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Persian art painting proves Turks were Mongoloid

Printed From: History Community ~ All Empires
Category: Regional History or Period History
Forum Name: Steppe Nomads and Central Asia
Forum Discription: Nomads such as the Scythians, Huns, Turks & Mongols, and kingdoms of Central Asia
URL: http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=33405
Printed Date: 28-Mar-2024 at 05:52
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Topic: Persian art painting proves Turks were Mongoloid
Posted By: MrButlerKing
Subject: Persian art painting proves Turks were Mongoloid
Date Posted: 10-Mar-2013 at 12:22
Okay..... I always keep seeing a difference of painting between Turks and Arabs, tell me why there is a huge difference in eye shape, size and face drawing?  Surely if Turks were Caucasoid like some Turkish people have claimed than why did they drew them so differently from the Arabs.

Please explain this to me.

Okay sure in Painting of Arabs look you can argue it has some Mongoloid influence like the big slanted eyes



by Rashid al-Din, published in Tabriz, Persia, 1307 A.D.

But yet when they draw Turks they always looks so Mongoloid with very small slanted eyes.

English: Babur and Humayun Persian style painting in 1650

Garden Scene, Aq Quyunlu period (1396–1508), ca. 1430
Iran, possibly Tabriz Opaque watercolor and gold on undyed silk




Replies:
Posted By: TITAN_
Date Posted: 10-Mar-2013 at 16:33
It is a fact that the motherland of the Turkish tribes is Central Asia (Mongolian steppes). The origins of the Turkish languages are right there...

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αἰὲν ἀριστεύειν
Een aristevin
“Ever to Excel“
From Homer's Iliad (8th century BC).
Motto of the University of St Andrews (founded 1410), the Edinburgh Academy (founded 1824) and others.


Posted By: Cyrus Shahmiri
Date Posted: 11-Mar-2013 at 00:07

The fact is that there was a strong Chinese influence on the Persian miniature after the Mongol conquests, as you can see in the eblow pic, even the red-haired Persian hero Rostam looks Mongoloid:



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Posted By: Ollios
Date Posted: 11-Mar-2013 at 01:50
Originally posted by MrButlerKing

Okay..... I always keep seeing a difference of painting between Turks and Arabs, tell me why there is a huge difference in eye shape, size and face drawing?


First of all, let's go to alternative world. In this world, there is still a tribe/ clan as Slav. However, there is no word such as Russian or Russia. These people call themselves as Slav and the name of their country something like that Slavia/Slavistan. So What do you want to mean with Slav. Slav=Russian or Slav=Russian+Bulgars+Serbs+... It is same thing for the word "Turk"

Moors/Arabs and Turks



Originally posted by MrButlerKing


 Surely if Turks were Caucasoid like some Turkish people have claimed than why did they drew them so differently from the Arabs.


Do you know that Caucasoid race doesn't come out just Nordic race(fair hair and blue eyes), don't you?

Nordic race is just one of its sub-type as Mediterreanean race. And Mediterreanean has also sub-types: Irano-Afhgan, Arabid, Armanoid...
 
In my opinion, Turanid race should be in Mongolid group not, Caucasoid. The problem is people of Europe who was made these research first, try to definate Turanid race with based on Turks in Anatolia.

Meyers Map


He is adding Turks in Anatolia, Finns and Hungarians in to Mongoloid type, but he is looking lungustic (Ural-Altay Languages) not genetic.



In the Turkish world, I just put the people in Turkey, Azerbaijan and Turkmenistan in to Caucasoid race. Others should be in Mongoloid group. Mongoloid effect is more powerful than Caucasoid.







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Ellerin Kabe'si var,
Benim Kabem İnsandır


Posted By: Bulldog
Date Posted: 11-Mar-2013 at 06:55
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

The fact is that there was a strong Chinese influence on the Persian miniature after the Mongol conquests, as you can see in the eblow pic, even the red-haired Persian hero Rostam looks Mongoloid:


Thumbs Up

Ollios
In the Turkish world, I just put the people in Turkey, Azerbaijan and Turkmenistan in to Caucasoid race. Others should be in Mongoloid group. Mongoloid effect is more powerful than Caucasoid.
 

I don't really believe in classifications of races into Caucasoid/Mongoloid etc because there are no clear boundaries and people nations of people can't be put into categories. 

Generally speaking IMO Turks, pre-Mongol era were a Eurasian people who living between for arguments sake people with more Mongoloid features on the East and Caucasoid features on the West had to have had features from both. 

Chinese records point to this, they clearly differentiate the Xiongnu and GokTurks as looking different to themselves and having beards/facial hair as well as coloured eyes and hair. 

Turks in Turkey, Azerbaijan, Turkmenistan in general look quite similar and I would parts of Uzbekistan and the Uygurs with this group as well. 

You see quite a lot of people with almond shaped eyes and dark hair, seeing people with let's say slightly 'Mongoloid' eyes and high cheek bones is not uncommon in Turkey. But these are just generalisations of course there are blonde, blue eyes, green eyed etc but there are also the same colours in Turkmenistan and even the Uygur regions in China. 




