Semiramis
Printed From: History Community ~ All Empires
Category: Regional History or Period History
Forum Name: Ancient Mesopotamia, Near East and Greater Iran
Forum Discription: Babylon, Egypt, Persia and other civilizations of the Near East from ancient times to 600s AD
URL: http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=35219
Printed Date: 25-Apr-2024 at 05:28
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Topic: Semiramis
Posted By: Arthur-Robin
Subject: Semiramis
Date Posted: 28-Dec-2014 at 08:00
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I think i have already posted this in another topic (Alusharshid, where/when Sharrukin warned me it was going off-topic). But the comment form on this site (http://www.ancient.eu/article/744/) isn't working and i don't like having spent the time for nothing (and my blog is too slow lately / now a days) so may as well post it here (since not much happening here for ages). (Always a challenge to remember to search forum first to see if already a topic/thread. I couldn't find one.) According to Hislop the golden cup of Semiramis is in/from Pliny. (It also sounds abit like the Holy Grail?) As to Semiramis i have a theory/thesis that Semiramis of Babylon is at least partly based on Hammurabi. (I may be possibly wrong ["pseudo-history/un-scholarly"], but may not be.) I can't see that Babylonian Semiramis (only/wholly) matches late Assyrian queen Shammuramat ca 800 bc. Earlier modern scholars disputed whether there was 1 Semiramis or 2/+. Biblical scholars believe that Semiramis [1] was at the time of the Tower of Babel. However, could the Babylonian queen Semiramis/S(h)ammu-ramat 1 (of 2) or 2 (of 3) (of Dio Sic, Herodotus, Ctesias, Josephus, Berosus, etc) be (C)hammu-rabi/Khammu Rabi/Khammuragas/kimta-rapashti (and/or Shamsiadad 1)? (Though I have seen a source that reckons Berosus mentioned both Semiramis and Hammurabi?) Some similarities include: ->Semi-ramis 1/2 (legendary): described as “king”/“wore a garment that did not show whether she was man or woman”, Babylon/Assyria/Chaldea queen, 42yrs (or 55yrs Belus) (62 yrs old), wife of Ninus son of Belus, warrior/conquered whole middle eastern world/invaded Kush & India/military campaign against Medes & Chaldeans, founded/(re-)built Babylon/Hanging Gardens/embankments/walls/many cities, daughter of Syrianess, Syrian letters, Ninus demanded Semiramis from Menones, “woman of palace of Shamsi-adad”, of Mede mtns (nth), plants/flowers/trees, Nineveh, Ishtar, [shepherd Simmos/Simmas, abandoned as child,] Shammuramat-Su (river), etc. ->Hammu-rabi (historical): toga like robe, (darling of the sun god,) Babylon king, 42yrs or 55 yrs, close to date of Belus, a victorious general/warrior, great builder of cities/irrigation systems/temples/fortifications, Amorite/W Semit/from Syria, demanded return of statues taken by Khedorlaomer, conquered Shamsi-adad's dyn, Kassite from Elam mtns, lotus, Nineveh temple of Ishtar, [shepherd of his people, Shamash/Utu, Sippar, trial by water/cf Moses,] Nahar-Khammurabi (river), etc. A list of Hammurabi's ancestors has some same names as early kings of Assyrian king list. Semiramis & Hammurabi (42 yrs, afterAdusin/Abilsin of Babylon, &/or after Waradsin &/or Rim-sin/Eri-aku of Larsa) may be same as Queen Homai of Persian (32 yrs, successor of Ardshir)? Ctesias' Attosa ("Semiramis"?) date 1448- 1425/1428-1421 is close to 1419 bc date of some for Venus tablets [&/or "ca 1565-1522 bc" for Hammurabi?] |
Replies:
Posted By: Sidney
Date Posted: 28-Dec-2014 at 11:18
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I remember reading Hislop many years ago. He was trying to prove that Catholicism (as opposed to his own Protestantism) was a continuation of the paganism of ancient Babylon founded by Nimrod and Semiramis.
The golden cup he refers to is the imagery from the Bible - book of Jeremiah and the book of Revelation - wherein a lady portrays Babylon and her cup portrays false teachings. But a footnote (I've doubled checked) refers to Cyrus the Great conquering Babylon and finding the wine-bowl of Semiramis, weighing 15 talents. It doesn't sounds like the Holy Grail, which is smaller and of a different material. Semiramis seems to have gathered a large body of traditions around her. What do the earliest records say about her? |
Posted By: Sidney
Date Posted: 28-Dec-2014 at 18:13
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I do not know if he is the earliest reference, but Herodotus, in Book I of his Histories says;
"Of this Babylon, besides many other rulers, of whom I shall make mention in the Assyrian history, and who added improvement to the walls and temples, there were also two who were women. Of these, the one who ruled first, named Semiramis, who lived five generations before the other, produced banks of earth in the plain which are a sight worth seeing; and before this the river used to flood like a sea over the whole plain. The queen who lived after her time, named Nitocris, was wiser than she who had reigned before....This queen then is reported to have been such as I have described: and it was the son of this woman, bearing the same name as his father, Labynetos, and being ruler over the Assyrians, against whom Cyrus was marching." So according to this chronology of Herodotus, Semiramis is six generations before the time that Cyrus took Babylon in 540 BC. I don't know what the other sources say. |
Posted By: Centrix Vigilis
Date Posted: 29-Dec-2014 at 04:16
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Sources include Diodorus Siculus, Justin; and then there is the Behistun Inscription.
