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French Mutiny

Printed From: History Community ~ All Empires
Category: Regional History or Period History
Forum Name: Modern History
Forum Discription: World History from 1918 to the 21st century.
URL: http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=31
Printed Date: 19-Apr-2024 at 23:33
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 9.56a - http://www.webwizforums.com


Topic: French Mutiny
Posted By: Imperatore Dario I
Subject: French Mutiny
Date Posted: 12-Aug-2004 at 10:15
If the Germans would have discovered about the French army rebellion in 1917, and had attacked, would it mean the end of the Allies?

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“Let there be a race of Romans with the strength of Italian courage.”- Virgil's Aeneid



Replies:
Posted By: Tobodai
Date Posted: 12-Aug-2004 at 15:09
I dont think an end to the allies because the French mutinied because they were being thrown into human waves suicide attacks.  If the Germans attacked during the mutiny and were advancing on Paris though I believe the Frenchies would realize the threat and fight hard against the German encroachment.

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"the people are nothing but a great beast...
I have learned to hold popular opinion of no value."
-Alexander Hamilton


Posted By: Genghis
Date Posted: 12-Aug-2004 at 16:51
I believe that by 1917, it would have taken something as catastrophic as revolutions in Britain and France to effect a German victory.  Germany was simply too exhausted at that point to defeat the French or British without expending too many resources which would make their gains backfire and ensure an even greater defeat.

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Member of IAEA


Posted By: Genghis
Date Posted: 12-Aug-2004 at 17:06

From what I have read, after 1917, both Britain and France were beating Germany in terms of production.  Turkey was also about to fall, thus unhinging the German's southern flank.  German rolling stock was also insufficient to carry the resources of the territories gained by the Treaty of Brest-Litovsk along with the German soldiers on that front, Germany would have to choose one or the other.

I believe that if the Germans had taken Paris at any time after 1917, it would have stretched their troops to the breaking point and their tenuous hold on Paris and occupied France would have been easily shattered and they would have been soundly defeated by the Allies.



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Member of IAEA


Posted By: Temujin
Date Posted: 13-Aug-2004 at 15:34
I aree, by 1917 germany had no offensive capability int e west, the best Germany could hope for was a favourable peace or truce.

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Posted By: Jr_Capablanca
Date Posted: 15-Aug-2004 at 16:00

Hello!
I disagree. With "operation Michael" in 1918 germany was close to "flood" the french/british lines. Unfortunately (for them), they didn`t act quick enough, else they could have captured paris.

/Capa



Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 15-Aug-2004 at 16:50
Capa is right.  WWI was a clear [deadlock until mid-1918.  Up until then, it could have went either way.


Posted By: Genghis
Date Posted: 15-Aug-2004 at 19:50

Even if they did capture Paris, it would have stretched them extremely thin and exhausted their resources to such an extent that they would have been defeated.  If they did manage to hold on in the West, the British Navy was crippling their war industries, their other fronts were collapsing, and America was about to throw even more might against them.  After 1917, the Germans could at best hope for a diplomatic end to the war.



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Member of IAEA


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 15-Aug-2004 at 19:55
Originally posted by Genghis

Even if they did capture Paris, it would have stretched them extremely thin and exhausted their resources to such an extent that they would have been defeated.  If they did manage to hold on in the West, the British Navy was crippling their war industries, their other fronts were collapsing, and America was about to throw even more might against them.  After 1917, the Germans could at best hope for a diplomatic end to the war.

It wouldn't have mattered if they could hold Paris indefinately or not, because if that occurred than the war would have been won for Germany, naval defeat or no.  There's no way that a WWI D-Day could have happened had Germany overran France.



Posted By: Genghis
Date Posted: 15-Aug-2004 at 21:50
I think the French would have kept fighting and at least the British would have.  The capture of Paris would not have ended the war then and there.  The French and British would have recognized that despite a setback in Paris, the Germans were now in an even worse strategic position and they would have retaken Paris within 3 months by my estimate.

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Member of IAEA


Posted By: Tobodai
Date Posted: 15-Aug-2004 at 21:52
If there was a German salient extending all the way to Paris it would be attacked, likely cut off and would be an even larger defeat then what really happened in 1918.

