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where black africans savages prior to colonization

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Topic: where black africans savages prior to colonization
Posted By: hunter10
Subject: where black africans savages prior to colonization
Date Posted: 09-Dec-2010 at 12:06

i just recently started using this forum and was worried about the tales people chat of no black civilizations or nations prior to european contact. and i wanted to correct that. i also wanted to say something about the belief that savage blacks captured savage blacks and sold them to whites. i recently asked my great grand dad, who showed me some writings by an african ruler in the oyo empire in western nigeria. apparantly he was worried that the british where selling guns to another black nation the dahomey and that because the oyo empires attempts to replicate the rifles where unsuccessful they needed to trade more with the english. unfortunately gold was not what the english wanted but slaves. in most african society prior to european colonialism. slavery was only used on people who commited grievious criminal acts and prisoners of war. and the slaves could work their way out to freedom, they could also have children who where free and their relatives could buy their freedom. some black nations like the nri kingdom even outlawed slavery and any slave that set foot on their land wes free.

 u see slavery in west africa was seen as being more humane than executing someone for murder as spilling blood was often seen as taboo. and they where many laws concerning the treatment of slaves. but when white people arrived the game changed because of guns. u see guns gave a nation advantages and when whites sold it to a particular black kingdom other kingdoms where afraid they would be dis advantaged and also sought after guns. at first gold and spices and cloth was enough for europeans, but with the discovery of gold and spices in north and south america, slaves where needed to covert these resources. and the only thing blacks had to trade where slaves for guns. so as a result blacks started selling their criminals into slavery thinking the same rules of slavery applied to whites, but we all know now that was different. so the slave raids only started when the kingdoms ran out of criminals and then started raiding other kingdoms and sometimes going to all out war just for slaves to get more guns. why more guns u say what did they need them for. well many people have forgotten that for centuries black africans have been resisting arab muslim invaders who wanted to forcefully enslave and convert them and needed every edge they could get get guns was to sell slaves and thus a vicious circle began. of course they where blacks who sold their own people out simply fo profit, but in what culture or race has such people not existed. i apologise to west african descendants of the slavery diaspora. and now i will list west african civilizations, which black people in america can take pride in.

from what i can tell the nok civilization is west africas oldest as it started in 1000bc and from what i can tell it started up isolated as they where no advanced cultural influences nearby. i still dont understand why when ancient africa is potrayed on tv is always mud huts. i mean the where walled cites roads, written languages , science, universities like in ancient timbuktu. some had flags and constitutions. an some where even democratic. so why are they not mentioned. mind u these links are only from west africa they are many more in central east and southern africa


west african
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mali_Empire - Mali Empire - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nri_kingdom - Kingdom of Nri - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Songhay_Empire - Songhai Empire - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashanti_Empire - Ashanti Empire - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghana_Empire - Ghana Empire - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kanem-Bornu_Empire - Kanem-Bornu Empire - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fulani_Empire - Sokoto Caliphate - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benin_Empire - Benin Empire - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oyo_Empire - Oyo Empire - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Dahomey - Dahomey - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wolof_Empire - Wolof Empire - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nok - Nok culture - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hausa_Kingdoms - Hausa Kingdoms - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mandinka_Empire - Wassoulou Empire - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


central africa

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kongo_Empire - Kingdom of Kongo - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ndongo - Kingdom of Ndongo - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lunda_Empire - Kingdom of Lunda - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Zimbabwe - Kingdom of Zimbabwe - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Mapungubwe - Kingdom of Mapungubwe - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mutapa_Empire - Kingdom of Mutapa - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rozwi_Empire - Rozwi Empire - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

east africa

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Axumite_Kingdom - Aksumite Empire - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Kerma - Kingdom of Kerma - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Kush - Kingdom of Kush - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mero%C3%AB - Meroë - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Makuria - Kingdom of Makuria - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nobadia - Nobatia - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alodia - Alodia - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Land_of_Punt - Land of Punt - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

southern africa

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zulu_Kingdom - Zulu Kingdom - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sakalava - Sakalava - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bantu_expansion - Bantu expansion - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


ps to add egypt was not a black civilization but nubia was. ancient egyptians where a mixture of nubians, and berbers, the only time it could have been described as a black kingdom was the time nubian kings conquered and ruled over it. present day egyptians are a result of arab, turkish, roman, and greek invaders.

my question is why does the media in general still insist on not showing ancient african cities, roads and politics except maybe some tiny villages whenever they want to represent ancient africa




Replies:
Posted By: red clay
Date Posted: 09-Dec-2010 at 13:21
My question is, why didn't you do search of our archives?  If you had you'd find your preaching to the choir.   Big smile

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"Arguing with someone who hates you or your ideas, is like playing chess with a pigeon. No matter what move you make, your opponent will walk all over the board and scramble the pieces".
Unknown.


Posted By: opuslola
Date Posted: 09-Dec-2010 at 15:38
My question is, why did you spell "were" as "where?"

Sometimes an introductory phrase sets one up for some critizism / criticism?

Not to worry, in my haste I done similar things!

But, as regards the "savagery" of the "African slaves" brought from Africa to the Americas, it seems you must first ask the Moslems / Muslims? who procurred them?

In my opinion, the only "savage act" was performed by those that enslaved these peoples! And as well as those who bought them!

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http://www.quotationspage.com/subjects/history/


Posted By: Ince
Date Posted: 10-Dec-2010 at 08:50
I have noticed that Sub-Saharan African history is neglected or overlooked.  Thanks for the links interesting reads.  I saw a documantry on African history on the BBC, it talked about the Zimbabwe and the Nubian kingdoms.  It was called "Lost Kingdoms of Africa" I think it is on Youtube. 

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Posted By: red clay
Date Posted: 10-Dec-2010 at 09:57
It's been estimated that less than 50% of the archeaological sites in Africa are known.  In South America it's about the same.  However remote sensing is starting to have an effect.

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"Arguing with someone who hates you or your ideas, is like playing chess with a pigeon. No matter what move you make, your opponent will walk all over the board and scramble the pieces".
Unknown.


Posted By: Mosquito
Date Posted: 11-Dec-2010 at 09:59
So far I know those black africans were savages. British and other european travellers in Africa reported the extreme cruelty of those people and mass killings which they performed in their kingdoms, especially towards defeated tribes or political enemies of their chieftains. One may say that Africa and Africans didnt change so much since those times. However the white europeans and muslims who were hounting for slaves and trading them were not better in any ways.

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"I am a pure-blooded Polish nobleman, without a single drop of bad blood, certainly not German blood" - Friedrich Nietzsche


Posted By: MillerA
Date Posted: 04-Mar-2011 at 20:47
This can be interpreted 2 ways based on the thread title both being a little offensive. Also, weren't all African's black prior to any foreign invasion? Why say black? As opposed to white Africans?


Posted By: eaglecap
Date Posted: 09-Mar-2011 at 15:43
I would suggest looking up Nubian civilization

or the The Kingdom of Meroe
and that should help answer your question

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Λοιπόν, αδελφοί και οι συμπολίτες και οι στρατιώτες, να θυμάστε αυτό ώστε μνημόσυνο σας, φήμη και ελευθερία σας θα ε


Posted By: opuslola
Date Posted: 11-Mar-2011 at 18:06
A very good response eaglecap! It seems racial elements just cannot remove themselves from the reality?

Racism exists upon all sides of this issue, and it seems, they exist almost everwhere!

It is all very sad!

Regards,

Ron

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http://www.quotationspage.com/subjects/history/


Posted By: eaglecap
Date Posted: 15-Mar-2011 at 17:28
Originally posted by opuslola

A very good response eaglecap! It seems racial elements just cannot remove themselves from the reality?

Racism exists upon all sides of this issue, and it seems, they exist almost everwhere!

It is all very sad!

Regards,

Ron


It is a poor assumption to make and in fact we are all savages. I agree that some cultures are more primitive and savage than others but to assume that all black cultural evolution = savagery is born out of ignorance. The Kingdom of Meroe is a very good example of an advanced black African culture. Even with all the advancements the ancient Greeks made they also left behind numerous acts of savagery.

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Λοιπόν, αδελφοί και οι συμπολίτες και οι στρατιώτες, να θυμάστε αυτό ώστε μνημόσυνο σας, φήμη και ελευθερία σας θα ε


Posted By: opuslola
Date Posted: 15-Mar-2011 at 18:27
Savagery, and mutilation of captives, seems to be a most normal position for a lot of men, who have seen battle!

Je' regret?

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http://www.quotationspage.com/subjects/history/


Posted By: Nick1986
Date Posted: 11-Apr-2011 at 08:11
Not neccessarily. The Ethiopians embraced a very Jewish version of Christianity centuries before Europe. According to legend their kings were descended from Solomon through the Queen of Sheba


Posted By: Galleon
Date Posted: 12-Apr-2011 at 18:13
One may say that Africa and Africans didn't change so much since those times. However the white europeans and muslims who were hounting for slaves and trading them were not better in many ways. Centuries ago, English and Muslim, don't know any culture than their culture. They viewed Africans a rude and etc.


Posted By: Nick1986
Date Posted: 12-Apr-2011 at 18:36
True, although the English weren't the first. The Portuguese were the first to reach subsaharan Africa at the end of the Middle Ages


Posted By: Galleon
Date Posted: 12-Apr-2011 at 18:48
Originally posted by Nick1986

True, although the English weren't the first. The Portuguese were the first to reach subsaharan Africa at the end of the Middle Ages
 I agree to that Nick, the slave trade was a very controversial issue. Many have argued and debated the purpose of the trade. The question raised is why Europeans needed this labor. The answer to this question is very broad and complex. One assumption is that Europeans needed this labor to flourish as nations. There was a vast amount of free land that needed to be tended too.


Posted By: Cryptic
Date Posted: 12-Apr-2011 at 23:24
Originally posted by Galleon

Originally posted by Nick1986

True, although the English weren't the first. The Portuguese were the first to reach subsaharan Africa at the end of the Middle Ages
The question raised is why Europeans needed this labor. The answer to this question is very broad and complex. One assumption is that Europeans needed this labor to flourish as nations. There was a vast amount of free land that needed to be tended too.
I dont think it was a matter of free land that needed tending per se.  Rather, the better transportation infrastructures suddenly made slavery very attractive economically.  Before the transportation infrastructure, slaves were of little use if the products they produced could not be reliably transported to a global market.
 
When transportation got better, slave produced crops could be transported great distances with increasing reliability, sold and the proceeds transported back home.  Brokers also could respond to market conditions relatively quickly and accurately. Meanwhile the lack of mechanization in agriculture ensured that labor intensive crops would  require lots of human effort. 
 
