacrifice , like in Thermopylae , or Konstantinopolis , there is more than a simple desperate fight. They both have a political meaning , and above all , they are calculated to the point.Leonidas knows about the oracle ....he also knows that he must buy time for the rest of the Greeks . He also knows that his death will increase the feeling of revenge that the Greeks will feel towards Persians...
Same thing goes for Konstantine Paleologos. He knows that he can not defend the City with his little army....IF he gives the City , and retreats to Mystras , it would be a matter of time for the Turks to attack him there...He has no lands , and no people to join his army , in case he wants to keep fighting the Turks. He also will be another one of the many unworthy emperors , and noboby will trust him as a leader...On the other hand , he knows the Turkish ways ... he knows the milliet tactics of theirs , so he advertises that the priests are saying : better the muslims than the Catholics....This is why he does not call for a general fight ...this is why he fights with almost 5000 Greeks and the 700 knights of Justiniani , leaving the people to gather to the churches...He knows that there will be loot and slaughter , but the Turks will not put all of them to the sword. And his personal death will be a reason for the Greeks to keep fighting...This is why Greeks were never the loyal subjects of Turks ... in 368 years of enslavement 93 small or big uprises will occur , almost one in every 4 years. As a matter of fact , there was never a period of more that 40 years of not fighting between Greeks and the Turks.

So , a last stand sometimes is required IF its sure outcome , will give a meaning for those who will come next.This kind of sacrifice , is never a final point . It is always a step upon which others will stand to keep the fight.
 

Isk, what you've described were not last stands, like the uprisings, uprisings are like small skirmishes to weaken the occupying force, in this case Greeks are attackers and Ottomans defenders. and Leningrad was one of the two biggest Russian cities, they could not have surrenderd that easily... but look at Stalingrad, Stalingrad was German held, not Russian held, in the end Germans were surrounded and caught in a pocket because they had the order to make a last stand, in the end they starved to death. not really glorious, eh? furthermore Thermopylae, you said they had to buy time...for whom? the other Greeks that fled the Thermopylae position and let Spartans and Thespians alone? where were they? where was the Greek army the Spartans were supposed to buy time for? did they prevent the sacking of Athens? no they did not, and Greeks only rallied against the occupants left at Paltaea when the main Persian army has already left Greece...thats not heroic...Leonidas and the other Greeks died for nothing at all, thats all the heroism Themopylae was about. Constantinople is similar to WW2 again, Constantinople was left alone, surrounded by the Turks and the emperor and his few troops had no other chance but to die an unglorious death by the hands of a superior force that came out of the nothing and brought the end of a century old empire. with their backs against the wall, they had no other choice.



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Posted By: Jorsalfar
Date Posted: 03-Jul-2005 at 15:23

Iskenderani

I did not mean that facing an army that is bigger than yours is brave and stupid at the same time.I meant that in some cases it can be stupid for example if you underestimate the enemy.



Posted By: Yiannis
Date Posted: 04-Jul-2005 at 05:28

Originally posted by Temujin

Constantinople is similar to WW2 again, Constantinople was left alone, surrounded by the Turks and the emperor and his few troops had no other chance but to die an inglorious death by the hands of a superior force that came out of the nothing and brought the end of a century old empire. with their backs against the wall, they had no other choice.

Way wrong!

Ottomans were building their army and positions in the open (they even build forts and sieged the last surrounding free smal cities) and the Byzantines had plenty of time to scavenge around for provisions & mercenaries. With their limited finances they couldn't get any!

The emperor Constantine Paleologous rejected the Sultan's proposal for an honorary surrender.

These're elementary facts!



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The basis of a democratic state is liberty. Aristotle, Politics

Those that can give up essential liberty to obtain a temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. Benjamin Franklin


Posted By: Murtaza
Date Posted: 04-Jul-2005 at 07:37

Yes, Ottomans made their preperation realy fine. Istanbul had chance against the Ottomans. It is not a stupidy act to refuse Proposal. Ottomans didnt take that city so cheap and easy

 

 

 



Posted By: Jalisco Lancer
Date Posted: 04-Jul-2005 at 11:29

Hi Iskendari:

Jalisco Lancer wrote : Quote:

I do believe that self sacrifice is the ultimate probe of bravery. However, when conducted to inflict damage on unarmed civilians lacks entirely of bravery and it is replaced by fanatism and madness.




