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Abraham Lincoln

Printed From: History Community ~ All Empires
Category: General History
Forum Name: Rate Historical Figures
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URL: http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=32996
Printed Date: 30-Nov-2021 at 09:48
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Topic: Abraham Lincoln
Posted By: TheAlaniDragonRising
Subject: Abraham Lincoln
Date Posted: 15-Jan-2013 at 01:44
What is your opinion of Abraham Lincoln, 16th President of the United States of America? Below is a brief biography of Abraham Lincoln for you to read.

Abraham Lincoln is one of America’s greatest heroes because of his unique appeal. His is a remarkable story of the rise from humble beginnings to achieve the highest office in the land; then, a sudden and tragic death at a time when his country needed him most to complete the great task remaining before the nation. His distinctively human and humane personality and historical role as savior of the Union and emancipator of the slaves creates a legacy that endures. His eloquence of democracy, and his insistence that the Union was worth saving embody the ideals of self-government that all nations strive to achieve.

Childhood

Abraham Lincoln was born in a log cabin in Hardin County, Kentucky to Thomas Lincoln and Nancy Hanks Lincoln. Thomas was a strong and determined pioneer who found a moderate level of prosperity and was well respected in the community. The couple had two other children: Abraham’s older sister Sarah and younger brother Thomas, who died in infancy. Due to a land dispute, the Lincolns were forced to move from Kentucky to Perry County, Indiana in 1817, where the family “squatted” on public land to scrap out a living in a crude shelter, hunting game and farming a small plot. Thomas was eventually able to buy the land.

When young Abraham was 9 years old his mother died of tremetol (milk sickness) at age 34 and the event was devastating on him. The 9-year-old Abraham grew more alienated from his father and quietly resented the hard work placed on him at an early age. A few months after Nancy’s death, Thomas married Sarah Bush Johnston, a Kentucky widow with three children of her own. She was a strong and affectionate woman with whom Abraham quickly bonded. Though both his parents were most likely illiterate, Sarah encouraged Abraham to read. It was while growing into manhood that he received his formal education—an estimated total of 18 months—a few days or weeks at a time. Reading material was in short supply in the Indiana wilderness. Neighbors recalled how Abraham would walk for miles to borrow a book. He undoubtedly read the family Bible and probably other popular books at that time such as Robinson Crusoe, Pilgrims Progress and  http://www.biography.com/people/aesop-9176935 - Aesop ’s Fables.

Law Career

In March, 1830, the family again migrated, this time to Macon County, Illinois. When his father moved the family again to Coles County, 22-year-old Abraham Lincoln struck out on this own, making a living in manual labor.  At six feet four inches tall, Lincoln was rawboned and lanky, but muscular and physically strong. He spoke with a backwoods twang and walked with a long-striding gait. He was known for his skill in wielding an ax and early on made a living splitting wood for fire and rail fencing. Young Lincoln eventually migrated to the small community of New Salem, Illinois where over a period of years he worked as a shopkeeper, postmaster, and eventually general store owner. It was here that Lincoln, working with the public, acquired social skills and honed story-telling talent that made him popular with the locals.

When the  http://www.biography.com/people/black-hawk-9214053 - Black Hawk  War broke out in 1832 between the United States and Native Americans, the volunteers in the area elected Lincoln to be their captain. He saw no combat during this time, save for “a good many bloody struggles with the mosquitoes,” but was able to make several important political connections.

After the Black Hawk War, Abraham Lincoln began his political career and was elected to the Illinois state legislature in 1834 as a member of the Whig Party. He supported the Whig politics of government-sponsored infrastructure and protective tariffs. This political understanding led him to formulate his early views on slavery, not so much as a moral wrong, but as an impediment to economic development.  It was around this time he decided to become a lawyer, teaching himself the law by reading Blackstone’s Commentaries on the Laws of England. After being admitted to the bar in 1837, he moved to Springfield, Illinois and began to practice in the John T. Stuart law firm.

It was soon after this that he purportedly met and became romantically involved with Anne Rutledge. Before they had a chance to be engaged, a wave of typhoid fever came over New Salem and Anne died at age 22. Her death was said to have left Lincoln severely depressed. However, several historians disagree on the extent of Lincoln’s relationship with Rutledge and his level of sorrow at her death may be more the makings of legend.

In 1844, Abraham Lincoln partnered with William Herndon in the practice of law. Though the two had different jurisprudent styles, they developed a close professional and personal relationship. Lincoln made a good living in his early years as a lawyer, but found that Springfield alone didn’t offer enough work, so to supplement his income, he followed the court as it made its rounds on the circuit to the various county seats in Illinois. 

Entering Politics

Abraham Lincoln served a single term in the U.S. House of Representatives from 1847-'49. His foray into national politics seems to be as unremarkable as it was brief. He was the lone Whig from the state of Illinois, showing party loyalty, but finding few political allies. He used his term in office to speak out against the Mexican-American War and supported  http://www.biography.com/people/zachary-taylor-9503363 - Zachary Taylor  for president in 1848. His criticism of the war made him unpopular back home and he decided not to run for second term, but instead returned Springfield to practice law.

By the 1850s, the railroad industry was moving west and Illinois found itself becoming a major hub for various companies. Abraham Lincoln served as a lobbyist for the Illinois Central Railroad as its company attorney. Success in several court cases brought other business clients as well—banks, insurance companies and manufacturing firms. Lincoln also did some criminal trials. In one case, a witness claimed that he could identify Lincoln’s client who was accused of murder, because of the intense light from a full moon. Lincoln referred to an almanac and proved that the night in question had been too dark for the witness to see anything clearly.

His client was acquitted.

