Can't find medieval depictions of the Colosseum
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Category: General History
Forum Name: Historical Pictures Gallery
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URL: http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=29996
Printed Date: 19-Apr-2024 at 23:31
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Topic: Can't find medieval depictions of the Colosseum
Posted By: shokdee
Subject: Can't find medieval depictions of the Colosseum
Date Posted: 08-Aug-2011 at 02:39
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I've been looking at depictions of the tower of Babel. http://babelstone.blogspot.com/2007/01/72-views-of-tower-of-babel.html - http://babelstone.blogspot.com/2007/01/72-views-of-tower-of-babel.html http://babelstone.blogspot.com/2008/12/72-more-views-of-tower-of-babel.html - http://babelstone.blogspot.com/2008/12/72-more-views-of-tower-of-babel.html http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Tower_of_Babel - http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Tower_of_Babel As you can see there are many detailed pictures of this Biblical event (and many interesting discussion points). Some depictions reminded me of the famous Colosseum, so I wanted to look at similar depictions of this large building. Since this structure had already been existing for hundreds of years by the time the depictions above were made, there should be plenty of material. What a surprise! I can't find anything! http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Colosseum - http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Colosseum Bernardo Bellotto (1721–1780) !! Thomas Cole (1801–1848) !! Why didn't the Renaissance painters bother to make even a single depiction of this magnificent structure right on their doorstep? Any ideas? ------------- Monkey see monkey do be doobie do |
Replies:
Posted By: shokdee
Date Posted: 08-Aug-2011 at 06:13
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Andre Parrot, in The Tower of Babel in Art (The Tower of
Babel. Studies in Biblical Archaeology no. 2 ), notes the age of the oldest
representation and comments;
This long delay before the theme made its appearance is
surprising.
He continues that the topic had been a great source of
inspiration for artists;
It is all the more astonishing, therefore, as Francois Fosca
has pointed out, that we find no reference to it in the work of the 'four
greatest 'innovators' of painting: Albrecht Durer, Raphael in the Stanze of the
Vatican, Tintoretto and Rembrandt'. We
might add Michelangelo, who could have followed up his Deluge and his Drunkenness
of Noah in the Sistine Chapel with a brilliant panel devoted to the tower in
the plain of Shinar.
So we have 2 puzzles already:
Why the "surprising" lack of earlier depictions?
Why the "astonishing" lack of depictions by some of
the great painters?
But there are even more puzzles. Let me remind that:
- Mass
production of Bibles did not occur until long after 1450
- The
Bible account in Genesis 11:1-9 is short on details, but one thing is clear,
the tower was built from clay fired bricks. Verse 3 states; And they said to
one another: 'Come now, let us make bricks, and fire them thoroughly'. And so
they had bricks with which to build, and used bitumen for cement.
What immediately jumps out at me whilst looking at all the depictions (across time and space) is that they share a common structure! To a lesser or greater degree they all contain the same
components:
1- a low (2-3 story) structure.
2- some builders at the top, working on the structure
3- to the side a foreman
4- in the foreground, stone masons cutting stone
5- in the foreground, someone mixing cement
6- a way to get material to the top, often a step ladder
In fact you can trace the history of medieval technology in the depictions, from ladders to treadmill cranes, from shoulder-troughs to wheelbarrows. But why do they all depict STONE MASONS, when the Bible clearly states they used clay - fired bricks? Even more puzzling, how could artists at the same time, but
in very different locations, all depict the same components, including the
misplaced stone masons, BEFORE the Bible has been widely distributed?
Any ideas?
