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The Homosexual Roots of the Nazis

Printed From: History Community ~ All Empires
Category: Regional History or Period History
Forum Name: Modern History
Forum Discription: World History from 1918 to the 21st century.
URL: http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=3368
Printed Date: 08-Jun-2024 at 19:40
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Topic: The Homosexual Roots of the Nazis
Posted By: Guests
Subject: The Homosexual Roots of the Nazis
Date Posted: 12-May-2005 at 14:22

While Adolf Hitler is today recognized as the central figure of Nazism, he was a less important player when the Nazi ideology was first composed.

The first leader was Ernst Roehm, who met Hitler at a meeting of a socialist terrorist group called the Iron Fist and "saw in Hitler the demagogue he required to mobilize mass support for his secret army" (Hohne:20). With Roehm's backing, Hitler became the first president of the party in 1921 and changed its name to the National Socialist German Worker's Party. Soon after, the Sturmabteilung (Storm Troopers) or the SA became its military arm. The SA was created by Gerhard Rossbach. Both Roehm and Rossbach were homosexuals.

Roehm "projected a social order in which homosexuality would be regarded as a human behavior pattern of high repute...he flaunted his homosexuality in public and insisted that his cronies do the same. What was needed, Roehm believed, was a proud and arrogant lot who could brawl, carouse, smash windows, kill and slaughter for the hell of it. Straights, in his eyes, were not as adept in such behavior as practicing homosexuals" (Snyder:55).

Rossbach wasn't just SA's father, he also built the largest post-war youth organization in Germany, named the Schilljugend (Schill Youth) in honor of a famous Prussian soldier. "Both Rossbach's Storm Troopers and the Schilljugend "were notorious for wearing brown shirts which had been prepared for German colonial troops, acquired from the old Imperial army stores" (Koehl:19). Rossbach was "the most important single contributor of the pre-Hitler youth movement" (Waite,1969:210). Rossbach's adjutant was Edmund Heines, noted for his ability to procure boys for sexual orgies.

One man who had a big influence on Hitler was Jorg Lanz Von Liebenfels. In 1958, Austrian psychologist Wilhelm Daim published Der Mann der Hitler die Ideen gab ("The Man Who Gave Hitler His Ideas") in which he called Lanz the true "father" of National Socialism. Lanz was a former Cistercian monk who had been excommunicated for homosexuality (Sklar:19).

In February of 1933, Hitler banned pornography, homosexual bars and bathhouses, and groups which promoted "gay rights" (Plant:50). Ostensibly, this decree was a blanket condemnation of all homosexual activity in Germany, but in practice it served as just another means to find and destroy anti-Nazi groups and individuals. "Hitler," admit Oosterhuis and Kennedy, "employed the charge of homosexuality primarily as a means to eliminate political opponents, both inside his party and out" (Oosterhuis and Kennedy: 248). Although Nazi rhetoric listed homosexuals among the unfit, the Nazis never targeted homosexuals for destruction. To the contrary, unless the homosexual in question was Jewish, or a political enemy, the Nazi organization was often protective of homosexuals.

Roehm and Rudolf Hess, two of Hitler's closest friends were not the only homosexuals on key positions in the Nazi party. Reinhard Heydrich, mastermind of the first pogrom, Kristallnacht, and of the death camps, and Walter Funk, Reich Minister of Economics (and Hitler's personal financial advisor) were also homosexuals. "The first years of terrorism against the Jews were carried out by the homosexuals of the SA. The first concentration camp, as well as the system for training its brutal guards, was the work of Ernst Roehm. The first pogrom, Kristallnacht, was orchestrated in 1938 by the homosexual Reinhard Heydrich." (Robinson:25).

On June 28, 1934 on 'The Night of the Long Knives" Ernst Roehm was killed. Hitler claimed it was because Roehm was a homosexual but this Hitler had known and accepted for 15 years. "Hitler eliminated his closest friend Roehm and certain SA leaders as potential rivals. The strictly political motivation of this ruthless power play was initially too obvious to be entirely denied, but later it was conveniently obscured by charges of homosexual depravity" (Haberle:369f). Otto Strasser, in his book, The German St. Bartholemew's Night (which has not been published in English), mentions sixteen of these highly placed homosexualist officials who survived the massacres of June 30 and retained their posts (Igra:82).

