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Was the cult of Great Mother exchanged with Jesus?

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Topic: Was the cult of Great Mother exchanged with Jesus?
Posted By: medenaywe
Subject: Was the cult of Great Mother exchanged with Jesus?
Date Posted: 20-Jan-2012 at 09:20
INRI means:From the First Her,mother's connection!-in my language.
It says different here:
http://www.thenazareneway.com/inri_the_inscription_explained.htm - http://www.thenazareneway.com/inri_the_inscription_explained.htm
and here intrigue grows up:The gospel writers were not concerned with the exact wording, but were concerned with the exact meaning.
http://www.onenesspentecostal.com/inscription.htm - http://www.onenesspentecostal.com/inscription.htm





Replies:
Posted By: medenaywe
Date Posted: 23-Jan-2012 at 04:44
Instead of Great Mother,Jesus had had his mother Mary!Was her name,Mory in the beginning?Connection with Great Mother,Ma(o!)Ri,still exists?In some areas of Med sea&Balkans,cult of Virgin Mary is bigger than Christ as God!Great Mother name literary translated means "Womb"=From Inside Nest!This one reminds us about first human habitats beneath the earth's surface also,but for me is proof about language which rules&existence have lasted from the dawn of human civilization!Here we have more about Pagan origin of herself:
http://www.jesusneverexisted.com/mary.htm - http://www.jesusneverexisted.com/mary.htm



Posted By: medenaywe
Date Posted: 23-Jan-2012 at 04:54
Here is official version from Council of Nicaea:
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15459a.htm - http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15459a.htm


Posted By: medenaywe
Date Posted: 23-Jan-2012 at 04:58
Here are some cults in Roman empire:
http://www.usu.edu/markdamen/1320Hist&Civ/chapters/12CULTS.htm - http://www.usu.edu/markdamen/1320Hist&Civ/chapters/12CULTS.htm


Posted By: medenaywe
Date Posted: 23-Jan-2012 at 06:23
How did Rome spreed around it adopt all religions from occupied territories:
Cybele entered the Roman sphere at a crucial juncture in history. In 205-202 BCE at the close of the Second Punic War, the Romans narrowly defeated Carthage, their rival for control of the western Mediterranean region. Bloodied but victorious, the state felt it owed some measure of that victory to Cybele, since, according to Roman historical records, it was on the advice of an oracle that her worship had been imported to Italy.


Posted By: medenaywe
Date Posted: 23-Jan-2012 at 06:49
Main claim is:Virgin Ma(o)ry(i) character in ancient screenplay was created for Jesus support,cause believers of Great Mother were most numerous!New religion was established on top of it's most popular predecessor!


Posted By: medenaywe
Date Posted: 25-Jan-2012 at 04:22
Let us compare,cult of Isis with cult of Mary:
http://www.unrv.com/culture/isis.php - http://www.unrv.com/culture/isis.php
http://www.philipcoppens.com/saintesmaries.html - http://www.philipcoppens.com/saintesmaries.html


Posted By: Nick1986
Date Posted: 25-Jan-2012 at 19:23
Actually INRI is the abbreviation of Jesus of Nazereth King (Rex) of the Jews. The bible itself verifies this

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Me Grimlock not nice Dino! Me bash brains!


Posted By: Centrix Vigilis
Date Posted: 25-Jan-2012 at 21:43
Originally posted by Nick1986

Actually INRI is the abbreviation of Jesus of Nazareth King (Rex) of the Jews. The bible itself verifies this
 
Correct.
 
Given by the Romans not Jews... as a title of respect and or derision (depends on viewpoint and interpret) at his crucifixion...as a means of identifying what they viewed as a political criminal. This in turn based on his professions and the manipulation of his words by the Elders. Not necessarily as the council id' ...as an apostate-blasphemer etc.
 
The leap is to far to assume he is related as a mother cult replacement or that his mother was his superior.  For one thing he was male not female consequently an identification of him as a replacement for a maternal figure is an oxymoron at best....revisionist at worst.  As for his mother... Scripture deny's this.
 
She is not worshipped.. she is venerated. There is a significant difference.
 
 


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"Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence"

S. T. Friedman


Pilger's law: 'If it's been officially denied, then it's probably true'



Posted By: medenaywe
Date Posted: 26-Jan-2012 at 01:36
Those people worship her.In Balkans,there are lot of places with St.Mary local celebration according church calender of course!Meaning of INRI as one of possibilities is one that is exposed above!Bible and it's texts inside have passed long duration copy&paste period of time so that,real meaning&purpose of them(INRI) could be known today!But according some new data about language should be revealed by me,It is one of possibilities.Non logical today does not means,non logical in that moment when religion had been changed and New one established by Rome!
Those people in Italy also worship her:(Their PaPa also!)Smile
http://www.asiaone.com/News/AsiaOne+News/World/Story/A1Story20100510-215260.html - http://www.asiaone.com/News/AsiaOne+News/World/Story/A1Story20100510-215260.html



Posted By: Don Quixote
Date Posted: 26-Jan-2012 at 03:07
The Virgin Mary was just another projection of the cult of the Great Mother/Inanna/Isis etc. She has all the signs of a Great Mother:
- being self-sufficient = the virgin birth, since no man is neccessary for it. She being ompregnated with teh word of god is only due to the change of society from matriarchal to patriarchal, hence God became male.
- giving birth of life = Jesus is the eternal life itself, the change from physical to spiritual life is only because the society became able to think in more symbolic way.
- taking care of females, birth, death = Mother Mary is seen as female-caretaker, called and prayed for women in labour.

All in all, the Great Goddess is one of the human cultural archetypes, those cultural matrixes that are filled with new content, but retain the old one. In some ways the Virgin was accepted because the cultural archetype pf the Great Goddess was so old and accepted one.


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Posted By: medenaywe
Date Posted: 26-Jan-2012 at 03:23
Yes,that's one of the points of this story.Other one is:Were Jesus&Mary contemporary followers of this cult
most extended in ancient world those days?


Posted By: Cryptic
Date Posted: 26-Jan-2012 at 16:49
Was there ever truly a "cult of the the great mother goddess"?   My general impression is that the idea of a trans cultural "mother goddess" is largely a creation of the modern (post 1960s)  neo paganism or new age movements in the USA. 
 
Though ancient cultures did have fertility goddeses and a variety of other female dieties, I dont think there is any archaelogical evidence of a universal "mother goddess cult".


Posted By: Don Quixote
Date Posted: 26-Jan-2012 at 18:49
Originally posted by Cryptic

Was there ever truly a "cult of the the great mother goddess"?   My general impression is that the idea of a trans cultural "mother goddess" is largely a creation of the modern (post 1960s)  neo paganism or new age movements in the USA. 
 
Though ancient cultures did have fertility goddeses and a variety of other female dieties, I dont think there is any archaelogical evidence of a universal "mother goddess cult".

I'm not talking about Gimbutas and the supposed universsl Neolithic cult to Mother-Goddess, this may be so, maybe not, even though I think she has a good case; I'm talking about the fertility godesses that were around since Catal Huyuk, and later were transformed in goddesses for the type of Inanna/Isis/Cotys/Cybele/Kali, etc. Moreover, I'm talking about cultural archetypes, which fit into each other, as Campbell talks about. Whatever the case is, the Virgin Mary image is one directly coming from Inanna/Isis/Kali, notwithstanding if the last came from any supposed universal cult, or not.


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Posted By: Don Quixote
Date Posted: 26-Jan-2012 at 19:12
Originally posted by medenaywe

Yes,that's one of the points of this story.Other one is:Were Jesus&Mary contemporary followers of this cult
most extended in ancient world those days?

AFAIK the early Christianity shared ground with the Roman state religion, /which, like the Greek one, had plenty of female goddesses that took aspects of the Great Mother archetypal image/, and with the Egyptian religion, /whose Isis is another Great Mother/, and the Anatolian Cybele, who was adopted in Roma as "Magna Mater" /which means exactly Great Mother/, so when Christianity was made an official religion, Virgin Mary just slid in the place of those female deities.

In other words, the Great Mother under different names, but with the same function, was widespread all over the Roman Empire, and were worshipped with gusto. Caligula is known to have relied on the Great Mother, in the face of Isis /but he called her "Great Mother", just like Cybele/, and legitimized her in Rome, and all his sisters were priestesses on Isis.


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Posted By: Nick1986
Date Posted: 26-Jan-2012 at 19:28
INRI is the origin of the expression "Jesus H Christ." The H stands for HenryLOL

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Me Grimlock not nice Dino! Me bash brains!


Posted By: Cryptic
Date Posted: 26-Jan-2012 at 22:28
Originally posted by Don Quixote

  Moreover, I'm talking about cultural archetypes, which fit into each other, as Campbell talks about. Whatever the case is, the Virgin Mary image is one directly coming from Inanna/Isis/Kali, notwithstanding if the last came from any supposed universal cult, or not.
 
I understand now.   I think it may well be so.  As a side note, it is somewhat common for Hindus in India and Trinidad to worship at Catholic or Orthodox shrines to the virgin Mary as some Hindus feel that she is a representation of the Hindu goddess Durga. 
 
One interesting thing, however, is that Judaism, though it is more ancient that Christianity, lacks a possible mother goddess figure.  Though there are isolated references to Yahweh "and consort" , there references are few and far between.  
 
I would not be surprised if very early Christianity also lacked the mother goddess connection.  Maybe the concept was then placed in Christianity to make it more appealing to pagan converts.


Posted By: Don Quixote
Date Posted: 26-Jan-2012 at 23:45
Originally posted by Cryptic

Originally posted by Don Quixote

  Moreover, I'm talking about cultural archetypes, which fit into each other, as Campbell talks about. Whatever the case is, the Virgin Mary image is one directly coming from Inanna/Isis/Kali, notwithstanding if the last came from any supposed universal cult, or not.
 
I understand now.   I think it may well be so.  As a side note, it is somewhat common for Hindus in India and Trinidad to worship at Catholic or Orthodox shrines to the virgin Mary as some Hindus feel that she is a representation of the Hindu goddess Durga. 
 
One interesting thing, however, is that Judaism, though it is more ancient that Christianity, lacks a possible mother goddess figure.  Though there are isolated references to Yahweh "and consort" , there references are few and far between.  
 
I would not be surprised if very early Christianity also lacked the mother goddess connection.  Maybe the concept was then placed in Christianity to make it more appealing to pagan converts.

This about the Hindis and Durga is very interesting, I didn't know it, and it's exactly what I'm talking about here - a cultural matrix on the go. In the same way Herodotus equated Greek and Egyptian and Thracian divinities, trying to match them by functions, and saying that Zeus was Amun, etc.

Judaism doesn't have a mother figure, that's right. I suspect that the reason for that is the Jewish society was so strictly patriarchal, and they needed very strong discipline in order to survive as a small desert tribe; this combined with strict monotheism didn't allow for mother figure. In Egypt, when Akhenaten tried to introduce monotheism, it also had only one male divinity, Aten. We can only try to search for possible reasons why one religion develops one kind of idea, and another doesn't.

