Ancient Jews were Kurds
Printed From: History Community ~ All Empires
Category: Regional History or Period History
Forum Name: Ancient Mesopotamia, Near East and Greater Iran
Forum Discription: Babylon, Egypt, Persia and other civilizations of the Near East from ancient times to 600s AD
URL: http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=29149
Printed Date: 24-Apr-2024 at 01:50
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Topic: Ancient Jews were Kurds
Posted By: MediaWarLord
Subject: Ancient Jews were Kurds
Date Posted: 11-Feb-2011 at 06:28
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All I know is that Abraham is the father of the Hebrew nation. And he is from Kurdistan. He was born in Riha. Riha is a Kurdish city in western Kurdistan. Hebrew name for GOD is YAHWEH. Yahweh is a Hurrian word (Hurrian GOD) and it dates from the Abraham times. It's from upper parts of the north Mesopotamia.
Also there is a genetic bond betweet the Jews and the Kurds (Medo-Hurrians).
Last year I saw a Jewish documentary on the Dutch national television network, where it was said that Jews are the offspring of the Kurds from Aram-Naharaim / Kurdistan (Mesopotamia).
If you understand Hebrew, it's literally said that Jews are descendants of the Kurds. So if Jews are saying that and want to be Kurds, who am I to refute that.
  You can find this statement at 25:50 (25 min. 50 sec.) in this documentary here:
http://www.joodseomroep.nl/:programma/israel+tussen+droom+en+werkelijkheid/de+toekomst.html - http://www.joodseomroep.nl/:programma/israel+tussen+droom+en+werkelijkheid/de+toekomst.html
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Replies:
Posted By: Ince
Date Posted: 11-Feb-2011 at 08:13
No they were NOT. You seem to mix up the ancient people with todays Kurds, the Hurrians were not reffered to as Kurds. Georgians and other caucasians descend from the Hurrrians, what they are also Kurds?  . Also what the hittites were Turks?Kurds are partly Hurrians, the Hurrians and other ancient people were not Kurds, do Kurds speak a Caucasian or Semetic language? Do Kurds have a Caucasian culture? No. You seem to be like the Kurdish historian Izady, claiming every people that inhabitated Kurdstan as Kurds. ------------- |
Posted By: MediaWarLord
Date Posted: 11-Feb-2011 at 08:46
Even Jews are saying that they are descendants of the Kurds.
Kurds have Hurrian and Median genes in them. Hurrians were our ancestrors, and they came from, and lived in Kurdistan.
And no, Hittites were not Turks. But some modern Turks are Hittites. Hittites are their ancestors, they live on in Turks. Like Hurrians live on in Kurds.
Hurrians are not dead, they're not vanished. They live on in Kurds, they passed their genes to us. Why don't you understand that? Hurrians evolved in Kurds.
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Posted By: MediaWarLord
Date Posted: 11-Feb-2011 at 08:49
Where do you think the sun on our Kurdish flag is from? This shows a continuation of the Hurrian culture...
 The sun (represents our religion, the Yezidism) is a continuation of the Hurrian culture. The sun = Hurrian!!!
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Posted By: Ince
Date Posted: 11-Feb-2011 at 09:32
Those sites just repeat what Izady was saying, I am sorry but I do not see any similarties between Caucasians and Kurds. Izady claimed that the Kurdish tribe Barzani is the name of the Hurrian god, but we can find Iranic terms of it as well, it even sounds Iranic. Sun worship was practiced by many people. you can also find the picture of the sun in the pre-1979 iranian flag and other early iranian dynastys, the sun is also in reliefs in a Median tomb, that you had showed me on another thread. Izady is criticized by many people for making up alot of what he wrote to glorify Kurdish history, their might be some Hurrian in the Kurds, but not the way izady said it. Yhttp://landofkarda.blogspot.com/2010/05/scythian-mythology-and-yazdanism.html - Scythian mythology and Yazdanism http://www.xoxol.org/putin/her-facing.jpg">  Yazdanism is a conventional name for the pre-Islamic religion of the Kurds, before it developed into three branches of Ezidism, Yarsanism and Alevism, now practiced by small communities in central, southern and northern Kurdistan, respectively. A peculiarity of these religions which they share together and basically originates from Yazdanism is belief in a heptad of divine beings. In Ezidism for instance, the world is in the care of a Heptad of seven Holy Beings, often known as Angels or heft sirr (the Seven Mysteries). Preeminent among these is Tawûse Melek or Melek Tawus, literally meaning ''The peacock angel''. In Scythian mythology, which is sporadically known through Greek sources, a heptad of seven deities are worshiped, greatest of all being ''Tabithi'' or ''Tabiti'' who was ''queen of animals'' and ''godess of fire''. Besides the resemblance of the name which fully corresponds with Kurdish historical phonology (b> w, θ>s, hence: Tabithi > Tawus), both divinities have smiliar characters: being the greatest of the heptad and queen of animals (peacock has been often described as such). One more amazing similarity is that in the Scythian mythology, the heptad divinities each represent a planet, as in Ezidism in which each divinity has been created in a week-day, (week-day names basically represent planets). Another Scythian goddess, "Api", depicted as having snakes instead of legs (image), precisely corresponds with the famous Kurdish mythological character, " http://landofkarda.blogspot.com/2009/02/shameran.html - Shameran ". ------------- |
Posted By: Ince
Date Posted: 11-Feb-2011 at 09:35
So what if they are saying it? it does not mean anything what other people claim. ------------- |
Posted By: MediaWarLord
Date Posted: 11-Feb-2011 at 12:38
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I don't know about the Scythians, but Hurrians always lived in Kurdistan. I think the Scythian origin of the Kurds is just a myth, and nothing more. I'm not such a supporter of the Scythians.
Yezidi Kurds have just 1 GOD. The one who created the Kurds. And that is Ezide Sor ( (X)Gode Shams = Sun GOD ). When we pronounce his name we refer to the sun. Hurrians did the same with their sky GOD, Teshub.
Meleke Taus is the chief angel of 7 angels. He is the ruler of this planet and maybe equal to GOD in power. And we don't choose between Meleke Taus or Ezide Sor. We love them both. But Meleke Taus didn't create the Kurds, that's why he is not our GOD. I think that the Yezidism as a religion is much older than Scythians. Yezidism is a pure Kurdish religion that has got it roots in Kurdistan. The Yezidism is thousands of years old.
I don't think that Scythians have their roots in our beautiful country. They came from somewhere else.
BTW, I don't exclude that the proto-Kurds influenced the Scythians and the Medes.
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Posted By: Ince
Date Posted: 11-Feb-2011 at 19:31
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You seem to also be motivated by religous views, I am my self an Atheist, my family were Alevi so, Atheism was not a big step as my family were not very religoius. So where do you think the Zaza and Kurmanji Kurds who have the tribal name Alan come from? The Alan were a Scythian tribe. The Greeks use to refer to Sycthians around the Black sea and Iran as the Budhi, that sounds very similar to the large Kurdish tribe in Anatolia, the Boti/Buti. Sycthian capital was also in Kurdistan. Many more evidence that points Sycthian element within in the Kurds. On another thread you were crying about the Kurds and Medes and about how Hawramani is close to Avestan and now you are pro-Hurrians? Also Hurrians did not always live in Kurdistan, they came from the North and likely even Hurranised the native population that was present as well. Yezidism is believe to have it's roots in the Mittani, which was a dynasty ruled by Indo-Aryans, as Yezidism shares similarties with Hindusim.
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Posted By: opuslola
Date Posted: 11-Feb-2011 at 19:48
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Of course every-one's opinion concerning any relationship between the people we today consider as "Kurds", and the Jews (Whey?), is mostly related to the time period one considers!
