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Treason or free speech?????(Americans)

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URL: http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=3870
Printed Date: 28-Mar-2024 at 06:59
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Topic: Treason or free speech?????(Americans)
Posted By: eaglecap
Subject: Treason or free speech?????(Americans)
Date Posted: 08-Jun-2005 at 16:09
I cannot stop someone from posting but I would like the opinions of Americans because only an American would fully understand the feeling of patriotism towards our great nation, as imperfect as it is. I invite Muslim American opinion!! For now I will keep my opinion to myself. I ask that non-Americans please honor my request.

"Oh Muslims! Do you know your enemy? Isn't it obvious?"

Here is a video of American Muslims stomping on and then ripping up an American flag. Just before they rip it up one of them places a sign on it that says, "Oh Muslims! Do you know your enemy? Isn't it obvious?"

But if we even ask how many Muslims in America think this way, CAIR will bellow about discrimination and Islamophobia. So attention is diverted from activities such as what is shown in this video, and they can continue unheeded.

(Thanks to all who sent this in.)

go to link and watch the video!

http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/006556.php#comments - http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/006556.php#comments



Replies:
Posted By: strategos
Date Posted: 08-Jun-2005 at 20:18

OH THE IRONY. At one point they say something such as : Muslims, dont be afraid to come out and speak against the governement, it is not like your countries back at home were you raise your voice at the governemtn and get tortured or whatnot..

I think this video is alot of BULLsh*t, it is legal to get a permit to rip up a flag and step on it?? I think this freedom of speach should Not be allowed.  They have no respect f or the US or its people. The term my ancient greek ancestors would call them are barbaric..



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Posted By: TheodoreFelix
Date Posted: 08-Jun-2005 at 20:21
Is jihadwatch some kind of sanctuary for you eagle?

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Posted By: Kentuckian
Date Posted: 08-Jun-2005 at 20:23

i know this is ignorant but i am going to say it anyway.  they should go back to where they came from and raise goats or something. (nothing against MErners, but i can't stand people like this, MErners or otherwise.)



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"I have not yet begun to fight." - John Paul Jones

"America will win through absolute victory" - President Franklin Roosevelt

"This was our finest hour." - Winston Churchill


Posted By: Illuminati
Date Posted: 08-Jun-2005 at 20:48
I'd be curious to seee what would happen to them if they were to burn the Saudi flag in Saudi Arabia.

But honestly. I don't care. Let them burn the flag. Hatred is answered by hatred. The more they do it, the more Americans grow to dislike them. And they will never accomplish their goals if they keep turning people against them.


If they were really smart they would protest peacefully and respectfully and lobby congressman and senators. Arabs have the stereotype of being fanatical and violent for their cause. This kind of protesting only works to reinforce those stereotypes. 

In a democracy where the ballot is more effective than the bullet, appearing fanatical is the worst thing you can do to get your way.


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Posted By: eaglecap
Date Posted: 08-Jun-2005 at 23:26
Originally posted by Iskender Bey ALBO

Is jihadwatch some kind of sanctuary for you eagle?



I do not know quite what you mean by sanctuary, but I consider it a very credible source although there are some on this forum who may not agree.

I have very deep roots in this nation, and I even though our country is not perfect, I am very patriotic. What these people are doing in that video is nothing short of treason and sedition. I agree with the Kentuckian that if they don't like here then go home. But I also agree with Illuminati that they more the act this way the more the will increase the stereo type that some American have of Muslims. Did you watch the video?


Posted By: Illuminati
Date Posted: 09-Jun-2005 at 01:43
I would  also like to add, that the US Supreme court has ruled more than once that this is a perfectly legal form of protest.

personally, I want it to remain that way and not jsut because we shouldn't be taking a bottle of white-out to the bill of rights. The people who burn the flag often have very differing viewpoints than me and by all means I want them to alienate themselves so they don't get their way.