About a year after the death of Anne Rutledge, Lincoln courted Mary Owens. The two saw each other for a few months and marriage was considered. But in time Lincoln called off the match. In 1840, Lincoln became engaged to Mary Todd, a high spirited, well educated woman from a distinguished Kentucky family. In the beginning, many of the couple’s friends and family couldn’t understand Mary’s attraction, and at times Lincoln questioned it himself. However, in 1841, the engagement was suddenly broken off, most likely at Lincoln’s initiative. They met later, at a social function and eventually married on November 4, 1842. The couple had four children, of which only one, Robert, survived to adulthood.

Elected President

In 1854, Congress passed the Kansas-Nebraska Act, which repealed the Missouri Compromise, and allowed individual states and territories to decide for themselves whether to allow slavery. The law provoked violent opposition in Kansas and Illinois. And it gave rise to the Republican Party. This awakened Abraham Lincoln’ political zeal once again and his views on slavery moved more toward moral indignation. Lincoln joined the Republican Party in 1856.

In 1857, the Supreme Court issued its controversial decision Scott v. Sanford, declaring African Americans were not citizens and had no inherent rights. Though Abraham Lincoln felt African Americans were not equal to whites, he believed the America’s founders intended that all men were created with certain inalienable rights. Lincoln decided to challenge sitting U.S. Senator Stephen Douglas for his seat. In his nomination acceptance speech, he criticized Douglas, the Supreme Court, and President Buchanan for promoting slavery and declared “a house divided cannot stand.” The 1858 Senate campaign featured seven debates held in different cities all over Illinois. The two candidates didn’t disappoint the public, giving stirring debates on issues ranging from states’ rights to western expansion, but the central issue in all the debates was slavery. Newspapers intensely covered the debates, often times with partisan editing and interpretation. In the end, the state legislature elected Douglas, but the exposure vaulted Lincoln into national politics.

In 1860, political operatives in Illinois organized a campaign to support Lincoln for the presidency. On May 18th at the Republican National Convention in Chicago, Abraham Lincoln surpassed better known candidates such as  http://www.biography.com/people/william-seward-21010687 - William Seward  of New York and http://www.biography.com/people/salmon-p-chase-38185 - Salmon P. Chase  of Ohio. Lincoln’s nomination was due in part to his moderate views on slavery, his support for improving the national infrastructure, and the protective tariff. In the general election, Lincoln faced his friend and rival, Stephan Douglas, this time besting him in a four-way race that included John C. Breckinridge of the Northern Democrats and  http://www.biography.com/people/john-bell-9205657 - John Bell  of the Constitution Party. Lincoln received not quite 40 percent of the popular vote, but carried 180 of 303 Electoral votes.

Abraham Lincoln selected a strong cabinet composed of many of his political rivals, including William Seward, Salmon P. Chase,  http://www.biography.com/people/edward-bates-21022837 - Edward Bates  and  http://www.biography.com/people/edwin-stanton-21023019 - Edwin Stanton . Formed out the adage “Hold your friends close and your enemies closer”, Lincoln’s Cabinet became one of his strongest assets in his first term in office… and he would need them.

Before his inauguration in March, 1861, seven Southern states had seceded from the Union and by April the U.S. military installation Fort Sumter, was under siege in Charleston Harbor, South Carolina. In the early morning hours of April 12, 1861, the guns stationed to protect the harbor blazed toward the fort signaling the start of America’s costliest and most deadly conflict.

Civil War

Abraham Lincoln responded to the crisis wielding powers as no other present before him. He distributed $2,000,000 from the Treasury for war materiel without an appropriation from Congress; he called for 75,000 volunteers into military service without a declaration of war; and he suspended the writ of habeas corpus, arresting and imprisoning suspected Confederate sympathizers without a warrant. Crushing the rebellion would be difficult under any circumstances, but the Civil War, with its preceding decades of white-hot partisan politics, was especially onerous. From all directions, Lincoln faced disparagement and defiance. He was often at odds with his generals, his Cabinet, his party, and a majority of the American people.

The Union Army’s first year and a half of battlefield defeats made it especially difficult to keep morale up and support strong for a reunification the nation. With the hopeful, but by no means conclusive Union victory at Antietam on September 22, 1862, Abraham felt confident enough to reshape the cause of the war from “union” to abolishing slavery. Gradually, the war effort improved for the North, though more by attrition then by brilliant military victories. But by 1864, the Confederacy had hunkered down to a guerilla war and Lincoln was convinced he’d be a one-term president. His nemesis, George B. McClellan, the former commander of the Army of the Potomac, challenged him for the presidency, but the contest wasn’t even close. Lincoln received 55 percent of the popular vote and 212 of 243 Electoral votes. On March 28, 1865, General  http://www.biography.com/people/robert-e-lee-9377163 - Robert E. Lee , commander of the Army of Virginia, surrendered his forces to Union General  http://www.biography.com/people/ulysses-s-grant-9318285 - Ulysses S. Grant  and the war for all intents and purposes was over.

