Why is history kinder to Mongols than to Nazis?
Printed From: History Community ~ All Empires
Category: Regional History or Period History
Forum Name: Steppe Nomads and Central Asia
Forum Discription: Nomads such as the Scythians, Huns, Turks & Mongols, and kingdoms of Central Asia
URL: http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=33287
Printed Date: 17-May-2024 at 11:00
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 9.56a - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: Why is history kinder to Mongols than to Nazis?
Posted By: Shamshir
Subject: Why is history kinder to Mongols than to Nazis?
Date Posted: 21-Feb-2013 at 05:58
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The title is self explanatory. |
Replies:
Posted By: TheAlaniDragonRising
Date Posted: 21-Feb-2013 at 07:01
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The honest answer, Shamshir, is probably time, and maybe expectations too. Expectations as the Nazis are in a comparatively recent time, and so close to how we are developmentally speaking, that it sickens us to think how a modern thinking mind can be so easily turned into such an abomination. ------------- What a handsome figure of a dragon. No wonder I fall madly in love with the Alani Dragon now, the avatar, it's a gorgeous dragon picture. |
Posted By: Shamshir
Date Posted: 22-Feb-2013 at 04:16
So, say 300 years from now the Nazis' crimes would be considered a normal event in history just like those of the Mongols? Our moral code shouldn't be bound by time and space. Either demonize both Nazis and Mongols or don't do it altogether. Don't you agree? ------------- |
Posted By: Cyrus Shahmiri
Date Posted: 22-Feb-2013 at 06:33
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It can be different in the different cultures, the southern part of Tehran is still called Nazi Abad (built by Nazis), you can look at Nazicenter website to see how Iranians respect Nazis! ------------- 
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Posted By: Shamshir
Date Posted: 22-Feb-2013 at 06:43
There are rotten apples in every basket, and Iran is not an exception. ------------- |
Posted By: Baal Melqart
Date Posted: 22-Feb-2013 at 16:50
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Very good question Shamshir. I think the reason is fairly simple. Nazis did horrible things and murdered people because of an ideology, one which placed them as eugenically superior to other races. Mongols did a lot of horrible things similar to what the Nazis did but they only killed the people's they conquered to instil fear in hopes of conquering more land. They didn't gas or experiment on people and surely didn't kill people because they viewed themselves as racially superior to anyone... Which is exactly why they later on soaked up the religion/culture of those they conquered. The Mongols were a result of harsh life lived in the Steppes, thirst for opulence and a charismatic leader.... Nazis were a result of something very un-natural and sickening to the average person.. ------------- Timidi mater non flet |
Posted By: Mountain Man
Date Posted: 22-Feb-2013 at 18:59
Barbarism was a common and expected behavior among conquerors in the time of the Mongols, but not during WWII. ------------- Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? |
Posted By: lirelou
Date Posted: 22-Feb-2013 at 20:43
To expand what MM has said here:
------------- Phong trần mài một lưỡi gươm, Những loài giá áo túi cơm sá gì |
Posted By: Nick1986
Date Posted: 03-Mar-2013 at 19:42
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Unlike the Nazis, the Mongols didn't wipe out entire races as general practise. They only committed genocide if local rulers refused to cooperate ------------- Me Grimlock not nice Dino! Me bash brains! |
Posted By: TITAN_
Date Posted: 04-Mar-2013 at 13:32
| The question remains.... Who killed more people? The Mongols or the Nazis? Both took the lives of millions, that's for sure... |
Posted By: Nick1986
Date Posted: 04-Mar-2013 at 20:36
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Probably the Nazis because they had guns, bombs and poison gas
------------- Me Grimlock not nice Dino! Me bash brains! |
Posted By: Mountain Man
Date Posted: 05-Mar-2013 at 13:10
I go with Alani's response. Cultural mores and standards changed considerably from the time of the Mongols to the time of the Nazis. Previously everyone behaved that way, and then by the 20th century no one was supposed to behave that way any longer. Interesting that you did not make your comparison to the Asian WWII Axis power, the Japanese, probably a closer comparison than Asiatic Mongols to Western European Germanics. ------------- Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? |
Posted By: Mountain Man
Date Posted: 05-Mar-2013 at 13:15
