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ancient turk and scythian

Printed From: History Community ~ All Empires
Category: Regional History or Period History
Forum Name: Ethnic History of Central Asia
Forum Discription: Discussions about the ethnic origins of Central Asian peoples. All topics related to ethnicity should go here.
URL: http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=36138
Printed Date: 25-Apr-2024 at 15:47
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Topic: ancient turk and scythian
Posted By: gader1371
Subject: ancient turk and scythian
Date Posted: 11-Mar-2016 at 09:03

in the name of god
these two had more similarity in culture and social also religious for example use turkmen horse or existence turkish names for scythian king  and  these two were plain or steppe living .
and these references are for sixth century AD
among all this traveler which in byzantium called torque one hundred and six people with roots skating gathered and when valentinus separated of the capital all of them  took with him.
(Excerpta-Menandros protector-Frg:19-1)
When the "Turks" who "Scythian" called Ambassador to Jvstynvs sent in connection with peace, the emperor decided to send an ambassador to the Turks.
(Excerpta-Menandros protector)






Replies:
Posted By: TheAlaniDragonRising
Date Posted: 11-Mar-2016 at 10:42
There has been much said about similarities between these peoples and also Sarmatians, and the Alani. Many look at language and get excited thinking that the Scythians Sarmatians, and Alani must have been Turkic. The truth of the matter is that as Turkic peoples moved west they assimilated words and phrases of people they come into contact with. However, I'm pretty sure the use of the term Scythian by the sixth century AD was used to cover peoples that were other than Scythian.

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What a handsome figure of a dragon. No wonder I fall madly in love with the Alani Dragon now, the avatar, it's a gorgeous dragon picture.


Posted By: gader1371
Date Posted: 11-Mar-2016 at 13:59
thank you sir for participating this debate but

the persians called the scythians saka, the chinese called the scythians sai.

and ofcourse the greeks called them scythians.

and many other people also claim that they are descendants of the saka:

tribes in india that claim to be descendants of the saka's
and Babylonian and Assyrian called Ashkvz that is a turkish name mean three tribe of people were similar together


Posted By: TheAlaniDragonRising
Date Posted: 11-Mar-2016 at 14:36
Originally posted by gader1371

thank you sir for participating this debate but

the persians called the scythians saka, the chinese called the scythians sai.

and ofcourse the greeks called them scythians.

and many other people also claim that they are descendants of the saka:

tribes in india that claim to be descendants of the saka's
and Babylonian and Assyrian called Ashkvz that is a turkish name mean three tribe of people were similar together
All of which is known to me and many others who have studied the subject. However, this in no way detracts from what I said in my previous post. Assimilation of words and terms. Very common indeed. The Scythians had all but vanished by about the second century AD. 


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What a handsome figure of a dragon. No wonder I fall madly in love with the Alani Dragon now, the avatar, it's a gorgeous dragon picture.


Posted By: gader1371
Date Posted: 11-Mar-2016 at 15:03
iranian historian  Rashid al-Din said
among the alans nations exist a legendary story powerful man

(who was expected to come to power in Mongolia in the future)will be the individual who has red hair and blue eyes is greenish.
probably
Genghis Khan have relatives with alan people.


Posted By: gader1371
Date Posted: 12-Mar-2016 at 07:26
khazars the book written by arthur koestler jewish this book khazar turk people describe powerful men with red hair and blue eye in other wise most turk people  in historical reference red hair with blue and green eye  describe and now  scythian  ukraine regions picture



do you dont see any similarity?


Posted By: TheAlaniDragonRising
Date Posted: 12-Mar-2016 at 18:46
Originally posted by gader1371

khazars the book written by arthur koestler jewish this book khazar turk people describe powerful men with red hair and blue eye in other wise most turk people  in historical reference red hair with blue and green eye  describe and now  scythian  ukraine regions picture



do you dont see any similarity?

Which similarities are you after, gader1371, and to whom?


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What a handsome figure of a dragon. No wonder I fall madly in love with the Alani Dragon now, the avatar, it's a gorgeous dragon picture.


