Print Page | Close Window

Bears in Britain

Printed From: History Community ~ All Empires
Category: General History
Forum Name: Natural History
Forum Discription: History viewed through ecology, geology, paleoclimatology, paleontology & zoology to assist in understanding earth's history
URL: http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=31377
Printed Date: 20-Apr-2024 at 00:44
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 9.56a - http://www.webwizforums.com


Topic: Bears in Britain
Posted By: Sidney
Subject: Bears in Britain
Date Posted: 15-Mar-2012 at 18:01
When did the bear become extinct in Britain? I have read (but without any sources given) that the Romans preferred to use Scottish bears as entertainment in the Colosseum at Rome, because they were fiercer. Also that bears were still in Ireland until the 10th century.

Are there any myths of the Irish/British/Scottish that refer to bears? Or records of bear encounters the older histories and chronicles?

These questions were prompted by seeing a number of Pictish stones with bears carved onto them. These could be from cultural memories, or imported stories (from the Vikings?), but I wonder.

Found on a stone slab on a floor in a wheelhouse on Scatness, Shetland Isles. Dated 600-800 AD

Image of the Dorsten Stone (a stone cross) from St.Vigeans, Angus, Scotland. Dated to about 850 AD

Image from a grave stone from Meigle, Strathmore, Scotland. Dated to the 9th Century.





Replies:
Posted By: Sidney
Date Posted: 15-Mar-2012 at 18:06
Can't get the final image to load, so look here;
http://canmore.rcahms.gov.uk/en/details/397644/ - http://canmore.rcahms.gov.uk/en/details/397644/


Posted By: Centrix Vigilis
Date Posted: 15-Mar-2012 at 19:50
Last word I had was around 500AD. Common eurasian brown bear that is.
 
http://web.archive.org/web/20071223002029/http://www.toothandclaw.org.uk/species.asp - http://web.archive.org/web/20071223002029/http://www.toothandclaw.org.uk/species.asp
 
You might also peruse.. The History of British Mammals by Derel Yalden.
 
AS for myths.... ole Arthur was a bear if ya buy the translation of his name as Arth.
 
Here is a decent link for bear mythology.  http://socyberty.com/folklore/the-bear-in-myth-mythology-and-folklore-2/ - http://socyberty.com/folklore/the-bear-in-myth-mythology-and-folklore-2/
 
 


-------------
"Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence"

S. T. Friedman


Pilger's law: 'If it's been officially denied, then it's probably true'



Posted By: Sidney
Date Posted: 17-Mar-2012 at 13:21
Hang on! Didn't Rupert wear yellow tartan??

[/IMG]


Posted By: Sidney
Date Posted: 17-Mar-2012 at 13:27
Thanks CV. Arthur is meant to mean the bear, but no mythical bears associated with him. There is a king in the 6th Century called Cuneglas who is called by the writer Gildas a bear and the charioteer of the bear's fortress, but thats all I can find from early material.

There seems to be a decided lack of bear mythology relating to the British Isles. Strange if the brown bear survived for so long.


Posted By: Toltec
Date Posted: 18-Mar-2012 at 03:07
Winnie the Pooh and Paddington bear still live in Britain

-------------
Stupidity got us into this mess, why can't it get us out?

http://historyplanet.wordpress.com - History Planet Website
<br /


Posted By: Centrix Vigilis
Date Posted: 18-Mar-2012 at 03:12
True. But I doubt either are from the species Ursus arctos arctos.

-------------
"Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence"

S. T. Friedman


Pilger's law: 'If it's been officially denied, then it's probably true'



Posted By: Sidney
Date Posted: 18-Mar-2012 at 12:08
HaHa. Rupert, being white, is a Polar Bear; Paddington came from darkest Peru, so is a Spectacled Bear (although, being a uniform colour, he's melanistic); Winnie got his name from a Canadian Bear in London Zoo, but as his physique is a teddy bear I suppose he's the only wild (?) Brown Bear in Britain.