Tho there is a problem with the Assyrians Kings list ie. 'Ninus'. In cases like this I'd revert back to drinking tiswin except my Doc has me off the stuff. otoh; various reports have her as a 'hottie' so all is not lost. ps. late note. I couldn't remember why just a bit ago; of why Diodorus left me with the impression she was a 'hottie'. Then a shock from petting the cat reminded me. She was originally married supposedly to one 'Onnes'; a general of the mythical king. Once the King saw her, he forced his general to commit suicide and then married her. Must of been a hottie then. Kings don't do that for the less than fairer eh. Sound familiar? It should. David-Bathsheba-Uriah etc. Damn I need to pet the cat more. ------------- "Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence" S. T. Friedman Pilger's law: 'If it's been officially denied, then it's probably true' |
Posted By: Arthur-Robin
Date Posted: 29-Dec-2014 at 05:48
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Thanks Sidney, Good point, I hadn't thought of the earilest. My sources/refs include: 'sharrukin', ceram, herodotus*, josephus, pratney, hislop, ctesias*, dio Sic*, wiki, hoeh, Armenian, pliny, Berosus, me/Sean, Lissner, rawlinson, layard, eusebius, clinton, syncellus, and others not recorded/remembered. I'm not sure which of them is the earliest, maybe Herodotus as you say. The Herodotus 5 gens before Nitocris &/or Labynetos [Nabonidus (of the Naramsin date)?] is interesting (i had noticed that myself too but left that out). A generation [or dynasty?] can be either 20? 30, 40 or 100/110/120 years [or even a phoenix?]. So 5/6 gens could be anywhere from 200 to 500/600 years. And Nitocris can be any of a few of possibilities. So Hammurabi/Shamsiadad 1/Venus tablets and the orthodox Shammuramat/Shamsiadad 5 are both possible? (She is "Babylonian" not Assyrian (excepting Ninus & Ninyas)?) Though Babylon ziggurat was built by a king 42 generations before Nebuchadnezzar. (Is 42 gens related to Semiramis' 42 years? [and Jonah's 40 days?]) Yes the golden cup is in the bible in Jeremiah and in Revelation/Apocalyspe, and there is the footnote about Cyrus. But according to Hislop the 'golden cup of Semiramis' is from Pliny (not bible). What material was the grail? The grail is often considered a female/yoni symbol/vessel hence Sara, Mary [Guinevere?, Igraine?, Yseult?] (The stone is a male/linga symbol?) Thanks Centrix Onnes sounds abit like Oannes, though probably not related? |
Posted By: Centrix Vigilis
Date Posted: 29-Dec-2014 at 08:17
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Oannes as I recall was a Bab myth sea god. supposedly taught wisdom iirc. ------------- "Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence" S. T. Friedman Pilger's law: 'If it's been officially denied, then it's probably true' |
Posted By: Sidney
Date Posted: 29-Dec-2014 at 15:11
My first instinct would be say that since it is Herodotus using the term 'generation' in relation to Semiramis, then it is best to see how he uses the term elsewhere in his History. He does not use it to mean 'dynasty' or 'phoenix', but clearly links it either to a parent-child relationship, or as a way of counting successive monarchs. 6 generations, for Herodotus, would be no more than 200 years in his reckoning. |
Posted By: Sidney
Date Posted: 29-Dec-2014 at 15:23
The link between Semiramis/Onnes/Ninus made me think of Bathsheba/Uriah/David also. Unfortunately the circumstances are different - Uriah was unaware of David's attraction to his wife, and died in battle whilst abstaining from sex. On the other hand, Onnes knew that Ninus was after his wife and hung himself at a result, having had frequent sex with her whilst on campaign. |
Posted By: Sidney
Date Posted: 29-Dec-2014 at 16:03
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Diodorus Siculus, in his Library of History Vol.II, recounts the history of Semiramis. His queen is quite obviously a mythological person – the daughter of a sea goddess; fed by doves; brought up by shepherds; so beautiful that the king wished to marry her so her existing husband voluntarily hanged himself; wife of King Ninus who built Ninevah and she herself built Babylon; she was a warrior who (nearly) conquered the great empires of Asia, Egypt, Ethiopia and India; and the end of her life she turned into a dove and flew up to heaven where she is a goddess.
