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When does history end?

Printed From: History Community ~ All Empires
Category: General History
Forum Name: General World History
Forum Discription: All aspects of world history, especially topics that span across many regions or periods
URL: http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=3607
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Topic: When does history end?
Posted By: gcle2003
Subject: When does history end?
Date Posted: 25-May-2005 at 10:25

When I graduated in 1956, history - even 'modern history' - ended in 1914, when, as the British Foreign Secretary put it, the lights were going out all over the world.

That was about a 40-year gap. Which would mean that nowadays the Kennedy assassination, say, would be 'history', but the Vietnam war would not be.

However, 1914 wasn't just 40 years before. It also marked a cataclysmic change (at least the beginning of one) in the world.

Is there a comparable date/event that now should be taken as marking the 'end of history'?

 




Replies:
Posted By: poirot
Date Posted: 25-May-2005 at 10:54

In real history books:

World history ends at 1990s.

American history ends at Clinton Administration.

 



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AAAAAAAAAA
"The crisis of yesterday is the joke of tomorrow.�   ~ HG Wells
           


Posted By: Frederick Roger
Date Posted: 25-May-2005 at 13:41

History does not end until the last Man on earth takes his last breath.

If you're asking for periodization, that varies according to different historiographic perspectives. In Portugal we use French timeline. According to that we're still livin in the Contemporary Ages, which started with the French Revolution in 1789.



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Posted By: gcle2003
Date Posted: 25-May-2005 at 15:54
Originally posted by poirot

In real history books:

World history ends at 1990s.

American history ends at Clinton Administration.

Does that mean you now teach, say, the Kosovo campaigns in history lessons? How often do you bring out new history textbooks and/or revise the history syllabus?

 



Posted By: gcle2003
Date Posted: 25-May-2005 at 15:59
Originally posted by Frederick Roger

History does not end until the last Man on earth takes his last breath.

It doesn't even then, does it? If the dinosaurs are part of history, won't whatever comes after man be part of history too?

Anyway I meant 'history' with quotes around it - i.e. what is taught as history rather than as current affairs.

If you're asking for periodization, that varies according to different historiographic perspectives. In Portugal we use French timeline. According to that we're still livin in the Contemporary Ages, which started with the French Revolution in 1789.

Again, does that mean you teach, say, the first Bush administration in history classes?

(It may well do - I would just find that odd.)

 



Posted By: Frederick Roger
Date Posted: 25-May-2005 at 17:41

No, we don't teach that yet, but it's already a study matter.

I didn't realize you were asking about History school programs, I thought it was about the focus of History making. 

As for that "whatever comes after man be part of history too?", just between you and me, and don't really believe there will be much left when Man leaves this place...



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Posted By: giani_82
Date Posted: 25-May-2005 at 21:24

History ends when you die, I doubt you'll have any concerns for it after that. Otherwise, as long as there is someone to remember, history won't end.



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"Our greatest glory is not in never falling, but in rising everytime we fall."
Confucius


Posted By: gcle2003
Date Posted: 25-May-2005 at 21:26
Originally posted by Frederick Roger

I didn't realize you were asking about History school programs, I thought it was about the focus of History making. 

It seems to me there is 'history' which deals with events far enough in the past that they can be viewed with reasonable objectivity, and some sense that 'all the facts are in' - i.e. that we pretty well know what actually happened.  And there are 'current affairs' or 'contemporary studies' or whatever you call them which deal with things that are still open issues - the fat lady hasn't sung yet. 

I guess you could loosely say if you weren't involved in it and you don't remember it., then its history.

In US history the Civil War is definitely history (there may be disputes about it, and some flag-waving, but it and its aftermath are definitely over (and probably have been since the compromise of 1876).

Is Vietnam however just history? In the last electoral campaign it didn't seem to be.

