As Topic / Who where the Armenian origins ?

Thx ! ArmenianSurvival

I have also heard that Armenians descended from Hittites.

Is there much truth to this?

The earliest attestation of peoples in what would historically be known as Armenia (i.e. the land about Lake Van and north) didn't include Indo-European speaking peoples.  If the Urarteans are indicative, the languages of the land before the ethnogenesis of the Armenians were Hurrian and Caucasian speaking.  Since there are affinities between Hurrian and Caucasian languages, we can say that the whole of Trans-Caucasia was Hurro-Caucasian in speech. 

We have the names of places, tribes and persons from Hittite, Assyrian and Urartean sources which just about exclude an Armenian presence, spanning the period from about 1400 to 650 BC.  From Hittite sources (c. 1400-1200 BC), we have the names of rulers and kingdoms which existed to the east of the Hittite Empire, including the kingdoms of Azzi (or Hayasa), Ishuwa, and Alshe.  Further east we have the Hurri-land.  The names of the rulers of these kingdoms are more or less decisively Hurrian.  When we turn to the Assyrian sources (c. 1360-650 BC) we have the same pattern of Hurrian names.  The same is true of the Urartean sources (c. 850-750 BC). 

Evidence for an Armenian origin in the west include the fact that among modern languages, Armenian displays enough of an affinity with Greek to postulate a time before the formation of Greek and Armenian of a "Southern Group"  of Eurasian proto-languages which included Greek, Thracian, Armenian, and Aryan (Adrados, 1982) or a "Aryo-Graeco-Armenian" nucleus (Gamkrelidze/Ivanov, 1985).  The Balkans could have been the origin of the Armenian language considering that further north, we have evidence of Iranian languages spoken on the Ukrainian steppe, and of course, further south of Greek.  Add to this, the evidence of a Luwian influence on the Armenian language shows at one time that the proto-Armenians had an association with the Luwians, which inhabited western Anatolia.  The tradition recorded by Herodotus that the Armenians were "Phrygian colonists" may not be far from the truth, considering that what is known of the Phrygian language also points to an affinity with Greek. 

Both the names "Armenian" and "Hayk" may have been acquired names as the proto-Armenians made their way from the Balkans to their ultimate destination to the land about Lake Van, in the aftermath of the destruction of the Hittite Empire by the Sea Peoples.  The Assyrians record of an invasion of their empire about 1165 of a people called the Mushki.  After about 50 years they invaded the province of Kadmukhi, a Hurrian-speaking Assyrian province immediately to the northwest of Assyria itself, but were destroyed by the Assyrian king Tiglathpileser I.  The remnants settled in a small region in the mountains northwest of Mesopotamia.  It was these remnants that more than 300 years later were encountered by the Assyrian king Assurnasirpal who subjugated them.  Later we know of a place called Urme within the region called Shubria, near where these Mushki had settled.  If this place was the origin of the Armenians, then we have an historic link which brought Mushkians into an area which perhaps was the ethnogenesis of the Armenians.

We later encounter Mushki in the reign of Sargon II of Assyria, beginning about 715 BC.  These Mushki were not the same as those encountered by his predecessors, but rather a group at this time forming a formidable kingdom in Anatolia, under their king Mita.  This name coupled with the chronology shows that the king in question was none other than Midas, king of Phrygia.  Hence, we now have a connection between the Armenians and the Phrygians, both perhaps having their origins with the Mushkians.  The Phrygians were either the western component of the Mushkians, or, if Herodotus is to be believed, were originally the Brigians of Macedonia where a Midas ruled near the later first capital of the Macedonians, and subsequently migrated into Anatolia, where they gave their name to the Troad (Hellespontine Phrygia) and to the large mass of land to the west of the Halys (Phrygia), and took the name of the people who predominated in that area. 

The first time we know directly about Armenia and the Armenians, is in the Behistun inscription of Darius, c. 521 BC, where the "land" of Armina is first mentioned with the name of a loyal satrap with an Iranian name. 

Prehistoric Armenia starts with, the Hayasa-Azzi tribes, also known as Proto-Armenians, were indigenous to the Armenian Highland in Eastern Anatolia. These tribes formed the Nairi tribal union, which existed until late 13th century BC.

Date:   2800 BC  The Armens 
             1800  BC The Hayasas 
         1100 BC  The Nairis 

Armenian History begins with the story of Haig.

Haig, the chieftain of the tribe of Armens, one of the most powerful, organized and biggest of the Armenian tribes in Armenian Highland and as well as Northern Mesopotamia or better known as Armenian Mesopotamia. Haig organizes Armens against the invading forces of Baeleus of Babylon attacking from Mesopotamia into the Land of Ararat.

As the Armenian Traditional Date or Calendar of Vahagn, tells us it was August 11 in the year 2492 BC, in a battle that takes place near the shores of Lake Van, Haig fires a triple headed broad arrow from his long bow into the chest of Baeleus of Babylon. According to Movses Khorenatsi (5th C AD Historian) the ample arrow splits the breastplate of Baeleus, who falls to the ground and dies on the spot.

The unorganized horde flees in the face of the death of their leader. Haig calls on his kinsmen to unite into one single nation and kingdom in order to defend and to continue cultivate, improve and enrich the ancestral homeland.

Haig establishes a town - Haigashen which becomes the nucleus of later Armenian Kingdom. Haig places his sons in charge of strategically important areas of Armenia to guard and prevent any further hostilities from foreign empires. Haig, once thought to be a mythical folk legend hero, is now accepted by some historians as the actual Armenic leader of the third millennium BC and the traditional establisher of the First Armenian Kingdom.