Certainly there seems to be some Biblcal evidence that the Jews exciled from their nation, might well have been sent to some point in the area we now refer to as Kurdistan, etc., many years ago! The point seems to be that this mass of Jews, never seems to have been heard of again? So, perhaps the more "modern" Kurds are descendants of the exciled Jews? Technically, anyone can argue either point with equal immunity! Most Kurds of the past, seemed to have accepted Jesus as their saviour at one point! Or, am I confused? ------------- http://www.quotationspage.com/subjects/history/ |
Posted By: Ince
Date Posted: 11-Feb-2011 at 20:10
Their is no evidence of Kurds descending from Jews. No credibale historian has ever made any connection, apart from Jews themselves who seem to want to cluster themselves with Kurds, for some reason. No kurds never accepted Jesus, apart maybe Muslim Kurds of today. Only some Kurds in Anatolia were Christians due to the Roman rule. ------------- |
Posted By: MediaWarLord
Date Posted: 11-Feb-2011 at 22:12
You can be an atheist or agnostic. Whatever you want to be, I don’t care! But I am who I am.
You’re mixing some things. The proto-Kurds migrated to Europe and central Asia. Those people were referred as ARYAN. Some of them mixed with the local population (of central Asia and maybe eastern Europe) and came back to Kurdistan. One of those people were the Medes. Why do you think that people of Kurdistan accepted the Medes ( + Scythians) with open arms? The great Medes came back to Kurdistan (their homeland) and we Kurdified them again.
Buddhism, Hinduism, Zoroastrianism, Mazdaism, Mithraism in Europe are all offspring of the native Kurdish religion, the Yezidism. When proto-Kurds migrated to central Asia and Europe they took a Kurdish religion with them. Native people of central Asia were influenced by the proto-Kurds and founded some "new" religions, like Buddhism, Hinduism. The same happened with the Europeans. They were influenced by the proto-Kurds and founded a "new" religion, Mithraism.
It was their interpretation of our native religion.
About the Mithraism:
" ... Beck believes that the cult was created in Rome, by a single founder who had some knowledge of both Greek and Oriental religion, but suggests that some of the ideas used may have passed through the Hellenistic kingdoms: "Mithras — moreover, a Mithras who was identified with the Greek Sun god, Helios, ... was one of the deities of the syncretic Graeco-Iranian royal cult founded by Antiochus I, king of the small, but prosperous "buffer" state of Commagene, in the mid 1st century BC". ...
... The banquet scene features Mithras and the Sun god banqueting on the hide of the slaughtered bull ...
... According to 3rd-4th century AD philosopher Porphyry, Mithraists considered that their cult was founded by Zoroaster. ...."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mithraic_mysteries - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mithraic_mysteries
That Sun GOD motif was taken from the proto-Kurds, the Yezidism. Know your history, bro. Our history is maybe as great as the Chinese history ...
Jews were proto-Kurds too. When they migrated to Israel the original proto-Kurdish religion evolved in Judaism.
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Posted By: Ince
Date Posted: 11-Feb-2011 at 22:40
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Please stop reffering to ancient people as Proto-Kurds, they were not Kurds. The term Kurds comes from the Guti, which was also used for Nomads and Mountainers as well. Modern Humans Homo-Sapiens originated in Ethiopia, so what Ethiopeans can claim that all humans are Ethiopeans, even when the term was coined up recentaly?. The Aryans and IE did not originate in Anatolia, the Anatolian theory is outdated and the Kurgan theory is more widely accepted. Yezidism was influenced by Indo-Aryans and not the other way around, the Indo-Aryans arrived in a region that was populated by Caucasian people. Sun worship has been part of Human history ever since humans started to think. The Chinese, Egypt were all Kurds as well. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_deity - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_deity Some of your other comments are just too ridiculas to even reply to, re-Kurdify... You seem to a have mentality and child like logic, in which to glorify your own ego, you want to claim everything as Kurdish and associate anything great with Kurds. Their for I am not going to reply as I will just be going around in circles. ------------- |
Posted By: TheNode
Date Posted: 12-Feb-2011 at 07:34
I completely agree, its common of broken people and nations to invent and glorify the past, for example, the Macedonians, Serbia etc.
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Posted By: Putty19
Date Posted: 12-Feb-2011 at 08:27
I heard Adam and Eve were Kurds, I guess that makes us all descendants of Kurds  I gotta admit MediaWarLord, you're one of the funniest people I have come across |
Posted By: Zert
Date Posted: 12-Feb-2011 at 09:07
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I saw the same topic on forumbiodiversity (kinda), the conclusion was that the Assyrians were closer, genetically, to the Jews. http://www.forumbiodiversity.com/showthread.php?t=11127 - http://www.forumbiodiversity.com/showthread.php?t=11127
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Posted By: red clay
Date Posted: 12-Feb-2011 at 09:10
I'm waiting to see if he has a Kurdish connection to the Inca. ------------- "Arguing with someone who hates you or your ideas, is like playing chess with a pigeon. No matter what move you make, your opponent will walk all over the board and scramble the pieces". Unknown. |
Posted By: MediaWarLord
Date Posted: 12-Feb-2011 at 09:53
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Why it's so funny completely escapes me. It makes more sense than all other theories combined.
And why is the repatriation of people so weird? It happens all the time. Jews repatriated after 2000 years to their promised land!
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Posted By: MediaWarLord
Date Posted: 12-Feb-2011 at 10:19
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BTW, Jews identify themselves with the proto-Kurds from 'Aram-Naharaim'. Not me! I'm just emphasizing and sympathizing their thoughts! |
Posted By: Cent
Date Posted: 15-Feb-2011 at 07:13
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MediaWarLord, you're embarrassing. You have no solid proof. You sound like all other ultra-nationalists claiming other people's history. Now stop it. ------------- They don't speak enough about the Kurds, because we have never taken hostages, never hijacked a plane. But I am proud of this. Abdul Rahman Qassemlou |
Posted By: red clay
Date Posted: 15-Feb-2011 at 08:52
 ------------- "Arguing with someone who hates you or your ideas, is like playing chess with a pigeon. No matter what move you make, your opponent will walk all over the board and scramble the pieces". Unknown. |
Posted By: MediaWarLord
Date Posted: 15-Feb-2011 at 19:48
History of what people am I claiming or stealing? And I'm chauvinistic, less than an average Frenchman! But I try hard to be a little bit more nationalistic. The reason why Kurds don't have own country is because they're not nationalistic enough! And I do everything to compensate that. I'm proud of my ancestors and my people's history.
And I think it's healthy (and harmless) patriotism, nothing wrong with that.
But this topic is about the Jews and about their origin and their roots. Where do you think the Jews are from? Do you have some ideas>
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Posted By: medenaywe
Date Posted: 16-Feb-2011 at 03:35
| According to biggest world history forgery You are right!?!Huge substance of ancient people was separated among there masters and world that we know today was established. |
Posted By: Baal Melqart
Date Posted: 28-Mar-2011 at 15:52
I respect your love and nationalism for your country and I wish that one day Kurdistan may become a genuinely free nation. Jews ARE genetically linked to Kurds and Turks. This was shown in a study by the University of Tel Aviv which compared the genes of Arabs, Kurds, Turks and Israelis. The mistake you made though was in saying that they were related to 'ancient' Jews. Modern Jews are related to Kurds not the ancient Israelies who in fact share almost not genes with the modern Israeli. This is obvious since nowadays you find so many Ashkenazi Jews (80% of total Jews) come originally from places like Eastern Europe. Jews nowadays don't even look Semitic in any respect which is also why genetic analysis showed no similarity with other Semites (Arabs). ------------- Timidi mater non flet |
Posted By: MediaWarLord
Date Posted: 28-Mar-2011 at 18:31
I believe that nationalism is deeply rooted in a human nature. Only some enlightened persons succeeded to get rid of racism, chauvinism and nationalism. And I'm not an enlightened person at all. I'm a cynic. With all due respect, I think enlightened people are naive fools or hypocrites & liars!