Completely agreed Mr.Lancer..Though i have to remind you that Santa Anna , didn't think that Alamo will have so great a psychological effect to the Americans , to make them use the battle cry :" Remember the Alamo "....



Santa Anna issued a decree on December 1835 when the texican rebels took the Alamo. The Decree specified that any foreigner captured would be executed.

At his arrival to El Alamo, Santa Anna raised the Scarlett Flag and the army played Toque a Dequello.
Toque A Dequello was taken from the spaniards and they took it from the moorish.

However, at least Santa Anna allowed the evacuation of children and women. El Alamo has some interesting aspects that could help us to understand the final outcome.

First of All, El Alamo was not a battle of a single assault.
The siege took 13 days. Santa Anna ordered the bombardment of El Alamo whilst he gathered enough forces to storm the Mission.

When Santa Anna requested the surrender of the mission, Travis answered with cannon fire.

During the assault to the mission, a part of the texicans surrended raising white flags while others opened fire.That really angered to the mexican soldiers.

At the end, only 2 black slaves were spared by considering them as no combatants.

I'm not trying to justify to Santa Anna. He was unmerciful on victory, but the Texicans pushed to a intolerant murder as Santa Anna.

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Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 04-Jul-2005 at 13:17

The defending of Istanbul (ex Constantinopole) was brave, but it was the last chance, and not kind of a bravest act.

The bravest act for my country was the Battle of Gallipoli. The bravest act for my nation was the whole Turkish War of Independence.

I am not sure about the bravest act of the history of humanity, but I think the resistance of Native Northern Americans against European colonists, the resistance of Zulu against British, the war of William Wallace against British were some bravest ones I can remember now. And the battle of Thermophylae was also one of them.

Altough I dont like Enver Pasha, his acts were some of the bravest in history. He entered Russia three times illegally, he fought and died with the Uzbeg rebel forces against Russians. He died for Turan, but I still dont appreciate him.



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Posted By: Temujin
Date Posted: 04-Jul-2005 at 14:54
Originally posted by Yiannis

Way wrong!

Ottomans were building their army and positions in the open (they even build forts and sieged the last surrounding free smal cities) and the Byzantines had plenty of time to scavenge around for provisions & mercenaries. With their limited finances they couldn't get any!

The emperor Constantine Paleologous rejected the Sultan's proposal for an honorary surrender.

These're elementary facts!

well in this case he was really stupid then...



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Posted By: Raider
Date Posted: 14-Jul-2005 at 03:33

 

In 1241 after the battle of Muhi the Hungarian king Bla IV. fled to the west chased by mongol cavalry.

The king 's life was in danger many times, but once they were pulled up by the mongol warriors. Then one man from the royal retinue stopped to delay then. The king managed to escape, but his man alone faced with the whole enemy band. I think the fact that he managed to survive is the most incredible in this whole story. Later this man, Ernye kos became a baron of the kingdom (voivod of Transylvania, ban of Ozora, royal marshal) and his family became a powerful baronical family by the thankful king. I think it is an amazing story.

King Bla flees from the battle of Muhi from the Chronica de gestis Hungarorum (or Chronicon Pictum):



Posted By: Menippos
Date Posted: 14-Jul-2005 at 04:19
Originally posted by Temujin

Originally posted by Yiannis

But I wonder what has happened to the poor German guard who was on duty that night

 

prolly he had to do the dirty laundry of his officers...


...in the Russian front.


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CARRY NOTHING


Posted By: TheodoreFelix
Date Posted: 17-Jul-2005 at 12:55

Singing and dancing , one by one they jump over the cliff with their children in their arms , choosing death , than slavery in the TurkAlbanian hands...

heh, this is sort of similar to a story in Alb tradition.

On the Subject of Ali Pasha, here is an  http://www.operagreca.com/opera_background_plot.pdf - interesting play   about his special kind of cruelty.