Free labor in one area (even semi-free "contract" workers), could not compete with the lower cost of slave produced goods.  This caused some European land owners who might have been opposed to slavery philosophicaly, to use slaves as a means to compete.    
 
  


Posted By: Felakuti
Date Posted: 18-Sep-2011 at 19:35
Originally posted by Mosquito

So far I know those black africans were savages. British and other european travellers in Africa reported the extreme cruelty of those people and mass killings which they performed in their kingdoms, especially towards defeated tribes or political enemies of their chieftains. One may say that Africa and Africans didnt change so much since those times. However the white europeans and muslims who were hounting for slaves and trading them were not better in any ways.

It's no surprise that ''British and other European travellers'' - meaning colonialist land-grabbers and slave dealers - depicted Africans in that wholly negative light. They had to have an excuse for their looting enterprise and greed-fuelled 'civilizing' missions didn't they?

No different from the demonization and stereotyping of muslims today as a pretext to attack and steal from their rich lands.


Posted By: Nick1986
Date Posted: 18-Sep-2011 at 19:54
Originally posted by Felakuti



Originally posted by Mosquito

So far I know those black africans were savages. British and other european travellers in Africa reported the extreme cruelty of those people and mass killings which they performed in their kingdoms, especially towards defeated tribes or political enemies of their chieftains. One may say that Africa and Africans didnt change so much since those times. However the white europeans and muslims who were hounting for slaves and trading them were not better in any ways.

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It's no surprise that ''British and other European travellers'' - meaning colonialists and slave dealers - depicted Africans in that wholly negative light. They had to have an excuse for their looting enterprise and greed-fuelled 'civilizing' missions didn't they?
No different from the demonization and stereotyping of muslims today as a pretext to attack and steal from their rich lands.

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And the Americans' attempts to dehumanise the Indians during their own shameful little colonial war. Advanced nations often justify genocide by claiming their enemies are barbarians who misuse their land and can't be trusted or reasoned with

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Me Grimlock not nice Dino! Me bash brains!


Posted By: Baal Melqart
Date Posted: 18-Sep-2011 at 20:58
Originally posted by opuslola

Savagery, and mutilation of captives, seems to be a most normal position for a lot of men, who have seen battle!

Je' regret?


It's 'je regrette' actually, no need for an apostrophe either.



The truth of the matter Mosquito is that the savagery which you state to be a fact was reported by the colonial Europeans. I think they were pretty biased to be taken as a reliable account of how Africans behaved. In fact, would one expect these Africans to have been jovial and friendly towards the European settlers and explorers?


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Timidi mater non flet


Posted By: Ekundayo
Date Posted: 20-Apr-2012 at 04:01
I know I'm not helping here by not giving authors and titles but I do have some digital public domain books of early historians and explorers in Yorubaland and other parts of Nigeria who had some pretty intense firsthand looks at how prisoners of war and slaves were treated. There was a human sacrifice to the war deity Ogun and in another slaves were forced to sit at a mock feast of some sorts if I remember correctly and then done away with in some bloody fashion. The slave raiders really weren't white at all at all, they were of various ethnicities and they had a capture kill and burn to the ground policy as they moved through the bush. I know people from royal families whose ancestors (black) were most definitely involved in selling off their own people. This idea of the big bad whitie is distorted and in fact there was a lot more complicity amongst the Africans than alot of people with agendas care to open their minds to. One was able several years ago to Google digital downloads (if they haven't copyrighted and are selling now) of these books. I am also a writer/researcher but unfortunately am not in possession of all of these materials as my fujitsu self destructed. I'll try and get some links and post again here.


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"When you allow man's decisions to touch you, you have given away your God-given power,You have to say:"I don't recognize man as my maker or my keeper."Have faith in God and you will be rewarded."ESU


Posted By: Ekundayo
Date Posted: 21-Apr-2012 at 00:34

YORUBA-SPEAKING PEOPLES

OF THE

SLAVE COAST OF WEST AFRICA

THEIR
RELIGION, MANNERS, CUSTOMS, LAWS., LANGUAGE, ETC.

BY

A. B. ELLIS

1894

...but on very important occasions a human victim is offered. In such a case, after the head has been struck off, the corpse is disembowelled, and the entrails placed in front of the image in a large calabash or wooden dish; after which the body is suspended from a tree, or, if no tree be at hand, from a scaffolding of poles...

There is a noted temple Lo Elegba in a grove of palms near Wuru, a village situated about ten miles to the east of Badagry. The market of Wuru is under his protection, and each vendor throws a few cowries on the ground as a thank-offering. Once a year these cowries are swept up by the priests, and with the sum thus collected a slave is purchased to be sacrificed to the god. A slave is also sacrificed annually, towards the end of July, to Elegba in the town of Ondo, the capital of the state of the same name

This is not graphic like some eyewitness accounts I have read but it does give a clear idea that being a slave was risky at certain times of the year!


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"When you allow man's decisions to touch you, you have given away your God-given power,You have to say:"I don't recognize man as my maker or my keeper."Have faith in God and you will be rewarded."ESU


Posted By: Boma
Date Posted: 20-Sep-2012 at 04:46
I am African and Nigerian like Ekundayo the writer of this piece and I am saying YEAH  Africans  were savages prior to the arrival of Europeans. Lawlessness, disorder, Cannibalism , Fetish , Primitive behaviour  and lack of innovation were the ways of the people .

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Izon_Otu


Posted By: medenaywe
Date Posted: 20-Sep-2012 at 05:04
I disagree with You Boma now!If I do not use I-phone it doesn't means I am savage.We learn a lot about spirituality of ours by "primitive savages" all around the world.SmileRegards.
P.S.
People in Zambezi had had their native schools long before English people came there.Lot of other things also.Spiritual values of their life.Life was more content than today maybe.


Posted By: Ekundayo
Date Posted: 20-Sep-2012 at 09:09
Originally posted by Boma

I am African and Nigerian like Ekundayo the writer of this piece and I am saying YEAH  Africans  were savages prior to the arrival of Europeans. Lawlessness, disorder, Cannibalism , Fetish , Primitive behaviour  and lack of innovation were the ways of the people .


Wait now! I don't recall writing anything saying Africans were savages prior to the arrival of Europeans. I quite disagree on the lawlessness, disorder, lack of innovation etc., and particularly take offense to the use of the word "fetish".
The kingdom of Ife was so far ahead of the Europeans that they were making incredible lost wax casting method bronzes while the painters in Europe were still trying to figure out how to create dimension in their flat paintings! Before the arrival of the Muslim jihads and slave traders, Yoruba culture had it going on! Missionary Samuel Ajayi Crowther did a great disservice to the Yoruba people and culture as a whole when he translated the Bible into Yoruba and equated Esu with Satan, and instead of using the name of Orunmila ( the *savior* of the Yoruba race), he instead threw the Babalawo priest out completely and replaced him with Jesus. The Ifa practice and orisa worship is not fetish. One cannot stop history, destiny and fate, but what one can do is realize that the Yoruba had in place a divination system and ritual practice that served their people since the beginning of time on earth. The whole history of the Yoruba people is committed to memory through oriki and odu chapters of the sacred verses of Ifa. 256 avenues or roads contain all the elements and knowledge necessary to avoid and fix every bad situation of life. A child is divined for shortly after birth, to recognize his shining stars and his pitfalls in life, through divination by a Babalawo the child is able to know his taboos, his strong and weak points and how to maneuver through life more easily. UNESCO saw fit to put the Ifa divination system under the umbrella of the Endangered Intangible Cultural Heritage for protection. How many other cultures can boast of the sum total of roots and religious beliefs and practices committed to memory by priests and priestesses who still serve the orisa and people? Of the 256 recited odus there are countless variations and sub verses, all with their litany of herbal magic, the songs to sing, the food and animal sacrifices to perform, thousands upon thousands of details all set in memory and learned by the priests during their training.  No be small thing o. I am of the belief that a culture, a society of people is only as strong as their roots, and if you can no longer remember what sustained your ancestors, you have lost your way. There is one God, most can all agree on this, but leave each culture to their own, and the biggest disservice to Nigerians has been the invasive preaching of evangelical preachers, an onslaught of almost 200 years of it. Everyone knows these fire and brimstone preachers sneak in the back door of the Babalawo house to get his magic so he can make those miracles on Sunday. The best thing they know how to do is keep that bucket passing through the crowd to chop money. There has to be a balance, and respect. We know there are bad people who do bad things in the bush in the name of *fetish*, but you can't paint the whole country as fetish, especially the good Babalawo and Iyanifa who are faithful to the old ways. Ifa is elastic and changes with the times, you even find odu that speaks the person must follow Islam. Where is the intolerance in that. But most of the fire and brimstone crowd only know how to point finger, raise the voice and even call their own grandparents or parents heathen for still following traditional Yoruba ways. If someone is happy in their faith and it is serving them , that is good. Where is the problem.
Here is a review from the New York Times of a museum show featuring the Yoruba terracotta and metal works.

A head of their time; Rachel Campbell-Johnston is stunned by head sculptures so sophisticated that our ancestors said they couldn't be African.(Features).

 

The Times (London, England) (March 3, 2010): p37. (813 words)

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London Times

 

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COPYRIGHT 2010 The Times

 

Byline: Rachel Campbell- Johnston

 

Kingdom of Ife British Museum, WC1 ****

 

Ahundred years ago, a maverick German adventurer named Captain Leo Frobenius visited the jungles of West Africa. He had heard of the region's wealth, of a marvellous sculpted bronze head and astonishing terracotta figures and, as an anthropological expert crossed with a plundering charlatan, he wanted to take a look for himself.

 

Three weeks spent digging in forest groves around the city of Ife (pronounced "ee-fay") were richly rewarded. He returned to Europe with a bag of cultural swag. Archaeologists were astounded by what he had to reveal. How could such sophisticated objects have come out of the Dark Continent? Many experts deemed it to be impossible.

 

These sculptures were not of African origin, they decided: they were evidence of the lost Atlantis of the Greeks. Incredulous archaeologists, however, were forced to rethink, not least when, in 1938, more treasures were turned up. Workmen found a cache of spectacularly beautiful bronze heads, the first in a series of discoveries that were to overturn prior assumptions about African art, forcing patronising imperialists to reconsider their notions of the "primitive". Wrought with extraordinary skill and astonishingly lifelike, these works expressed a socially complex, aesthetically subtle and technically sophisticated culture. The "Donatellos of Medieval Africa" was how an amazed Illustrated London News described them when in 1948 they came to Britain to be conserved and shown for the first time at the British Museum.

 

The kingdom of Ife, the spiritual heartland of the Yoruba people, flourished from the 12th to the 15th centuries in the lush forests of the lower Niger in West Africa in what is today the southwestern region of Nigeria. Visitors to this show are welcomed by its king - the Ooni of Ife - in the form of a portly copper alloy figure which, dressed in coronation regalia, stands at the entrance to Kingdom of Ife: Sculptures of West Africa.