Assassination

Reconstruction began during the war as early as 1863 in areas firmly under Union military control. Abraham Lincoln favored a policy of quick reunification with a minimum of retribution. But he was confronted by a radical group of Republicans in the Senate and House that wanted complete allegiance and repentance from former Confederates. Before a political battle had a chance to firmly develop, Lincoln was assassinated on April 14, 1865, by well-known actor and Confederate sympathizer  http://www.biography.com/people/john-wilkes-booth-9219681 - John Wilkes Booth  at Ford’s Theater in Washington, D.C. Lincoln was taken from the theater to a Petersen House across the street and laid in a coma for nine hours before dying the next morning. His body lay in state at the Capitol before a funeral train took him back to his final resting place in Springfield, Illinois.

http://www.biography.com/people/abraham-lincoln-9382540?page=1 - http://www.biography.com/people/abraham-lincoln-9382540?page=1

  • http://www.biography.com/people/abraham-lincoln-9382540?page=1#synopsis - Synopsis
  • http://www.biography.com/people/abraham-lincoln-9382540?page=1#childhood - Childhood
  • http://www.biography.com/people/abraham-lincoln-9382540?page=1#law-career - Law Career
  • http://www.biography.com/people/abraham-lincoln-9382540?page=2#entering-politics - Entering Politics
  • http://www.biography.com/people/abraham-lincoln-9382540?page=3#elected-president - Elected President
  • http://www.biography.com/people/abraham-lincoln-9382540?page=4#civil-war - Civil War
  • http://www.biography.com/people/abraham-lincoln-9382540?page=4#assassination - Assassination




Replies:
Posted By: Centrix Vigilis
Date Posted: 15-Jan-2013 at 08:58
I am an affcinado of SB Oates, With Malice Toward None: A Life of Abraham Lincoln  and  Carl Sandburg's Abraham Lincoln: The War Years. They still sum him up for me.

-------------
"Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence"

S. T. Friedman


Pilger's law: 'If it's been officially denied, then it's probably true'



Posted By: Cryptic
Date Posted: 15-Jan-2013 at 15:01
I am a Lincoln fan, but I need to do some more reading.  Some of the recent material (pro Confederate sources) that I have read suggest that Lincoln was far more interested in political dominance than Emancipation.  
 
In either case, he handled the American Civil War extremely well.  Civil rights violations, though noted, were mild compared to the standard of the day. The peace terms were not crushing (Versailles). 
 
Lincoln was also eventually able to appoint commanders who developed strategies that negated the superior tactical abilities of the Confederates and turned the war into a war of industrialization and supply where tactical abilties were not that important.  Those factors, and a gradual increase in Federal tactical abilities were a winning combination.  


Posted By: Azita
Date Posted: 15-Jan-2013 at 15:21
I have only a basic knowledge of Lincoln and the ACW.

On another forum i used to vist there was a Texan that used to say that Lincoln was the worst killer of Americans in  History. Presiding over  the death of 500,000 of his fellow countrymen.

As such he was the very worst President the USA has ever had.

Again i have no deep understanding of this history, i just wonderd what members thought of this attitude.

Azita


Posted By: Centrix Vigilis
Date Posted: 15-Jan-2013 at 16:48
Sounds like a southern 'lost causer' type to me. iow. an individual who today would still support the cessation of the southern and border states and their causes and justifications leading up to and including the CW.
 
See: http://encyclopediavirginia.org/Lost_Cause_The - http://encyclopediavirginia.org/Lost_Cause_The


-------------
"Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence"

S. T. Friedman


Pilger's law: 'If it's been officially denied, then it's probably true'



Posted By: Azita
Date Posted: 16-Jan-2013 at 07:05
Oh! yes he is very much that.

But can i again ask, as Lincoln presided over 500,000 Americans deaths, the most of any president, should he be considered "great"
It was after all a "Good" thing for the Colony's to  "secede" from Britain, why could the southern states not secede from the Union?




Posted By: Centrix Vigilis
Date Posted: 16-Jan-2013 at 09:36
Originally posted by Azita

Oh! yes he is very much that.

But can i again ask, as Lincoln presided over 500,000 Americans deaths, the most of any president, should he be considered "great"
It was after all a "Good" thing for the Colony's to  "secede" from Britain, why could the southern states not secede from the Union?


 
 
Ya can ask anything ya like.
 
Reference the figures you cite. A better figure is closer to 775,000+; depends on your sources.
This includes combat deaths, wounded and from the notoriously ill defined 'other' category. Which usually includes disease, imprisonment and deaths as a result of medical efforts to save the wounded.
 
But that's another thread.
 
He is recognized as great for essential the same reason as his predecessor Washington. In GW's case; the military leader who fought for and helped to establish the nation and it's eventual formation of democtatic government in the form of a republican state. And who refused to become a tyrant.
 
With Mr. Lincoln...it's because of his efforts to preserve a union, that while flawed in certain respects, ntl, would eventually see the eradication of slavery. And that had yet to reach it's point of universal recognized status, as a world class power and national state.
 
Both probably would have occurred eventually for other reasons and personages and efforts.
 
But Lincoln ensured it. Through his refusal to allow a separation of the nation into two states. By recognizing that the historical and cultural developement sum, of the two, even with differences, was greater then the indvidual integers.


-------------
"Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence"

S. T. Friedman


Pilger's law: 'If it's been officially denied, then it's probably true'



Posted By: Salah ad-Din
Date Posted: 17-Jan-2013 at 01:09
I vote 'Genius'.
 
Funny that azita thinks Lincoln was the worst president, when in fact he saved the US for all intents and purposes.
 
Oh wait, that's why azita thinks he was the worst president, heh.


Posted By: Azita
Date Posted: 17-Jan-2013 at 04:57
Originally posted by Salah ad-Din

Funny that azita thinks Lincoln was the worst president, when in fact he saved the US for all intents and purposes.
 
Oh wait, that's why azita thinks he was the worst president, heh.


Oh! how lovely another personal attack.

If you had the ability to read what i put, you would see i was pursuing a line of thought presented by SOMEONE ELSE on another forum.
You will see from the poll, that no one voted he was weak, if as you accuse, i am so anti us and anything to do with it, in this case Lincoln, would i not have voted so?

I had not even mentioned my own personal standpoint ( which is uninformed and indifferent) I only ask question. Does that cause you so much distress?


