Is the Egyptian word NTR(god) from Nut/Neith + Ra?
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Topic: Is the Egyptian word NTR(god) from Nut/Neith + Ra?
Posted By: rakovsky
Subject: Is the Egyptian word NTR(god) from Nut/Neith + Ra?
Date Posted: 07-Aug-2016 at 14:55
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Scholars find the meanings and etymology of the Egyptian word for "God" a mystery. The word is NTR, pronounced Neter. Some scholars propose that it means "Nature", "element", or "principle". A review of The Temple in Man by R.A. Schwaller de Lubicz lays out this theory: Schwaller de Lubicz explains in Le Temple de l'Homme (Caracteres, 1957) that in the ancient temple civilization of Egypt, numbers, our most ancient form of symbol, did not simply designate quantities but instead were considered to be concrete definitions of energetic formative principles of nature. The Egyptians called these energetic principles Neters, a word which is conventionally rendered as "gods." To conform with the true meaning of the symbol in ancient Egypt, we ought to use the Egyptian term Medu-Neteru, the Greek translation of which, "heiroglyphs," distorts the Egyptian meaning. Medu-Neteru are the Neters, or the principles conveyed by a sign. Stephen S. Mahler writes in Land of Osiris about NTR and this theory that NTR means element or nature: First translated by early Egyptologists after Champollion as God or Goddess, this meaning ["god"] has since been challenged. R A Schwaller de Lubicz was one of the first to question this translation in the early 1950's, choosing rather to define Neter as principle" and/or "attribute", as a divine aspect of the whole, not in the sense we use the word Deity. The [ Latins] derived their word Nature from Neter, therefore equating the Divine with the natural as the Khemitians taught them. The ancient Khemitians knew every principle or attribute of Nature was also divine, of God - all interconnected and interrelated to the whole, the source. The book Religion and the Order of Nature by Seyyed Hossein Nasr (Professor of Islamic Studies at George Washington University) says: ...there are basic principles concerning the order of nature that continue through these transformations, such as the identification of cosmic elements with real divinities possessing a personal existence. Most important of these principles for the understanding of the order of nature is the Neter , which has received many interpretations, some even equating it with the Hebrew Wl. The Neter is a principle conveyed by a sign, the hieroglyph being itself called Medu-Neteru. It is the Idea of which a material object is the crystallization.A weakness in this theory is that these particular scholars are not major Egyptologists. Some propose that the Latin word for Nature, Natura, comes from Egyptian NTR. But others disagree and say that there is no direct connection, and that Natura only comes from Natalis, the latin word for birth. What do you think? Next I will lay out my theory that NTR comes from Nut/Neith + Ra. |
Replies:
Posted By: rakovsky
Date Posted: 07-Aug-2016 at 15:40
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Let me explain my theory here. First, consider that in other ancient civilizations, the word for god at that time bore a phonetic resemblance, because T is an unvoiced D. So the Sumerians, proto-Turkics, Chinese, and Indo-Europeans called God Dingir, Tengri, Tien, and Dyeus. These word not only meant god, but they also meant heavens/sky. And with the exception of Tien in Chinese, they also meant day, brightness, or shining. So we might consider whether the word in Egyptian, NTR, had a related meaning. In each of those other societies, we see that this word for God not only referred the word deity as such, but also referred to a particular supreme deity, with the exception perhaps of Tengri, which perhaps only referred to a supreme deity. Next, looking at the names of Egyptian gods who begin with N, we find that there are such gods: NuNeT, the primordial waters that are in the heavens; Nut, the heavens/sky; Neith, a warrior/weaver goddess who is also equated with the heavens. Each of these deities is equated with the celestial waters and the heavens. Next, we look for an R or for the meaning of brightness, day, and shining, and we come across Ra(Sun) and Horus (Falcon). They are gods closely equated or associated with each other, as