France Will Not Repeal Head Scarf Law
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Topic: France Will Not Repeal Head Scarf Law
Posted By: Jalisco Lancer
Subject: France Will Not Repeal Head Scarf Law
Date Posted: 30-Aug-2004 at 10:51
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Replies:
Posted By: fastspawn
Date Posted: 30-Aug-2004 at 11:01
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i agree that the French should not repeal the head scarf law to appease
the terrorist kidnappers. However i feel that this law is contrary to
the French Ideals. Making a country secular is the opposite of imposing a strict religion on them:The religion of secularism. Banning all religious artifacts, is imposing on a person's right to worship. |
Posted By: Cywr
Date Posted: 30-Aug-2004 at 11:25
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France is not so much secular as it is 'Laique', religion is a private
at home thing, and you don't bring it into the public lives of others.
So this law realy isn't that out of line with what became a de
facto French ideal that goes back to the whole anti-clerical thing back
in the 1800s, just that in the past it was all informal somewhat, and
now they feel the need to enforce it in law. Meh, still, good that their not giving in, and the terroists kind of look dumb as even people opposed to the ban have sided with the French government. -------------  Arrrgh!!"
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Posted By: Styrbiorn
Date Posted: 30-Aug-2004 at 11:51
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I'm quite impressed how stupid these terrorist kidnappers are, I didn't believe it was possible to reach such a low level. I mean, how can one even think they could make a whole nation change laws because of a single kidnapping? Nice hearing fundamentalists speaking about "personal freedom" too... *we need a roll eyes smiley* As said, the French school is totally secular, bringing religion into it is something that completely goes against their values, and I think it's good they institute laws when necessary to defend that. |
Posted By: ihsan
Date Posted: 30-Aug-2004 at 15:10
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Uhm, what difference(s) is/are between Secularism and "Laique"ism? Because in Turkey, Laik = Secular ------------- [IMG]http://img50.exs.cx/img50/6148/ger3.jpg"> Qaghan of the Vast Steppes http://steppes.proboards23.com - Steppes History Forum |
Posted By: Cywr
Date Posted: 30-Aug-2004 at 15:38
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Hmm, UK has secular state schools = no religious preference, any
religion, symbols (crosses, kirpans, headscarfs) are no problem, and a
little bit about all major religions will be taught in many schools
without focusing on any particular one. (there are of course, religious
state schools as well, but they are obliged to respect the beliefs and
needs of any minority religions who may wish to attend those schools,
ie, muslim schools cannot say no to catholics, protestant schools can
not say no to sikhs, etc.). French state schools = no religion peroid. At least, that is what i understood, so you could say the, at least from the UK example, the secular schools neither promote a single religion, or hinder another (at least in theory, not saying things are 100% perfect), where as in France, they avoid religion alltogether. And 'Laique' is the French word, i figure that was their word for it and that it was a little different, as they also have a word for 'secular', which is sculier 
------------- Arrrgh!!"
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Posted By: Jalisco Lancer
Date Posted: 30-Aug-2004 at 16:40
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Kidnappers Extend Deadline for French Hostages
By Heba Kandil DUBAI (Reuters) - Militants holding two French journalists hostage in Iraq ( http://us.rd.yahoo.com/DailyNews/manual/*http://news.search.yahoo.com/search/news?fr=news-storylinks&p=%22Iraq%22&c=&n=20&yn=c&c=news&cs=nw - news - http://us.rd.yahoo.com/DailyNews/manual/*http://search.yahoo.com/search?fr=web-storylinks&p=Iraq - web sites ) gave France another 24 hours on Monday to agree to their demands and scrap a ban on Muslim headscarves in schools, Al Jazeera reported.
The Arabic TV station showed a tape of the two journalists urging the French people to hold protests to persuade their government to retract the headscarf law or they might be killed.
The kidnappers gave the French government one more day to overturn the ban after a previous 48-hour deadline expired on Monday, Al Jazeera said, quoting a written statement.
France has scrambled to save Christian Chesnot and Georges Malbrunot, both of whom spoke on the video tape.
"I call on President (Jacques) Chirac to ... retract the veil ban immediately and I call on French people to protest the veil ban. It is a wrong and unjust law and we may die at any time," Chesnot said, according to Al Jazeera's translation into Arabic.
Thousands of people took to France's streets to demonstrate on Monday and Foreign Minister Michel Barnier visited Egypt as part of a mission to rally support in Iraq and the region.
He made an impassioned plea to the Islamic Army in Iraq to free the journalists.