Posted By: ChildrenOfMala'Kak
Date Posted: 12-Mar-2016 at 19:18
This comment will probably have me slaughtered. But here we go. I belive all empires and inventions were made by three races: Asians,Aryans and Africans. These races have their own signature. They don't look like anyone else. They are unique. They are pure breed. If you are not from any of these races. then you really should not claim any real history.


Posted By: Centrix Vigilis
Date Posted: 12-Mar-2016 at 19:35
Nope not slaughtered...but merely a gentle suggestion...and I infer no evil intent on your part...ntl be wary of provocation...thru subjective opinions.

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"Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence"

S. T. Friedman


Pilger's law: 'If it's been officially denied, then it's probably true'



Posted By: TheAlaniDragonRising
Date Posted: 12-Mar-2016 at 20:52
Originally posted by ChildrenOfMala'Kak

This comment will probably have me slaughtered. But here we go. I belive all empires and inventions were made by three races: Asians,Aryans and Africans. These races have their own signature. They don't look like anyone else. They are unique. They are pure breed. If you are not from any of these races. then you really should not claim any real history.

Science is already one step ahead of you buddy and has said that humanity is so closely related it can only be classed as being one race the human race.


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What a handsome figure of a dragon. No wonder I fall madly in love with the Alani Dragon now, the avatar, it's a gorgeous dragon picture.


Posted By: J.A.W.
Date Posted: 13-Mar-2016 at 00:30
Divided into male & female.. ( shhh.. don't mention the differences in empire/invention making there..)

& not to ignore those recently shown to have a significant % of Neanderthal genetic inheritance..

Or the surviving ancient DNA-bearing 'pursang' hunter-gatherer tribes of southern Africa, the 'click' speakers..


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Be Modest In Thyself..


Posted By: Aeoli
Date Posted: 13-Mar-2016 at 01:31
Originally posted by ChildrenOfMala'Kak

This comment will probably have me slaughtered. But here we go. I belive all empires and inventions were made by three races: Asians,Aryans and Africans. These races have their own signature. They don't look like anyone else. They are unique. They are pure breed. If you are not from any of these races. then you really should not claim any real history.

It sounds three race theory; Yellow, White and Black. Can you open it? 


Posted By: gader1371
Date Posted: 13-Mar-2016 at 02:37
TheAlaniDragonRising
my dear friend explain clearly your comment we iranian turk people have not any similarities with ancient turk people.
ancient turk people had appearance nordic but now  after many years and mix with persian and arabian race turk iranian people have appearance middle east people


Posted By: Aeoli
Date Posted: 13-Mar-2016 at 03:28
Originally posted by gader1371

TheAlaniDragonRising
we iranian turk people have not any similarities with ancient turk people.

Not any similarities? How can it be possible? They have been living as neighbour since the begining of time

What did you mean with ancient Turk? Just Siberian Turks are pure. All other are mixed so how you can deicde that one civilisation is ancient Turk? Did you look some haplogroup or autosamal tests?


Posted By: gader1371
Date Posted: 13-Mar-2016 at 04:13
not similarities  in term of appearance because if a caucasian person  of north europe marry with a dark skin person children of marriage are  with dark skin why?because dark color skin is dominant gene and white color skin is recessive gene.


Posted By: gader1371
Date Posted: 13-Mar-2016 at 04:54
ancient turks
ancestor  today turks
.ancient turk a set of nomadic tribes and warrior from siberia to  eastern europe and northern asia to north africa.
common marker R1A-R1B-J2-N-G between is majority.


Posted By: Aeoli
Date Posted: 13-Mar-2016 at 05:21
Originally posted by gader1371

not similarities  in term of appearance because if a caucasian person  of north europe marry with a dark skin person children of marriage are  with dark skin why?because dark color skin is dominant gene and white color skin is recessive gene.

According to your theory, there shouldn't be Blood type 0. Because A and B are dominant. Dominant and recessive genes still be part of that human even you can't see it from his/her appearance and both genetic metarial can pass next generation. Is there any rule that people tranfer just dominant genes ? 