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      What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal.
Albert Pine



Posted By: Shamshir
Date Posted: 11-Mar-2013 at 11:30
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

The fact is that there was a strong Chinese influence on the Persian miniature after the Mongol conquests, as you can see in the eblow pic, even the red-haired Persian hero Rostam looks Mongoloid:


Thanks for the info. Thumbs Up
Had been wondering why Iranians look Mongoloid in those miniatures.


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Posted By: MrButlerKing
Date Posted: 13-Mar-2013 at 07:09
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

The fact is that there was a strong Chinese influence on the Persian miniature after the Mongol conquests, as you can see in the eblow pic, even the red-haired Persian hero Rostam looks Mongoloid:


Be that as it may, there is no portrait of of those during their time. I see slanty eye men in those pictures, I wouldn't say they look mongoloid just because the distance of face is in the picture is too small, obviously their eyes would end up small, I like to see a closer up picture.

Thanks for the info. Thumbs Up
Had been wondering why Iranians look Mongoloid in those miniatures.
Turks have lived in Iran since 970 when the Ghaznanid conquered Middle east and many became Iranians by adopting persian culture. Even The Turks began speaking persians.


I don't know but  one of the reason I believe in it strongly is  because there still Mongoloid looking Turks in Persia. For example this paintings is found in today's Golestan palace were Mongoloid Turks still lives lol and these people DNA are unaffected by Mongolian like Hazara but instead they have 42.6% of haplgroup Q.


Painting by Rashid al-Din
http://en.wikipedia.org/Rashid%20al-Dinwiki/Shahnameh - http://en.wikipedia.org/Rashid al-Dinwiki/Shahnameh

http://www.payvand.com/news/05/may/1196.html - http://www.payvand.com/news/05/may/1196.html

Here are same people from the same location where the painting is today.





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Posted By: MrButlerKing
Date Posted: 13-Mar-2013 at 07:15
Originally posted by Bulldog

Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

The fact is that there was a strong Chinese influence on the Persian miniature after the Mongol conquests, as you can see in the eblow pic, even the red-haired Persian hero Rostam looks Mongoloid:


Thumbs Up

Ollios
In the Turkish world, I just put the people in Turkey, Azerbaijan and Turkmenistan in to Caucasoid race. Others should be in Mongoloid group. Mongoloid effect is more powerful than Caucasoid.
 

I don't really believe in classifications of races into Caucasoid/Mongoloid etc because there are no clear boundaries and people nations of people can't be put into categories. 

Generally speaking IMO Turks, pre-Mongol era were a Eurasian people who living between for arguments sake people with more Mongoloid features on the East and Caucasoid features on the West had to have had features from both. 

Chinese records point to this, they clearly differentiate the Xiongnu and GokTurks as looking different to themselves and having beards/facial hair as well as coloured eyes and hair. 

Turks in Turkey, Azerbaijan, Turkmenistan in general look quite similar and I would parts of Uzbekistan and the Uygurs with this group as well. 

You see quite a lot of people with almond shaped eyes and dark hair, seeing people with let's say slightly 'Mongoloid' eyes and high cheek bones is not uncommon in Turkey. But these are just generalisations of course there are blonde, blue eyes, green eyed etc but there are also the same colours in Turkmenistan and even the Uygur regions in China. 



About 30% of Kazakhs from western Mongolia have colored eyes and hair too. Even Oirat Mongolians have many of these traits.



The Xiongnu and Gokturks were both described about the same. There ain't that many differences.

Facial reconstruction of Gokturks


Facial reconstruction of Xiognu




Turks in Turkey, Azerbaijan, Turkmenistan in general look quite similar and I would parts of Uzbekistan and the Uygurs with this group as well. 


I wouldn't say that my friend. More like Azeris, Turkish, Southern Turkmen look closer. While Northern Turkmen, Southern Uzbeks, Uyghurs look closer.

Tajiks also look closer to Turkmen but their not turks though.



Southern Turkmens are 1/8  to 1/3 Mongoloid genetic shows Turkmens from the Northern and Eastern part are between 1/4 to 1/2 Mongoloid.






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Posted By: MrButlerKing
Date Posted: 13-Mar-2013 at 07:46






Okay examples of Turkmen from Turkmenabat.
 

I suggest you click the picture and zoom in for this one, don't be fooled by the distance


These paintings are also ancient persian painting after the Mongol conquest.









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Posted By: Nick1986
Date Posted: 13-Mar-2013 at 19:23
MrButlerKing, why does it matter so much if the Turks were "Mongoloid" or not?

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Me Grimlock not nice Dino! Me bash brains!


Posted By: MrButlerKing
Date Posted: 13-Mar-2013 at 22:41
Originally posted by Nick1986

MrButlerKing, why does it matter so much if the Turks were "Mongoloid" or not?

Modern Turkish people always like to say their Caucasoid just so can identify directly with Central Asians and not with ancient Anatolians. I like to see how they call Mongoloid or Half Mongoloid people their ancestors.


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Posted By: Ollios
Date Posted: 14-Mar-2013 at 10:57
Originally posted by MrButlerKing

I don't really believe in classifications of races into Caucasoid/Mongoloid etc

 
I want to remind you that your title is about being mongoloid. Now you are saying that you didn't belive it. Confused

Originally posted by MrButlerKing


because there are no clear boundaries and people nations of people can't be put into categories. 