------------- Monkey see monkey do be doobie do |
Posted By: opuslola
Date Posted: 01-Jan-2014 at 12:18
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This an interesting question and there appears that there exists no modern explanation for the lack of representations. The only explanation is not to be expected by any person who believes in the current chronology. That answer is that the Coliseum did not exist in the Middle Ages. Anybody got a better idea? Ron ------------- http://www.quotationspage.com/subjects/history/ |
Posted By: Sidney
Date Posted: 02-Jan-2014 at 18:14
A simple answer could be that the OP didn't look hard enough. Caspar Van Wittel (1653-1736), Jan Asselijn (1610-1652) and Jean Lemaire (1598-1659) produced images of the Colosseum. Renaissance artists Giovanni Battista Naldini (1537-1591), Antonio Lafreri (1512-1577). Maerten van Heemskerck (1498-1574) and Jan Mabuse (1478-1532) also depicted the Colosseum. Also look at the images/maps in this thread; http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=34162&PN=1 - http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=34162&PN=1 - to see the Colosseum shown in the early 14th to late 15th Centuries. |
Posted By: opuslola
Date Posted: 02-Jan-2014 at 21:25
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Why yes my dear Sidney, you are correct! But even with my 1457 CE identification we are really speaking of the "Late Middle Ages" and the Renaissance! I am sure that Shokdee intended to speak of the times preceding the Late Middle Ages! You do realize that some historians consider the entirety of these so called "Middle Ages" is about 1,000 years! So give him a break, and find a representation from before 1,000 CE?, or even 1,300 CE? Smile! This might well be a tough assignment, it is much like finding a description of one of the Great Pyramids in the same period! You have seen my interactive world map, have you not? Regards, Ron ------------- http://www.quotationspage.com/subjects/history/ |
Posted By: TheAlaniDragonRising
Date Posted: 02-Jan-2014 at 22:33
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This might be one of the earliest depiction.
http://s1235.photobucket.com/user/The_Alani_Dragon_Rising/media/ncaq_zps949c26a9.jpg.html">  This type of coin was minted to commemorate the first games at the Colosseum, and handed out by the Roman Emperor Titus to the first spectators. ------------- What a handsome figure of a dragon. No wonder I fall madly in love with the Alani Dragon now, the avatar, it's a gorgeous dragon picture. |
Posted By: Sidney
Date Posted: 02-Jan-2014 at 23:02
The OP actually only specifies the Renaissance. I've pointed out that there are Renaissance depictions of the Colosseum. You are the one who has mentioned the Middle Ages, not the OP. Maps in the referenced thread date from the 1300s and the early 1400s, long before your 1457 identification. Here is the map of Rome from 1334, which shows the Colosseum; 
Here is a depiction of St.Ignatius being killed by lions in the Colosseum, from the Menologion of Basil II c.1000 AD. 
Roman coin of Gordian III and earlier Emperors show images of the Colosseum too; Gordian III c.240 AD 
Severus Alexander 223 AD 
Titus 80 AD 
|
Posted By: opuslola
Date Posted: 03-Jan-2014 at 20:29
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My response to both of is this;
By just what known fact was each of the representations shown above derived from? That is, just what is the prime detail that indicates the age of these representations? In other words, the coins and depictions shown above are based upon the certain reliance upon our consensually agreed upon chronology, which is certainly not agreed upon by either my self or the Fomenko Group. Your answers are only based upon the chronology of Scaliger and Petavius, with small later revisions. If indeed you can find any fixed dates that are verifiable by modern means, that they used to build this great chronology, then please present it! Basically I feel it is mostly BS! And done to promote Christianity and the Church, since both of these persons were under the control of Rome. And, it seems to me, that the dating of Easter is the most important date that was discerned by these men and others of the past. Therefor, all dates are related to the Christ!, and nothing more. Regards, Ron ------------- http://www.quotationspage.com/subjects/history/ |
Posted By: opuslola
Date Posted: 03-Jan-2014 at 20:37
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Sidney, you wrote above;
"Maps in the referenced thread date from the 1300s and the early 1400s, long before your 1457 identification. Here is the map of Rome from 1334, which shows the Colosseum; " Can any other landmarks be identified on this image of Rome, like the Rotunda, it is too small for me. And just what does a blow up of St. Peter's show? It is too small for me to make out. But, it seems similar to my 1457 site! Could you give us a site or an enlarged image of the above? Regards, Ron ------------- http://www.quotationspage.com/subjects/history/ |
Posted By: Sidney
Date Posted: 03-Jan-2014 at 22:02
How does the dating of Roman coins help promote Christianity? How does dating Easter require a revision of history? What do you mean by a 'fixed date'? Dates are arbitrary numbers used to label a sequence of events. Different cultures have different ways of expressing those labels. As such, a 'fixed date' in one culture/era might not be viewed as 'fixed' by another, or might be 'fixed' within a different context. |
Posted By: Sidney
Date Posted: 03-Jan-2014 at 22:10
The image, although in black and white, is on the other thread at a slightly larger size. The Colosseum is visible and the Rotunda. To see it larger I'd have to purchase the book it appears in - something I'm not inclined to do. Sorry I can't help further. |
Posted By: opuslola
Date Posted: 03-Jan-2014 at 22:16
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My Dear Sidney!