I might suggest from an American point of view that 1963 would be a symbolic year, with the assassination of Kennedy, a kind of informal concordat with the Soviets, and the beginning of the downslope in Vietnam.  Or maybe it should be the abandonment of Saigon a little over 30 years ago.

For Britain it might be 1947 and Indian independence: would that work for India too - is the Pandit Nehru period now history, or still contemporary?. Or possibly more cogent Britain (for France too) might be 1956 because of the Suez debacle. 

I don't know. I wondered what ideas people might have.

 

 

 

 

Granted there will never be a clear-cut line between the two (at least I doubt it) but there is a kind of fuzzy one

 



Posted By: Frederick Roger
Date Posted: 26-May-2005 at 05:17

Well, the History of Portugal is already teached in schools right up to the year 1999, the end of the Empire (if you can call it that).

Of course I feel that the proximity of the study subject really affects objectivity, which is already impossible to keep, even when analizing events that took place ages ago. But we simply correct that problem through the use of objectivation.



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Posted By: Spartakus
Date Posted: 26-May-2005 at 06:25
When time ends.

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"There are worse crimes than burning books. One of them is not reading them. "
--- Joseph Alexandrovitch Brodsky, 1991, Russian-American poet, b. St. Petersburg and exiled 1972 (1940-1996)


Posted By: Constantine XI
Date Posted: 26-May-2005 at 23:56
History end when there is no one around to remember or learn it. Without anyone to learn the lessons of archaeology, books etc these things have no meaning. Its alot like the saying "cogit ergo sum"

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Posted By: strategos
Date Posted: 27-May-2005 at 00:31
When there is no one left to learn it or create it.

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http://theforgotten.org/intro.html


Posted By: eaglecap
Date Posted: 27-May-2005 at 02:03
Hopefully not in this manner:



Posted By: poirot
Date Posted: 27-May-2005 at 06:01
Very funny eaglecap!

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AAAAAAAAAA
"The crisis of yesterday is the joke of tomorrow.�   ~ HG Wells
           


Posted By: vagabond
Date Posted: 29-May-2005 at 02:22

I was a bit surprised that no mention has been made of Francis Fukuyama's book "The End of History" (1992) in which he says "What we are witnessing is not just the end of the Cold War, or a passing of a particular period of postwar history, but the end of history as such: that is, the end point of mankind's ideological evolution and the universalization of Western liberal democracy as the final form of human government."

History by definition is the story of humanity and the recording of human events.  IMO the end of history will come when the last two people on earth finish telling each other what happened yesterday and one of them dies, leaving the other with no one to relate his story to.



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In the time of your life, live - so that in that wonderous time you shall not add to the misery and sorrow of the world, but shall smile to the infinite delight and mystery of it. (Saroyan)


Posted By: Bishop
Date Posted: 08-Jun-2005 at 12:54
Real history can only be studied when the sources are unclassified information.  As long as events have current day implications it's not history it's propaganda. History needs objectivity, or atleast as close as man is capable.

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The road to hell is paved with good intentions.


Posted By: Yiannis
Date Posted: 08-Jun-2005 at 12:56
Originally posted by vagabond

I was a bit surprised that no mention has been made of Francis Fukuyama's book "The End of History" (1992)

Fukuyama is a fraud!



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The basis of a democratic state is liberty. Aristotle, Politics

Those that can give up essential liberty to obtain a temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. Benjamin Franklin


Posted By: Illuminati
Date Posted: 08-Jun-2005 at 21:14
History....


his·to·ry  
n. pl. his·to·ries
  1. A narrative of events; a story.
    1. A chronological record of events, as of the life or development of a people or institution, often including an explanation of or commentary on those events: a history of the Vikings.
    2. A formal written account of related natural phenomena: a history of volcanoes.
    3. A record of a patient's medical background.
    4. An established record or pattern of behavior: an inmate with a history of substance abuse.


All this talk about being aroundas long as man is or as long as everything exists is not correct.