 

Precious little is known of this culture. Its stories and traditions are essentially passed down orally. But many guesses and assumptions can be made from its artistic legacy, of which some 100 terracotta and metalwork pieces now go on show. Ife, this show suggests, though far smaller than neighbouring kingdoms, came to prominence because it had an iron-working industry. This provided not only weapons but also agricultural tools. With access to the Niger river leading to Timbuctoo and from there to the Saharan trade routes, surplus food could be traded for other commodities. No doubt Ife had constantly to jostle for power, but it also appears to have had strong relationships with neighbouring tribal regions: a recurrent motif of a snake curling from human nostrils is to be found not just on the carvings from Ife, but also those of nearby Owo and Benin.

 

To move through the museum's exhibition, a maze-like construction that winds through the Round Reading Room gallery, is to move closer and closer to the heart of this mysterious culture whose monarchy counts among the longest surviving in the world, whose current ruler still sits in state and whose people still worship in the forest groves from which their ancestral relics were dug up.

 

This is the culture that Kingdom of Ife explores. It was a cosmopolitan society, the exhibition suggests, for its legacy is richly various and its women, judging by the numerous depictions of them, played a strong and valued role. Its metalworkers were superlative craftsman. Its people probably also knew how to make glass - crucibles have been discovered in the forest and figures are elaborately adorned with beads - that would have given the kingdom a powerful trading role.

 

But it is the sculpted heads that will strike the visitor to this show. Spotlit amid the slightly gloomy mazes are visages of such extraordinary individuality that one is pulled up short. They capture a spirit of individual identity that survives the passing centuries, impelling the spectator to ponder the secrets that are only now being unlocked. Many of these secrets were dark and frightening, as terrible sculptures of gagged victims and human-headed clubs (perhaps used for sacrificial killings) suggest. It is the attentiveness of observation that compels. Here is a queen moulded in terracotta, her pouting face beneath her headdress so extraordinarily rendered that her flesh seems almost soft. There an old man, his slack lips and cavedin face so accurately depicted that his breath seems to hover about his parted mouth.

 

Ife is in one sense a highly specialised area of study. Here is a small and as yet mostly unexplained fragment of our shared past. It hardly promises to be widely popular. And yet, in its mysteries lies a profoundly felt apprehension of the mystery that is common to all human life.

 

Kingdom of Ife: Sculptures from West Africa is at the British Museum (020-7323 8838) from tomorrow to June 6

Source Citation

"A head of their time; Rachel Campbell-Johnston is stunned by head sculptures so sophisticated that our ancestors said they couldn't be African." Times [London, England] 3 Mar. 2010: 37. Academic OneFile. Web. 2 Sept. 2010.

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Gale Document Number:CJ220156173





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"When you allow man's decisions to touch you, you have given away your God-given power,You have to say:"I don't recognize man as my maker or my keeper."Have faith in God and you will be rewarded."ESU


Posted By: Boma
Date Posted: 20-Sep-2012 at 10:15
There were actually more kingdoms in West Africa than East Africa. Benin Empire, Oyo Empire, Hausa state , Sokoto Caliphate, ancient Gana, Songhae Empire, Mali Empire, Nupe, Nri are just some of them.

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Izon_Otu


Posted By: Boma
Date Posted: 20-Sep-2012 at 10:28
You see, what you have narrated is actually the Fetish ways of the Ile Ife people of old. Ile Ife was the center of such practices  even worse than how you depicted it. And so it was or still seen as the cradle of the Yoruba people  and till today people still hold on to the superstition of old with the belief of OBATALA who was sent from the sky as the first man that gave birth to the Yoruba people. Fetish of Sango or Shanga  and many other practices  where people are killed unnecessarily for sacrifice and other wise. The whole culture was crude and that is why it was all savagery . Carving and sculpture is still ongoing and trust me without European influence they may never know how to upgrade like they  still have not known even at this time despite all the influence from western civilization.  They probably have been painting and carving for the past  million years before Europeans and Arabs  arrived and are still painting and carving the same way even at this time. The reason why the various clans of Yoruba land have tribal marks is to identity so you may be spared  during conflict and war. It is the reminder of the savage past when people fought  and kill and even annihilate  clans for the survival of the strongest clan. That was pure savagery.

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Izon_Otu


Posted By: Boma
Date Posted: 20-Sep-2012 at 10:33
And how come have you not improved on them. Study the history of  China and see the progression. Civilization is a constant progression and it simply means the ability to develop from state to state. Now if you see gorila in the forest using tools does not mean the gorila was civilized. If the Gorila is able to transform tool to some thing else for better use and upgrade to another state of easy means of survival, then the Gorila is having civilization. Check out the Zimbabweans and tell me if they have improved from the days you are talking about . It simply means without the Europeans they may never move any step  to any advanced level..

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Izon_Otu


Posted By: Ekundayo
Date Posted: 20-Sep-2012 at 12:20
Originally posted by Boma

You see, what you have narrated is actually the Fetish ways of the Ile Ife people of old. Ile Ife was the center of such practices  even worse than how you depicted it. And so it was or still seen as the cradle of the Yoruba people  and till today people still hold on to the superstition of old with the belief of OBATALA who was sent from the sky as the first man that gave birth to the Yoruba people. Fetish of Sango or Shanga  and many other practices  where people are killed unnecessarily for sacrifice and other wise. The whole culture was crude and that is why it was all savagery . Carving and sculpture is still ongoing and trust me without European influence they may never know how to upgrade like they  still have not known even at this time despite all the influence from western civilization.  They probably have been painting and carving for the past  million years before Europeans and Arabs  arrived and are still painting and carving the same way even at this time. The reason why the various clans of Yoruba land have tribal marks is to identity so you may be spared  during conflict and war. It is the reminder of the savage past when people fought  and kill and even annihilate  clans for the survival of the strongest clan. That was pure savagery.


 What are you talking about man? You will still find the people of Ife worshiping and in fact all over Yoruba land. It was not Obatala in the ife creation myth, it was Odua who came first. Your use of the word fetish is repugnant. Lagos Oyo and Ondo have some of the largest shrines to Esu at this present time. As we speak there are oracles of the masquerade egungun speaking to the people in the streets who come for help, prayer and blessings.
You are mistaken in your history of carving and sculpture. The Yoruba were working in metal of such intricacy hundreds of years before Europeans even dreamed of it. The facts are out there if you choose to look for them. There are accounts of cities in Benin where the roofs are covered in brass or copper, gleaming in the sun, the Portuguese spoke of how the streets were cleaner than theirs back home, marveled at the garbage removal system and the way the streets were laid out. I could go on and on but it seems you have swallowed the colonialist mentality and it has firmly taken root. There is nothing wrong with change as long as it does not wipe out what keeps a people and culture united  and unique. Not trying to attack you personally, but maybe you are one of the Western educated who long ago stopped wearing traditional clothes either by choice or because raised in a strict Christian family who shunned everything that tied them to their ancestral roots. The Christian preachers have done an excellent job of brainwashing their flock in order to better fleece them while the British and other colonialist masters did their best to exploit and enslave both the Africans and the African continent. Not everything was bad that they did: roads, railways, houses, but we all know they were busy ransacking anything of value while making the true owners of the land feel as third class citizens. The trodding down and extinction of ancient rituals, cultures and religious practices is one of the most reprehensible of all forms of cultural genocide, easily achieved by constant preaching against all things "heathen" giving rise to shame and an inferiority complex, which in turn makes one look up to all things Western and deemed "civilized". The biggest tragedy of today is to see young people trading their traditional clothes for the jeans and Western street clothes, looking up to American rap artists or British, and discarding everything possible that links them to their heritage. Most people cannot even speak their native tongue anymore, This is what happens when the colonial masters prohibit the speaking of anything but english in their schools. This is how they enslave the masses. Take away the ase the power of your native tongue and take away your religious beliefs and replace them with theirs. I pity the people who cannot recite their family oriki.


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"When you allow man's decisions to touch you, you have given away your God-given power,You have to say:"I don't recognize man as my maker or my keeper."Have faith in God and you will be rewarded."ESU


Posted By: Boma
Date Posted: 20-Sep-2012 at 14:58

 What are you talking about man? You will still find the people of Ife worshiping and in fact all over Yoruba land. It was not Obatala in the ife creation myth, it was Odua who came first. Your use of the word fetish is repugnant. Lagos Oyo and Ondo have some of the largest shrines to Esu at this present time. As we speak there are oracles of the masquerade egungun speaking to the people in the streets who come for help, prayer and blessings.
You are mistaken in your history of carving and sculpture. The Yoruba were working in metal of such intricacy hundreds of years before Europeans even dreamed of it. The facts are out there if you choose to look for them. There are accounts of cities in Benin where the roofs are covered in brass or copper, gleaming in the sun, the Portuguese spoke of how the streets were cleaner than theirs back home, marveled at the garbage removal system and the way the streets were laid out. I could go on and on but it seems you have swallowed the colonialist mentality and it has firmly taken root. There is nothing wrong with change as long as it does not wipe out what keeps a people and culture united  and unique. Not trying to attack you personally, but maybe you are one of the Western educated who long ago stopped wearing traditional clothes either by choice or because raised in a strict Christian family who shunned everything that tied them to their ancestral roots. The Christian preachers have done an excellent job of brainwashing their flock in order to better fleece them while the British and other colonialist masters did their best to exploit and enslave both the Africans and the African continent. Not everything was bad that they did: roads, railways, houses, but we all know they were busy ransacking anything of value while making the true owners of the land feel as third class citizens. The trodding down and extinction of ancient rituals, cultures and religious practices is one of the most reprehensible of all forms of cultural genocide, easily achieved by constant preaching against all things "heathen" giving rise to shame and an inferiority complex, which in turn makes one look up to all things Western and deemed "civilized". The biggest tragedy of today is to see young people trading their traditional clothes for the jeans and Western street clothes, looking up to American rap artists or British, and discarding everything possible that links them to their heritage. Most people cannot even speak their native tongue anymore, This is what happens when the colonial masters prohibit the speaking of anything but english in their schools. This is how they enslave the masses. Take away the ase the power of your native tongue and take away your religious beliefs and replace them with theirs. I pity the people who cannot recite their family oriki.
[/QUOTE]

Your question was.. Were black Africans savages  prior to Colonization and I said Yes. I never said  the people never had a way of life. What you are narrating here are the historical ways of the people's life which I said was savagery and without the Europeans,  the people may continue to live like that till now. And yes you just confirmed that they still live like that . You know all the sacrifice that followed  those egungun and things you talked about were human sacrifice and of course  you know  all the atrocity that followed  that kind of habit. Benin till today is buried in savagery and not much is changed. Many of the Benin people that ran away from cruelty  migrated to the South EAST and founded new kingdoms which the Benin today do not even know about. Talk about the OSU culture of the Igbos and tell me if that was not savagery. You are Yoruba so you are only trying to forward the Yoruba history and paint it white  and for your information I lived in Lagos and LAGOS was not part of the OYO  empire and so had little or nothing to do with Ile Ife . It was  actually under the Benin empire. The title of the traditional head  of  both BADAGRY and EKO ( the word Eko itself is an Edo word and not Yoruba )  are of Edo tradition ( OBA ) and not Yoruba. And of course you know what it entails to be an Oba in Edo land. It is pure fetish , devilish and inhuman.. Do not even argue that the word OBA is a Yoruba word cos no settlement, village or town in the OYO empire of the ANAGO has the title OBA. Alaafin, Ooni, AWUJALE, Olu and so on but non is OBA. Oba is a borrowed word from Edo . Just like Chief was borrowed from the English by the Ijaws.


