Pagan origins of Christmas
Printed From: History Community ~ All Empires
Category: Regional History or Period History
Forum Name: Ancient Mesopotamia, Near East and Greater Iran
Forum Discription: Babylon, Egypt, Persia and other civilizations of the Near East from ancient times to 600s AD
URL: http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=30760
Printed Date: 23-Apr-2024 at 22:21
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Topic: Pagan origins of Christmas
Posted By: Nick1986
Subject: Pagan origins of Christmas
Date Posted: 10-Dec-2011 at 19:12
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It may shock some of you to learn that Jesus may not have actually been born in December. December 25 was originally the birthday of Egyptian God Horus, a popular deity for Roman soldiers. On campaign the Romans introduced elements of this cult to Europe, combined with local Celtic rituals and imagery. The gift-giving and games came from the Roman feast of Saturnalia, and mistletoe was a sacred plant for the Druids. As for the fattened goose, this was originally a whole roast ox sacrificed at the new year to the pagan gods and eaten to bring good luck ------------- Me Grimlock not nice Dino! Me bash brains! |
Replies:
Posted By: Baal Melqart
Date Posted: 10-Dec-2011 at 20:45
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I knew about that, apparrently the church was fed up with people celebrating the pagan ritual so they made christmas to be celebrated on the same day. It seems they fought paganism through assimilation.
------------- Timidi mater non flet |
Posted By: Cyrus Shahmiri
Date Posted: 11-Dec-2011 at 05:53
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I really didn't know it, if archaeologists didn't find any Mithraeums all around the Roman empire, like the one in London, if we didn't know anything about ancient Romans beliefs, if ancient sources didn't mention that december 25 was originally the birthday of sun-god Mithras (the winter solstice, the longest night of the year), if we didn't know that Christmas was also called "Yule", ... but it could be possible to know Iranians still celebrate the birthday of Mithra which is called "Yuleda/Yalda" at the same time. ------------- 
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Posted By: Menumorut
Date Posted: 11-Dec-2011 at 06:03
That's correct. While the existence of Jesus can't be proved, the history of some of church's practices is better known. The date for celebration of Jesus's birth was intentionally established to coincide with the biggest pagan festivals. As for the resemblances with Mithras' cult, it must be said that the Persian Mithras was different than Roman Mithras. Roman Mithras was influenced by Christianity, not the other way around. -------------  |
Posted By: medenaywe
Date Posted: 11-Dec-2011 at 06:18
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Using this logic,Julius Augustus Caesar was ex. Mithra believer.Inside "slavic" countries all around the Balkans,we celebrate on 25 December KoLeDe....Somehow it's name says me,it was connected with Sun solstice circle!Sun's(Circle's) image praise/s(you,he/she/it). |
Posted By: Cyrus Shahmiri
Date Posted: 11-Dec-2011 at 07:14
It is not about Persian or Roman Mithras but about the longest night of the year and the rebirth of the sun, I believe it could be really a meaningless thing for both Romans and Persian and other people who lived in the Middle East or southern Europe, ancient Iranian sources talk about 18 hours of night and only 6 hours of daylight at this day, in this situation, you can imagine that the sun is reborn. -------------
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Posted By: medenaywe
Date Posted: 11-Dec-2011 at 07:31
| Also will fear Sun never comes again!Imagine it,Cyrus!YuLeDe=Fearsome Image praises! |
Posted By: Cyrus Shahmiri
Date Posted: 11-Dec-2011 at 07:54
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There can be certainly a common origin for Iranian Yuleda and Slavic Koleda, but there can be also an original Semitic origin, like the Hebrew/Arabic verb for "to be born". -------------
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Posted By: medenaywe
Date Posted: 11-Dec-2011 at 08:19
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Both words praise the day with shortest light period in the year:first one praises the Sun revival,other one reminds us about consequences with fear!People that "invented" Christianity had belonged on both groups Egyptian&Persian and screenplay dating had started earlier than Rome happened on Earth.I believed idea about this had been ignited with Alexander the Third.Among the rest nobody knew that he had started first official state combining of population:Egyptian&Persian.This one could have pronounced themselves Romans.In fact RoMe/RoMa had Egyptian roots.Name speaks:root's of mine.Both groups had practiced pagan religions. |
Posted By: Baal Melqart
Date Posted: 11-Dec-2011 at 09:30
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Bu what about the other pagan festivals. As I remember Mithraism wasn't the only religion common throughout the Roman Empire. There was the celtic Druid cult, Roman paganism..etc
------------- Timidi mater non flet |
Posted By: Cyrus Shahmiri
Date Posted: 11-Dec-2011 at 14:06
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Do you know what the Persian word for "Mithraeum" is? My another thread about Shahr (Old Persian Xshathra) and Sharab (Xshathrapa) can be a hint. -------------
