Was st. Ludmila a martyr or not?
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Category: Regional History or Period History
Forum Name: Medieval Europe
Forum Discription: The Middle Ages: AD 500-1500
URL: http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=35776
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Topic: Was st. Ludmila a martyr or not?
Posted By: younghistorian
Subject: Was st. Ludmila a martyr or not?
Date Posted: 15-Sep-2015 at 14:18
I have read very often, that St. Ludmila (860-921) is a martyr, she is even depicted with palm tree on the following photos, which is a symbol of martyrs:
everytime with a plam tree
http://catholicsaints.info/wp-content/uploads/img-Saint-Ludmila1.jpg
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-EBcfU7jcC0Y/Tbv04frUKLI/AAAAAAAABhE/sMj2NQM913M/s1600/P1040772b.JPG
https://www.colourbox.com/preview/3599564-st-ludmila-statue-from-charles-bridge-in-prague.jpg
https://d38ls2kcjnhfdj.cloudfront.net/925ec4cb-eb95-4c6c-bed7-2a342c3eca57.jpg
got strangled
http://www.digital-guide.cz/media/thumbs/digital_guide/selekce_realie/vyznamne_osobnosti/svetci/sv_ludmila/ludmila-vrazda_jpg_340x267_crop_q85.jpg
According to a definition a martyr is someone who suffers and is killed because of their religious faith.
I have also read a story that when they went to kill her, she asked them not to make it bloody, so they strangled her.
And according to:
http://historum.com/european-history/90465-why-they-strangled-st-ludmila.html
She was killed because of a reason that has nothing to do with faith.
Conclusion: she is not a martyr.
So why they depict her with the palm tree and talk about her that she is a martyr?
links:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ludmila_of_Bohemia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martyr
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Replies:
Posted By: Centrix Vigilis
Date Posted: 15-Sep-2015 at 15:22
Depends on viewpoint...context..and more importantly the 'authority' that conveys Sainthood.
you can for example be in complete disagreement..your prerogative...but to the authority who 'Sainted' her. She remains one.
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09416a.htm
My supposition is that she became a martyr as a result of her being one of the first christainzied nobles of that fascinating and ancient land. and due to her association with the 'good king'...not to mentioned being murdered by opponents of Christianity.
When all else fails and you require more information. Seek out your local RCC priest-Bishop. They remain the experts in their faith.
CV
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"Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence"
S. T. Friedman
Pilger's law: 'If it's been officially denied, then it's probably true'
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Posted By: Prosto
Date Posted: 02-Oct-2015 at 10:39
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No she wasn't, but she was part of the royal czech family, so she had to be eliminated same as all others, and then germans took the rule, aka "holy roman empire", but on the other hand she was actually loyal to germans, and her genus continued many years after... so maybe she was killed to keep czech national rule, instead of be ruled by germans, and that should be why germans called her "holy" after "přemyslovci" genus was completly eliminated and catholicism completely took over czech lands, in times when they had ultimate power, remember it was church who ruled in those times, not kings, from this conclusion I think she was a traitor not martyr, but again the one who killed her also relied on germans... just different region, so this is really complicated part of history, both women were wrong, but they competed over power, and one died, nothing to do with religion, but with more complex political believes, how it ended we all know, their genus died and they lost rule, but it would happen with Ludmila or Drahomira, it didn't matter
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Posted By: Centrix Vigilis
Date Posted: 02-Oct-2015 at 13:04
Originally posted by Prosto
No she wasn't, but she was part of the royal czech family, so she had to be eliminated same as all others, and then germans took the rule, aka "holy roman empire", but on the other hand she was actually loyal to germans, and her <span id="result_" ="short_text"="" lang="en"><span ="hps"="">genus continued many years after... so maybe she was killed to keep czech national rule, instead of be ruled by germans, and that should be why germans called her "holy" after "přemyslovci" genus was completly eliminated and catholicism completely took over czech lands, in times when they had ultimate power, remember it was church who ruled in those times, not kings, from this conclusion I think she was a traitor not martyr, but again the one who killed her also relied on germans... just different region, so this is really complicated part of history, both women were wrong, but they competed over power, and one died, nothing to do with religion, but with more complex political believes, how it ended we all know, their genus died and they lost rule, but it would happen with Ludmila or Drahomira, it didn't matter</span></span>
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I would certainly agree with the analysis of the internecine family politics; and power-influence struggle being a historical factor...but Drahomira held no religious authority...to create Ludmilla the status of martyr.
So your statement that it had nothing to with religion is incorrect.
For as you aptly note, the Church wielded remarkable power and authority in this era... and it was in fact the church who granted the recognition.
Now the more interesting question would then be ...why?
For we also can agree that the machinations of the RCC, in this era, also influenced and often determined; as well as legitimized, political-nationalistic actions and political power elites and ultimate familial dynasties.
And one, if not the probable answer... is that Ludmilla had a greater support basis within the church...as the historical record has indicated. Given her own reported devotion to the church and instruction to the 'good king'; with the result being his Christian upbringing.
For in the end, it was the original oral traditions held by the people; that created the legend, and resulted in the status being confirmed.
Consequently it had a great deal to do with religion indeed.
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"Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence"
S. T. Friedman
Pilger's law: 'If it's been officially denied, then it's probably true'
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