Chronologically Diodorus places her at the start of the Babylonian history. Her husband, Ninus, was the first king of Assyria. She reigned alone for 42 years (until she was 62 years old). Her son, Ninyas, succeeded her as the second king of Assyria. From Ninyas to Sardanapalus, the last king of her dynasty, is 30 generations of kings, succeeding father to son for 1360 years. Diodorus asserts that 20 generations from Ninyas, when the Assyrians had ruled 1,000 years, the Trojan War occurred. He then contradicts/adds to his earlier statement of time, saying that Sardanapalus was the 30th in line from Ninus, there being about 1400 years of rulership until the Medes overthrew him. Diodorus fixes the Trojan War as 408 years before the 1st Olympiad (ie 1184 BC), hence the Babylonian kings reigned (using his slightly movable figures) from c.2200 – 800 BC. He gives 9 successive Kings of the Medes as ruling over the jurisdiction of Babylon for c.250 years after the fall of Sardanapalus, down to the reign of Astyges who was overthrown by Cyrus the Persian. Since Astyges' downfall is dated to 550 BC, this fits neatly with the rest of Diodorus' timeline (whether or not it is true). Diodorus' date for Semiramis is therefore c.2200 BC. This is very different from the date suggested in Herodotus (of c.740 BC). |
Posted By: Arthur-Robin
Date Posted: 29-Dec-2014 at 21:55
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There are clearly 2 or 3 different times confounded. 1 is Nimrod/Babel c 2000s bc. 2 is Hammurabi/Shamsiadad I c 1400/1300s bc. 3 is Shammuramat/Shamshiadad V/Jonah c 800 bc. The 1st king of Assyria and built Nineveh fits with the Old Assyrian/Shamsiadad 1, and start of Babylonian history (and the "1st" of Herodotus?) fits with Old Babylonian/Hammurabi & Venus tablets (which was also confounded with Nimrod time, and either/both could match the 42 ages from king that built Babylon ziggurat to Nebuchadnezzar II). Waddell makes a good case for Hammurabi being Pundarika of Indian lists. Doves (& sea) connect with Jonah? (&/or doves connect with Holy Spirit, compare Isis goddess of wind?) "Myth" has historical truth. I don't agree with the generation/s of Herodotus, but i could be wrong, and yours could fit with [170/166 yrs of Newton?]. "Herodotus said the Assyrians were masters of Asia for 520 years" [from "1220 to 700"?] 72 books of Bel, 42 ages (Nebuchadnezzar), 30/20 gens (Dio Sic), 5 gens (Herodotus). |
Posted By: Arthur-Robin
Date Posted: 29-Dec-2014 at 22:29
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"And if Ctesias says that the Assyrian power is many years older than the Greek, the exodus of Moses from Egypt will appear to have taken place in the 42nd year of the Assyrian empire, in the 32nd year of the reign of Belochus, in the time of Amosis the Egyptian, and of Inachus the Argive." - Clement of Alexandria, Stomta. [Note the 42 and 32?] "According to the history of Thallus, Belus preceded the Trojan war 322 years.—Theoph. ad Aut." [Contrast this with your Dio Sic period/length?] the Venus tablets of Ammisaduga (1st Bab Dyn) have been dated anywhere from 2113/2105 bc or 1977/1956 bc to 1419 bc to 8th cent bc. Sayce's date for Hammurabi from Annalistic tablet is 2290-2235 bc. “The astronomical observations sent by Kallisthenes from Babylon to Aristotle in 331 bc reached back 1903 yrs to 2234 bc”. the Assyrians had periods of 1805 yrs, the last one ending in 712 bc. Ninus (contemporary of Semiramis) was said to have been 1995 years before Philip of Macedon (197bc), or 2192bc. Clinton's/Layard's arrived at date for Ninus is 2182 bc. Hislop/Eusebius/Syncellus attributed date for Ninus is 1996/1987 bc. Asshurbanipal's statement that he recaptured the statue of Nana which had been carried of from Uruk to Susa by Kutir-nakhunte (contemp of Samsuiluna) some 1635 or 1850 years before him (650 bc) giving a date of 2285 or 2220 bc. "according to Stephanos of Byzantium Bab built 1002yrs before Trojan war (1229) which would bring us to 2231 bc." "Ctesias noted that the Assyrian power endured 1306 [or dated Semiramis 1500] years before the time of the Median revolt (= 2006 (to 700?) Ctesias' Belus 2286-2231.) "Berosus acc to Pliny stated that these observations began at Babylon 490 years before the Greek era of Phoroneus (1753bc) ie 2243 bc, though Epigenes made it 720 yrs (2473 bc)." "Berosus and Critodemus, ... extend the period of the observations to 480 years." "among the Babylonians were preserved observations of the stars, inscribed upon baked tiles, extending to a period of 720 years." [i wonder if 1753bc may really be 753 bc of Rome?] Naramsin 3200 yrs before Nabonidus. Belus 55 yrs ~ "sargon 55y"/"naramsin 56y" / "hammurabi 55y"? |
Posted By: Sidney
Date Posted: 31-Dec-2014 at 15:05
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Does Hammurabi appear in any traditional accounts? He and his law code only seem to be known from archaeology, rather than lasting any traditional history.