Wikipedia says on its article on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phrygians - Phrygians that

According to Herodotus, the Armenians moving to the area of lake Van in about the 7th century BC were colonists of the Phrygians.

Many Armenian words are in fact Urartian in origin.

Also, theres about 1400 Armenian words that are derived from the Iranian languages. There are a host of influences on the Armenian language, and it is difficult if you try to pinpoint it to one specific group of migrated peoples. The Armenians were not just people who migrated from ancient Greece, they are also a blend of Urartians and other natives. The cultures blended as well as the languages, explaining the many influences, which is why Armenian is in its own subgroup of indo-european languages, as it is not closely related enough to any other language to group it together.

I have even heard of a far-fetched theory that Armenians were the surviving Trojans of the Trojan war who migrated east after Troy's collapse. As i said, theres many theories, none of them have been proven. Some are more valid than others, such as the migration theory (although the migrating population was a minority compared to the already-settled native popluations of Eastern Anatolia). And there will always be theories of Armenians being indigenous. I guess we'll never know for certain, which is why i encourage open discussion on the topic. Id like to hear more of your thoughts.

There is no debate that the Urarteans became a part of the Armenian population.  When this occurred is problematic considering that for a time, during the Persian and Hellenistic periods, we hear of both Armenians and Urarteans (Alarodians, in Greek) as co-existing.  The Persians seemed to have created separate provinces if we are to believe Herodotus.  "Armenians" was included in the Thirteenth province and "Alarodians" was part of the Eighteenth,  (Herod. Book III, 93 & 94).  In the march of the 10,000, Armenia seemed to have continued to be governed by two separate Persian governors.  True unification didn't seem to have occured until the reign of Tigranes II (c. 94-56 BC).  It was probably at this time that the Alarodians were ultimately absorbed.

Now, since we can identify Armenians and Urarteans as separate peoples in an earlier time, we can at least isolate which group had primacy.  This obviously goes to the Urartians, whose records show that they did invade and conquer as far north as Colchis and as far west as Cappadocia.   Between Urartu (south of Lake Van), Colchis and Cappadocia were kingdoms and tribes which bore names of Hurro-Caucasian origin.  Therefore the region of the Armenian (or proto-Armenian) language must be sought either southwest or further west.  Armenian does show borrowings from Urartean but it also shows borrowings from Luwian as well.  Therefore there was a time of association with peoples originally from western Anatolia, which again shows the probable origin of the Armenian language.  From the west or southwest, the proto-Armenian language penetrated the region of Hurro-Caucasian languages and eventually absorbed the speakers of these now extinct languages.

Do the people of Georgia and Armenia have similar histories ?

Well.......in a manner of speaking.  As Oguzoglu has pointed out, the Georgians and the Armenians had "different origins", but maps of the ancient Transcaucasic region compared to modern maps will show that large parts of the modern Georgia were included in ancient Armenia.  Georgians point to their origins in the ancient kingdoms of Colchis, Iberia, and Abasgia (Abkhazia).  Iberia at least had dynasts originally of Iranian origin which were succeeded by Armenians and then by Parthians but then by Sassanids, and then again by Armenians.  Abasgia (the successor of Colchis in the western region), likewise received Armenian rulers and there was a time when both Abasgia and Iberia were united under an Armenian dynasty.  The subsequent partition of Iberia/Georgia was by two branches of this Armenian dynasty.  Georgia was reunified in 1725 by one of these branches but the Russians abolished the monarchy in 1801 and annexed it.

True, but in the Behistun inscription, there were translations of the message Darius was trying to give. We can prove that Urartu and Armenia are the same because in one language, the area was called Urartu, but in another language it was called Armenia (as you said)

And you are correct, in the Behistun inscription, what is called Armina in Persian was called Urastu in the Babylonian translation.  However, what is meant by the two terms bares on the history of the Persians and Babylonians regarding this northern region.  The Babylonian term is obviously the more ancient term, being a derivation of the Assyrian term Urartu (more anciently, Uruatri, meaning "mountainland" and thus originally described a region, not a people.  It was only later that one of the Nairi tribes to the south of Lake Van named the Biainili gained political possession of the whole of Urartu and hence the name of the region became the name of both kingdom and people. 

The region to the north of Lake Van was a smorgasbord of other kingdoms and tribes.  The Urartian kingdom expanded into this region and after several generations of wars, incorported this region into their empire.  From the standpoint of the Assyrians and Babylonians, this expanded northern region (on all sides of Lake Van) was simply "Urartu", named after the southern kingdom.

The Persian term Armina did not have a direct version in either Urartean, Assyrian, and Babylonian, and therefore was newer.  The Armenians inhabited the region north of Lake Van sometime after the Urarteans were driven back into their original abodes south of Lake Van probably by the Cimmerians, c. 700 BC, after much ethnic turmoil.  When the Medes gained possession of these northern regions by about 585 BC, the inhabitants were probably Armenians, although the land-name does not occur in written record until the Behistun inscription, c. 513 BC. 

It is thus to be understood that both the Persian and Babylonian land-names on the Behistun inscription were the same, but named after two different peoples, one in the south and the other in the north.  Each people at different times was considered the representative of the land encountered by expanding outsiders. 

I thought Urartu is derived from the word Ararat, the sacred mountain of Armenia. Urartu was simply the Assyrian name for Biayna (what the natives called it). One can also say that Biayna also designates a region because Biayna is related to the word 'Van'. But it is not so...

Yes, many tribes have entered into the Armenian highland and mixed. The Armenian nation was thus created. Armenia was, after all located in a crossroads of various civilizations.

