Do you agree or disagree?
Printed From: History Community ~ All Empires
Category: Scholarly Pursuits
Forum Name: Intellectual discussions
Forum Discription: Discuss political and philosophical theories, religious beliefs and other academic subjects
URL: http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=34819
Printed Date: 23-Apr-2024 at 17:08
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Topic: Do you agree or disagree?
Posted By: Ollios
Subject: Do you agree or disagree?
Date Posted: 19-Jul-2014 at 02:37
I have just finished a book which was about Balkans' history.  and I want to ask you something. Do you agree or disagree about this statement ? "Muslims can kill each other also Christians can kill Muslims. It is bad thing but even Christians can kill each other too but when Muslims kill Christains, that means we are facing a massacre." It was something like that and If I don't remember wrong, it was said by Edith Durham ------------- Ellerin Kabe'si var, Benim Kabem İnsandır |
Replies:
Posted By: medenaywe
Date Posted: 19-Jul-2014 at 02:55
| Why?What does it points toward it?What is the measure of massacre index Olios?!? |
Posted By: medenaywe
Date Posted: 19-Jul-2014 at 04:11
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What about them?
http://news.yahoo.com/obama-hits-reset-button-on-wobbly-public-response-to-malaysia-airlines-shoot-down-195617147.html - http://news.yahoo.com/obama-hits-reset-button-on-wobbly-public-response-to-malaysia-airlines-shoot-down-195617147.html
http://news.yahoo.com/ukraine-says-russia-helping-destroy-092634765.html - http://news.yahoo.com/ukraine-says-russia-helping-destroy-092634765.html
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Posted By: Ollios
Date Posted: 19-Jul-2014 at 12:18
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I don't think that I understood relation of these and my point. My point is such as this "Some of the first Greek actions were taken against unarmed Ottoman settlements, with about 40% of Turkish and Albanian Muslim residents of the Peloponnese killed outright, and the rest fleeing the area or being deported" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ottoman_Greece - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ottoman_Greece Do you guys know something about Turk Genocide in Peloponnese? I don't think so. The idea is about ignoring Muslim casualties during the last period of Ottoman Empire and focusing on Christian brotherhood casualities Actually I hate the word genocide, that time was like ethnic civil war even Bulgarian and Greeks killed or try to assimilated each other ------------- Ellerin Kabe'si var, Benim Kabem İnsandır |
Posted By: Mountain Man
Date Posted: 19-Jul-2014 at 13:23
First, you need to post the exact quote; then, perhaps, others can comment. ------------- Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? |
Posted By: Don Quixote
Date Posted: 19-Jul-2014 at 23:57
Well, Edith Durham lived 1863-1944, about half a century before the modern cultural sensibilities, if she thought so we have to allow her margin for the prejudices of the time. he wasn't even a historian, btw, and the idea of genocide came probably after her time, so I don't think we can't hold her accountable for supposedly ignoring genocide against Muslims. I will ask you to post the exact quote, with the page, year of publication, and a publisher. If you read the book in Turkish, you have to find an authorized edition in English, because during a translation the meaning of the phrase may have been changed in one or another direction. If the book was written by a Turkish writer and is not translated in English, then you have to find the book by Durham from which the said quote is found /it should be in the "Literature" section on the back of the book/, find an English edition of it, and quote it from there, with page, year and publisher. ------------- |
Posted By: Don Quixote
Date Posted: 20-Jul-2014 at 00:15
Anyway, genocides are not supposed to happen, no matter against who, and cannot be justified, nor they can be denied. I would think Turkey has to first admit the genocide it itself committed, before insisting that other countries have to admit any genocide against Turks. ------------- |
Posted By: Ollios
Date Posted: 20-Jul-2014 at 00:26
No, actually she was in front of her age, she was criticize the West
But you are true guys, a translator have already translated her words to Turkish and now I am trying translate them to in English with awful English  here is the engish version, "When a Muslim kills a Muslim it does not count. When a Christian kills a Muslim it is a righteous act; when a Chrisitan kills a Christian it is an error of judgement better not talked about; it is only when a Muslim kills a Christian that we arrive at full-blown atrocity " http://books.google.com.tr/books?id=3PsLXeDflfMC&pg=PA387&dq=balkans+mark+mazower+edith+durham&hl=tr&sa=X&ei=DUHLU4qNKsG9ygPMioKgAw&ved=0CBkQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=balkans%20mark%20mazower%20edith%20durham&f=false - http://books.google.com.tr/books?id=3PsLXeDflfMC&pg=PA387&dq=balkans+%22mark+mazower%22+edith+durham&hl=tr&sa=X&ei=DUHLU4qNKsG9ygPMioKgAw&ved=0CBkQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=balkans%20%22mark%20mazower%22%20edith%20durham&f=false ------------- Ellerin Kabe'si var, Benim Kabem İnsandır |
Posted By: Ollios
Date Posted: 20-Jul-2014 at 00:48
The position of Israel is clear. Commemoration of these thinks, don't make the country more respectful against the human right. Actually it is turning a national masturbation tool and of course there are too much just romantic national crabs in these perspectives. Example; In those perspective one side is always rightful but helpless, other side is true shape of pure evil such as this photo. Barbaric, bad savageries were sent to more West by good modern Americans  ------------- Ellerin Kabe'si var, Benim Kabem İnsandır |
Posted By: red clay
Date Posted: 20-Jul-2014 at 01:02
Well stated DQ. Cultural changes are, interestingly enough, greater after a war. WWI triggered cultural spasms in the US.