You ask such good questions and I thank you for them. Firstly making one's religion very old does by itself promote it! By my estimation, almost all dates are connected to the established date of Easter and no other. That includes ancient Egypt, Rome and the Near and Far East! Easter is the only "fixed date" of the past! If you don't figure this out then you are mostly out! smile "Fixed" really means that the dates you use today for events before the advent and wide usage of the Printing Press came into common usage, and most information after this was common has become "Fixed!" OH! Sidney can you get a close-up look at St. Peter's? Just what does it resemble? Regards, Ron ------------- http://www.quotationspage.com/subjects/history/ |
Posted By: opuslola
Date Posted: 03-Jan-2014 at 22:28
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Maps in the referenced thread date from the 1300s and the early 1400s, long before your 1457 identification. Here is the map of Rome from 1334, which shows the Colosseum;
In my close up examination of the image you presented to us, it seems that St. Peter's Basilica looks a lot like my 1457 representation! Do you concur? You do know my friend, that you do not have to purchase the book! Most books can be examined by inter-library loan, etc., besides I have access to a lot of stuff others cannot get. So, my young friend, just what is the source of this great presentation of Roma? Regards, Ron ------------- http://www.quotationspage.com/subjects/history/ |
Posted By: Sidney
Date Posted: 03-Jan-2014 at 22:38
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By 'Easter' do you mean the date of the movable Easter Festival each year, or do you mean the date of Christ's crucifixion and resurrection? I might be misunderstanding your use of the word.
The Roman coins are not Christian, therefore do not make 'ones religion' very old. The Colosseum was an achievement of pre-Christian Rome, to the glory of what are now called pagans. I'm not understanding your reference to the printing press. Do you mean that a printed date is indisputable (ie the date of publication that appears printed on the paper)? What about hand written documents that are dated and sealed and predate the printing press? |
Posted By: opuslola
Date Posted: 03-Jan-2014 at 23:25
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You wrote; "I'm not understanding your reference to the printing press. Do you mean that a printed date is indisputable (ie the date of publication that appears printed on the paper)? What about hand written documents that are dated and sealed and predate the printing press?"
Actually hand written documents were especially desired by rich patrons in the 16th century! But, I am afraid that I believe most of them were fake! Sorry that is my true belief! And yes the Paschal date is most important! Coins can be easily counterfeited and many have be found to be so. I do not trust the chronology seemingly confirmed by them since the dates of the rulers whose faces efface them was already determined based upon fictional material, lacking in facts! So where is that good view of Rome? Regards, Ron ------------- http://www.quotationspage.com/subjects/history/ |
Posted By: medenaywe
Date Posted: 04-Jan-2014 at 01:31
| It was garbage disposal place. |
Posted By: Sidney
Date Posted: 04-Jan-2014 at 11:48
Every work of print has to be based on a written version at some point, even if it is just the original manuscript that the author sends to the publisher, who then sends it to the proof reader, editor and type setters. Every source has its limitations. Paschal date? Again - is this the feast date or the death of Jesus you are referring to? Replacing the word Easter with the word Paschal has not made this any clearer. The Christian feasts of Paschal and Easter are based on a lunar calendar, which means that the dates for each year varies every year. Establishing the correct day on which the Paschal full moon and the following Easter Sunday were celebrated was an important topic of debate for Christians for centuries, dividing the Syrian and Alexandrian Churches, and causing the suppression of the Celtic Church. Even today the Eastern Orthodox, the Western Catholics and the different Protestant religions can all celebrate Paschal and Easter on different dates in the same year. So I'm not sure whether your questioning of chronology relies on what day the festival is held, or whether you are referring to the year of Jesus' death. The context might suggest the latter, but knowing what a hot topic the Easter controversy has been over the centuries, I would like to clarify this. Re. the view of Rome: - I have already told you that you have exhausted my resources (presented images, plus a web-link). I will happily post anything new that I find, but repeating the demand does not make it any easier to fulfill!! |
Posted By: opuslola
Date Posted: 04-Jan-2014 at 21:56
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Dear Sidney, you have responded so well to many of my questions that I wonder why you suddenly have problems?