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Posted By: medenaywe
Date Posted: 11-Dec-2011 at 14:09
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Here you have ancient Egyptian calendar: http://www.philae.nu/akhet/Calendar.html - http://www.philae.nu/akhet/Calendar.html also more about Horus:(who did copy Horus?) http://www.philvaz.com/apologetics/HORUS.htm - http://www.philvaz.com/apologetics/HORUS.htm |
Posted By: medenaywe
Date Posted: 11-Dec-2011 at 14:22
You have been asked by me cause of that.If we lived Ancient Persia times,you would have been Mithra's Throne!Am I right?  |
Posted By: Nick1986
Date Posted: 11-Dec-2011 at 19:03
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The Christmas Tree (and Yule Log) apparently originated from a Germanic practise where you would fell a whole tree and drag it inside to keep the fire burning for the whole winter
------------- Me Grimlock not nice Dino! Me bash brains! |
Posted By: Nick1986
Date Posted: 13-Dec-2011 at 19:09
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In Spain Nativity scenes often feature a representation of a peasant taking a crap to fertilise the earth. I'm not sure what this custom's origins are, but it doesn't sound very Christian
------------- Me Grimlock not nice Dino! Me bash brains! |
Posted By: unclefred
Date Posted: 13-Dec-2011 at 20:30
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Posted By: Baal Melqart
Date Posted: 13-Dec-2011 at 20:37
This is too good to be true!  ------------- Timidi mater non flet |
Posted By: Nick1986
Date Posted: 14-Dec-2011 at 19:22
Iron Age houses were quite big. The chief of the tribe usually lived in a big feasting hall to demonstrate his ability to provide food for his men. Smaller dwellings like the round-houses were quite tall, with more than enough room for a tree inside (and any livestock that hadn't yet been eaten) ------------- Me Grimlock not nice Dino! Me bash brains! |
Posted By: Baal Melqart
Date Posted: 14-Dec-2011 at 20:32
Interesting, so did they keep the livestock in separate rooms or just inside (I'm not even sure if they had rooms...)? ------------- Timidi mater non flet |
Posted By: Nick1986
Date Posted: 16-Dec-2011 at 19:12
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Iron Age houses had just one big room with a fire at the center. I think people shared this space with their animals. It must have stunk, but at least they kept warm
------------- Me Grimlock not nice Dino! Me bash brains! |
Posted By: Ollios
Date Posted: 16-Dec-2011 at 21:53
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Noel
bases on astromical reality as Nevruz. Days start to get longer and the
first rising point of the sun starts to change at the morning of 25th
December. The longest night is not just 21st December. It goes on till 23rd-24th December http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winter_solstice - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winter_solstice ------------- Ellerin Kabe'si var, Benim Kabem İnsandır |
Posted By: medenaywe
Date Posted: 17-Dec-2011 at 09:21
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from 17th to 23th December in Ancient Rome,had celebrated festival in honor of Saturn,Saturnalia: http://books.google.mk/books?id=zGY1Sqjwf8kC&pg=PA320&lpg=PA320&dq=25+december+ancient+cults&source=bl&ots=gpah7q8XOz&sig=PSTb1GN-njm6Ha6iikKQiGDprcY&hl=en&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=25%20december%20ancient%20cults&f=false - http://books.google.mk/books?id=zGY1Sqjwf8kC&pg=PA320&lpg=PA320&dq=25+december+ancient+cults&source=bl&ots=gpah7q8XOz&sig=PSTb1GN-njm6Ha6iikKQiGDprcY&hl=en&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=25%20december%20ancient%20cults&f=false |
Posted By: Cyrus Shahmiri
Date Posted: 17-Dec-2011 at 11:02
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There is a long text about the similarites between Christmas Tree and Yalda Tree in ChristmasIsALie website: http://www.christmasisalie.com/thetree.htm - http://www.christmasisalie.com/thetree.htm More info: http://persia.edublogs.org/files/2009/03/article-christmas-is-an-old-tradtion-from-persia-a.pdf - http://persia.edublogs.org/files/2009/03/article-christmas-is-an-old-tradtion-from-persia-a.pdf In one aspect Persians decorated the Yalda (Yule, Christmas) tree so that it represents our solar system. On the top of the tree was the Sun (i.e.the symbol of Mehr, Mithra) and under it, around the tree, there were other decorations presenting the planets and stars (as today may in some Christmas tree decorations be seen). Persians put also two silver/golden ribbons on the tree indicating the Milky Way i.e. a galactic dust (in Persian راه شیری, in Finnish Linnunrata) that we can also somehow see as decorations in today's Christmas trees. The younger girls had their wishes symbolically wrapped in colorful silk cloth and hung them on the tree with lots of presents for Mitra, to answer their prayers. -------------
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Posted By: Cyrus Shahmiri
Date Posted: 17-Dec-2011 at 11:12
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It is interesting to know that there is also an Islamic version of Yalda tree, some Shia muslims believe that Yalda was the orginial birthday of Imam Mahdi (the promised saviour) in the solar calendar, so they also decorate a tree at this night but on the top there is Allah (الله) word, instead of the symbol of Mithra.