One of the first proto-Armenian tribes we know of is the Hayasa tribe. They were indigenous to the Armenian Highland in Eastern Anatolia. Armenians now call themselves 'Hay' - surely related to 'Hayasa'.

Hello, this is my first post in this forum. I found a link to this thread while googling and decided to join the discussion. I'm of Irish heritage and in my late twenties and very interested in Armenian studies.

In my opinion Armenian origins aren't as complicated as they're made out to be by some of you. At the very least they are no less complicated than those of Greeks for example.

Few things to consider, Armenians are the the only legitimate descendants of Hurro-Urartians because their relationship is the same as that of Romans proper/Italians with Etruscans and Hellenes with Minoans/Pelasgians.

The Armenian language is indeed the closest living relative of Greek suggesting a common Graeco-Armenian origin along with Phrygian, Thracian and perhaps Dacian. Armenian like Greeks also shares the most number of cognates and toponyms with Hittite and its derivative Luwian. Both Greeks and Armenians may claim lineage from Hittites, Luwians, Lydians.

It's quite evident that the Hurro-Urartian additions to the Armenian vocabulary, grammar and syntax occured later though before any Indo-Aryan influence via Medes, Persia and Parthia in this order.

Furthermore, until the location of the PIE birth is figured out for all we know the Anatolian theory is correct and the Armenian language though developed somewhere in Europe simply returned home.

There is absolutely no evidence that suggests Hayasa were Hurrian. their names are just as Hurrian as Hittite names, whatever that means.

Ararat is the biblical Hebrew rendering of the Assyrian term Urartu.  Even in the Bible, there is no specific mountain named "Ararat".  The correct biblical expression was "the mountains of Ararat".  Hence even the Hebrew account of Noah's ark still renders faithfully the Assyrian usage of the their own term.  Ararat in Hebrew usage implied a mountainous land just like the meaning of the Assyrian term.

Yes, eventually most of the peoples of the region of Armenia became Armenianized.  But it must be stressed that there was already an Armenian ethnos separate from others such as Taochians, Saspires, Matienians, Alarodians, etc. which held separate identities from the contemporary Armenians until a later period.  All these were eventually assimilated.

Hayasa was also called Azzi.  Hittite narrative has them border their Upper Land which they invaded when Suppiluliumas was crown prince.  It is thus understood that Azzi/Hayasa was directly northeast of Khatti east of a line extending southwards towards the terminus of the northern part of the Euphrates.  This would comprehend the northeasternmost part of classical Armenia and perhaps the southwesternmost part of classical Colchis.  However, we need to give pause to examine the linguistic position of this region.  The whole of the region of Armenia (sometimes also referred to as Transcaucasia) was probably Hurrian, Hurrian-related, Caucasian, or even related to Hattian (some consider Hattian as the westernmost Caucasian language).   The very region of the later Urartu was, according to some scholars, the location of the "Hurri-Land".  Hayasa may have been a name later adopted by the proto-Armenians when they had settled the region, much in the same way that the Thracian Slavs adopted the name of the Turkic Bulgars. 

Those tribes or clans were only mentioned by Herodotus and appear nowhere else. Nothing is said about them in Behistun, Naq�-i Rustam, Daiva or Anabasis. Either these did not exist at all or were just tiny clans, perhaps migrants from the Caucasus next to Orontid Armenia.

What makes you think the Hurrians did not come from the Caucasus or even from the South-East and dominated the native IE's who had no literature as far as we know in those days until the rise of Hittites.

You are prematurely dismissing the possibility that IE's are autochtones.

Classification of Hattic is under much debate. So is Hurro-Urartian. I don't know anyone who speaks either They appear to be non-IE like Eteocretan but a relationship with other languages is still dubious at most even though it's easy to look for a link in Caucasus.

Bulgars had picked up Turkic elements but they were originally Indo-Aryan.

http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Gazetteer/Places/Asia/Armenia/_Texts/KURARM/6*.html - http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Gazetteer/Places/Asia/ Armenia/_Texts/KURARM/6*.html

That's bad news for this forum. The Anatolian origin of PIE is one of the two most accepted theories. I support the Anatolian theory over the Kurgan theory for various reasons, one of them being the names of animals and vegetation.

Sumerians and Elamites weren't from that region, unless you believe that Sumerians descended from the Armenian Highlands. We do not know enough about Hattis or Hurrians.  Early IE's were mostly farmers, and had no literature. Because they left no writing does not mean they did not exist.

I don't believe that. My range is wider, from the British Isles/Iberian peninsula all the way to the Caspian excluding Zagros mountains and most of Iran.

But Herodotus is not the only source that shows a similarity of Armenian arms, clothing and language and it can be verified. The names of those tribes and who they were cannot.  It's not a Phrygian origin of Armenians btw, they were kindred peoples but clearly distinct. From those ancient peoples of the Balkans and Anatolia only Greeks and Armenians survive today and carry on their legacy.

Good questions.

The idea is that: a) PIE is from Anatolia b) moves to Europe leaving languages like Hittite. c) IE forms in Europe d) Great migration of IE.

I will start a new thread after work. Meantime you can lookup Colin Renfrew(most famous, revised his theories several times), Gamkrelidze & Ivanov as well as Gray & Atkinson (these guys use glottochronology a la Sforza).

As for the names, you went offtrack. I meant the oldest words have names of animals and plants that suggest a mountainous region like Anatolia/Transcaucasus.

More later.