Some homosexuals were indeed interned in Nazi work camps. These were followers to a "gay activist" called Magnus Hirschfield, while the homosexuals on key positions among the Nazis were followers to Adolf Brand, another "gay activist". Brand's followers didn't accept the followers of Hirschfield.

Some of the guards and administrators responsible for the infamous concentration camp atrocities were homosexuals themselves, e.g. Max Bielas. "Max Bielas had a harem of little Jewish boys. He liked them young, no older than seventeen. He had a kind of parody of the shepherds of Arcadia, their role was to take care of the camp flock of geese. They were dressed like little princes...Bielas had a little barracks built for them that looked like a doll's house...Bielas sought in Treblinka only the satisfaction of his homosexual instincts" (Steiner:117f).

I think this homosexual dimension of the Nazi history is still being overlooked by a lot of people.

 

 




 




Replies:
Posted By: Komnenos
Date Posted: 13-May-2005 at 04:17
Originally posted by Julia


I think this homosexual dimension of the Nazi history is still being overlooked by a lot of people.


Even if all the facts stated above were right, and it is notoriously difficult to establish the truth about rumours on homosexuality, I fail to see what the argument is.
What you have established is, that the Nazis had a number of homosexuals in their midst, which is no great surprise, as a certain percentage of the entire population is homosexual, and this is reflected in all sectors and groups of society.
The Catholic Church has its homosexuals, the Communist Party has, my local football club and so has the association of stamp collectors.
Surely not all of this groups' aims or politics are informed by homosexuality.
Your post might contain a slightly interesting, but also equally insignificant footnote of history, but not more.
The barbarous ideology of Nazism has its roots, anti-semitism, Italian fascism, Pan-Germanism, pseudo Nordic mythology and pseudo scientific anthropology and the like, but homosexuality is certainly not amongst them.


Originally posted by Julia


Although Nazi rhetoric listed homosexuals among the unfit, the Nazis never targeted homosexuals for destruction. To the contrary, unless the homosexual in question was Jewish, or a political enemy, the Nazi organization was often protective of homosexuals.....Some homosexuals were indeed interned in Nazi work camps


Considering that by conservative estimates about 10.000 homosexuals were killed in KZs, this is nothing more than an insult to these victims of Nazism.

In any case, I fail to understand your argument, at it's best its unimportant and at its worst it could reflect a homophobic view on history.

There is a huge number of actual and alledged Gays in history, Alexander, Marcus Aurelius, Richard the Lionheart, Mehmet II and so on , endlessly, and surely nobody wants to explain the 3rd Crusade or the conquest of Constantinople with a homosexual conspiracy.

So, if I were you, I wouldn't worry too much about Gay Nazis. To understand Nazism, you might want to analyse its far more significant roots.


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Posted By: Cywr
Date Posted: 13-May-2005 at 09:59
Nazis also used homosexuals as slave labour and as lab rats.
Homosexuals were fleeing Nazi Germany before WWII broke out allready, many sought refuge in the Netherlands, where after the invasion, they were rounded up and shiped back to Germany. There is a memorial in Amsterdam to commemorate them.

Homosexuals were are target of the Nazis soley for being homosexual, they didn't all get the gas treatment, but they weren't exactly stuck in holiday camps either.


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Arrrgh!!"


Posted By: TheOrcRemix
Date Posted: 14-May-2005 at 00:52

So, if I were you, I wouldn't worry too much about Gay Nazis. To understand Nazism, you might want to analyse its far more significant roots.

Which is?



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True peace is not the absence of tension, but the presence of justice.
Sir Francis Drake is the REAL Pirate of the Caribbean


Posted By: Cassivellaunus
Date Posted: 14-May-2005 at 01:17
Originally posted by TheOrcRemix

So, if I were you, I wouldn't worry too much about Gay Nazis. To understand Nazism, you might want to analyse its far more significant roots.

Which is?