When the Turks finally conquered Shkoder then started heading through Rozaffa castle. I dont remember the details of the character but she ran with her child to escape the Turks, when  this was no longer an option, she jumped and took her child with her.

I think it was Rozaffa Castle, man I havnt heard this story in a long time....

Anyway, the stand at Ulqin is quite memorable for me. It marks one of the first time Albanian catholics and muslims united against a common cause since 200 years earlier when they planed together a revolt against the Ottomans. As the Ottoman Empire was dying, the Serbs began chipping away at the northern lands. The Ottomans then prepared to give off northern Albania to the Montenegrins. Whne the Albs heard of what was going to happen they revolted and killed the pasha who came from Constantinople to give the land off and any Turk with him. Finally the Serbs had enough and they started attacking. One of these cities was Ulqin, in todays Montenegro (still has an 85% Alb populus). The Serbs began surrounding the city full of modern artillery and other Russian gives. they had an army over 10X larger then the Alb one. Attack after attack they could not break through the defenses, and their attacks were pinned back by the Albs(who were mostly citizen conscripts with dated or weak rifles). The Serbs continued for 30 days and still no success. Finally they went to the western powers for help. They sent in ships which blockaded and attacked the city. Finally the Serbs gained an upper hand and overran the city and began disarming the populus, a last offensive was made by the remaining Alba soldiers before they died and the city fell.

A similar even would occur in their siege of Shkoder. In total the Serbs lost about 15,000 soldiers. But caused the deaths of thousands as they moved from Shkoder down to Durres.



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Posted By: voyadores
Date Posted: 17-Jul-2005 at 17:58

for me the Philippine and American defense of Corregidor and Bataan.

 



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"When Alexander saw the breadth of his domain, he wept for there were no more worlds to conquer."


Posted By: Standard-bearer
Date Posted: 20-Jul-2005 at 04:12
I suppose that on of the bravest act in history can be charge at Samosierra -30 XI 1808. That day 140 uhlans (from 3rd squadron's regiment) had to conquer defile, which was defended by 16 field-guns and several thousand soldiers. What couldn't have done Napoleon's Army, polish soldiers procured spanish positions by daring charge. This event went on only few minutes.


Posted By: Vamun Tianshu
Date Posted: 20-Jul-2005 at 04:25

There is no right or wrong answer,because Heroism can be interpretated in many ways and ideals,there is no true bravery.



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In Honor


Posted By: Ionian
Date Posted: 21-Jul-2005 at 09:51
 right!
Originally posted by Murtaza

And I dont think It is a survival war, Greeks at the Istanbul prefered Ottomans over latins. Even At third crusaders, Greeks dont help crusaders agains Turk.

So I think they dont afraid so much from the Ottomans. They afraid from latins more and more.

 

 

 

 



Posted By: ArmenianSurvival
Date Posted: 23-Jul-2005 at 06:15

Im not going to say my nations bravery is above anyone else's. Having said that, i would like to mention the battle of Avarayr in 451 A.D.

In the years leading up to the battle, the Zoroastrian Sassanid Empire had been trying to get Armenia to relinquish Christianity and accept Zoroastrianism as the national religion. Being part of the Sassanid Empire, many Armenians wanted to agree and convert, because a war with Persia was basically suicidal. They had some meetings with Persia, but they were stalemates. The Sassanids sent Maji (Zoroastrian priests) with very small armies to Armenia to convert the population. An Armenian priest named Ghevont organized revolts and drove the Maji out of Armenia, killing many of them.

The Persian King Yazdegird II gave the Armenians one last chance and asked them to accept Zoroastrianism. The Armenian general, Vartan Mamikonian, met with high ranking Persian officials and gave this response:

"From this faith no one can move us-neither angels nor men; neither sword, nor fire, nor water, nor any deadly punishment. If you leave us our faith, we will accept no other lord in place of you; but we will accept no God in place of Jesus Christ; there is no other God beside Him. If, after this great confession, you ask anything more of us, lo, we are before you and our lives are in your power. From you, torments; from us, submission; your sword, our neck. We are not better than those who have gone before us who gave up their goods and their lives for this testimony."