The militant group, which last week said it had killed Italian journalist Enzo Baldoni, on Saturday gave the French government 48 hours to rescind the headscarf ban, without saying what would happen to the two Frenchmen if it failed to comply.
"We will continue, come what may, to follow all contacts ... with civil and religious personalities to explain the reality of the French republic ... and obtain the release of these people," Barnier said in Cairo.
Iraqi Sunni and Shi'ite Muslim groups and Islamic groups outside Iraq urged the kidnappers to release the two, noting France's opposition to the U.S.-led Iraq war and saying journalists were not combatants.
The crisis stunned France, which campaigned against the 2003 invasion of Iraq and so had considered itself relatively safe from militant attack. France also opposed the 1990-2003 economic sanctions on Iraq.
Chesnot, of Radio France Internationale, and Malbrunot, who writes for the dailies Le Figaro and Ouest France, disappeared on Aug. 20 on their way from Baghdad to Najaf, the day after Baldoni was seized.
PARIS PROTESTS
Protests were held across Paris against the kidnappings while French diplomats explored possible solutions.
"Their kidnapping is incomprehensible to all those who know that France ... is a land of tolerance and of respect for others," Barnier said, before meeting Arab League chief Amr Moussa and Egyptian Foreign Minister Ahmed Aboul Gheit.
"I urge everyone who has power, or has the capabilities, to set the journalists free as soon as possible so that the situation does not become more complicated," Moussa said.
Aboul Gheit also called for the hostages to be released.
Many Muslim women in headscarves joined French protests for their freedom. Some 200 people took to the streets of eastern Strasbourg and about 3,000 demonstrated in Paris. "The hostage-taking risks making public opinion in France turn against women and girls who wear headscarves," one of the veiled protesters in Paris said in front of the headquarters of Radio France Internationale, Chesnot's employer. Barnier said Foreign Ministry Secretary-General Hubert Colin de Verdiere arrived in Baghdad on Monday for crisis talks. Barnier is expected to visit Amman and Qatar, but not Iraq. Islamic groups in Iraq sympathized with the French. "France's position toward Iraq is good. But we also are against kidnapping all journalists," said Sheikh Abdel Sattar Abdel Jabbar, a top official in the Muslim Clerics Association. "We call on the kidnappers to release them immediately." SYMPATHY FOR THE FRENCH Outside Iraq, Egypt's Muslim Brotherhood, the Arab world's largest Islamist organization, and the Federation of Arab Journalists spoke out against the kidnapping. Cairo's prestigious Sunni seat of learning, al-Azhar, and Lebanon's top Shi'ite cleric Mohammad Hussein Fadlallah also condemned the action. Al Jazeera, which has regularly broadcast similar tapes of hostages, said all kidnapped journalists should be released. "This clearly means a call for the immediate release of the French journalists held hostage," Al Jazeera spokesman Jihad Ballout said. German Chancellor Gerhard Schroeder offered a word of caution about efforts to free them, saying: "The more it's dealt with in public, the less chance there will be to resolve the crisis." French critics and defenders of the ban on headscarves in schools united in support of the law on Monday, pledging to stand firm against the kidnappers. France passed the law in March in reaction to the growing influence of Islamist activists and tensions between Muslim and Jewish youths in schools. The law also bans Jewish skullcaps and large Christian crosses. Leaders of France's five-million strong Muslim community have denied any link with the militant Islamic Army in Iraq. Fouad Alaoui, secretary-general of an Islamic group that had previously urged schoolgirls to defy the ban, recommended on Monday they refrain from flouting the law. The French government said there was no question of the ban being revoked. (Additional reporting by Amil Khan, Joelle Diderich, Khaled Yacoub Oweis, Mariam Karouny) |
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Posted By: John Doe
Date Posted: 30-Aug-2004 at 18:38
| These terrorists have really painted themselves into a corner here... there is no way france will change it laws to appease an outside force, and now the terrorists have to kill citizens of an almost friendly country or backflip and let them go. |
Posted By: Cornellia
Date Posted: 30-Aug-2004 at 19:45
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They will backflip and let them go. ------------- Felix qui potuit rerum cognoscere causas |
Posted By: ArmenianSurvival
Date Posted: 30-Aug-2004 at 22:28
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Its their country. End of story. At least they let you know straight out. Unlike America where they flaunt that they are the most humanitarian nation while waging a war on a country that hasnt done anything besides pump oil. (Yes i know Saddam was a bastard, but do you think the US government cares solely about the safety of the Iraqis?) I think the French are just being honest and people dont like honesty these days. I think its good if religion gets left out of the school. Religion is a very dangerous tool when presented in the wrong way to the wrong people, keep it to yourself. ------------- Mass Murderers Agree: Gun Control Works! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Van_Resistance Քիչ ենք բայց Հայ ենք։ |
Posted By: Alparslan
Date Posted: 31-Aug-2004 at 07:26
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This is the most stupid act of resistant forces opposing to USA invasion since France was an opposing state to US occupation too. I wonder if this issue could be related with Americans again to influence the public opinion in France? or those kidnappers are really idiots.