Are you joking? Here are a select few:

-Myth of Lost Atlantis
-Nordic mythology
-Superiority of the Aryan race
-Hatred of Roman Catholicism
-Theory of Evolution
-Anti-Semitism
-Racial purity
-World Domination

Not necessarily in that order...

Homosexuality did not appear to be very high on the Nazi agenda.



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"Why do you cower in your trenches, men? They couldn't hit an elephant at this distance!"
- Last words of General John Sedgewick


Posted By: Komnenos
Date Posted: 14-May-2005 at 06:14
Originally posted by Cassivellaunus

Originally posted by TheOrcRemix

So, if I were you, I wouldn't worry too much about Gay Nazis. To understand Nazism, you might want to analyse its far more significant roots.

Which is?


Are you joking? Here are a select few


-Myth of Lost Atlantis-Nordic mythology-Superiority of the Aryan race-Hatred of Roman Catholicism-Theory of Evolution-Anti-Semitism-Racial purity-World Domination


Not necessarily in that order...


Homosexuality did not appear to be very high on the Nazi agenda.




Silly question, good answer!

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Posted By: Tobodai
Date Posted: 14-May-2005 at 15:18
well perhaps I should write an article about the heterosexual roots of Stalinism, because clearly mass murder can all be summed up in sexuality.

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"the people are nothing but a great beast...
I have learned to hold popular opinion of no value."
-Alexander Hamilton


Posted By: Paul
Date Posted: 14-May-2005 at 16:06

Most of the great nineteenth century anarchists, Bakunin and friends were impotent and there wasn't an anarchist genocide, not even in Spain.

A pattern emerges.



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Light blue touch paper and stand well back

http://www.maquahuitl.co.uk - http://www.maquahuitl.co.uk

http://www.toltecitztli.co.uk - http://www.toltecitztli.co.uk


Posted By: Komnenos
Date Posted: 14-May-2005 at 17:08
I've actually heard the rumour that Hitler was a trans-sexual and was undergoing a sex change during the war.
As medical techniques weren't that far developed in the 30s and 40s, the operation had be done in stages and all the doctors managed was to remove one ball, before the Russians came.
Is there any relationship between trans-sexuality and Nazism? I think we should be told.

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Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 16-May-2005 at 13:41

Originally posted by Komnenos


In any case, I fail to understand your argument, at it's best its unimportant and at its worst it could reflect a homophobic view on history.

I think it's worth mentioning because the gay movement presents the gays solely as vicitms of the Nazis - which of course is true as far as the followers of Hirschfield is concerned - but they were also the ideological fathers of the National Socialism in Germany. And the link between the Nazis and the gay movement in Germany still excists. A leader of the neo-Nazis, Michael Kuhnen, an openly gay man who died of AIDS a couple of years ago, wrote a paper about the link between homosexuality and fascism.

 



Posted By: Cywr
Date Posted: 16-May-2005 at 15:53
I suppose Mussolini and Franko, the real architects of Facism, were gay too.

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Arrrgh!!"


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 16-May-2005 at 17:31
And I don't think a homosexual nazi is a very objective source when it comes to homosexuality and nazism. (apart from that his movement split after it became public he was homosexual)


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Posted By: Komnenos
Date Posted: 17-May-2005 at 08:40
Originally posted by Julia

I think it's worth mentioning because the gay movement presents the gays solely as vicitms of the Nazis - which of course is true as far as the followers of Hirschfield is concerned - but they were also the ideological fathers of the National Socialism in Germany. And the link between the Nazis and the gay movement in Germany still excists. A leader of the neo-Nazis, Michael Kuhnen, an openly gay man who died of AIDS a couple of years ago, wrote a paper about the link between homosexuality and fascism.



You still have failed to explain, how the coincidental factor of some Nazis being homosexual, in any way influenced or informed Nazi ideology or politics.

About 3-5% of the entire population are male homosexuals, so if you regard the membership of the NSDAP in the early twenties as probably about 2000, it would have had 60-100 gays, in 1933 the membership was 2.5 Million and possibly 75.000-125.000 gay members, or in 1945 with 8.5 Million members and possibly 255.000-425.000 gay members.