I believe that the Jews are related to the ancient Hurrians. Kurds are a mix of the Hurrians AND the Iranic people. The closest people to Kurds are Persians. Kurds nowadays are more Iranic than Caucasian (Hurrian). Genetic and linguistic ties between the Kurds and the (real) Persians can be compared to those of the Poles and the Ukrainians. (I do consider the Lurs and the Kurds as the same people.)
Ancient Jews that left Kurdistan carried eastern Anatolian and southern Caucasian y-dna haplogroups Hg J2 and Hg G2 with them. These Hg's are very common among the Jews and this is a very good indication of their Kurdistan (Aram-Naharaim/Mesopotamian) origin.
   http://www.eupedia.com/europe/european_y-dna_haplogroups.shtml - http://www.eupedia.com/europe/european_y-dna_haplogroups.shtml
When they migrated southwards they mixed with other people. Jews changed many times their native land. The distance between Kurds and the Jews became bigger. Modern Jews are a mix of the Euros, Semites (Hg J1) and proto-Kurds. But they are still connected to the modern Kurds.
Races don't exist. There is just 1 human race. But Jews ARE Semitic or Semites. Jews are Semites because they speak a Semitic language! |
Posted By: Baal Melqart
Date Posted: 29-Mar-2011 at 16:41
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Genetically they are not Semites though, that is what I am deliberating about. There are so many Africans who speak say French, that doesn't mean that ethnically they are French, does it? Same thing with the Jews. Mordern Jews might be connected to Kurds which strengthens my theory that they are not in fact Semites. The Israelites WERE pure Semites and these mordern Jews are not so much linked to them. So many as I have already stated come from Eastern Europe, Iran, Spain, Kurdistan and Ethiopia. The only Semites in Israel nowadays are the Jews who came from Arab countries, namely the Yemenites.
------------- Timidi mater non flet |
Posted By: ETL_Guy
Date Posted: 29-Mar-2011 at 17:35
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What I've read is that many European Jews were descended from the Khazars, who were a Turkic people settled north of the Caspian Sea, that converted to Judaism. Ancient Israelites were more closely related to today's Yemeni, Ethiopian, or Somali people, Cushitic people of Afro-Asiatic origins. I have nothing against Kurds in general, and I do have ancestral roots in what is considered Kurdistan to be sure, but it seems like you are attributing Kurdish nationality to everyone from Moroccan Berbers to Koreans here. Yes, the Caucasus is a cradle of civilization, along with Mesopotamia, the Indian sub-continent, and the African rift zone, and there are genetic and linguistic footprints leading back to these places from all over the world. However, it doesn't serve much purpose to say so-and-so are related to Kurds any more than to say so-and-so are related to Tamils or Ethiopians.
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Posted By: MediaWarLord
Date Posted: 29-Mar-2011 at 17:48
| Jews changed many times their home place, but never gave up their ancient language (Hebrew), culture and religion (Judaism). Great, great people! |
Posted By: Baal Melqart
Date Posted: 29-Mar-2011 at 17:54
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That's not fair Media. We are discussing genetics so why do you keep bringing up language, culture and religion? They are all adopted into people who are genetically no longer the same. Their writing by the way is adopted from Babylonian cursive just for your info.
------------- Timidi mater non flet |
Posted By: MediaWarLord
Date Posted: 29-Mar-2011 at 18:02
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Posted By: Baal Melqart
Date Posted: 29-Mar-2011 at 18:48
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Well that's ironic because THEY are extinct :D
------------- Timidi mater non flet |
Posted By: MediaWarLord
Date Posted: 29-Mar-2011 at 19:14
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Posted By: Baal Melqart
Date Posted: 30-Mar-2011 at 18:23
According to the Jews... It seems very plausible to me that you can basically add many different ethnicities to a group of people so long as you keep the culture element unchanged. That is in my opinion what happened with the Jews, culturally Semites I agree, but genetics tell a totally different story. The fact of the matter is that their modern links to the Kurds only proves my point further since we know that Kurds are definitely not Semites, but Indo-Europeans. You can say whatever you want, just don't tell me that if we brought a mordern Israeli and Moses or David and compared them that they would be similar in any way, because that is not gonna be the case. ------------- Timidi mater non flet |
Posted By: Putty19
Date Posted: 31-Mar-2011 at 20:12
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This get's even funnier, Media starts discussing haplogroups that he has no knowledge of along with a possible Arab who tries to deny the Jewishness of the Jewish people, brilliant |
Posted By: Baal Melqart
Date Posted: 31-Mar-2011 at 20:25
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Well, how would you know, what defines a Jew in your opinion? I'm just saying that the last name of Abraham or Joshua definitely wasn't Weinstein or Grunwalt... Just saying...
------------- Timidi mater non flet |
Posted By: Putty19
Date Posted: 01-Apr-2011 at 01:12
First of all, being Jewish means you follow the religion of Judaism, it has nothing to do with genetics, but even then, one must understand that not all Jews are European, there are many middle eastern Jews from Iraq, Iran, Yemen, Syria, Egypt, etc that look just like any other middle eastern groups. Second of all, European Jews do actually have middle eastern ancestors, this has been proven by both, recent ancestry (Autosomal DNA) and deep ancestry (Y-DNA/mtDNA), yes they are mixed (Everyone is mixed), but they are clearly different from other Europeans since they carry a good chunk of middle eastern DNA where other Europeans don't, check out the major genetic project which deals with Autosomal DNA: http://dodecad.blogspot.com/  Both Ashkenazi and Sephardi Jews have a good chunk of West Asian/Southwest Asian DNA which is very low in other Europeans, West Asian is usually more common in North Middle Eastern populations and can be spread in some South European populations who have affiliation with middle easterners (Italians and Greeks for example), while Southwest Asian is more common in the South Middle East populations, in fact, according to the percentages from the K=10 run, the Ashkenazi Jews (So-called German Jews) are not that much different from the Syrians a side from the Northern European mix (Which is obvious): https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0ArAJcY18g2GadDRCd0dva0dwTzc3a0JicjZmRE96bGc&hl=en&authkey=CPGxtqQM#gid=0 As far as deep ancestry goes, the Jews carry mostly Middle Eastern lineages, the so called Semitic marker (J1c3d) is actually quite common among them, along with other Middle Eastern lineages such as J1, J2, G, E1b1b1, R1b1b2, etc: http://www.familytreedna.com/public/JewishDNAProject/default.aspx?section=yresults The bottom line is, European or not, Ashkenazi/Sephardi Jews are different from Europeans and do have a good amount of middle eastern ancestry, you can deny it all you want, but the facts don't agree with you. |
Posted By: MediaWarLord
Date Posted: 01-Apr-2011 at 08:44
You're right about the fact that a lot of so called Jews are not Jews at all.
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Posted By: Baal Melqart
Date Posted: 01-Apr-2011 at 18:40
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@Putty, that will not suffice to convince me since I'm not a genetic engineer and I don't exactly trust such complex information if it is not from an approved, peer-reviewed research article. I'm sure if your information is true then someone of authority must have published something on that topic. Otherwise, if they had any substantial amount of middle-eastern ancestry then they would be somewhat remarkably different from their European brethrens, which they are not. You said it yourself, everyone is mixed so everyone might have a small percentage of middle-eastern ancestry... Secondly Putty, you are wrong in one respect which is that Judaism is a very secular religion unlike Islam and christianity. Goyim can't convert to Judaism according to Torah laws therefore a Jew is an ethnical term not a religious denomination. Yahweh gave Moses Israel because he and his people were Jewish. He never tried to convert anyone in Egypt to come with them clearly because Israel was promised to JEWS who were expatriated to Egypt. This is in contrast with prophets like Jesus who tried to spread his teachings to as many as he could regardless of ethnicity. ------------- Timidi mater non flet |
Posted By: Baal Melqart
Date Posted: 01-Apr-2011 at 18:55
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By the way, I looked at the project. It is posted on blogspot so excuse me but the credibility is not exactly great. Second, the terms used are quite vague like 'South west asian' and 'west asian'. That could apply to Iran as much as any country in the Middle-East. Even if it were specifically a Semitic gene, it probably wouldn't be enough because ancient Israelites were quite different from Phoenicians, Babylonians, Akkadians, Canaanites, Nabataeans and other Semites that have existed in the region over the span of history. You would have to track down a gene that only the ancient Israelites had to prove that these modern Jews are in fact related.