Herodotus makes it clear that these were major peoples.  The Saspires for instance are mentioned six times.  They lived between Colchis and Media apparently in northeastern Armenia (Herod. Book I.104.1; I.110.2; IV.37.1; IV.40.1).   The Matienians are mentioned 8 times.  They were the southeastern neighbors of the Armenians with the northernmost limit of the Tigris as boundary.  Their land is described as mountainous with the Tigris, Gyndes, and the Araxes rivers flowing through it (Herod. I.189.1; I.202.3; .  This comprehends the southeastern part of Armenia and westernmost Media.   The Armenians, by contrast are only mentioned three times.  They were said to be next to the Cilicians (Herod. Book V.49.6) with the Euphrates as boundary (Book V.52.3) and next to the Matieni with the upper Tigris as a boundary between the two.  This indicates that the Armenians inhabited the whole of western Armenia to Lake Van.  The Alarodians were only mentioned twice in association with others in this group but without geographical context.  They must by mere implication be placed in central Armenia in the region of Lake Van.  Since they were the original Urarteans, their status as a major group is assured. 

Using the Persian inscriptions to disprove their existence misses the whole point.  Darius is concerned with "lands", not peoples.  His "lands" comprised many peoples.  Its just like saying that Aeolians, Dorians, Lycians, and Carians did not exist just because they were not mentioned in the inscriptions.  They were all part of the "land" of Yauna which is mentioned in the inscriptions.  Nothing, therefore can be proved or concluded by using the Persian inscriptions.

Using Anabasis proves nothing either.  I need to point out that the route of the 10,000 took them through the province of Western Armenia (Xen. Anab. IV.1) and thus not in the area of the peoples mentioned by Herodotus.  What is curious is that Western Armenia was not purely Armenian either.  Armenia originally stretched northward to the Black Sea (Herod. III.93.1).  By the time of Xenophon, Armenia's northern limit was a branch of the Araxes called the Phasis (not to be confused with the Colchian river by that name).  To the north of this Phasis, were peoples formerly included in Armenia known as the Chalybes, Taochi, and the Phasians, which blocked the way of the 10,000 (Xen. Anab. VI.3).  It's also curious to note that the region known as Carduchia can be seen to have also been included in Armenia, since it also was a part of the ancient Urartian kingdom.

Ummm, no, I don't think so.  First off, there is no evidence of an IE presence there until either the Cimmerian invasion (c. 700 BC), the Median conquest (c. 585 BC) or the first mention of "Armenia" (c. 513 BC).  On the other hand we have inscriptional evidence of Hurrian on the southern periphery of this region going back to at least 2300 BC.  There is evidence to suggest a relationship of both Hattic and Hurrian to Caucasian languages, and thus a regional continuum stretching from central Anatolia to Transcaucasia north into the Caucasus and beyond.  The "Hurri-Land" of the mid-2nd millennium is located by some scholars in central Armenia about Lake Van.  The kings of Alshe in western Armenia bore Hurrian names.  The Azzi/Hayasan king Anniya seems to bear a Hurrian name.  In the earliest history of the Hittite kingdom, the Hurrians attacked the Hittite land during the reign of Khattushilish I (c. 1650-1620 BC) as he was campaigning west against Arzawa.  They apparently attacked from the east, perhaps from Transcaucasia or northern Mesopotamia.    Later during the time of the Urarteans and Assyrians, we have a very detailed geography of Armenia which reveals a complex political situation.  The Urarteans who campaigned as far north as Colchis and as far west as Cappadocia make no mention of Armenia or Hayasa, but yet mention many other states and tribes.  Among these were the major group called the Daieukhi which survived into classical times, known to the Greeks as the Taochi (see above). 

Classification of Hattic is under much debate. So is Hurro-Urartian. I don't know anyone who speaks either They appear to be non-IE like Eteocretan but a relationship with other languages is still dubious at most even though it's easy to look for a link in Caucasus.

Nevertheless they are considered non-IE and linguists do link them with Caucasian languages. 

Paris Herouni has write in his book Armenia and old Armenia

That Hayazza Theori is a fake...

And he has compared the Aramean language with Armenian and his conclusion is that Armamean was Armenian

Armenian Language began 45 000 years ago

Armenian Written language 25 000 years ago (Pictures,symbols,Hieroglyphs)

Armenian Preliminery alphabet 19 Letters and 10 figures)           X millennium BC


Armenian devolped alphabet 34 letters VI millennium BC

Armenian present alphabet 39 letters Recoverd in 406 AD By Meshrop mashtots

This book is great  

http://www.armenianow.com/eng/?go=pub&id=536 - http://www.armenianow.com/eng/?go=pub&id=536

I bought the book in ARMENIA

Arameans wrote their texts from right to left (similar to Arabic and Hebrew). Yet the Armenian alphabet is from left to right. How could they be related?

Mesrob Mashdots might have taken elements from the Aramean language to create the Armenian alphabet. After all, he researched in Syrian (Aramean) areas too.

I should add that Sarkis (an Armenian name) is also an Aramean name.

The only reason why Artashes used the Aramaic alphabet is that Armenians did not have an alphabet back then. In the East, Aramaic was what English is today.

Similarily, cuneiform inscriptions were used in Urartu.

• Ur: ur = water / uri = city
• Uruk: urok/urak = our waters/the waters
  
• Eridu: iritu = "to civilize" (from iri=city, -du=verb) / Herio du = it has Death / iri du = it has city
  
• Larrak: the fields, the pastures
• Nippur: neba-ur(i) = water/city of the sister
  
• Kish: kisa/gisa = human(kind); kizi = very small thing; kizun = trascendency, hope
• Sumer: zumel = wild wicker, cane; something greenish / zumar = elm tree
  

If you use Old Armenien you can translate Sumerian 

in the book there is Present day alphabet and  old the Armenian alphabet

Same with Persian/Iranian languages, first Aramaic Cunieform then Phoenecian for Pahlavi, actually modern Arabic is derived from Phoenecian script, too.