Earlier you posted this; "Maps in the referenced thread date from the 1300s and the early 1400s, long before your 1457 identification. Here is the map of Rome from 1334, which shows the Colosseum; " And after I asked for some connection to it, you responded that you had already given me the needed information. But, for some reason or another I seem to have missed the necessary connections to the book that you could not deem relative to this discussion to purchase. Thus, I proposed that I might well purchase said book, and again asked for the source, and again I have yet to see the provenance of the over view of Rome that you above presented. Regards, Ron ------------- http://www.quotationspage.com/subjects/history/ |
Posted By: opuslola
Date Posted: 04-Jan-2014 at 22:03
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Again, I am not computer literate enough to do a lot of things, but I do believe someone of you would be able to capture the image presented to us by Sidney and expand it for at least my use?
I would certainly appreciate it!! Regards, Ron ------------- http://www.quotationspage.com/subjects/history/ |
Posted By: opuslola
Date Posted: 04-Jan-2014 at 22:07
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And, Sidney you again refer to the Pashal dates and the Easter Dates! I see almost no difference! This date, or these datings, are at the cornerstone of our modern dating of past events! That is my opinion and that of the Fomenko Group, for sure.
So, why do you continue to argue about one or the other? Either way, they are the dates that connect most everything from the ancient past to the modern times! That is my most humble opinion. Regards, Ron ------------- http://www.quotationspage.com/subjects/history/ |
Posted By: opuslola
Date Posted: 04-Jan-2014 at 22:47
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Maps in the referenced thread date from the 1300s and the early 1400s, long before your 1457 identification. Here is the map of Rome from 1334, which shows the Colosseum;
Damn, I just do not know how to transfer things! Please help me? Ron ------------- http://www.quotationspage.com/subjects/history/ |
Posted By: Sidney
Date Posted: 05-Jan-2014 at 05:12
Sorry, opuslola. I entirely missed the post where you asked for the book. There is no problem. I have already done what you asked, but you failed to notice!! If you follow the link that I provided on the other thread, guess what you will find? Answer - An online version of the very book you are claiming I'm failing to provide you with. If you have not followed the link, here it is again - http://publishing.cdlib.org/ucpressebooks/view?docId=ft4f59n96q;chunk.id=0;doc.view=print - http://publishing.cdlib.org/ucpressebooks/view?docId=ft4f59n96q;chunk.id=0;doc.view=print . Look down the page and you'll find illustrations, including the map I posted. Just to clarify for you, the book is "Rome before Avignon" by Robert Brentano. |
Posted By: Sidney
Date Posted: 05-Jan-2014 at 05:30
I think we are at cross purposes over what I am asking you to clarify. I will try to reword it. When you talk about the date of Easter/Paschal, are you referring to the calendar date (the day of the year that it falls on), or are you referring to the chronological date (the year in history)? Both have been controversial issues. Which one is pivotal to your theory that history is wrong? Easter Sunday falls on April 20th this year. |
Posted By: opuslola
Date Posted: 05-Jan-2014 at 15:45
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Sorry I have not responded earlier, I have been very busy.
The date is question is the day, month and year of the death and resurrection Of Jesus the Christ. I seem to have read that various brains of the past worked very hard on this issue since there seem to have been certain astronomical events that can be computed using astronomy and the necessary mathematical computations. And it was this computation that the first unified chronology of the European past was written. This first real unified chronology was composed by Joseph Iustus Scaliger and refined by Petavius. See; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Justus_Scaliger And; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Petavius With a number of small tweaks it remains mostly the view of the past that we read about today. And thanks for the hyper-link! But I only got it in the PDF format, which means it was in Black and White and not colour. And,as well, it remains much to small to make out much detail. Perhaps I can actually get the original book via Intra Library loan/ Thanks again for being so gracious and doing so much. Ron http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Justus_Scaliger - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Justus_Scaliger ------------- http://www.quotationspage.com/subjects/history/ |
Posted By: Sidney
Date Posted: 07-Jan-2014 at 15:27
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Cheers for the explanation.