------------- Timidi mater non flet |
Posted By: Putty19
Date Posted: 01-Apr-2011 at 21:55
So because the information is complex you don't want to trust it? LOL, that's like saying the car engine is quite complex, therefore I don't trust it enough to use a car In any case, this website is actually very well respected and reliable, these so called blogs that you do not trust have been actually featured on Nature News online where scientists have praised their work and called it legit: http://www.nature.com/news/2010/101215/full/468880a.html I would take the words of real scientists over the words of someone who has no knowledge of the subject, not to mention that sooner of later their work will be published, it's just that publications take a long time (This is coming from someone who works in a Publisher company).
I don't care what the stories in the Bible say, if you try to give me evidence based on Bible, Quran, or whatever other religious texts you have then you're wasting your time, either show me proper facts or there's no point in discussing. The other thing is you're wrong about Judaism, they do accept converts, even the Ultra Orthodox Jewish movements accept converts, but to them they have a tradition of turning and discouraging the person who want's to convert 3 times, after that they allow the conversion and consider the person just as Jewish as the others based on their rules, would there be discrimination? Perhaps, but this person's offspring will eventually merge in with the rest of the Jewish people and become just as Jew as the rest, in fact that's how they obtained some of their European blood.
I already proved the credibility of the sites so that's out of the way, as far as West Asian and Southwest Asian, I already said that West Asian means the northern parts of the middle east, this includes Iraq, Iran, Turkey, Syria, Lebanon, Israel/Palestine, Armenia, etc, while Southwest Asian includes the Arab Gulf countries. As far as tracking down ancient genes, if you ask me to prove that the Jews are real Semites I ask you to prove to me that the Arabs are real Semites too, heck a Saudi differs from a Syrian who differs from an Egyptian who differs from an Iraqi who differs from a Moroccan who differs from whatever, who gave you the crown and called you the top Semite? Arabs are just as mixed as Jews, the only thing is instead of European genes, they tend to carry other different type of genes (Some Arabs for example have a good chunk African blood, and this is a fact due to the migration path and slavery). |
Posted By: Baal Melqart
Date Posted: 02-Apr-2011 at 09:30
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Everyone is mixed I agree, but Arabs are surely Semites because they have been in the Arabian Peninsula for millenia, unlike Jews. Don't try and turn the table here, Arabs are Semites in every way possible. Even before the Islamic Conquest, nations like Syrians, Lebanese and Iraqi had been Semites for over millenia and I don't need to prove that because it is obvious. Even according to Dodecad, they are a lot purer than Jews. Sure, Jews are accepting converts NOW. They did not during the kingdom of Yishrael. Nor did they afterwards. There were though occasions in which mass conversions happened (ie: Khazars) which I doubt was merely political in nature. You don't seem to have commented on whether they could identify a gene belonging to the Israelites. I'm assuming that's because they can't which is why all you can possibly prove is that Jews have 10% 'Middle-Eastern' blood which is like saying that they have a 99.99% chance of having Arab blood instead of actual Jewish blood. Odds are looking bleak for you I'm afraid. Also, you mentioned earlier that there were a lot of Semites in the Sephardim group. That is true but then as you said, those came from Arab countries which were harbouring Jews before the advent of the Juden Staat. You see, you are now trying to confuse readers by using the terms ' Jew' and 'Semite' interchangeably. An Israelite Jew is a Semite, but a Semite is not necessarily a Jew. In conclusion, 80% of Jews are Ashkenazim and have 10% Middle-Eastern blood. This 10% is not specifically identified as being Jewish or linked in any way to the ancient Israelites. The other 20% of Jews are Sephardim many of which come from Arab countries. Again that does not mean they are ethnically Jewish. Remember that I am constantly referring to Dodecad which says that they have good portions of West Asian and South West Asian blood. ------------- Timidi mater non flet |
Posted By: Putty19
Date Posted: 02-Apr-2011 at 16:10
First of all, the term Semite is either used for language or biblical reference, there are no historical facts of a person named Shem/Sam for us to sit there and say "Hey, this person comes from Shem", get it? Since that's the case, let's stick to facts. If we throw the religious term out of the window since it has no facts, we will have to look back at the language term, as of today the Jews are Semites because their main language is Hebrew, even those European Jews who speak Jewish Indo-European languages like Yiddish or Ladino have their base language as Hebrew, they have this tradition because they have Jewish ancestors from the middle east that passed these traditions, I actually have a very good example of this, there has been Assyrians from the 1700's that migrated from the Assyrian homeland to Russia/Ukraine, their offspring today speaks Russian and only a very small percentage of them speaks Assyrian, but their base language and traditions are Assyrian, they mixed a little with other Russians but they still identify as Assyrian, to me they're Assyrian, not Russian, it's the same thing with the Jews in Europe but they've been there longer. Also why shouldn't I turn this against Arabs? Some Arabs are very mixed, why should we call them "Semites" but not call the Jews that? Who are you to determine what percentages you can start calling yourself a Semite? Semite in itself is a bogus term, and since West Asian and Southwest Asian are the only middle eastern portions (Semites and other non-Semites), check out how mixed some Arab groups can be: Syrians West Asian - 37.2% Southwest Asian - 33.1% Other - 29.7% Jordanians West Asian - 31.3% Southwest Asian - 33.9% Other - 34.8% Egyptians West Asian - 19.1% Southwest Asian - 38.9% Other - 42% That's not to mention that the vast majority of the West Asian genes are not actual Semitic speakers, meaning the so called Semitic mix in these Arab groups is easily less than 50%.
If they accept less converts and Muslims accept a lot of converts shouldn't that make the Arabs more mixed? In some cases, certain Arab groups are more mixed than Jews in general, the less mixed Arabs I can think of are Saudis (Depending from which region you test) and the Bedouins, and even they're not 100% pure since they have some African and South Asian genes.
Didn't you not see the Y-DNA frequency I showed you from the Jewish ancestry project at Family Tree DNA? The vast majority of Jews have middle eastern lineages such as J1, J2, E1b1b1, G, etc, and not just any other lineages, but all the J1 carriers carry the so called Semitic marker (J1c3d) which is also carried by a lot of Arabs, this lineage does not exist in Europeans unless they have middle eastern origins: http://www.familytreedna.com/public/JewishDNAProject/default.aspx?section=yresults Also for the record, even the Arabs of the Arabian Peninsula don't come from Arabia originally, since the majority carry haplogroup J1c3d, this lineage is the son of J1c3 which is the son of J1c which is the son of J1*, haplogroup J1 originated between the mountains of the Zagros and Tarsus around Eastern Anatolia (Southeast Turkey), during he Neolithic times herders used to wander in those lands and some of them migrated south toward Arabia, their first major pit-stop was actually the Levant where they possibly fused with some males that carried haplogroup E1b1b1c1 which originated around the Sinai area (E1b1b1 which is the parent of E1b1b1c1 originated in Eastern Africa and some of the offspring migrated to the middle east), this fusion of the J1c3d and the E1b1b1c1 males in the Levant was the creation of the Proto-Semitic language, some of them migrated further south to Arabia (Where the Arabs come from), some of them migrated to Eastern Africa where some of these languages are spoken today in the form of Amharic, Tigrigna, etc, some migrated to Mesopotamia (Akkadians), while the majority stayed in the homeland in the Levant where languages such as Amorite, Aramaic, Hebrew, Phoenician, etc, and this is actually backed up by a real scientific study of the J1 marker: The emergence of Y-chromosome haplogroup J1e among Arabic-speaking populations.http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19826455 - http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19826455 That's hardcore scientific proof to you that Arabs are not originally from Arabia as you think, but rather from the mountains of the Zagros, that's where the majority of their paternal ancestors are from if we go back thousands of years ago.