Posted By: red clay
Date Posted: 18-Mar-2012 at 14:32
Are you positive that the bear is no longer in Britain?  Not that I have any knowledge of any sightings there.  A young male bear can have a territory from 50 to 100 sq. miles.  They mostly move at night.  I've had 2 sightings here in SJ.  Most folks who live in this area are completely unaware.  Usually the sightings are made by police doing their overnight patrols and are usually not made public.
 
 


-------------
"Arguing with someone who hates you or your ideas, is like playing chess with a pigeon. No matter what move you make, your opponent will walk all over the board and scramble the pieces".
Unknown.


Posted By: Chookie
Date Posted: 18-Mar-2012 at 16:17
Originally posted by red clay

Are you positive that the bear is no longer in Britain?  Not that I have any knowledge of any sightings there.  A young male bear can have a territory from 50 to 100 sq. miles.  They mostly move at night.  I've had 2 sightings here in SJ.  Most folks who live in this area are completely unaware.  Usually the sightings are made by police doing their overnight patrols and are usually not made public.

Yes, we're positive. There are no wild bears roaming around the British countryside not even in the wildest parts.

Britain is utterly bearless....


-------------
For money you did what guns could not do.........


Posted By: okamido
Date Posted: 18-Mar-2012 at 17:17
Originally posted by Chookie

Originally posted by red clay

Are you positive that the bear is no longer in Britain?  Not that I have any knowledge of any sightings there.  A young male bear can have a territory from 50 to 100 sq. miles.  They mostly move at night.  I've had 2 sightings here in SJ.  Most folks who live in this area are completely unaware.  Usually the sightings are made by police doing their overnight patrols and are usually not made public.

Yes, we're positive. There are no wild bears roaming around the British countryside not even in the wildest parts.

Britain is utterly bearless....
There has been some talk about reintroducing the brown bear into Scotland, using the Eurasian Brown bear as a template. How would you like a breeding population of around 200 of these guys let lose? Mind you, the male can stand 8+ feet tall and weigh 1,000 lbs.


-------------


Posted By: TheAlaniDragonRising
Date Posted: 18-Mar-2012 at 18:47
Originally posted by Chookie

Originally posted by red clay

Are you positive that the bear is no longer in Britain?  Not that I have any knowledge of any sightings there.  A young male bear can have a territory from 50 to 100 sq. miles.  They mostly move at night.  I've had 2 sightings here in SJ.  Most folks who live in this area are completely unaware.  Usually the sightings are made by police doing their overnight patrols and are usually not made public.

Yes, we're positive. There are no wild bears roaming around the British countryside not even in the wildest parts.

Britain is utterly bearless....
None since Hercules, right, Chookie, but then the experience nearly killed him until he was recaptured.

-------------
What a handsome figure of a dragon. No wonder I fall madly in love with the Alani Dragon now, the avatar, it's a gorgeous dragon picture.


Posted By: Sidney
Date Posted: 18-Mar-2012 at 20:16
Britain's got the Beast of Bodmin and the Loch Ness monster, but no bears in the woods.


Posted By: Sidney
Date Posted: 19-Mar-2012 at 08:07
I found a reference to British bears in Roman literature.

Martial in his work “Liber Spectaculorum” which was finished about 81 AD, contains comments on the shows performed at the newly opened Colosseum in Rome. These shows included the re-enactment of mythic stories, gladiatorial combats, sea-fights, swimming exhibitions, artificial woods, hunting scenes, and the slaying or fighting of lions, boars, leopards, bison, rhinos, elephants, tigers and bears. They were mostly pretty gruesome and cruel acts for public entertainment.

The full poem can be found here;

- - http://www.tertullian.org/fathers/martial_on_the_games_of_domitian_01_text.htm


Martial mentions bears from Caledonia (the Roman name for Scotland) and from near the north pole;

“…Laureolus, suspended on no feigned cross, offered his defenceless entrails to a Caledonian bear. His mangled limbs quivered, every part dripping with gore, and in his whole body no shape was to be found. “

Carpophorus the gladiator, ”…in addition, planted his hunting-spear in a fierce rushing bear, the monarch in the realm of the northern pole...”