It was quite obvious that the Persians were being shown resistence. Knowing a war was about to ensue, Vartan mustered up as many men as he could from those who were willing to defend Armenian culture. The Armenians mustered 66,000 men, while the Persians invaded with a force of over 220,000 men, backed up by sqaudrons of armored elephants. On June 2, 451, Vartan Mamikonian died in the fields of Avarayr (present-day northern Iran) during the battle. With the loss of their general and the overwhelming number of Persians, the Armenians retreated for the day, losing the battle. The Armenians lost just over 1,000 men, while the Persians lost nearly 6,000. It was, however, a moral victory for Armenians, who gained a memory of martyrdom for their culture. The battle was lost, but the war was far from over. A 33-year guerilla war ensued, with Armenians from all over harassing and attacking the Persian army over and over again, until, the Persians had simply had enough and left the Armenians alone, surrendering.

The resistance offered by the Armeniansmen, women, and childrenconvinced the king of Persia that he could never make fire worshipers out of the Armenians. As an old historian expressed it: "The swords of the slayers grew dull, but their necks were not weary. Even the high priest of Zoroastrianism saw that the Persians had undertaken an impossibility, and thus advised the king: "These people have put on Christianity, not like a garment, but like their flesh and blood. Men who do not dread fetters, nor fear torments, nor care for their property, and, what is worst of all, who choose death rather than life,-who can stand against them?"

After they retreated in 484 A.D., the Persians signed a treaty granting the Armenians freedom of worship within their empire.

The battle of Avarayr is the first ever armed defense of Christianity in history. More importantly, it prevented Armenia from being assimilated, and to this day Armenia remains the world's first Christian nation. I am not a Christian, but it was an important event for the cause of keeping alive Armenian identity.

Just one of the stories in Armenian history. Ive enjoyed reading about the other brave acts, keep posting them!



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Mass Murderers Agree: Gun Control Works!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Van_Resistance

Քիչ ենք բայց Հայ ենք։


Posted By: Beowulf
Date Posted: 15-Dec-2005 at 17:42

The bravest act in Serbian history was certainly facing the Turks who outnumbered us greatly. That was in Kosovo 1389, on June 28th. There were aproximatly 10 times more Turks then Serbs (and some Hungarians, a few crusaders and others).

AS HOMER SAID: IT'S BETTER TO DIE A HEROIC DEATH THEN TO LIVE AS A COWARD.



Posted By: cg rommel
Date Posted: 16-Dec-2005 at 10:17
Originally posted by Richard XIII

Battle of Thermopylae




i agree.....


Posted By: dirtnap
Date Posted: 16-Dec-2005 at 19:25
Not all brave acts are great military campaigns... This was one of the bravest moments in recent memory...





Posted By: ArmenianSurvival
Date Posted: 16-Dec-2005 at 19:33
Originally posted by dirtnap

Not all brave acts are great military campaigns


I agree. How about the Buddhist monks that set themselves on fire to protest the Vietnam government's anti-Buddhist policies:



While he was burning alive, he did nothing but sit there in quiet meditation. The power of the mind is amazing.


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Mass Murderers Agree: Gun Control Works!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Van_Resistance

Քիչ ենք բայց Հայ ենք։


Posted By: Heraclius
Date Posted: 16-Dec-2005 at 19:45
 As much as I admire the mans ability to remain seated and not scream like mad, I cant respect the fact he's set himself on fire, there are surely better ways to get a point across than suicide by burning. Thats just stupidity.

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A tomb now suffices him for whom the world was not enough.


Posted By: Sarmata
Date Posted: 16-Dec-2005 at 21:25
The Polish armies of; Somosierra(1808), 1830 Uprising, 1863 Uprising, Westerplatte(1939), Monte Cassino(1944).


Posted By: Ahmed The Fighter
Date Posted: 17-Dec-2005 at 03:48
 Battle of Karbala in Iraq  680 A.D,between Husien(grandson of Muhammed) with 72 men against a massive Umayyad army 30,000 men  under Omer Bin Sa'ad Bin Abi Waqas.