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Posted By: medenaywe
Date Posted: 17-Dec-2011 at 11:29
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Was it always light on tree?Where did it come?Candles or ancient stone&pottery oil lamp?Cause YaLDa tree says it was light on tree! It gifts light to mortal one.Yes,it is obvious that light gift was most wanted:Do I live the next sunrise?Will Sun rise again? If this was right phonetic YaLDa=It,mortal spark(light),gifts!(again all translations are my own and not related with forum authorities).  P.S. We call this tree "Elka".In Serbo-Croatian is "JeLKa".Second one have preserved one of original forms.That means you can describe event with different words always of course!Now days words in "slavic" languages were once sentences.Real meaning you need to find combining last syllable inside.
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Posted By: Cyrus Shahmiri
Date Posted: 17-Dec-2011 at 15:51
There was no light without fire in the ancient time, so people couldn't illuminate the tree but they usually used fire altars alongside the evergreen trees, a bas-relief from the famous Mithraeum at Dura Europos (Syria-Iraq border), shows this thing:
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Posted By: medenaywe
Date Posted: 17-Dec-2011 at 16:02
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Who is man on horse that kills the snake?Mithra?Tell me about his supporters pictured on bas-relief. |
Posted By: Baal Melqart
Date Posted: 17-Dec-2011 at 17:19
It is Mithra, but he is not riding a horse but a bull. The Mithra that I know of, the one practised by Roman soldiers usually represents Mithra as slaying a bull.  ------------- Timidi mater non flet |
Posted By: Nick1986
Date Posted: 17-Dec-2011 at 19:31
 I've not had time to make a wreath this year. Who can tell me why holly and other evergreen plants like ivy and mistletoe were so important for pagan winter rituals? ------------- Me Grimlock not nice Dino! Me bash brains! |
Posted By: Baal Melqart
Date Posted: 17-Dec-2011 at 20:24
Wow, I watched the video embedded on the site and it presents christmas almost like devil worship! Please everyone watch it and tell me what you think. It's interesting the way a scary movie is, gives you the heeby jeebies but makes you want to watch more! ------------- Timidi mater non flet |
Posted By: Ollios
Date Posted: 18-Dec-2011 at 01:30
Christmas is one of the oldest and natural festival in world. Perspective which is in the video, is wrong. However it just said that it has pagan origin ------------- Ellerin Kabe'si var, Benim Kabem İnsandır |
Posted By: TheAlaniDragonRising
Date Posted: 18-Dec-2011 at 13:10
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I think I read somewhere that if nothing else, the birthday of Sol Invictus, on 25 December, is responsible for the date. Sol Invictus coming from the Romans. It would be great to find out if this is so, and the timeline as other traditions were added on. ------------- What a handsome figure of a dragon. No wonder I fall madly in love with the Alani Dragon now, the avatar, it's a gorgeous dragon picture. |
Posted By: Cyrus Shahmiri
Date Posted: 18-Dec-2011 at 16:34
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It is interesting to know about Yule Clog/Log.
As you read here: http://www.persia.org/Culture/nowruz.html - http://www.persia.org/Culture/nowruz.html Iranians believe that the first creation was the sky, a big chunk of stone high above.
