Look " Arms and Armour of the Nomads of the Great Steppe in the Times of the Mongol Expansion"
by Witold �wi�tos�awski

http://www.amazon.ca/exec/obidos/ASIN/838587402X/quickclick04-20/701-4882081-8378752 - http://www.amazon.ca/exec/obidos/ASIN/838587402X/quickclick0 4-20/701-4882081-8378752

or

Osprey's " The Mongols" by Stephen Turnbull

http://www.amazon.ca/exec/obidos/ASIN/0850453720/qid=1118325936/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_0_1/701-4882081-8378752 - http://www.amazon.ca/exec/obidos/ASIN/0850453720/qid=1118325 936/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_0_1/701-4882081-8378752

Mongolian heavy cavalrymen

Here are two paintings of Mongol Cavalry:

Mongol Cavalryman

Mongol Cavalry in battle

Here are videocaps from the television series "Genghis Khan."  Before anyone would argue that the series is inaccurate (inaccuracies are unavoidable), I would like to point out that it was filmed in Inner Mongolia and most of the actors (including the actor who played Genghis Khan) were Mongols.  The producers and directors tried to portray 13th century Mongolia as accurately as possible given the available historical texts and sources.

It is of interest to note that the series "Genghis Khan" was released five years after production, after undergoing strenous scrutiny and revision because of the controversial ethnic and religious issues that arised after 9-11 and the War in Iraq.

Genghis Khan

Genghis Khan with his helmet

Genghis Khan's first wife Borte, mother of Jochi, Chagatai, Ogedei, and Toulei

Mongol war camp

Genghis Khan with his camp

Genghis Khan with his generals (the second general from the right is Subutai)

Genghis Khan on horseback

These are real Mongols.  The actor for Genghis Khan is an ethnic Mongol.  So is the actress for Genghis Khan's first wife Borte.  These are not Chinese.  I repeat, they are real Mongols.

According to the book "The Devil's horsemen: the Mongol invasion of Europe" the standard Mongol "uniform" consisted of several layers. The bottom layer was a pair of blue or gray trousers and a silk shirt (silk winds around an arrowhead as it penetrates, making it easier to pull the arrows out later). Next was a brown or blue felt robe. Colored trim on the cuffs, borders and collars of these robes indicated rank--officers got silver or gold trim, all others got red or blue trim. In winter, when these robes were lined with fur and the trim was hidden, different types of fur were used to indicate rank. Heavy cavalry riders wore over this a coat of mail and a cuirass of iron or hard leather scales. On their heads they wore cone-shaped iron helmets with thick leather neck-curtains that could be fastened in front to guard the throat. Light cavalry riders wore a cuirass of laquered leather strips or sometimes just a heavy padded robe. On their heads they wore either hard leather helmets or traditional fur-trimmed Mongol caps. Heavy and light cavalry riders were both required to carry a wicker shield covered in thick leather, two bows (long and short range), at least two quivers, a lasso, and a dagger strapped to the left forearm. Light cavalry riders carried short swords while heavy cavalry carried Mongol scimitars. Heavy cavalry riders also carried a battle axe or mace and a 12 foot hooked spear. Costumes differed slightly from tribe to tribe, so there were many different variations of armor. This is just the general style.

Here's a great site about the armor of steppe people.

http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Olympus/3505/ - http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Olympus/3505/

beautiful???ok!!!!

you must still be 16 years old 

uzbeks

the only thing about the tv series i dont like based on the pictures is that it looks like all of the actors are old, im sure most of the mongol army was younger then portrayed in those images, maybe in their 20's and early 30's. the men in those photos are late 30's and 40's, thus not as handsome as they could be haha

when and where is the tv series ghengis khan aired? in the US?

Genghis Khan is not a young warrior.  His greatest accomplishments came after the age of 40.  According to Genghis Khan and the Making of the Modern World, most of the commanding Mongol generals during Genghis Khan's campaigns were approaching their forties.  Subutai, Muquali, Jebe, Borrchu, and Jelieme were all past their forties by the time Genghis Khan, at the age of 57, decided to campagin against Khawarism.  It is also worth mentioning that the famed Subutai joined the Mongol campaign against Europe in the 1230s and early 1240s when he was approaching the age of 70!!!!!