Posted By: red clay
Date Posted: 19-Mar-2012 at 08:34
Originally posted by Sidney

Britain's got the Beast of Bodmin and the Loch Ness monster, but no bears in the woods.
 
Most folks don't think of bears when they think of New Jersey.
 
 
Bear sighting in Millville another sign of animals' move south
By DEREK HARPER, Staff Writer pressofAtlanticCity.com |
Friday, July 22, 2011 1:24 am
PressOfAtlanticCity.com
 

MILLVILLE - Beverly Steward never expected to see a bear walking in her backyard, but one did just that Wednesday.

State reports show that an unexpected visit by a bear, which has become common in North Jersey, is now part of a growing trend in southern New Jersey.

Steward lives on the 300 block of Cedar Street, a busy road about a half-mile from downtown. Behind her home, however, trees thicken around several houses whose backyards are adjacent to hundreds of acres of woodland that bracket the Millville Airport and New Jersey Motorsports Park.

Anything, it seems, could live back there.

On Tuesday, she let her two dogs out at about 9 a.m. They quickly started barking and chased something out of her yard, she said. She checked on them, then went inside and had some tea. She soon heard them barking again, accompanied by an undoglike "yipe."

"They were brave and they were scared for their lives," she said.

Some animal had apparently climbed over the 6-foot chain-link fence and helped itself to dog food in a bowl, then ambled toward the front of the building where her husband had thrown out some leftover pizza in the trash the previous night.

The dogs cornered it in her backyard. Steward called off her dogs and placed them in their outdoor pen. Then, using a small section of fence, she cordoned off part of her yard for the animal. The visitor escaped, and only then did she dare to look at it: coarse, thick, black fur clambering over the back fence and disappearing into the underbrush, where it smashed down the vegetation in its efforts to flee.

A quick Internet search and a visit to the city's animal-control office confirmed her suspicions: black bear.

"I was only two feet away from it, so I was scared," Steward said Thursday, standing a short distance from the tracks that remained in her sandy side yard.

But she is far from the only person to see a bear in southern New Jersey. The state Division of Fish and Wildlife's July 1 annual report on the status of the state's bears says their population is continuing to grow in the Garden State.

In 1995, the report said, bears were confined to the far northwestern corner of the state, where thick trees and rugged mountains make it "a textbook place for bears," which is the title of a New Yorker story by author John McPhee on the state's bear-control efforts.

When the state updated the report in 2000, it found that bears had spread south, with first-ever regional sightings in Estell Manor in Atlantic County and Millville in Cumberland County.

By 2009, bears had become even more prevalent, with sightings reported in almost every town in the central and northern parts of the state, except for islands and densely populated urban centers. That year, bear sightings were reported in 10 towns in Atlantic County, as well as three towns in Cape May, five in Cumberland and five in southern Ocean counties.

The state Division of Fish and Wildlife said it received 3,035 calls last year regarding black bears, the report said. While 235 calls were classified as a bear being a threat to life or property, the vast majority of the callers did not report dangerous behavior. However, the total number of calls is more than 50 percent higher than the 2,075 calls that the report said the agency received in 2003.

The vast majority of the calls came from northwestern New Jersey, where bears are endemic, said Larry Ragonese, a state Department of Environmental Protection spokesman. That part of New Jersey is the estimated home to about 3,400 bears, he said.

However, there have been bear sightings in all 21 counties.

"Bears normally live in the woods," he said, explaining the difference. "We just don't see them."

This year has seen a number of high-profile New Jersey bears, including a report in the London Telegraph on "bear number 6131," a young male that has traveled throughout central New Jersey fruitlessly searching for a mate.