Posted By: Centrix Vigilis
Date Posted: 17-Jan-2013 at 10:17
Originally posted by Salah ad-Din

I vote 'Genius'.
 
Funny that azita thinks Lincoln was the worst president, when in fact he saved the US for all intents and purposes.
 
Oh wait, that's why azita thinks he was the worst president, heh.
 
 
I concur with the first part...I do too.
 
As for the second?
 
Very naughty Salah. Sit on the bench for 7. Suspended.
 
I recently reminded the forum elsewhere that trolling which can lead to flame wars is a no-no.
 
And so it will be dealt with.
 
Azita I've advised the forum and that includes you....You view a violation you take it PM as per the Coc.
You know this.
 
Do not respond and encourage others to then violate. You are now warned.
========================================================
 
PS. because if you do... do it again... I will presume you don't give a damn about the Coc and guidence and directives issued by staff. Which then indicates your lack of respect for their authority and the Admin-owner who invested it in them. And that's another no-no. And you also will then be on the bench. Do not bother to comment on that other then PM. It will be considered trolling.
 
End of discussion. Period.
 
CV


-------------
"Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence"

S. T. Friedman


Pilger's law: 'If it's been officially denied, then it's probably true'



Posted By: Cryptic
Date Posted: 17-Jan-2013 at 17:15
Originally posted by Centrix Vigilis

A better figure is closer to 775,000+; depends on your sources.
This includes combat deaths, wounded and from the notoriously ill defined 'other' category. Which usually includes disease, imprisonment and deaths as a result of medical efforts to save the wounded.
 
 
I think a large portion of the gap from the traditional 500,000 to the census extrapolated 775,000 are deaths from irregular warfare that swept Missouri, Arkansas, Kentucky, West Virginia and Tennessee. I have also read of bandit groups as far north as Iowa and Pennsylvania.
 
Though most civil war history books focus on the main force combatants, there was also alot of very nasty and very confusing (family based factions, side switching, guerillas / counter insurgency units turning bandit) small unit warfare.  Most of this was up close and very personal with the deaths never being recorded. 


Posted By: Centrix Vigilis
Date Posted: 17-Jan-2013 at 18:35
Originally posted by Cryptic

Originally posted by Centrix Vigilis

A better figure is closer to 775,000+; depends on your sources.
This includes combat deaths, wounded and from the notoriously ill defined 'other' category. Which usually includes disease, imprisonment and deaths as a result of medical efforts to save the wounded.
 
 
I think a large portion of the gap from the traditional 500,000 to the census extrapolated 775,000 are deaths from irregular warfare that swept Missouri, Arkansas, Kentucky, West Virginia and Tennessee. I have also read of bandit groups as far north as Iowa and Pennsylvania.
 
Though most civil war history books focus on the main force combatants, there was also alot of very nasty and very confusing (family based factions, side switching, guerillas / counter insurgency units turning bandit) small unit warfare.  Most of this was up close and very personal with the deaths never being recorded. 
 
Quite accurate Cryptic....and thanks for reminding me. I had a quasi source on that once...but now seem to have lost it. Ntl..here's a link that demonstrates the veracity of your point.
 
http://www.bryansbush.com/hub.php?page=articles&layer=a0807 - http://www.bryansbush.com/hub.php?page=articles&layer=a0807
 
 
 


-------------
"Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence"

S. T. Friedman


Pilger's law: 'If it's been officially denied, then it's probably true'



Posted By: Don Quixote
Date Posted: 18-Jan-2013 at 03:29
I have a great respect for Lincoln, both as a politician and as a person.

-------------


Posted By: Cryptic
Date Posted: 18-Jan-2013 at 14:49
Originally posted by Centrix Vigilis

Quite accurate Cryptic....and thanks for reminding me. I had a quasi source on that once...but now seem to have lost it. Ntl..here's a link that demonstrates the veracity of your point.
 
Thanks for the compliment.  Not only did irregular warfare develop, but there seems to be several factors that fed and increased it:
 
-Reinforcements:  Tens of thousands of armed and desperate men deserted from confederate and union armies every year.  A certain number of these did not return home, but instead drifted into and reinforced bandit, guerilla, or militia groups. 
 
-Civilians from the middle, caught in the middle: Most of the irregular warfare was in border states. Local civilians being harmed were often of mixed loyalties and viewed with suspiscion both sides. Thus, senior commanders on both side had less incentive to control the various groups of guerillas, militias, bandits etc.   In the end, civilians deaths in Missouri, Kentucky, WV or eastern Tennessee did not generate the same level of outrage that civilian deaths amongst the clearly loyal in Boston or Charleston would have.
 
 
 
 
 
 


Posted By: Delenda est Roma
Date Posted: 19-Apr-2013 at 23:41
Originally posted by Centrix Vigilis




Originally posted by Salah ad-Din



I vote 'Genius'.
 
Funny that azita thinks Lincoln was the worst president, when in fact he saved the US for all intents and purposes.
 
Oh wait, that's why azita thinks he was the worst president, heh.

 
 
I concur with the first part...I do too.
 
As for the second?
 
Very naughty Salah. Sit on the bench for 7. Suspended.
 
I recently reminded the forum elsewhere that trolling which can lead to flame wars is a no-no.
 
And so it will be dealt with.
 
Azita I've advised the forum and that includes you....You view a violation you take it PM as per the Coc.
You know this.
 
Do not respond and encourage others to then violate. You are now warned.
========================================================
 
PS. because if you do... do it again... I will presume you don't give a damn about the Coc and guidence and directives issued by staff. Which then indicates your lack of respect for their authority and the Admin-owner who invested it in them. And that's another no-no. And you also will then be on the bench. Do not bother to comment on that other then PM. It will be considered trolling.
 