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Posted By: Beylerbeyi
Date Posted: 01-Sep-2004 at 04:59
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There is a difference between laique and secular, I believe. For instance, Turkey is said to be secular, but in fact it is laique (Turkish word is also 'laik'). Turkish state controls the religion, it keeps it away from the public sphere (no headscarves even in universities!) and dictates what the imams will preach in mosques, whose wages are paid by the state (i.e. taxes). I'm not sure if France is like that too, but I guess there's a fundamental difference between the French model (laique) and the British model (secular). ------------- |
Posted By: Gallipoli
Date Posted: 01-Sep-2004 at 06:57
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Our secular model was adapted from France with some changes... ------------- |
Posted By: Sabzevarian
Date Posted: 01-Sep-2004 at 17:28
| Are the Jews, Sikh's etc also complaining about this law? |
Posted By: Cywr
Date Posted: 01-Sep-2004 at 17:33
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Some have been making noises. However, as far as Sikhs are concerned, the initial fuss was understandably over Turbans, however, the French government have been smart and declared that the obligation never to cut their hair was the visible religious symbol, and that the Turban technicly hides that, the other symbols (5 'K's) are not as visible, and thus not a big deal. ------------- Arrrgh!!"
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Posted By: Ptolemy
Date Posted: 01-Sep-2004 at 18:43
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Well terrorists do what terrorists have to, I guess. Even though I think it is stupid of them, I'm surprised it hasn't happened earlier. As to the French law, I can't say I know a lot about the threat of fundamentalism in France. But in Canada, I dont think I would appreciate a similar law (I'm no muslim, BTW) simply because I think freedoms are more important than whether the state wishes to consider itslef 'secular' (though Canada is secular). |
Posted By: Sabzevarian
Date Posted: 02-Sep-2004 at 02:11
Hmm, I think a good way for someone who wanted to protest it should be shaving their head (maybe do it as a group). Or are they going to ban shaved heads too?
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Posted By: Cywr
Date Posted: 02-Sep-2004 at 07:21
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A better way were if everyone were to wear headscarves, and claim it
was the latest fashion, then muslims could wear it too, and claim they
were just following the fashion, hence rediculing the law.
------------- Arrrgh!!"
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Posted By: Gallipoli
Date Posted: 02-Sep-2004 at 12:19
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I heard from BBC that a new law has been passed related to this head-scarf thing. Also the French asked for confirmation on the Frenchemen in Iraq,if they are dead or not ------------- |
Posted By: fastspawn
Date Posted: 02-Sep-2004 at 12:41
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cywr, i like your idea. IS there a way you could give that idea to the people of france, or the grassroots leader? Like make skullcaps, yashmaks and headscarves the new in thing. |
Posted By: Cywr
Date Posted: 02-Sep-2004 at 13:09
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I'm sure someone in France must of thought of it, but there are always
very conservative minded folk who would regard such an approach as
undermining the symbols of their religion, bla bla, so... You can never please everyone. ------------- Arrrgh!!"