I agree you, there is no clear boundaries, but we have use categories. Think about general life. Platypus is bird or mammal? We always have to decide.

Originally posted by MrButlerKing


Turks in Turkey, Azerbaijan, Turkmenistan in general look quite similar and I would parts of Uzbekistan and the Uygurs with this group as well. 

I wouldn't say that my friend. More like Azeris, Turkish, Southern Turkmen look closer. While Northern Turkmen, Southern Uzbeks, Uyghurs look closer.


However, they are not unique homogeneous group of people. Mongoloid genes clearly increase, if you go people in east. Also I wouldn't ignore mongoloid genes. My point is that if you have to decide a side/category. not just Turks in Turkey, also Turkmen people of Turkmenistan should be in Caucasoid group.

Did you check your sources well?

Originally posted by MrButlerKing

Southern Turkmens are 1/8  to 1/3 Mongoloid genetic shows Turkmens from the Northern and Eastern part are between 1/4 to 1/2 Mongoloid.




According to your sources, Turkmen people are more West Eurasian than East Eurasian. Big smile

Originally posted by MrButlerKing

Modern Turkish people always like to say their Caucasoid just so can identify directly with Central Asians and not with ancient Anatolians. I like to see how they call Mongoloid or Half Mongoloid people their ancestors.


Same problem, I thought I was clear in the first paragraf of my first post. What did you mean by Turks?

Turk: Central Asian Turks
Turk: Modern Turkish People 

If your issue is about modern Turkish people, as you said above, why you are using Turkmen sources? Confused

*No, not. People in Turkey is just now starting to accept their Anatolian heritage. Before that all of them, believe that they are Central Asian. They have just started to say that after recent genetic research. 

*I can not still see any proof about "can identify directly with Central Asians and not with ancient Anatolians." As I told before. In fact, you gave me sources about West Eurasian heritage of Turkmen people.

*"Mongoloid or Half Mongoloid"  That means 100% or 50%. Confused
Turks can be the most mongoloid nation of Europe, but they are still caucasoid. Because their mongoloid structure is less than 25%.



Modern Turks of Turkey definetly belongs Middle East and South Europe.



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Ellerin Kabe'si var,
Benim Kabem İnsandır


Posted By: Bulldog
Date Posted: 14-Mar-2013 at 13:10
Originally posted by MrButlerKing



I suggest you click the picture and zoom in for this one, don't be fooled by the distance



 

If you told me this picture was from Azerbaycan, Turkey, Eastern Turkestan.. I wouldn't be surprised as same dances, dresses, songs are in all these areas. 



Ollios
No, not. People in Turkey is just now starting to accept their Anatolian heritage. Before that all of them, believe that they are Central Asian. They have just started to say that after recent genetic research.  

*I can not still see any proof about "can identify directly with Central Asians and not with ancient Anatolians." As I told before. In fact, you gave me sources about West Eurasian heritage of Turkmen people.

*"Mongoloid or Half Mongoloid"  That means 100% or 50%. Confused 
Turks can be the most mongoloid nation of Europe, but they are still caucasoid. Because their mongoloid structure is less than 25%.
 


I don't understand why some people try to link genetics and nationhood. 

Firstly, Turks before the Mongol expansion, well the Turks West of the Caspian looked pretty similar to the Turkmen in Turkmenistan today. 

Nation wise, Turks of Turkey, Azerbaycan, Iran, Turkmenistan, middle east, Balkans... all belong to the Oghuz Turks, the Turkish is mutually intelligible, same legends & epics, similar cuisines, music etc 

Oghuz Turks were from Western Eurasia, the idea that they were 100% Mongoloid whatever that even means isn't logical. 

The Turks are Mongols argument is the subject of pseudoscience and ethnic nationalism. 

It stems from the extreme-nationalist ideologies of the region which claim Turks are Mongols and should go back to Mongolia. 

And that Turks in Turkey and Western Asia aren't really Turks they just think they are Confused people saying they are Turks apparently are not and are living under the yoke of the Turks... ridiculous arguments


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      What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal.
Albert Pine



Posted By: yomud
Date Posted: 14-Mar-2013 at 15:15
Originally posted by MrButlerKing

Originally posted by Nick1986

MrButlerKing, why does it matter so much if the Turks were "Mongoloid" or not?

Modern Turkish people always like to say their Caucasoid just so can identify directly with Central Asians and not with ancient Anatolians. I like to see how they call Mongoloid or Half Mongoloid people their ancestors.
u need at least 50% people mongoloid to claim that they have mongol background which is not
u talk about turkmens b4 and  i didn't answer ur trolling i i see u took pic of hazars from afghanestan and claim they are turkmen and they are from turkmenistan but they aren't every one who live in khorasan knows they are not turkmen i can explain if need it !!! now i ill put my pic my brother and my sister and my gf its very simple any one can find turkmen pic from facebook




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yomud are free people


Posted By: MrButlerKing
Date Posted: 14-Mar-2013 at 18:16
Originally posted by Ollios

Originally posted by MrButlerKing

I don't really believe in classifications of races into Caucasoid/Mongoloid etc

 
I want to remind you that your title is about being mongoloid. Now you are saying that you didn't belive it. Confused

Originally posted by MrButlerKing


because there are no clear boundaries and people nations of people can't be put into categories. 