That's a question of scale, and an industrialized nation with modern armaments is going to do better on that basis, but lacking modern industrialization and weapons of mass destruction would give the Mongols points for sheer ferocity, IMHO. One factor not yet considered is the capacity to hold and feed and control large numbers of captives. The Mongols had neither the time, the resources nor the inclination to keep large numbers of people around other than as possibly slaves. They weren't farmers, so feeding large numbers of captives would have been problematic, and they were highly mobile, so keepoi9ng a lot of captives would not have been an attractive option, either. Far easier to just slaughter everyone, gather up the loot and the women and move on. ------------- Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? |
Posted By: Mountain Man
Date Posted: 05-Mar-2013 at 13:20
It's not that easy, nor do I think that 300 years from now Nazi crimes wil be considered normal. That's a quantum leap in logic unsubstantiated by anything. While we acknowledge that the behavior of the Mongols was "normal" for their time and culture, we still do not accept it despite a much greater passage of time. Acknowledging cultural differences does not equate to acceptance, nor to indifference. ------------- Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? |
Posted By: Nick1986
Date Posted: 06-Mar-2013 at 19:02
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Didn't Genghis force the prisoners to accompany his army so it appeared larger? If a city surrendered without a fight, the Mongols were more likely to be merciful
------------- Me Grimlock not nice Dino! Me bash brains! |
Posted By: baydlag
Date Posted: 15-Mar-2013 at 01:29
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If Mongolians had killed local peoples as Nazis murdering Slavs Mongol empire or invasion couldn't be so successful. I think the Mongol army violence and murdering were only for make fear for next target nations or rebels.There is a legend: Once Genghis Khan and his generals were planned to massacre all the northern Chinese. Then Yelu Chucai said who will pay you taxes and tribute. So Genghis Khan changed his mind. |
Posted By: JuMong
Date Posted: 16-Mar-2013 at 15:20
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Interesting question... One thing we have to consider is the basic development of ethics over time. Conquest and building empires may have been acceptable at one time, but our basic concept of what's acceptable has change. Ideas like "ethic cleansing" and "genocide" are very modern conceits. What may have been acceptable terms of war at one time is now considered war crimes. One interesting point to make, Nazis did admire the Mongols and much of their famed techniques like "blitzkrieg" was based on Mongolian techniques involving their superior mobility based on their horsemanship. |
Posted By: Auggie
Date Posted: 24-Jun-2013 at 13:08
I do know that several years back Iran hosted an international conference on the Holocaust and whether or not it occurred as presented in the "official", never to be questioned, etched in granite version given us by Jewry and the survivors of the so-called death camps of eastern Poland. Naturally, regarding the conference, we here in the US heard nothing whatsoever of the details, what was actually discussed. Rather, our "impartial" news media informed/indoctrinated us that those no-good Holocaust deniers, the Iranians, were hosting one. ------------- Where it is a duty to worship the sun it is sure to be a crime to examine the laws of heat. - Voltaire |
Posted By: red clay
Date Posted: 24-Jun-2013 at 13:20
Auggie, tread lightly. Holocaust deniers here are slow roasted, then eaten. 
------------- "Arguing with someone who hates you or your ideas, is like playing chess with a pigeon. No matter what move you make, your opponent will walk all over the board and scramble the pieces". Unknown. |
Posted By: Auggie
Date Posted: 24-Jun-2013 at 13:34
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Well I really have no fear of being roasted and eaten by board members in regards to Holocaust revisionism, but is it the administartion's position that that should be the treatment received by those who would dare question certain historical events? I would hope not... ------------- Where it is a duty to worship the sun it is sure to be a crime to examine the laws of heat. - Voltaire |
Posted By: Cyrus Shahmiri
Date Posted: 24-Jun-2013 at 15:21
In the recent years, unfortunately what you said is one of reasons but the fact is that Nazis were always respected by Iranians mainly because Iranian/Aryan nationalism, you can read about this thing here: http://www.sodahead.com/united-states/nazi-germany-and-persia-iran/blog-258353/ - http://www.sodahead.com/united-states/nazi-germany-and-persia-iran/blog-258353/