I rest my case!

Originally posted by julia


....but they were also the ideological fathers of the National Socialism in Germany. And the link between the Nazis and the gay movement in Germany still excists. A leader of the neo-Nazis, Michael Kuhnen, an openly gay man who died of AIDS a couple of years ago, wrote a paper about the link between homosexuality and fascism.


Michael Kuehnen was not openly gay until his homosexuality became public, rather agianst his will, in the mid 80s.
He wrote his piece "Homosexuality and National-Socialismus" after he was outed and in order to justify his own sexuality. The whole affair did not so much split the Neo-Nazi Scene, that was traditionally violently Anti-Gay, but isolated M.K. from the other morons.
"Gay-bashing" was and still is a favourite past time of the Neo-Nazi and Skinhead scene in Germany.





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Posted By: hugoestr
Date Posted: 17-May-2005 at 11:22
Originally posted by Julia

Originally posted by Komnenos

In any case, I fail to understand your argument, at it's best its unimportant and at its worst it could reflect a homophobic view on history.


I think it's worth mentioning because the gay movement presents the gays solely as vicitms of the Nazis - which of course is true as far as the followers of Hirschfield is concerned - but they were also the ideological fathers of the National Socialism in Germany. And the link between the Nazis and the gay movement in Germany still excists. A leader of the neo-Nazis, Michael Kuhnen, an openly gay man who died of AIDS a couple of years ago, wrote a paper about the link between homosexuality and fascism.

<FONT face="Times New Roman">



So the whole point of your post is to make an anti-gay statement?

The true lesson from your post is that society's condemnation of homosexuality puts a strong psychic pressure on closeted gay man. Their guilt led them to embrace an extremist conservative ideology that condemned their sexual interests.

This is not exclusive of the Nazi party. Ashamed closeted gays rush to right wing movements. Many become leading speakers against homosexuals. It is their attempt to will or pray themselves out of their “sin.”

Look at the Catholic Church, Evangelical churches, and in the Republican Party and the military of the U.S.. They are filled with these closet cases. And just like their Nazi counterparts, many of these people engage in homosexual sex throughout their lives.

Unless you are ready to say that the homosexual movement has played a role into Catholicism, evangelical Christianity, the Republican Party, and the U.S. military, I can’t see how your argument can stand.


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Posted By: eaglecap
Date Posted: 27-May-2005 at 01:17
Maybe he was so I went back and time and took this pic!!



he could have been a cross dresser as well!!







Maybe Hitler has something in common with another dictator- hmmmmm!





Posted By: Komnenos
Date Posted: 27-May-2005 at 03:15
Sorry, eaglecap, I didn't find that picture with Saddam hilarious when I first saw it, and with time it has become even more unfunny.
It' sad and pathetic that a Western newspaper publishes a photo like this, and the people who find that amusing might be even sadder.
You can only claim moral superiority over a tyrant like Saddam, when you actually act that superiority out. Depicting a person, any person, against his will in his underwear, is degrading and humiliating for this person and certainly not a sign of moral superiority.
I think especially the American government has a lesson to learn here!

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Posted By: Cywr
Date Posted: 28-May-2005 at 00:07
Its the Sun, this is expected from them.
As for moral superiority, the folks at the Sun may be a bunch of infantile sensationalist morons, but they havn't gassed anyone yet.

I think especially the American government has a lesson to learn here!


And what would that be? That t should seek to control the media of foreign countries?
The Prison where Saddam is held is gaurded by Iraqis, presumably it was one of them who accepted money for the pics, from a Newspaper based outside of the US?
What exactly is the US supposed to do about this, save being even more of an international asshole?


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Arrrgh!!"


Posted By: Komnenos
Date Posted: 29-May-2005 at 08:06
Originally posted by Cywr


And what would that be? That t should seek to control the media of foreign countries?
The Prison where Saddam is held is gaurded by Iraqis, presumably it was
one of them who accepted money for the pics, from a Newspaper based
outside of the US?
What exactly is the US supposed to do about this, save being even more of an international asshole?