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Izon_Otu


Posted By: red clay
Date Posted: 20-Sep-2012 at 15:13
An agrarian or nomadic life is not savagery. 
 
Boma, I think you need to take a couple of deep breaths, and ease up a little. 
 
Also, you are sounding like a white european,  I for one, greatly admire and respect the achievements of the Historic African Civilizations.  Your denigration of them doesn't shine well on you.
 
 


Posted By: Don Quixote
Date Posted: 20-Sep-2012 at 15:16
Originally posted by Ekundayo

[QUOTE=Boma] Not trying to attack you personally, but maybe you are one of the Western educated who long ago stopped wearing traditional clothes either by choice or because raised in a strict Christian family who shunned everything that tied them to their ancestral roots

Ekundayo, this is a personal attack. Please, avoid such and stick to the subject matter. Thank you in advance.
DQ


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Posted By: Boma
Date Posted: 20-Sep-2012 at 15:55
The truth should not always be bitter.And some times the washing of dirty linen out side leads to gains . I am a KALABARI Ijaw  and one aspect of our history that is forbidden to tell is the very grave life style of the past. Covering up  such history and claiming we never had savagery only make us look stupid because  we become confused  and remain lost never knowing where to amend  because we are in denial.  Ancient Yoruba culture was centered on  voodoo  which the Fon Call Vaudun that was spelt voodoo by the French. The worship of Sango ( Shango ), Obatala, Ogun, Oladumare were all Fetish. Oba Tala. was the Benin ruler who invaded Ile Ife. His power and might made the people worship him and deified him when he died. SHANGO was also another Ruler of Ile Ife who during his reign cursed some  one during heavy rain fall and the person died mysteriously as thunder struck . The thunder that struck coincided with the time the person dropped dead and the people thought SHANGO invoked Thunder to kill the person. Shango became a god to the ignorant people and the people continued to worship him as the god of thunder till today.
 
These are  youtube footage of  aspect of ancient Kalabari Ijaw practice 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DMPtUcLBTeM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QsKXlsZJeHQ




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Izon_Otu


Posted By: Ekundayo
Date Posted: 20-Sep-2012 at 16:51


Originally posted by Boma

Your question was.. Were black Africans savages  prior to Colonization and I said Yes. I never said  the people never had a way of life. What you are narrating here are the historical ways of the people's life which I said was savagery and without the Europeans,  the people may continue to live like that till now. And yes you just confirmed that they still live like that . You know all the sacrifice that followed  those egungun and things you talked about were human sacrifice and of course  you know  all the atrocity that followed  that kind of habit. Benin till today is buried in savagery and not much is changed. Many of the Benin people that ran away from cruelty  migrated to the South EAST and founded new kingdoms which the Benin today do not even know about. Talk about the OSU culture of the Igbos and tell me if that was not savagery. You are Yoruba so you are only trying to forward the Yoruba history and paint it white  and for your information I lived in Lagos and LAGOS was not part of the OYO  empire and so had little or nothing to do with Ile Ife . It was  actually under the Benin empire. The title of the traditional head  of  both BADAGRY and EKO ( the word Eko itself is an Edo word and not Yoruba )  are of Edo tradition ( OBA ) and not Yoruba. And of course you know what it entails to be an Oba in Edo land. It is pure fetish , devilish and inhuman.. Do not even argue that the word OBA is a Yoruba word cos no settlement, village or town in the OYO empire of the ANAGO has the title OBA. Alaafin, Ooni, AWUJALE, Olu and so on but non is OBA. Oba is a borrowed word from Edo . Just like Chief was borrowed from the English by the Ijaws.


Boma my friend, I did not start this thread and did not post this question. I added information that might encourage dialogue.I did not say that Lagos is part of Oyo kingdom, but in this day and age we know is Yoruba controlled through and through and as such the practices are common whether is Badagry or the lagoon or the island Ibadan, Osogbo etc. If I were truly someone who did not have an open mind I would never have put the quote of A.B. Ellis which is painting the Yoruba ritual practices in a bad light. It is the past, it happened, but other cultures also made human sacrifice, and I can counter that life in the present Western world is full of dichotomies and conflicts, where the death penalty is given to prisoners of heinous crimes. How can we judge the forefathers who had their system of checks and balances in place, and their use of *criminals* for their own purposes. Slaves captured in war whether aggressor or defender were obviously seen as fair game to sacrifice. At least the death was given over to a spiritual purpose, just as in the bible itself. In the West around 100 years ago people were hung without a trial and even announced in the town squares.  Whole families packed picnic lunches to go watch the execution, Is that not barbaric? I don't care so much about the migration of this and that and I would debate you hotly on Yoruba system of Ifa being based on Voudun and not the other way around, and bring up even the usage of Oba and the Anago term used in brasil as Nago people and where it can be traced back from even there, but my main concern is that we do not throw the baby out with the bath water. Obviously I am an Ifa practitioner, and excuse me if I feel it fair to get my licks in where I can since the tradition has been so villified for centuries and continues to be villified on television and from behind the pulpit.


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"When you allow man's decisions to touch you, you have given away your God-given power,You have to say:"I don't recognize man as my maker or my keeper."Have faith in God and you will be rewarded."ESU


Posted By: Ekundayo
Date Posted: 20-Sep-2012 at 16:54
Originally posted by Don Quixote

Originally posted by Ekundayo

[QUOTE=Boma] Not trying to attack you personally, but maybe you are one of the Western educated who long ago stopped wearing traditional clothes either by choice or because raised in a strict Christian family who shunned everything that tied them to their ancestral roots

Ekundayo, this is a personal attack. Please, avoid such and stick to the subject matter. Thank you in advance.
DQ


 Embarrassed Duly noted Sah, I will refrain from such in the future, however, understand my usage was meant more to illustrate a phenomena going on as we speak all over West Africa and not intended to personally injure Boma's feelings. It is a simple fact this is happening and a quick visit would make it apparent.


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"When you allow man's decisions to touch you, you have given away your God-given power,You have to say:"I don't recognize man as my maker or my keeper."Have faith in God and you will be rewarded."ESU


Posted By: Nick1986
Date Posted: 20-Sep-2012 at 19:58
Every civilisation goes through a nomadic, agrarian and warlike phase, but that doesn't mean they're savages. Even ancient Rome started out as just one of many squabbling city-states

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Me Grimlock not nice Dino! Me bash brains!


Posted By: Boma
Date Posted: 20-Sep-2012 at 22:21

Boma my friend, I did not start this thread and did not post this question. I added information that might encourage dialogue.I did not say that Lagos is part of Oyo kingdom, but in this day and age we know is Yoruba controlled through and through and as such the practices are common whether is Badagry or the lagoon or the island Ibadan, Osogbo etc. If I were truly someone who did not have an open mind I would never have put the quote of A.B. Ellis which is painting the Yoruba ritual practices in a bad light. It is the past, it happened, but other cultures also made human sacrifice, and I can counter that life in the present Western world is full of dichotomies and conflicts, where the death penalty is given to prisoners of heinous crimes. How can we judge the forefathers who had their system of checks and balances in place, and their use of *criminals* for their own purposes. Slaves captured in war whether aggressor or defender were obviously seen as fair game to sacrifice. At least the death was given over to a spiritual purpose, just as in the bible itself. In the West around 100 years ago people were hung without a trial and even announced in the town squares.  Whole families packed picnic lunches to go watch the execution, Is that not barbaric? I don't care so much about the migration of this and that and I would debate you hotly on Yoruba system of Ifa being based on Voudun and not the other way around, and bring up even the usage of Oba and the Anago term used in brasil as Nago people and where it can be traced back from even there, but my main concern is that we do not throw the baby out with the bath water. Obviously I am an Ifa practitioner, and excuse me if I feel it fair to get my licks in where I can since the tradition has been so villified for centuries and continues to be villified on television and from behind the pulpit.
[/QUOTE]


Well said .  You are correct  this time . You see, the question is WERE they savages prior to colonization ? Your comment this time perfectly says YES  . It is also true that other people including Europeans were  savages at some point . But our savagery may never give way if we never had  Europeans and other foreign influence.


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Izon_Otu


Posted By: Ekundayo
Date Posted: 20-Sep-2012 at 23:57
Originally posted by Boma


Well said .  You are correct  this time . You see, the question is WERE they savages prior to colonization ? Your comment this time perfectly says YES  . It is also true that other people including Europeans were  savages at some point . But our savagery may never give way if we never had  Europeans and other foreign influence.


Ermm We are going to have to agree to disagree. You read into my comment what you like. I'm not pointing the finger and calling anyone a savage, not at all.
Ermm

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"When you allow man's decisions to touch you, you have given away your God-given power,You have to say:"I don't recognize man as my maker or my keeper."Have faith in God and you will be rewarded."ESU


Posted By: Nick1986
Date Posted: 22-Sep-2012 at 21:12
This book claims all the monotheistic religions were "stolen" from ancient African beliefs
http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=flGQz26cULgC&lpg=PP1&ots=i3wSCYyNqo&dq=black%20civilisation&pg=PP1#v=onepage&q&f=false - http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=flGQz26cULgC&lpg=PP1&ots=i3wSCYyNqo&dq=black%20civilisation&pg=PP1#v=onepage&q&f=false


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Me Grimlock not nice Dino! Me bash brains!