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Posted By: Ollios
Date Posted: 24-Jun-2013 at 16:24
That's is quite normal. Even countries which occupied by Nazis and faced huge collapses as a result of Nazi Invasion, have many Nazi supporters just because of Aryan theories. Example: Russia and Greece http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Famine_%28Greece%29 - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Famine_(Greece) What is left from those days in Greece? |
Posted By: Auggie
Date Posted: 25-Jun-2013 at 10:43
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All well said and done, Cyrus, but of your nation's past and present infatuation with Hitlerite Germany, has it occurred to you that had it not been for what's happened in the past few decades in the region (and still is today) all such interest in national socialism may have waned by this point? Have current relations between Iran and Israel done anything at all to reverse the situation? My bet is that if peace should one day settle on the region all such distasteful ideologies -- both fascist and zionist -- will die a slow and agonizing death. Unfortunately I don't foresee a peaceful resolution to the problem, and I believe it will all end very badly; winner take all. ------------- Where it is a duty to worship the sun it is sure to be a crime to examine the laws of heat. - Voltaire |
Posted By: yomud
Date Posted: 25-Jun-2013 at 11:47
------------- yomud are free people |
Posted By: Cyrus Shahmiri
Date Posted: 25-Jun-2013 at 13:31
Some days ago Israel's president Shimon Peres said some interesting things about a possible relation between Iran and Israel: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/israel/10125968/Shimon-Peres-Israel-and-Iran-could-negotiate.html - http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/israel/10125968/Shimon-Peres-Israel-and-Iran-could-negotiate.html
One of the interesting things that he said was that he called the greatest Iranian king, Cyrus the Great, as the first Zionist in the world, of course I think he just refers to tolerance and religious freedom in the Iranian culture, as you probably know, Iran has already the largest Jewish population in the Middle East after Israel, in fact Iranians and Jews have lived in this region peacefully for thousands of years, the only danger is religious bigotry, unfortunately in the last decades, the worst possible thing has happened in Iran and a religious government has come to power, this is the only reason that we see this relation between Iran and Israel.
Anyway I just hope Islamism dies, nothing else! -------------
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Posted By: Auggie
Date Posted: 25-Jun-2013 at 14:02
------------- Where it is a duty to worship the sun it is sure to be a crime to examine the laws of heat. - Voltaire |
Posted By: Cyrus Shahmiri
Date Posted: 25-Jun-2013 at 15:18
Death of Zionism won't change anything, this liberation movement has achieved its goal by forming a strong Jewish state named Israel. -------------
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Posted By: Auggie
Date Posted: 26-Jun-2013 at 11:26
------------- Where it is a duty to worship the sun it is sure to be a crime to examine the laws of heat. - Voltaire |
Posted By: Cyrus Shahmiri
Date Posted: 26-Jun-2013 at 13:15
There has never been any country named Palestine, and hopefully this country won't be formed as long as Islamist terrorists rule there, Jews have full right to build everything everywhere in their motherland.
Arabs had also occupied some parts of Iran for a long time, some hundreds years ago, a liberation movement, similar to Zionism, happened in Khorasan, without this movement there would be probably an Arab state in the east of Iran named Khorasan, but there are already just a few Khorasani Arab villages in this region, I had talked about one of them in this thread: http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?tid=2018 - http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?tid=2018 -------------
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Posted By: Ollios
Date Posted: 26-Jun-2013 at 16:00
Completly true and it won't be a solution. İf winner take all instead of justice, that very bad end will be just a reason of next badx2 problem --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Really Cyrus, again. I can't stop to think that is there any possibility that gamma-ray which comes from a secret nuclear plant in Iran, was effected you. You seem to turn someone like HULK 
Name of Palestine is very old and is there a rule somthing like that, if you want to be country, there should be a country with same name in the past.
*There is a Jew history, before Levant/Palestine/Judea. Their homeland is not Levant. It is Iraq *if you really believe this idea, please use it for every nation on world.