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Posted By: eaglecap
Date Posted: 09-Jun-2005 at 01:59
Originally posted by Illuminati

I would also like to add, that the US Supreme court has ruled
more than once that this is a perfectly legal form of protest.

personally, I want it to remain that way and not jsut because we
shouldn't be taking a bottle of white-out to the bill of rights. The
people who burn the flag often have very differing viewpoints than me
and by all means I want them to alienate themselves so they don't get
their way.



It is not so much the flag burning but what they said they I feel is treason and a threat. I am use to flag burning and while it does not make me happy you are right about the U.S. supreme court ruling but that is not the issue here.


Posted By: jito
Date Posted: 16-Jun-2005 at 02:28
Well Emperor I agree with you that a flag carries a lot of
patriotic symbolism and in some way deserves respect. it is not
a matter of nationality, trust me, any flag carries the same
weight for the people who honors it. therefore i feel the same
way. however, as the flag represents all the values of the US,
so it represents freedom of speach. and personally i think that
not reacting to it is the best way to stop all the hate that such
actions create. I profundly respect the american flag, as i do
with most of the flags in the world, but do not forguet that it does
not represent anything different than what the country it sel
does. (country meaning its people, values and government)
Comments like they should all return and stuff like that has no
point. they are here for some reason that we do not know and
problably the great majority is not looking foward to harm us but
rather to live in peace. that peace that their flac and country
does not offer. so keep in mind that strong fellings and heat in
your mind make you see things worst and that generates
prejudice and discrimination.

take it easy!!!!!!!

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MJG


Posted By: Seko
Date Posted: 16-Jun-2005 at 09:12

Growing up in the Vietnam era as an American youngster I saw alot of U.S. flag burning on tv. Didn't know why they did it at the time. Why did our own college age kids do such a thing? Or maybe they were a bunch of disrespectful hippies sharing their angst. Oh, I don't know. Such a long time ago, you know.

Since then we've got flags on bathing suits, underwear and you name it. We have become desensitized to disrespect. Or is it a form of personal patriotic duty that our lovers of the flag display? Sounds weird still to this day.



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Posted By: hugoestr
Date Posted: 16-Jun-2005 at 17:35
The day that we begin imprisoning people for flag burning is the day that American democracy dies.

Judging from many of the responses to this thread, it seems that we are getting closer and closer to an American dictatorship.

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Posted By: ArmenianSurvival
Date Posted: 16-Jun-2005 at 19:35
Originally posted by hugoestr

The day that we begin imprisoning people for flag burning is the day that American democracy dies.

Judging from many of the responses to this thread, it seems that we are getting closer and closer to an American dictatorship.


Glad im not the only one who sees this.


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Posted By: Imperator Invictus
Date Posted: 16-Jun-2005 at 22:13
I would  also like to add, that the US Supreme court has ruled more than once that this is a perfectly legal form of protest.


The current legal standing that has been established for a while is that free speech is allowed as long as it does not present a clear and present danger to the state. So if you can't show that someone burning the flag is presenting danger to the government, it's legal under the constution.


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Posted By: SearchAndDestroy
Date Posted: 17-Jun-2005 at 15:25

It really does saddens me to see people like this abuse their freedoms. To say that its obvious Americans are the enemy when they are living in a country their so called enemy created, and that gives them the freedoms like all the other citizens. That flag represents the courage and blood spilled by those who have faught and still fight under that flag for our freedom.

At the same time I believe people should have the freedom to do this to express themselves, but there are def other ways... I didn't see it, but it does break my heart to hear it.



Posted By: jdb777
Date Posted: 18-Jun-2005 at 18:03

I would agree that the American flag on bathing suits, clothing is in its on way a disrespect to the country but burning one takes it to a malicious level...I have long believed that it is the polical correct democracy of America that is eventually going to destroy her... America cannot please every American and when an American states the he/she hates America then they are no longer entitled to their opinion on this good soil. Too many brave men died to see that Flag raised high over this land than to see a bunch of ignorant fools desecrating it on this soil; if they do not like it then leave, we dont wont you here and you evedently dont wont to be here!