I agree you, there is no clear boundaries, but we have use categories. Think about general life. Platypus is bird or mammal? We always have to decide.

Originally posted by MrButlerKing


Turks in Turkey, Azerbaijan, Turkmenistan in general look quite similar and I would parts of Uzbekistan and the Uygurs with this group as well. 

I wouldn't say that my friend. More like Azeris, Turkish, Southern Turkmen look closer. While Northern Turkmen, Southern Uzbeks, Uyghurs look closer.


However, they are not unique homogeneous group of people. Mongoloid genes clearly increase, if you go people in east. Also I wouldn't ignore mongoloid genes. My point is that if you have to decide a side/category. not just Turks in Turkey, also Turkmen people of Turkmenistan should be in Caucasoid group.

Did you check your sources well?

Originally posted by MrButlerKing

Southern Turkmens are 1/8  to 1/3 Mongoloid genetic shows Turkmens from the Northern and Eastern part are between 1/4 to 1/2 Mongoloid.




According to your sources, Turkmen people are more West Eurasian than East Eurasian. Big smile

Originally posted by MrButlerKing

Modern Turkish people always like to say their Caucasoid just so can identify directly with Central Asians and not with ancient Anatolians. I like to see how they call Mongoloid or Half Mongoloid people their ancestors.


Same problem, I thought I was clear in the first paragraf of my first post. What did you mean by Turks?

Turk: Central Asian Turks
Turk: Modern Turkish People 

If your issue is about modern Turkish people, as you said above, why you are using Turkmen sources? Confused

*No, not. People in Turkey is just now starting to accept their Anatolian heritage. Before that all of them, believe that they are Central Asian. They have just started to say that after recent genetic research. 

*I can not still see any proof about "can identify directly with Central Asians and not with ancient Anatolians." As I told before. In fact, you gave me sources about West Eurasian heritage of Turkmen people.

*"Mongoloid or Half Mongoloid"  That means 100% or 50%. Confused
Turks can be the most mongoloid nation of Europe, but they are still caucasoid. Because their mongoloid structure is less than 25%.



Modern Turks of Turkey definetly belongs Middle East and South Europe.


I mean't Turkish people want to say Turkic people were Caucasoid but they were not. Turkish people today are not even real Turks, they are primary descendants of Anatolians who mixed with a very large number of Turkmen who were part Mongoloid.


According to your sources, Turkmen people are more West Eurasian than East Eurasian.  :)

It doesn't matter their still a mixed group, Turkish should be considered Caucasoid with slight mongoloid admixture. But Turkmen should be consider mixed, if we consider them as Caucasoid because they are closer to Caucasoid than many hollywood celebrities who are 1/4 Chinese, 1/3 Japanese, or almost 1/2 Korean should all be considered Caucasoid.


Turks can be the most mongoloid nation of Europe, but they are still caucasoid. Because their mongoloid structure is less than 25%.

Turks from Turkey I can agree although Mongoloid admixture can range in Turkey from province to province, some province shows Turkish people are 15-20% Mongoloid on average.  That means that many of the  Turkmen/Sejuks who conquered Turkey would have been from 30-40% Mongoloid.

Turkish Aydin



1 Sample 18.5% Mongoloid admixture
2 Sample 18% Mongoloid admixture
1 Sample 17% Mongoloid admixture
3 Sample 15% Mongoloid admixture

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1 Sample 13.7% Mongoloid admixture
2 Sample 13.5% Mongoloid admixture
1 Sample 12.5% Mongoloid admixture

-----------------------

1  Sample 8% Mongoloid admixture
2  Sample 3.5% Mongoloid admixture
1  Sample 2.5% Mongoloid admixture
1  Sample 2% Mongoloid admixture
1  Sample 0% Mongoloid admixture



Turkish Instanbul






2 Samples have 15% Mongoloid admixture
1 Samples have 13% Mongoloid admixture
2 Samples have 12.5% Mongoloid admixture

-----------------

1 Sample 8%    Mongoloid admixture
2 Samples 6.8%   Mongoloid admixture
9 Samples 4.5 - 6%   Mongoloid admixture

----------------------

1 sample  0.5%

Turkish Kayseri

3 Samples 12 - 13% 
5 Samples  6-7% Mongoloid
10 Samples 4-5% Mongoloid
5 Samples 3.5% Mongoloid


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Posted By: MrButlerKing
Date Posted: 14-Mar-2013 at 18:24


50% is only part, in my opinion , so is 25%. If a 50% Mongoloid mated with a Caucasian he will be 25% Mongoloid.

took pic of hazars from afghanestan  

Try proving that to me. All those pictures are Turkmen from Golestan.


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Posted By: MrButlerKing
Date Posted: 14-Mar-2013 at 19:07
Nation wise, Turks of Turkey, Azerbaycan, Iran, Turkmenistan, middle east, Balkans... all belong to the Oghuz Turks, the Turkish is mutually intelligible, same legends & epics, similar cuisines, music etc


Oghuz originated from what eastern Kazakhstan and expanded south to Turkmenistan and mixed the indeniousness Iranic people.