End of discussion. Period.
 
CV




Stuff like this discourages me from using this forum.

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Posted By: Delenda est Roma
Date Posted: 19-Apr-2013 at 23:42
Originally posted by Azita

Oh! yes he is very much that.But can i again ask, as Lincoln presided over 500,000 Americans deaths, the most of any president, should he be considered "great"It was after all a "Good" thing for the Colony's to  "secede" from Britain, why could the southern states not secede from the Union?



Didn't we experience more in WW II. So by that logic Roosevelt is terrible?

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Posted By: Centrix Vigilis
Date Posted: 20-Apr-2013 at 07:05
Originally posted by Delenda est Roma

Originally posted by Centrix Vigilis




Originally posted by Salah ad-Din



I vote 'Genius'.
 
Funny that azita thinks Lincoln was the worst president, when in fact he saved the US for all intents and purposes.
 
Oh wait, that's why azita thinks he was the worst president, heh.

 
 
I concur with the first part...I do too.
 
As for the second?
 
Very naughty Salah. Sit on the bench for 7. Suspended.
 
I recently reminded the forum elsewhere that trolling which can lead to flame wars is a no-no.
 
And so it will be dealt with.
 
Azita I've advised the forum and that includes you....You view a violation you take it PM as per the Coc.
You know this.
 
Do not respond and encourage others to then violate. You are now warned.
========================================================
 
PS. because if you do... do it again... I will presume you don't give a damn about the Coc and guidance and directives issued by staff. Which then indicates your lack of respect for their authority and the Admin-owner who invested it in them. And that's another no-no. And you also will then be on the bench. Do not bother to comment on that other then PM. It will be considered trolling.
 
End of discussion. Period.
 
CV




Stuff like this discourages me from using this forum.



Don't matter much whether it discourages ya or not. Fact is it don't matter at all. Cuz one things for sure you or any other member will not challenge my decision making authority or the manner in which I exercise it. Only the owner can do that. Done publicly that's also a no no as per the Coc. Also well known.


As such ya now officially warned. Cuz ya knew it and shot your mouth off anyway.

So live with it or get gone and don't come back.

-------------
"Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence"

S. T. Friedman


Pilger's law: 'If it's been officially denied, then it's probably true'



Posted By: Delenda est Roma
Date Posted: 20-Apr-2013 at 08:46
A warning for criticizing you? Ha. I can question you decisions or criticize them. Not allowing that is simply repression. Thanks to your heavy handed ness I don't think I'll be back.

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Posted By: Centrix Vigilis
Date Posted: 20-Apr-2013 at 09:11
Criticising is done in a prescribed manner. As per the Coc.
You refuse to do it. Thereby revealing your unqualified arrogance and repetitious disrespect for staff authority.

We've been over this ground before. This time the bell wont save you...as your repetitive disregard for Staff moderator actions, disrespect for their authority and failure to abide by the Coc sends you are your way.

Suspended.

Indefinite.

-------------
"Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence"

S. T. Friedman


Pilger's law: 'If it's been officially denied, then it's probably true'



Posted By: medenaywe
Date Posted: 20-Apr-2013 at 11:29
Lincoln was a sixteenth president of US.He was assassinated 5 days after South army general Robert.E Lee
had surrendered to general Grant in 1865.Why?!?Who did lead conspiracy plot?


Posted By: red clay
Date Posted: 20-Apr-2013 at 11:57
Originally posted by medenaywe

Lincoln was a sixteenth president of US.He was assassinated 5 days after South army general Robert.E Lee
had surrendered to general Grant in 1865.Why?!?Who did lead conspiracy plot?
 
 
Med. there have been several hundred books written on this subject.  Theories about who was behind it run from Jefferson Davis, to Sec. of War, Stanton. 
There are also theories that while Booth was the public face, and the primary actor, there were many others involved, some were Union officers.
 
 
 


-------------
"Arguing with someone who hates you or your ideas, is like playing chess with a pigeon. No matter what move you make, your opponent will walk all over the board and scramble the pieces".
Unknown.


Posted By: medenaywe
Date Posted: 20-Apr-2013 at 12:04
There were no structural changes inside States&Constitution after it?Stuff changes?Political parties leaders
stayed as they had been before?No "witch hunts"?


Posted By: red clay
Date Posted: 20-Apr-2013 at 13:02
Nope!  The war was over, the South was in ruins.  People were war weary.  They were satisfied that the crime was committed by Southern sympathisers.  The government had the "criminals" and promptly hung them.  Forget the fact that there wasn't one among them smart enough to have planned the assasination.
 


-------------
"Arguing with someone who hates you or your ideas, is like playing chess with a pigeon. No matter what move you make, your opponent will walk all over the board and scramble the pieces".
Unknown.


Posted By: Centrix Vigilis
Date Posted: 20-Apr-2013 at 13:33
No fan of Oreilly as a historian; he ntl does a decent job on the ct's in his book. Course that's probably because of his ghost and the fact that stuff has been done to death by much better then him.

That's 'Killing Lincoln' Meden by Bill Oreilly.

-------------
"Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence"

S. T. Friedman


Pilger's law: 'If it's been officially denied, then it's probably true'



Posted By: red clay
Date Posted: 21-Apr-2013 at 12:51
Back in the day, there was a wonderfully old and cluttered book shop in Philly, called "Leary's".  Leary's had been around since before the Civil War.  It was 5 floors of old books, magazines etc.
 
In the early 70's 2 guys who were doing research on the assassination found a series of mags from 1864 to 1865.  I don't recall which mag. possibly "Harper's".
One of them noticed handwritten numbers in the margins of one of the mags.  They started looking at the others and found the same in those. 
What they supposedly had found were a series of communications in code.  These messages were allegedly from Sec. of War Stanton to one or more of the conspirators.
 