Now to address the Islam issue it has long been noted in the prophesies of Nostradomas and Malachy that its Europe not America that should be worried about the Mohemmedans(if you believe in that stuff)...but America has the right to defend herself against all enemies and if that means red flagging all Islamic believers to catch these radical terrorist, then it is a sad action that must be taken.



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"It is well war is so terrible, lest we grow to fond of it." Robert E. Lee


Posted By: eaglecap
Date Posted: 19-Jun-2005 at 14:36
I know it is often done as a statement but if someone in the U.S. hates it so much then leave!!!
The video of the Muslims in Queens, New York stomping on our flag did not bother me as much as the words of treason they spoke. (in this area it would have turned into a violent confrontation, most likely) The people in E. Washington tend to be conservative and very patriotic, they love the flag!! I went through a small town in Montana and most every house had an American flag and it is common here as well.

They were radical exterme Muslims and talked about the conquest of America by their form of Islam and the dhimitude of non-Muslims, whether they hated or not too bad!! I do not forsee this type of take over in my life but it still made me angry. I was happy to see that most of the Muslims in that area were not like these radicals. We have very few Muslims here but in a few cities they are the majority, like Deerborne, MI.


the flag I love next:



Posted By: SearchAndDestroy
Date Posted: 19-Jun-2005 at 15:11
I like that flag of the screaming eagle. I think use it as a wall paper, very nice.


Posted By: eaglecap
Date Posted: 21-Jun-2005 at 17:04
http://www.fotosearch.com/comp/BDX/BDX280/bxp48283.jpg

I have the Greek flag on my bumper sticker but it is falling off so I will try and get one of my Greek friends to send me another from Greece!!

It has a cross on it so I imagine some in a certain faith would find it offenesive and if they ever became dominate in Greece they would probably demand its removal. Some radicals have asked for the removal of the cross on the British flag and the removal of crosses in Italian schools, mostly foriegners. When in Rome do as the Romans do!!!

Am I so insensitive!!!


Posted By: Tobodai
Date Posted: 22-Jun-2005 at 08:31

I persoanlly have very negative views to people that move to a country only to speak of its evils.  If you dont like the west then dont come to the west!  Clearly the reason is money, but even still, at least acknowledge why you immigrated.

That being said on the other side I find the views of Americans on AE totally scary.  Of course anyone should be allowed to burn a flag, who the hell cares?  Not something I would do but Ill defend someoens right to do it.  The US is about freedom for the individual and I think the proto facists on AE dont repsect that.  Remember our foudning fathers were traitors to their country, many great reformers and nation founders are technically traitors.  America needs to be loved by its citizens, but it also needs to love the citizens that dont love it.  Knowing our weaknesses and having to respond to criticizm can only help our society.  Even silly religious fanatics from the ME should not be removed, although we sure can make fun of them anyway.



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"the people are nothing but a great beast...
I have learned to hold popular opinion of no value."
-Alexander Hamilton


Posted By: SearchAndDestroy
Date Posted: 22-Jun-2005 at 21:32

Have you noticed that all of us Americans agree and disagree on differ levels of politics though? We all seems to fall into left and right-wing and everything in between. Some views we share, and some we don't, that is being American to speak out on what you agree and disagree with.

Seems all us Americans have our own point of views that clash with each other, but we all, or atleast most of us still love our country, maybe not the current adminstration though.... Some on the board think we should take a more Christian conservative point of views because our forefathers were Christian, but we also had a Satanist who was apart of the hellfire club(I think thats what it was called, if you know correct me) and that forefather was one of the most important, Benjamin Franklin. Maybe we should adopt some Satanist ideals too



Posted By: strategos
Date Posted: 22-Jun-2005 at 22:26
Originally posted by Tobodai

  America needs to be loved by its citizens, but it also needs to love the citizens that dont love it. 