Your original Oghuz speaker look like this

Among the Oghuz (mainly in the steppe zone of their resettlement) dominated Mongoloid racial type. "They - wrote about the Aral Oghuz in the tenth century. Al-Masudi, - most of undersized (Turks) and they have very small eyes" [11]. Other medieval authors note poorly defined vegetation on the face and body and Ploskonos Oguz. All of this suggests Mongoloid features that were characteristic of the bulk predominantly steppe Oguz [12].





 Turkey was not the only one's who transported millions of Balkan and Circassian slaves to their contry and diluting their Mongoloid DNA., even the Uzbek and Turkmen also had transported million of Iranian slaves to their countries.

MILLION OF TURKMEN AND UZBEKS TODAY ARE REALITY DESCENDANTS OF PERSIAN SLAVES, WHO MIXED AND ASSIMILATED WITH TURKS AND DILUTING THEIR MONGOLOID DNA

" During the first half of the 19th century alone, some one million Persians, as well as an unknown number of Russians, were enslaved and transported to Central Asian khanates.[33][34] When the Russian troops took Khiva in 1898 there were 29,300 Persian slaves, captured by Turkoman raiders. According of Josef Wolff (Report of 1843–1845) the population of the Khanate of  Bukhara was 1,200,000, of whom 200,000 were Persian slaves.[35]  "

Source:^ Mayhew, Bradley. "Fabled Cities of Central Asia: Samarkand, Bukhara, Khiva: Robin Magowan, Vadim E. Gippenreiter". Amazon.com. Retrieved 4 December 2011.
^ Report of Josef Wolff 1843–1845
^ "Slave of the Caucasus". BBC News. 1


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Posted By: red clay
Date Posted: 14-Mar-2013 at 21:49
BK, you might not fully understand the full meaning of this, if not, ask around.
 
You sir are trying my patience and open mindedness, to the limits. Do not challenge or ignore my authority, you won't like the results.
 
 


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"Arguing with someone who hates you or your ideas, is like playing chess with a pigeon. No matter what move you make, your opponent will walk all over the board and scramble the pieces".
Unknown.


Posted By: Bulldog
Date Posted: 14-Mar-2013 at 21:56
Originally posted by MrButlerKing


I mean't Turkish people want to say Turkic people were Caucasoid but they were not. Turkish people today are not even real Turks, they are primary descendants of Anatolians who mixed with a very large number of Turkmen who were part Mongoloid.
 

This is exactly what I mean, pseudo science mixed with ideology and some kind of ethnic-nationalism. 

Nobody said Turks are Caucasoid or Mongoloid, your talking about Eurasia where exactly is the boundary where 'Caucasoid' becomes 'Mongoloid' where is it? 

The region where Turks are from is inbetween Caucasoid/Mongoloid people, it's very plausible in fact it would be a miracle for Turks not to have elements of both. 

Who are you to determine who is or isn't a real Turk? do you know how Turks looked prior to the Mongol invasion? 

Why do the most populous Turkish group the Oghuz for the most part look pretty similar? why is it that the Turks who fled from the Mongols look pretty similar? we are talking numbers around 100-150 million! a huge population mass. 

So one day Anatolians decided they would become Turks... common... your telling me sedentary, educated city folk in Anatolian cities which were among the most advanced on Earth decided they were going to adopt the way of nomadic warriors within a few decades? 

Because a century after the Turks arrived in Anatolia there was such a change that Europeans called the land Turchia, it's not a term coined by the Turks. 

What is a Turk? if someone says they are a Turk, speaks Turkish as their mother tongue, there parents were Turks etc etc who are you to say they aren't Turks? 

Turks traditionally had no concept of 'pure blood' they practiced marrying outside of the tribe, mixing was very much encouraged and they were right as it is more healthy to bring new genes in.


It doesn't matter their still a mixed group, Turkish should be considered Caucasoid with slight mongoloid admixture. But Turkmen should be consider mixed, if we consider them as Caucasoid because they are closer to Caucasoid than many hollywood celebrities who are 1/4 Chinese, 1/3 Japanese, or almost 1/2 Korean should all be considered Caucasoid.pe, but they are still caucasoid. Because their mongoloid structure is less than 25%. 

Turks from Turkey I can agree although Mongoloid admixture can range in Turkey from province to province, some province shows Turkish people are 15-20% Mongoloid on average.  That means that many of the  Turkmen/Sejuks who conquered Turkey would have been from 30-40% Mongoloid.
 

Comparing todays Mongoloid Caucosoid etc is a red herring, post-Mongol invasion its difficult to get a true grasp of the demographic change which took place. A lot of the male population was exterminated, Ceghiz Kagan raped so many women that today he has 20 million descendants. 

Measuring Turkishness by how Mongol a person looks is a red herring argument. Shouldn't Chinese be the real Turks then...

Oghuz originated from what eastern Kazakhstan and expanded south to Turkmenistan and mixed the indeniousness Iranic people.
 


Comparing todays Mongoloid Caucosoid etc is a red herring, post-Mongol invasion its difficult to get a true grasp of the demographic change which to 

Again your confusing pre-Mongol Kazakistan with post-Mongol Kazakistan. 

Also Iranic people if you go back far enough are also from Eurasia/Central Asia so there is another red herring. 