These are Black Bears.  They don't get much larger than 3-400 lbs.
 


-------------
"Arguing with someone who hates you or your ideas, is like playing chess with a pigeon. No matter what move you make, your opponent will walk all over the board and scramble the pieces".
Unknown.


Posted By: Sidney
Date Posted: 19-Mar-2012 at 18:00
Why are the bears apparently moving further afield? Is it habitat disruption, or a growing population?


Posted By: Sidney
Date Posted: 19-Mar-2012 at 19:27
From the 'Armes Prydein' (Prophecy of Britain) an early 10th-century Welsh poem.

It describes a future where all of Brythonic peoples are allied with the Scots, the Irish, and the Vikings of Dublin under Welsh leadership, and together succeed in driving the Anglo-Saxons from Britain forever.
Cynan and Cadwaladr are two legendary Kings of Wales.

"They raise a barking, like a bear from the mountain…"

"Cynan and Cadwaladyr, mighty in armies;
They will be honoured until judgment: prosperity will attend them.
Two tenacious chiefs; profound their counsel.
Two that will overcome the Saxons, with the aid of the Lord.
Two generous ones, two treasurers of a merchant’s country.
Two fearless ones, ready, of one fortune, of one faith.
Two exalters of Prydein of bright armies.
Two bears do not know shame barking daily.
Druids foretell what great things will happen."


Posted By: Sidney
Date Posted: 19-Mar-2012 at 19:39
If the bear survived into the early centuries of the Christian era, I would have thought some of the myths, supposedly covering that time frame, would mention them. Surely a bear is a worthy opponent to some budding hero?

Could it be that these myths are not as old as is often believed? Or were bears so rare and timid, if not extinct, no one ever encountered them? Or do some bear encounters exist, but as tales of warriors fighting giants, (bears being very human-shaped when on their back legs, and reaching to eight feet in height)??

Geoffrey of Monmouth’s ‘History of the Kings of Britain’, written in 1136, tells a story that King Arthur dreamt of a dragon fighting and defeating a bear. Arthur’s advisers tell him that the dragon is him, and the bear is some giant that he will destroy. So, at least in the Norman period when Geoffrey was writing, a bear could be a giant. Arthur himself was not happy about the dream as he identified the bear with himself (Arthur = ‘bear’ in Welsh).

Another bear/giant link could appear in the coat of arms for the County of Warwick - a bear with a tree branch. The Earls of Warwick used a bear as an emblem from at least 1369, when Thomas de Beauchamp, 11th Earl of Warwick, appears with a bear at his feet on tomb. According to legend the bear originates from Arthgualchar (Arthgal), Earl of Warwick at the court of King Arthur, whose name meant ‘bear’. (Arthgualchar appears in Geoffrey of Monmouth’s book, but with no stories about him). So the bear emblem is a pun on the Earl’s name, and doesn’t refer to a real animal encounter. However, the branch in the coat of arms is said to come from another Earl, Morvidus, who killed a giant with a tree trunk. Perhaps this giant was really the bear in the coat of arms?



I also found a bear (or rather three muzzled bear heads) in the coat of arms for the Forbes family of Scotland. The family legend says that long ago a bear terrorised the area around Aberdeen. A brave man, called O’Chonchar, hunted and killed the bear, and the local landowner, the Duke of Forbes, gave him his daughter in marriage. The present Forbes family descend from that union and the bear heads commemorate the act of bravery. The story is also linked to a well called “Nine Maidens Well” near Duminnor, Aberdeenshire, where nine young girls are said to have been slain by the said beast.
How old the legend is I don’t know. The slaying of the bear is put by some people about 775 AD, but I don’t know what evidence they have, and the title Duke of Forbes is an anachronism for that period.
Besides, researchers say the first Forbes in Scotland was a Duncan, who, in 1272, was granted land called Forbois, in Aberdeenshire, by King Alexander. His successor John Forbois is the ancestor of the present Forbes family. The bear might be another pun on a name - Forbois being pronounced ‘for bears’.