Semiramis was reported as a warrior and builder (although there is some contradiction over what she is said to have built), but I have not read anything that links her with making laws. Who were the great law givers in Assyrian traditional chronology? |
Posted By: Arthur-Robin
Date Posted: 31-Dec-2014 at 17:55
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That is a good point/angle i hadn't thought much about, except that i had thought that women are known for law even nowadays. Perhaps i am wrong, but we have alot of correspondences between the 2 (including the names [though sources claim her name is from name+exalted or summat "dove (goddess loves her)" or "images/things of Shemiram" or "manifestation of the exalted" or "Semiramis goddesses"], etc) which can't just be wiped-out just by one possible missing thing. She is noted for or associated with wisdom / known for intelligence, &/or "daughter of god of wisdom" according to 2 reference books online. (Though that may be wisdom in other things/areas not in laws/etc.) (Hammurabi's law code was based on earlier codes of Eshnunna etc?) Hammurabi on the law code wears a toga that looks feminine-ish-like, like Semiramis is desrcibed as wearing a costume that not easy to tell her gender, and which seems to be where the mis-idea that he was a woman. The "Behistun inscription decreed by Semiramis" of Dio Sic might even connect with Hammurabi code possibly? If she is a confounding of 2 or more persons then she wouldn't have all the attributes of one? Dio Sic says "conflicting accounts". (It is also possible that her warrior/etc aspect/s is focused on more detracting from her other apsects?) [?Dante's] "Semiramis as Queen, as established successor to Ninus, her husband, and as the maker of law...."? "In the first row facing the angels and receiving the "Divine Law" are Moses as well as Numa (Rome), Queen Semiramis of Babylon, Romulus (Rome), Confucius ..."? I can't get through to the Dio Sic book 2 link page; and i haven't got the time etc to do more research now (esp with slower-than-used-to-be dialup). I'm never ever posting online ever again, every tiny little topic just takes far too much excessive time and space and effort, esp when people seemingly trying to make me look bad/wrong. No one is right/wrong about everything, and anything i am wrong about people use to detract from what i am right about (just like the establishment discredit a person wrongly or/& rightly so they can dismiss everything they said/wrote.) (Yeah may be i am paranoid or bad attitude, or maybe it is my hell situation/"life".) Hammurabi seems to mainly be archaeological, though a source claims he is in Berosus? He may be Pundarika of Indian. He was a warrior and a builder too. |
Posted By: Sidney
Date Posted: 01-Jan-2015 at 09:43
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Thanks Arthur-Robin.
Semiramis was a beautiful warrior. She seems to be linked with the goddess of war and love, Astarte, which might be what her whole origin is, or something she/her court encouraged. Law giving is non existent in her early myths. Where is she called the daughter of the god of wisdom - which god? Your sources for her association with law are a 14th Century poet and a 19th Century painter - evidence for a much later connection. Hammurabi doesn't appear in Berosus. It is just that trying to match Berosus' chronology with known archaeology it is said Hammurabi must be part of this or that dynasty, not that his name appears in the actual writing. Semiramis' name, however, does appear, but if we accept the place assigned to Hammurabi then she is separated from him by hundreds of years. Berosus says that Semiramis reigned and was succeeded by a number of kings who reigned for 526 years. After this was a Chaldean king called Phulus, who is identified with Tiglath-Pileser (originally named Pulu) who conquered Babylon in 729 BC. This puts Semiramis at 1255 BC. So we now have a third date! Velleius Paterculus, writing in c.30 AD, says that the Medes overthrew Sardanapalus 870 years ago (ie c.840 BC), and that Sardanapalus was 33rd in descent from Ninus and Semiramis, who were the founders of Babylon 1070 years earlier still (ie c.1910 BC). Elsewhere the same author says that Ninus began to reign 1995 years ago (ie c. 1965 BC). So a fourth date! |
Posted By: Centrix Vigilis
Date Posted: 01-Jan-2015 at 15:21
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told ya.. she was a hottie. ------------- "Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence" S. T. Friedman Pilger's law: 'If it's been officially denied, then it's probably true' |
Posted By: Sidney
Date Posted: 01-Jan-2015 at 15:48
Well, here she is courtesy of Hollywood 1954;
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Posted By: Sidney
Date Posted: 01-Jan-2015 at 15:51
And here's a bit more of her!