You do realize that the Jews of Iraq and Iran were real Judeans that were carried captive by Nabukhadnassar of the Neo-Babylonian dynasty right? This has been recorded in Babylonian history, well their offspring still exists to this day, in other words no, I'm not confusing the reader between Jew and Semite, when I say Jew I mean Jew, that's besides the fact that all Jews around the world carry Jewish traditions, that in my opinion is good enough proof that they have Jewish ancestry.
If you're referring to Dodecad, then perhaps you should check your figures right before you post what you posted, if we go by West Asian/Southwest Asian DNA, the Ashkenazi and Sephardi Jews both carry 45% to 50% Middle Eastern ancestry, not 10% as you claim. I'm sorry but this Arab propaganda is not gonna work, all the scientific and logical facts go against what you preach, the European Jews have a large portion of Middle Eastern ancestry and have actual Jewish traditions. |
Posted By: Baal Melqart
Date Posted: 02-Apr-2011 at 18:05
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This wasn't Arabic propaganda, I'm just a flexible thinker. Well you supplied so many facts that I must admit you are right, Jews are linked to the ancient Israelites. I still find it strange that with such a high percentage of West and South West Asian genes that these Ashkenazim don't look so different from Europeans nor do they look Middle-Eastern. Is it that European genes are more dominant over the latter genes?
------------- Timidi mater non flet |
Posted By: Putty19
Date Posted: 02-Apr-2011 at 20:21
European Jews don't fully look North European actually, you can often distinguish between a North European and a Jew, they have a European element of course since they're about 15% to 20% North European and 30% to 35% South European (South European values are also significant in North Middle Eastern populations), so of course they will have some European influence, but I mean even within these European Jews it's very obvious that many of them look nothing like your average white North European. |
Posted By: Baal Melqart
Date Posted: 02-Apr-2011 at 21:31
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Not always the case, just look at people like Nathalie Portman. I would say she looks exactly like the average American, although she is Israeli. But in most cases I agree that there is a slight difference.
------------- Timidi mater non flet |
Posted By: ETL_Guy
Date Posted: 02-Apr-2011 at 22:51
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Hello, guys. I have really enjoyed the dialogue here. As we say where I'm from, I don't have a dog in this fight, the whole Jew vs. Arab thing. Glad to see people engaging in a civil and informative debate while exchanging information... I certainly learned a few things. Speaking as an average American, I would say Natalie Portman looks like a usual Jewish, Italian, or French - American girl. Other than that, I'd say she looks really hot, but that's all subjective. I also pass for an average white American, but check out my ancestry and DNA results. Copied this over from a post I made on the East Asia forum, on the origins of Japanese.
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Posted By: Putty19
Date Posted: 03-Apr-2011 at 03:29
Don't forget that there are also some exceptions within the Middle East that can pass in Europe too, often times the looks alone are not a good indicator, for instance there are some Arabs in the Levant that can look very blond and European, but their genes may say that for most part they're just like any other Middle Easterners. |
Posted By: Baal Melqart
Date Posted: 03-Apr-2011 at 04:53
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That's true, seen my share of blond Lebanese people :)
------------- Timidi mater non flet |
Posted By: MediaWarLord
Date Posted: 03-Apr-2011 at 14:27
Congratulations. Aren't you a little bit confused buddy? According to you ancient Jews who belonged to the haplogroups J2 and G2 aren't from Kurdistan and Semitic speaking people who belong to haplogroup J1 are from Kurdistan. The world is upside down!
Speakers of the Semitic languages who belong to Hg J1, like Arabs and Assyrians, are from the south, Arabia and Africa.
And you mean Kurdistan. Zagros & Eastern Anatolia was Kurdistan, it's still Kurdistan and it will always be Kurdistan!
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Posted By: Baal Melqart
Date Posted: 03-Apr-2011 at 16:04
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I must have missed that part. Aren't Arabs originally from the south of the peninsula in what is now Yemen? As I recall, there were three groups of Amorites each travelled to Assyria, Phoenicia and South Arabia respectively.
------------- Timidi mater non flet |
Posted By: Putty19
Date Posted: 03-Apr-2011 at 16:10
No, that's where you're confused, when one talks about haplogroups and super ancient history of human migration there's no such thing as Kurdistan or Kurds, there are human beings that were hunter gatherers or farmers/herders. The term Kurd is a recent term that has nothing to do with this discussion, in other words no, when J1 and J2 were born, there was no such thing as Kurdistan.
Read the last study I posted in regards to to the J1c3d marker (Which is the most dominant haplogroup among Arabs), its ancestor (J1*) originated in Eastern Anatolia, so has J1c, and J1c3, then we see a migration of some of the men who carried J1c3 to the Levant, around there or perhaps a little before arriving there, the J1c3d mutation was born (Around 5000 years ago), and some of these men made their way to Arabia, possibly right after the creation of the Proto-Semitic language in the Levant area. The proof for this is the diversity of haplogroup J1 is very high and extreme in Eastern Anatolia while it's very low in Arabia, meaning the Arabs in Arabia that carry this lineage are the offspring of a small group, while the groups that live around Anatolia and carry this lineage are the offspring of plenty of different diverse groups which indicates a point of origin. |
Posted By: MediaWarLord
Date Posted: 03-Apr-2011 at 16:53
Now, you're on a denying mode.
The area that we're speaking about IS Kurdistan nowadays. Isn't it? The Kurds have always inhabited those areas. Kurds didn't occur from out of nowhere. And they never left. Ancient Jews had the same roots as the proto-Kurds. After thousands of years proto-Kurds became Iranic people and Jews Semitic.
The difference between Jews and Arabs / Assyrians is that Jews are from the Mesopotamia that mixed with the Semites.
Semitic Assyrians / Arabs came to the Mesopotamia and mixed with local population.
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Posted By: MediaWarLord
Date Posted: 03-Apr-2011 at 17:09
| The only indigenous people in that area (Kurdistan) nowadays are Kurds! |
Posted By: Putty19
Date Posted: 04-Apr-2011 at 02:00
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If that makes you sleep nice and tight at night then be my guest I already said that I won't discuss complicated intellectual topics like this with you because you're not at that level, adios. |
Posted By: MediaWarLord
Date Posted: 04-Apr-2011 at 08:54
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Whatever. But after all you do agree that the ancient Jews are from the Northern Mesopotamia and "Eastern Anatolia" right?
The overwhelmed majority (95+ %) of that area is and was always Kurdish. But hey that's just a footnote.
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Posted By: Rûm
Date Posted: 04-Apr-2011 at 10:38
Ancient Jews were Kurds lol! kurds are not ancient nation they were mix of persians, arabs and armenians
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Posted By: Putty19
Date Posted: 04-Apr-2011 at 15:56
Yea, a footnote of how you have no idea of what you're talking about, the Jews are Kurds because they have Mesopotamian/Anatolian roots? This is funny jokes |
Posted By: MediaWarLord
Date Posted: 04-Apr-2011 at 17:35
Now I do understand why Jews and Kurds found each other...