Posted By: Boma
Date Posted: 23-Sep-2012 at 17:26
Originally posted by Nick1986

This book claims all the monotheistic religions were "stolen" from ancient African beliefs
http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=flGQz26cULgC&lpg=PP1&ots=i3wSCYyNqo&dq=black%20civilisation&pg=PP1#v=onepage&q&f=false - http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=flGQz26cULgC&lpg=PP1&ots=i3wSCYyNqo&dq=black%20civilisation&pg=PP1#v=onepage&q&f=false


Could be true cos even the Israelites  started their religion in Egypt. The Feru ( Pharoah ) stool of ancient Egypt was the direct stool of God. Feru ( Pharoah ) Means great storm. The person who becomes the Pharoah was simply a Representative of God.This theory is can still be seen among some of  the remnants of ancient Egypt who are now in the extreme South of Nigeria called the Ijaws.

http://destee.com/index.php?threads/a-spiritual-discourse-of-the-ijaw-of-nigeria.44218/


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Izon_Otu


Posted By: Nick1986
Date Posted: 23-Sep-2012 at 21:24
Originally posted by Boma

Originally posted by Nick1986

This book claims all the monotheistic religions were "stolen" from ancient African beliefs
http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=flGQz26cULgC&lpg=PP1&ots=i3wSCYyNqo&dq=black%20civilisation&pg=PP1#v=onepage&q&f=false - http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=flGQz26cULgC&lpg=PP1&ots=i3wSCYyNqo&dq=black%20civilisation&pg=PP1#v=onepage&q&f=false


Could be true cos even the Israelites  started their religion in Egypt. The Feru ( Pharoah ) stool of ancient Egypt was the direct stool of God. Feru ( Pharoah ) Means great storm. The person who becomes the Pharoah was simply a Representative of God.This theory is can still be seen among some of  the remnants of ancient Egypt who are now in the extreme South of Nigeria called the Ijaws.

http://destee.com/index.php?threads/a-spiritual-discourse-of-the-ijaw-of-nigeria.44218/

Interesting idea, although the Egyptians worshiped many gods. You should get in touch with Medenaywe as he's got a theory all modern languages evolved from Ancient Egyptian


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Me Grimlock not nice Dino! Me bash brains!


Posted By: lirelou
Date Posted: 27-Sep-2012 at 00:20
Hmm, it's certainly dangerous to presume that all of Black Africa is savage and barbaric, but the still recent war in Sierra Leone, which included incidents of cannibalism among the Kamajors, which were likely less barbaric than the conduct of the RUF troops, hardly gives reason to presume that Africa's reputation for savage behaviour is ill-earned.

Africa is what it is. For anyone interested in a snapshot of that war, Tony Geraghty's Soldiers of Fortune captures it well in Chapter 9, entitled: Sierra Leone 1997-8: A Less Than Ethical Foreign Policy


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Phong trần mài một lưỡi gươm, Những loài giá áo túi cơm sá gì


Posted By: Nick1986
Date Posted: 28-Sep-2012 at 20:18
Africans weren't the only ones who practised cannibalism. In wartime Russia and Germany there were several cases of people surviving on the flesh of the dead. The Japanese ate human flesh from prisoners even when they weren't short of food

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Me Grimlock not nice Dino! Me bash brains!


Posted By: lirelou
Date Posted: 28-Sep-2012 at 23:10
Yes, but those cases are considered in extremis. The African practice arises from a sense of power. I can kill you whenever I want, and I can eat your flesh. Save the PC verbiage for someone else. I had a Zairian officer look me in the eye and tell me that, and he wasn't bluffing.

The difference is that one is 'resorting to' cannibalism, and the other is 'practicing' cannibalism.


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Phong trần mài một lưỡi gươm, Những loài giá áo túi cơm sá gì


Posted By: Nick1986
Date Posted: 29-Sep-2012 at 19:07
The Africans weren't the only ones who believed that eating dead enemies gave you their power. The Indians ate the hearts of defeated foes, and the Aztecs and Maori honored particularly brave enemies by consuming their flesh

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Me Grimlock not nice Dino! Me bash brains!


Posted By: lirelou
Date Posted: 01-Oct-2012 at 16:52
Nick, I did not mean that Africans ate their fellow humans to acquire their power. I said that killing and cannibalism was an exercise in power' I.e., I can do  this to you because I have the power to do so. You might watch the opening scenes of that 1970s movie "The Naked Runner", which is loosely based on the life of Frederick Selous. And, unlike most 'African' adventure  movies, was actually filmed on site. Notice the entire village partaking in the killing, and the 'mudman' being prepped and roasted.




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Phong trần mài một lưỡi gươm, Những loài giá áo túi cơm sá gì


Posted By: Nick1986
Date Posted: 01-Oct-2012 at 19:24
Sounds like my sort of film.Smile I'll do a search for it on youtube

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Me Grimlock not nice Dino! Me bash brains!


Posted By: Boma
Date Posted: 10-Oct-2012 at 10:11
THIS is a recent event in Nigeria. Where 4 innocent university undergraduates between the ages of 19 and 22  were Lynched. stripped naked and Beaten to pulp,  put car Tyre on them ,poured petrol and burnt to death, videoed  and posted online. They were accused of stealing cell phone and a computer Laptop. But it was even a false allegation. Nigeria is where any one could lay false allegation on you and get you killed  by mob like what happened to these kids... Below is the BBC report about it.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-19869492

http://naijagists.com/the-day-the-sun-wept-at-aluu-dedicated-to-4-uniport-students-killed-in-port-harcourt/

Now if such savagery  is still happening today in AFRICA would it not be a worse case prior to the advent of Europeans ?


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Izon_Otu


Posted By: Nick1986
Date Posted: 11-Oct-2012 at 08:18
Originally posted by Boma

THIS is a recent event in Nigeria. Where 4 innocent university undergraduates between the ages of 19 and 22  were Lynched. stripped naked and Beaten to pulp,  put car Tyre on them ,poured petrol and burnt to death, videoed  and posted online. They were accused of stealing cell phone and a computer Laptop. But it was even a false allegation. Nigeria is where any one could lay false allegation on you and get you killed  by mob like what happened to these kids... Below is the BBC report about it.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-19869492

http://naijagists.com/the-day-the-sun-wept-at-aluu-dedicated-to-4-uniport-students-killed-in-port-harcourt/

Now if such savagery  is still happening today in AFRICA would it not be a worse case prior to the advent of Europeans ?

Similar acts of savagery happen in Europe and America where the government is weak. Take last summer's London rioters, or Americans lynching blacks during the 19th century. Everyone (not just Africans) has the potential to do bad things


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Me Grimlock not nice Dino! Me bash brains!


Posted By: Ekundayo
Date Posted: 11-Oct-2012 at 11:42

[/QUOTE]
Similar acts of savagery happen in Europe and America where the government is weak. Take last summer's London rioters, or Americans lynching blacks during the 19th century. Everyone (not just Africans) has the potential to do bad things
[/QUOTE]

Not even 19th century for the U.S.! When was it, late 90's? The poor black guy walking home in Texas who got chained and drug behind the pickup truck with three racist psychos behind the wheel?
http://www.racematters.org/nytarchjb161.htm
They beat then chained and drug him until hit a drainage ditch and his head came off. Sickening, disgusting. In my opinion, savagery is more an example like this, in a modern *civilized* country where people have access to good food, education, employment, police, road police and ambulance services, hospitals that function etc, but yet they still find a way to foul it up and make a mess of other peoples lives by killing, raping, torturing. At least in Nigeria you can almost find excuses for the peoples behavior or at least the root causes of such horrible deeds. What is the excuse in the U.S.? Just pure hatred, evil and racism.



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"When you allow man's decisions to touch you, you have given away your God-given power,You have to say:"I don't recognize man as my maker or my keeper."Have faith in God and you will be rewarded."ESU


Posted By: Boma
Date Posted: 11-Oct-2012 at 15:39
Originally posted by Nick1986

Originally posted by Boma

THIS is a recent event in Nigeria. Where 4 innocent university undergraduates between the ages of 19 and 22  were Lynched. stripped naked and Beaten to pulp,  put car Tyre on them ,poured petrol and burnt to death, videoed  and posted online. They were accused of stealing cell phone and a computer Laptop. But it was even a false allegation. Nigeria is where any one could lay false allegation on you and get you killed  by mob like what happened to these kids... Below is the BBC report about it.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-19869492

http://naijagists.com/the-day-the-sun-wept-at-aluu-dedicated-to-4-uniport-students-killed-in-port-harcourt/

Now if such savagery  is still happening today in AFRICA would it not be a worse case prior to the advent of Europeans ?

Similar acts of savagery happen in Europe and America where the government is weak. Take last summer's London rioters, or Americans lynching blacks during the 19th century. Everyone (not just Africans) has the potential to do bad things


The  question is... WERE AFRICANS  SAVAGES  PRIOR TO COLONIZATION  ?  It was not about other places ... AND  THE ANSWER  IS  YES  They  were SAVAGES. I know of  many AFRICAN clans distinct from the AFRICANS of today  that were  KILLED out  by other invading tribes. Meaning many Tribes of AFRICA  are extinct due to Tribal war  where some tribes  actually hunt for others  for meal  , sacrifice  or just destroyed to take over their territory.


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Izon_Otu


Posted By: lirelou
Date Posted: 11-Oct-2012 at 22:48
Ekundayo, I don't think anyone would argue against the idea that incidents of savagery can be found in all cultures. The thread seems to be about era when savagery was the norm, not the exception. And in Africa, that appears to be the case South of the Sahara prior to the colonial age, though there were ares of exception. It would appear that where there is a rule of law, whether that be en empire or tribal area, barbarism is more restrained. However the Final Solution of the IIIrd Reich in Germany is certainly an example of barbarism being condoned in one of the most civilized nations in Europe under cover of a rule of law.   

The colonial age in Africa ushered in concepts of nationhood and law that many African states have been unable to fulfill, and the post-colonial period has seen a reversion to barbarism in many, but harly all, of those area.

At times I think that Nick is overly politically correct in his attempts to explain away the causes of a pattern of behaviour that is nothing less than savage. Africa is what it is, as as you post demonstrates, it is not some genetic trait, but a darker side of humanity that is more prevalent in some societies that others. As as the IIIrd Reich demonstrated. Having risen above such conduct is no guarantee that a society cannot slip back into it.


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Phong trần mài một lưỡi gươm, Những loài giá áo túi cơm sá gì


Posted By: lirelou
Date Posted: 11-Oct-2012 at 22:54
An example of a cultural norm within an African Army. An acquaintance of mine who was an officer in the Zimbabwean Army absent on a training course abroad explained to me that when he returned to his battalion, he would have to physically beat several of his subordinates to remind them that he could still do so, and therefore had mastery over them. This beating would be in response to a challenge from the subordinate, perhaps in the form of outright subordination, or in an assault or threat of an assault. And that if he did not succeed in beating this challenger, he would lose the respect of those who were his subordinates.

In Western Armies, we have a system of military justice to insulate commanders against such challenges to their authority.