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Posted By: Arthur-Robin
Date Posted: 04-Jan-2015 at 13:12
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I'm just returning to say sorry to Sidney (& AE) for being negative/grumpy, it is not your fault but because i am Very angry of the hell i been suffering (not being able to do my off-computer studies, being single at 41.5, trouble on other forums like historum, the flats painting here, throat problems, smart meters trouble, etc etc). (I have to apologise i case i am suffering more hell because of it.) (Perhaps i should not have posted if i am not able to spend so much time and effort researching and answering everything.) However i am intending/having to not post anymore or else cut back from being/posting online much anymore as i have other things i need/want to do, and i don't like the way i have again been falsely made to look wrong just by one or a few dubious things just the exact same way they did on Historum. As to Semiramis/Hammurabi I don't agree that law giving is non existant or that if it is that that one or few thing/s negates all our other evidences. Perhaps i am wrong about Semiramis/Hammurabi, though perhaps possibly not. Orthodox claim Hammurabi is from 'ammu "paternal kinsman" + rapi "healer". Waddell claims Hammu is lotus in Sumerian and a symbol of beauty and divinity, like Semiramis is also "(semi) divine/deity/goddess" and beauty. (He has hammu + rabu "great".) Hammurabi had to deal with floods, Semiramis did embankments? If the Simmas/Simmos (&/or Semi-) of Semiramis connects with Shamash/Samas then that is another indirect connection of her with law/justice (as Shamash is god of justice/law who gives law code to Hammurabi on the code stela)? Each of the points listed for Semiramis and for Hammurabi in the first post correspond, perhaps i should have arranged them by matching points. On the "33rd generation" and "dates" see the post where i gave 42 ages and other quotes. Hammurabi was ca 13th dynasty in Egypt because of synchronism of his dynasty and that dynasty. Moses ca 1400s was end of 12th dynasty. Semiramis is a legend and no one has proven any other match even "Astarte/Ishtar" or the origin of her name. Hammurabis orthodox dates are wrong, and Semiramis orthodox dates are unreliable as even you yourself have shown. Some of the dates for Semiramis are close to ours. There is obvious confounding of two or more difference persons/times (Nimrod, Sargon, Hammurabi, Shammuramat?) as i already said/showed. Some of the figures may be not literal but need decoding. Maybe 1070 is double 526? There is a statue from Mari of fishing goddess that might have been confounded since same time as Hammurabi? * everyoine is against me. Even Atlantipedia have told me they are going to post editorial comments on me/,my thesis that i will dislike (and they say they are not going to debate it). |
Posted By: Centrix Vigilis
Date Posted: 04-Jan-2015 at 17:18
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Whether ya owe Sid an 'a' or not is moot. What YA are doing tho is going on to the pity pot simply because ya opponents don't see a value or contributive effort on your part.
Bad move. Who in the hell made them any more of importance than they might or might not be. You do. Stop the bullshit stop the whine. And learn to live with disappointment. I should have made full Colonel...I didn't. I should have been given even more awards than I was. But I didn't get em. I should have stayed married and drank less...but I didn't. So ya see it's easy to let the whine run your mindset. Dont. It merely adds to the shit ya already got to deal with. I personally believe ya offer a great deal in any effort you provide.. and your efforts are genuine and sincere and in the end that's good enuff. Make yourself proud and satisfy yourself first. Foik the rest. Amen. ------------- "Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence" S. T. Friedman Pilger's law: 'If it's been officially denied, then it's probably true' |
Posted By: Arthur-Robin
Date Posted: 05-Jan-2015 at 19:01
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ok, thank-you Centrix. sorry i don't have any thing on topic to post right now. I have just been sorting-out my Semiramis file(s) old and new notes to try see/work-out whats what. |
Posted By: Arthur-Robin
Date Posted: 07-Jan-2015 at 12:07
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It looks like i may possibly have been wrong about Semiramis, though possibly not. I've rearranged the first post matches point by point. It is possible that they might perhaps be able to each and all be picked apart because i wasn't careful with my sources. It looks like Semiramis could be any of a number of times (including Nimrod, Gilgamesh, Sargon, Hammurabi, Tukltininurta, Shamsiadad 5). Semiramis: name Semiramis/S(h)ammu-ramat/Shamiram (supposed/proposed to be from summat "dove (goddess loves her)", or shem "name" + aram "exalted", or shemiramoth "images/things of Shemiram", or "manifestation of the exalted", or "Semiramis goddesses"]). Hammurabi: name (C)hammu-rabi/Khammu Rabi/Khammuragas/kimta-rapashti/'ammu-rapi (from Sumerian khammu/khamu/khamala "lotus/plant" or a god Hammu or 'ammu "paternal kinsman", + raba/rabi "great" or rapi "healer"?); (and/or Shamsiadad 1/[Sosarmos]) Homai: Homai. [There are some known other possible examples of s(h)/(c)h and m/g/b interchanges within/between the languages.] Semiramis: legendary/myth, mentioned in/by Berosus, Hammurabi: historical/archaeological, not mentioned in Berosus / one source reckons he is also mentioned in/by Berosus? Semiramis: described as “king”/“wore a garment that did not show whether she was man or woman”/queen, Hammurabi: toga like robe [that looks feminine-ish-like], (darling of the sun god,) king/lugal/en/"lord"; Homai: queen. Semiramis: Babylon(ian)/Assyria/Chaldea queen, Hammurabi: Babylon king, [Old Assyrian Period,] A list of Hammurabi's ancestors has some same names as early kings of Assyrian king list. Semiramis: 42yrs (or 55yrs Belus) (62 yrs old), Hammurabi: 42yrs or 55 yrs, [21 yrs / 56 yrs Venus tablets?], Homai: 32 yrs. Semiramis: wife of Ninus son of Belus, Hammurabi: associated with/close to date of Belus, Semiramis: warrior/conquered whole middle eastern world/invaded Kush & India/military campaign against Medes & Chaldeans, Hammurabi: a victorious general/warrior / won series of wars / all of Mesopotamia / empire, Homai: Persian. Pundarika: Indian. Semiramis: founded/(re-)built Babylon/Hanging Gardens/embankments/walls/many cities, Hammurabi: public works/great builder of cities/irrigation systems/temples/fortifications/walls, had to deal with floods, Semiramis: daughter of Syrianess, Syrian letters, Hammurabi: Amorite/W Semit/from Syria, Semiramis: Ninus demanded Semiramis from Menones/[Onnes], Hammurabi: demanded return of statues taken by Khedorlaomer, Semiramis: of Mede mountains (north), (campaign against Medes,) 'Semiramis Mts' (Persia). Hammurabi: Kassite from Elam mountains, Homai: Persian. Semiramis: “woman of palace of Shamsi-adad [5?]”, Hammurabi: conquered Shamsi-adad [1]'s dyn, Semiramis: "1st", [1st king of Assyria, built Nineveh,] start of Babylonian history, Hammurabi: [Old Assyrian/Shamsiadad 1,] 1st Babylonian dyn/Old Babylonian/Hammurabi, [Venus tablets]. Semiramis: Nineveh/Ninus/Ninyas, Ishtar/Astarte, Hammurabi: Nineveh temple of Ishtar, [Venus tablets], Semiramis: plants/flowers/trees/hanging gardens, Hammurabi: lotus/plant, Pundarika: lotus. Semiramis: Shammuramat-Su, Hammurabi: Nahar-Khammurabi, Semiramis: beauty, (semi) divine/deity/goddess, Hammurabi: lotus a symbol of beauty and divinity, Semiramis: date 2200/2192/2182/2006/1996/1987/1965/1910 / 1255 / "c800/740" ; Ctesias' Attosa ("Semiramis (2)"?) date 1448- 1425/1428-1421; Hammurabi: date "2290-2235"; [&/or "ca 1565-1522 bc" for Hammurabi?]; [synchronism of 1st Bab dyn with 13th dynasty of Egypt (Moses ca 1400s was end of 12th dyn)]; [still-present orthodox 1st Bab dyn date is either 1848 (high) / 1792 (conventional/middle) / 1736 (low) / 16xx (ultrashort/ultralow)]; [Venus tablets have been dated as either 2113/2105 bc / 1977/1956 bc / 1419 bc* / 8th cent bc]; [Hammurabi connection with Kedorlaomer?]; Semiramis: women are known for law even nowadays; Semiramis noted for or associated with wisdom / known for intelligence, &/or "daughter of god of wisdom", "decreed Behistun inscription", Syrian letters, [Simmos/Simmas,] .... Hammurabi: law code, Shamash/Samas (god of justice/law) gives law code to Hammurabi. Semiramis: shepherd Simmos/Simmas, Semi-, Hammurabi: shepherd of his people, Shamash/Samas/Utu, Sippar, Hammurabi: after Adusin/Abilsin of Babylon, &/or after Waradsin &/or Rim-sin/Eri-aku of Larsa. Homai: successor of Ardshir. (I may be wrong about uncertain things like this sometimes, but I'm pretty sure I am not wrong about some other things like the 12 battles of Arthur, etc though.) |
Posted By: Sharrukin
Date Posted: 11-Jan-2015 at 01:10
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I will have to point out that there were other rulers who were also named Hammurabi, namely 2 (or 3) kings which ruled Yamkhad (in Syria) at their capital at Aleppo (ancient Khalap) and they were referred to as "kings".
At far as "robe" go, this was the usual garb of the people as well as the kings. See an example of a statue of Gudea for comparison. Votive statues of everyday people wore the robe. "Lawgiving" isn't evidence of anything. Prior to Hammurabi there were other "lawgivers". Ur-nammu, king of Ur (c. 2100), and Lipit-Ishtar, king of Isin (c. 1940) had "law codes" as well. Even prior them, such rulers as Uru-inim-gina, king of Lagash (c. 2350) was said to have had a law code. All of these were men. All the cumulative traditions regarding "Semiramis" are oontradictory and only slightly useful for historians. We can't even get a consistent date from them. As already been mentioned. Herodotus is our earliest known source for the Semiramis story, but Ctesias is close in time. Herodotus makes "Semiramis" as alive centuries later than "Ninos" and six generations before the conquest of Babylon by Cyrus (Semiramis "five generation" before "Nitocris" whose son "Labynetus" II was brought down by Cyrus), but Ctesias make "Semiramis" the wife of "Ninos" at the beginning of Babylonian history, hence we already have a very diverse tradition in the 5th century BC. |
Posted By: Arthur-Robin
Date Posted: 11-Jan-2015 at 15:02