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"May the eyes of cowards never sleep"
Khalid Bin Walid


Posted By: Mosquito
Date Posted: 25-Dec-2005 at 21:04

I got one incredible act of bravery. In 1800 at the battle of Hohenlinden single polish uhlan, private Trandowski of 6th Company was promissed a bottle of good wine if he brings a prisoner. So he set at the gallop and "snatched" the Prince Lichtenstein who stood in front of Austrian troops. Austrians were shooting as Trandowski was coming but after he captured the prince they were afraid to shoot because could kill the prince 

 



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"I am a pure-blooded Polish nobleman, without a single drop of bad blood, certainly not German blood" - Friedrich Nietzsche


Posted By: Sarmata
Date Posted: 27-Dec-2005 at 15:55
LOL I acctually never heard of that story.


Posted By: timurshah
Date Posted: 01-Jan-2006 at 06:51

 i think you all should read the Gallipoli war in WW1...



Posted By: Jhangora
Date Posted: 01-Jan-2006 at 09:44

JASWANT GARH, India, Nov 7, 2002 - Forty years after his death, an Indian army rifleman has been promoted to major general' and is still believed to command' troops guarding the dizzy heights of India's eastern frontiers with China.

Rifleman Jaswant Singh Rawat of the Fourth Garhwal Rifles infantry regiment is the only soldier in the long history of the Indian army who is known to have risen through the ranks after his death.

Rawat remained at his post at an altitude of about 10,000 feet (3,000 meters) and held back advancing Chinese troops for three days single-handedly before succumbing to an enemy bullet during the bloody winter war with China in 1962 along the northeastern state of Arunachal Pradesh.

The rifleman may have died, but his heroics have not gone unrecognised -- Rawat gets an unofficial promotion at regular intervals, with his rank today being that of a major general.

The post that he held to repulse the Chinese troops has been renamed Jaswant Garh in recognition of his courage.

Rawat's act of bravado has earned him a distinct place among all ranks of the federal army manning the unfenced 1,030 kilometer (650 mile) Sino-Indian border -- for many he is like a guardian angel protecting the frontiers.

Myth, folklore, and superstitious beliefs are so strong among the soldiers that the battle site was converted into a Hindu temple with troops now giving Rawat the status of Baba' or saint.

"Army personnel passing by this route, be it a general or an ordinary soldier, make it a point to pay their respects at the shrine of Jaswant Singh or else they invoke his curse," said footsoldier Ram Narayan Singh.

"A major general once refused to pray at his shrine while crossing the area, saying this was just a superstition, but he met with a mysterious road accident a few kilometers away from here and died."

The Garhwal Rifles are today deployed on India's western borders, but the unit makes it a point to keep at least half-a-dozen personnel here to take care of Rawat as if he were alive.

"For us he is immortal and continues to protect and bless us in this treacherous mountain terrain," said a Garhwal Rifles soldier posted at Rawat's shrine.

He has an orderly who cooks for him daily, makes his bed, irons his clothes and polishes his boots, while guards patrol his shrine around the clock.

"Each morning his bed is found crumpled and his freshly ironed clothes lie crushed on the floor," another soldier said. "He is here all the time although we cannot see him."

According to locals and soldiers posted near Jaswant Garh, Rawat's spirit roams the area and he comes to their dreams and solves their woes and miseries.

"The respect that Rawat commands even after his death is something very rare in the Indian army," Major Jaideep Ghosh told AFP.

"I have never seen anything like this before anywhere of a martyred soldier still influencing the lives of the troops."

Legend has it that the Chinese troops after killing Rawat beheaded him and carried his torso as a trophy after he had stood alone against them, firing from a .303 rifle.

After the ceasefire, the Chinese commander, impressed by Rawat's bravery, returned the head along with a brass bust of the gallant soldier. The bust is now installed at the site of the battle.

"A nation that does not honour its dead warriors will perish," an army commander remarked as soldiers lit earthen lamps at nightfall to keep Rawat's memories alive.