Ra/sun on the horizon is called Horus. Horus is the god of light and Ra is the god of day. Consider also that Tien is a supreme ruler of the heavens. The Chinese and Egyptians imagined that the worlds in the heavens and on earth paralleled each other, with a supreme ruler on each. In Egyptian mythology, Neith and Hathor are the queens or are associated with the Egyptian queens. Hathor means "mansion of Horus" and she was also equated with Neith and Nut as the celestial waters and heavens. Neith, Hathor, and Nut were all depicted as a celestial cow in this concept. For their part, the male pharaohs were the sons of Ra and embodiments of Horus, respectively. Let's consider another aspect of these chief deities- their status as a Creator. Dingir referred to An who was the progenitor of the gods, while Dyeus was Dyeus Pater, the sky father of the gods. Indeed, being a creator of the gods would be a character of a supreme deity, which is what we are looking for. For example, one theory on the etymology of Dingir - is that it means Creator from the verb, Dinge, to create, as Sayce proposed in the 19th century. SEE: https://books.google.com/books?id=Rp4qAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA143&lpg=PA143&dq=%22dingir%22+sumer+OR+sumerian+etymology&source=bl&ots=Lo_Aphd3ca&sig=MESDlZsZ2pyF3dFP2V5QbI9WMAk&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjurvLcjavOAhVEgx4KHTm6AdwQ6AEIfjAQ#v=onepage&q=%22dingir%22%20sumer%20OR%20sumerian%20etymology&f=false Wikipedia notes Neith's status as a Creator/Creatrix:
Meanwhile, Ra was also seen as a creator of everything, as these essays note:
Next, let's consider whether the Egyptians might have combined Nut and Ra into a concept of deity. |
Posted By: rakovsky
Date Posted: 07-Aug-2016 at 16:51
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One of the obstacles to equating NT + Ra with NTR is that it combines deities, and not only that, but male and female ones. Is this a possibility? Consider that: 1. Hathor is equated with Nut and Neith as the celestial sky goddess. But "Hathor" simply means "House of Horus". The combining of the heavens with Horus is a key concept in Hathor, and therefore de facto in Nut. Consider also that a key Egyptian myth is also the combination of Nu and Ra - each day Nut, the heavens, swallows Ra and gives him rebirth each day. During that time, Ra travels inside Ra, making her de facto his house. 2. Egyptians had a practice of combining gods. So Amen + Ra = Amen Ra. Ra + Horus = Ra-Horakhty. 3. Egyptians could think in terms of androgynous gods that were both male and female. So Neith was sometimes written in hieroglyphics as a producing phallus, referring to her status as a creator. See: http://www.touregypt.net/featurestories/nit.htm#ixzz4FaInumGF - http://www.touregypt.net/featurestories/nit.htm#ixzz4FaInumGF 4. The Hindu Shatkona is a divine symbol of the combination of the male and female deities that creates life. One triangle is the male god Shiva or else the Cosmic Man Purusha and the other triangle is Shakti, the mother goddess. One theory is that the Ankh is similar - a symbol of life representing both female and male parts, with the O being a womb and the t being a phallus or other male symbol. 5. The Sumerians and Babylonians called the gods the "Anunaki". They were the offspring of the gods "An"/"Anu" and "Ki". Kerry Barger writes in The True Story of Noah,
The Encyclopedic Dictionary of Religion, Vol. 1 defines Anunnaki this way:
This last part reminds me of the importance of kingship for the quintessential deity, as the Dingir sign specifically referred to An. It also reminds us of how Ra was seen as the king of the gods in Egypt. In Egypt, the gods were the offspring of Nut and Ra and were called the Neteru. Just as the offspring of An and Ki were the Anunaki, could it be that the offspring of the combination of Nut and Ra are called Neteru for a similar phonetic reason? What do you think about my theory that NTR = Nut + Ra? |
Posted By: medenaywe
Date Posted: 08-Aug-2016 at 06:54
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What do you think about: Maternal=Sanctification-organisational=structural=constitutional-civilization dream=romance= fantasy-imagination-invention is sprung =issued=edited-grown-moved by ntr. Maternal=Sanctification-organisational =structural =constitutional-civilization dream=romance=fantasy springs=issues=edits-grows-moves ntr.