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Posted By: Baal Melqart
Date Posted: 04-Apr-2011 at 18:47
Kurds are an Iranic people, they are not a mix of Arabs, Armenians and Persians. Kurds are a distinct group of people that have existed at least since late antiquity if not before. Strabo mentions them and refers to them as Karduchians living in Pinaka, modern Finiki. Reference: http://www.jstor.org/pss/25209787 @Putty, it interests me how you seem to understand the history of these genes so well. Any link you might have that goes through the basics? ------------- Timidi mater non flet |
Posted By: red clay
Date Posted: 04-Apr-2011 at 19:24
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Don't want to slow down the give and take here, it's been healthy to a point. It's starting to get a little "testy". Let's not mess up a good thread. ------------- "Arguing with someone who hates you or your ideas, is like playing chess with a pigeon. No matter what move you make, your opponent will walk all over the board and scramble the pieces". Unknown. |
Posted By: Azadi
Date Posted: 04-Apr-2011 at 20:01
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I wish we had the knowledge and wisdom of the ancient Jews. Axxx Felek. ------------- 
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Posted By: Putty19
Date Posted: 05-Apr-2011 at 04:34
There are plenty of links and sources in terms of genetic studies, but it's better to understand the basics first before looking at them, population genetic studies are divided into two types, recent ancestry (The past 2000 years or so) and deep ancestry (This goes back to our human origins in Africa beyond 50,000 years ago). Before looking at what genetic studies have to say, as humans we carry 46 chromosomes, these 46 chromosomes are in 23 pairs (23 + 23 = 46), 22 of the 23 pairs are part of the non-sex chromosomes, these are called the Autosomal DNA which determines everything about us from looks, to shapes, to diseases, to whatever we inherit from our ancestors from all sides, and when I say from all sides I mean from both of your parents who also inherited from their parents (Your Grandparents) who inherited from their parents (Great Grandparents), so on, so you basically carry about 50/50 from your parents, and this 50/50 may be 25/25/25/25 when you look back to your grandparents (These numbers could be different, I'm just giving a general example), these percentages eventually get smaller as you keep going down to the deeper ancestors, of course by the time you go back beyond a 1000 years it would be too diluted to track further, in other words Autosomal DNA is most useful for the last 10 generations and this is the best test to determine recent ancestry and population comparison, so based on Autosomal DNA, they're able to tell the difference between a Saudi Arab and an Indian for example, it's also worthy to mention that the Autosomal DNA is about 96% of our DNA. The 23rd pair of chromosomes are the sex chromosomes, this is what differentiates between males and females, the females carry XX while the males carry XY, for the males the Y-Chromosome is very important in terms of deep ancestry which takes us back all the way to Africa over 50,000 years ago, it's like a last name that's passed down from fathers to sons so the Y-DNA is only exclusive to males (Females cannot test for it since they don't carry it), this is called the paternal line, as for the maternal line, that can be traced through the mtDNA (Mitochondrial DNA), Mitochondria are cell inclusions of which there are about 1000 per cell, they are mini power packs with their own DNA separate from the nuclear (autosomes and sex chromosomes) DNA, this is passed down from mothers to daughters, the sons can also receive it from their mother and carry it but they cannot pass it down, so this is what we call the maternal line that can trace us back to our maternal ancestor in Africa over 150,000 years ago. Now that we have all the basic information, we know that Autosomal DNA tests all your sides and determines what population you relate to today, but the down side is it cannot go back very far in human history, while the Paternal/Maternal lines (Y-DNA/mtDNA) take us back over 50,000 years ago and all the way back to our roots in Africa which helps with the migration path, but the downside is you're only tracking one line (Two lines actually since one is paternal and the other is maternal). The Dodecad site uses Autosomal DNA in the analysis, so as you can see you have percentages of what these populations carry, the person who runs this site also accepts samples from people who have done their DNA tests, I submitted my sample to him for example so I'm in the study, if you look at this spreadsheet, my ID is DOD037: https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0ArAJcY18g2GadG0zRlpFTjVnemJjU0d2MUtJSkMzNGc&hl=en&authkey=CP-9p_wC#gid=0 So as you can see he built a very big nice database of all these people that have submitted their data and all these results correspond very well to their backgrounds assuming they're not of mixed ancestry. As for the deep ancestry, there are things called haplogroups, these are basically mutations that happen as time passes, the earliest ancestor is considered the Y-Chromosonal Adam (Not the religious Adam), he's estimated to have lived around 80,000 years ago in East Africa and everyone on Earth today comes from his line, to make things more clear he was not the only man during his time, but for whatever reason his line is the only one that survived, so no matter what we look like or whatever shape or form we come in, we're all one huge family that come from this man, as his descendants kept on growing they kept passing his Y-DNA lineage down, in very super rare occasions there are mutations that happen to the Y-DNA, and once mutation happens, all the descendants of this person carry the same exact mutation, so for example let's assume we have the following: Father (A) Son 1 (A), Son 2 (A), Son 3 (A1) Son 3 developed a mutation as you can see, like his other brothers, he also inherited the (A) from the father, but he also mutated to (A1), therefore all his children will be (A1) like him, but the children of his siblings will be (A) only, do you see what I mean? In other words our Y-DNA has mutated many times and the mutation helps us identify the migration path our paternal line took, the maternal line (mtDNA) is the exact same thing but through the mother of course, read the following links to understand more: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-chromosomal_Adam http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitochondrial_Eve So if we want to be relevant to the topic, the Gulf and Bedouin Arabs mostly carry haplogroup J1c3d, if we trace this back to Africa, this is how many mutations happened: J1c3d (In Levant or Anatolia 5000 years ago) J1c3 (In Eastern Anatolia 5000 to 10,000 years ago) J1c (In Eastern Anatolia 10,000 years ago) J1 (In Eastern Anatolia 10,000 to 20,000 years ago) J (In Near East 20,000 to 30,000 years ago) IJ (In Near East 30,000 to 40,000 years ago) IJK (In Near East 40,000 to 50,000 years ago) F (In Near East 50,000 to 60,000 years ago) CF (In Near East 60,000 to 70,000 years ago) CT (In Eastern Africa 70,000 to 80,000 years ago) BT (In Eastern Africa 80,000 years ago) Adam (In Africa 80,000+ years ago) The years are just example estimates on educational timelines, so based on that we estimate that the Arab men in Arabia mostly come from a group that lived in the Levant area around 5000 years ago, this specific lineage is also very common in Jews, that means that the Jews and Arabs that carry this lineage (J1c3d) share an ancestor (The man that developed this mutation in the Levant area 5000 years ago). I know this might be a bit complicated now, but as you keep reading more on this stuff you'll get the hang of it, it's not rocket science that's for sure, and I hope MediaWarLord learns a thing or two here |
Posted By: Centrix Vigilis
Date Posted: 05-Apr-2011 at 04:58
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Very good explanation for a layman's use and as you say potential further research; and I am that in matters of DNA....a layman.
Thanks ------------- "Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence" S. T. Friedman Pilger's law: 'If it's been officially denied, then it's probably true' |
Posted By: medenaywe
Date Posted: 05-Apr-2011 at 05:10
| welcome to the club of laymen!Yes post above is Sesame street story for most of us! |
Posted By: Rûm
Date Posted: 05-Apr-2011 at 07:05
and again, there is no kurdistan but Turkey Iran and Iraq. if you want to see a place as your homeland go back to zagros caves |
Posted By: Arab
Date Posted: 05-Apr-2011 at 07:17
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And what is your evidence of this, Rûm? |
Posted By: Ince
Date Posted: 05-Apr-2011 at 07:47
Oh! pleaes, you are a typical Turk witht he same views as a racist Turk. Turks have a dislike for Arabs and Armenians with also a hatred for Kurds. So you want to cluster Kurds with the people that you don't like. Give me a break unless you can prove your ludacris claim with some acadamic back up then please keep your lip shut, Kuni Kar. ------------- |
Posted By: Rûm
Date Posted: 05-Apr-2011 at 10:12
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Posted By: MediaWarLord
Date Posted: 05-Apr-2011 at 10:15
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Posted By: MediaWarLord
Date Posted: 05-Apr-2011 at 10:18
I believe 99.99 % of all Turks is mentally ill. They don't know who they're!
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Posted By: Rûm
Date Posted: 05-Apr-2011 at 10:28
also yes, I'm Turkish nationalist! I was born in Turkey and Turkey is my own country. so shut the f**k up! götünüz yiyosa karadenize gelin amına koduklarım |
Posted By: MediaWarLord
Date Posted: 05-Apr-2011 at 10:36
Grow up and some visits to the psychologist don't harm.