Gnosticism seems to have had a strong female presence in it, several of the Gnostic "scriptures" are devoted to the female Soul/Sofia/Wisdom/,  /this one is my favorite  http://www.gnosis.org/naghamm/thunder.html - http://www.gnosis.org/naghamm/thunder.html and not coincidentally, IMHO, the idea of Mary Magdalene as a special disciple is documented in the  http://www.gnosis.org/library/marygosp.htm - http://www.gnosis.org/library/marygosp.htm

Anyway, I'll quote a little from the first "scripture' I linked here:
"...For I am the first and the last.
I am the honored one and the scorned one.
I am the whore and the holy one.
I am the wife and the virgin.
I am <the mother> and the daughter.
I am the members of my mother.
I am the barren one
and many are her sons.
I am she whose wedding is great,
and I have not taken a husband.
I am the midwife and she who does not bear.
I am the solace of my labor pains.
I am the bride and the bridegroom,
and it is my husband who begot me.
I am the mother of my father
and the sister of my husband
and he is my offspring.
I am the slave of him who prepared me.
I am the ruler of my offspring.
But he is the one who begot me before the time on a birthday.
And he is my offspring in (due) time,
and my power is from him....

This is an absolute description of the attribute of the mother Goddess - self-sufficient, life-giving, life-and-death, beginning-and-the-end. My guess here is that the Gnostics patterned Sofia/Soul/Mary-of-Magdala on the Great Mother. Here from the Mary's gospel:

"...1) But they were grieved. They wept greatly, saying, How shall we go to the Gentiles and preach the gospel of the Kingdom of the Son of Man? If they did not spare Him, how will they spare us?

2) Then Mary stood up, greeted them all, and said to her brethren, Do not weep and do not grieve nor be irresolute, for His grace will be entirely with you and will protect you.

3) But rather, let us praise His greatness, for He has prepared us and made us into Men.

4) When Mary said this, she turned their hearts to the Good, and they began to discuss the words of the Savior.

5) Peter said to Mary, Sister we know that the Savior loved you more than the rest of woman.

6) Tell us the words of the Savior which you remember which you know, but we do not, nor have we heard them.

7) Mary answered and said, What is hidden from you I will proclaim to you....

So, with Jesus dead, the disciples are all worried, and turn to Mary as to someone who was "special", and who received special knowledge from Jesus. So, this is what she tells them:

"...10) And desire said, I did not see you descending, but now I see you ascending. Why do you lie since you belong to me?

11) The soul answered and said, I saw you. You did not see me nor recognize me. I served you as a garment and you did not know me.

12) When it said this, it (the soul) went away rejoicing greatly..."


This is typical female imagery, and the disciples don;t understand it, so Peter start saying that this is nonsense, then Levy:

"... Now I see you contending against the woman like the adversaries.

8) But if the Savior made her worthy, who are you indeed to reject her? Surely the Savior knows her very well.

9) That is why He loved her more than us...."

Anyway, the words of Mary are very similar for the imagery in the 'Thunder: and another Gnostic scripture   http://www.gnosis.org/naghamm/exe.html - http://www.gnosis.org/naghamm/exe.html   in which the Souls is seen as female and strikingly similar to both the "Thunder" and the words of Mary of Magdala. I see 2 possibilities here:
-  first, the female image Soul/Sofia/Mary of Magdala being patterned after the Great Mother
- second, the possibility that Mary who came later to be seen as wife of Jesus by some "heretic" Christian groups was seen as united with Jesus in a "Hiero gamos" from the type Inanna=Dumuzi, Isis+Osiris - in other words, between the Great Mother and the dying-and-ressurected-god, which Jesus was in the same archetypal patterning suggested by Campbell and others Dumuzi/Osisris/Dionysos/Jesus was one and the same matrix.

But, since the Gnostics were beaten as a Christian possibility and the mainstream Christianity develop from another Christian/philosophic groups, the Virgin Mary got to be the one to fulfill the female role, to substitute for the needs of people to fill with meaning what they had before on the face of the Great Mother. In teh same principle the Catholic and Orthodox saints came to be about - many of them /but not all/ are patterned after pagan divinities, like St. Bridgit after the Celtic Brigit /who was called the Triple Goddess, and was a variety of the Great Mother/ http://www.druidry.org/obod/deities/brigid.html - http://www.druidry.org/obod/deities/brigid.html



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Posted By: medenaywe
Date Posted: 27-Jan-2012 at 01:19
Originally posted by Cryptic

Was there ever truly a "cult of the the great mother goddess"?   My general impression is that the idea of a trans cultural "mother goddess" is largely a creation of the modern (post 1960s)  neo paganism or new age movements in the USA. 
 
Though ancient cultures did have fertility goddeses and a variety of other female dieties, I dont think there is any archaelogical evidence of a universal "mother goddess cult".

 I am trying to be objective about this subject and will ask:When&Why did they put mother's(blade) obelisk in front of St.Peter's Basilica than Cyrus?(It was there in 1630,it has been there from the beginning!)
http://www.sacred-destinations.com/italy/rome-st-peters-basilica-photos/slides/1630-painting-by-viviano-codazzi - http://www.sacred-destinations.com/italy/rome-st-peters-basilica-photos/slides/1630-painting-by-viviano-codazzi
Pope needed Mother's help as it looks?!?


Posted By: medenaywe
Date Posted: 27-Jan-2012 at 01:36
Little copy&paste from historical databases:
Originally, it stood in Heliopolis. In the 1st century, Augustus had it moved to Alexandria, dedicating it to the memory of Julius Caesar, his stepfather. In AD 37, emperor Caligula had it taken to Rome as a decoration for the stadium whose making was in progress by the Vatican Hill. This building became known as the Circus of Gaius (i.e. Caligula's actual name) and Nero, having been completed under the latter emperor.
Since no hieroglyphs are inscribed on its shaft, the dating of this obelisk is difficult.
And full link about it for you here:
http://roma.andreapollett.com/S3/roma-co1.htm - http://roma.andreapollett.com/S3/roma-co1.htm
Great Mother cult has been replaced by Jesus since beginning as it looks and St.Mary supported it!In Americas old religious cults have been changed couple of centuries before!(They have practiced them still!)Even Pope needed Mother's blade,did he believe in Her force,we could only ask ourselves!Big smile
Obelisk presence was elder than Christianity,on Vatican's main Square!If it is,who was before,Goddess in charge?


Posted By: Don Quixote
Date Posted: 27-Jan-2012 at 01:41
[/QUOTE]
 I am trying to be objective about this subject and will ask:When&Why did they put mother's(blade) obelisk in front of St.Peter's Basilica than Cyrus?(It was there in 1630,it has been there from the beginning!)
http://www.sacred-destinations.com/italy/rome-st-peters-basilica-photos/slides/1630-painting-by-viviano-codazzi - http://www.sacred-destinations.com/italy/rome-st-peters-basilica-photos/slides/1630-painting-by-viviano-codazzi
Pope needed Mother's help as it looks?!?
[/QUOTE]
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

But I though the Egyptian obelisks were phallic symbols   http://www.jwu.edu/uploadedFiles/Documents/Academics/JWUHonPaperTheObeliskDNV.pdf - http://www.jwu.edu/uploadedFiles/Documents/Academics/JWUHonPaperTheObeliskDNV.pdf connected with the "sacred autoerotism" cult of Amun /who created everything through such an act/, and the said obelisk came from Egypt:
"...In the center of the square is a 25.5-meter-tall obelisk, which dates from 13th-century BC Egypt and was brought to Rome in the 1st century to stand in Nero's Circus some 275 yards away...."
http://www.sacred-destinations.com/italy/rome-st-peters-basilica

The Romans called them "Cleopatra's needles" because they had no idea what was done in the temple of Amun in Karnak  here is a video about it,  http://www.sexualecstasy.org/ - http://www.sexualecstasy.org/   and just as a warning, one has to be over 18 to see it, but it's a historical movie, ignore the name of the cite.  The video is on the first page, "Karnak-Hidden History", a BBC production.

Anyway, the obelisks are not  female symbols, at least not  in the way they were seen in Egypt. If the way they were seen later changed, I'm not aware of such change, and would welcome some info about it, thanks in advance.



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Posted By: medenaywe
Date Posted: 27-Jan-2012 at 01:56
Romans knew what  they were:needles or blades!Only Mother Goddess had Blade in Her arm!Control of Mother's arm was very powerful idea for Egyptian pharaohs as it looks.It was for Rome also.Smile


Posted By: Don Quixote
Date Posted: 27-Jan-2012 at 02:19
Originally posted by medenaywe

Romans knew what  they were:needles or blades!Only Mother Goddess had Blade in Her arm!Control of Mother's arm was very powerful idea for Egyptian pharaohs as it looks.It was for Rome also.Smile

Well, I actually like that version betterSmile, being a Mother-Goddess fan; but all the sources I read on that give the obelisk as a phallic symbol for the Egyptians.
It's possible that the Romans changed their meaning, interpreting them as needles/blades; but was Isis ever portrayed with blades?
If the blade meaning is accepted, then it would play in my corner of cultural stereotypes and the Virgin being a Mother Goddess; hence the blades becoming a tool conjuring the power of the Great Mother/Virgin Mary for the uses and needs of the Pope and the princes of the church.


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Posted By: medenaywe
Date Posted: 27-Jan-2012 at 02:27
I am a source!Take this as preparation for a book&documentary here!Let us make it objective!No religion No nationalities inside,just a truth about roots of ours!Smile


Posted By: Don Quixote
Date Posted: 27-Jan-2012 at 02:37
Originally posted by medenaywe

I am a source!Take this as preparation for a book&documentary here!Let us make it objective!No religion No nationalities inside,just a truth about roots of ours!Smile

You seriously are writing a book, medenaywe? That's interesting, when it comes out how can we get a copy of it?


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Posted By: medenaywe
Date Posted: 27-Jan-2012 at 03:01
You will receive a copy with subscription:Devoted to Don!Thumbs UpObjectivity and scientific approach are objectives,I am stretching for!And believe me sources about it,have been systematically destroyed for 20 and more centuries after.I have 32 lines of text,our languages as they are today/were in near past and a lot of refurbished history all around!Therefore all it looks as puzzle's draw rebus in which I have to reconstruct parts that are missing!
P.S.
I want to send this man book also cause he has wished me good luck after I asked  him for 1:1 photo  replica of stone without sending me nothing($ were not questioned here),Smilecause i solved inscriptions with "telepathy".
http://www.freemaninstitute.com/rosettastone.htm - http://www.freemaninstitute.com/rosettastone.htm


Posted By: Don Quixote
Date Posted: 27-Jan-2012 at 03:22
Originally posted by medenaywe

You will receive with subscription:Devoted to Don!Thumbs UpObjectivity and scientific approach are objectives,I am stretching for!And believe me sources about it,have been systematically destroyed for 20 and more centuries after.I have 32 rows of text,our languages as they are today/were in near past,a lot of refurbished history all around!Therefore all it looks as puzzle's draw rebus in which I have to reconstruct parts that are missing!
P.S.
I want to send this man book also cause he has wished me good luck after I asked  him for 1:1 photo  replica of stone without sending me nothing($ were not questioned here),Smilecause i solved inscriptions with "telepathy".
http://www.freemaninstitute.com/rosettastone.htm - http://www.freemaninstitute.com/rosettastone.htm

It sure sounds interesting. Well, when you publish, tell us how we can subscribe for the book. With an autograph, of courseSmile, as you promise here, I'll hold you to that promiseSmile. I wish you luck tooSmile.


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Posted By: medenaywe
Date Posted: 27-Jan-2012 at 05:15
"One interesting thing, however, is that Judaism, though it is more ancient that Christianity, lacks a possible mother goddess figure.  Though there are isolated references to Yahweh "and consort" , there references are few and far between."Whom do they pray to,people?"=end of citation!
Has been ever biggest statue than mother's body itself?Was this biggest argument for religious wars between two main religions?ShockedHow did you pray a pray:with all fours on earth whispering or standing but touching wall&icon&cross&whispering as connection with Mother Earth's body?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-FXE2brxtg8 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-FXE2brxtg8
http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/galleries/salah/ - http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/galleries/salah/
  


Posted By: medenaywe
Date Posted: 27-Jan-2012 at 05:27
I will forget:Both of them are whisperers of Mother,they whisper in Her ear!People that were once one nation now are killing among themselves,such a parody of history at work!