The messages were examined by experts and were found to be authentic as far as ink etc.  What actually happened to them I don't know.
 
BTW-  Leary's closed in the mid 80s.  It was such a sad event that folks gathered there for a kind of "funeral".
 
 


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"Arguing with someone who hates you or your ideas, is like playing chess with a pigeon. No matter what move you make, your opponent will walk all over the board and scramble the pieces".
Unknown.


Posted By: Mountain Man
Date Posted: 21-Apr-2013 at 17:10
I voted him "great" rather than genius because as a person he had his flaws, as do all such men, and because I believe the Civil War to have been largely unnecessary and brought about by a clear violation of the principle of State's Rights.

Slavery was never the central issue, and would have died a natural death within a decade due to the rising tide of the Industrial Revolution which was rapidly making manual labor obsolete.

Had Lincoln truly been a "genius", then I believe he could have resolved the issues without a long, costly and incredibly bloody war.


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Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?


Posted By: TheAlaniDragonRising
Date Posted: 07-Jun-2013 at 23:09

New Lincoln math pages suggest more education

Two math-notebook pages recently authenticated as belonging to Abraham Lincoln suggest the 16th president, who was known to downplay his formal education, may have spent more time in school than usually thought.

And the Illinois State University math professors behind the discovery say the work shows Lincoln was no slouch, either.

Math professors Nerida Ellerton and Ken Clements said Friday at the university in Normal that they'd recently confirmed that the two pages were part of a previously known math notebook from Lincoln's childhood. It was found in the archives of Houghton Library at Harvard University, where it remains.

The book, known as a cyphering book in Lincoln's day, is a sort math workbook in which Lincoln wrote math problems and their answers. It's the oldest known Lincoln manuscript.

Based on the difficulty of the problems involved and dates on some of the pages — 1824 and, on the recently authenticated pages, 1826, when Lincoln was 17 — Lincoln likely worked in the book intermittently over several calendar years while his family lived in Indiana, the married professors said. They think he could have started as early as the age of 10 and believe his work happened while he was in school.

"Most people say he went to school for anything between three months and nine months" over the course of his life, Clements said. "We think he went to school (up to) two years."

And very little of the work is wrong, he added.

"He made very few errors, and he always knew what he was trying to do," Clements added. "We've studied thousands of these cyphering books. You don't always get the feeling that 'this guy knew what he was doing.'"

The professors' find suggests Lincoln may have gone to school over as many as three to five winters, according to historian Daniel Stowell, director of the Papers of Abraham Lincoln project at the Abraham Lincoln Presidential Library in Springfield. The library owns one previously identified page of the book.

"They are arguing with some merit that a cyphering book would have been created in a school setting," Stowell said. "It does at least open the possibility that he may have had more formal schooling than originally thought. Not a whole lot more, but still more."

The pages — attached as a single leaf — include word problems that are the equivalent of roughly eighth-grade modern work, Clements said.

"If 100 dollars in one year gain 3½ dollars interest, what sum will gain $38.50 cents in one year and a quarter?" one reads.

Any student doing such work in the 1820s would have been more advanced than most on the frontier in Indiana, Clements said.

"If you got to that stage, you'd sort of done well," he said.

Lincoln is known to have later studied trigonometry and geometry on his own.

The newly authenticated pages have been in the Harvard library's archives since 1954. They were known as Lincoln documents, but their origin wasn't known, the professors said. The two looked at the documents as they researched a book they've written on math books from the period.

A letter from former Lincoln law partner William Herndon from 1875 that accompanied the papers, describing them, made the authentication relatively straightforward, Clements said.

Lincoln's stepmother, Sarah Bush Lincoln, gave the cyphering book to Herndon after Lincoln's death, and Herndon then gave them to other people, Stowell said.

http://www.newsdaily.com/article/ee06783470b8d3d3b5425972c7ba5fd8/new-lincoln-math-pages-suggest-more-education - http://www.newsdaily.com/article/ee06783470b8d3d3b5425972c7ba5fd8/new-lincoln-math-pages-suggest-more-education



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What a handsome figure of a dragon. No wonder I fall madly in love with the Alani Dragon now, the avatar, it's a gorgeous dragon picture.


Posted By: Stefany
Date Posted: 24-Feb-2014 at 10:04
Originally posted by Centrix Vigilis

I am an affcinado of SB Oates, With Malice Toward None: A Life of Abraham Lincoln  and  Carl Sandburg's Abraham Lincoln: The War Years. They still sum him up for me.


David Donald's "Lincoln" is an awesome book too.


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http://dyulgerova.info - My website
http://studyingthepast.com - My history website
"Duty is the sublimest word in our language." - Robert E. Lee


Posted By: Stefany
Date Posted: 24-Feb-2014 at 10:07
Originally posted by Mountain Man

I voted him "great" rather than genius because as a person he had his flaws, as do all such men, and because I believe the Civil War to have been largely unnecessary and brought about by a clear violation of the principle of State's Rights.

Slavery was never the central issue, and would have died a natural death within a decade due to the rising tide of the Industrial Revolution which was rapidly making manual labor obsolete.

Had Lincoln truly been a "genius", then I believe he could have resolved the issues without a long, costly and incredibly bloody war.

Of course, given the fact that the North had slaves and that even Grant had slaves proves that the war was waged for anything but slavery.


-------------
http://dyulgerova.info - My website
http://studyingthepast.com - My history website
"Duty is the sublimest word in our language." - Robert E. Lee


Posted By: Stefany
Date Posted: 24-Feb-2014 at 10:56
Originally posted by red clay

Originally posted by medenaywe

Lincoln was a sixteenth president of US.He was assassinated 5 days after South army general Robert.E Lee
had surrendered to general Grant in 1865.Why?!?Who did lead conspiracy plot?
 