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Phong trần mài một lưỡi gươm, Những loài giá áo túi cơm sá gì


Posted By: Ekundayo
Date Posted: 12-Oct-2012 at 02:56

[/QUOTE]
The  question is... WERE AFRICANS  SAVAGES  PRIOR TO COLONIZATION  ?  It was not about other places ... AND  THE ANSWER  IS  YES  They  were SAVAGES. I know of  many AFRICAN clans distinct from the AFRICANS of today  that were  KILLED out  by other invading tribes. Meaning many Tribes of AFRICA  are extinct due to Tribal war  where some tribes  actually hunt for others  for meal  , sacrifice  or just destroyed to take over their territory.
[/QUOTE]

LOL Dang Dude!  You're starting to make me think you are embodying the very point you are so belaboring.


-------------
"When you allow man's decisions to touch you, you have given away your God-given power,You have to say:"I don't recognize man as my maker or my keeper."Have faith in God and you will be rewarded."ESU


Posted By: Boma
Date Posted: 12-Oct-2012 at 11:28
Originally posted by lirelou

An example of a cultural norm within an African Army. An acquaintance of mine who was an officer in the Zimbabwean Army absent on a training course abroad explained to me that when he returned to his battalion, he would have to physically beat several of his subordinates to remind them that he could still do so, and therefore had mastery over them. This beating would be in response to a challenge from the subordinate, perhaps in the form of outright subordination, or in an assault or threat of an assault. And that if he did not succeed in beating this challenger, he would lose the respect of those who were his subordinates.

In Western Armies, we have a system of military justice to insulate commanders against such challenges to their authority.


Now I do not think that would be correct cos ZIMBABWE  was a British colony and matter of  fact the last of the colonies to gain independence so The British in them is still very fresh. All the common wealth of which ZIMBABWE is one  have the same military formation and discipline  . The army was set up by the British. They have court marshal  and all that and there is no HORSE PLAYING. NO ROOM FOR BULLYING TO GAIN ANY FORM OF RESPECT. THE military of the Anglophone Countries of AFRICA  today are the best disciplined.


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Izon_Otu


Posted By: lirelou
Date Posted: 12-Oct-2012 at 11:53
Boma, in re your: "THE military of the Anglophone Countries of AFRICA  today are the best disciplined."

While that may be true as a generality, it does not necessarily hold true with all of Africa's Anglophone countries. I should have pointed out that that conversaion took place over twenty years ago, which would have been closer to the British experience.  

Are you arguing that today's Zimbabwe has an Armed Forces they can be proud of? Then who is committing the barbarities that Zimbabweans experience when trying to vote the "Old Crocodile" out of office? Even if Party militias, the question arises: What are the Armed Forces doing? And if nothing, why?


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Phong trần mài một lưỡi gươm, Những loài giá áo túi cơm sá gì


Posted By: Mountain Man
Date Posted: 12-Oct-2012 at 18:08
In fact, Africans were not "savages" -their civilizations were quite sophisticated in many ways, but they peaked before the arrival of Europeans and presented a picture of simple people, but the ruins all over Africa say otherwise.

The Great Fortress of Zimbabwe was built long before European savages even thought about building fortresses out of solid stone, and reveals a degree of sophistication not seen again until until the great stone fortresses of Europe and the Crusades.

Irrigation systems in desert lands were highly sophisticated and still exist - and function - to this day.


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Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?


Posted By: Boma
Date Posted: 12-Oct-2012 at 19:32
Originally posted by Mountain Man

In fact, Africans were not "savages" -their civilizations were quite sophisticated in many ways, but they peaked before the arrival of Europeans and presented a picture of simple people, but the ruins all over Africa say otherwise.

The Great Fortress of Zimbabwe was built long before European savages even thought about building fortresses out of solid stone, and reveals a degree of sophistication not seen again until until the great stone fortresses of Europe and the Crusades.

Irrigation systems in desert lands were highly sophisticated and still exist - and function - to this day.


The question is WHY did they have fortress  ? civilization is a progression from savagery  don't forget. So if you think AFRICANS  were not  savages tell me why a people  would want to build fortress to protect  themselves . Of course  even animals  build some kind of fortress  for protection and that is cos  another Animal wants to eat them or  harm them. In fact such fortress is an evidence of the savage  nature of AFRICA past cos they the group that built fortress  did so to protect themselves  from cannibals . The savagery in ZIMBO is  stil there as we  type. You remember what the SHONA  did to innocent Ndebele during their  presidential election ? Europeans in the early days were savages  too just as  Chinese people were.. The simple question here is.. WERE  AFRICANS  SAVAGES  BEFORE  COLONIALISM ? YES  they were .


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Izon_Otu


Posted By: Nick1986
Date Posted: 14-Oct-2012 at 08:45
Originally posted by Mountain Man

In fact, Africans were not "savages" -their civilizations were quite sophisticated in many ways, but they peaked before the arrival of Europeans and presented a picture of simple people, but the ruins all over Africa say otherwise.

The Great Fortress of Zimbabwe was built long before European savages even thought about building fortresses out of solid stone, and reveals a degree of sophistication not seen again until until the great stone fortresses of Europe and the Crusades.

Irrigation systems in desert lands were highly sophisticated and still exist - and function - to this day.


Take the ancient Egyptians, for example. They built magnificent pyramids, temples and cities while Europeans still lived in mud huts and wore animal skins

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Me Grimlock not nice Dino! Me bash brains!


Posted By: Boma
Date Posted: 14-Oct-2012 at 17:57
Originally posted by Nick1986

Originally posted by Mountain Man

In fact, Africans were not "savages" -their civilizations were quite sophisticated in many ways, but they peaked before the arrival of Europeans and presented a picture of simple people, but the ruins all over Africa say otherwise.

The Great Fortress of Zimbabwe was built long before European savages even thought about building fortresses out of solid stone, and reveals a degree of sophistication not seen again until until the great stone fortresses of Europe and the Crusades.

Irrigation systems in desert lands were highly sophisticated and still exist - and function - to this day.


Take the ancient Egyptians, for example. They built magnificent pyramids, temples and cities while Europeans still lived in mud huts and wore animal skins


Uhm !! Ancient Egyptians ? The Ancient Egyptians became cannibals  after their destruction by the ARABS. The few that survived are mostly in Nigeria today with no knowledge of their origin. What happened ? They lost every thing including the civilization their forefathers  started  and became savages .


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Izon_Otu


Posted By: Nick1986
Date Posted: 15-Oct-2012 at 09:49
Every civilisation eventually collapses Boma. Take Britain after the fall of Rome, where few people could read and there was widespread conflict with the Saxon invaders

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Me Grimlock not nice Dino! Me bash brains!


Posted By: Nick1986
Date Posted: 16-Oct-2012 at 10:24
Originally posted by Boma

Originally posted by Nick1986

Originally posted by Mountain Man

In fact, Africans were not "savages" -their civilizations were quite sophisticated in many ways, but they peaked before the arrival of Europeans and presented a picture of simple people, but the ruins all over Africa say otherwise.

The Great Fortress of Zimbabwe was built long before European savages even thought about building fortresses out of solid stone, and reveals a degree of sophistication not seen again until until the great stone fortresses of Europe and the Crusades.

Irrigation systems in desert lands were highly sophisticated and still exist - and function - to this day.


Take the ancient Egyptians, for example. They built magnificent pyramids, temples and cities while Europeans still lived in mud huts and wore animal skins


Uhm !! Ancient Egyptians ? The Ancient Egyptians became cannibals  after their destruction by the ARABS. The few that survived are mostly in Nigeria today with no knowledge of their origin. What happened ? They lost every thing including the civilization their forefathers  started  and became savages .
So you're saying colonisation transformed them from a great civilisation into savages?

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Me Grimlock not nice Dino! Me bash brains!


Posted By: Boma
Date Posted: 18-Oct-2012 at 09:53
Originally posted by Nick1986

Originally posted by Boma

Originally posted by Nick1986

Originally posted by Mountain Man

In fact, Africans were not "savages" -their civilizations were quite sophisticated in many ways, but they peaked before the arrival of Europeans and presented a picture of simple people, but the ruins all over Africa say otherwise.

The Great Fortress of Zimbabwe was built long before European savages even thought about building fortresses out of solid stone, and reveals a degree of sophistication not seen again until until the great stone fortresses of Europe and the Crusades.

Irrigation systems in desert lands were highly sophisticated and still exist - and function - to this day.


Take the ancient Egyptians, for example. They built magnificent pyramids, temples and cities while Europeans still lived in mud huts and wore animal skins


Uhm !! Ancient Egyptians ? The Ancient Egyptians became cannibals  after their destruction by the ARABS. The few that survived are mostly in Nigeria today with no knowledge of their origin. What happened ? They lost every thing including the civilization their forefathers  started  and became savages .
So you're saying colonisation transformed them from a great civilisation into savages?


You know Arabization leads to primitivity because people are limited  to Islamic principles which do not have room for innovation. And so yes the invasion of Egypt and other parts of AFRICA by the ARABS  actually led Africans to become savages. Our civilization is not given chance to progress.


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Izon_Otu


Posted By: Don Quixote
Date Posted: 18-Oct-2012 at 12:23
What do you mean, Arabization made it primitive? What about the Golden Age of Islam, with all the due astromonical, mathematical etc achieviements? What about all the Arabic universities in Timbuctu and the books left there from this time? What about Sufism, one of the great philosophical systems, it is Islamic, and it's not primitive by any standard.
I wouldn't defend a stance than Arabization lead to primitivism anyway.


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Posted By: Mountain Man
Date Posted: 18-Oct-2012 at 13:10

[/QUOTE]
So you're saying colonisation transformed them from a great civilisation into savages?[/QUOTE]

Was I that unclear when I said that the ancient African civilizations had peaked and declined before the Europeans came onto the scene?

As I have mention at least twice before, the early African tribes and cultures were remarkably sophisticated.  The advent of Europeans, if anything, furthered their decline by arbitrarily laying down borders without regard for tribal claims - thus promoting internecine warfare - and by making the African dependent upon the European technology .


-------------
Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?


Posted By: Ekundayo
Date Posted: 18-Oct-2012 at 13:56
Originally posted by Mountain Man


So you're saying colonisation transformed them from a great civilisation into savages?[/QUOTE]

Was I that unclear when I said that the ancient African civilizations had peaked and declined before the Europeans came onto the scene?

As I have mention at least twice before, the early African tribes and cultures were remarkably sophisticated.  The advent of Europeans, if anything, furthered their decline by arbitrarily laying down borders without regard for tribal claims - thus promoting internecine warfare - and by making the African dependent upon the European technology .
[/QUOTE]

I agree with you that certain tribes on the African Continent were remarkably sophisticated but don't agree that all had already peaked and declined before Europeans came onto the scene. The West African coast was still rockin', particularly the Kingdom of Benin, when the very first *white men* threw anchor off the coast. High ranking ambassadors of the kingdom there were first taken back as honored guests to see the sites of Europe. Give me some time and I'll get references.