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Posted By: rakovsky
Date Posted: 08-Aug-2016 at 18:16
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Hello, Medenaywe. I think you are using humor, suggesting that I am relying on too weak a connection between words. The meaning of NTR in its origins is very interesting to me because Egyptian civilization and religion is one of the oldest, if not the oldest, we have remaining in detailed literature, like the pyramid texts. They were written on the walls of the pyramids over 4000 years ago. I think it's neat.  |
Posted By: rakovsky
Date Posted: 08-Aug-2016 at 18:18
| Looks like they let you vote more than once here on the same poll. Oh well. |
Posted By: red clay
Date Posted: 08-Aug-2016 at 18:42
No, you cannot vote more than once. However, you don't have to post in order to vote. So, 3 votes only 2 posters. ------------- "Arguing with someone who hates you or your ideas, is like playing chess with a pigeon. No matter what move you make, your opponent will walk all over the board and scramble the pieces". Unknown. |
Posted By: red clay
Date Posted: 08-Aug-2016 at 18:50
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Were you aware that the Hopi had protectors they called the Annunaki. In their language Annu means Ant and Naki means friend, Ant Friends. ------------- "Arguing with someone who hates you or your ideas, is like playing chess with a pigeon. No matter what move you make, your opponent will walk all over the board and scramble the pieces". Unknown. |
Posted By: medenaywe
Date Posted: 08-Aug-2016 at 23:44
| Egyptians spoke like that Rakovsky in 196 B.C.They spoke with language where voices&syllables were words! |
Posted By: rakovsky
Date Posted: 09-Aug-2016 at 00:44
Please check the poll results again, Red Clay. |
Posted By: rakovsky
Date Posted: 09-Aug-2016 at 00:55
Red Clay, That sounds neat, but would you be able to confirm that with a scholarly source? I looked up person and people in a Hopi dictionary, and all I found was that person is " |
Posted By: rakovsky
Date Posted: 09-Aug-2016 at 00:57
So what were they doing in the centuries leading up to 196 BC to make language?    |
Posted By: medenaywe
Date Posted: 09-Aug-2016 at 01:05
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Read Origins of Language better!Be persistent and more it comes it is better.How word=sentence sounds is the rule: http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=30949&PN=283 - http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=30949&PN=283 |
Posted By: red clay
Date Posted: 09-Aug-2016 at 09:34
I probably could, if I had time. However I thought that was a common historical fact. ------------- "Arguing with someone who hates you or your ideas, is like playing chess with a pigeon. No matter what move you make, your opponent will walk all over the board and scramble the pieces". Unknown. |
Posted By: red clay
Date Posted: 09-Aug-2016 at 12:00
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On the subject of the poll, it's never happened before. I'm looking for a glitch now.
Our software is old and creaky, glitches are not unexpected. ------------- "Arguing with someone who hates you or your ideas, is like playing chess with a pigeon. No matter what move you make, your opponent will walk all over the board and scramble the pieces". Unknown. |
Posted By: red clay
Date Posted: 09-Aug-2016 at 12:05
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The Hopi legends state that the "ant people" came and took them underground to survive some global disaster.
If you need further info, google it. This isn't new or unknown folklore. ------------- "Arguing with someone who hates you or your ideas, is like playing chess with a pigeon. No matter what move you make, your opponent will walk all over the board and scramble the pieces". Unknown. |
Posted By: rakovsky
Date Posted: 09-Aug-2016 at 14:34
Red Clay, I googled it and found that Hopi legends talk about the Ant People helping them. What I didn't find though is a claim in an academic scholarly authoritative source (eg. peer reviewed journal, dictionary, or for that matter Hopi website) saying that Ant People = "Annunaki" in Hopi. I did find New Age-type website claiming that, and even one website claiming that the Hopi word was Anasazi (a word that actually means enemies' ancestors). |
Posted By: Centrix Vigilis
Date Posted: 09-Aug-2016 at 16:21
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http://www.hopi-nsn.gov/
Under 'Contact'.. direct your research thru the Office of the Chairman and or Director of Education for additional information..sources..links that verify this well known traditional cultural identification, ------------- "Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence" S. T. Friedman Pilger's law: 'If it's been officially denied, then it's probably true' |
Posted By: Arthur-Robin
Date Posted: 09-Aug-2016 at 16:45
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I don't think neter can be Nut + Ra. Not saying more on here but you [Rakovsly] can discuss it in p.m. or anywhere else if wish. ------------- NZ's mandatory fluoridation is not fair because it only forces it on the disadvantaged/some and not on the advantaged/everyone. |
Posted By: rakovsky
Date Posted: 09-Aug-2016 at 19:59
Arthur, Don't feel bad about posting here or discussing with opposite POVs. I can see several different theories. Some I have come across among Egyptologists: NTR = birthing, giving life. (Like Natalis in Latin, or Nurture in English) NTR = Nature, element, principle (Like Natura in Latin) NTR = purifying (Like Natron in Latin and in Egyptian) NTR = something high up (like the "God most High" in the Old Testament) That NTR is related to the goddesses Nut("sky/heavens" that has the heavenly waters)/Nunet(heavenly "waters")/Neith(who is the unseen heavens and the heavenly waters) is my own theory. For example, the gods are often equated with the stars in Egyptian myths. And the stars themselves are celestial and heavenly. When the blessed dead die, they go to heaven and become "neteru" (gods, plural of NTRU). So this means they are heavenly too in a sense. Copts dropped the R in NTR and called it Noute, which reminds me of Nut (heavens, pronounced Newt). It's as if the R was not essential and they associated NTR most with Nut, the heavens. The best avenue for more exploration of the subject I see would be to see what words in the related Chadic/Cush-ite, and Berber languages have NTR, mean "God", or mean any of those five things and also have NT in them or mean "god". |
Posted By: rakovsky
Date Posted: 09-Aug-2016 at 20:05
A claim I've read is that the word Ant is Anu and the word Friends is Naki, so Ant Friends is Anu Naki. But I didn't read it in scholarship. |
Posted By: Centrix Vigilis
Date Posted: 09-Aug-2016 at 21:52
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I provided you an excellent link. You want more than that do as it suggest.