Posted By: red clay
Date Posted: 20-Mar-2012 at 08:33
Originally posted by Sidney

Why are the bears apparently moving further afield? Is it habitat disruption, or a growing population?
 
 
It's probably some of both.  Bears have always moved south into the piney woods.  It's only been in the last 10 years or so that anyone's noticed.
 
 


-------------
"Arguing with someone who hates you or your ideas, is like playing chess with a pigeon. No matter what move you make, your opponent will walk all over the board and scramble the pieces".
Unknown.


Posted By: Sidney
Date Posted: 24-Mar-2012 at 08:29
The Gododdin, a poem recounting the fate of a British army that fought against the encroaching Saxons at Catterick, North Yorkshire in about 600 AD. The Britons were heavily defeated, and the poem is supposed to have been written by one of the few survivors, Aneirin.

There are many verses recounting the attributes and bravery of those Britons who fell. Some of these warriors are compared to bulls, or to lions or dragons. Three are compared to bears;

Verse XVI
Blaen shook off the bright city’s shackles, fierce honourable men following him:
A toast to their bravery was poured in his palace: Blaen would come serving bragget.
Beautiful he burned in gold and purple, riding his well-fed horses that would obey his command as they galloped:
Like a bear in forced retreat Blaen would turn slowly, raising his battle-cry.

Verse LXIII
The raid’s brave anchor, a snake with a terrible sting, he would trample on dark armour in front of the army:
A grim bear, an oppressive warrior, on the day of battle he would trample down spears on the dyke of alder;
A second lord Neddig he brought a feast for the birds through his wrath in the loud battle.
For your cruel deeds rightly are you called our foremost leader, the wall of our army:
Merin, Madiain’s son, it is fortunate you were born.

Verse CIII
He fed birds by hand.
I shall commend him, a civilised man and inheritor who was a killer.
In the van of the uproar he’d wear gold;
In battle, in the savagery of the great struggle his brown speckled forehead stood out like a rock.
He could have been one of the Three Cruel Ones for he’d always chase the cry of battle;
He was a grim bear, the attacker and the terrifier of champions:
When he joined that tall host he died, Gwengad’s son Cibno.


These are my thoughts on the ‘bear’ imagery I’ve found. Probably inaccurate due to lack of data/research, but for the moment…

Among the ancient Britons/Welsh, the bear symbolised a fierce warrior, as in the examples above, and in previous posts regarding Cynan and Cadwaladr, Cuneglas and (the title?) ‘Arthur’. The bear also appears in the Pictish stone carvings, although its significance there is unknown. These written and pictorial appearances date from the 6th to the 9th Centuries. Despite the lack of bears in the mythology, the surviving Britons/Welsh seem to be aware of the animal’s power and presence, whether it was extinct or not.

The Anglo-Saxons however, as far as I’ve read, have no references to bears in the existing literature. Even the poem Beowulf, where the hero’s name is meant to mean ‘bear’, has no bear imagery given to him. But I’ve not finished looking, and if anyone knows of bears appearing in Anglo-Saxon art (outside of direct Biblical references), let us know. If I find none, would that suggest the bear become extinct in the Anglo-Saxon home countries far earlier than in Britain, and that they encountered none in their conquest?

Interestingly though, the Normans, who conquered the Saxons, seem to have been aware of the earlier bear imagery. The Norman references I found place the image in a pre-Saxon Britain of Celtic King Arthur, or Pictish Scotland (see previous posts). The Normans seem to have been quite interested in the Welsh legends, hence the explosion in Arthurian literature. But their writings on the natural history of Wales and Ireland mention no bears, suggesting that the animal was now definitely extinct.

And what of the Danes in Britain? The Norse sagas contain bears, and stories of the warrior berserkers (bear-shirts), who followed Odin and fought with a supernatural ferocity, if not actually turning into bears during battle. It surprised me that this seems a close parallel to the Welsh imagery of ’bear’ equalling ‘fierce warrior’. But, again, I don’t recall any myths of bears in Norse mythology.

