Mons Graupius
Printed From: History Community ~ All Empires
Category: General History
Forum Name: Military History
Forum Discription: Discussions related to military history: generals, battles, campaigns, etc.
URL: http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=30150
Printed Date: 28-Apr-2024 at 10:18
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 9.56a - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: Mons Graupius
Posted By: Centrix Vigilis
Subject: Mons Graupius
Date Posted: 30-Aug-2011 at 17:03
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Poor old battlefield..they still don't know where.
Mystery over Roman battle may rule it out from list
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-highlands-islands-14668152 - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-highlands-islands-14668152
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"Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence"
S. T. Friedman
Pilger's law: 'If it's been officially denied, then it's probably true'
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Replies:
Posted By: Toltec
Date Posted: 30-Aug-2011 at 22:33
Well they've totally failed to find every other Roman battlefield in the UK.
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Stupidity got us into this mess, why can't it get us out?
http://historyplanet.wordpress.com - History Planet Website
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Posted By: Centrix Vigilis
Date Posted: 30-Aug-2011 at 22:36
yup sad ntl tis true.
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"Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence"
S. T. Friedman
Pilger's law: 'If it's been officially denied, then it's probably true'
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Posted By: Chookie
Date Posted: 31-Aug-2011 at 17:07
I doubt they'll ever find it -I think Tacitus was bigging-up his father-in-law and exaggerated a skirmish into a major engagement.
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For money you did what guns could not do.........
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Posted By: Nick1986
Date Posted: 31-Aug-2011 at 19:29
According to Tacitus only the auxiliary cavalry were involved in the battle. Perhaps this was a small-scale skirmish, explaining why the professional legionaries were kept in reserve
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Me Grimlock not nice Dino! Me bash brains!
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Posted By: Centrix Vigilis
Date Posted: 31-Aug-2011 at 22:01
That and the fact that the road apples left behind, by the horses, have long gone.
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"Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence"
S. T. Friedman
Pilger's law: 'If it's been officially denied, then it's probably true'
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Posted By: Nick1986
Date Posted: 01-Sep-2011 at 19:07
Could the battle have occurred in the Grampians? As Chookie will tell you, the Highlands have been used as a hiding place by rebels and outlaws from the time of William Wallace well into the 18th century
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Me Grimlock not nice Dino! Me bash brains!
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Posted By: Centrix Vigilis
Date Posted: 01-Sep-2011 at 23:11
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I'll bite...but where is the evidence....what we have is damn near non-exsistence.
Do we go with other besides Tacitus? then who. Old scholars such as Bede et.al? Don't recall them commenting. What's his name who wrote about Arthur as a Roman Duke etc....sketchy.
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"Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence"
S. T. Friedman
Pilger's law: 'If it's been officially denied, then it's probably true'
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Posted By: Toltec
Date Posted: 02-Sep-2011 at 05:58
Originally posted by Chookie
I doubt they'll ever find it -I think Tacitus was bigging-up his father-in-law and exaggerated a skirmish into a major engagement.
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The Caledonians beat Severus without giving him a battle. So perhaps you're right.
http://historyplanet.wordpress.com/2011/05/25/598/ - http://historyplanet.wordpress.com/2011/05/25/598/
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Stupidity got us into this mess, why can't it get us out?
http://historyplanet.wordpress.com - History Planet Website
<br /
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Posted By: claymore
Date Posted: 16-Oct-2011 at 11:27
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we still dont know were it took place because we dont know for sure, how far the romans really got in scotland i live in the far north of scotland, and we have found roman coins for years, according to history books romans never got anywhere near my town
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Posted By: Centrix Vigilis
Date Posted: 16-Oct-2011 at 11:53
At's a fair point but objects can be carried. A long ways obviously. So what was below the wall carried and left on the Hebrides or Orkney for example is not necessarily proof of identification of means or motive as to how it got there.
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"Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence"
S. T. Friedman
Pilger's law: 'If it's been officially denied, then it's probably true'
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Posted By: claymore
Date Posted: 16-Oct-2011 at 12:37
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thats true, but as far as the Hebrides and Orkney ceaser himself said some of his soldiers sailed round the island the debate seems to be how far inland they got ie scottish highlands we might never know
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Posted By: Centrix Vigilis
Date Posted: 16-Oct-2011 at 12:43
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Agreed but the most obvious answer was they were carried inland...or left by those who carried them. Ancient identification and comparison and contrast of modern terrain also remains a connecting problem.