[ARM]Paul, please stop.

Sharrukin, i'll respond to your theories in time convenient. 

Armanians are obviosly at least partly related to the Aryan/Indo Europeans tribe/tribes.  In fact the area that is now Armania is very near to one of the original places the Aryans are supposedly originaly from.  If this place is the original homeland of the Aryans the Armanians might be one of the tribes or a mixture of the tribes that stayed behind when the Aryan migration took place.

Altough other people say the original Aryan homeland was on the eastern side of the Caspean Sea stretching all the way to Nepal.  Another thing that is a mystery is the fact that no one really knows how close the various Aryan tribes were before they migrated. 

All in all though the Armanians are at least partly decended from the Aryan tribes.

PLEASE, READ!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Friends mine, i want to tell u a true history of ARMENIA

In fact there is no any nation in the world that calls ARMENIAN NATION, as mine, AZERBAIJANIAN-it it is the name of the place, which eve was not known untill1918, so we are turkish, AND THOSE armenian guys, that they told u so long and "interesting" history, believ me, is 99% is legend, which new armenian historians created. The real name of these guys are HI (HAY) and they knew it better thatn me, there is no any exact informations about where this Hies came, and what their nationality is in reality, Greek guy told that Armenia occupied all are betweenAnatolia and Caspian se, and part of Modern Iran.

I wanna ask u just one question:

WHO WAS SHAPUR?????????????????????????

Please, friend, believe me, i am not lier, because, i am turkish, and ARMENINAN guy knows that the only nation that they hate is TURKS, and i want:

*edit - only english language is allowed*

To tell u that Do knot read the books which Persians, or AnY western historians wrote, just read arabian, russian, chinese, indian books, just please, find ADAM MECH-RENEISSANCE book, and u will find who are armenians. I hope u will find!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1

You know that Armenians call themself as "Hay" and their land as Hayestan. If some one is from Hayestan and his/her ethnic origin is not Hay, than he/she is called as Hayestantzi. This is just like to say to be "Turk" or not Turk in ethnic origin but to  be "T�rkiyeli" (from Turkey).

And Armenians own the inheritance of many civilisations (Phyrigians, Hurries, Urartues, Mitannis), don't they.

Since I am a medical doctor, I want to talk you about an illness. FMF (Familial Mediterean Fever) is a disease seen in Anotolia, Armenia and Middle East. Many people from Turkey and Armenia have this disease. One having this illness says he is Turk if he lives in Turkey or he says he is Hay/Hayestantsi if he lives in Hayestan. In medical literature the illness has been called as the "Armenian disease" for years. But now genetically it has been proved that centuries ago a person of jewish family from Middle East from the descendants of Abraham had had a a specific mutation in his genes and members having his genes carried the illness to this century through their geographical migration. So we can say that people having FMF disease aren't Hay. Turk or etc, but are from a Jewish family of Middle East.

What I want to say? I am from Turkey. Genetic pools of Anotolia and Hayestan consists of a mixture of different genes.  

Please stop insulting Armenians.

[QUOTE=Maju] Anyhow, Armenians possibly were Phrygian colonists, at least that what Herodotus believed, and considering the apparent closeness between Greek, Phrygian and Armenian, it could well be the case. While more ancient Mitanni do seem to belong to Eastern IE group (also called Indo-Aryan or Indo-Iranian), Armenian language is a branch apart, maybe, if anything, close to Greek. 

hahaha Greek is related to indo Iranian langugaes... listen Phrygians moved in around 1000-800BC into central anitolia, Armenians where there way before hand. Armenia actually has alot more in common with Persia then greece, not just in liguistic ways but historical and culture. Even the music is similar

Please Stop all these Turkish nationals insulting Armenians, they are a people justified in their claims of being there first. There is a common history of Persia and Armenia, there is mixing of various peoples, as for the person from Azerbijan your country did not exist like Armenia did, and infact you are from Arran province which is Part of Iran, seperated due to Russian Invasion.

Even Arab, Indian, Russian and chinese books will say the same thing, there is no conspiracy as to it, just people who are too blinded by nationalism to see truth.

Turkey and Iran share history and mixing and language this is fact. Arran province is a result of this mixing and sharing.......

Nationalism is a desease on human kind, a blotch on the souls of men, a veil that covers the eyes of men....... a construct for the power hungry and feeble minded! (Aryan Khadem, 14th Oct, 2005)

Sharrukin (sorry for the late reply), I got my information from Encarta. Until the 19th century, linguists used to consider the Armenian language as a part of the greater family of Iranic languages.

Armenia and Georgia are the oldest nations in the Caucasus. Azeris are  from Central Asia, and they took Albanian and Armenian land. Caucasian Azerbaijan was formed early 20th century...

http://www.cilicia.com/Convenience.htm - http://www.cilicia.com/Convenience.htm  

http://www.cilicia.com/Plagiarism.htm - http://www.cilicia.com/Plagiarism.htm

Ok, sorry,

U know, it was not from me, It was My Hate Against this nation who has no history, But understand me, I wrote that because i know what they did with the defendless villagers in khojali, i know that and i want u know that all u Iranian guys, your opinions about Azerbaijan are false, I can Explain why u think so, because the Iranian shounism made u not to learn anything about your past, but in fact, I know my nationality and origin, the history of my country, rather well i know it, i can tell u it and explain, but i do not see any need because u will not belive me, I wrote some in Iranian Hitory part, if u are interested, u may go and see, but I do not deny that there was not any Armenian State, they had, But they never, and never created an Empire, belive me, I can write u,

Thank u,

And Also, the Hate To This Hayes is in my Heart , I cant made it off, It is my Goal, My life goal was founded against them, but from now, i will try not to show it.