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"the people are nothing but a great beast...
I have learned to hold popular opinion of no value."
-Alexander Hamilton


Posted By: Roughneck
Date Posted: 16-Aug-2004 at 19:40
Nah, I think that would have been it if Paris had fallen.  In those days the capital meant everything.

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Posted By: Temujin
Date Posted: 17-Aug-2004 at 21:22
well, I said Germany lacked the offensive capability, i didn't said it was collapsing the defense anytime soon, but war-weariness was very high in both Germany and France...basically it was Britain and America pushing the war further, especially since they were victorious on other fronts. and we should not bother about naval warfare too much, the navies were all in their habours, and the submarines were not yet efficient enough to do serious harm to merchant fleets.

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Posted By: Herodotus
Date Posted: 04-Sep-2004 at 21:53

During the French mutiny soldiers refused to go on partol or participate in offensives: no soldiers adandoned their trenches or refused to hold them. THe french were just disgusted with the disregard for the tens of thousands of lives wasted in offensives that went nowhere. 

So no, i dont think i great push by the german army would have been succesful if it coincided with the mutiny.

 



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"Dieu est un comédien jouant à une assistance trop effrayée de rire."
"God is a comedian playing to an audience too afraid to laugh."
-Francois Marie Arouet, Voltaire



Posted By: Evildoer
Date Posted: 13-Sep-2004 at 07:46

Even if the French line broke, there were British and a few American divisions to hold them back. Plus the Germans troops were extremely tired and demoralized too (htere had been few naval mutinies right before), so it isn't likely that they would been an effective assault force.

Plus there was the South-East Front where Frenco-Serb-Montenegro troops were defeating the Bulgarians who were allied to Germans.



Posted By: lars573
Date Posted: 15-Sep-2004 at 22:59

From what I've heard, which is very little. The french army mutiny was of french imperial troops. That is Arabs and black africans who rebelled against there officers and started to march south to try and find ships to take them across the mediterainian sea to africa.

 



Posted By: Quetzalcoatl
Date Posted: 16-Sep-2004 at 21:15

From what I've heard, which is very little. The french army mutiny was of french imperial troops. That is Arabs and black africans who rebelled against there officers and started to march south to try and find ships to take them across the mediterainian sea to africa.

 I don't think that might be true, because the Senegalese and Morrocans (among the arabs) were very good soldiers. Unfortunately due to racism of the time, many articles were written against them and most of them were fake. I've heard the germans were very scared of the senegalese. There was one case where some senegalese soldiers captured some germans, and immediately the Germans would run to hide behind the french officer accompanying the sengalese. This can also show they were actually fierce soldiers.  I think these people who died for France also deserved a lot of respect.

 The mutiny was rather justified, not to mention that the germans also mutinied and in there case their country was in chaos even before the allies would have invaded it.



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Posted By: Temujin
Date Posted: 17-Sep-2004 at 16:16
well, not mayn Germans back then had ever sawn a black person, so it's not unusual they were afraid of them...a report states that they were good scouts becasue they were black (and so less easy to spot at night) but a bit stupid (they lit cigarettes when on reconaissance)

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Posted By: Evildoer
Date Posted: 29-Sep-2004 at 17:11

But actually Blacks faced less discrimination in Europe than in America... This awareness was one of the factors that sparked the Civil Rights Movement.

I respect the Sengalese. But Moroccans soldiers are in general cruel and attrocious, according to what I have heard. They commited unspeakable attrocities against French invaders, and later on in Italy during WWII, they were abominated murderers and rapists.



Posted By: maersk
Date Posted: 01-Oct-2004 at 04:30
i think this site ought to hve an alternate history section. i LOVE creating alternate timelines more than anything 

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"behold, vajik, khan of the magyars, scourge of the pannonian plain!"


Posted By: dark_one
Date Posted: 07-Oct-2004 at 21:02
GErmany would have won only if a revolution in Britain would have disbanded the blockade and the Ottoman front collapsed. Ieven if they took Paris there would still be trenches a few miles behind Paris rather than ahead of it. Eventually USA would ahve pushed the Germans back. Im going to create and alternative history thread.



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