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Posted By: Cyrus Shahmiri
Date Posted: 27-Jun-2013 at 06:43
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It is better to talk about these things in a proper topic, however I have talked about them in hundreds topics, Arabs have to forget some lands that they have lost after a long occupation, some decades ago Saddam with support of almost all Arab countries wanted to recapture Khuzestan of Iran, some million Iranians and Iraqi were killed but he couldn't do it, of course we never forget Israeli help, especially in Operation Opera that we worked together against Saddam: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Opera - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Opera The name of Palestine has nothing to do with Arabs, this ancient name can never help them, if Arabs want to continue their fight against Israel, this name, like Babylon and Sumer, wil be found just in the historical books in the near future. -------------
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Posted By: Ollios
Date Posted: 27-Jun-2013 at 11:26
About Iran-Iraq War, sorry for my short knowledge. I was just born in that time (summer of 1988) but I am curious.1-What about Arabs in Iran? They are Shia but have they ever organised for military attack or been included rebel movement as Kurds did (PJAK)? Are they happy in Iran as Jews? "Iranian Jews blast offer of cash for immigrating to Israel" (2007) http://www.haaretz.com/news/iranian-jews-blast-offer-of-cash-for-immigrating-to-israel-1.225507 - http://www.haaretz.com/news/iranian-jews-blast-offer-of-cash-for-immigrating-to-israel-1.225507 Iran should be proud of Jews in Iran. Well done for them  2-What was Turkish position in Iraq-Iran War? (according to Iranian sources) 3-Iraq has small coast line but it is too important for oil export so attacking Iran and Kuwait is understandable in military perspective. In read something which about before Saddam attacks, on net. Shah in Iran wanted Iraq's side of shatt al arab which had left Iraq with aggrement in 1937. That's why diplomatic relation cut off in 1970. After a new aggrement, island problems came in 1971. Are these true? It seems like a Iranian provocation. If Iran and Kuwait don't let Iraq reach the sea. I can see the future of region; it will be bloody again. |
Posted By: Cyrus Shahmiri
Date Posted: 27-Jun-2013 at 14:48
Arabs have their own cities and villages in Iran, especially in Khuzestan, about Iran-Iraq war, Saddam certainly thought Arabs of Iran would support him, but Iranian Arabs strongly stood against Iraqis and surprisingly showed their loyalty to Iran, of course there can be different reasons for it, I think one of main reasons was that they could preserve their own culture in Iran with the least problems. After war, one of these Arabs, named Ali Shamkhani, became the Minister of Defense in Iran.
It can't be denied that there have been always also some Arab separatist movements in Iran, especially those who are called Alahwazi, anyway some people with any ethnicity who are majority in a region think that they can have a better situation in a separate state!
Turks had really a positive role, they didn't support any side but they helped both sides to end this conflict, of course in the last years of this war when Kurds of Iraq supported Iran in fight against Saddam and Iranians could capture some parts of northern Iraq, Turks reached an agreement with Saddam to enter the northern parts of Iraq for repressing Kurds.
In the Middle East, these conflicts have always existed and still exist for different purposes, it is clear that capturing Khuzestan of Iran and Kuwait by Saddam, could also provide numerous economic benefits for Iraq. -------------
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Posted By: yomud
Date Posted: 27-Jun-2013 at 19:10
if u want know story about ethnics rebellion we will need make new topic but here's little info about whats happen on that days we was in civil war with all means but when iraq attacks iranian civil wars ended and saddam become main target for all peoples  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1979_Khuzestan_uprising arabs start rebellion and even they took iranian embassy in london http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1979_Kurdish_rebellion_in_Iran when shah gone and Revolution wins almost all the ethnic declares war with persians u know "half of Iran" was in rebellion turkmens kurds arabs balouchs was 4 major ethnics and their wars are famous in iran the first people who start the war was kurd people very soon after war started in kurdestian it starts in turkmensahar too and than it's taks all the north with mazeruni people and Gelik people ( gelik and mazeruni communist separatist rebellion in giland and mazandaran are not famous ) azeri turks play key role in crashing ethnics rebellion they forge turk-persian shia alliance . after turks allied with persians gelik abandoned they rights and no fight take in there place mazerunis communist separatist start little fight against persians but when azeris come to persians side they choose the winner side and agreed to enter war against turkmens for show their loyalty can you imagen it ?? former separatist now fighting against turkmens who even didn't want fedural goverment but just thier right full farms (which pahlavi take it ) and right of mother language keeping traditional dance cloth music wine culture in among the turkmen we dont have same hijab which persians have which all gone now  turkmens hold greatest ethnic army ( about 9000 b4 second war) we was last man standing after they defeat kurds arab balouchs and only ethnic who able to defeat turkopersian shia army . in first war we win and they accept our terms of pace they said they will give our right but they broke it when they finish thier job with other ethnics they start second war they win while their chieftain tanks open fire on our city leave the city with flame . later president banisadr call tanks action "just showing 10% of power "
 ( they accept the pace before they lose the war ) the real story is this war is taboo cuz it's full of thier mistakes and we must accpet what they saying not what the fact was !!!!!!!!!!!!!! iran take back all their lands in 3th years of war and saddam wanted to make pace but they refuse and keep fight for next 5 years and they accept the pace b4 they lose the war ------------- yomud are free people |
(summer of 1988) but I am curious.Posted By: lionmaster
Date Posted: 12-Dec-2013 at 06:29
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because Mongols succeeded, and Nazis were losers, as simple as that :) |
Posted By: toyomotor
Date Posted: 25-Dec-2013 at 23:57
| Shamsir: Please explain why history should treat the Nazis with anything than outrage, based on the atrocities carried out during WW2? |