I'm not in the habit of doing this for anybody gratis. You want that then expect to be billed for personal service rendered. That link might well lead you to academic sources of verification of the type you require. You decide. ------------- "Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence" S. T. Friedman Pilger's law: 'If it's been officially denied, then it's probably true' |
Posted By: rakovsky
Date Posted: 09-Aug-2016 at 23:19
If someone is making the claim that either Ant Friends or Ant People in Hopi language is Anu Naki, then the burden is on him/her, the claimant, to provide sufficiently authoritative evidence to prove his/her claim to a reasonable degree. |
Posted By: rakovsky
Date Posted: 09-Aug-2016 at 23:29
Here is what I found:
http://lunaticoutpost.com/archive/index.php?thread-520671-3.html |
Posted By: Centrix Vigilis
Date Posted: 10-Aug-2016 at 02:24
Yup I'm aware of all that. Been teaching and have taught at various academic levels that the "Burden of Proof" rule of reason is a staple. However at this point it's been made clear by the original initiator of the claim. He didn't have the time presently to find an academic source that might still not meet with your concurrence or approval. Consequently the advice rendered previous still stands. ------------- "Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence" S. T. Friedman Pilger's law: 'If it's been officially denied, then it's probably true' |
Posted By: rakovsky
Date Posted: 10-Aug-2016 at 19:21
Does merely asserting "In their language Annu means Ant and Naki means friend, Ant Friends. " meet a reasonable burden of proving that Anu Naki means Ant People? If so, how? |
Posted By: Centrix Vigilis
Date Posted: 10-Aug-2016 at 22:25
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Your asking the wrong person the question you pose. Ask the originator of the claim.
Or you might query: Diane Joyce Humetewa. She is a United States District Judge of the United States District Court for the District of Arizona. Otoh, 'oral tradition' and cultural development history as maintained by the former should not be immediately discounted. Tho the 'method' teaches us that we should seek contextual primary evidentiary sources that can be confirmed as consistent with others wherever possible... in many cases they must include oral. As there may be insufficient direct primary to verify. Which is to say, and it's my final word on this matter, countless Hopi believe what has been asserted. Stay inquisitive. ------------- "Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence" S. T. Friedman Pilger's law: 'If it's been officially denied, then it's probably true' |
Posted By: rakovsky
Date Posted: 11-Aug-2016 at 01:16
| If you are interested in the theory of ancient Advanced technology, in the Americas, it seems to me that Norte Chico and Puma Punku are key places to look. It is fascinating to me that Peruvian society in the Norte Chico region began to build its neolithic structures, maybe including pyramids and temples, in 4000-2500 BC, the same era when Egyptian society was emerging as a literate neolithic civilization. |
Posted By: Centrix Vigilis
Date Posted: 11-Aug-2016 at 19:17
And I failed to remember to add... that if you discount oral traditions and the beliefs of thousands as adequate academic sources or proofs....that...remains your prerogative. But just as easily as you might reject that or them...they will do the same to you. ------------- "Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence" S. T. Friedman Pilger's law: 'If it's been officially denied, then it's probably true' |
Posted By: Centrix Vigilis
Date Posted: 11-Aug-2016 at 19:24
Yup 40 plus years ago I was interested....long before neo revisionists or unqualified and trained novices and theorists were promulgating various theorems. Or banding about theories of alien influences. None of which is to say I reject out of hand or.... the possibility of diffusion and or assimilation thru exploration and communication, exchanges of culture etc. Even given the technical capabilities and abilities to promote such exchange as recognized and accepted by mainstream academia today...of the contextual eras in question. I'm no longer interested in it. But I am in whether or not I catch some nice brown trout tomorrow. So carry on admirably but I am finished here. ------------- "Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence" S. T. Friedman Pilger's law: 'If it's been officially denied, then it's probably true' |