I am under the impression that unified chronologies were nothing original. Rashid-al Din, St.Jerome and Herodotus spring to mind. |
Posted By: opuslola
Date Posted: 07-Jan-2014 at 15:44
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Herodotus? From wikipedia; "Just as Homer drew extensively on a tradition of oral poetry, sung by wandering minstrels, so Herodotus appears to have drawn on an Ionian tradition of story-telling, collecting and interpreting the oral histories he chanced upon in his travels. These oral histories often contained folk-tale motifs and demonstrated a moral, yet they also contained substantial facts relating to geography, anthropology and history, all compiled by Herodotus in an entertaining style and format.[17]"
There only exists suspected fragments of his works, and the rest is merely supposition! ------------- http://www.quotationspage.com/subjects/history/ |
Posted By: opuslola
Date Posted: 07-Jan-2014 at 15:48
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Rashid-al Din! From wikipedia; Calligraphy Workshop: Rab' i-Rashidi[edit]
The work was executed at the elaborate scriptorium Rab'-e Rashidi at Qazvin, where a large team of calligraphers and illustrators were employed to produce lavishly illustrated books. These books could also be copied, while preserving accuracy, using a printing process imported from China. Hulagu with his Christian queen Dokuz Khatun. Hulagu conquered Muslim Syria, in collaboration with Christian forces from Cilician Armenia, Georgia, and Antioch. From Rashid al-Din's work. The work was at the time of completion, c. 1307, of monumental size. Several sections have not survived or been discovered. Portions of the Jami al-Tawarikh survive in lavishly illustrated manuscripts, believed to have been produced during his lifetime and perhaps under his direct supervision at the Rab'-e Rashidi workshop.[citation needed] Historiographical significance[edit] Volumes II and III of the Jami al-Tawarikh have survived and are of great importance for the study of the Il-Khanate. Volume II is an account of the successors of Genghis Khan while volume III describes the Ilkhanid Dynasty. In his narration down to the reign of Möngke (1251–1259), Juvayni was Rashid al-Din's main source; however, he also utilized numerous now-lost Far Eastern and other sources. The Jami' al-Tawarikh is perhaps the single most comprehensive Persian source on the Mongol period. For the period of Genghis Khan, his sources included the now lost Altan Debter (Golden Book), and historians find by comparison with material that survives in Chinese sources that he made good use of the source.[citation needed] His treatment of the Ilkhanid period seems to be biased, as he himself was a high official, yet it is still seen as the most valuable written source for the dynasty." Again very little information concerning this Jewish historian remain, most of the rest is conjectural at best. ------------- http://www.quotationspage.com/subjects/history/ |
Posted By: opuslola
Date Posted: 07-Jan-2014 at 16:00
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And, I would suggest St. Jerome can be accurately portrayed in this representation; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Workshop_of_Pieter_Coecke_van_Aelst,_the_elder_-_Saint_Jerome_in_His_Study_-_Walters_37256.jpg
Which is probably the time that he lived. You see my dear Sidney, that whenever very ancient personages have such long pedigrees or confirmed times, as opposed to those who reportedly lived a thousand years closer to our times, who have meager histories, and pedigrees, then something is wrong!! Perhaps Plato, Plethon, Plotinus is a good example? Please read this series of postings? http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=28856 Regards, Ron ------------- http://www.quotationspage.com/subjects/history/ |
Posted By: Sidney
Date Posted: 07-Jan-2014 at 18:48
I'll read the postings later, but I'm firstly surprised that you think that the painting below (the one you reference) accurately portrays St.Jerome as he lived in the mid 16th Century; 
Depictions of St.Jerome in his study have a long history. |
Posted By: Sidney
Date Posted: 07-Jan-2014 at 19:27
I won't post a long list of image showing how frequently the subject is portrayed, but here is one from c.1500; 
And another one, by Antonio de Fabriano. Notice the painting is dated 1451? 
Here is one by Cecco de Pietro, from c.1390; 
And here is Jerome in his study by Giotto di Bondone, 1290-95; 
There are others, but do you see my disbelief? And these are just images of Jerome in his study. |
Posted By: Sidney
Date Posted: 07-Jan-2014 at 19:42
And there is also Steinwick's painting from 1630:
Judging by the setting, Jerome clearly lived in the 17th Century!? Artists often represent people in a context that their contemporary viewer would understand; containing symbolism and meaning shared at the time of painting between painter and audience. Placing historical people in anachronistic settings and clothing was not unusual. These images are not photos of an event or attempts at accurate historical reconstructions, but are portrayals of an idea that is communicated through stock mediums understood within the culture they were generated for. |
Posted By: opuslola
Date Posted: 07-Jan-2014 at 20:32
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Just look at the book! It is most modern it is, is it not?
Ron ------------- http://www.quotationspage.com/subjects/history/ |
Posted By: opuslola
Date Posted: 07-Jan-2014 at 20:41
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Sidney, what wonderful representations, but I am afraid I give no plus points for timeliness!