Originally posted by gader1371

ancient turks 
ancestor  today turks
.ancient turk a set of nomadic tribes and warrior from siberia to  eastern europe and northern asia to north africa.
common marker R1A-R1B-J2-N-G between is majority.

Without N all others are can be easily find in todays Iran. 

By the way are you Azeri?


Posted By: TheAlaniDragonRising
Date Posted: 13-Mar-2016 at 08:31
Originally posted by gader1371

TheAlaniDragonRising
my dear friend explain clearly your comment we iranian turk people have not any similarities with ancient turk people.
ancient turk people had appearance nordic but now  after many years and mix with persian and arabian race turk iranian people have appearance middle east people
Simply put, gader1371, those observable similarities that might be expected to accompany pictorial evidence such as yours when put forward as such, and what they might be comparable to. Do you even have accounts of what those Turkic people looked at the time when they were under the yoke of the Scythians? Am always interested in broadening my knowledge, and maybe looking at connections to my Alans.


-------------
What a handsome figure of a dragon. No wonder I fall madly in love with the Alani Dragon now, the avatar, it's a gorgeous dragon picture.


Posted By: gader1371
Date Posted: 13-Mar-2016 at 09:00
Originally posted by Aeoli

Originally posted by gader1371

not similarities  in term of appearance because if a caucasian person  of north europe marry with a dark skin person children of marriage are  with dark skin why?because dark color skin is dominant gene and white color skin is recessive gene.

According to your theory, there shouldn't be Blood type 0. Because A and B are dominant. Dominant and recessive genes still be part of that human even you can't see it from his/her appearance and both genetic metarial can pass next generation. Is there any rule that people tranfer just dominant genes ? 
these issue relative to genetice science but we can see this changes between kazakhstan and uzbekistan turk people in effect mix with yellow skinned people majority  are similarities  east asia people
Originally posted by gader1371

ancient turks 
ancestor  today turks
.ancient turk a set of nomadic tribes and warrior from siberia to  eastern europe and northern asia to north africa.
common marker R1A-R1B-J2-N-G between is majority.

Without N all others are can be easily find in todays Iran. 

By the way are you Azeri?
I AM NOT AZERY I AM IRANIAN TURK
diagram of chromosomes Y between turk people
ریشه مردم ترکریشه مردم ترکریشه مردم ترکریشه مردم ترکریشه مردم ترکریشه مردم ترکریشه مردم ترکریشه مردم ترکریشه مردم ترک



Posted By: gader1371
Date Posted: 13-Mar-2016 at 09:19
I want know your opinion about scythian?
TheAlaniDragonRising  excusme  where are you from?


Posted By: Aeoli
Date Posted: 13-Mar-2016 at 14:49
Originally posted by gader1371

 
I AM NOT AZERY I AM IRANIAN TURK

I wish people of Turkey use another term instead of Turk. Example; Russians, Serbs, Polish. But their common name is SLAV, so there is no chance to make mistake.

But when you say I am Iranian Turk, I can't be sure anything. There are 2 options;

*You can be Azeri, Turkmen or Qashqai
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ethnic_groups_known_as_Iranian_Turks - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ethnic_groups_known_as_%22Iranian_Turks%22  

*You can be Ottoman Turk who immigrate Iran.



Posted By: gader1371
Date Posted: 14-Mar-2016 at 09:18
no we are turkic people azeri  is  a false name by pahlavi government for political reasone before that  to azerbijan  people say turk people.
turk is a mass noun name for all over turkic people in the world


Posted By: gader1371
Date Posted: 14-Mar-2016 at 09:35
arax river is definitely  the aras river  in iran azerbijan and iranian turk is the same scythian  by massaget skates had been forced to migrate the southern aras river. It happened about 653 years before Christ.
Massage Scythians are people of Azerbaijan.
South Azerbaijani people are migrating Scythians



Posted By: Centrix Vigilis
Date Posted: 14-Mar-2016 at 10:09
Originally posted by gader1371

no we are turkic people azeri  is  a false name by pahlavi government for political reasone before that  to azerbijan  people say turk people.turk is a mass noun name for all over turkic people in the world


An interesting concept. Do for example you use the term to identify a national state...a ethnic nationality...a genetic identifier or all of the above...when you make this statement: ''turk is a mass noun name for all over turkic people in the world''.