------------- "Arguing with someone who hates you or your ideas, is like playing chess with a pigeon. No matter what move you make, your opponent will walk all over the board and scramble the pieces". Unknown. |
Posted By: Mountain Man
Date Posted: 20-Jul-2014 at 11:50
In the context of what you have posted and said about her this is only her viewpoint and no one else's, not substantiated in any fashion. Furthermore, it appears to be her opinion on what the Western attitude is, and her opinion is, by your own statements, entirely biased to begin with. The Muslim attitudes of the times were, for example, that killing a Christian was a holy act, and that being killed by a Christian was the atrocity. Therefore, I totally disagree with the author's viewpoint as you have presented it. ------------- Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? |
Posted By: Centrix Vigilis
Date Posted: 20-Jul-2014 at 13:51
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nothing to worry about. she was nothing more than an 19th ce. example of a self proclaimed; and then recognized champion of a select group, in this case Albanians, at odds with their government ie. anti serbian.
and that should sound familiar. we still got them running around today in one form or another. now everyone take a pain pill and be friends. ------------- "Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence" S. T. Friedman Pilger's law: 'If it's been officially denied, then it's probably true' |
Posted By: TheAlaniDragonRising
Date Posted: 20-Jul-2014 at 22:09
A very insightful observation by Edith Durham, Ollios, and delivered with the wit, and sarcasm famed by the likes of the eighteenth century French philosopher, writer, and historian, Voltaire. It was a critique of western attitudes towards the Balkans, nothing more, nothing less. This was no statement to be attacked as a commentary by Edith Durham on the peoples of the Balkans, for this is not what it is. It is also not something to be explained away by suggesting her words are from a bygone era, as it could be argued she was before her time with such a modern sensibilities. ------------- What a handsome figure of a dragon. No wonder I fall madly in love with the Alani Dragon now, the avatar, it's a gorgeous dragon picture. |
Posted By: Mountain Man
Date Posted: 22-Jul-2014 at 09:32
And yet she obviously knew nothing whatsoever about the Muslim attitude towards the rest of the world. I see no "insight" in that, merely a profound ignorance masquerading as such. "Modern sensibilities"? No...just another apologist. More like Obama and Kerry than Voltaire. ------------- Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? |
Posted By: TheAlaniDragonRising
Date Posted: 22-Jul-2014 at 10:33
------------- What a handsome figure of a dragon. No wonder I fall madly in love with the Alani Dragon now, the avatar, it's a gorgeous dragon picture. |
Posted By: Centrix Vigilis
Date Posted: 22-Jul-2014 at 14:36
Interesting rejoinder there Alani. otoh. evidence under the law, as defined, is not necessarily required of opinions in of a general nature. And when it is, it then must meet the parameters and criterion set forth in statute code. in this case: Rule 702. Testimony by Expert Witnesses or Rule 701. Opinion Testimony by Lay Witnesses In either case MM's comments can be confirmed as being in compliance by either. See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_evidence http://www.law.cornell.edu/rules/fre/rule_701 http://www.law.cornell.edu/rules/fre/rule_702 ------------- "Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence" S. T. Friedman Pilger's law: 'If it's been officially denied, then it's probably true' |
Posted By: TheAlaniDragonRising
Date Posted: 22-Jul-2014 at 18:41
Btw, CV, best if you read through those links again, as at least one of the pretty well undermines what you were trying to achieve anyhow. ------------- What a handsome figure of a dragon. No wonder I fall madly in love with the Alani Dragon now, the avatar, it's a gorgeous dragon picture. |
Posted By: Centrix Vigilis
Date Posted: 22-Jul-2014 at 18:51
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Nonsense Alani old son...conjecture is clearly defined as an unproven proposition. It is clear that he is neither making one in the scientific for or other. But indeed rendering an opinion..in the form of a declaratory statement.