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Posted By: Rûm
Date Posted: 05-Apr-2011 at 10:47
your ancestors never had their own state and your cavemen people will never have their own state kurdistan (photoshopistan ) is a dream... dream on little boy, when u grow up you will learn your lesson and forget your dream... |
Posted By: MediaWarLord
Date Posted: 05-Apr-2011 at 10:58
Been there, done that. Next!
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Posted By: Azadi
Date Posted: 05-Apr-2011 at 11:00
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Please guys, maintain your honor and keep it civilized and no bashing/flaming, we all are here to discuss history and not gossip about personal problems we might have :) Please. -------------
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Posted By: MediaWarLord
Date Posted: 05-Apr-2011 at 12:45
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I think I know what @Putty19 is doing. He desperately tries to cluster the Assyrian Hg J1 to Kurdistan too. Because ancient Assyrian roots have been exposed and those ancient Assyrians folks were not indigenous people of Kurdistan.
This topic is about the ancient Jews and the haplogroups Hg J2 and Hg G2 that some of them belong to. He’s trying to avoid a discussion about Hg J2 and Hg G2 origin of the Jews by spamming this subject with his Hg J1 nonsense.
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Posted By: Putty19
Date Posted: 05-Apr-2011 at 16:08
I don't think you know your right leg from your left one, don't worry about what I'm trying to accomplish, if the the words are too much for you to understand then don't bother with the discussion, it's not me who claimed that haplogroup J1 is from Eastern Anatolia, it's scientists who are PHD level: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19826455 - http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19826455 The Assyrians are not indigenous to Kurdistan, they are indigenous to North Mesopotamia, that's the Assyrian homeland. |
Posted By: Baal Melqart
Date Posted: 05-Apr-2011 at 16:51
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Well, technically speaking it's not so easy to differentiate between North Mesopotamia and Kurdistan especially since the region never was officially called Kurdistan. Anyway, thanks for the genetic explanation. I'm a science student so I understand the make-up of genes. But I am still very interested in these 'historical markers' , what they mean and to whom they belonged and where. @Rûm people like you disgust me. As if Turkey was one unified gene, you guys have such a huge mixture of genes I can practically call myself a Turk if I wanted to  Don't try and deny it, since ancient times there were so many migrations from Thracians and Celts into Phrygia and Galatia. Also, let us not forget the Mongol impact and the Greek colonies on the western bank of Turkey. I believe even the Rus and Varangians assimilated into some parts of Turkey. Why should the Kurds not have their land if they have existed as a distinct race since ancient times?! Turkey is so greedy it couldn't even spare them a small piece of land from its 783,562 km2.
------------- Timidi mater non flet |
Posted By: Putty19
Date Posted: 05-Apr-2011 at 17:34
There's actually a differentiation between Kurdistan as a region and North Mesopotamia, it's just that some modern Kurds like to exaggerate on the actual size of this region, in terms of recent history Kurdistan was usually located around the Eastern Anatolia/Zagros area, and prior to that there was no Kurdistan, the area was called Urartu (Indicating that the Kurds are a mix of Caucasian/Iranian tribes). |
Posted By: MediaWarLord
Date Posted: 05-Apr-2011 at 19:38
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You're very funny. And what was the area called before Urartu? Exactly before Urartu it was a Mittani Kingdom, Gutium, Karduniash (Kassite Empire / Neo-Babylon) etc. All those ancient people are part of the modern Kurds nowadays.
I don't know your deffinition of North Mesopotamia. But the capital of Kurdistan is Amed and it is located in North Mesopotamia. This is the place where the ancient Jews are from. Is Amed Assyrian too?
And what was ancient Assyria? Ancient Assyria was not more than 2 or 3 villages around Nineveh. It was not a big empire like some Assyrian resources make us to believe.
I don't care which names were given to Kurdistan in the past, but it was always inhabited by the Kurds. Like now when we refer to Kurdistan, we're talking about North Iraq, West Iran, Southeast Turkey.
When that land was called Urartu, Roman Empire etc. Kurds lived there. I don't know why, but people like to give different names to Kurdistan. Occupiers come and go, they change the name of our country. But Kurds stay faithful to their land and culture!
As long as Kurds live there we're talking about 'the land of the Kurds' or simplified: Kurdistan! |
Posted By: Putty19
Date Posted: 05-Apr-2011 at 19:52
Get it through your thick skull, there was no such thing as Kurdistan before Urartu, Mitanni was Mitanni, not Kurdistan. Assyria was northern Mesopotamia which included modern province of Nineveh and big portions of Dohuk and Arbil in Iraq, stretching across Northeast Syria and portions of Southeast Turkey where the province of Urfa and Mardin are, in fact the last standing Assyrian capital was Harran, and that's located in Southeast Turkey near Urfa. This entire area was dominated by a population that spoke Syriac, not Kurdish, today Arabic and Kurdish are dominating and the Assyrian Christians are being kicked out, so before you talk about occupiers I think you should think a little before posting. Once more, I have nothing against Kurds and I support an independent Kurdistan, but people like you are an embarrassment, once again, I'm done discussing with your racist narrow minded unintellectual brain, good day. |
Posted By: MediaWarLord
Date Posted: 05-Apr-2011 at 20:03
It’s not yet prohibited to believe in your own fake history, but don’t spread lies!
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Posted By: Putty19
Date Posted: 05-Apr-2011 at 20:11
Then maybe you should educate your own Yezidies on what they believe in, because according to them, they come from India http://www.yeziditruth.org/the_yezidis Dude, you've been embarrassing yourself from the moment you started posting, I don't even know why I bother, ok MediaWarLord, the Kurds were the first people to inhabit the promised land of Kurdistan, in fact Kurdistan stretches from India all the way to Spain and the Kurds were the first humans created by God, Adam, Abraham, Noah, Jesus, Moses, Mohammad, were all Kurds and the world owes the Kurds everything, am I missing anything else? LOL, this is such a funny joke, good day. |
Posted By: MediaWarLord
Date Posted: 05-Apr-2011 at 20:14
I'm an Yezidi. Are you going to educate me about my own religion? Ha, that's crazy!
Ancient Assyrians tried to conquer the Kurds (Yezidis) and not the other way around. Everything northwest and northeast of Nineveh is and always was Kurdistan. The Kurds (Yezidis) already were living there before the Assyrians came.
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Posted By: Baal Melqart
Date Posted: 09-Apr-2011 at 16:33
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What the hell do you mean by fake Assyrian, the Neo-Assyrians? Sorry man but I think it would be pushing it to say that Kurds were in norther mesopotamia before the Assyrians.
------------- Timidi mater non flet |
Posted By: Arab
Date Posted: 09-Apr-2011 at 18:52
No! The Kurds were the original inhabitants of all places! They also discovered America and fire, and invented the wheel, along with gunpowder. They were the first on the moon as well. Did I mention they shoot lazer beams from their eyes and can fly?
Heh, sorry Media, sometimes you get a little too chauvinistic with your nationalism. ------------- "Prayer is when you talk to God. Insanity is when you talk to God and he answers back." |
Posted By: MediaWarLord
Date Posted: 10-Apr-2011 at 16:42
But people are not very consistently with their contra argument.
If the modern Kurds are not the same as their ancestors. So are other modern Asians or Europeans not the same as their ancestors.
If Kurds are not the same as their ancestors Hurrians, Mitanni, Kassites and the Medes, so are the modern Assyrians are not the same as the ancient Assyrians. The DNA of the modern Assyrians (Christian Arabs) and other modern (Arabic) Iraqis is almost the same.
Modern Germans are not the same as the ancient Germanic tribes in Europe, or the modern Germans are not the as their NAZI ancestors who killed the Jews.
Or modern Russians aren't the same as their ancestors in the late 19th century who killed Kurds in Transcaucasia.
Or modern fascist Turks aren't the same as their fascist Ottoman ancetors who killed Kurds.
Or modern Italians aren't the same as their Roman ancestors.
Or modern Greeks aren't the same as the ancient Greeks, etc.