                             By AFP/Zarir Hussain

http://www.thingsasian.com/goto_article/article.1878.html - http://www.thingsasian.com/goto_article/article.1878.html



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Jai Badri Vishal


Posted By: Jhangora
Date Posted: 01-Jan-2006 at 10:14

Chandra Singh Garhwali was born on the 24th of December 1891 in Meason, Patti Chauthan, Tehsil Thalisain DistrictGarhwal. While his early education was at home, his real teacher was the rich experience that he gathered in his wide and varied travels, his service in the army and the long terms of imprisonment which he faced with care courage and fortitude in his fight for the freedom of the country.

When Chandra Singh Garhwali first met Mahatma Gandhi, the freedom struggle and the rising sense of nationalism in the country, had already began to make a deep impression on his mind. It is said that at a public meeting in June 1929 at Bageshwar, Almora the army cap which chandra Singh Garhwali was wearing attracted the attentionof Gandhiji who remarked that he was not afraid of the army cap Chandra Singh Garhwali replied by pointing out that,. if he so wished, Gandhiji could change the cap. When Gandhiji presented him with a khadi topi, the soldier pledged to redeem the honour of the topi one day.

Indeed, the opportunity to do so presented itself only too soon. On 20th April, 1930 a civil disobedience movement commenced in the North-West frontier province under the leadership of Khan Abdul Ghaffar Khan and a programme of demonstration and Satyagrah was planned for 23rd April 1930 in Peshawar. The British Government in its eagerness to suppress this movement of the Pathans at any cost, decided to deploy the aarmy. Chandra Singh Garhwali and his men of the Garhwal Rifles quietly resolved to resist any order of their British Commander to fire upon unarmed people.

In a 23rd April, 1930 thousands of Pathans and gathered in front of the Kissakhani Bazar Police Chowki in Peshawar and the national flag was flying in their midst. The men of the Garhwal Rifles stood before the Pathans and hundreds of people were looking on from their houses and roof tops. The British Captain warned the non-violent demonstrators to disperse but it had no effect on them. When, in a rush of anger he shouted, 'Garhwali three rounds fire', an equally firm voice was heardsaying' Garhwali cease fire', and the Garhwali soldiers lowered their rifles to the ground. Chandra Singh Garhwali's voice rang out once again to declare that they would not fire upon unarmed people even if the Captain were to shoot them down. It was an amazing display of courage. An extraordinary moment in the history of our freedom struggle.

http://www.freeindia.org/dynamic/modules.php?name=Content&pa=showpage&pid=463 - http://www.freeindia.org/dynamic/modules.php?name=Content&am p;pa=showpage&pid=463

 

 



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Jai Badri Vishal


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 24-Oct-2006 at 16:35
The Sacrifice of the 300 Spartans at Thermopylae gave Greece the time and inspiration it needed to ultimately defeat the persians at the Battle of Salamina and Battle of Platea. Therefore, what the Spartans did was not stupid, but indeed heroic and brave. They thought not for themselves but of Greece.
 
The noble fight that the Souliotes of Epiros had against Ali Pasha and the varied forces of the Ottoman empire as well as their last stand, especially with the Dance of the Women finging themselves into the sea with their infants so as to avoid molestation by the Turks, went on to inspire the Greek War of Independent. Therefore, this again was truly heroic and noble.
 
Then the Battle of Crete where simple Greek Cretan delayed and slaughtered the Nazi, and thus delaying Hitler's march into Moscow in the Summer, but putting it off to the witner that cost Hitler the war on the Eastern Front, was again truly noble and heroic.
 
Finally, the Fall of Constandinople in 1453 was truly a heroic battle. The Greeks knew of the Turkish Cannons, but faced them anyway, and repelled the invading turks for several months, but then, as at Thermopylae, a traitor was present that opened the back door and the Jannissaries swrmed in and took the Holy City. The Emperor never stopped, nor did his army, until the turks vanquished him and cut off his head and the City fell. However, this story inspired and continues to inspire Greek s and non-Greeks that no matter how overwhelming the odds, no matter how ruthless the adversary it is better to die with your sworn in your hand then to submit to tyranny and oppression.
 
The Greeks lived as free men and they died as free men. if that is not noble and heroic then all of you are truly lost.
 