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      What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal.
Albert Pine



Posted By: Qaradag
Date Posted: 15-Mar-2013 at 01:08
Dear bulldog, you should at least know that you are dealing with a troll whos sole purpose is trolling, don't waste your time.


Posted By: yomud
Date Posted: 15-Mar-2013 at 04:32
Originally posted by MrButlerKing



50% is only part, in my opinion , so is 25%. If a 50% Mongoloid mated with a Caucasian he will be 25% Mongoloid.

took pic of hazars from afghanestan  

Try proving that to me. All those pictures are Turkmen from Golestan.
u want me to prove ur pic are wrong ok than one of ur pic is pic of khodadad azizi persian football player he is very famous and he is live in tehran not golestan i wonder why u keep lying  and i didn't mean turkmen should have 50 mongoloid gene i said turkmen must have at least half of their population mongoloid

this is my bro gazi osman pasha univ-skishehir-turkey

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Turkmenistan -

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yomud are free people


Posted By: yomud
Date Posted: 15-Mar-2013 at 04:44
i dont see any of mongolid gene u talking about


 

skishehir-turky




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yomud are free people


Posted By: yomud
Date Posted: 15-Mar-2013 at 04:46
this is my gf she wear  blue turkmen charghad

gonbad e kavus- turkmen sahra-iran


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yomud are free people


Posted By: MrButlerKing
Date Posted: 15-Mar-2013 at 05:47
This is exactly what I mean, pseudo science mixed with ideology and some kind of ethnic-nationalism.

Is that the only thing you can say? if it's pseudo science than why even your own Turkish scientist  claim you are not what you are?

Even in terms of Caucasoid DNA Turkish people are different from Central Asian

"According to a 2012 study on ethnic Turks of Turkey, Hodoğlugil revealed that there is a significant overlap between Turks and Middle Easterners and a relationship with Europeans and South and Central Asians when Kyrgyz samples are genotyped and analysed. It displays a genetic ancestry for the Turks of 45% Middle Eastern, 40% European and 15% Central Asian. However, the Turkish genetic structure is unique, and there is an admixture of Turkish people reflecting the population migration patterns"



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Posted By: MrButlerKing
Date Posted: 15-Mar-2013 at 05:52

u want me to prove ur pic are wrong ok than one of ur pic is pic of khodadad azizi persian football player he is very famous and he is live in tehran not golestan i wonder why u keep lying  and i didn't mean turkmen should have 50 mongoloid gene i said turkmen must have at least half of their population mongoloid 
this is my bro gazi osman pasha univ-skishehir-turkey


You haven't proven me wrong at all. 

Khodadad Azizi was born in Mashad which is very close to modern day Golestan. It doesn't matter if he lives in Tehran now, what matters is where he was born.


i wonder why u keep lying  and i didn't mean turkmen should have 50 mongoloid gene i said turkmen must have at least half of their population mongoloid 

I didn't say 50% of Turkmen look Mongoloid, trying proving that I did first. I claimed a large part of your population looks Mongoloid and Turkmen should be considered mix.




Originally posted by yomud

this is my gf she wear  blue turkmen charghad  

gonbad e kavus- turkmen sahra-iran


i dont see any of mongolid gene u talking about

 

I didn't say all Turkmen look Mongoloid, not that it changes anything by posting such pic. Hey man, looking like Caucasoid doesn't mean you don't have Mongoloid genes.


Here are example people that looks nothing mongoloid either,

This women is a hollywood actress and she is green eyed half Chinese / half dutch. Her name is kristen kreuk



This guy is a actor and he is half Korean and half Canadian. His name is Julian Kang




Mike Shinoda half Japanese



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Posted By: Bulldog
Date Posted: 15-Mar-2013 at 06:10
Originally posted by MrButlerKing

This is exactly what I mean, pseudo science mixed with ideology and some kind of ethnic-nationalism.

Is that the only thing you can say? if it's pseudo science than why even your own Turkish scientist  claim you are not what you are?

Even in terms of Caucasoid DNA Turkish people are different from Central Asian
 

Compare people from Turkey with people from Azerbaycan, Iran, Turkmenistan and see what you get.  

You talk of Central Asia like its a homogenous block.

Again your totally ignoring the fact that the Mongols committed one of the biggest population shifts ad demographic changes in history. Estimates of up to 30-40 million deaths, mass rapes etc etc in that era caused major changes.

The Turks who fled West were pre-Mongol era, the Oghuz Turks still felt the impact of the Mongols but not as harshly as those on the Steppe. 


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      What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal.
Albert Pine



Posted By: MrButlerKing
Date Posted: 15-Mar-2013 at 06:18
Originally posted by Bulldog

Originally posted by MrButlerKing

This is exactly what I mean, pseudo science mixed with ideology and some kind of ethnic-nationalism.

Is that the only thing you can say? if it's pseudo science than why even your own Turkish scientist  claim you are not what you are?

Even in terms of Caucasoid DNA Turkish people are different from Central Asian
 

Compare people from Turkey with people from Azerbaycan, Iran, Turkmenistan and see what you get.  

You talk of Central Asia like its a homogenous block.

Again your totally ignoring the fact that the Mongols committed one of the biggest population shifts ad demographic changes in history. Estimates of up to 30-40 million deaths, mass rapes etc etc in that era caused major changes.