Originally posted by Drunt Ba'adur Originally posted by poirot Originally posted by kermit_criminal the only thing about the tv series i dont like based on the pictures is that it looks like all of the actors are old, im sure most of the mongol army was younger then portrayed in those images, maybe in their 20's and early 30's. the men in those photos are late 30's and 40's, thus not as handsome as they could be haha when and where is the tv series ghengis khan aired? in the US?     Genghis Khan is not a young warrior.  His greatest accomplishments came after the age of 40.  According to Genghis Khan and the Making of the Modern World, most of the commanding Mongol generals during Genghis Khan's campaigns were approaching their forties.  Subutai, Muquali, Jebe, Borrchu, and Jelieme were all past their forties by the time Genghis Khan, at the age of 57, decided to campagin against Khawarism.  It is also worth mentioning that the famed Subutai joined the Mongol campaign against Europe in the 1230s and early 1240s when he was approaching the age of 70!!!!! aaaaa, sorry, you are talking about the generals and commanders, not about soldiers/warriors. In almost all wars the general were old men and the soldiers between 16 to 30s... Are you are really beliving that Temujin fought in battles being 40 years old? It's impossible I think, as someone before said, that some characters are a bit too old.

Yes, I am talking about the generals and commanders.  Temujin did not fight in most of his later battles, only commanded them, that is true.  Nevertheless, in the age of iron weapons, situations in which generals must take personal combat in battles were unavoidable.  And to counter your view that most generals are old men, I point to Alexander the Great.  However, it is true that most Mongol generals under the command of Genghis Khan were veterans in their middle age.

As to your viewpoint of the characters being too old, the characters shown all play generals, commanders, and administrators, not soldiers.  And Genghis Khan does not stay young throughout his entire life.  Not many historical characters are as handsome and cleanshaven as Brad Pitt.

edited

cliveersknell:

Here is my feedback on the television series:

a. I would have enjoyed it more if the series were filmed in Mongolian with Chinese or English subtitles.  I prefer historical authenticity.

b. The series blantantly glorifies Genghis Khan and salutes him as an "unifier" of China.  It (at least the introduction) supports a popular notion that Genghis Khan was a Chinese hero.  I disagree.

c. The series does not dwell deeply on Genghis Khan's campaign west against Kwararsim Shah and the Kipchaks.  This is, however, because of extensive film editing.  There is a legitimate reason: the issues touched by Genghis Khan's western campaign is too controversial, given the events following 9-11 and the war in Afghanistan.

d. Besides the above mentioned complaints, I found the series to be one of the most historically accurate ever fillmed.  I am very very glad that it is not another John Wayne hopelessly impersonating a Mongolian warrior.  These actors are REAL MONGOLIANS!  They were willing to take a huge pay cut because of their genuine interest in their work.  The historical details, such as Genghis Khan's youth, his rivalry with Jamuga, his campaigns against various states, and the rivalry between Jochi and Chagatai, are relatively accurate, compared to many inaccurate and blantantly shameful television series and movies today.  In addition, Teng Ge Er's song at the end is a blast.

believe it, Bl�cher was in his 70s when he fought at Waterlo.

Some mongol armour from the invasion of Japan

http://chinese-armour.freewebspace.com/images/arm11a.jpg - http://chinese-armour.freewebspace.com/images/arm11a.jpg

These pictures are beautiful! Thank you all very much for taking the time to do this. I am in the midst of redoing my own lamellar and these pictures are very helpful in making it more authentic. Please post whatever you find!

Thank you!

Animal

You are welcome, here is some more

OH NEAT!  WOW!

Mord.

Now, that I'm over being ashtonished, I must admit that Vulkan02's posts of pictures (where did you get them?) solve some problem is Early Medieval Carolingian armor.  There's been an arguement over whether the body armor was mail or lammelar--now seeing how the lammelar looks and hangs gives more backing to the lammelar point of view.

Thanks very much.

Mord.

Thanks.

Also, try: http://www.uakron.edu/china/ch-armor.html - www.uakron.edu/china/ch-armor.html

Mord

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v95/ratangei/Me.jpg - http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v95/ratangei/Me.jpg

This is my lamellar. Thanks to you who posted pictures, you helped a lot. I appreciate it.

Originally posted by poirot Nice! Is that you wearing the lamellar?  You look like a famous Celtic Chieftan!!!

Yah, that's me. My actual heritage is Celtic but for the hobby I do I like the Mongol stuff way better. It's a blast learning about that history and I appreciate all the help from you folks.

   didn't mean to be an arse...but those sneakers?