 
Med. there have been several hundred books written on this subject.  Theories about who was behind it run from Jefferson Davis, to Sec. of War, Stanton. 
There are also theories that while Booth was the public face, and the primary actor, there were many others involved, some were Union officers.
 
 
 

There is even a theory that Grant was involved in Lincoln's assassination. Not far from the truth in my opinion.


-------------
http://dyulgerova.info - My website
http://studyingthepast.com - My history website
"Duty is the sublimest word in our language." - Robert E. Lee


Posted By: Windemere
Date Posted: 24-Feb-2014 at 11:10
The main reason for the Civil War was to hold the Union together, it wasn't to eliminate slavery. However, Lincoln did use the war as a way of putting an end to slavery.

Slavery existed in all the American colonies, North & South, back in colonial times. It never was a major economic force in the North, though. Most northern farms were small, and were operated by individual families. Slavery was an important economic force in the South, where large plantations (especially cotton & tobacco) were dependent upon slave labor. Slavery became unpopular in the north in the period leading up to the Revolutionary War, and it was also discouraged by the British government. In the early 1800s, the further importation of slaves was ended, although the internal slave-trade continued. But in the years after the Revolutionary War, the northern states gradually passed laws ending slavery within their individual states, and by the mid-1800s. slavery was ended throughout the northern U.S.A.

Ulysses Grant was not really much of a slave-owner, although his wife apparently owned some slaves given her by her father. The only evidence of Grant himself being a slave-owner is a document he signed freeing a slave. His public stance was anti-slavery.

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Windemere


Posted By: TheAlaniDragonRising
Date Posted: 24-Feb-2014 at 11:34
Originally posted by Stefany

Originally posted by red clay

Originally posted by medenaywe

Lincoln was a sixteenth president of US.He was assassinated 5 days after South army general Robert.E Lee
had surrendered to general Grant in 1865.Why?!?Who did lead conspiracy plot?
 
 
Med. there have been several hundred books written on this subject.  Theories about who was behind it run from Jefferson Davis, to Sec. of War, Stanton. 
There are also theories that while Booth was the public face, and the primary actor, there were many others involved, some were Union officers.
 
 
 

There is even a theory that Grant was involved in Lincoln's assassination. Not far from the truth in my opinion.
Only as far as being kind of indirectly involved through being kept away by Edwin Stanton.

-------------
What a handsome figure of a dragon. No wonder I fall madly in love with the Alani Dragon now, the avatar, it's a gorgeous dragon picture.


Posted By: Stefany
Date Posted: 24-Feb-2014 at 16:15
Originally posted by Windemere

The main reason for the Civil War was to hold the Union together, it wasn't to eliminate slavery. However, Lincoln did use the war as a way of putting an end to slavery.

Slavery existed in all the American colonies, North & South, back in colonial times. It never was a major economic force in the North, though. Most northern farms were small, and were operated by individual families. Slavery was an important economic force in the South, where large plantations (especially cotton & tobacco) were dependent upon slave labor. Slavery became unpopular in the north in the period leading up to the Revolutionary War, and it was also discouraged by the British government. In the early 1800s, the further importation of slaves was ended, although the internal slave-trade continued. But in the years after the Revolutionary War, the northern states gradually passed laws ending slavery within their individual states, and by the mid-1800s. slavery was ended throughout the northern U.S.A.


I agree with you generally, but during the war Kentucky, Missouri and Maryland were slave-holding states within the Union. Lincoln's emancipation proclamation liberated the slaves in the South - if you were a slave within the Union, oh well that was too damn bad.



Ulysses Grant was not really much of a slave-owner, although his wife apparently owned some slaves given her by her father. The only evidence of Grant himself being a slave-owner is a document he signed freeing a slave. His public stance was anti-slavery.

His wife or him, doesn't matter. If Grant was really so anti-slavery he would have never allowed slaves in his house. During these times, the husbands were masters of the households.


-------------
http://dyulgerova.info - My website
http://studyingthepast.com - My history website
"Duty is the sublimest word in our language." - Robert E. Lee


Posted By: Stefany
Date Posted: 24-Feb-2014 at 16:16

Only as far as being kind of indirectly involved through being kept away by Edwin Stanton.

Could you please elaborate?


-------------
http://dyulgerova.info - My website
http://studyingthepast.com - My history website
"Duty is the sublimest word in our language." - Robert E. Lee


Posted By: red clay
Date Posted: 24-Feb-2014 at 19:07
Grant had been invited to join Lincoln at Ford's.  Grant traveled with an entourage of officers.  Had he been there it was unlikely that Booth would have been able to get to Lincoln.  It's alleged that Stanton drew Grant away with another engagement.

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"Arguing with someone who hates you or your ideas, is like playing chess with a pigeon. No matter what move you make, your opponent will walk all over the board and scramble the pieces".
Unknown.


Posted By: opuslola
Date Posted: 26-Feb-2014 at 20:01
Originally posted by red clay

Grant had been invited to join Lincoln at Ford's.  Grant traveled with an entourage of officers.  Had he been there it was unlikely that Booth would have been able to get to Lincoln.  It's alleged that Stanton drew Grant away with another engagement.


Very interesting Red! I have never heard of this. Just what are your sources? They could be interesting also?

Besides, numerous Slave Holders in the South were really Yankees! Their great plantations were held in Louisiana, and other places, while these English and Yankee intruders had their fine homes well from the field hands! Please think of the Mississippi river cities that lived upon high bluffs, across the Mississippi river from Arkansas and Louisiana.