Hence Rule 701 and or 02 applies which validates the credibility of the position. Now I'm overdue for meds and beds. I must adieu.  ------------- "Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence" S. T. Friedman Pilger's law: 'If it's been officially denied, then it's probably true' |
Posted By: TheAlaniDragonRising
Date Posted: 22-Jul-2014 at 19:54
Indeed, CV, and how could it be anything but conjecture. What do we have that says otherwise? What's more, CV, as someone who has shown support for MM in this matter, had there been anything whatsoever on this thread that could have cleared up what the opinion was specifically about, you would have been all over it like a rash, to back it as the type of opinion you were trying to say that it was, but you haven't. Clearly you've not seen any, hence the only conclusion open to us, it is conjecture. Hope your rest was peaceful. ------------- What a handsome figure of a dragon. No wonder I fall madly in love with the Alani Dragon now, the avatar, it's a gorgeous dragon picture. |
Posted By: Centrix Vigilis
Date Posted: 23-Jul-2014 at 14:13
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No it's note. But we will call it a draw and let him opine if he feels a further need.
Best on ya. ------------- "Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence" S. T. Friedman Pilger's law: 'If it's been officially denied, then it's probably true' |
Posted By: TheAlaniDragonRising
Date Posted: 23-Jul-2014 at 15:04
Then in my opinion, CV, how could I disagree with your assessment that there might be more MM may bring to what he commented on to clarify what he has said. Thank you for your input, CV.
------------- What a handsome figure of a dragon. No wonder I fall madly in love with the Alani Dragon now, the avatar, it's a gorgeous dragon picture. |
Posted By: Mountain Man
Date Posted: 24-Jul-2014 at 18:39
|
As you should be aware, the Mulsim attitude towards the world is that there is no room for non-believers, and that a holy duty exists to convert all such non-believers by the sword. If in doubt, I invite you to read the Koran yourself. I have. The very existent of that intolerant belief system renders the author's comment not only incorrect, but ludicrous. She merely attributes the Muslim attitude towards the world to the Westerners and then shines her personal spotlight on it as though she has uncovered some sort of cultural epiphany previously unknown. The reality is that pretty much the whole world holds that attitude towards outsiders. The Amero-Europeans held it towards the Amerind natives. The Britihs held it against every single nation they colonized ("Bloody Wogs"...remember?) The South American cultures still hold it against everyone else to this day. The Serbs, Bosnians, Turks and Armenians have held it against each other for a couple of thousands of years. The Germans held it against the whole world, as do the Japanese and Chinese, and virtually everybody to this day still holds it against the Jews, especially the Middle Eastern Muslims. The Palestinian attitude towards killing Isrealis is a pure mirror image of the author's alleged premise, and shows just how simplistic her claims actually are. According to one of Murphy's Golden rules, If everybody can't be right, then everybody is wrong...and so is she. ------------- Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? |
Posted By: TheAlaniDragonRising
Date Posted: 24-Jul-2014 at 22:19
Mountain Man, is this
supposed to be an attempt at answering my query over you calling Edith Durham
an apologist? Because if so, I’m at a total loss as to where this explanation
is meant to be! If indeed you have the evidence to back it up as an explanation.
You talk about the author’s
comment not only being incorrect, but also being ludicrous, but why? Don’t you say
those are the kinds of attitudes everyone has towards outsiders? If that is the
case, are you suggesting everyone’s attitude towards outsiders is both
incorrect, and ludicrous? But wait, Mountain Man, could it not be said that
Edith Durham was pointing out the incorrect and ludicrous manner those of the
Balkans are viewed by westerners (outsiders to the Balkans) the very point you
were just highlighting? Yes, Mountain Man, indeed it is that way around, and
not as you put it “the Muslim attitude towards the world to the westerners”.
Epiphany anyone! And finally, Mountain Man,
you’ve misquoted your Murphy’s bit of fallacious logic. You did know that even
the correct quote also contained fallacious logic too, right? Kind of makes the
little bit you added onto the end somewhat questionable. Oh the quote, ”In
nature, nothing is ever right. Therefore, if everything is going right…something
is wrong.” ------------- What a handsome figure of a dragon. No wonder I fall madly in love with the Alani Dragon now, the avatar, it's a gorgeous dragon picture. |