Posted By: Don Quixote
Date Posted: 27-Jan-2012 at 13:13
Originally posted by medenaywe

"One interesting thing, however, is that Judaism, though it is more ancient that Christianity, lacks a possible mother goddess figure.  Though there are isolated references to Yahweh "and consort" , there references are few and far between."Whom do they pray to,people?"=end of citation!
Has been ever biggest statue than mother's body itself?Was this biggest argument for religious wars between two main religions?ShockedHow did you pray a pray:with all fours on earth whispering or standing but touching wall&icon&cross&whispering as connection with Mother Earth's body?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-FXE2brxtg8 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-FXE2brxtg8
http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/galleries/salah/ - http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/galleries/salah/
  

That's an interesting angle - prayer as whispering to Mother Earth's ear. My Ancient History university professor, the great Tracologist Alexander Fol in one lecture defined dancing, as part of a religious ritual, in a trance, as "awakening the Great Mother-the Earth because she is in, and have to be called out", tramping on the earth so she can hear it /I cite by a memory from more than a 10 years ago, I remember the lecture was about Catal Huyuk/.

As for wall/icon/cross - OK, wall and cross are both grounded in the ground, with a push of imagination one can see them as a connecting medium; but any icon is the very image of whoever one is praying to, so if the icon represents Jesus, thus the same cannot be connection with Earth, but a connection to Jesus; if the icon is a female, no matter if the Virgin's or any female saint /the last as only Christianized projections of the Great mother Goddess/.

In the Genesis though whoever was praying were prostrated on the ground, and such way of praying was sometimes done in medieval time, if I remember right from some descriptions.


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Posted By: medenaywe
Date Posted: 27-Jan-2012 at 13:21
INRI=Jesus!From First Her Mother's,connection.Christian religion offers part of Mother's body on Earth!INRI
is a offer!Take Jesus,mother's child,he is the God also,cause He has divine origin&blood,he is continuity of
your old Goddess,her connection on Earth's surface!


Posted By: Don Quixote
Date Posted: 27-Jan-2012 at 14:03
Originally posted by medenaywe

INRI=Jesus!From First Her Mother's,connection.Christian religion offers part of Mother's body on Earth!INRI
is a offer!Take Jesus,mother's child,he is the God also,cause He has divine origin&blood,he is continuity of
your old Goddess,her connection on Earth's surface!

What is IHRI?
Well, if we accept that Mother-Earth/Inanna/Isis/Virgin Mary are one, and Dumuzi/Osiris/Jesus are on, then yes, Jesus is life and the continuity of the Mother Earth. There is quite of resisitance to this idea though, I've been promoting it in the last months on another history forum and too many Christians get irate at me, feeling like I try to make Christianity connected with paganism, and devaluate it in this way; when in truth what can be more sacred that what was worshiped around in different places since the Paleolithic? I've been studying variety of religions and mythologies, and have the feeling that all they all can be reduced, /like fractions are reduced/, to a simple Nature/Life formula; since the Mother Goddess, is ultimately Mother Earth-nature, who is life-giving.

Anyway, another angle can be out on that - Jesus as the connection between mankind and Mother Earth, /which doesn't take any of his attributes, in fact adds more/, then taking the sacrament can be seen as renewing this connection on weekly, or whatever time of period, basis.


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Posted By: medenaywe
Date Posted: 27-Jan-2012 at 14:15
It is INRI.Your conclusion seems similar with those that have forged History:No other opinion than official
exists!Pretend as it is only universal truth.According your post above I know now why language had been
lost it's logic:Useless words have to cover logic in sentence&words!Have a nice time Don.


Posted By: medenaywe
Date Posted: 27-Jan-2012 at 14:45
Agree,I am talking about INRI script,as oldest with real meaning for me.Origin is object of this topic not believer's faith!Who do can talk about personal believer's faith!In the same time,Mother Goddess,connects all religions on Earth today.This topic speaks about our connections with first biggest known religion in world.If it is true we can talk about those that had separated people in many religions and their motivations for it.


Posted By: Cryptic
Date Posted: 27-Jan-2012 at 15:47
Originally posted by Don Quixote

Judaism doesn't have a mother figure, that's right. I suspect that the reason for that is the Jewish society was so strictly patriarchal, and they needed very strong discipline in order to survive as a small desert tribe; this combined with strict monotheism didn't allow for mother figure.  We can only try to search for possible reasons why one religion develops one kind of idea, and another doesn't.
I think you have some very good possible reasons. A small, homogenous society that is often under pressure such as tribal and then ancient Israel is going to allow alot less religous experimentation than larger, more heterogenous societies.  Likewise, the orders of religous leaders ("Hey, no more mother goddess talk") are far more likely to actually be enforced in small, compact societies than in larger ones. 
Originally posted by Don Quixote

 
"...For I am the first and the last.
I am the honored one and the scorned one.
I am the whore and the holy one.
I am the wife and the virgin.
I am <the mother> and the daughter.
Thanks for posting this.  The imagery is quite beautiful, sort  of a feminine Alpha and Omega or I Am Who Am


Posted By: medenaywe
Date Posted: 27-Jan-2012 at 16:01
"Small tribe"?They were part of Ancient Egyptian civilization Cyrus!Rome had created image of small tribe as it looks now but language they have used from the beginning reveals me that "Arabs"&"Jews"&"Slavs" have belonged all inside Egyptian civilization.They have shared same syllabic language with same meaning of syllables and rules.Is this not enough?!?My statement does not deny other people existence there at all!Even some Persian words meaning could be translated using those rules&syllables!Turks also!I suppose that Mother Earth religion was most accepted among them those days.Religions that have followed it show us it with their similarities.



Posted By: Cryptic
Date Posted: 27-Jan-2012 at 16:22
Originally posted by medenaywe

I will forget:Both of them are whisperers of Mother,they whisper in Her ear!
I disagree, the Moslem prayer posture is probably more the position of aman before his king rather than earth centered.  Like wise, the Wailing Wall is a portion of a Temple built to honor a God associated with the sky, not the earth.
Originally posted by medenaywe

"Small tribe"?They were part of Ancient Egyptian civilization Cyrus!Rome had created image of small tribe as it looks now but language they have used from the beginning reveals me that "Arabs"&"Jews"&"Slavs" have belonged all inside Egyptian civilization.
I think it is fair to describe Israel as a small tribe and then a relatively small nation.  Whether in Egypt or Persia, they existed as a distinct people and even after population growth and incorperating surviving Caanites into Israel, they were a relatively small nation.  


Posted By: medenaywe
Date Posted: 27-Jan-2012 at 16:41
Maybe not now but their predecessors(or their priests?) did it on their pray on knees!Priests were whispers of Mother Earth and today in place I live, sorceresses make their spells this way,whispering!But the Statue is in front of them both as it looks!Rome spent tremendous efforts to put them on feet.


Posted By: medenaywe
Date Posted: 28-Jan-2012 at 03:21
As it turns out, the Virgin Mary is, like Jesus Christ, a mythical character, founded upon older goddesses. Following on the heels of goddesses such as Aphrodite, Astarte, Cybele, Demeter, Hathor, Inanna, Ishtar and Isis, Mary is "both virgin and mother, and, like many of them, she gives birth to a half-human, half-divine child, who dies and is reborn."
http://www.truthbeknown.com/mary.html - http://www.truthbeknown.com/mary.html


Posted By: Centrix Vigilis
Date Posted: 28-Jan-2012 at 09:19
Originally posted by medenaywe

As it turns out, the Virgin Mary is, like Jesus Christ, a mythical character, founded upon older goddesses. Following on the heels of goddesses such as Aphrodite, Astarte, Cybele, Demeter, Hathor, Inanna, Ishtar and Isis, Mary is "both virgin and mother, and, like many of them, she gives birth to a half-human, half-divine child, who dies and is reborn."
http://www.truthbeknown.com/mary.html - http://www.truthbeknown.com/mary.html
 
Nonsense...3.4 billion Abrahamic faith followers reject this utterly. In fact this is the typical response of the atheists or revisionist attempting links with earlier paganistic or other ethnic-socio mythologies-theologies.
 
Scriptures (best available source) provide us with her existence in the genealogies Id there or in the apocryphal James..take your pick. She can legitimately claim an affiliation with both the House of Levi and David.


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"Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence"

S. T. Friedman


Pilger's law: 'If it's been officially denied, then it's probably true'



Posted By: medenaywe
Date Posted: 28-Jan-2012 at 10:07
When do I have not logical response other people's opinion is not insulted!You can not post here number of
Israelites as you have had statistic data from those days.As for Statue,Cryptic and CV,it is still your home!
Whom did ancient Arab&Jew pray is more than obvious!
All other's arguments above pro&con are here cause of solid research and believe me You are wrong!SmileBut that do not mean you are "atheists" and "socialists"!Science needs people with open minds more than those that always have agreed with official opinion of Queen's swarm!Lamp.


Posted By: medenaywe
Date Posted: 29-Jan-2012 at 04:34
Here is description of first after Ptolemy era's years in Egypt also about traces of Great Mother there:
http://books.google.mk/books?id=E0DhKd-9GEUC&pg=PA100&lpg=PA100&dq=philo+of+alexandria+and+cult+of+great+mother&source=bl&ots=Xc_bXwkj1G&sig=6cqTXcoKxKU3-4HE0f5KTIbJvQg&hl=en&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=philo%20of%20alexandria%20and%20cult%20of%20great%20mother&f=false - http://books.google.mk/books?id=E0DhKd-9GEUC&pg=PA100&lpg=PA100&dq=philo+of+alexandria+and+cult+of+great+mother&source=bl&ots=Xc_bXwkj1G&sig=6cqTXcoKxKU3-4HE0f5KTIbJvQg&hl=en&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=philo%20of%20alexandria%20and%20cult%20of%20great%20mother&f=false  


Posted By: medenaywe
Date Posted: 29-Jan-2012 at 06:41
Statues of Great Mother were never part of ritual for true believers,even if some cults had derived from original and had created statues(that have insulted original!) as it looks today.Therefore there is "confusion" about:Whom did they pray to those days?In fact believers had not better object than Mother's himself.Rituals of pray have been preserved&practiced till the day i am posting this.
  Those words are known by all of us:
http://niv.scripturetext.com/exodus/20.htm - http://niv.scripturetext.com/exodus/20.htm
where did they come from?
You shall not make for yourself an idol in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. http://bible.cc/exodus/20-5.htm - 5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, http://bible.cc/exodus/20-6.htm - 6 but showing love to a thousand [generations] of those who love me and keep my commandments.





Posted By: Don Quixote
Date Posted: 29-Jan-2012 at 18:48
Originally posted by medenaywe

"Small tribe"?They were part of Ancient Egyptian civilization Cyrus!Rome had created image of small tribe as it looks now but language they have used from the beginning reveals me that "Arabs"&"Jews"&"Slavs" have belonged all inside Egyptian civilization.They have shared same syllabic language with same meaning of syllables and rules.Is this not enough?!?My statement does not deny other people existence there at all!Even some Persian words meaning could be translated using those rules&syllables!Turks also!I suppose that Mother Earth religion was most accepted among them those days.Religions that have followed it show us it with their similarities.