Thus your words: "Artists often represent people in a context that their contemporary viewer would understand; containing symbolism and meaning shared at the time of painting between painter and audience. Placing historical people in anachronistic settings and clothing was not unusual. These images are not photos of an event or attempts at accurate historical reconstructions, but are portrayals of an idea that is communicated through stock mediums understood within the culture they were generated for." I will give the above paragraph a 2 out of ten! That is, there is a 20% chance that you shall be proven correct! The words written above were done so to correct scenes that could not be correctly or in my opinion incorrectly placed in the distant past. Ron ------------- http://www.quotationspage.com/subjects/history/ |
Posted By: opuslola
Date Posted: 07-Jan-2014 at 20:49
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But, boy o" You present some great goods!
Could you provide a presentation like those above that presents Caesar wearing the armour of the Fleur di Lys? Look hard and long for this one? Regards, Ron ------------- http://www.quotationspage.com/subjects/history/ |
Posted By: Sidney
Date Posted: 08-Jan-2014 at 16:00
Which book? |
Posted By: Sidney
Date Posted: 08-Jan-2014 at 16:07
So how come my images show Jerome in settings dateable from the 14th to the 17th Centuries? You are dismissing the concept of artistic history and symbolism. |
Posted By: Sidney
Date Posted: 08-Jan-2014 at 16:11
Could you give me an example to set the ball rolling? |
Posted By: Sidney
Date Posted: 08-Jan-2014 at 16:15
As the quote above says, Herodotus' work "contained substantial facts relating to geography, anthropology and history". I'm glad we agree. |
Posted By: Sidney
Date Posted: 08-Jan-2014 at 17:02
Wikipedia's lack of an adequately detailed entry on Rashid-al Din does not mean that little information is known about this person. This book contains a potted, but much better, history of Rashid-al Din's political career; http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=N7_4Gr9Q438C&pg=PA145&lpg=PA145&dq=Rashid-al-Din+Hamadani+poison&source=bl&ots=HZ2EAQag5q&sig=g1bSWmAOJric4UksDeBnilS6_NE&hl=en&sa=X&ei=bMXNUrX8J63y7AbQ0YH4Dg&ved=0CFUQ6AEwBQ#v=onepage&q=Rashid-al-Din%20Hamadani%20poison&f=false - http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=N7_4Gr9Q438C&pg=PA145&lpg=PA145&dq=Rashid-al-Din+Hamadani+poison&source=bl&ots=HZ2EAQag5q&sig=g1bSWmAOJric4UksDeBnilS6_NE&hl=en&sa=X&ei=bMXNUrX8J63y7AbQ0YH4Dg&ved=0CFUQ6AEwBQ#v=onepage&q=Rashid-al-Din%20Hamadani%20poison&f=false This book gives a wider picture of Rashid-al Din's life; http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=3NZpbDOSAcQC&pg=PA126&lpg=PA126&dq=sultaniyya+rashid-al&source=bl&ots=8HAztVjW0C&sig=c5REJPNH57_hGJqIxYfUXOedk4o&hl=en&sa=X&ei=L8nNUty6BKOO7AbJsICwBA&ved=0CDIQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=sultaniyya%20rashid-al&f=false - http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=3NZpbDOSAcQC&pg=PA126&lpg=PA126&dq=sultaniyya+rashid-al&source=bl&ots=8HAztVjW0C&sig=c5REJPNH57_hGJqIxYfUXOedk4o&hl=en&sa=X&ei=L8nNUty6BKOO7AbJsICwBA&ved=0CDIQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=sultaniyya%20rashid-al&f=false I can add that he was the son of Imad al-Dawla ben Abu al-Khayr, and he himself had fourteen sons, eight of whom became governors of provinces, and whose lives and careers are known. How much more information do you require? |
Posted By: opuslola
Date Posted: 08-Jan-2014 at 18:06
Any of them shown above. Most all of them look almost identical to modern bindings, etc. Ron ------------- http://www.quotationspage.com/subjects/history/ |
Posted By: Sidney
Date Posted: 08-Jan-2014 at 18:57
Book binding is far older than book printing, and the books above illustrate the normal practise of placing book pages between hard covers of wood or leather, in order to protect them. As this is the same technique as done today with hard back books, then they will look similar. It is a very straight forward method, so what startling difference are you expecting to see? There is variation however. The last two illustrations exhibit books with flat spines, which shows they have been stitched to the board covers in a manner common to book binding up until the 15th Century. After that period, which is illustrated in the other pictures, books started to get a curve in their spine because the pages were sewn together and then attached to the covers which wrapped around three sides of the book. Perhaps this technique is older than you realised? |
Posted By: opuslola
Date Posted: 08-Jan-2014 at 20:44
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Yes my friend it may well be!