By the definition of history, it will end the minute man stops recording events. It has nothing at all to do with man remembering history being around, its all about record keeping.


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Posted By: Goblin
Date Posted: 09-Jun-2005 at 15:41
Originally posted by gcle2003

When I graduated in 1956, history - even 'modern history' - ended in 1914, when, as the British Foreign Secretary put it, the lights were going out all over the world.

That was about a 40-year gap. Which would mean that nowadays the Kennedy assassination, say, would be 'history', but the Vietnam war would not be.

However, 1914 wasn't just 40 years before. It also marked a cataclysmic change (at least the beginning of one) in the world.

Is there a comparable date/event that now should be taken as marking the 'end of history'?

 

 

I find it odd how educators tend to seek a "beginning" and "end" to everything they teach.

In my opinion, there is no end point to History.  There never will be.  Even when we cease to exist, or our children cease to exist, or even the world, events will continue to happen.



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"Man is free at the moment he wishes to be." -Voltaire

http://www.precious-dreams.net/zombie/">



Posted By: Genghis
Date Posted: 12-Jun-2005 at 19:52
The International Baccalaureate program considers history teaching to end 10 years before the current date.  So, If I wanted to write a history paper the most recent event it could be about would have had to happen in 1995.  Anything past that they consider current events.

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Member of IAEA


Posted By: Thegeneral
Date Posted: 12-Jun-2005 at 20:13
Doesn't history mean the past?  If so, that would mean that history ends at the present.  As for what is taught as history, it depends on what you are taking and what the curiculum is.

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Posted By: Morgoth
Date Posted: 12-Jun-2005 at 21:07

Technically, history began when man started to write, and the period before this is prehistory. That would mean that history ends when man stops writing.

In my opinion, however, history is a much broader discipline which basically means, the study of the past. Natural history, prehistory and even current events are all, in my opinion, subsets of "history".

Now, obviously the most modern events have some difficulty in being analysed easily, but that does't matter, they are still history. As we learn more we discover more about this history.

So when does history end? I consider history to come up to and include the present.

 

Best Regards



Posted By: Vivek Sharma
Date Posted: 19-Oct-2006 at 08:12
We also have the history of geology, Plate movements, these are not written.

Any account of past written or unwritten is history.


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PATTON NAGAR, Brains win over Brawn


Posted By: Aelfgifu
Date Posted: 19-Oct-2006 at 08:18
No, history is written. The defenition of history is written past. The unwritten past is Archaeology. And there is not history of geology, there is only a history of the study of geology and a past of geological events...
 
It's all in the defenition. Wink


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Women hold their councils of war in kitchens: the knives are there, and the cups of coffee, and the towels to dry the tears.


Posted By: Vivek Sharma
Date Posted: 19-Oct-2006 at 08:56
Which is what history is, tales of the past. 

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PATTON NAGAR, Brains win over Brawn


Posted By: vulkan02
Date Posted: 19-Oct-2006 at 18:24
In its deepest meaning isn't history simply a tool man uses trying to escape his own annahilation? Isn't it all about trying to get the things that we think are going to save us and then realising that they won't?

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The beginning of a revolution is in reality the end of a belief - Le Bon
Destroy first and construction will look after itself - Mao


Posted By: Goban
Date Posted: 20-Oct-2006 at 00:18
In archaeology we were taught that a historic artifact is something older than 50 years. Now, if we use this same concept, histoy will always end 50 years before the present (not to be confused with "BP-Before Present" which actually has a set date of 1950, IIRC).
 
Therefore some of the members of AE are historic! Tongue


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The sharpest spoon in the drawer.


Posted By: Vivek Sharma
Date Posted: 20-Oct-2006 at 00:32
Right events of past 50 years should be classified as current affairs.

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PATTON NAGAR, Brains win over Brawn


Posted By: gcle2003
Date Posted: 20-Oct-2006 at 03:34
Originally posted by Vivek Sharma

Which is what history is, tales of the past. 
 