The Jews separated in like 4000 BC from the Akkadians /at which point the Hebrew was found to have been separated from Akkadian/,
http://www.ceremade.dauphine.fr/~ryder/NichollsRyderIWSM2011.pdf

in the way on which people separate and new tribes are started - an extended family left the Ur of the Chaldeans and stared roaming left and right, got into Egypt, became a border-defending tribe, later left Egypt and as a nomadic group wandered along for 40 yeas trying to strike a claim. Now, only a small nomadic group can do that, you don't have a whole empire of people on their feet beating the dust. How old they were is besides the point.

A nomadic groups on their feet cannot take chances, they have to have a very strong social bonds to survive, such strong bonds are stipulated with very staunch patriarchal order, such order makes for a severe partiarchal religion - this is my reasoning. I wouldn't put my faint in religious literature when we talk numbers - the Old Testament may be a guide in historical sense in general only, numbers are something very suspicious, being used for all kinds of propaganda; becides I doubt there had good statistics methods in a nomadic society we are talking about.


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Posted By: Don Quixote
Date Posted: 29-Jan-2012 at 18:56
Originally posted by medenaywe

As it turns out, the Virgin Mary is, like Jesus Christ, a mythical character, founded upon older goddesses. Following on the heels of goddesses such as Aphrodite, Astarte, Cybele, Demeter, Hathor, Inanna, Ishtar and Isis, Mary is "both virgin and mother, and, like many of them, she gives birth to a half-human, half-divine child, who dies and is reborn."
http://www.truthbeknown.com/mary.html - http://www.truthbeknown.com/mary.html

Jesus may well has been a historical character, people like him roaming around and calling themselves messiahs were not anything new; in which case after is death he was deified along the lines of the dying-and-resurrected-god - Dumuzi/Osiris/Dyonusos/etc, and his mother deified along the lines of the Great mother Goddess and her aspects - the female deities you are naming here.


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Posted By: Don Quixote
Date Posted: 29-Jan-2012 at 19:06
Originally posted by Centrix Vigilis

Originally posted by medenaywe

As it turns out, the Virgin Mary is, like Jesus Christ, a mythical character, founded upon older goddesses. Following on the heels of goddesses such as Aphrodite, Astarte, Cybele, Demeter, Hathor, Inanna, Ishtar and Isis, Mary is "both virgin and mother, and, like many of them, she gives birth to a half-human, half-divine child, who dies and is reborn."
http://www.truthbeknown.com/mary.html - http://www.truthbeknown.com/mary.html
 
Nonsense...3.4 billion Abrahamic faith followers reject this utterly. In fact this is the typical response of the atheists or revisionist attempting links with earlier paganistic or other ethnic-socio mythologies-theologies.
 
Scriptures (best available source) provide us with her existence in the genealogies Id there or in the apocryphal James..take your pick. She can legitimately claim an affiliation with both the House of Levi and David.

The numbers of people who believe in  a myth doesn't make this myth a reality; if only testifies that many people need to hold on to something that makes they feel good; this is nor here, not there, and not a historical proof of anything, no more that the fact that  some 40 millions Hinduist in India, Nepal and Balngladesh, plus many others believe that the god Ganesha had elephant head doesn't make the said Ganesha real and with elephant head.

All those genealogies are most probably fakes to make the Old Testament prophecies to stick to the deified human person Jesus. If Jesus was a real person, of course he had a mother, but she wasn't a virgin, nor inseminated from god by his word; she was just a normal woman, just like Jesus, if he existed, was a normal person, a moral teacher with good ideas, and he wasn't the only one who believed he was a messiah. The deifying came later.
Btw, I'm an agnosticSmile.


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Posted By: Don Quixote
Date Posted: 29-Jan-2012 at 19:36
Originally posted by Cryptic

Originally posted by Don Quixote


"...For I am the first and the last.
I am the honored one and the scorned one.
I am the whore and the holy one.
I am the wife and the virgin.
I am <the mother> and the daughter.
Thanks for posting this.  The imagery is quite beautiful, sort  of a feminine Alpha and Omega or I Am Who Am
You are most welcome, I'm glad you like it. It is really reminiscent of the "Apha and Omega" etc, in fact I think that the latter stemmed from the former. The understanding of the great Goddess as the beginning and the end is far older that Judaism, it stared during the Paleolithic, with the simple observation that women give birth, hence all life came from the female beginning, hence nature was deified in female form; late the same understanding turned toward the male God, for social reasons, IMHO; but the imagery was retained and pasted on the male god.

I think that the Gnostics tapped in very ancient layers of contemplation and understanding, because they combined all kinds of old and new religious notions and philosophical ideas; that's why they retained such a respect for the feminine principle.



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Posted By: medenaywe
Date Posted: 30-Jan-2012 at 01:59
Don,your map above shows us only how Bible had divided Hebrew people and nothing else.Main problem is even,did they call themselves Hebrew before?Names of tribes could be names of their leaders and nothing more.But we talk about religion predecessor of all:Great Mother or Mother Earth?Religions that have come after reminds me about Buddhism in India and it's purpose:Accept your destiny people and cast you belong to cause we are masters on Earth's soil!Big smileYes they have to approve someones rightness to power.



Posted By: Don Quixote
Date Posted: 30-Jan-2012 at 02:55
Originally posted by medenaywe

Don,your map above shows us only how Bible had divided Hebrew people and nothing else.Main problem is even,did they call themselves Hebrew before?Names of tribes could be names of their leaders and nothing more.But we talk about religion predecessor of all:Great Mother or Mother Earth?Religions that have come after reminds me about Buddhism in India and it's purpose:Accept your destiny people and cast you belong to cause we are masters on Earth's soil!Big smileYes they have to approve someones rightness to power.

What map? I didn't post a map, but a graphic that shows at what time Hebrew separated from Akkadian, which time is the supposed time of the separation of this tribe/family/whatever from the Akkad. I don't think they called themselves "Hebrew" at this time, Abraham wasn't a Hebrew yet, he was just a guy from Ur that decided to look otherwise for place to put his hat, for whatever reason.

I suspect that the first religion of all is exactly the Mother Earth/Great Goddess, because what else was there, but life and death, what else mattered in say, the Paleolithic, when the fertility cult female figures started to appear in the Asia Minor and Europe. Later religions appeared when people were able to think with symbols, such thinking wasn't necessary for the Mother Earth veneration, since it was based on direct observation.

The later religions whoever was involved had to receive an approval by the god/s so hey can rule, perform in the god's name, or simply exist; the cult of Great Mother didn't require such, as nature is accepting, as a female is, it gives or take, but it doesn't demand for the devotee to be worthy of approval, it requires simply to exist. However, some cults required a king to make a Hiero Gamos with the Great Mother, in order to be able to rule.

The Thracians supposedly had that, the king was considered a son of the Mother Goddess and he was supposed to wed her too, this is a very loaded with meanings sacred incest/not-incest, because the king was a son to nature, and a lover in the same time; this is not controversial really, because in a strict sense everything had been born by nature, even the lover one has. Fraser wrote on that a lot, I have to get him from the library and quote more sacred rites like that.

In Christianity the need a king to be accepted by the Church is actually repetition of this ritual - as the Chruch, Eklesia, was seen in the Middle Ages as a female /and Christ being wedded to her/; so coronation of a king by a religious authority is in essence a Hiero Gamos with the Church, this putting the ruler in the sacred place and sacred time, and receiving a approval to rule.





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Posted By: medenaywe
Date Posted: 30-Jan-2012 at 03:10
What map? I didn't post a map, but a graphic that shows at what time Hebrew separated from Akkadian, which time is the supposed time of the separation of this tribe/family/whatever from the Akkad. I don't think they called themselves "Hebrew" at this time, Abraham wasn't a Hebrew yet, he was just a guy from Ur that decided to look otherwise for place to put his hat, for whatever reason.
  Than graphic you posted above.I agree about the rest 100%.Smile


Posted By: Don Quixote
Date Posted: 30-Jan-2012 at 03:57
Originally posted by medenaywe

Than graphic you posted above.I agree about the rest 100%.Smile

I seeSmile. What do you disagree with the graph on? I got it from the Nichols/Ryder study I referred under the graph.


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Posted By: medenaywe
Date Posted: 30-Jan-2012 at 04:02
Where did he find it?Inside the Bible?How much does relevant statistic give us Bible?As for Noah and his animals collection i agree also:There had been at least two animals with different sexes but the rests were copy&paste compilation of elder texts with more or less known origins!Big smile(Except Noah had no extra powers
of course!)


Posted By: Don Quixote
Date Posted: 30-Jan-2012 at 04:18
Originally posted by medenaywe

Where did he find it?Inside the Bible?How did relevant statistic give us Bible?As for Noah and his animals collection i agree also:There had been at least two animals with different sexes but the rests were copy&paste compilation of elder texts with more or less known origins!Big smile(Except Noah had no extra powers
of course!)

No, the Bible has nothing to do with that. They did a Bayesian  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bayesian_inference_in_phylogeny - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bayesian_inference_in_phylogeny   linguistic analyses on the Semitic languages, this is like a genetic analyses of a language, with statistic and math formulas. I generally trust this methods, it had been used with many languages, Asian etc. Take a look at the study.



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Posted By: medenaywe
Date Posted: 30-Jan-2012 at 04:20
Ok than.Wait for my analyses,Don.You have some of them inside Origins of languages/General history.


Posted By: Don Quixote
Date Posted: 30-Jan-2012 at 20:26
I came upon some Christian imagery that seems to be lifted directly from the Great Mother imagery:

This is the Tree of life, a very ancient archetype, from Gulgamesh to the Christian cross' indeed here the Tree f life becomes that gross; and what is Eve on the left becomes the Ekllesia, the holy church of the right. Now, Eve is nothing but a demonised Great Mother Goddess, her very name means "life". Anyway, she is wearing bunch of grapes in front of her genitals /grapes producing wine, the life-giving liquid in the Dionysian rituals, and the  blood of Christ in the Christian ritual/, so the symbolism is clear here - the female nature, mother nature, producing life.

The same symbol is seen here, embroidered on the attire of the Pope:

So, the Pope carries one of the symbols of the Mother Goddess on himself. I lifted the images from this site http://www.irishoriginsofcivilization.com/appendices/trees.html - http://www.irishoriginsofcivilization.com/appendices/trees.html


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Posted By: Don Quixote
Date Posted: 30-Jan-2012 at 21:56
While researching Mary of Madgala for another thread and forum, I came upon this:
Inanna with a jar, 1800 B, Mari
Inanna or Ishtar with Jar and dress similar to Magdalene
Mary of Magdala with a jar, by Luca Singorelli
Mary Magdalene by Signorelli
The pose, dress and hands position is identical. Now, what was the jar for? Both Dumuzi and Jesus were resurrected, so the jar couldn't have had any ashes of them. Other painters portrayed Mary of Magdala with a jar also:
Rodjier van der Weiden

Bernardino Luini

Quentin Massis


Ambrosius Benson

all from 16 century, there are more pictures here  http://witcombe.sbc.edu/davincicode/magdalen-jar.html - http://witcombe.sbc.edu/davincicode/magdalen-jar.html
Nowadays the jar is identified with the Holy Graal, but such a notion wasn't yet in existence in Sumeria, from where the archetype came. Archeologists had found jars bearing the seal of Inanna
http://enenuru.net/html/misc/cityseals.htm - http://enenuru.net/html/misc/cityseals.htm   in archaic Ur; one seal, this one, was interpreted as uterus:
"

"27. This toponym was interpreted by M. Lambert, RA 64 (1970): 189, as either Umma or Akshak. Identification with Kesh was suggested by Green, ASJ 8 (1986); 77. Matthews, MSVO 2, 34-35, analyzes the grapheme in question as "two signs, perhaps the jar with lid." The "jar" is more likely a "womb," related formally to the "omega" symbol of Ninhursag = uterus with ovaries, ..." ibid.