welcome back Sharrukin.   I agree that Hammurabi was a king. The idea i had was that Semiramis who is legendary was not really a queen but that that is corruption from the robe of Hammurabi on law code stela (&/or lotus etc). I will have to check the other statues like you mention. I don't remember Gudea's looking much like Hammurabi's but more like "Turanian". I could be wrong about Semiramis/Hammurabi. I believe some of the dates are not literal but "code", or confounded, some do seem to coincide. I guess i will have to try decrypt them if/when time. belus 2286/2231/semiramis/assyrian 2006 - 1306/[1500?]yrs - median 700bc. (easy/simple version)* observations Babylon 2234 bc - 1903 yrs - Aristotle 331bc. kutirnahunte 2285/2220 bc - 1850/1635 yrs - ashurbanipal/650. ... - 1805 yrs - 712bc. ninus 2192 bc - 1995 yrs - philip 197bc. babylon built 2231 bc - 1002 yrs - Trojan 1229 bc. belus - 322yrs - trojan. observations began 2473/2243 bc - 720/490/[480]yrs - phoroneus/1753 bc. 72 books Bel. assyria/1220bc - 520 years" - 700bc. Semiramis 1255bc - 526yrs - Phulus/Pulu/TP 729 bc. 1965 bc/ Ninus & Semiramis 1910bc - (33 desc/1070 y - Sardanapalus/c840bc/Medes - 870yrs) 1995 yrs - V Pat c 30ad. semiramis "c800/c740bc" - "200yrs"/5gens/6gens/[170/166y?] - nitocris/[last]/labynetus*/cyrus. king built Borsippa ziggurat - 42 ages - nebuchadnezzr 2. sargon/naramsin 3750/2750bc - 3200/2200yrs - 550bc/nabonidus [labynetus]. * more confusing version belus 2286/2231/1st king assyria/built nineveh/ninus/2200/2006/semiramis/start babylonian history/ninyas - 1500 yrs (33/30 gens/decs /"for many"/1500/1400/1360/1306 yrs (20 gens for 1000 yrs (1448/1425/1428/1421) - trojan war 1184bc - 408 yrs) - 776/sardanapalus/800/700bc/median - 9 medes for 250 yrs) - astyages/cyrus/550bc. |
Posted By: Sharrukin
Date Posted: 13-Jan-2015 at 01:06
| Doubtful if its code. There is a variance of about 200 years between Eusebius and Syncellus versions of Ctesias. Hence a better explanation is poor transmission of Ctesias work. Again, the difference between Herodotus and Ctesias, is that "Semiramis" is placed by Herodotus toward the end of Assyro-Babylonian history and Ctesias places her toward the beginning. No code can explain that. |
Posted By: Centrix Vigilis
Date Posted: 13-Jan-2015 at 19:36
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error in transmission slash reporting aside....who then based on academic interp is the most reliable? whose veracity.. all being equal.. stands the test?
there is an old axiom in history that says the 'closer the observer' even he who uses suspect sources (as we might view them) to the alleged event... again all being equal.... reigns supreme. ------------- "Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence" S. T. Friedman Pilger's law: 'If it's been officially denied, then it's probably true' |
Posted By: Arthur-Robin
Date Posted: 13-Jan-2015 at 20:13
The way i read Herodotus what he says can mean that she was at beginning of Assyrian/Babylonian history too. The 5/6 generations has a number of possible interpretations. Naramsin's date is code, and the dates for Old Babylonian are either code or confounded with Babel. The orthodox date for Old Bab Dyn & Akkadian is too early. Just letting everyone know that I'm offline more now that trying to do the other things i need/want (and hoping the ENT trouble going away) |
Posted By: Arthur-Robin
Date Posted: 13-Jan-2015 at 20:20
I agree if i understand you correctly (though i guess i may perhaps not always practise it?). Orthodox academia always seem to me to say modern scholars are best and early/original/traditional sources are "suspect" (though they do have their chronologies tracing developments back through literary developments/evolution/embelishments/additions to earliest sources). I'm the opposite i prefer traditional sources over modern scholars theories. Herodotus' depends on things like what the 5 generations is, etc? |
Posted By: Sharrukin
Date Posted: 14-Jan-2015 at 02:25
I would agree. The earlier the narrative is to the event (or source of the event) the stronger the case is that it may be truer to the original source (regardless of veracity of the original source). In this case Herodotus is older than Ctesias with a narrative different than that of Ctesias.
I doubt that the word translated as "generation" can mean anything more than how we would use It in modern usage or the span of a reign. If used in as in a span of 25 years, then no more than 150 years until the end of the Babylonian kingdom. Greeks seem to use generation or the span of a reign like something like 33 years, so in this cause nothing higher than 200 years. A study of Herodotus may yield how he uses the word in other passages. Naramsin's date is code, and the dates for Old Babylonian are either code or confounded with Babel. The orthodox date for Old Bab Dyn & Akkadian is too early. Just letting everyone know that I'm offline more now that trying to do the other things i need/want (and hoping the ENT trouble going away) |
Posted By: Arthur-Robin
Date Posted: 14-Jan-2015 at 17:52
It could be so that it is same as generation elsewhere in his 9 books. But it could also be as i have wondered that it could mean other. Compare the other sources i listed 30/33 generations, 42 ages, etc. Compare 5 generations could even match 5 Shamsiadads. Compare that he says like Berosus that Assyrian power was 500 years. So i maintain that his generation / 5/6 generations could be anywhere from 200 to 500 years, which can fit anywhere between Hammurabi/Shamsiaddad 1 (true date ca 1400s) and Shamuramat/Shamsiadad 5 "ca 800 bc" (time of Jonah?). A generation can be 30 years (modern/Genesis 11), 40 years (biblical), 100/110/120 years (Abraham/Egypt/etc). |
Posted By: Centrix Vigilis
Date Posted: 14-Jan-2015 at 18:09
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I greatly regret I'm not 30 years younger. My passions now instead are not necessarily of research...but are directed elsewhere. But my congrats for the efforts and comments from all concerned; who have posted in this thread.