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Posted By: Cyrus Shahmiri
Date Posted: 02-Sep-2004 at 13:21
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ArmenianSurvival, "awful massacres against the Armenians in Turkey", It was their country. End of story? In Iran women are forced to wear the hijab and in France they are forced to not wear the hijab, is there any difference between them? I think both of them are against the freedom of the individual! Is two victims enough for France that didn't support the US in the war against the terrorism? ------------- 
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Posted By: Styrbiorn
Date Posted: 02-Sep-2004 at 13:28
Yes, and it's the land of the French too. They have a century long tradition of a secular school, and I can very well understand why they want to continue with that, given their history. It's not that they force them to abandon their religion - they are completely free to pray to whatever god or gods they want and erect buildings of worship (that is quite a lot more than you can do in Iran, right?) - but not in the public institution that is the school. To say France is not supporting the struggle against terrorism is extemely unfair, since France have been a victim of terrorism far longer than the US, and thus been fighting it longer too. I can neither see that the attack on Irak as a part of a war against terrorism. Sure, some people from within Irak did support terrorists, but following that logic, you have to invade the US itself too - remember from where the IRA got a lot of funding? |
Posted By: Jalisco Lancer
Date Posted: 02-Sep-2004 at 15:15
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Posted By: ArmenianSurvival
Date Posted: 02-Sep-2004 at 15:29
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Cyrus....Trying to keep religion out of schools is completely different than the massacre of a religious minority and taking their homelands. I understand what youre saying in that it is an obstruction of their freedoms, but they also banned Jewish headwear, and crosses as well. If the law was only against Muslims, i would agree with you 100%, but they applied it to all religions, even their own. They are free to worship. Thats a big leap ahead of some Muslim countries and how they deal with their religious minorities. And attacking Iraq when the U.N. was already sanctioning them everywhere even where the sun don't shine isnt an attack on terrorism. Its Bush trying to act like the new sherrif in town, the lone ranger. He is from Texas, afterall. And can you blame those terrorists? I dont think anyone who comes from a country that hasnt been raped can understand the frustration that a terrorist has. All that strength he shows with his gun and his words is a shield to hide all the pain he has felt for his own people and his country for his whole life. People miss the point...the reason terrorism came into play in the first place was to get the public to notice WHY that person did what he did. People look too much at the action and not enough at the reason. Im not saying its right, the way they push their ideas forward is completely wrong in my opinion. My country has been raped repeatedly but do i go around capturing Muslims and holding them for ransom? No, because my logic and humanism supersedes my pain. ------------- Mass Murderers Agree: Gun Control Works! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Van_Resistance Քիչ ենք բայց Հայ ենք։ |
Posted By: Styrbiorn
Date Posted: 02-Sep-2004 at 15:39
"Raped"? The Age of Imperialism is over by half a century at least, and I despise how people - there as well as in the West itself - try to blaim the West on everyone's failure. China was used, India and South East Asia much more so, but they are today very succesful, or on the way of becoming. Blaming someone else for his own failure is quite a "human" behaviour, easy but extremely childish. And reasons? Well, these people (I'm thinking al Q now) are Wahhabist maniacs who won't stop until the whole world shares their fundamentalistic ideas. Education is the only think that can erase it in the long run, but it will take a very long time... |
Posted By: Cornellia
Date Posted: 02-Sep-2004 at 16:02
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er.....I'm going to interpret that as meaning lone ranger as in the Lone Ranger was from Texas. ------------- Felix qui potuit rerum cognoscere causas |
Posted By: John Doe
Date Posted: 02-Sep-2004 at 17:08
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Re: that comment on the law curtailing individual freedoms... the law is only in reference to schools... while at school, no symbols of religion must be displayed, outside of school, you are free to do what you want. Do French school children wear uniforms? Are they allowed to smoke in school? |
Posted By: Cywr
Date Posted: 02-Sep-2004 at 17:14
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IIRC, many French schools don't have uniforms, rare on much of the continent AFAIK.
------------- Arrrgh!!"
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Posted By: ArmenianSurvival
Date Posted: 02-Sep-2004 at 18:04
So i guess Palestinians should just forget about the fact that their homeland for thousands of years was simply handed as a gift to the Jews? China and all the countries of the far east werent used as much as the countries of the middle east. And plus, China and India have populations of over 1 billion, hard not to consider them some kind of a force to be reckoned with. How many Palestinians are there? Far less than a billion, thats for sure. If Palestinians had any kind of power they wouldnt resort to terrorism. Why do you think a country like Armenia doesn't resort to terrorism? Because we have the 2nd best foreign representation in U.S. congress behind the Jews, and a bunch of Armenian rebels in Nagorno-Karabagh were still powerful enough to take over 1/5 of Azerbaijan. Thats why we dont resort to terrorism, because we actually have some kind of power, as little as it may be. Only people that have no other choice caused by a lack of power resort to terrorism. ------------- Mass Murderers Agree: Gun Control Works! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Van_Resistance Քիչ ենք բայց Հայ ենք։ |
Posted By: Ptolemy
Date Posted: 02-Sep-2004 at 18:09
| Does anyone know how this law relates to religous tatoos? |
Posted By: JanusRook
Date Posted: 02-Sep-2004 at 20:46
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I would guess cover them up either with clothing or bandages? ------------- Economic Communist, Political Progressive, Social Conservative. Unless otherwise noted source is wiki. |
Posted By: Cyrus Shahmiri
Date Posted: 03-Sep-2004 at 03:25
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You can't compare hijab with other religious things, many muslim women are ready to lose their heads but not their hijab, I'm sure that many muslim girls in france had to ignore school because of this law and it is an oppression against them. -------------
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Posted By: Cywr
Date Posted: 03-Sep-2004 at 05:48
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Well so far its been no big deal, some of the girls have taken to wearing wigs over their hair. Nice.