There was also a big influx of Parthian nobility who fled to Armenia after the Sassanids took control of Iran, plus there was a lot of interaction during Safavid Iran who introduced Iran's Armenian population, I believe.

Ik, I agreed, short lived

I am serious, The all that I learned about Armenia, from school is that They had a republic B.C. and that They revolted Against Sasanids in 4th century, and that they were Atacked By Sanaturk-The Hun King of Albania, and that at 387 the traty between Sasanids and Rome end this Republic,

If u know, But do not write me ninsense, if u really will tell me your History i would learn it with the great pleasure, Especianlly if we are Enemies

Use this site for some fairly objective info about Armenian history.

http://www.armenica.org/ - http://www.armenica.org/

Why don't you tell us about Azerbaijani history? Don't talk about the Albanians, because the Albanians had more in common with Armenians than with Azeris. Albanians were Apostolic Christians, and they built churches similar to Armenian ones. Albanians also adopted an alphabet created by the same person who made the Armenian alphabet - Mesrob Mashdots, so the Albanian and Armenian languages had some similarities. Some of the non-Russian, and non-Armenian Christian churches of Azerbaijan even had Armenian inscriptions on them...

An Independant Azerbaijani country never existed in the Caucasus until 1918.

Even more ancient were the Orontid rulers of Armenia.  Their founder, Orontes/Orondas was originally from Bactria and was merely satrap of Eastern Armenia (401-344 BC), but married into the royal family.  His descendants were, therefore of royal Persian blood.  His son and successor Orontes II became independent of Persia.  The Orontids maintained a form of autonomy during the time of Alexander and the early Seleucids (they were "satraps" but kept the title of "king") but by about 223 BC they became actual Seleucid subjects.  The Orontid Dynasty ended by about 200 BC.

Ok,I am not going to give u The Wikipedia link, I will tell just myself:

In 9-8 century b.c., in Southern Caucasus, there are was little tribes, when even thae smell of Armenia did not came closer. During the same Period, part of these tribes (Udi, Udin, Naxch-Caucasian tribes) had already created a new Republic, which the name was Manna, this republic was not Turkic, because it was Caucasian, but not Armenian too. This Republic lived 2 centuries with friendship Assuria, and with enemy with Urarty (Which is not Armenia, it is another topic, do not write anything about it right now, we need discuss my history). Urartu was not Caucasian at all. After 2 centuries, the Tribes that was considered and shared the same culture with Turks, moved from Volga-Don steppe to south, and settled in the lands of Manna. Manna had no so superior army to fight against them, so even without asking, tey sattled here and created Cimmerian-Skytian khanate. But Manna did not fought against them, Manna was ally and was fighting together with Scytians against Media, which just created its republic. But Median king Fraorta Kashtariti defeated manna in 590 b.c. and Skytians moved back to the north. After 1 century Scytians settled and Created their new state in Ukrainan steppes.

So, todays Azerbaijan Lands were came to the rule of Media, and Then Persian republic-Acheamanid Empire. After the death of Alexander, in 223 b.c. Atropat (one of the favorite satraps of Alexander)  Decleared its freedom from seperating Seleucids empire, and at the same moment there was created Albania in the north. Atropatena (Today it is south Azerbiajan laying Along the caspian sea under Azerbaijan, it is in Iran) was bigger than Albania, and they together lived untill 30 b.c., They were not destroyed by Parthia, because, they were paid Parthian Empire for that, and they succesfully participated from the sides of Partian army against Romans. But in 66 b.c. and 65 b.c. Atropatena and Albania, and Georgia also, was atckded By Popmeius The Great, (2 battles we lost to him near the Qanix or Alazan (as georgians call) river) and then by Antonyius Marcus. After invading western Albania, Pompei turned to south, and Antony, after some years was defeated in the battle with Qazaaka city, and lost 44 000 men. Actually Parthian reinforcements vere the main reason of these defeat.

In 1 b.c. -1 a.d. Azerbaijan was atacked by Alan tribes which were came from moder Chchnias land and they accepted Parthian rule, and lived in the Valley between Great and Little Caucasus mountains.

In 224 a.d. Atropatena was Invaded by Sasanids, and in 262, Albania was invaded too. From this times, there was many revolts of Armenians against Shapur and e.t.c. In 4th century, Albania got its freedom for less than 50 years because Huns, moving from Asia to Europe, atacked and destroyed Sasanids army, And one of the Leaders whose name was Sanaturk,  Atacked with 30-40 thousant huns to the capital of Armenia (i do not know the name) and was defeated and killed there by Byzantium and Georgian-Iberian army. After this, sasanids again gained control on Albania. With the Help of Albania-Atropatenian army, Sasanids 2 times (447/472) won Byzanto-Roman army.

In the Later 6 century, when arabians began atacking to Persia, and in the mid-7th century Albania Got independence. This times, Azerbaijan had already speake the Turkic because of Alan tribes. The name of Tis state was Girdman, which mostly was christian as Albania. Atropena never was Christian. It was Zoroastrianism untill Arabian invade in 650s.

After Arabians came, untill mid-9th centyry we were under them and revolts from 719 to 836 under Cavidan And Babek (which was the part of the Xurremid or Hurremid  revolution in all Arabian halifate, especially during the Xailfe Muaviyye, Harrun ar Rashid and his son.