In certain areas of the slave holding South some of these powerful men, received dispensations which allowed them to continue to master the slaves, well into the War of Northern Aggression.

It is oft not mentioned that even in the Deep South, some counties actually succeeded from the Southern Confederacy!

In the area of N. Mississippi where my family resided during this great war, it was even described by Union Officers as a land of desolation!

Ron

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http://www.quotationspage.com/subjects/history/


Posted By: red clay
Date Posted: 26-Feb-2014 at 22:01
I don't recall a specific source. It's in several books written about the 48 hours immed. after he was shot.  I should have said it's alleged.  Stanton is often looked at as having something to do with the conspiracy.
 
 


-------------
"Arguing with someone who hates you or your ideas, is like playing chess with a pigeon. No matter what move you make, your opponent will walk all over the board and scramble the pieces".
Unknown.


Posted By: Stefany
Date Posted: 05-Mar-2014 at 16:41
Originally posted by opuslola

Originally posted by red clay

Grant had been invited to join Lincoln at Ford's.  Grant traveled with an entourage of officers.  Had he been there it was unlikely that Booth would have been able to get to Lincoln.  It's alleged that Stanton drew Grant away with another engagement.


Very interesting Red! I have never heard of this. Just what are your sources? They could be interesting also?

Besides, numerous Slave Holders in the South were really Yankees! Their great plantations were held in Louisiana, and other places, while these English and Yankee intruders had their fine homes well from the field hands! Please think of the Mississippi river cities that lived upon high bluffs, across the Mississippi river from Arkansas and Louisiana.

In certain areas of the slave holding South some of these powerful men, received dispensations which allowed them to continue to master the slaves, well into the War of Northern Aggression.

It is oft not mentioned that even in the Deep South, some counties actually succeeded from the Southern Confederacy!

In the area of N. Mississippi where my family resided during this great war, it was even described by Union Officers as a land of desolation!

Ron

Interesting information, thank you. 

About Grant - I know Grant cancelled at the last minute the thing with the theater because Mrs. Grant hated Mrs. Lincoln.


-------------
http://dyulgerova.info - My website
http://studyingthepast.com - My history website
"Duty is the sublimest word in our language." - Robert E. Lee


Posted By: Stefany
Date Posted: 06-Mar-2014 at 02:38
Originally posted by red clay

Originally posted by medenaywe

Lincoln was a sixteenth president of US.He was assassinated 5 days after South army general Robert.E Lee
had surrendered to general Grant in 1865.Why?!?Who did lead conspiracy plot?
 
 
Med. there have been several hundred books written on this subject.  Theories about who was behind it run from Jefferson Davis, to Sec. of War, Stanton. 
There are also theories that while Booth was the public face, and the primary actor, there were many others involved, some were Union officers.
 
 
 

Why would Stanton be suspect? He wanted to become a President too  ? :P 


-------------
http://dyulgerova.info - My website
http://studyingthepast.com - My history website
"Duty is the sublimest word in our language." - Robert E. Lee


Posted By: Mikestone8
Date Posted: 08-Mar-2014 at 04:45
Don't see quite what the casualty list has to do with it, unless there is evidence that someone else could have won the war more cheaply.

No Republican President would have acquiesced in secession, nor probably most Democratic ones. Even Buchanan refused to surrender Fort Sumter, so war was pretty certain at some point, whoever was POTUS. When it came it was supported by Congress from beginning to end, a pro-war Congress was elected in 1862, and Lincoln himself re-elected by a solid margin in 1864. Significantly, the Democrats dared not nominate an anti-war candidate that year.

So Lincoln was doing what the people's representatives wished him to do,, and afaics at least there is no reason to think anyone else could have done so at lesser cost.

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Mike Stone, Peterborough, England.

Always drink upriver from the herd.


Posted By: opuslola
Date Posted: 08-Mar-2014 at 22:39
Mike Stone, etc.

You wrote above about the votes in congress! Just what Southern State representatives voted for these causes?

Regards,
Ron

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http://www.quotationspage.com/subjects/history/


Posted By: Mikestone8
Date Posted: 11-Mar-2014 at 04:30
Originally posted by opuslola

Mike Stone, etc.

You wrote above about the votes in congress! Just what Southern State representatives voted for these causes?


Iirc Senator Andrew Johnson of Tennessee did. I'm less sure about the HoR.

I agree that not many Southerners took part in the votes, but that was a consequence of their own decision to walk out. Both houses still had a quorum, so the votes were perfectly in order.

And after all, depending on one's views as to the legality of secession, the Confederates were either rebels or foreigners. In neither case were they entitled to a voice in the government whilst denying its authority.

-------------
Mike Stone, Peterborough, England.

Always drink upriver from the herd.


Posted By: red clay
Date Posted: 22-May-2014 at 16:04
Originally posted by Stefany

Originally posted by red clay

Originally posted by medenaywe

Lincoln was a sixteenth president of US.He was assassinated 5 days after South army general Robert.E Lee
had surrendered to general Grant in 1865.Why?!?Who did lead conspiracy plot?
 
 
Med. there have been several hundred books written on this subject.  Theories about who was behind it run from Jefferson Davis, to Sec. of War, Stanton. 
There are also theories that while Booth was the public face, and the primary actor, there were many others involved, some were Union officers.
 
 
 

Why would Stanton be suspect? He wanted to become a President too  ? :P 
 
 
 
I think the fact that the conspiracy also targeted all in the line of succession up to Stanton, raised suspicions.
 
 
 
 


-------------
"Arguing with someone who hates you or your ideas, is like playing chess with a pigeon. No matter what move you make, your opponent will walk all over the board and scramble the pieces".
Unknown.



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