------------- Arrrgh!!"
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Posted By: Jalisco Lancer
Date Posted: 08-Sep-2004 at 17:53
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Confusion Over Fate of French Hostages in Iraq
By Kerstin Gehmlich PARIS (Reuters) - Confusion surrounded the fate of two French journalists held hostage in Iraq ( http://us.rd.yahoo.com/DailyNews/manual/*http://news.search.yahoo.com/search/news?fr=news-storylinks&p=%22Iraq%22&c=&n=20&yn=c&c=news&cs=nw - news - http://us.rd.yahoo.com/DailyNews/manual/*http://search.yahoo.com/search?fr=web-storylinks&p=Iraq - web sites ) on Thursday after a new purported statement from the kidnappers denied they had demanded a $5 million ransom or set a 48-hour deadline.
"We remain in the same state of hope -- confident and cautious at the same time," government spokesman Jean-Francois Cope said on Wednesday after Prime Minister Jean-Pierre Raffarin discussed the issue with top officials.
An Internet statement purportedly from the Islamic Army in Iraq militant group holding Christian Chesnot and Georges Malbrunot dismissed a statement that appeared on the Web on Monday in the name of the militants.
"There is absolutely no truth to the statement carried by the media on the Internet ... comprising financial and other demands," said the statement, posted on a Web site identified as belonging to the Islamic Army in Iraq.
Another statement on the same Web site said the group was warning "any party whatsoever from interfering" in the case of the French hostages, who were both seized on Aug. 20.
"The Islamic Army's legal committee will announce its decision soon, God willing," said the statement.
France was stunned by the kidnappings because it had opposed the U.S.-led war in Iraq and has not sent troops to the country.
No sightings of the men have been made since Aug 28 when Arabic television station Al Jazeera broadcast a brief video tape of what it said were the two journalists standing in front of an Islamic Army in Iraq banner.
Al Jazeera said the kidnappers had demanded the French government scrap a ban on Muslim headscarves in state schools and had given Paris 48 hours to comply.
But the French government rejected the demand and the ban went into force last week.
In solidarity with the two hostages, hundreds of people attended a Paris concert sponsored by media rights group Reporters Without Borders on Wednesday night, dancing beneath giant posters of the journalists.
Raffarin's government had mobilized unprecedented support from Arab capitals and Islamic groups, and it was so optimistic about the success of this strategy that ministers said last weekend the men's release was imminent.
But hopes for a quick release were dented by a surge of violence in Iraq and the kidnapping on Tuesday of two Italian women aid workers in Baghdad.
Scores of hostages from many countries have been seized in the past five months in a guerrilla campaign to undermine Iraq's U.S.-backed interim government. More than 20 have been killed.
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Posted By: TMPikachu
Date Posted: 08-Sep-2004 at 20:35
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Still, the laws of Islam and Christianity say to obey the laws of the land. Personally I think it is France alone is who should decide on this issue. |
Posted By: TheDiplomat
Date Posted: 18-Sep-2004 at 15:55
can you enlight us why The Turkish state controls the religion and how? i really wonder... -sigh- ------------- ARDA:The best Turkish diplomat ever! |
Posted By: Evildoer
Date Posted: 19-Sep-2004 at 08:45
You know nothing. If age of imperialism was over why was Cyprus in the hands of British until 1970's? This is nonsense. In China, you get beaten to pulp if you defy the government just as you get to be if you defy the "religion" in Saudi Arabia. Just because they make some electrical parts dosn't mean they are developed. Yea, India is successful because there are ethnic and religious hatred that are scathing the country and because brides get to be killed there for not paying enough dowry. Your definition of success? You understand nothing of this issue. Can the Al-Qaeda alone conquer the world? As long as America seeks to exploit the middle east, economically through corperations and poltically through dictators (Saudi King, Jordanian King, Egyptian dictator), the disgruntled natives will be easy recruits for their enemies. If people do not have reason to hate America, they will stop being brainwashed into joining terrorists like Al-Qaeda. Thus America is ploughing the land for terrorists to sow. By the way, your "Wahabists" that are in power in Saudi Arabia are reciving direct funding from United States. So much for the end of Age of Imperialism. |