Peter


Posted By: Adalwolf
Date Posted: 24-Oct-2006 at 16:53
Top 3 picks:
Thermopylae
Fall of Constantinople
perhaps the Battle of Culloden-where a Scottish army armed with medieval style weapons fought a modern British army


Posted By: Gavriel
Date Posted: 24-Oct-2006 at 18:51
The Jackobite's at Culloden were armed with Muskets,there kinda of integral to the Highland charge!not many muskets going around in the medieval era.
The 'Modern British army' you speak of was made up mainly Scotsmen,with English and a few Germans thrown in,but the bulk were Scottish.Cullloded was a battle between Scotsmen.

The British army consisted of, English Cavalry (with a few Germans) and a English Infantry battalion (one third of which were Lowland Scots and 600 Highland Clansmen).
1 Battalion of Infantry made up of Highlanders from the Clans,Campbell,Munro,Ross and Sutherland.
3 Battalions of Infantry made up of Lowland Scots from the Clans,Cathcart,Colville,Sempill,Kur and Cunningham(Artillery).

Jackobite army consisted of,mainly Scottish Highlanders (two thirds of the army) with around 800 Frenchmen and the French Irish Brigade (Exiled Irishmen fighting for France).There was even a Regiment of English Infantry fighting for the Bonny Prince but they were being used as a rear guard and werent present at culloden.
The Highland Clans in the Jackobite army are too numerous to mention,basically its all the rest  LOL .

It takes Bravery to do a maneuver like the Highland Charge, after all you have to run into the first volley of musket shot, but i feel it was braver of the Scottish Redcoats (whooo,thats gonna sting LOL) who had to defend against the charge.
To defend against a Highland charge the Redcoats were trained in a new maneuver which took a hell of a lot of bravery and discipline.
Because the Highlander's Targe provided good protection infront of the man (his chest area) he could easily defend himself against a Bayonet wielding redcoat directly in front of himself.Whilst the Redcoats Bayonet is bouncing harmlessly of his Targe he can chop you in half with his Claymore.
To counter the Highland Charge the Redcoats didnt fight the man directly in front of themselves!they relied on the man to there left to kill the Highlander in front of them!The man to the left of you can Bayonet your Highlander whilst you do the same for the man to your right.
Now that took balls!  Clap
It worked too as there was only 50 Redcoat deaths and another 254 wounded,not bad for ending a Rebellion.




Posted By: Timotheus
Date Posted: 24-Oct-2006 at 21:27
Originally posted by timurshah

 i think you all should read the Gallipoli war in WW1...



Absolutely not. The British bumbled everything. The Turks won, but it wasn't a horribly brave act. That's what they got for playing Winston Churchill thirty years before his time came.


Posted By: mamikon
Date Posted: 24-Oct-2006 at 21:40
Defense of Musa Dagh

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Forty_Days_of_Musa_Dagh - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Forty_Days_of_Musa_Dagh

Franz Werfel is my hero Embarrassed


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Posted By: Adalwolf
Date Posted: 24-Oct-2006 at 22:24
Add Bastogne to the list! Go 101st!


Posted By: Turk Nomad
Date Posted: 25-Oct-2006 at 02:53

Turkish İndependence Battle...

My secon choice is Manizkert,50000 Turks(mostly Turkmen) against nearly 200000 bryzantines...And Turan tactic was good used by Alparslan Khan

Pecheneg Turks in bryzantine army joined the Turk army.

 
 
 
Other choice to Gallipoli,both sides were heroic.


Posted By: Ponce de Leon
Date Posted: 25-Oct-2006 at 10:44
bravest act i think is roosevelt going along with the rough riders in the spanish-american war

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Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 25-Oct-2006 at 13:20
Originally posted by Turk Nomad

Turkish İndependence Battle...

My secon choice is Manizkert,50000 Turks(mostly Turkmen) against nearly 200000 bryzantines...And Turan tactic was good used by Alparslan Khan

Pecheneg Turks in bryzantine army joined the Turk army.

 
 
 
Other choice to Gallipoli,both sides were heroic.
 
I believe th stupidity of the Byzantine Army had more to do with Manzikirt than the skill of the Turkish Army.



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