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"Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence"
S. T. Friedman
Pilger's law: 'If it's been officially denied, then it's probably true'
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Posted By: Nick1986
Date Posted: 16-Oct-2011 at 19:41
It might also depend on the number of coins found. If it's just a few, chances are they were scavenged or traded by individuals. If it's a large hoard, the coins are more likely to be war booty, especially if there's little native currency buried with them
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Me Grimlock not nice Dino! Me bash brains!
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Posted By: claymore
Date Posted: 17-Oct-2011 at 12:16
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many coins have been found over the years the big problem its a graveyard .grave diggers keep finding them local historians think it used to be a market place its high on a hill
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Posted By: Chookie
Date Posted: 17-Oct-2011 at 16:40
Originally posted by claymore
thats true, but as far as the Hebrides and Orkneyceaser himself said some of his soldiers sailed round the island |
No he didn't. That claim was made by Tacitus in his "Agricola". Caesar had been dead for over a hundred years at the time......
The Roman hoards found in Orkney are probably bribes / tributes paid to local kings during that voyage.
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For money you did what guns could not do.........
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Posted By: Nick1986
Date Posted: 17-Oct-2011 at 19:10
Didn't Caesar become a title as well as a surname? I thought Roman emperors were referred to as Caesar long after Nero's death. There are also modern rulers named after Caesar: the German Kaiser and Russian Tsar
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Me Grimlock not nice Dino! Me bash brains!
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Posted By: Chookie
Date Posted: 18-Oct-2011 at 15:14
Yes it was, but I was specifically referring to Julius Caesar. As far as I've seen Vespasian, who was Emperor at the time didn't use the word at all....
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For money you did what guns could not do.........
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Posted By: claymore
Date Posted: 18-Oct-2011 at 16:32
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chookie are you sure Caesers men didnt sail round nothern parts of scotland. im not saying they landed anywhere, but would have sense for a future invasion
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Posted By: Nick1986
Date Posted: 18-Oct-2011 at 20:19
A very good point. The Romans could well have sailed around the coast, though their fear of the sea and preference for land-routes makes this unlikely
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Me Grimlock not nice Dino! Me bash brains!
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Posted By: okamido
Date Posted: 28-Oct-2011 at 15:15
Originally posted by claymore
chookie
are you sure Caesers men didnt sail round nothern parts of scotland.
im not saying they landed anywhere, but would have sense for a future invasion |
This is an extremely unlikely scenario. For the Romans, setting foot in the British Isles was akin to landing on the moon, and with GJC's penchant for self-aggrandization, I find it hard to believe that he would not have extensively accounted for any expedition that attempted to circumnavigate the main Isle. Besides, he barely had the logistics to support the main expedition, anything further would have posed untold problems.
As to the coins found, which part of Scotland do you hail from? With Roman camps as far north as Cawdor, as well as the proliferation of trade, it shouldn't be suprising to find coins in the Highlands. If they could find some amphorae, weapons, or Legionary kits, it would be far more of a find.
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Posted By: Chookie
Date Posted: 28-Oct-2011 at 16:39
No, Caesar's men didn't "sail round northern parts of Scotland". Caesar's men were caught up in an (two really) unsuccessful attempt at invasion of southern Britannia.
A hundred and a bit years later, long after the successful Claudian invasion, during the Agricolan invasion, of what is now Scotland, the Classis Britannica (British fleet) was directed to sail around the island (this occasioned the Usipi mutiny).
oka, there have been amphorae found in the Orkneys, and at other sites the Romans never managed to reach on foot. But I don't see that as problem - if you want bribe a local warlord, bullion works, but so does a novel form of alcohol...........
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For money you did what guns could not do.........
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Posted By: claymore
Date Posted: 30-Oct-2011 at 11:35
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OK CHOOKIE the history books seem to favour you to you okamido i live in an area called lochaber north west scotland no weapons found just coins so far but rather a lot over the years
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Posted By: okamido
Date Posted: 30-Oct-2011 at 13:00
Originally posted by Chookie
oka, there have been amphorae found in the Orkneys, and at other sites the Romans never managed to reach on foot. But I don't see that as problem - if you want bribe a local warlord, bullion works, but so does a novel form of alcohol...........
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You are correct. I had to go back to Orkneyjar to look at this, then kick myself for either having read it in the past and forgotten it, or just plain missing it in the first place. It was also interesting to read that emmisaries from the Isles had made a formal submission to Rome. I will definately need to follow up on that.
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Posted By: Nick1986
Date Posted: 30-Oct-2011 at 20:49
Chookie's theory makes sense too. The Romans gave wine as part of the bribe for Caratacus' allies. Shortly afterwards they handed him over in chains
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Me Grimlock not nice Dino! Me bash brains!
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