Firs Independent half Turkic state created in 845-name was Sachi state, and there was more than 12 states in whole north and south Azerbaijan and there were more than 6 or 7 big states in all Xalifats lands as Egypt, Lybia, andalus , Syria and e.t.c.

from 9-11 century, there was feudal separatism in Azerbaijan and during that period more than 500 000 oguz turks moved Azerbaijan because of Chinese, Kharesmshah, Samanid empires wars.

in the early 12th century, more than 1 million Oguz-seljuc tribes moved to Anatolia, and They also captured the capital of Abbasid Xilafet-Bagdad.

Seljucs under Togrul adn Chagri bey captured all those little states and made them together under Seljuc empire. only one of them-The Shirvanshahs in the Easter part of Azerbaijan which Baku was their capital-stayed free with payin gold and sending armies.

After seljucs, there was created many little states in whole empire, and their names was Atebeys. Azerbaijan was came under the rule of the Teacher of Miranshahs son, the next sultan of Anatolian Atabeks. after this, we were atacked by Mongolian-Turkish invansion 3 times. And the last one, was Hulaku state, which lived untill Timur;s invansion, and which made end of Abbasid xalifat.

When Timur came her, he migrated more than 400 000 oguz turks from central asia to Azerbaijan and Iran.  So in the beginning of 15th century 2 big empires-Akhkoyunlu and Karakoyunlu states were 90% turkish.

They ruled more than 100 years together, and in 16th century, The Kizilbash Shah Ismail Xetai, in 1501, created new republic which was named Safavids.Its language was Turkish, and there are many letters were found in Tabriz which was belonged to this empire. It lasted from Ottoman Empire till modern Asghanistan, but only in later 17th century, with the beginning of Shah Abbas, its government was decleared Iranian, and language changed to Persian. That is why, Those guys from Iran call Sfavids as Iranian.

In 1727, This empire found its end because, non-turkish Nadir shah, which was lived and grown up in Turkish Afshar tribes in South Azerbaijan, In the place of modern Azerbaijan republic, in the village where 2 rivers-Kura and Araz are being together-He decleared New ranian State, and this State or Empire lasted untill 1747, when more than 25 little khanates were created in Northern and southern Azerbaijan.

In 1780-90 this khanates were invaded by Aga Muhammed Shah Qacar, which was Turkish and came from Turkish nomadic tribe-Qacars-and ruled Iran untill 1922 or 24.

After it, In 1811-12 and 1827-28 years there was a war between Russia and Iran, and they divide Azerbaijan in 2 parts, in 1812-GULUSTAN treat, and in 1827-Turkmenchay treat. From that time Southern Azerbaijan is under Iran, and Those Turkish guys began to call thimselves as Azeri and began to say that we are not Turkish, we Are Another Azeri, which is Iranian nation

And from 1812 nad 1827 Northern Azerbaijan was under Russian Empire. It got its independence in 1918 and This was The first Dempcratic Republic in the Asia. Turkish troops about 200000 under NURU PASHA was destroyed all the Armenian "Great" warriors and Russian troops and stayed in Baku untill 1920 when England-Turkish treat agreed to take Nuru pasha and Turkic troops out of Azerbaijan, but Nakichevan was under turkey yet.

In 1920, Lenin destroyed Denikins army in Northern Caucasus-in Chechniya, and atacked and captured BAKU.

From that time, Untill 1991 Azerbaijan was under USSR.

In 1991 we got our Independence by Abulfaz Elchibey. In 1992, with the help of Russian troops, Armenia atacked To Nothern Karabakh, to the villages which had no any defence (because, USSR did not gave us any army when he was destroyed). The Army-voluteers of Azerbaijan government, kicked them back till The post border, but new leader Haydar Aliyev, which was post Soviet KQB or FBI, took the trone without democracy and ordered to take any defence from Karabakh and just let Armenia to occupy this lands (Becouse he was 75% kurdish and 25% turkish) .

Today, we have 8.5 million population, wery good army which has generals from Turkey and Azerbaijan, wery good technology and economy. So we have power just atack and take back our lands, becouse Armenian population is no more than even 3 million people, and this "brave" guys know that we have such power, but we just are waiting and want to make peace. The borders are not open with Armenia from Azerbaijan and Turkey.

So, That is my History, I do not know if are will believe me, or not, but it reality. If u wanna know from Any of This History part or State Widely, with the great pleasure i would do that.

Thank u.

I can Also write u about the history of Irevan city, which is now the cApital of Armenia.

I am waiting for your answer

Also, if u want, I may open a new discussion forum About Urartu, that it is not Armenian!

Jannisary, consider it as an informal warning. Derogatory remarks to national or ethnic groups are against A.E policy.

Please re-read AE Code of Conduct.

http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=1338&PN=1 - http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=1338& ;PN=1

Why all these Turkish nationalists? There is only one in here, so stop generalising. Armenia existed since the ancient times. No need to discuss on such things...

Republic of Azerbaijan is on ancient Albania, it doesnt belong to Persians nor Romans just because they once invaded it.

Urartu also ruled much of Eastern-southeastern Asia minor, so I guess Armenians were a dominant subject with the other natives of the land.

Noone is an enemy for you, it may be the government of the country, but not all its people. And such political relationships shouldnt effect the understanding of historical issues. Please calm down and continue the discussion in a civilized way...

Shah,

I did not wrote anything bad, Just read carefully, I just wrote what i know, becouse they want it from me

And u, Armenian guy, please, do not talk about Azerbaijan history, please

It is Armenian history topic

Republic of Azerbaijan is on ancient Albania, it doesnt belong to Persians nor Romans just because they once invaded it.