'Tales' are not history. 'Tales' are fiction.
 
There is a history of tales, but tales are not history.


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Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 20-Oct-2006 at 03:37
History ends today, tomorrow history ends tomorrow.
 
What lies in the past is history, present and future is unknown, but will soon become history.
 


Posted By: TheDiplomat
Date Posted: 20-Oct-2006 at 08:57
Originally posted by Morgoth

Technically, history began when man started to write, and the period before this is prehistory. That would mean that history ends when man stops writing.



This is the best response given here, in my opinion...

History started in Iraq thanks to the civilization who found writing,maybe history will end when someone with bad-intentions equpped with a war-head in  Iraq nukes up the whole world.


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ARDA:The best Turkish diplomat ever!



Posted By: Hellios
Date Posted: 20-Oct-2006 at 11:52
Originally posted by gcle2003

When I graduated in 1956, history - even 'modern history' - ended in 1914, when, as the British Foreign Secretary put it, the lights were going out all over the world.
 
That was about a 40-year gap. Which would mean that nowadays the Kennedy assassination, say, would be 'history', but the Vietnam war would not be.
 
However, 1914 wasn't just 40 years before. It also marked a cataclysmic change (at least the beginning of one) in the world.
 
Is there a comparable date/event that now should be taken as marking the 'end of history'? 
 
There are philosophical debates about how to define 'history'.  My personal definition is simple: History is anything that happened in the past.
 
Some teachers have strange opinions about this.  I've heard of teachers telling students that 'history' started at year 0, and I don't agree with teachers who say that any events that occurred before man started writing are not part of human history - it's an idea that historians have tried to make us believe for thousands of years until challenged by archaeologists, anthropologists, paleontologists, etc...
 


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Posted By: rider
Date Posted: 20-Oct-2006 at 12:06
Well, to speak in my senses, history began when materia/antimateria was created and from it the reaction to create Galaxies.

Therefore, history ends when materia and antimateria disappear or evaporate. So, basically, history will never end, nor has it ended.

NOTE: I just remembered that pressing Insert after a certain English/Latin character, it becomes Greek (plus, characters like 'th' or whatever, change automatically into 'th'='þ'.)

Λονγ λιvε þε Γρεεκ·

Τηεsε αρε ωιερδ χαραcτερσ· Ι ωουλδ συγγεστ γοινγ ρεvερσε - fρομ βαcκ το υσ usινγ Ινσερτ·


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Posted By: Hellios
Date Posted: 20-Oct-2006 at 12:20
Originally posted by rider

NOTE: I just remembered that pressing Insert after a certain English/Latin character, it becomes Greek (plus, characters like 'th' or whatever, change automatically into 'th'='þ'.)

Λονγ λιvε þε Γρεεκ·

Τηεsε αρε ωιερδ χαραcτερσ· Ι ωουλδ συγγεστ γοινγ ρεvερσε - fρομ βαcκ το υσ usινγ Ινσερτ·
 
Neat, lol...


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Posted By: Aelfgifu
Date Posted: 20-Oct-2006 at 12:21
That insert trick doen's work for me.. I just copy-paste them from word...
 
Besides, how does the computer know th has to be thau or thorn?


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Women hold their councils of war in kitchens: the knives are there, and the cups of coffee, and the towels to dry the tears.


Posted By: rider
Date Posted: 20-Oct-2006 at 17:24
*If you start from the end of the word, it checks what the characters are...

Like when I have the word 'rabbit', I begin from 't' and move backwards pressing Insert before each new character. so rabbit-ραββιτ...


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Posted By: Celestial
Date Posted: 20-Oct-2006 at 22:16
History ends when Armegeddon happens. Everybody dies so no one is left to explain history.


Posted By: Hellios
Date Posted: 20-Oct-2006 at 23:05
SubjectTopic: When does history end?
 
When does the history of WHAT end.  You didn't specify.
 