If the first; than Jews in Turkey are Turks...correct? With a theological adherence to Judaism. Do non Jewish Turks view them as Turks or other?

Curious is all.

Because Turks who live in America for example, that have immigrated, consider themselves in the main, as Americans...not Turks. Especially if they have received citizenship..or resident status. there are of course exceptions. Hence they would use the term as a national identification.

They do however, and rightfully so, still revere their heritage.

Thanks.



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"Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence"

S. T. Friedman


Pilger's law: 'If it's been officially denied, then it's probably true'



Posted By: gader1371
Date Posted: 14-Mar-2016 at 11:02
this is your opinion and I respect it.


Posted By: TheAlaniDragonRising
Date Posted: 14-Mar-2016 at 15:58
Originally posted by gader1371

arax river is definitely  the aras river  in iran azerbijan and iranian turk is the same scythian  by massaget skates had been forced to migrate the southern aras river. It happened about 653 years before Christ.
Massage Scythians are people of Azerbaijan.
South Azerbaijani people are migrating Scythians

Azerbaijan people are a really mixed amalgam of many many peoples, gader1371, but Scythian? I'm not seeing it really. There may be traces in the population here or there, but not so much to identify the people as a whole. That is unless you've definitive proof stating a positive connection, and I look forward to you coming forth with what you have. 


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What a handsome figure of a dragon. No wonder I fall madly in love with the Alani Dragon now, the avatar, it's a gorgeous dragon picture.


Posted By: Centrix Vigilis
Date Posted: 14-Mar-2016 at 16:59
Originally posted by gader1371

this is your opinion and I respect it.



Thanks....but you didn't answer any of my questions. So lets expand; in Iran are those of the Jewish faith Iranians or 'Jews' first?

Turks...Iranians..Scythians...Medes..Persians..or an amglamation through cultural and genetic diffusion to some degree. Of all peoples in the region.

Iow. What identifier are you applying? Nationalism...ethnic cultural heritage... theologic...genetic proclivity or all of the above.

Thanks.

-------------
"Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence"

S. T. Friedman


Pilger's law: 'If it's been officially denied, then it's probably true'



Posted By: gader1371
Date Posted: 15-Mar-2016 at 06:27
TheAlaniDragonRising
ok I accept your opinion I think scythian are ancestor turkic people and now we azerbijan turk people have not any similarities in term of appearance with ancient scythian .
if you ask me whom similar to scythians  my answer is  to you  people north europe to example people england-ireland-scotland



Posted By: gader1371
Date Posted: 15-Mar-2016 at 06:59
Originally posted by Centrix Vigilis

Originally posted by gader1371

this is your opinion and I respect it.



Thanks....but you didn't answer any of my questions. So lets expand; in Iran are those of the Jewish faith Iranians or 'Jews' first?

Turks...Iranians..Scythians...Medes..Persians..or an amglamation through cultural and genetic diffusion to some degree. Of all peoples in the region.

Iow. What identifier are you applying? Nationalism...ethnic cultural heritage... theologic...genetic proclivity or all of the above.

Thanks.
I think thay are immigrants thousand years ago  come to iran and now thay are iranian people with jewish religion.
my intent of hold this post is prevention  falsification history


Posted By: Centrix Vigilis
Date Posted: 15-Mar-2016 at 17:48
Good luck.

As a historian I will give you this...If you can remain as objective as possible..if you can respectfully at least examine counter theorem and evidence...then You have gone a long way towards doing this: ''my intent of hold this post is prevention falsification history"'


Because in the end what you believe to be a false or incorrect interpretation of history...may actually not be at all....but a theorem that, evidence objectively examined, might yet be discovered or is already accepted by those with the expertise to validate it.

thanks.