Why?



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Posted By: hugoestr
Date Posted: 23-Jun-2005 at 10:39
Originally posted by strategos

Originally posted by Tobodai


America needs to be loved by its citizens, but it also needs to love the citizens that dont love it.



Why?



Because that is democracy. Just because I dislike something about another group doesn't mean that I can legally go after them.

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Posted By: SearchAndDestroy
Date Posted: 23-Jun-2005 at 12:28
Its also how america is. Theres always a group in America that doesn't like how things are done and they can fight for that change. We may not like it at first, or may never, but we have to give those people some say and a chance if its not violent.


Posted By: eaglecap
Date Posted: 23-Jun-2005 at 16:05
Originally posted by hugoestr

Originally posted by strategos

Originally posted by Tobodai


America needs to be loved by its citizens, but it also needs to love the citizens that dont love it.



Why?



Because that is democracy. Just because I dislike something about another group doesn't mean that I can legally go after them.


I would agree that a ban on flag burning or stomping is not the way to go. I also have the right to walk up and tell someone what I think about them desocrating our flag. I would only resort to fista cuffs if they attempted to attack me, then lights out for them.

Being a democracy should not give them the so-called free speech to call for the overthrow of our government and forcing Islamic law on us, in a time of war.
They should be arrested and charged with treason, deported if they are not citizens.

I would love to see them try this in some of the small towns I passed through in Montana with an American flag in front of almost every home, even in Spokane or Cheney it would not be wise for them. (I mean desocrate our flag and call for the overthrow of our government.)







Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 23-Jun-2005 at 16:13
Being a democracy should not give them the so-called free speech to call for the overthrow of our government and forcing Islamic law on us, in a time of war.
They should be arrested and charged with treason, deported if they are not citizens.

What is the point of a democracy if people aren't allowed to give there opinion. Surely, it's a dangerous opinion, but free speech is not only for people with run-off-the-mill opinions.


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Posted By: eaglecap
Date Posted: 23-Jun-2005 at 23:59
Originally posted by Mixcoatl

Being a democracy should not give them the so-called free speech to
call for the overthrow of our government and forcing Islamic law on us,
in a time of war.
They should be arrested and charged with treason, deported if they are not citizens.

What is the point of a democracy if people aren't allowed to give there
opinion. Surely, it's a dangerous opinion, but free speech is not only
for people with run-off-the-mill opinions.



Not in a time of war. If they cannot respect our symbols and if they hate our country so much then they should go back where they came from. "America love it or leave it!!" Like I said earlier burning or stomping on our flag is one thing but talking about the overthrow of a nation is another. The right of free speech comes with responsibility and words have meaning. If this is how you feel about your nation fine but I stand for my nation. I still believe if they have the free speech right to burn my flag then I have the free speech right to confront them and tell them what I think and don't think I wouldn't. Everyone that knows me also knows I am not very PC and I am not afraid to say what I think.


Posted By: strategos
Date Posted: 24-Jun-2005 at 02:34
Originally posted by hugoestr

Originally posted by strategos

Originally posted by Tobodai


America needs to be loved by its citizens, but it also needs to love the citizens that dont love it.



Why?



Because that is democracy. Just because I dislike something about another group doesn't mean that I can legally go after them.

Why love people that want to bring an end to democracy? Wouldn't people who want to bring an end to democracy make them an enemy to democracy,and we should love them for it?



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http://theforgotten.org/intro.html


Posted By: hugoestr
Date Posted: 24-Jun-2005 at 10:28
Originally posted by eaglecap

Originally posted by Mixcoatl

Being a democracy should not give them the so-called free speech to
call for the overthrow of our government and forcing Islamic law on us,
in a time of war.
They should be arrested and charged with treason, deported if they are not citizens.

What is the point of a democracy if people aren't allowed to give there
opinion. Surely, it's a dangerous opinion, but free speech is not only
for people with run-off-the-mill opinions.