Anyone got any further thoughts on bears in Britain?

Bears on some tombs -
There were ten of these tomb markers found at Brompton, Yorkshire. Their date is uncertain, but their similarity and design, added to a large number of Viking stone crosses also found in the parish, suggest that they date from the Danish occupation of Yorkshire, in the late 9th to early 11th century, and that this area contained a company of stone carvers. The bears appear to be muzzled - a feature not appearing in the Pictish carving - perhaps the Vikings were used to captive bears.


Posted By: Sidney
Date Posted: 30-Mar-2013 at 17:08
Originally posted by Sidney

Geoffrey of Monmouth’s ‘History of the Kings of Britain’, written in 1136, tells a story that King Arthur dreamt of a dragon fighting and defeating a bear. Arthur’s advisers tell him that the dragon is him, and the bear is some giant that he will destroy. So, at least in the Norman period when Geoffrey was writing, a bear could be a giant. Arthur himself was not happy about the dream as he identified the bear with himself (Arthur = ‘bear’ in Welsh).

After this dream Arthur does indeed fight and defeat a giant, on Mont St.Michael in Britanny. This encounter was so fierce that it caused Arthur to remember an earlier giant he had slain.

This earlier fight was with the giant Retho, on Mount Snowdon in Wales. This Retho had a cloak made of beards, which beards were obtained from the many kings he had defeated. Arthur slew him and took the cloak for himself. Perhaps this cloak of beards was actual fur, and Retho was a mighty Welsh bear that Arthur slew and skinned?


I have only found (up to now) one explicit encounter between a bear and a figure in Welsh mythology/legend. This is in a Welsh triad poem that reads;

"The three vigorous ones of the Isle of Britain
Gwrnerth the Sharp Shot, who killed the greatest bear that was ever seen with a straw arrow;
Gwgawn with the Mighty Hand, who rolled the stone of Maenarch from the valley to the mountain summit, and which required sixty oxen to draw it;
and Eidiol the Mighty, who, in the Plot of Stonehenge, killed six hundred and sixty Saxons with a billet of the service tree, between sun-set and dusk."


Unfortunately this triad only seems to appear in the 18th Century collection of Iolo Morganwg, who is strongly suspected of having forged some of his 'ancient' poems. But whether the story of Gwrnerth shooting a bear with a straw arrow is of ancient source or is an 18th Century creation, its the only reference I have found to anybody in Welsh legend being said to have encountered a bear in person.


Posted By: Sidney
Date Posted: 01-Apr-2013 at 15:11
Another possible echo of bears in Welsh myth is in the C14th Mabinogion tales. King Math son of Mathonwy, whose names mean 'bear' and 'bearlike', could only live if his feet were in the lap of a virgin. But his current virgin was raped by his nephews. Math married her to preserve her honour, and as a replacement chose his niece, Arianrhod. To test her virginity she had to leap over his staff, but in so doing she gave birth to a son Dylan, and a lump of flesh. Arianrhod fled the court, and while Dylan was brought up at court, the lump of flesh was wrapped in a cloth and placed in a chest. Sometime later cries were heard coming from the chest, and on investigation, a baby boy was found, later called Lleu Llaw Gyffes (the skill handed fair-one).

This connects to bears because in old folklore a bear gave birth to lumps of flesh, which she licked into the shape of bear cubs. Thus LLeu, nephew of a bear, was born as a lump of flesh that only later became a child.


Posted By: opuslola
Date Posted: 02-Jan-2014 at 21:16
Sidney, what a great service you have done above!

Bravo, Ron

-------------
http://www.quotationspage.com/subjects/history/



Print Page | Close Window

Bulletin Board Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 9.56a - http://www.webwizforums.com
Copyright ©2001-2009 Web Wiz - http://www.webwizguide.com