What do you think about this?:
 
The history of the universe would end if the universe stops existing.
The history of humanity would end if humanity stops existing.
The history of the Empire State Building can end with another 9/11.
The history of the dinosaurs ended when they stopped existing.
The history of the earth began when the planet started forming.
 
The history of the Empire State Building:
 
1799: The City of New York sells a virgin tract (now bounded by Broadway and Sixth Avenue on the west, Madison Avenue on the east, 33rd Street on the south and 36th Street on the north) to John Thompson for $2,600. He farms it.
 
1825:  Thompson sells the farm to Charles Lawton for $10,000.
 
1827:  William Backhouse Astor, the second son of John Jacob Astor, buys the farm for $20,500 as an investment.
 
1859:  John Jacob Astor, Jr. erects a mansion on the northwest corner of 33rd Street and Fifth Avenue.
 
1862:  John Jacob, Jr.'s younger brother, William Backhouse Astor, builds his mansion next door at the southwest corner of 34th Street and Fifth Avenue.
 
1893:  William Waldorf Astor, son of John Jacob Astor, Jr., razes his inherited mansion and erects the Waldorf Hotel on the corner of Fifth Avenue and 33rd Street.
 
1897:  Mrs. William Backhouse Astor, sister-in-law of John Jacob, Jr., allows her mansion at 34th Street and Fifth Avenue to be razed and the Astoria Hotel is erected on the site. The new complex is known as the Waldorf-Astoria Hotel.
 
1928:  The Waldorf-Astoria Hotel is sold to Bethlehem Engineering Corporation for an estimated $20 million.
 
1929:  John Jakob Raskob (creator of General Motors), Coleman du Pont, Pierre S. du Pont (president of E.I. Du Pont de Nemours), Louis G. Kaufman and Ellis P. Earle, form Empire State, Inc. and name Alfred E. Smith, former Governor of New York and Presidential Candidate, to head the corporation.
 
1930:  Excavation of the site where the Empire State Building would stand begins on January 22nd.
 
1930:  On March 17, construction of the Empire State Building began. Under the direction of architects Shreve, Lamb & Harmon Associates, and a peak labor force of 3,000 men, framework rose at a rate of 4 ½ stories per week.
 
1930:  The masonry work for the building, which began in June of the same year, is completed on November 13.
 
1931:  On May 1st, President Hoover presses a button in Washington, D.C. officially opening and turning on the Empire State Building's lights.
 
1945:  On July 28, an Army Air Corps B-25 crashes into the Building at the 79th floor level. Fourteen people died. Damage to the Building was $1 million but the structural integrity of the building was not affected.
 
1951:  The Building is sold by the John J. Raskob estate for $34 million to a group headed by Roger I. Stevens. At the same time, Prudential Insurance Company of America buys the Building for $17 million and enters into a long-term ground lease with the owners. In 1954, a Chicago group headed by Col. Henry J. Crown buys the Building for $51.5 million.
 
1981:  On May 18, the New York City Landmarks Preservation Commission declares the Building a Landmark.
 
1986:  The Empire State Building is recognized as a National Historic Landmark by the National Parks Services, I.S. Department of the Interior and a commemorative plaque was awarded.
 
Source: http://www.esbnyc.com/tourism/tourism_history.cfm?CFID=19438138&CFTOKEN=74389606 - http://www.esbnyc.com/tourism/tourism_history.cfm?CFID=19438138&CFTOKEN=74389606
 


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Posted By: Hrothgar
Date Posted: 21-Oct-2006 at 14:23
history ends with the absolute idea.

one world government.


Posted By: Imperator Invictus
Date Posted: 21-Oct-2006 at 17:55
History ends now...because "now" marks the transition between past (i.e. history) and the future.

In practice, it seems like 1990 is a good stopping point for "history". Of course, in the future, that will change. I've also seen history textbooks written to within a few years to the present.



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