Not in a time of war. If they cannot respect our symbols and if they hate our country so much then they should go back where they came from. "America love it or leave it!!" Like I said earlier burning or stomping on our flag is one thing but talking about the overthrow of a nation is another. The right of free speech comes with responsibility and words have meaning. If this is how you feel about your nation fine but I stand for my nation. I still believe if they have the free speech right to burn my flag then I have the free speech right to confront them and tell them what I think and don't think I wouldn't. Everyone that knows me also knows I am not very PC and I am not afraid to say what I think.


You have to make an argument that we are really in a war. Personally, I think that we are doing is more like a global police operation. Besides, the Bush administration doesn't behave as if we are at war, except when it comes to undermining our civil liberties and increase military spending.

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Posted By: hugoestr
Date Posted: 24-Jun-2005 at 10:31
Originally posted by strategos

Originally posted by hugoestr

Originally posted by strategos

Originally posted by Tobodai


America needs to be loved by its citizens, but it also needs to love the citizens that dont love it.



Why?


Because that is democracy. Just because I dislike something about another group doesn't mean that I can legally go after them.


Why love people that want to bring an end to democracy? Wouldn't people who want to bring an end to democracy make them an enemy to democracy,and we should love them for it?



I agree: tolerance for other opinions, no matter how horrible, is part of democracy.

To honestly stand by our country, we must protect the liberties that makes us who we are. I will repeat something I said before because it is important: The freedoms are always more important than the symbols it represents.

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Posted By: Murtaza
Date Posted: 24-Jun-2005 at 10:45

 forcing Islamic law on us,

 

eaglecap

You are becoming comic,  so tell me who will force islamic law on you?

Iraq? Iran?

Who?

this is absurd.

 

 



Posted By: SearchAndDestroy
Date Posted: 24-Jun-2005 at 11:35

Eaglecap I understand you love our country and have alot of pride on it, but your bordering on paranoia. There won't and never will be any Islamic Laws imposed on the US. And it definately wouldn't happen through flag burning.

Do you honestly believe that Americans would let one sect of religeon surpass any other in anyway thats beyond being of equal status? Look what happened to the ten commandments on that they had to be removed from The Chief Justice of the Alabama Supreme Court court house building. He was removed from office for refusing to remove them.

James Madison-Christian forefather

James Madison, when speaking of the method and manner of the election of the members of the Congress, noted that even "Religion itself may become a motive to persecution and oppression," telegraphing his own desire for no religious test for government service. He had been a prime mover in the efforts of some Virginia lawmakers to ensure that no preference be given to any religion in that state, and that a proposed tax to aid religious efforts be defeated. Madison and one of the Pinkney cousins moved, in the waning days of the Convention, that the Congress be permitted the power to establish a university, with the express stipulation that "no preferences or distinctions should be allowed on account of Religion." The motion was turned down on a six to four vote, but it was another illustration of his desire to extend no preference to any religious sect.

From the Declaration of Idependence- I should probably post this in that gay parade section seeing as some of you Americans think we shouldn't allow gays the right of marriage or union, whatever you decide to call it, and the right that gives them happiness but you call their so called "life style" disgusting and inhuman.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just Powers from the consent of the governed, -- That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.

Any American has the right to do that when the current gov't infringes on our rights, Life, Liberty and Happiness as said above. There is no worry of Islamic, Christian, or any other oppressive regime to take hold of our gov't, it will never happen.



Posted By: eaglecap
Date Posted: 24-Jun-2005 at 13:39
Originally posted by SearchAndDestroy

Eaglecap I understand you love our country and have alot of pride on it, but your bordering on paranoia. There won't and never will be any Islamic Laws imposed on the US. And it definately wouldn't happen through flag burning.


Do you honestly believe that Americans would let one sect of religeon surpass any other in anyway thats beyond being of equal status? Look what happened to the ten commandments on that they had to be removed from The Chief Justice of the Alabama Supreme Court court house building. He was removed from office for refusing to remove them.