You arent being an arse at all, those are in fact cleats. I have a foot drop which resulted from paralysis. They corrected most of my problems with surgery but they couldnt correct that. So I find when I fight outside on grass I need the cleats or else I have a world of problems. I tried my ass off to make the proper boots to cover them, but I couldnt figure out how to do the toes properly. So I did the best I could and that was to make the upper parts of the boots and put them on over top of the cleats. From a distance it looks ok. I'm not happy with the looks 100% but for now its a lot better than just the cleats alone. Since this isnt choreographed fighting there are performance issues I have to contend with as well as looking the best I can historically.

I'm in the middle with the red spear in this shot, you get a better idea of hte whole effect.

from mongolian movie "Chingis Khaan"

another pic

these are real mongols in a real mongol movie

"uukhaai..."

how the f**k would chinese look like that! we look like this~

The armor from Han Wu Da Di is highly inaccurate.  Great series and songs, but not very accurate in terms of military uniform.  Clay figurines dating from the Former Han Dynasty show that Han infantry did not have plate armor, and Former Han soldiers rarely wore metal helms that covered the head entirely.   The helms shown are more indicative of the Northern Wei helms circa 500 A.D. 

The series can be ordered at the following link, It's the third one from the bottom. Even tho it's in Mandarin it's a great series. It covers his life from birth to his death.

http://us.yesasia.com/en/Search/SearchResult.aspx - http://us.yesasia.com/en/Search/SearchResult.aspx  

these mongols look like shigatse tibetans...hehehe

chingiz looks like my dad.

According to Carpini, shields were rare, and were mostly used on guard-duty

Reynolds' drawing resembles a timurid cavalryman rather than a 13th century mongol

Turnbull of course isn't an authority on Mognols anyways, and the book is mediocre to say at least...

re: shields. well, Gorelik, who is the authority on Steppe archaeology (armoury & weapons) always depicts Mongols with shields, including heavy cavalry, but then, he always only shows warriors which have the hgihest possible status and the most armour & equippment possible,s till i think shields are fairly common for mongols and not uncommon for heavy cavalry, Timurs heavy cavalry and heavy cavalry of Mamelukes for example also used shields.

correct

As stated earlier shields were not widely used by Mongol heavy cavalry.  In eastern armies, shields were not widely used by cavalry.  As the Mongols traveled further west more of them adopted the use of a shield, still it wasn't the norm.

Ch

The picture is a total nonsense. The Monghol warrior is shown carrying a Chinese sword called Liuyedao  furnished in a style of the 19-20th century. Anybody interested in ancient Monghol weapons, particularly armour, should get a book by Gorelik " Weapons of the Ancient East" Atlant Publishers, 2004 , Moscow-St. Petersburgh. It is in Russian, though...

This is actually a Tatar warrior's armor, but i think its similar enough because they were in the same horde though different tribe ...

http://imageshack.us">

What do you mean by standard equipment?  Do you mean a person should have the standardized stuff such as a bow, quiver, lasso, horse, saddle, etc or do you mean the equipment had to be the same as all the others in their unit?  By 'same' I mean same style of armour, same clothing and so forth. 

Yes, you are correct, they were punished if their equipment was not kept in proper order and maintained properly.

don't be fool idiot.

i think uzbek people look like eskimos.

*Tatar... the turkic peoples who were a part of the Golden Horde invading Eastern Europe (Russia, Ukraine etc.)

and yes they were a part of the Ottoman Empire in the 17th century, live in the areas of Tatarstan and Crimea(southern Ukraine). They were known as the Crimean Khanate after the breaking of the Horde.

(based on my research "Tartar" with the "r" was the work of European change that started from the "Tatary"(just used as the areas Tatars lived at) made related to "Tartarus" from Greek mythology )

 *and PLEASE dont confuse Tatars with Mongols ... ive seen many mistakes like this in western(actually American  ) history books etc. Tatars were turkic while Mongols were mongoloid

Originally posted by ahiska camokagurth wroye  *and PLEASE dont confuse Tatars with Mongols ... ive seen many mistakes like this in western(actually American  ) history books etc. Tatars were turkic while Mongols were mongoloid Dude Turks are mongoloid(mostly) so are chinese and japanese. the term monogoloid is used to point out a genetic hmmm.. something that links several races to gether. It's Mongoloid, Caucasoid, Negroid and few more.

Turks are mixed of Mongoloid and caucasoid since the beginning of their existance chinese sources points out that turks(xiong-nu,tujue and some others) has some caucasian features like strong hair growth. Of course percantage of caucasian-mongoloid mixture changed over time