-------------
"When you allow man's decisions to touch you, you have given away your God-given power,You have to say:"I don't recognize man as my maker or my keeper."Have faith in God and you will be rewarded."ESU


Posted By: Boma
Date Posted: 19-Oct-2012 at 00:37
Originally posted by Ekundayo

Originally posted by Mountain Man


So you're saying colonisation transformed them from a great civilisation into savages?


Was I that unclear when I said that the ancient African civilizations had peaked and declined before the Europeans came onto the scene?

As I have mention at least twice before, the early African tribes and cultures were remarkably sophisticated.  The advent of Europeans, if anything, furthered their decline by arbitrarily laying down borders without regard for tribal claims - thus promoting internecine warfare - and by making the African dependent upon the European technology .
[/QUOTE]

I agree with you that certain tribes on the African Continent were remarkably sophisticated but don't agree that all had already peaked and declined before Europeans came onto the scene. The West African coast was still rockin', particularly the Kingdom of Benin, when the very first *white men* threw anchor off the coast. High ranking ambassadors of the kingdom there were first taken back as honored guests to see the sites of Europe. Give me some time and I'll get references.
[/QUOTE]


Benin kingdom is not by the coast and the first Europeans that reached that part of Africa never met Benin immediately they arrived. Benin people  were naked and wearing no cloth. Benin people  never knew how to make fire.  And so eating raw food was a very primitive life style that could go for savagery. Before then, the Ogiso dynasty has been dethroned and the family chased out while the ones caught were sacrificed to the deity . It was the exiled Ogiso family that founded the present day people of Egbema in Rivers state, Degema also in Rivers state and the rest of the Epie Attisa  Ijaw clan of today were all parts of the Ogisso family and supporters of the Ogisso .. If they were not savages how come, even till these day, The Edo kingdom has not formerly tried to have any form of relationship  with  the Ogissos in diaspora .  Civilized people would see an AFRICAN wearing no shoes and try to make him live  and stay that way by telling him he looks good  while they troop to Africa and entertain themselves  with the primitive nature of the AFRICANS. Don't  continue  to  think Europeans of those days praised  what they saw in Benin kingdom when they met the first Benin people  because it was all flattery and mockery. Europeans were clothed  and even had electricity then while the Benin people  were naked with no knowledge of fire  so imagine  that. Benin only became popular when it was raided and almost destroyed due to the resistance of the Oba to give in. That history is supposed to be erased because the event was an insult. The Oba was forcefully removed and banished  by a Europeans paddled  by Ijaw fisher men who were the  people met  at the  coast.


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Izon_Otu


Posted By: Boma
Date Posted: 19-Oct-2012 at 00:49
Originally posted by Don Quixote

What do you mean, Arabization made it primitive? What about the Golden Age of Islam, with all the due astromonical, mathematical etc achieviements? What about all the Arabic universities in Timbuctu and the books left there from this time? What about Sufism, one of the great philosophical systems, it is Islamic, and it's not primitive by any standard.
I wouldn't defend a stance than Arabization lead to primitivism anyway.


Africans  knew Astronomy before ARABS invaded. At least the Pyramids of Egypt and Pyramids in Sudan are still there to prove. Astronomy has always been part of Africans. In my culture At least the early ways of counting days and seasons  was  by astronomy where the sun, moon and stars were used and still used today in the interior remote places.  Arabic University in Timbuktu only taught Islam and ARAB CULTURE and what are the achievements  ? The University never even taught medicine, shelter, basic way of planting crops.. It only brain washed the people and made them forget their own way of life and waste their time praying 5 times a day to some statue far away in the EAST which many of them do not even know about. That was the worst thing to happen to AFRICA.  It made AFRICANS forget about all the HERBS they used to know for treatment of sicknesses..



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Izon_Otu


Posted By: Centrix Vigilis
Date Posted: 19-Oct-2012 at 01:49
Originally posted by Boma

Originally posted by Nick1986

Originally posted by Mountain Man

In fact, Africans were not "savages" -their civilizations were quite sophisticated in many ways, but they peaked before the arrival of Europeans and presented a picture of simple people, but the ruins all over Africa say otherwise.

The Great Fortress of Zimbabwe was built long before European savages even thought about building fortresses out of solid stone, and reveals a degree of sophistication not seen again until until the great stone fortresses of Europe and the Crusades.

Irrigation systems in desert lands were highly sophisticated and still exist - and function - to this day.


Take the ancient Egyptians, for example. They built magnificent pyramids, temples and cities while Europeans still lived in mud huts and wore animal skins


Uhm !! Ancient Egyptians ? The Ancient Egyptians became cannibals  after their destruction by the ARABS. The few that survived are mostly in Nigeria today with no knowledge of their origin. What happened ? They lost every thing including the civilization their forefathers  started  and became savages .
 
 
Sources on that?


-------------
"Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence"

S. T. Friedman


Pilger's law: 'If it's been officially denied, then it's probably true'



Posted By: Ekundayo
Date Posted: 19-Oct-2012 at 02:34
Wow. All I can say is it seems someone's been smoking crack or something. I think I'll abandon this thread for good, maybe another thread won't be hijacked to rewrite history.

-------------
"When you allow man's decisions to touch you, you have given away your God-given power,You have to say:"I don't recognize man as my maker or my keeper."Have faith in God and you will be rewarded."ESU


Posted By: Don Quixote
Date Posted: 19-Oct-2012 at 08:44
Originally posted by Boma



Africans  knew Astronomy before ARABS invaded. At least the Pyramids of Egypt and Pyramids in Sudan are still there to prove. Astronomy has always been part of Africans. In my culture At least the early ways of counting days and seasons  was  by astronomy where the sun, moon and stars were used and still used today in the interior remote places.  Arabic University in Timbuktu only taught Islam and ARAB CULTURE and what are the achievements  ? The University never even taught medicine, shelter, basic way of planting crops.. It only brain washed the people and made them forget their own way of life and waste their time praying 5 times a day to some statue far away in the EAST which many of them do not even know about. That was the worst thing to happen to AFRICA.  It made AFRICANS forget about all the HERBS they used to know for treatment of sicknesses..


It's a very questionable that Ancient Egypt was an African civilization per se, Egypt was one of the most used migration corridors since like 60 000 BC, the ethnicities there were mixed with Near Eastern, not pure African; so I wouldn't claim it as African per se.

Besides, one achievement doesn't invalidate others. You may not like the Sufies and the university of Timbuctu, but your personal opinion doesn't invalidate it's value. BTW, the Arab medicine was on a very high level, using exactly herbs etc.

And then what is your excuse for the parts of Africa that Arabs never reached? If the Arabs are to blame for North Africa, what about the other parts of Africa, who was to blame there, little green people?

IMHO, this thread isn't a constructive one. One culture has the right to call other cultrures "savage", nor anyone has the excuse to blame other cultures for his own demise.


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Posted By: Boma
Date Posted: 20-Oct-2012 at 01:33
Originally posted by Don Quixote

Originally posted by Boma



Africans  knew Astronomy before ARABS invaded. At least the Pyramids of Egypt and Pyramids in Sudan are still there to prove. Astronomy has always been part of Africans. In my culture At least the early ways of counting days and seasons  was  by astronomy where the sun, moon and stars were used and still used today in the interior remote places.  Arabic University in Timbuktu only taught Islam and ARAB CULTURE and what are the achievements  ? The University never even taught medicine, shelter, basic way of planting crops.. It only brain washed the people and made them forget their own way of life and waste their time praying 5 times a day to some statue far away in the EAST which many of them do not even know about. That was the worst thing to happen to AFRICA.  It made AFRICANS forget about all the HERBS they used to know for treatment of sicknesses..


It's a very questionable that Ancient Egypt was an African civilization per se, Egypt was one of the most used migration corridors since like 60 000 BC, the ethnicities there were mixed with Near Eastern, not pure African; so I wouldn't claim it as African per se.

Besides, one achievement doesn't invalidate others. You may not like the Sufies and the university of Timbuctu, but your personal opinion doesn't invalidate it's value. BTW, the Arab medicine was on a very high level, using exactly herbs etc.

And then what is your excuse for the parts of Africa that Arabs never reached? If the Arabs are to blame for North Africa, what about the other parts of Africa, who was to blame there, little green people?

IMHO, this thread isn't a constructive one. One culture has the right to call other cultrures "savage", nor anyone has the excuse to blame other cultures for his own demise.


What is questionable  about that ? The Land continuity and the proximity of Nubia from ASwani  to Cairo and the Pyramids of Sudan  are clear evidence.. Even the Bible tells how Moses  ran south wards to the Land of Median and lived in the house of Jethro.. Median was Ethiopia..  Original Jews were themselves semites and semites  were exactly like  present day Somalians, Tuaregs or Fulanis. Ancient EGyptians  were SEMITIC . When the ARABS invaded  and destroyed it, the survivors  ran south wards  but were very few. The Continued to move South wards in scattered manner and were absorbed by different tribes.. The Culture   and language of ancient Egyptians is obvious in the language of Southern Nigerian Tribes.  The Pyramids  were not destroyed during the invasion cos the ARABS  never had the equipments fit for that. It was the Umayyad that finally destroyed it.  In the Southern Nigeria tribe of Ijaw many of their words  are pure Egyptian,,,,  Eg..  accord  or agreement in Ijaw   is  Aminini'm   which means I have agreed.. in ancient Egypt it is Amen..  The Title  Pharoah is actually pronounced  Ferou  and Ferou in Ijaw  language  is  great  Storm  or  wind.. And  In Ijaw people with etra   strength  are Hailed as  FEROU.. The  Deity of the Ijaw people  is called  ORU and in fact the Ijaws  are some times  referred to as ORU. ORU is what is spelt as  HORUS but pronounced as  HORU an Egyptian god.  The Sun in Ijaw is called IRUAH or Ruah. Rah or RUAH is said to be the SUN god of ancient Egypt.  Egyptians are actually called KEMET and the Ijaws are called KHEME  OTU. KHEME  actually means spirit being....  This  link has a a bit of this ..  http://destee.com/index.php?threads/a-spiritual-discourse-of-the-ijaw-of-nigeria.44218/


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Izon_Otu


Posted By: Centrix Vigilis
Date Posted: 20-Oct-2012 at 03:32
Originally posted by Centrix Vigilis

Originally posted by Boma

Originally posted by Nick1986

Originally posted by Mountain Man

In fact, Africans were not "savages" -their civilizations were quite sophisticated in many ways, but they peaked before the arrival of Europeans and presented a picture of simple people, but the ruins all over Africa say otherwise.