What I kind of meant was that recent Saddam's exposure was symptomatic of the way the Americans conducted themselves in the post-invasion Iraq.
I have no idea if the pictures were leaked with or without toleration or collaboration of the occupying forces, but that doesn't really matter. Just that any American found it nesserary to shoot a picture of Saddam like that, really is enough.
And that in combination with the humiliating pictures after his arrest, and Abu Ghraib prison and all that, surely doesn't convince anybody in the Iraq that the Americans of the higher moral values of "Freedom and Democracy".


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Posted By: cattus
Date Posted: 29-May-2005 at 13:40
Originally posted by Cywr


Its the Sun, this is expected from them.

As for moral superiority, the folks at the Sun may be a bunch of
infantile sensationalist morons, but they havn't gassed anyone yet.

I think especially the American government has a lesson to learn here!


And what would that be? That t should seek to control the media of foreign countries?
The Prison where Saddam is held is gaurded by Iraqis, presumably it was
one of them who accepted money for the pics, from a Newspaper based
outside of the US?
What exactly is the US supposed to do about this, save being even more of an international asshole?


Blue-Ribbon post.



Komnenos, association of stamp collectors?    

Julia, though I dont tie the Nazi's actions to homosexuality at all, I personally find the strength in its roots interesting.

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Posted By: Tobodai
Date Posted: 29-May-2005 at 22:40
Maybe the nazis were gay, but mnore of the insecure closeted gay and less of the open gay.  I ve always seen a connection between repressed urges (like that held by mr santorum in all liklihood) and oppression of others.  After all someone with a swastika armband must have thought all those finely chistled young men marching in formation was worth something.

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"the people are nothing but a great beast...
I have learned to hold popular opinion of no value."
-Alexander Hamilton


Posted By: Cywr
Date Posted: 30-May-2005 at 04:27
Just that any American found it nesserary to shoot a picture of Saddam like that, really is enough.


How do you know it was a yank?


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Arrrgh!!"


Posted By: Komnenos
Date Posted: 15-Jun-2005 at 19:04
Nevermind the homosexual roots of the Nazis, what about the Stalinists!
Here we have much better proof:




Lenny Breshnev and his Honny!

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Posted By: TheDiplomat
Date Posted: 01-Jul-2005 at 03:54

Just after The Nazis came to power,they attacked a school of sexual science.

Hitler showed no interest in women during his days in Vienna..But,let us admit the fact that women did adore Hitler when he was der Führer.



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ARDA:The best Turkish diplomat ever!



Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 26-Jul-2005 at 13:00

Haven't been here for a long time now but the thread seems to have gone off topic. But here are some comments:

 

Originally posted by Komnenos


You still have failed to explain, how the coincidental factor of some Nazis being homosexual, in any way influenced or informed Nazi ideology or politics. 

Well, they invented the Nazi ideology, I think that can be called having an influence?

 

Originally posted by hugoestr

So the whole point of your post is to make an anti-gay statement? 

My point with mentioning this is that I find it a bit humorous that certain historians put so much effort in "proving" that people who lived thousends of years ago were homosexuals but fail to mention this. Although this is so much easier to find and prove since these people, in opposition to the ancient greeks and romans, actually knew what the word homosexual meant and also called themselves by that name.

 



Posted By: gcle2003
Date Posted: 26-Jul-2005 at 13:11
Originally posted by Cassivellaunus

Originally posted by TheOrcRemix

So, if I were you, I wouldn't worry too much about Gay Nazis. To understand Nazism, you might want to analyse its far more significant roots.

Which is?

Are you joking? Here are a select few:

-Myth of Lost Atlantis
-Nordic mythology
-Superiority of the Aryan race
-Hatred of Roman Catholicism
-Theory of Evolution
-Anti-Semitism
-Racial purity
-World Domination

Not necessarily in that order...

Homosexuality did not appear to be very high on the Nazi agenda.

Not sure what you mean by 'Theory of Evolution' here. Whose theory of evolution?