It is believed that at the longest night of the year the sun-god Mithra was born out of this solid stone, the Persian word for Clog/Log is Kolokh (a big chunk of stone or wood), of course as it mentioned here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk%3ADanube - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk%3ADanube there can be a Celtic origin for this word, like Old Irish Cloch (stone/rock): http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/cloch - http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/cloch
Anyway Yule Clog or Yalda Kolokh could be a symbol of this thing. -------------
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Posted By: medenaywe
Date Posted: 18-Dec-2011 at 16:53
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"From foot answer" or "from footprint answer" is Sun here and his name was Dze!Very rare sound in Slavic language.Remains with this syllables are presented only in archaic words in F.Y.R.O.M.But if I put after -US will receive DzeUS=Zeus!Very nice forensic we have here.This i learn from words&language i am working within:Mother Earth is sleeping by night and we see her body(?) above or cattle(?) that carries her,A Moon. In the morning he starts walking with her stone foots on stone sky:She sparkles all around as biggest ever flint stone(Sun).Thats our Sun, it have been known as "Zeus" further in "history".It was "from foot answer"literary(foot's answer)!I forgot we are living on earth's head!(or plate!)(there are 3 types of genitive in this language,at least,therefore it is hard to convert them in English).3 genitives has Serbo-Croatian today to reminds us! |
Posted By: Nick1986
Date Posted: 18-Dec-2011 at 19:13
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From what i've read, the holly represents men and the ivy represents women. Evergreen plants were sacred because they represented new life during winter, a time of death ------------- Me Grimlock not nice Dino! Me bash brains! |
Posted By: Nick1986
Date Posted: 19-Dec-2011 at 19:11
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Mistletoe and wine both had prominent roles during the pagan Solstice. Wine was part of the midwinter feast while potions containing mistletoe were used to incapacitate sacrificial victims so the druid could slit their throats ------------- Me Grimlock not nice Dino! Me bash brains! |
Posted By: medenaywe
Date Posted: 22-Dec-2011 at 05:22
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Has been YaLDa tree of eternal light&Fire?Wood from trees have always been basic source of fire.We still use prehistoric representation about it,I believe.First sentences that have described them we use today as words for object&event it represented once. |
Posted By: medenaywe
Date Posted: 02-Jan-2012 at 03:07
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Had been used by Mithra,spear&arrow in descriptions? |
Posted By: medenaywe
Date Posted: 03-Jan-2012 at 08:27
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It looks as head of spear&knife on pictures here:(he targets anyway is inside his name!) http://www.crystalinks.com/mithraism.html - http://www.crystalinks.com/mithraism.html My early died grandpa i have never seen was "DyMithra"=admire's Mithra.In "slavic" it sounds as Dimitar: http://www.forvo.com/word/dimitar/ - http://www.forvo.com/word/dimitar/ |
Posted By: Vladd
Date Posted: 03-Jan-2012 at 08:49
| I remember reading somewhere that decorating trees dates back to when Germanic barbarians draped the entrails etc of their defeated enemies over trees as an offering to their gods. However I have never been able to find another reference to this so either I am confusing sources or I read a mistaken piece of text. |
Posted By: medenaywe
Date Posted: 03-Jan-2012 at 09:03
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Barbarians=animals in history.Vladd,only barbarians are those that promote their only right to be barbarians destroying other's history and culture.All the rests were believers in different cults&religions."We trust in God" rules the world economy today!They also trust in Gods&Goddesses,they were not animals,but humans. Religions that had came after made their "competition&rivals" pagans!By the way all the rest was copy&paste ritual. |
Posted By: Baal Melqart
Date Posted: 03-Jan-2012 at 09:49
I agree with you on this statement. Often Romans and Greeks referred to them as Barbarians but then that is a very biased and narrow-minded ancient description. Some tribes were actually quite 'civilised' such as the Franks wh had a rich culture and as I remember, they were also very clean (not sure of this). But then again we also hear of some horrifying things that these 'Barbarians' did. Some like the Scythians would reportedly skin their enemies' scalps and make them into gowns or trophies. Idk if this account is true or mere exaggeration though. ------------- Timidi mater non flet |
Posted By: medenaywe
Date Posted: 03-Jan-2012 at 10:03
Yes,Baal we mistook there.We had bred mastiffs for our own protection but we forgot this was animal way of reproduction.Now we have:vampires(known also as X-men in public),werewolves(vampire's seeds, offspring in human's nests) and humans!Minorities are endemic forms of life:humans. |