-------------
"Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence"

S. T. Friedman


Pilger's law: 'If it's been officially denied, then it's probably true'



Posted By: TheAlaniDragonRising
Date Posted: 15-Mar-2016 at 19:52
Originally posted by gader1371

TheAlaniDragonRising
ok I accept your opinion I think scythian are ancestor turkic people and now we azerbijan turk people have not any similarities in term of appearance with ancient scythian .
if you ask me whom similar to scythians  my answer is  to you  people north europe to example people england-ireland-scotland









Have something here I thought you should take a look at.

Where Have all the Saka Gone?

Saka & Turkic Peoples

Today, the traditional Saka lands around the southern banks of the Aral Sea and along the banks of the Syr Darya River (northern Uzbekistan and southern Kazakhstan), are inhabited by a people who speak a Turkic/Altaic language and who are sometimes called the Turkoman. These Turkic speaking peoples now occupy an area that stretches from Turkey to Azarbaijan (Azerbaijan), Turkmenistan, Uzbekistan, Kazakhstan and Kyrgyzstan - forming a band in the shape of a dome over the traditional Iranian-Aryan nations. However, the appearance of the Turkic peoples and the establishment of the Turkic language in these areas is a relatively modern phenomenon. 

Before the arrival of the Turkic people with Mongolian-like features, the native Saka were a buffer people and their land a buffer region between the Aryan heartland and the northern peoples - peoples from the north as well as from the region of today's Mongolia and Siberia in the northeast. 

After 200 BCE and particularly after the turn of the millennium, there is evidence that large groups of people from the north had started to move into the lower Oxus ( http://www.heritageinstitute.com/zoroastrianism/khvarizem/index.htm - Khvarizem ) region and as well the eastern banks of the Syr Darya River. By 1000 CE, peoples from the Altai region of Siberia (a region also shared with Mongolia, China, and Kazakhstan) had established themselves in the old Saka lands east of the Syr Darya or Jaxartes, and by the time it was written (8th and 9th centuries CE), the Bundahishn, a Middle Persian Zoroastrian text began to call the region Turkistan. At this point in history, the so-called Altai-Turkic groups had settled in the lands between the Syr and Amu Darya rivers.


Theory regarding the spread of Turkic language and peoples
Theory regarding the spread of Turkic/Altaic language and peoples

The migration of the Altai peoples into Central Asia was facilitated by their Mongol cousins. The two groups combined forces that invaded Central Asia. In their armies, the Mongols were the generals while the more numerous Altai-Turks were the soldiers. The Altai-Turks made up the bulk of the invading forces. After the Mongol invasions led by Genghis Khan (c. 1162-1227 BCE), Altai-Turkic peoples quickly poured in to the conquered lands displacing the aboriginal Saka and Turanian inhabitants. When the Mongols left Central Asia and returned to Mongolia, leaders emerged from among the Turks, leaders who became Turkoman/Turcoman kings of the region. 

The invaders from the north almost entirely displaced the aboriginal Saka and Turanian-Sogdian Aryan population. That displacement is very evident around the Amu Darya or Oxus River. There the old Zoroastrian kingdom was overrun and a community that supported  http://www.heritageinstitute.com/zoroastrianism/khvarizem/page2.htm#dakhma - a large dakhma, a Zoroastrian burial tower, at Chilpik  was abandoned. Before they almost entirely displaced the aboriginal residents, the Altai-Turk adopted some of the regions cultural traits such as the celebration of Nowruz or the New Year on the spring equinox.