Thanks, Ron ------------- http://www.quotationspage.com/subjects/history/ |
Posted By: opuslola
Date Posted: 09-Jan-2014 at 11:49
From an old posting at this very site; http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=28094 Also Saladin in same form. Ron ------------- http://www.quotationspage.com/subjects/history/ |
Posted By: Sidney
Date Posted: 09-Jan-2014 at 16:31
You have an image of Julius Caesar, painted in the 14th Century, dressed in 14th Century armour and surrounded by people dressed in 14th Century costume. But there are illustrations of Caesar from the 13th Century in 13th Century costume, and also many paintings from the 15th Century that show Caesar and attendants in 15th Century costume, and from the 16th Century dressed in 16th Century costume, and from the 17th Century dressed in 17th Century costume. My answer, as it is above when referring to Jerome, will be the same for Julius Caesar. Should you choose to give the same response as you did above, our exchange will have to settle on a disagreement. |
Posted By: opuslola
Date Posted: 09-Jan-2014 at 21:54
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Sidney! You are a priceless person to speak unto! You seem to have an almost unlimited access to many places in the ancient world than do I? Please keep this up! More regards than you can understand! Ron ------------- http://www.quotationspage.com/subjects/history/ |
Posted By: opuslola
Date Posted: 12-Jan-2014 at 19:40
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I think I actually have a post showing the depiction of Saladin!
'De bello civili' by Lucan that portrays Julius Caesar after the victory over Pompey; the settting is typically mediaeval. Milan, Biblioteca Trivulzanniam Ms 691, fol. 86v. Taken from ,'Kostbarkeiten der Buchjunst. Illumination klassicher Werke von Archimedes bis Virgil'. Herausgegeben von Giovanni Morello. Stuttgart-Zurich, Belser Verlag, 1997., p. 33." No, wrong one! I do have it posted somewhere here! Ron ------------- http://www.quotationspage.com/subjects/history/ |
Posted By: opuslola
Date Posted: 15-Jan-2014 at 21:40
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And Sidney, I found that I had posted a clue to book bindings at the wrong site. Here is a copy of the pertinent information;
" http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/7a/Vittore_Crivelli_-_Saint_Bonaventure.jpghttp://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/7a/Vittore_Crivelli_-_Saint_Bonaventure.jpg Ron I presume I posted this site for some reason, but since I sometimes post in an inebriated state, I don't know why I posted it here? But I might well have used the ornate visual aid of an old book that is held in the hand of the venerated saint? Why? Because in another post, I held that old book bindings were very different from the more modern ones. So that is it! Regards, Ron " So my response was to show the manner of old book bindings. Perhaps you could post the image I was trying to convey? ------------- http://www.quotationspage.com/subjects/history/ |
Posted By: Sidney
Date Posted: 16-Jan-2014 at 10:50
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Hello opuslola. Thank you for the image. I'm not absolutely sure whether you are corroborating or trying to query my post on the age of book binding.
The painting you give shows a book with a curved spin, which in my post I said started to appear in the 15th Century. The painting was made c.1500, and so agrees with my statement. Whatever the reason, thanks for continuing your search for knowledge. |
Posted By: opuslola
Date Posted: 16-Jan-2014 at 21:49
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Sidney! Are we looking at the same depiction?
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/7a/Vittore_Crivelli_-_Saint_Bonaventure.jpg I just see it as most different than my first depiction! Please compare the depictions in my first post with this one? And, just what does a "curved spine" have to do with anything? Regards, Ron %20 - http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/7a/Vittore_Crivelli_-_Saint_Bonaventure.jpg By the way, I drink every night! It makes my life easier! LOL ------------- http://www.quotationspage.com/subjects/history/ |
Posted By: Sidney
Date Posted: 17-Jan-2014 at 10:57
Hello opuslola. I'm seeing this image; 
My reply was related it to this comment by you;
which I took to be referring to this previous post by me;
which explains why I mentioned the curved spines on the books in the above painting. If we have our wires crossed, could you help me understand? I do not know which 'first post' you are referring to (could you quote it?), nor what I'm meant to be comparing. |