Anyway, my impression is that the said jar was a symbol for female womb, which explains it why Inanna has it, she being the the archetypal Mother Goddess. I think I wrote here on me considering Mary of Magdala as another manifestation of the Mother Goddess, and the jar she is potrayed with roots for this connection. The idea that the Holy Graal was actually a baby born by Mary from Jesus plays into this too - jar=womb=Graal=baby.

Anyway, my bottom line is that Mary of Magdala is another archetypal image of the Great Mother Goddess; one that was seen like this in the early Christianity, like the Gnostic writings documented, and one that was pushed aside by the official Christianity that presented the Virgin Mary as such. Here I'm going to mention the line from the Gnostic "Thunder Perfect Mind" which says "I'm the Whore and the Virgin" - the  archetypal Mother-Goddess who gives-life-without- a spouse /unmarried women who have kids out of wedlock are in most cultures considered whores/, and because the mainstream Christianity so insisted on the Greko-Roman stoic idea of celibacy it had to split the image of the Mother-Goddess in 2 - the virgin and the whore. So, as a result, Mary of Magdala ended up as pronounced for a prostitute, in a homily by Pope Gregory the Great in 591, who mistook her for a prostitute in Luke; in 1969 the Vatican stated that she wasn't so.

Nevertheless, why was she accused in being  a prostitute, and potrayed for centuries in art like a such, why was that needed? It was needed, because the image of Mother Goddess needed it's both parts to function. It's striking that both the Virgin Mary and the Mary of Magdala had the same name; they were in fact the both sides of one and the same coin - the Mother Goddess, a whore and virgin, the beginning and the end. We humans start our lives in a jar=womb, and end up in a jar=jar-with-ashes=coffin. The Great Mother holds that in her hand, the jar, the womb and the coffin, the life and death, the beginning and the end. The Virgin was pictured with Jesus in her hands, which is the same, since Jesus was the life and death, beginning and end, alpha and omega; Mary of Magdala was pictured with a jar in her hands, which is the same. Hence, the Virgin Mary and Mary Magdalene are one and the same personage, the Great Mother Goddess.
Mary Magdalene with Alabaster Jar
Mary Magdalene with Alabaster Jar


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Posted By: medenaywe
Date Posted: 31-Jan-2012 at 01:14
Yes extended symbolism in further Christian church is more than obvious Don.Let us search further here.Smile


Posted By: medenaywe
Date Posted: 31-Jan-2012 at 06:34
From Womb You came in womb(Jar?) you go!Yes it is possible symbolic here for Mother!


Posted By: Don Quixote
Date Posted: 31-Jan-2012 at 23:05
The Christian image of the Virgin with a child is copied directly from images of the Great Mother Goddess in older traditions - my examples are with the Etruscan and Egyptian ones.
Etruscan Mother-Goddess and her child /far older iconography than the Christian one/ surrounded with the protection of the serpent - the last being one of the symbols of the Great Mother.

The Egyptian Rannut /an aspect of the Great Mother/ with her son Tem.

Rannut was goddess of fertility and harvest, sometimes presented as a snake. Anyway the snake was misinterpreted in  Christianity as something evil, and used to demonize Eve. The connection of Eve with the snake was very natural - Eve was a Mother Goddess, therefore the snake was supposed to be her symbol, her-other-self, and she offered wisdom, knowledge, which is power, not a sin; but Christianity read all this backwards, making the snake satan or whatever and a seducer; while in fact the snake was a protector. And of course the tree in the garden of Eden was the ancient Tree of Life that appears in Gilgamesh's story as "the Tree in Inanna's garden", with a snake living in the roots, and a bird in the branches:

"...The ki-sikil-lil-la-ke is associated with a serpent and a http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zu_%28mythology%29 - zu bird , http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lilith#cite_note-10 - [11] In Bilgames and the Netherworld, a http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Huluppu_tree&action=edit&redlink=1 - huluppu tree (willow) grows in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inanna - Inanna 's garden in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uruk - Uruk , whose wood she plans to use to build a new throne. After ten years of growth, she comes to harvest it and finds a serpent living at its base, a Zu bird raising young in its crown, and that a ki-sikil-lil-la-ke made a house in its trunk. Bilgames/Gilgamesh is said to have smitten the snake, and then the zu bird flew away to the mountains with its young, while the ki-sikil-lil-la-ke fearfully destroys its house and runs for the forest. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lilith#cite_note-11 - [12] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lilith#cite_note-12 - [13] ..." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lilith - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lilith


However, the image of the snake as protector and wisdom and as a part of the mother-goddess is an archetypal and therefore comes out in human thinking no matter if they realize it or not. This is "St. Bridgit and the Vision of Nativity" by Niccolo di Tommaso. The nativity scene is in a cave, the cave being the uterus of the Mother-Goddess, and there is a snakelike figure made by letters, /as long as I can see/ between Jesus and the virgin Mary.

This is the 'Annunciation" by Fra Angelico - the words are coming form the mouth of the angel toward Mary like 3 snakes; 3, like 7, is one of the sacred numbers since the Sumerians:

So, both the tree of life and the snake are images connected with the Great Mother Goddess, and they both entered the Christian tradition, albeit in a misdirected and misunderstood form. With the pose of the Virgin and Child, this makes 3 more images passed from the Mother-Goddess cult directly in Christianity.




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Posted By: medenaywe
Date Posted: 01-Feb-2012 at 03:34
Yes very convincing presentation of Divine features of new born God:Inside Mother's womb or cave!He is mother's child.People in my translation had called themselves mother's Don,cause of religious reasons and
they ruled Egypt during Ptolemy the Fifth(also before!).I suppose it was religious sign more than ethnicity.Ethnicity of Ptolemy's people was avatar of mine in singular,NaDeNaJVe.Their sign inside DeMoTiCo
is front slash part of this cross:SmilePlank that destroys symmetrical structure of cross.(Now days it is back slash those days was front slash,first sound every mother gives to her child making it not cries&dreams.)It is inside Cyrillic letter "I" that once sounded,The First Her!Smile


Posted By: medenaywe
Date Posted: 01-Feb-2012 at 08:46
As for 7 vowels that are here written,I claim about 8th one:(b)=(') voiceless vowel when you push air trough your nose.Let us see what did Egyptian priests pray to here:(I believe it was Egyptian main official religion!)
""in Egypt the priests, when singing hymns in praise of the gods, employ the 7 vowels which they utter in due succession and the sound of these letters is so euphonious that men listen to it in place of the flute and lyre" [ http://hermetic.com/pgm/self-identify.html#anchor1499672 - 20 ]"
http://hermetic.com/pgm/self-identify.html - http://hermetic.com/pgm/self-identify.html
 




Posted By: Don Quixote
Date Posted: 02-Feb-2012 at 00:23
Originally posted by medenaywe

Yes very convincing presentation of Divine features of new born God:Inside Mother's womb or cave!He is mother's child.People in my translation had called themselves mother's Don,cause of religious reasons and
they ruled Egypt during Ptolemy the Fifth(also before!).I suppose it was religious sign more than ethnicity.Ethnicity of Ptolemy's people was avatar of mine in singular,NaDeNaJVe.Their sign inside DeMoTiCo
is front slash part of this cross:SmilePlank that destroys symmetrical structure of cross.(Now days it is back slash those days was front slash,first sound every mother gives to her child making it not cries&dreams.)It is inside Cyrillic letter "I" that once sounded,The First Her!Smile

Was the plank something like that
http://sinaiticus.files.wordpress.com/2010/10/orthodox-cross1.png

This plank is inside the Slavic "И",  but the other way around; it's supposed to represent the foot brace that Jesus put his feet on, but it's kinda too long for only putting feet on it, so I'm looking at some possible other symbolic meaning to it. I was wondering form where that tradition came, and if it has something to do with the Gnostics; because Gnoctis ideas penetrated the Orthodox Christian church in what is now Bulgaria and created the alternative Christianity of the "Bogomils" /beloved of god/ , who are known in the West as the Cathars. Gnosticism started in Egypt with the "Corpus Hermeticus", AFAIK, combining different ideas, from  the Greek philosophy, Orphism, Egyptian unofficial-religious ideas. The Gnostics had retained much of the Mother-Goddess in their writings, I think I posted from "Thunder Perfect Mind" somewhere here; they saw the soul and wisdom as females, and in Bulgarian, Russian, Serbian languages those words have female gender; the Gnostic Christians considered Mary of Magdala as equal of the other apostles, and an apostle in her own right. The Bogomils/Cathars had gender equality, women were allowed to be teachers, I connect that with the Gnostic influence and the Mother-Goddess.

Bishop Hippolytus of Rome in his "Sintagma" written in 220 says that the Orphites, a group of Gnostic Christians, considered the snake as sacred, the same snake that was the symbol of Mother-Goddess, here he connects the snake directly with Eve, who was a mother-goddess:
"...Christ did not exist in the flesh (Christum autem non in substantia carnis fuisse; 2.4); that they extolled the serpent and preferred it to Christ (serpentem magnificant in tantum, ut ilium etiam ipsi Christo praeferant; 2.1); and that Christ imitated (imitor) Moses' serpent's sacred power (Num 21:6-9) saying, "And just as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up (John 3:14)" (Haer. 2:1). In addition, Eve is said to have believed the serpent, as if it had been God the Son (Eua quasi filio deo crediredat; 2.4). The name, Jesus, is not mentioned in the account. Epiphanius' account differs from that of Pseudo-Tertullian only in a few places. According to the former, the Ophites did not actually prefer the snake to Christ, but thought them identical (Pan. 37.1.2; 2.6; 6.5-6; 8.1). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ophites#cite_note-1 - [2] ..."  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ophites - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ophites


Those people who called themselves "mother's", do they happen to be connected with the Hermetic corpus in any way? Ptolemy V ruled 204-181, and the Hermetic Corpus was written in 1-2 century BC, the same time.

"...According to Gnostic mythology (in general) We, humanity, are existing in this realm because a member of the transcendent godhead, Sophia (Wisdom), desired to actualize her innate potential for creativity without the approval of her partner or divine consort...." http://www.iep.utm.edu/gnostic/#SH2a - http://www.iep.utm.edu/gnostic/#SH2a
Sophia, "wisdom" is another name for the Great Mother, and everyone is her son, hence Gnostics could be calking themselves "mother's people".
Btw, in Orthodox Christianity there is a female saint, Sophia, who is sometimes represented by herself, and somethins with her daughers Viara, Nadejda a Lubov - Faith, Hope and Love respectively.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/87/Ikona_SofiyaPremBozhiyaGRM.jpg
This is an orthodox icon of the Virgin Mary, but she is called "Sofia" /not Mary/, even though she has the baby Jesus with her; and the first 3 steps leading to her have written on them "Viara, Nadejda, Lubov" - Faith, Hope, Love respectively. So, for me this is the Great Mother, through her Gnostic image as Sofia, turning herself into the Virgin Mary.

This is another Gnostic Sofia, I have no idea from what time, I suppose German Hermetism - anyway she is carrying the blade of the Mother-Goddess, and it looks exactly like the face of an Egyptian obelisc.

The Gnostic Sophia gave birth to the Demiurge, who rules the word; the Freemasons call him "The Great Architect", since the Masons are a development of the Gnostics. So, Sophia is the Great Mother.