Turks & Turan

Turan, a land mentioned in Iranian legend, occupied lands otherwise known as Sugd, Sogdiana - southern Uzbekistan and northern Tajikistan today. Sughdha was the second nation mentioned in the Vendidad, a book of the Zoroastrian scriptures, the Avesta. We also find Sugd mentioned in the  http://www.heritageinstitute.com/zoroastrianism/saka/saka4.htm#achaemenian - Achaemenian inscriptions . In Iranian legend, this land was part of the Iranian-Aryan empire - a part ruled by Tur, one of the three sons of  http://www.heritageinstitute.com/zoroastrianism/legendary/index.htm - legendary Aryan emperor, King Feridoon . In these legends, we find the name Turanian, and not Sogdian, used for the people who lived in that land. The name Sugd came to be used during the Achaemenian Persian era (700 -330 BCE). 

We also find a people called the Tuirya in the Avesta - people who were among the first to accept Zarathushtra's teachings (cf.  http://www.heritageinstitute.com/zoroastrianism/aryans/airyanavaeja.htm#favardin - Lands of Zarathushtra's Ministry .) Many believe that the name Tuirya evolved to Turan. 

Given that the name Turkic is similar to the name Turi or Turanian, there is a strong temptation to identify the ancient Turanians, and even the Saka, with today's Turkic/Turkoman peoples. 

'Turkic' is a relatively modern word and we find it used in Ferdowsi's Shahnameh. Ferdowsi who did not seem to have known about the invasions of the Altai from the north, calls the new occupants of the land Turki or Turkoman, blurring the distinction between the legendary Turanians and the modern Turkic peoples, who have been known historically as the Hun and as Tartars - a people with little or no cultural affiliation with the Saka or Turanians. Turk or Turki could very well be a name given to the new occupants of Turan by the Persians. The Persians did the same with India (Hind) and Hindu. Hind and Hindu are alien words to the Indians. They call they nation Bharat. The name Hind is a Persian word for the people who lived along the Indus. We are as yet unaware of the Turkic peoples calling themselves by that name in antiquity. 

While the Saka and Turanians were an integral part of the Iranian-Aryan family, the Turkic peoples of Central Asia are ethnically from the area north of the Aral Sea, the Altai, as well as Mongolia and Siberia. The Turkic people may share linguistic roots but their physical features differ. There is also a distinct difference in the features of the Azerbaijani and Turkish Turkic peoples and those from Central Asia. Sharing a language through, say, conquest (the Kazakhs now speak Russian after their conquest by the Russians) does not always mean a sharing of physical characteristics, aboriginal origins or aboriginal culture. 

The aboriginal Saka and Sogdian-Turanian Aryans have been for the main part been displaced by the Altai (Turkic or Turkoman) peoples in today's Turkmenistan, Uzbekistan, Kazakhstan and Kyrgyzstan. 

Perhaps one of the reasons why the Altai-Turkic peoples are sometimes associated with the Saka is because they both had the reputation of being predatory.

http://www.heritageinstitute.com/zoroastrianism/saka/saka4.htm - http://www.heritageinstitute.com/zoroastrianism/saka/saka4.htm



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What a handsome figure of a dragon. No wonder I fall madly in love with the Alani Dragon now, the avatar, it's a gorgeous dragon picture.


Posted By: ChildrenOfMala'Kak
Date Posted: 05-Apr-2016 at 12:41
We know that Scythians and Medians had similar apperance. They had light skinn and bright eyes. And they lived amongst each other which is in the mountains. I belive they might have been the ancestors of pasthun people. Who also lives in the mountains today along with the kurds. But I agree with Gader on this one. Today they are more genitically or at least look very similar in appearance to British people .


Posted By: gader1371
Date Posted: 07-Apr-2016 at 10:50
exactlly
R1B is  haplogroup too much in west europa for example people of britain or spain and now haplogroup turkic people
ریشه مردم ترکریشه مردم ترکریشه مردم ترکریشه مردم ترکریشه مردم ترک


Posted By: Aeoli
Date Posted: 08-Apr-2016 at 01:02
Originally posted by gader1371

exactlly
R1B is  haplogroup too much in west europa for example people of britain or spain and now haplogroup turkic people
ریشه مردم ترکریشه مردم ترکریشه مردم ترکریشه مردم ترکریشه مردم ترک

Very good example to show that being Turk is not about genetic



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