Then I suggest you look closer shahanshah

According to the footnote of my source the information about Orontes' Bactrian origin is found in Orientis Graeci Inscriptiones (OGI) #364 which also mentions that his father was named Artasyras.  His name in Middle Persian would be Arvand coming from an Old Persian form Arvant-.  A source:

http://www.cais-soas.com/CAIS/Personal_Names/orontes.htm - http://www.cais-soas.com/CAIS/Personal_Names/orontes.htm

I did not told u Armenian History my friend, I told u what I know from This!!!

Read clearly, please, I did not mentioned Armenia untill 20 century becouse I do not know about it, but ot becouse i do not wanna accept it, ok???

So, stop atacking on me

And u, Paul, Yes, Today in my holy motherland i have 1 000 000 refuges who are the result of Your war, and that is why u are my Enemy, I will consider everybody who has Armenian blood as my enemy untill the day of revange, and that is my business, ok?

I am not against u in this forum, I just wanna u to write me something true about your History, if u do not want that, it is ok, but do not give me any web sites, ok???

I have plenty of them and all of them are different abot 1 source.

Thats enough Janissary. You were requested before in this thread to improve ur attitude towards other members and ethnic groups, yet you chose to ignore it. This is not a place for nationalistic remarks. You will find an official last warning in ur pm inbox.

Calm down men, come on

Lets return discussion, please

Now u write me The things that Are in Armenian True Hitory and Against my Article about Azerbaijan History

I am really interested

Originally posted by [ARM Paul]Jannisary !! I can tell you something the Armenian people isn't finish with Azerbaijan yet. You and your Muslim nation will be destroyed!

An official warning also for you [ARM]Paul for violations of A.E policy. If i see one more post like that the thread will be closed.

Exactly, and all the maps that Hay or Persian guys will give u, just do not believe them

Our earliest description of Armenia comes from Herodotus:

The source of the Euphrates was from Armenia (Book 1.180)

It was north of Assyria (Book 1.194)

Its northern boundary was near the Black Sea (Book 3.93)

Its western boundary was the Euphrates (Book 5.52)

Its eastern boundary was Matiene (Book 5.52)

Matiene comprehended the region about Lake Urmiya, which was in ancient times called the Matienian Lake, but also included the northernmost part of the Tigris.  It was part of a Persian tributary district which also included Saspiria and Alarodia (Herodotus, Book 3.94).  We know that Saspiria was north of Matiene, bounded in the west by Colchis and in the southeast by Media (Book 1.104).  Saspiria therefore comprehended the later northeastern part of Armenia and Matiene was the southeastern part of later Armenia.  This leaves Alarodia which was not described by Herodotus, but fortunately we can see that it was the Greek name for the more ancient Urartu, which was the region around Lake Van. 

The Persians simply knew all these districts together as Armina, but original Armenia, (that is, the land of the Armenians, themselves) was simply the western part of the Persian land of Armenia.  Eastern Armenia comprised districts of other populations which the Armenians assimilated as time passed.  By 400 BC we actually know of a satrapy of Western Armenia and a satrapy of Eastern Armenia, which eventually became one in the Hellenistic age.

Yeah, the Name of the land is Armenian, but Hays where are from????

I never learned, I think u will understand me and respect me, but I never was taought about Armenian history as U Hay guys has no information about Azerbaijan (or porbably they're wrong) but I really know that there is a land someweher in Middle Asia that Hays lived, and I do not believe that this land was modern Armenia, I heard that it is in modern Livan or something like that...

The origin of the name "Armenia", itself is rather problematic.  We have detailed descriptions of the geography of Armenia by the Assyrians and Urartians, but the name does not occur within Urartu itself.  There is a geographic name, "Arme", to the southwest of Urartu, found in Urartean inscriptions of the king Argishti I which was subject to three invasions.  Arme was also subject to three invasions by his successor Sarduri III.  On the second of these occasions, the Urarteans encountered an Assyrian army.  The outcome on this occasion was that the Urarteans seemingly got the best of the encounter, at a tme when the Assyrians were facing problems at home.  This district of Arme, perhaps the "Urme" of Assyrian inscriptions seemed to have been located in the mountainous district of Shubria, to the northwest of Mesopotamia.

This general region seemed to have been subject to invasion from Anatolia.  We know of hordes known collectively as Mushki which invaded the region about 1165 BC and proceeded to invade Assyria by about 1115 BC but were defeated just outside of Assyria by Tiglathpileser I.  The remnant of the horde may have settled Shubria.  We know that in the reign Ashurnasirpal, the Assyrian king encountered Mushki in that general region.  If this remnant of the Mushki may have gained their name from the name of the land Arme, we may then have a correlate with early classical sources, (i.e. Herodotus) who locate the "Armenians" in "western Armenia". 

The name "Hayk" or "Hay" is just as problematic.  Some attribute it to the name of a nation to the northeast of the Hittites named Hayasa (otherwise known as Azzi).  On the collapse of the Hittite empire, we no longer have information about this kingdom.  Its geographical position approximated northwestern classical Armenia.  Since we don't know the precise route the Mushki took on its way toward Assyria, an idea may have been that perhaps some Mushki, on the collapse of the Hittite Empire, c. 1180 BC conquered Hayasa, where they took the name of the kingdom.  These "Hay" Mushkians then conquered northeastern districts of the Assyrians where they settled in "Arme".  The conclusion may be then, that among themselves, they were "Hay", but to outsiders who only knew of the land of "Arme", they were "Armenians".   This is pure conjecture, of course.

ok

I am The same Janissary just they kicked me out, so I entered again