James Madison-Christian forefather


James Madison, when speaking of the method and manner of the election of the members of the Congress, noted that even "Religion itself may become a motive to persecution and oppression," telegraphing his own desire for no religious test for government service. He had been a prime mover in the efforts of some Virginia lawmakers to ensure that no preference be given to any religion in that state, and that a proposed tax to aid religious efforts be defeated. Madison and one of the Pinkney cousins moved, in the waning days of the Convention, that the Congress be permitted the power to establish a university, with the express stipulation that "no preferences or distinctions should be allowed on account of Religion." The motion was turned down on a six to four vote, but it was another illustration of his desire to extend no preference to any religious sect.


From the Declaration of Idependence- I should probably post this in that gay parade section seeing as some of you Americans think we shouldn't allow gays the right of marriage or union, whatever you decide to call it, and the right that gives them happiness but you call their so called "life style" disgusting and inhuman.


We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just Powers from the consent of the governed, -- That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.


Any American has the right to do that when the current gov't infringes on our rights, Life, Liberty and Happiness as said above. There is no worry of Islamic, Christian, or any other oppressive regime to take hold of our gov't, it will never happen.



Please don't give me your revision history. You are right a small sect which does not represent even the majority of Muslims would not be a threat in our lifetime but I do not consider it free speech for any group to talk about the overthrow of the nation in a time of war. Sorry, but a lot of Americans believe this.

Also, you are twisting my words and the facts. I never said it was disgusting and inhumane but it is morally a bad choice but as adults their right to choose. They are free to do what they want as long as they pratice safe sex and don't force it on the majority, keep in private.
You are also twisting the bill of rights and the founding fathers never intended it to go so far. The thought of two men getting married was from removed from the culture and it is an assualt on the tradition of marriage. If they keep pushing this it will backfire on them. I don't want a culture war that could potentially get out of hand and turn violent, do you?

These are my views so keep yours because opposing views can sometimes create a balance but you are really twisting the Bill of Rights.

infringes on our rights, Life, Liberty and Happiness - Governments have always set moral standards

So, would denying someone who wants to marry a child, his horse, or have ten wives be an government infringment on their persuit of life, liberty and happiness? It would be like opening a Pandora's box.

I read Michael Savages latest book so go get it and let me know why it is wrong.


Posted By: SearchAndDestroy
Date Posted: 24-Jun-2005 at 14:17

Please don't give me your revision history.

I don't understand what you mean by that. I found this info at the usconstitution.net. The forefathers didn't want any religeon in the gov't at all, and they all agreed on it. So what was my revision?

Most were Protestant, two were Roman Catholic. They all had different views on how style and method of worship between them. So all of them agreed no religeon sect and sieze power in anyway. They didn't want the American gov't to show favroritism for any religeon. Theres one Christian church that says they allow everyone no matter your view on life. I see them allowing marriage one day, if a religeon accepts that type of marriage and its their view point to allow it because they belive in it, your going to say its wrong because your own religeon says so?

My post was about that we can't favor Islam and they would never get a chance to take over America or any other religeous sect. But while I was making these points they related to other topics we had.

Also, you are twisting my words and the facts.

Don't know any facts I have twisted, got my info straight out of history. The gov't should have no say on personal life, and that counts as marriage, it should be left to the churches to decide. But they should allow the marriage of same sex if they do goto a court house to be wedded. The gov't has no part in these matters and is going against what many came here for, to leave religeous prosecution or having religeous freedom.

I'll continue most of the arguement in another thread. The point is that America and Americans won't allow one religeon surpass the others. There is no need for  the paranoia that Islam will take hold of America and start a reime here, its impossible and even if it was, Americans won't sit back and let it.

The part about people on these forums saying its disgusting and inhumane isn't directed towards you as a few other forumers on these boards have said in other posts. Some not American though...




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