Here is the Gnostic Sophia on the Tree of Life - the tree of life being Mother-Goddess symbol
http://biblequestion.files.wordpress.com/2010/04/1-sophia-tree-gnostic.jpg

Those 2 pictures are from a medieval Troubadour lore - notice the woman among animals and trees /Great Mother Goddess who-created-wild-animals, trees as the trees on life/ the banner has the same line diagonal line like the Crthodox cross.

http://www.artship.org/images/inquiry/research/transmigration/image032.jpg
On this picture the woman is holding the horn of the unicorn with one hand, /just like the blade of the German Gnostic Sophia/, and with the other the post of the banner - so, she has 2 blades of the Great Mother. Also the lying down lion and the unicorn both have the same diagonal stripe on them like the banner and the Orthodox cross. All those stripes also look like snakes.

Tapestry of a maiden and a unicorn
So, for me, this is another Great Mother - with the trees of life, animals, snake-stripe-plank, and blade.





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Posted By: medenaywe
Date Posted: 02-Feb-2012 at 00:50
It is inside "sinove"/sinve(this is start form i believe!) that we use today for sons.N between si and ve.
Yes Don plank was once with opposite inclination as front slash,/,that's their sign!


Posted By: Don Quixote
Date Posted: 02-Feb-2012 at 01:18
Is it possible the plank/sound/inside the Slavic "I", that means "The First Her" to have come as a symbol for the Mother Goddess and to have the same meaning on the Orthodox cross and the above last 2 picture,  turned around?
This would make sense why it ended up on the Orthodox cross - since the cross is the Tree on Life, and the Tree of Life is the Sign of the Mother Goddess, then you have two Great Mother symbols at once - the tree and the slash.
Considering that Jesus was born from a woman, who became a manifestation of the Mother Goddess, and died on a cross that is the Tree of Life and a symbol for the same Mother Goddess, then he was born and died in the hands of the same Mother Goddess who is responsible for both life and death. Jesus being hugged by the Virgin Mary and crucified on the hands of the cross is the same symbology - the same like the jar of Inanna; he came to life and died in the hands of the Mother Goddess.

This is Inanna with the king of Nippur. There is a tree besides her and her outline shape is like one of a tree. And there is diagonal stick in her hand, like the plank on the orthodox cross.


Isis in a form of a tree, with the Pharaoh Tuthmoses sucking from her, I suppose in order to become officially her child and be accepted in the "sacred space".

Eve, the Mother Goddess, holding herself on the tree like being a part of it, giving the apple to Adam, with the snake above in the tree; animals are around since she is mother0nature who created them and takes care of them

The gob Geb being fed by the Lord of Food, who is a snake. In Egyptian mythology the primordial state of the world was  Amduat, a snake from which the sun and everything else came; so the snake as one that is pregnant with, therefore gives, whether physical life, which is impossible without food, or wisdom - spiritual life, food for the spirit is a very fitting companion.symbol for Mother-Goddess.


Christ hanging on the hands on the cross-tree, the symbol of the Great Mother Goddess - Crucifixion by Fra Angelico

In this Crucifixion of St. Andrew by Carlo Braccesco St. Andrew is crucified directly onto a tree, confirming that the symbol of a  cross is nothing but a tree, the tree of life.

Ecclesia, Church, potrayed as Mother-Goddess - she has staff-blade in her right hand, and water in streams coming out of her to those who are thirsty; so she is Sophia too, life-giving wisdom.




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Posted By: medenaywe
Date Posted: 02-Feb-2012 at 01:30
/,sign more than obvious,symbolize mother's embrace for his child!She embraces us all,our mother.SmileAs for
Her blade,I believe obelisks and pyramids(top of the obelisk buried deep under ground),had been symbols of Goddess.Her hands are beneath the ground but peak of the blade rises above and reminds us about her power.


Posted By: Don Quixote
Date Posted: 02-Feb-2012 at 02:36
Originally posted by medenaywe

It is inside "sinove"/sinve(this is start form i believe!) that we use today for sons.N between si and ve.
Yes Don plank was once with opposite inclination as front slash,/,that's their sign!

In Bulgarian "sin" is "son", with "sinove" as the plural. And "V" is the sign for the Great Feminine /Mother-Goddess again/, "V" also is embroidered on the left side of the sacred Mormon underwear /don't laugh hereDead/, the Mormons are a branch of the Gnostics, since they came from the Freemasons, Joseph Smith was a Freemason and incorporated many Gnostic ideas in the LDC church.

"V" was documented in the Upper Danube script, from the Upper Paleolithic  http://www.prehistory.it/ftp/inventory/danube_script/danube_script_01.htm - http://www.prehistory.it/ftp/inventory/danube_script/danube_script_01.htm   /this link doesn't allow me to copy/. "V" was the most common sign of figurines, spindle whorles, pottery; Gumbitas connects it with the "Bird Goddess", which is, I suppose, an aspect of the Great Mother. It's a very ancient sign anyway. In the Chauvet cave:
"... The decoration of the overhang includes a depiction of a “Venus” figure.  In short, a Venus figure was that of a woman, and the depiction of her pubic region by the portrayal of a triangle or the letter “V” was used.  Near the Venus exists a mammoth and two felines.  Above the Venus figure was the composite of a man-bison, or “Sorcerer.” It is believed that the Venus was not only the earliest painting.  As an interesting observation, the other figures near her were never superimposed.  ..."  http://www.students.sbc.edu/ogborn03/prehistoricart.htm - http://www.students.sbc.edu/ogborn03/prehistoricart.htm

So, the Great Mother was on the ceiling, like overwatching everything, with animals around her, because she had created them , and she was 'commanding" the other figures, that's why they weren't superimposed.   There are quite a few "V" on figurines in this book  http://books.google.com/books?id=7DfI39EDbMcC&pg=PA6&lpg=PA6&dq=prehistory+figurines+with+the+V+sign&source=bl&ots=D34ERpOuAZ&sig=y7KIrS1Ra4w3paR8Hr5PQam8hJo&hl=en&sa=X&ei=XjwqT9fjEfLXiQLd2eifCg&ved=0CC4Q6AEwAzgK#v=onepage&q=prehistory%20figurines%20with%20the%20V%20sign&f=false - http://books.google.com/books?id=7DfI39EDbMcC&pg=PA6&lpg=PA6&dq=prehistory+figurines+with+the+V+sign&source=bl&ots=D34ERpOuAZ&sig=y7KIrS1Ra4w3paR8Hr5PQam8hJo&hl=en&sa=X&ei=XjwqT9fjEfLXiQLd2eifCg&ved=0CC4Q6AEwAzgK#v=onepage&q=prehistory%20figurines%20with%20the%20V%20sign&f=false

Anyway, "V" is made by 2  "/" that meet each other; if "/" is "mother's hands", then  "V" that is made from 2 such would be really Great Feminine/Mother, it makes sense.


Where the guys with the "/" sign Gnostics by any chance? or maybe the Gnostics started from them? What were they called, if it's not a secret?


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Posted By: medenaywe
Date Posted: 02-Feb-2012 at 02:39
They were founders of Egyptian civilization Don,they are our ancestors.Smile
They call themselves NaDeNaJVe,it sounds as Danayans from Iliad and Odyssey.Our ancestors were actors of Troy.Someone have really distorted history.
will repeat again my avatar meaning:NaDeNaJVe=(You/He/she/it) offer/s from Deity perfect,that's more than Ten Commandments Don,much more.


Posted By: Don Quixote
Date Posted: 02-Feb-2012 at 02:47
You mean that the guys with "/" founded the Egyptian civilization and kept as some kind of religious brotherhood for like 3000 years till the time of Ptolemy V? Were they  priests, or Pharaohs? Did they write "Corpus Hermeticum"?
Do you mean that Trojans founded the Egyptian civilization?
I admit, this sounds very interesting.
"...(The "Danaói" of the Iliad, on the other hand, must be identical with the inhabitants of "Danaya," a northern kingdom described in Egyptian documents of the fourteenth century B.C.)..."
http://www.archaeology.org/0405/etc/troy2.html - http://www.archaeology.org/0405/etc/troy2.html

I didn't know the 14 century BC Egyptians documented Troy. But if Trojans made it to Egypt with other ideas, like Orphism, this can explain why Corpus Hermeticum has such unexpected for Egypt ideas in it, like metempsychosis.


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Posted By: medenaywe
Date Posted: 02-Feb-2012 at 03:13
You tel me Don,their name sounds me like it.I have only sounds on stone that sounds similar with this name only?!?!?In every from 32 lines this name is written as ethnic mark(also religious concept!) and / as religious mark!


Posted By: Don Quixote
Date Posted: 02-Feb-2012 at 03:20
Originally posted by medenaywe

You tel me Don,their name sounds me like it.I have only sounds on stone that sounds similar with this name only?!?!?In every from 32 lines this name is written as ethnic mark(also religious concept!) and / as religious mark!

I have to admit, it sounds like that. What is the document you are working with, if it's not a secret?
This is very interesting, I have to start researching for more info tomorrow, now I have to go to bed, passing midnight hereSleepy. Good night, worldSmile
Why did the last posts all of a sudden go on the first pageConfused? Is this some fluke of my laptop?


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Posted By: medenaywe
Date Posted: 02-Feb-2012 at 03:21
Rosetta stone Demotic texts.I just want to say post mortem to Champollion this words in my book:
"The Truth is in the  middle always"LOL.
This The Stone:
http://www.freemaninstitute.com/rosettastone.htm - http://www.freemaninstitute.com/rosettastone.htm


Posted By: medenaywe
Date Posted: 02-Feb-2012 at 05:59
/=N,sounds as,every mother sounds to her baby,making it calms&dreams!NNNN...NNNN...Nn..Big smile


Posted By: medenaywe
Date Posted: 02-Feb-2012 at 08:27
Check my topics about Rome&Byzantine Empires.Truth has to be near it.Aliens were other possible solution
of course!Wink


Posted By: medenaywe
Date Posted: 02-Feb-2012 at 08:56
"(The "Danaói" of the Iliad, on the other hand, must be identical with the inhabitants of "Danaya," a northern kingdom described in Egyptian documents of the fourteenth century B.C.)..."
Yes they call themselves Danyans,from Misir's Uppers/Heavens/Skies!Big smile


Posted By: Don Quixote
Date Posted: 02-Feb-2012 at 22:35
Originally posted by medenaywe

Rosetta stone Demotic texts.I just want to say post mortem to Champollion this words in my book:
"The Truth is in the  middle always"LOL.
This The Stone:
http://www.freemaninstitute.com/rosettastone.htm - http://www.freemaninstitute.com/rosettastone.htm

You know, I'm learning a little ancient Greek, it's not much, but with a dictionary and a grammar I can fight a translation, so if I find a picture of the Greek text I can work on it and later compare with your translation from Demotic, and see if I'm getting the Danayans there. You interested in that? I won't want any place in your bookSmile, I just got interested in the subject, because Greeks/Trojans getting to Egypt may explain the Orphic metempsychosis in the Hermetic Corpus, something I'm currently working on.