That's ridiculous! And when I say that I'm a racist?
People are proud of their history and honor their ancestors, but somehow it's forbidden for Kurds to be proud of their history and honor their ancestors. Why? Don't Kurds have a right to exist and live in their ancient homeland?
Get over it, there're people in the world who have an older and richer history than yours (I don't mean you guys; Baal Melqart and Arab).
Before the ancient Assyrians tried to invade Kurdistan, Northern Mesopotamia was already populated by the Hurrians, Guti, Mitanni, Kassites and other proto-Kurds (, and later the Medes). And I'll honor them (my ancestors) until my death. Period!
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Posted By: MediaWarLord
Date Posted: 10-Apr-2011 at 16:49
Nobody discovered fire. Fire and volcano's existed even before humans.
1. Indians discovered America
2. Elam
3. China
4. USA
5. Assyrians, Armenians, Turks and people from Atlantis.
Ancient Jews were proto-Kurds that lived in Kurdistan!
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Posted By: Putty19
Date Posted: 10-Apr-2011 at 18:50
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Media, you have the stupidest mentality I have ever seen, your parents must have dropped you on your head a few times when you were a kid because everything that you said is absolutely stupid and retarded, you don't know anything about genetics and history so it's better to keep the mouth shut than look stupid, because that's what you look like right now, a pure fool. The crap you say is like equivalent to what a 4 year old would say, I'm glad no one on this site takes you seriously because whoever does take you seriously has something wrong with them, I bet even your own Kurdish kakas probably laugh at your stupid remarks. The fact that you call Assyrians Arab Christians is a sign of pure stupidity, good job, I can't wait to see what other stupid and foolish stuff you're gonna write, I agree with Arab, Kurds must have laser beams shooting from their eyes |
Posted By: MediaWarLord
Date Posted: 10-Apr-2011 at 19:16
| Stop trolling and being childish. I'm still waiting for concrete counter arguments with scientifically evidences. I'm sick of your childish and insulting off topic messages! |
Posted By: Putty19
Date Posted: 10-Apr-2011 at 19:24
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You're waiting for scientific evidences? How about you show me scientific evidence that God was a Kurd  Also it's not my fault that you're getting treated like a child, if you act like one you'll be treated as one, and your remarks resemble what a 4 year old would write. |
Posted By: MediaWarLord
Date Posted: 10-Apr-2011 at 19:45
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Posted By: MediaWarLord
Date Posted: 10-Apr-2011 at 19:52
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Nice Jewish-Kurdish site!
Chvi Barzani: "I am proud to be Kurd and am in honor to be related with Kurdish affairs"
 http://www.israelkurd.com/en/ - http://www.israelkurd.com/en/
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Posted By: MediaWarLord
Date Posted: 10-Apr-2011 at 19:57
Mossads retired general Aliayzar Jeffery speaks to Israel-Kurd magazine.
  http://www.israelkurd.com/en/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=138:israel-kurd&catid=37:interview - http://www.israelkurd.com/en/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=138:israel-kurd&catid=37:interview
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Posted By: Putty19
Date Posted: 10-Apr-2011 at 20:20
So because this says that the Jews have a non-Semitic origin and are
related to Kurds, Turks, and Armenians then that makes them Kurds?
Here's a thought, they also said Turks and Armenians, the Kurds are
either Turks or Armenians then? I guess the saying of Mountains Turks
which is directed toward the Kurds may be true after all  Here's a thought, ever thought of actually looking at human migration prior to the rise of civilizations? Yea, that helps, and next time it would help if you provided an up to date study, not something ancient from 2001. One more thing, it's always a wise idea to take your Kurdish hat and Kurdish sunglasses off before talking about this stuff, because when you talk you trip all over your words which makes it hard for anyone to take you seriously, mind you you have a lot to learn (A LOT), in a nutshell, I will try this one last time with you, if you don't get it then you can continue this funny act by yourself while the rest of us will laugh at you. The Jews are not Kurds and the Kurds are not Jews, just as the Assyrians are not Arabs as you claimed, in fact the Assyrians are closest to the Armenians and Oriental (Iraqi/Iranian) Jews and pretty far from Arabs (Bedouins and Gulf), this whole thing stems out of the geographical location of these populations, Kurds are a mix of Caucasian/Iranian people due to their location in Eastern Anatolia/Zagros, while the Assyrians fit exactly in North Mesopotamia and are a mix of Caucasian/Semitic speakers from the Levant, read the latest West Asian analysis: http://dodecad.blogspot.com/2011/04/structure-in-west-asian-indo-european.html The Assyrians sit in the middle between the Armenians and Syrians/Lebanese (But much closer to the Armenians), meaning they carry mostly a Caucasian mix along with a bit of Semitic Levantine mix (Possibly ancient Amorite and Aramean for most part), this mix also cannot be Arab because the Arab wave brought Islam to the land, the Assyrians are not a Muslim people, and those who converted no longer identify with being Assyrian since they lost the language and culture. On the same analysis, there was one Kurdish person included, basically here were the clusters and its participants:  The Kurd ended up in cluster 2 with the Iranians and Azeri (The Iranians were a mix of Persian/Azeri/Luri), and every single Assyrian sample ended up in cluster 6 with the majority of the Armenians, if they were mostly of Arab origin, they would end up in the same cluster with Syrians/Lebanese, not Armenians. The conclusion for the Assyrians is they are the remnant of the Hurrians who mixed with Semitic migrants, slaves, and invaders (Akkadians, Amorites, Arameans, and Hebrews for most part), while the Kurds were possibly the remnant of Hurrian tribes that lived in Urartu yet mixed with Iranian invaders, and the Armenians were also possibly a mix of Hurrians of Urartu that mixed with West Anatolians such as the Hitties, this scenario explains why Kurds, Assyrians, and Armenians all have potential similar ancestry, but are so different and speak separate languages. |
Posted By: MediaWarLord
Date Posted: 10-Apr-2011 at 20:27
Armenians are of Hurrian (Urartu) origin that mixed with Gypsies. When the ancient Jews left Kurdistan, Hurrians and other proto-Kurds lived there. Period.
Assryians are Semitic like Iraqis (and not Hurrian or whatever), period!!!
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Posted By: Putty19
Date Posted: 10-Apr-2011 at 20:42
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Ok you're right, you continue your funny clown crap by yourself then while the rest of us laugh at you
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Posted By: MediaWarLord
Date Posted: 10-Apr-2011 at 20:46
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Semitic Assyrians have been living in and next to Kurdistan for more than 3000 years ago, of course they mixed a little bit with the Hurrians and other proto-Kurds. Assyrian is a Semitic language that is from the south, like Arabic or even Hebrew. The language arose somewhere in Arabia or maybe even in Southern or Central Iraq. But not in Kurdistan. People of Kurdistan spoke Hurrian and IE languages, like Mitanni.
Iraqi Y-DNA haplogroup distribution. Even Iraqis are mixed with the Hurrians and other proto-Kurds.
http://www.eupedia.com/europe/european_y-dna_haplogroups.shtml - http://www.eupedia.com/europe/european_y-dna_haplogroups.shtml
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Posted By: Putty19
Date Posted: 10-Apr-2011 at 20:51
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Posted By: MediaWarLord
Date Posted: 10-Apr-2011 at 21:35
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You're a TROLL. It's a well known fact that the ancient Assyrians were Semites that spoke a Semitic language!
Are you not tired of spreading lies!?
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Posted By: Baal Melqart
Date Posted: 14-Apr-2011 at 09:18
We all agree that Assyrians are Semites and speak a Semitic language. What we don't agree with is your statement about the language evolving in Arabia which is ridiculous at best. Assyrian was closer to Phoenician/Hebrew so they are Semites of the Levant who also, as Putty said, mixed with eastern peoples like the Akkadians. The Arabic language evolved separately from the south of the peninsula. I also disgaree with your claim that Armenians are a mix of Assyrians and Gypsies. ------------- Timidi mater non flet |