The Turks who fled West were pre-Mongol era, the Oghuz Turks still felt the impact of the Mongols but not as harshly as those on the Steppe. 


Hey yo, I didn't deny that Mongolian genetic changed what the demographic of Central Asian looked like.  However Central Asians were still between Mongoloid and Caucasoid. Mongolian invasion added 20-25% of their Mongoloid genes to Central Asia.

Why Kazakh and Kyrgyz  are genetically 70% Mongoloid? historically they were 35 -50% Mongoloid according to racial anthropology, after the invasion they got effected heavily and look Mongoloid as a result.   Uzbeks also got influenced and they were originally 20-30% Mongoloid on average, now they are 40-50% Mongoloid.


Don't believe me?

http://www.scientificfund.kz/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=7:physical-anthropology-of-kazakh-people-and-their-genesis&catid=4:1&Itemid=4



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Posted By: MrButlerKing
Date Posted: 15-Mar-2013 at 06:36
BK, you might not fully understand the full meaning of this, if not, ask around.
 
You sir are trying my patience and open mindedness, to the limits. Do not challenge or ignore my authority, you won't like the results.


Originally posted by Qaradag

Dear bulldog, you should at least know that you are dealing with a troll whos sole purpose is trolling, don't waste your time.

If my purpose here is to troll like you guys think, than why aren't I spamming post but rather posting stuffs with hardcore facts?

I had all my evidences prepared to counter attack your claims. 


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Posted By: yomud
Date Posted: 15-Mar-2013 at 06:39
Originally posted by MrButlerKing

Originally posted by yomud

this is my gf she wear  blue turkmen charghad

gonbad e kavus- turkmen sahra-iran


Hey man, looking Caucasoid doesn't mean you don't have Mongoloid genes.


This women is a hollywood actress and she is half Chinese / half dutch. Her name is kristen kreuk



This guy is a actor and he is half Korean and half Canadian. His name is Julian Kang


first this 2 people are NOT look like my gf or my bro u better check ur eye maybe u need see a doctor 2nd i dont think any one check iranian turkmen gene in turkmenistan there are only 2 tribe Sarykand tekke but in iran there are more than 100 tribe nokhurli live in mashad tekke live in bejnord and torba jam tribe of goklan live from kalale to gonbad and yomud live from gonbad to city of sari
yomud have 3 major tribe jafarbay atabay agh atabay there are also some tribe that we dont know their orgin like ghojogh they live some where near shahrood its very normal some turkmen seen like asian guys cuz in soviet time they most men go to war later russian never give them back they marry with russian and ukrainan womens and live in east euro so womens marry with kazak mens its normal
but not all of them look asians
for more info " 1st Turkmenistan Mountain Division"
see this pic this is turkmenistan land force


not all of them look asians for prove of this is right pic of turkmen army u can look on shoulders and turkmen emblemon the top of the pic

and in the end this is ur pic u said he is turkmen live in golestan but he is not turkmen and he dont live in golestan


u know this guy and u know he is not turkmen but still u introduce him as turkmen what kind of sick men ur are whats ur problem ?


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yomud are free people


Posted By: MrButlerKing
Date Posted: 15-Mar-2013 at 06:51
Originally posted by yomud

Originally posted by MrButlerKing

Originally posted by yomud

this is my gf she wear  blue turkmen charghad

gonbad e kavus- turkmen sahra-iran


Hey man, looking Caucasoid doesn't mean you don't have Mongoloid genes.


This women is a hollywood actress and she is half Chinese / half dutch. Her name is kristen kreuk



This guy is a actor and he is half Korean and half Canadian. His name is Julian Kang


first this 2 people are NOT look like my gf or my bro u better check ur eye maybe u need see a doctor 2nd i dont think any one check iranian turkmen gene in turkmenistan there are only 2 tribe Sarykand tekke but in iran there are more than 100 tribe nokhurli live in mashad tekke live in bejnord and torba jam tribe of goklan live from kalale to gonbad and yomud live from gonbad to city of sari
yomud have 3 major tribe jafarbay atabay agh atabay there are also some tribe that we dont know their orgin like ghojogh they live some where near shahrood its very normal some turkmen seen like asian guys cuz in soviet time they most men go to war later russian never give them back they marry with russian and ukrainan womens and live in east euro so womens marry with kazak mens its normal
but not all of them look asians
for more info " 1st Turkmenistan Mountain Division"
see this pic this is turkmenistan land force


not all of them look asians for prove of this is right pic of turkmen army u can look on shoulders and turkmen emblemon the top of the pic

and in the end this is ur pic u said he is turkmen live in golestan but he is not turkmen and he dont live in golestan


( by the way please remove that huge picture of Kristen Kruek, it's way too large. )

I'm making my point, you said you can't find Mongoloid genes in that guy ( as in appearance) and I'm telling you don't need too because many mix or part Asians are like that too.

Clearly mixed, 5 of them look more Asian, 8 them look mix but more Caucasian, the rest just looks almost Caucasoid.  Even in some cases 50/50 Asian can end up looking Caucasoid

I didn't say Turkmens are not 50/50 but many of you are 1/4 Asian, 1/3 Asian, 1/2 Asian, although the average is 1/5 Asian.  Here is 1/4 Chinese + 3/4 British model, her name is Alexa Chung. Do you understand what I'm saying?