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Posted By: Don Quixote
Date Posted: 03-Feb-2012 at 00:11
The Egyptian goddesses Hathor - love, joy, motherhood and music
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/47/Hathor.svg">File:Hathor.svg
And Sekhmet - the terrible warrior-Goddess who created the desert with her fiery breath - are actually the 2 sides of the Great Mother Goddess Hathor in her benevolent and Sekhmet in her terrible aspect. They presented in the same way -  the same sun-disk with a snake and teh same staff/blade in one hand, the same cross-looking amulet in the other hand.
  • http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Sekhmet.svg#file - File
  • http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Sekhmet.svg#filehistory - File history
  • http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Sekhmet.svg#filelinks - File usage
  • http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Sekhmet.svg#globalusage - Global file usage
  • http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Sekhmet.svg#metadata - Metadata
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/31/Sekhmet.svg">File:Sekhmet.svg
Hathor
http://www.orderwhitemoon.org/goddess/Hathor/Hathor_45.jpg

Virgin Mary - the sun-disk is still here, under another name


Virgin Mary from Seville - the sun-disk is still there


Hathor with Horus

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/33/Isis-Hathor_giving_milk_to_horus-MBA_Lyon_H1398-IMG_0175-white.jpg
Mary and baby Jesus
Virgin Mary With Baby Jesus

Hathor with Horus and the sun-dick
http://www.valeriebarrow.com/images/isis-horus.jpg
Virgin Mary with Jesus - the sun-disk is there and the same body position like the statue of Hathor



Hathor, little Horus and the father of Horus

http://www.crystalinks.com/osirishorusisis.jpg

Mary, Jesus and Joseph - look at the staff on the hands of Joseph, the same like the staff of the father of Horus
http://www.freefoto.com/images/90/04/90_04_50---Nativity-Scene_web.jpg
In fact, the sages here have a hairdress-thing adn staff like the father of Horus
http://cache2.artprintimages.com/p/LRG/37/3776/Q3GIF00Z/art-print/jon-mcnaughton-nativity.jpg

Hathor was identified with Inanna, she is the Mother-Goddess /with Sekhmet being her terrible aspect/, and her iconography with the sun-disc was accepted in the Virgin Mary with halo. So, the halo behind the head of the Virgin is the sun-disk of the Egyptian Mother-Goddess - which makes sense because the Virgin is the mother-Goddess.


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Posted By: medenaywe
Date Posted: 03-Feb-2012 at 01:15
What did baptism look like in Mother Earth time?What does it use Christian church today during this holly ritual?Water!Jordan tells us about it:From temple sprout accepts(agrees) mother/s!New member of this ancient cult had entered water and could be baptized.
P.S.Don Demotic is syllabic language so we use same syllables now in our words.That's my work in Origins of languages.As for Phoenician text on stone you will help me!(Greek alphabet text)But first I need photo of that. 


Posted By: Don Quixote
Date Posted: 03-Feb-2012 at 01:26
Thanks, medenaywe!Smile
I found a picture of the stone with the text frontally, and I can make a copy, then with a magnifying glass I can see the letters and write them on a piece of paper. The hard part would be how the break the text in words, because the Greeks wrote with capitale letters, and no distance between the words, no comas, so I suppose more than one way of breaking them is possible, and hence different people can see different words in it.
 That's why i need 1:1 good photo of text!I separate sentences by logic now.But there are "dots" on stone i believe cause Demotic insists on logic first.Bat Creek script shows me very ingenious solution for dot without
a sign.Big smileWill show you example:Don reads GreekHe needs no vocabulary for itHe just need  good photo of script.Capishe?


Posted By: medenaywe
Date Posted: 03-Feb-2012 at 02:05
This is the temple of Great Mother as it says "From origin nest"=Water!Ok Don!Let you work your job now.



Posted By: Don Quixote
Date Posted: 03-Feb-2012 at 03:25
The first baptism with water, AFAIK, was the one on the celebration of the Thracian Great Mother Cotys - those baptised were called "baptai". But I wrote so much on Cotys on the thread about her, and on the Origin of Language thread just now, that I kinda ran out of relevant material for another post here on her.Cry
The Thracian treasures abound with different in size and beautiful golden and silver vessels, I suppose some of them may have been used in baptism of initiates to Cotys
http://images.ibox.bg/2007/02/10/rogozen/430x355.gif

http://tihonart.com/wp-content/gallery/phiale-with-scene-from-jug-rhyton/dsci0158.jpg

I'll start working on the text, bro, and I'm going to inform you when I come up with something.Smile




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Posted By: medenaywe
Date Posted: 03-Feb-2012 at 04:05
Prediction was predicted on ball or just early in the morning on Sun reflection in nearest lake&pool,Don?I do not believe there was Crystal ball in sorcerers hands indeed.Big smile


Posted By: medenaywe
Date Posted: 03-Feb-2012 at 15:16
Isis:From first her,readiness(speech*) presents!(Which Goddess name is not spoken here!)(Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain; for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.)Is this means Isis was not supreme Goddess in Egyptian's heavens?Even Her name does not mentions the Goddess name.In my text Isis is NaANaNeTa,OSiRiS NaANaNeCa...Both words are Danayan's words which means that Alexander's people in Egypt used same language as Egyptians,even if names of the Gods&Goddess in Macedon were not the same.But main goddess was.She is most used syllable in text,She is plural,She pluralizes all on earth's surface.Big smile
* depends on phonetics,si or zi.



Posted By: Don Quixote
Date Posted: 04-Feb-2012 at 01:44
Originally posted by medenaywe

Prediction was predicted on ball or just early in the morning on Sun reflection in nearest lake&pool,Don?I do not believe there was Crystal ball in sorcerers hands indeed.Big smile

The lake would make sense - or a sacred ball full with water. many of the Thracian bowls are covered with scared images from inside the bowl - why was that done, any other liquid but water would render the image invisible. That some of then could be used for predicting, filled with water, and  possibly something that makes images makes sense to me. Here some sacred gold bowls with pictures in them /gold was sacred in Thracia, only for kings and priestly use/:
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_KugpuHRwBo0/TQISxzAL5MI/AAAAAAAAAMs/6Nqi4GpvFdg/s640/thracian_treasure_5thcBC_plovdiv.jpg

A shallow bowl like the one with the 2 handles seems to me to be handy one to fill it with water from some sacred lake of stream hold it by the handles and look in it to see what figures the water makes over the pictures on the bottom. Later along the timeline this image of bowl filled with water may have gone in the collective memory as a "Crystal ball" -  which is quite close to a bowl with water, really.

In Bulgaria is very common after one drinks coffee /which every Bulgarian does like 5-6 times a day/ the cup to be upturned, and then one looks at the images the coffee sediment made, and tries to make out the figures, most women do that with gusto. It's possible this custom to be a remnant of older traditions of predicting, that were once sacred.

I have no info about how the oracle of Dionysus in Thracia was predicting, give me couple of days and I'll see what I can dig up from the net about thatSmile.


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Posted By: medenaywe
Date Posted: 04-Feb-2012 at 02:06
Don,Sorcerers on Balkan area still use it for spells and courses.It is enough a metal plate to have,filled with
water.What does priest uses during his prays at our homes?He needs a plate with water,basil  and candle!SmileThan we keep the water for bath and drink!


Posted By: Don Quixote
Date Posted: 04-Feb-2012 at 02:43
Originally posted by medenaywe

Isis:From first her,readiness(speech*) presents!(Which Goddess name is not spoken here!)(Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain; for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.)Is this means Isis was not supreme Goddess in Egyptian's heavens?Even Her name does not mentions the Goddess name.In my text Isis is NaANaNeTa,OSiRiS NaANaNeCa...Both words are Danayan's words which means that Alexander's people in Egypt used same language as Egyptians,even if names of the Gods&Goddess in Macedon were not the same.But main goddess was.She is most used syllable in text,She is plural,She pluralizes all on earth's surface.Big smile
* depends on phonetics,si or zi.

Isis became one of the main goddesses in Hellenistic time, but she existed from the Pre-Dynastic time, prior to 3100 BC.
 So, her cult is very old, it came about with those of Osiris, her brother and husband. After Osiris was killed and Set and cut to pieces Isis found him piece by piece and brought him to life - she gave him life. Isis was born from Geb /Earth, male/ and Nut /Sky, female/, hence from the primary elements, like Hera, Athena, and Demeter were born by Gaia /Earth/ and Uranus /Sky/. Now, Hera, Athena and Demeter are an image of the Mother Goddess split in her 3 aspects /Mother, Wisdom, Fruition/Death/, the Greeks didn't keep the Mother Goddess in one holistic image, like the Thracians did with Cotys, they split her in aspects.
The Egyptians did the same - the split the Mother-Goddess in Isis and Sekhmet. Isis was late identified with Hathor, and hence with the mother of Horus.

So, it's not un-typical thing the Mother-Goddess to be not-the-superior divinity in one culture's pantheon - in Vedic India the Mother Goddess was also split in Kali and Parvati, the latter wife of Shiva, and as such not the superior divinity; but her cult goes back to the Indus Valley civilization. My guess is that all Mother-Goddesses were worshiped as fertility goddesses in the Paleolithic, and were "demoted" when the human societies became more complicated, richer and patriarchal; I suspect before this point they were gender-equal.

Most of the modern tribes of Aborigines who retained way of life closer to the Paleolithic/Neolithic have gender equality, and some of them are matriarchal. So, even though I don't root for some universal matriarchal organization during the Paleolithic, I think there was gender equality, and cult to fertility Goddesses - Great Mothers. Later they became demoted, were given parents and spouses, were "tamed" in a way, but they retained powerful positing in the pantheons of the respective cultures they were worshiped in.

I suspect that Osiris and Isis are Dumuzi and Inanna; Dumuzi being Adonis, who was enjoying a great respect in Anatolia, from where he got In Greece as Dionysus. Dionysus was the most respected god in Macedon, and drinking was they way to gain communion with him, that;s why Macedonians drank like crazy undiluted wine and were despised by other Greeks for that; because they didn't understand that to dilute the wine, which was equivalent of the life-blood of the cosmos, the world, and everything alive, to dilute it was to commit  disrespect toward the magic and divinity of life.

Alexander of Macedon was drinking/commuting with Dionysus all the time, and the more problems he had, the more he drank so to gain a insight how to deal with them. Btw, this also sunk in the collective unconscious, and the Bulgarians, Macedonians and Northern Greeks are known with their heavy drinking; and Dionysus is a part of the Christian tradition as St. Triphon the Pruner /guardian-of-wines/, on whose day everyone in Bulgaria gets blind drunkDead. Dionysus though didn't get a wife, and I suspect Inanna turned in Cotys, the female Dionysus. Some Greek city-states, like Athens and Corinth, took her from the Thracians and had her festivals.

So, the worship of Osiris and Isis, and Dionysus and Cotys and Inanna and Dumuz follow the same tradition, and that they represent the same ideas is not strange, becaue peopel tend to think in relatively the same terms, all cultures I know of have a Mother-Goddess in some form. Supposedly the original name of Isis was Aset, which I can to some point connect with NaAnaNeta. I've heard of an ancient Macedonian Goddess named Modea, a fertility goddess, but I haven't research her. Nevertheless she seems to have been the Macedonian Mother Goddess, and I heard that she was the supreme divinity in the Macedonian pantheon, and a local one, because AFAIK the Macedonians since 4th century BC were worshiping Greek divinities; s since that time they accepted, at least officially, the split split mother-Goddess' image of the Greek pantheon. Alexander sacrificed mostly to Athena, as far as I know.



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Posted By: Don Quixote
Date Posted: 04-Feb-2012 at 02:53
Originally posted by medenaywe

Don,Sorcerers on Balkan area still use it for spells and courses.It is enough a metal plate to have,filled with
water.What does priest use during his prays at our homes?He needs a plate with water,basil  and candle!Smile
Than we keep the water for bath and drink!