 

 



Posted By: gcle2003
Date Posted: 26-Jul-2005 at 13:12

Originally posted by Komnenos

I've actually heard the rumour that Hitler was a trans-sexual and was undergoing a sex change during the war.
As medical techniques weren't that far developed in the 30s and 40s, the operation had be done in stages and all the doctors managed was to remove one ball, before the Russians came.
Is there any relationship between trans-sexuality and Nazism? I think we should be told.

"And Goebbels

Had no balls

At all"

to the tune of ...?



Posted By: Komnenos
Date Posted: 26-Jul-2005 at 18:42
Originally posted by gcle2003

"And Goebbels


Had no balls


At all"


to the tune of ...?



http://www.universalteacher.org.uk/ww2/sounds/cl_bogey.mid - It's the Colonel Bogey March

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Posted By: Komnenos
Date Posted: 26-Jul-2005 at 18:56
Originally posted by gcle2003


Not sure what you mean by 'Theory of Evolution' here. Whose theory of evolution?




I'm pretty sure he was refering to "Social-Darwinism" here, a tendency that tried to apply the Darwinist theories of the evolution of species onto human social organisations and processes, and which was adopted by the Nazis into their absurd beliefs.
One conclusion the Nazis drew from their race theories was, that the Aryan=Germanic master race was the preferred human race by evolution, destined to supersede all other races, and therefore had "das Recht des Staerkeren" (the right of the stronger) to speed the evolutionary process up by exterminating all minor races.
The best proof that all this was complete bollocks were the Nazis themselves, Hitler, Goebbels and Goering in particular.

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Posted By: Menippos
Date Posted: 26-Jul-2005 at 21:05
Originally posted by Julia

Haven't been here for a long time now but the thread seems to have gone off topic. But here are some comments:

 

Originally posted by Komnenos


You still have failed to explain, how the coincidental factor of some Nazis being homosexual, in any way influenced or informed Nazi ideology or politics. 

Well, they invented the Nazi ideology, I think that can be called having an influence?


So, you are telling us that gays invented the Nazi ideology? Hmmm, I have heard many things, but this...

Originally posted by Julia


Originally posted by hugoestr

So the whole point of your post is to make an anti-gay statement? 

My point with mentioning this is that I find it a bit humorous that certain historians put so much effort in "proving" that people who lived thousends of years ago were homosexuals but fail to mention this. Although this is so much easier to find and prove since these people, in opposition to the ancient greeks and romans, actually knew what the word homosexual meant and also called themselves by that name.


You compare different peoples at different times with different moralities, different religions, different cultures, different habits and different takes on the world around them altogehter.
I think I know where you are coming from, but it is the wrong way to go about it.



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CARRY NOTHING


Posted By: vagabond
Date Posted: 07-Aug-2005 at 05:41

http://www.universalteacher.org.uk/ww2/sounds/cl_bogey.mid - It's the Colonel Bogey March
 

Good call - I was gonna say the whistling theme song from "Bridge over the River Kwai" - but I doubt I could have put a name to it.  But I know the words.  The lyrics - as sung by (speaking of Gay issues) the Divine Miss M - can be found here  http://www.bettelyrics.com/lyrics/hhoobb.htm - http://www.bettelyrics.com/lyrics/hhoobb.htm  

Having read the discssion - I don't see how A relates to B.  That Oscar Wilde was gay may have had an influence on his work.  Same has been said for Tschaikovsky, and many other figures, both artistic and historical, some of whom were probably actually gay (or bi, or... )  As they did not leave behind any documentation about the impact of this on their work makes it a hard argument even with individuals.  Others would argue that sexuality and talent have no bearing on each other.  I believe that the proportion of untalented gay artists is the same as the proportion of untalented straight artists.  

Even this loose logic - however - falls completely to pieces when it involves numbers of people and long periods of time.  The fact that the founders were or were not Gay did not impact the progression of the Nazi movement.  The leaders of the movement at various points may have been gay - but I do not see how it influenced the development of the Nazi movement in any way - there are too many other (economic, socio-political ... ) more important influences. 



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In the time of your life, live - so that in that wonderous time you shall not add to the misery and sorrow of the world, but shall smile to the infinite delight and mystery of it. (Saroyan)



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