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Posted By: MrButlerKing
Date Posted: 15-Mar-2013 at 07:01

Here is 5 Turkmen that look more Asian, I bolded them in red circle just for you to kno


and in the end this is ur pic u said he is turkmen live in golestan but he is not turkmen and he dont live in golestan  

It doesn't matter what you think, what matters are hardcore facts. He is officially considered Turkmen because he is a ethnic Turkmen who is also a national hero of Iran football.





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Posted By: yomud
Date Posted: 15-Mar-2013 at 08:06
first of all i never said " you can't find Mongoloid genes in that guy" i said not all of them look asians

2nd turkmen live with kazak and uzbegs in soviet union its normal to see mixed people even b4 this when mongols attack central asia they all mens and took the womens still it dont make turkmens  or turks are mongoloid background

3rd i dont know who told u that khodadad is turkmen it is honor to have national hero of football for us but he is NOT  turkmen ! if i am a turkmen which i am and if im iranian which i am i tell u this khodadad azizi is NOT A TURKMEN  he is persian he born in mashad im iranian i know this  u live in London how could u claim this "He is officially considered Turkmen because he is a ethnic Turkmen" if u walk in streets of tehran and yell khodadad azizi is turkmen than u will see the answer is just long loud laughing oh men u live in dream of trolling !


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yomud are free people


Posted By: MrButlerKing
Date Posted: 15-Mar-2013 at 12:29
All these talks are pointless if you don't have evidence, for example the 2nd point you made doesn't have any reality to it, show me  a source to back up your point.

Turkmen are the only Turks in Central Asia who are unaffected by mongol invasion and the evidence is they don't have haplogroup Q


[SIZE="5"]Asia
Q-M25 has been detected in the Northeast of East Asia, in South Asia, and across Central Asia.[1][2][3] Though present at low frequencies, it may be one of the more widely distributed branches of Q-M242 in Asia.


West Asia

The frequency of Q-M25 varies greatly across West Asia. This is eccoed in its distribution in Iran where it is over 9 percent of the population in the north but only 2 to 3 percent of the population in the south.[4] An extreme peek is seen in the Turkmen of Golestan).[5] The frequency of Q-M25 drops to only about 1 percent of the population in Lebanon's Muslims and is absent from the non-Muslim population there.[6] However, its presence in the Marsh Arabs of Iraq hints that Q-M25's West Asian history extends beyond a single localized recent founder.[7]


Europe

Q-M25 is present across modern Turkey[8] and in Eastern Europe.



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Posted By: yomud
Date Posted: 15-Mar-2013 at 13:39
idk what kind of source u have  that make u believe its unchangeable fact ! first i must say This map is not accurate even if we believe it is so as u say cuz of turkmen live in golestan we An have extreme peek seen in the Golestan but u have forget 1 of major population of turkmen in iran live in city of bandare torkaman and port of kumish tepe in shores of khazar sea how  can ur unchangeable fact source and ironically accurate map explaine this ? hey whats happen to ur extreme peek oh wait we have 37000 turkmen in russia whats happen to them ?? whats happend to turkmens of stavropol ? we have 4000 turkmen in ukraine ??? lol their q gene has gone ?? stop this racist trolling actions u cant prove turkmens or turks has mongole back ground










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yomud are free people


Posted By: yomud
Date Posted: 15-Mar-2013 at 13:47
u can see turk and turkmens are very close people 

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yomud are free people


Posted By: Ollios
Date Posted: 15-Mar-2013 at 14:47
First of all, I really appreciate you about your search, but my brain is off now Confused Don't you try to proof that Turks of Central Asian are Mongoloid? This was your title.

Yamud and I  are supporting that Turks in Turkey and Turkmens of Turkmenistan have mongol genetic materials but their percent is small for calling them as mongoloid

then you said
"It doesn't matter their still a mixed group, Turkish should be considered Caucasoid with slight mongoloid admixture. But Turkmen should be consider mixed"

so now problem is just Turkmens. Are they mixed race or caucasoid? Am I right? However, your last post is different. You are saying that they were not affected by Mongol Invasian and its proof is that they don't have haplogroup Q.Confused

Originally posted by MrButlerKing

Turkmen are the only Turks in Central Asia who are unaffected by mongol invasion and the evidence is they don't have haplogroup Q




If they weren't affected, why we are discussing? Why we should call them mixed(Caucasoid-Mongoloid)?

Some sources about Turkmens

http://www.cell.com/AJHG/retrieve/pii/S0002929707643523 - http://www.cell.com/AJHG/retrieve/pii/S0002929707643523

It says Turkmens; 55% European-18% South Asian -8% Middle Eastern- others. All these three groups are Caucasoid. That makes 70% Caucasoid.  
http://www.dnatribes.com/dnatribes-snp-admixture-2012-08-01.pdf - http://www.dnatribes.com/dnatribes-snp-admixture-2012-08-01.pdf

http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2010/08/1-in-200-men-direct-descendants-of-genghis-khan/ -




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Ellerin Kabe'si var,
Benim Kabem İnsandır




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