That's right, the Orthodox priests are frequestly called to sprinkle water on new homes, when one buys an icon it's sprinkled on, when one goes to a liturgy he/she is sprinkled on, etc, from a sacred silver bowl with small bouquet of basil or flowers. The bouquet represents the Tree of Life; and the idea is to "baptize" whoever and whatever so it' put in the sacred space. Some people rellay take such "svetena voda" /holy water/ for drink, even though I don't remember to have heard anyone to have used it for bathing. As for modern sorcerers...the so called "Gypsy sorcerers" are quite popular in Bulgaria, but I have no idea what they used, I've heard about beans...but I have a book on Gypsy sorcery, i can look in to see about any divination with water.

How come you know so much about the Balkans, medenaywe, if it's not a secret? How many languages do you use anyway, you throw here random words from like a half of dozen languages, several Slavic between them...not that I'm complaining, of course, just curiousSmile.

Btw, I made the copy of the picture of the stone, but it's kinda smudged, I don't know how usable it'll be; I'll try tomorrow to see if I can make out letters with my magnifying glass,....or with my microscope, if the first doesn't give me the desired size.


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Posted By: medenaywe
Date Posted: 04-Feb-2012 at 03:01
Modea or better NaMoDeA=Offer to *Womb Deity victim!Egyptians call Isis NaANaNeTa,Macedon's Deity equivalent was L'ChA=From Spark Flame,Osiris equivalent was Dze=From foot answer.Isis was some kind of Goddess of Fire&Flame(?),Osiris equals with further known remake"Li" and Sun God/Snake God was  called "Dze" further remake "Zeus"!But I can translate NaANaNeTa&NaANaNeCa also using same rules&syllables here Don!They are ligatures,signs one on top of other,so they will be posted in Origins of language also.
*This is Great Mother Goddess=womb.Sounds have reason.Everything means something here.


Posted By: medenaywe
Date Posted: 04-Feb-2012 at 03:04
Literary we are all NaMoDeA DeCaMo!Children of Great Mother,Goddess!LOL


Posted By: medenaywe
Date Posted: 04-Feb-2012 at 08:24
It depends of dating.Maybe couple of millions years before they did it.Big smile


Posted By: medenaywe
Date Posted: 04-Feb-2012 at 13:05
"Btw, I made the copy of the picture of the stone, but it's kinda smudged, I don't know how usable it'll be; I'll try tomorrow to see if I can make out letters with my magnifying glass,....or with my microscope, if the first doesn't give me the desired size."
 Yes it is.It's hard for work with geometrical signs almost impossible with Demotico,especially if geometry hides information.SmileI need 1:1 ratio photo of stone.That's cause of original text translation.All the rest is going on further.



Posted By: medenaywe
Date Posted: 04-Feb-2012 at 13:47
You can not make original translation without errors but i translate it.I am looking 1:1 photo cause of errors
onlyLOL


Posted By: medenaywe
Date Posted: 04-Feb-2012 at 14:20
Who did Demotic before?No one.Script that use "Greek" letters they did.Hieroglyphic inscriptions partly.They have compared Greek with Hieroglyphic that does not gives us original content in hieroglyphic text.Demotic is very precise.It speaks about origins of Pharaoh in first 10 lines,Titles and situation in Egypt cause of battle in Zama in 202B.C. and arrangements about funeral in last 10-12 lines.I believe can recover whole language using those 32 lines and languages ancestors today!Here is link about "Greek" letters text:
http://www.freemaninstitute.com/rosettatext.htm - http://www.freemaninstitute.com/rosettatext.htm
   


Posted By: Don Quixote
Date Posted: 04-Feb-2012 at 16:07
Originally posted by medenaywe

"Btw, I made the copy of the picture of the stone, but it's kinda smudged, I don't know how usable it'll be; I'll try tomorrow to see if I can make out letters with my magnifying glass,....or with my microscope, if the first doesn't give me the desired size."
 Yes it is.It's hard for work with geometrical signs almost impossible with Demotico,especially if geometry hides information.SmileI need 1:1 ratio photo of stone.That's cause of original text translation.All the rest is going on further.

I have to admit, my idea is not working and I failedCryAngryDead. With magnifying all I see is the grains of the paper, but not the letters. How can I obtain a good picture of the Greek text of the stone, medenaywe?


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Posted By: medenaywe
Date Posted: 04-Feb-2012 at 16:13
Till now i have finished syllables,most of them,their meaning most of them,signs that represent them...Lot of grammar.Pictures are disaster as someone want to hide something in purpose.Will send you a message Don!For the rest!Cause here we talk about Great Mother!We really do it well. 


Posted By: Don Quixote
Date Posted: 05-Feb-2012 at 00:33
 I don't think we have to look at the sky for the"V"sign, I doubt the humans in the Paleolithic were able to think so logically as to connect dots into pictures, they were looking around them, and at themselves, and the human body is full with Vs. "V" is that a woman's thighs make to accept a man, and what her legs make to lock on her lover's back; "V" is what her legs make when she is giving birth; "V" is what her arms make to embrace a lover or a child, and what her fingers make when she slaps this child on the face to stop it from doing something ultimately stupid; "V" is what hands of lovers make when they interlock, and what a man's arm make when hi fights or beats' "V"s are in the corners of a mouth half open for a scream or a kiss, or a shout, or a curse, and in the corners of an eye - the organ we rely the most when observing the reality about us. I suspect that "V' became a sign of the Great Feminine/Great Mother because women simply have more "V"s on them.

That's why I think "V" is the most observed sign on the Danube script, and the zigzag is only a row of "V"s; I remember when on archeological dig in the town, Drama, in Bulgaria, excavating the layesr of Karanovo's Neolithic, 6300-5400 BC   , I was impressed with cheese-making bowls with holes that were adorned with rows of "V"s, supposedly this mark was the easiest one to make, that's why it was so much used. But I saw this decoration only on the cheese bowls, not on the regular ceramic pieces from other kitchen vessels, why" I suspect because the cheese is created from milk, brought along, given birth to, hence the sign of fertility was written around the bowl, like a symbolic way securing this act of creation, of birth being successful. Anyway, here some stamps from Karanovo that is full with "V"s
http://www.institutet-science.com/artefacts/kara11big.jpg
Thai site claims that those signs are pictographs identical with Egyptian hierogliphics  http://www.institutet-science.com/en/karanovoe.php - http://www.institutet-science.com/en/karanovoe.php   if this is so or not I have no idea, but the "V"s are there anyway.
This is the Bird Goddess Gumbitas talks about, with the "V" decorations:
The 'V'  is reported to be a shorthand version of the pubic triangle (represents shape of the fallopian tubes) which is found on many bird figurines.  It first arose in the Thessalian Sesklo culture in the 7th millennium B.C. on painted pottery, and is also found in early Starcevo and Karanovo cultures (Balkans) during the 6th millennium. ..."
http://uts.cc.utexas.edu/%7Egloria/Goddess.html - http://uts.cc.utexas.edu/~gloria/Goddess.html

According to Gumbitas the Bird Goddess and the Snake were the most frequent representations in the
Upper Paleolithic in Europe  http://books.google.com/books?id=zKFFOoPlyjIC&pg=PA145&lpg=PA145&dq=v+sign+of+the+great+feminine&source=bl&ots=2aUE7of4xd&sig=GGTKPuARQwY-Cziwk0OB0n_63Wg&hl=en&sa=X&ei=hxUuT53lJ-vViALU86zbCg&ved=0CB0Q6AEwADgK#v=onepage&q=v%20sign%20of%20the%20great%20feminine&f=false - http://books.google.com/books?id=zKFFOoPlyjIC&pg=PA145&lpg=PA145&dq=v+sign+of+the+great+feminine&source=bl&ots=2aUE7of4xd&sig=GGTKPuARQwY-Cziwk0OB0n_63Wg&hl=en&sa=X&ei=hxUuT53lJ-vViALU86zbCg&ved=0CB0Q6AEwADgK#v=onepage&q=v%20sign%20of%20the%20great%20feminine&f=false

a
nd they were representations of the feminine principle /the Great Mother Goddess, in other words/.

The top of the pyramids is "V" shaped, as well the royal Thracian tombs that were build to resemble a cave; as is the top pf the obelisks, and at this point I on verge of agreeing with medenaywe that the pyramids may be seen as buried obelisks; and each side of the obelisk can be seen as a blade /I did bunch of thinking and this shape really resembles more the blade of a sword that a phallus, like the most widespread interpretation of the obelisk, AFAIK, is/.

The Masons are known to use "V" a lot, that's from where the Mormons got it  and use it in sacred rites and embroider it on their sacred garments, right where the heart is; which reminds me that the heart was considered to be the sat of the soul, and the soul has been seen by the Gnostics as feminine. In Bulgarian and Russian "soul", "love", as well as "death" are in feminine gender, which again can be seen as a cultural remnant of the Great Mother principle, Cotys being at the same time love, life and death, as every holistic Great Mother is. When Tertulian said "The soul is by nature Christian" in the Latin he used it's all in feminine gender "Anima naturaliter Christiana est". I connect this with the archetype set by the Great Mother Goddess who was love-that-creates-life, the soul that one has, and death that "marries' to everyone at the end  - everyone dies. There is this Bulgarian and Macedonian image of dying as marrying to Death, who is a woman; making love to death is to die; hence death is making love to the Mother Goddess, a very ancient archetype whose remnants can be followed even today in the modern cultures of the area.




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Posted By: medenaywe
Date Posted: 05-Feb-2012 at 05:12
What does about incense use in Christian churches?Where did it origin?Which former religion did use it?
Read about use of incense in Ancient Egypt:
http://www.ancientegyptonline.co.uk/incenseperfume.html - http://www.ancientegyptonline.co.uk/incenseperfume.html













Posted By: Sidney
Date Posted: 05-Feb-2012 at 07:51
The Christian use of incense came from the Jewish use of incense, which came from the Egyptian use of incense, who got it from the land of Punt.


Posted By: medenaywe
Date Posted: 05-Feb-2012 at 08:01
What does it means Punt,Sidney?SmileLand or ancient terminology word?
P.S.
Follow the arrow of time,Sidney.First was Egypt.Nobody had mentioned Hebrew people in Egyptian scripts.Canaan word existed in Bible.What did mean really?(From freedom mother's,dreams/shelters!)If
phonetics do not change it.
         Egyptian scripts told us about people from place where they live also people of leader that was in charge there.Bible had separated people that spoke same languages in tribes. 


Posted By: medenaywe
Date Posted: 05-Feb-2012 at 08:52
Here are all uses of incense in Bible:
http://www.bible-topics.com/Incense.html - http://www.bible-topics.com/Incense.html
Look here about temple of Magna Mater in Rome:
"This much sounds very Roman, but there were at least two unusual features about the worship of the Great Mother. First, her cult-image was not a statue but simply a black stone."(Was this connected with stone in Meka?_)
http://www.romereborn.virginia.edu/ge/TS-041-PA.html - http://www.romereborn.virginia.edu/ge/TS-041-PA.html


Posted By: Don Quixote
Date Posted: 05-Feb-2012 at 14:58
Originally posted by Sidney

The Christian use of incense came from the Jewish use of incense, which came from the Egyptian use of incense, who got it from the land of Punt.

The use of incense is older than Egypt, the Sumerian used it, imported from Arabia. The Babylonians used it n divination  http://books.google.com/books?id=-PsUAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA16&dq=Babylonians+used+incense&cd=3&hl=en#v=onepage&q=Babylonians%20used%20incense&f=false - http://books.google.com/books?id=-PsUAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA16&dq=Babylonians+used+incense&cd=3&hl=en#v=onepage&q=Babylonians%20used%20incense&f=false
The Jews separated from the Akkadians in 4000 BC, hence they separated from culture that used incense for some time at this point.


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