This is the stuff of what historians are made. Exchange and analysis. Disagreement and yet civility. Reexamination and the desire to keep looking. Amen. ------------- "Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence" S. T. Friedman Pilger's law: 'If it's been officially denied, then it's probably true' |
Posted By: Sharrukin
Date Posted: 14-Jan-2015 at 22:02
Yeah, me too. That is why I'm not here most of the time. It is probably safest to take Herodotus at his context and not try to find some secret "code" for "generation". Semiramis - 200 years tops down to the fall of Babylon or about 740 BC. This would coincide with the reign of Esarhaddon of Assyria, which in turn would be short another 70 years to the time of Shammuramat, the Assyrian queen. |
Posted By: Arthur-Robin
Date Posted: 24-Mar-2019 at 07:01
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Just looking at this again due to a recent National Geographic post/article ( https://www.nationalgeographic.com/archaeology-and-history/magazine/2017/09-10/searching-for-semiramis-assyrian-legend/ ). (Their post was yesterday in facebook but article it was linked to is apparently from 2017.) Was "queen" Semiramis the late Assyrian queen Shammuramat (wife of Shamsiadad 5 and mother of Adadnirari 3 around about same time as Jonah), or the earlier Babylonian king Hammurabi, or were there 2 different Semiramis' (one early Babylonian one, and one late Assyrian one)? The reason i still consider Hammurabi as possible candidate as opposed to Shammuramat is because there are some differences between Semiramis and Shammuramat, and some similarities between Semiramis and Hammurabi. On the other hand some things like the 42 years can match the orthodox Shammuramat candidate, and so my Hammurabi match could possibly be wrong. Then again Ctesias' king-list might point to an even earlier possible candidate of Sargon of Akkad's time or Gilgamesh's time. Let us try show the comparisons of Semiramis with Hammurabi and Shammuramat a few at a time. 1. Nation "she" is ruler of: Semiramis: Babylon/Assyria/Chaldea queen (refs include Herodotus, Josephus). Hammurabi: Babylonian king. Shammuramat: Assyrian queen not Babylon (though Assyrian empire included Babylon at the time). 2. Name (and meaning): Semiramis I/II of Babylon/Assyria: name Semiramis/Shamiram/S(h)ammu-ramat (meaning summat "dove (goddess loves her)", or "loving doves", or shem "name/renown/fame/heard" or shem "heaven", + aram/ram "exalted/high", or shemiramoth "images/things of Shemiram", or "manifestation of the exalted", or "Semiramis goddesses"?). Hammurabi of Babylon: name Hammu-rabi / Hamonurabi / Chammu-rabi / Khammu-ragas / Kimta-rapashti / 'Ammu-rapi (meaning khammu/khamu/khamala "(white) lotus/plant (of the deep)" or "a god Hammu" or 'ammu "paternal kinsman", + raba/rabi "great" or rapi "healer"? Refs Sayce, Waddell, Alford, Wiki) There are known s/sh/h, s(h)/k(h) and m/g/b interchanges within/between languages of the region. He is seen with the sun god Shamash/Samas/San(si) or Utu in his law code stele picture. His predecessor's name is Sinmuballit. Shammuramat of Assyria: name S(h)ammu-ramat. 3. Exact length of reign: Semiramis I/II of Babylon/Assyria reigned 42 years. 32nd yr of Belochus. Bel reigned 55 yrs. Hammurabi of Babylon reigned 42/43 or 55 years (refs AH Sayce, Ivar Lissner, Hoeh). Borsippa inscription says ancient king built Borsippa ziggurat 42 ages before Nebuchadnezzr 2, which may match with Hammurabi as the 1st great king of the Babylonian king list (excluding the half dozen patriarchal kings of the 1st half of the 1st dynasty). "In year 32 of Hammurabi he and his allies defeated Assyria and annexed it to his expanding realm! It was exactly 50 years between Hammurabi's victory and Assyria's return to power." (The similar-name queen Homai in Persian legend king list reigned 32 years.) Shammuramat: reigned "5 years". Husband Shamsiadad 13 yrs + son Adadnirari 28 yrs = 41 yrs. 4. Gender: Semiramis: gender woman/queen, described as "king", "wore a garment that did not show whether she was man or woman". Hammurabi: gender: was 'en' "lord" and 'lugal' "king, great-man". Wearing a toga like robe in his stele which makes him look abit female like. "darling of the sun god". Associated with the lotus which may be feminine (ref Waddell). Shammuramat of Assyria: gender female queen. ------------- NZ's mandatory fluoridation is not fair because it only forces it on the disadvantaged/some and not on the advantaged/everyone. |