The Great Fortress of Zimbabwe was built long before European savages even thought about building fortresses out of solid stone, and reveals a degree of sophistication not seen again until until the great stone fortresses of Europe and the Crusades.

Irrigation systems in desert lands were highly sophisticated and still exist - and function - to this day.


Take the ancient Egyptians, for example. They built magnificent pyramids, temples and cities while Europeans still lived in mud huts and wore animal skins


Uhm !! Ancient Egyptians ? The Ancient Egyptians became cannibals  after their destruction by the ARABS. The few that survived are mostly in Nigeria today with no knowledge of their origin. What happened ? They lost every thing including the civilization their forefathers  started  and became savages .
 
 
Sources on that?
 
 
http://destee.com/index.php?threads/a-spiritual-discourse-of-the-ijaw-of-nigeria.44218/ - http://destee.com/index.php?threads/a-spiritual-discourse-of-the-ijaw-of-nigeria.44218/
 
 
This is a source dealing with mythology and spiritual practices and beliefs of the Ijo. And while interesting in and of itself. Not credible enough to sustain the statement I id' above.
 
 
Where are your academic sources based on Egyptology, Semitic Archaeology, Anthropology, Philology and Etymology? Who are your subject matter experts that can substantiate your statement? What noted historian subscribes to that generic identification of Ancient Egyptian survivors as cannibals versus the more commonly recognized view of cultural assimilation?
 
 
Without these to analyze.....your's appears only to be subjective revisonism.


-------------
"Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence"

S. T. Friedman


Pilger's law: 'If it's been officially denied, then it's probably true'



Posted By: Centrix Vigilis
Date Posted: 20-Oct-2012 at 03:45
Originally posted by Ekundayo

Wow. All I can say is it seems someone's been smoking crack or something. I think I'll abandon this thread for good, maybe another thread won't be hijacked to rewrite history.
 
 
I can appreciate your countering viewpoints. And your reluctance and your frustration. But what is not necessary is the inference you make which is rudeness personified even in jest. We do not need that particular verbiage. As to whether you continue on the thread or not is your prerogative. As to hijacking...if you feel that's been done... then notify a Mod or the Admin-owner...PM...as per the CoC... they, not you, will make that determination.
 
As we do not need rudeness... we also do not need confrontational speech...innuendo or unsubstantiated sarcasm.....which are also a CoC violations.
 
I appreciate your passion in the subject and your determination in objective presentation. I am also satisfied you are capable of doing it without that noted above. I encourage you to continue with that understanding.
 
 
CV
Moderator


-------------
"Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence"

S. T. Friedman


Pilger's law: 'If it's been officially denied, then it's probably true'



Posted By: Ekundayo
Date Posted: 20-Oct-2012 at 04:19
Originally posted by Centrix Vigilis

Originally posted by Ekundayo

Wow. All I can say is it seems someone's been smoking crack or something. I think I'll abandon this thread for good, maybe another thread won't be hijacked to rewrite history.
 
 
I can appreciate your countering viewpoints. And your reluctance and your frustration. But what is not necessary is the inference you make which is rudeness personified even in jest. We do not need that particular verbiage. As to whether you continue on the thread or not is your prerogative. As to hijacking...if you feel that's been done... then notify a Mod or the Admin-owner...PM...as per the CoC... they, not you, will make that determination.
 
As we do not need rudeness... we also do not need confrontational speech...innuendo or unsubstantiated sarcasm.....which are also a CoC violations.
 
I appreciate your passion in the subject and your determination in objective presentation. I am also satisfied you are capable of doing it without that noted above. I encourage you to continue with that understanding.
 
 
CV
Moderator


Inference? Just what was this *inference*? Innuendo? Well maybe it would have been better to say *someone has been hitting the nitrous*, *someone's getting too big for his britches*, *someone's sat down to dinner and not brought their fork*?? Yup. I'm just not suited to exchanging with people who refuse to post from or acknowledge academic sources. How about a ban on shouting in caps? That might clean things up a bit. Just way too serious in here and not fun. I'm out.


-------------
"When you allow man's decisions to touch you, you have given away your God-given power,You have to say:"I don't recognize man as my maker or my keeper."Have faith in God and you will be rewarded."ESU


Posted By: Centrix Vigilis
Date Posted: 20-Oct-2012 at 04:34
The inference and innuendo were/are self explanatory and equates to rudeness and confrontational speech.
These type remarks usually degenerate into flame wars among members and I wont allow that. You don't like my appraisal, which was not even a warning, but merely  commentary-advice. Then take it to another Mod or the Admin-owner PM as per the Coc.
 
 
It is my prerogative to give such as a moderator whether you like it or not. Especially when the rhetoric is beyond the pale. And I, as a Moderator, percieved yours as such. Nor am I required to explain my actions as a Moderator; whether that action be comment-warning-suspenion or ban. That also is in the CoC.
 
I did as a courtsey to you. 
 
So goodbye then and good luck. If you reconsider we will be here.
CV
Moderator


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"Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence"

S. T. Friedman


Pilger's law: 'If it's been officially denied, then it's probably true'



Posted By: Boma
Date Posted: 20-Oct-2012 at 08:17
Originally posted by Centrix Vigilis

Originally posted by Centrix Vigilis

Originally posted by Boma

Originally posted by Nick1986

Originally posted by Mountain Man

In fact, Africans were not "savages" -their civilizations were quite sophisticated in many ways, but they peaked before the arrival of Europeans and presented a picture of simple people, but the ruins all over Africa say otherwise.

The Great Fortress of Zimbabwe was built long before European savages even thought about building fortresses out of solid stone, and reveals a degree of sophistication not seen again until until the great stone fortresses of Europe and the Crusades.

Irrigation systems in desert lands were highly sophisticated and still exist - and function - to this day.


Take the ancient Egyptians, for example. They built magnificent pyramids, temples and cities while Europeans still lived in mud huts and wore animal skins


Uhm !! Ancient Egyptians ? The Ancient Egyptians became cannibals  after their destruction by the ARABS. The few that survived are mostly in Nigeria today with no knowledge of their origin. What happened ? They lost every thing including the civilization their forefathers  started  and became savages .
 
 
Sources on that?
 
 
http://destee.com/index.php?threads/a-spiritual-discourse-of-the-ijaw-of-nigeria.44218/ - http://destee.com/index.php?threads/a-spiritual-discourse-of-the-ijaw-of-nigeria.44218/
 
 
This is a source dealing with mythology and spiritual practices and beliefs of the Ijo. And while interesting in and of itself. Not credible enough to sustain the statement I id' above.
 
 
Where are your academic sources based on Egyptology, Semitic Archaeology, Anthropology, Philology and Etymology? Who are your subject matter experts that can substantiate your statement? What noted historian subscribes to that generic identification of Ancient Egyptian survivors as cannibals versus the more commonly recognized view of cultural assimilation?
 
 
Without these to analyze.....your's appears only to be subjective revisonism.

This is one hidden fact out there the entire world is deprived of and it is being dogged out. Soon interest groups would go in to that proper and get all the anthropology, Etymology and things for the entire world to know.  Thank God for the internet and different Fora  where issues  are discussed and most of all Thank God for  All  empires  Forum where hidden  facts  are being revealed for people to know.  You are also free to make your own research on the matter.


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Izon_Otu


Posted By: Boma
Date Posted: 20-Oct-2012 at 08:22
Originally posted by Boma

Originally posted by Centrix Vigilis

Originally posted by Centrix Vigilis

Originally posted by Boma

Originally posted by Nick1986

Originally posted by Mountain Man

In fact, Africans were not "savages" -their civilizations were quite sophisticated in many ways, but they peaked before the arrival of Europeans and presented a picture of simple people, but the ruins all over Africa say otherwise.

The Great Fortress of Zimbabwe was built long before European savages even thought about building fortresses out of solid stone, and reveals a degree of sophistication not seen again until until the great stone fortresses of Europe and the Crusades.

Irrigation systems in desert lands were highly sophisticated and still exist - and function - to this day.


Take the ancient Egyptians, for example. They built magnificent pyramids, temples and cities while Europeans still lived in mud huts and wore animal skins


Uhm !! Ancient Egyptians ? The Ancient Egyptians became cannibals  after their destruction by the ARABS. The few that survived are mostly in Nigeria today with no knowledge of their origin. What happened ? They lost every thing including the civilization their forefathers  started  and became savages .
 
 
Sources on that?
 
 
http://destee.com/index.php?threads/a-spiritual-discourse-of-the-ijaw-of-nigeria.44218/ - http://destee.com/index.php?threads/a-spiritual-discourse-of-the-ijaw-of-nigeria.44218/
 
 
This is a source dealing with mythology and spiritual practices and beliefs of the Ijo. And while interesting in and of itself. Not credible enough to sustain the statement I id' above.
 
 
Where are your academic sources based on Egyptology, Semitic Archaeology, Anthropology, Philology and Etymology? Who are your subject matter experts that can substantiate your statement? What noted historian subscribes to that generic identification of Ancient Egyptian survivors as cannibals versus the more commonly recognized view of cultural assimilation?
 
 
Without these to analyze.....your's appears only to be subjective revisonism.

This is one hidden fact out there the entire world is deprived of and it is being dogged out. Soon interest groups would go in to that proper and get all the anthropology, Etymology and things for the entire world to know.  Thank God for the internet and different Fora  where issues  are discussed and most of all Thank God for  All  empires  Forum where hidden  facts  are being revealed for people to know.  You are also free to make your own research on the matter.


Is it not interesting that the world is eager to know about the ancient Civilization of Egypt and the  mummies  but are not really interested in know where possible  remnants of the Egyptians  would be ?  If this was deep in Europe or else where out side black people's environment like the Indians of AMERIA and things, traces of the people would have been found by now. . Invaders coming from the North of Egypt and the WEST of it would only make people flee down South and where there  are no natural barriers  people would have easy access to the thick AFRICAN forest to mingle with other  Natives. That was what happened. WHILE, The rest of them were wiped out.


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Izon_Otu


Posted By: red clay
Date Posted: 20-Oct-2012 at 09:04
I think some folks need to step back, take a few deep breaths, and do some basic reading.  Absurdity is running wild here.
 
If I come back to this thread and it hasn't calmed down and I still see racist overtones I will shut it down permanently.


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"Arguing with someone who hates you or your ideas, is like playing chess with a pigeon. No matter what move you make, your opponent will walk all over the board and scramble the pieces".
Unknown.


Posted By: Ekundayo
Date Posted: 20-Oct-2012 at 12:41
Originally posted by red clay

I think some folks need to step back, take a few deep breaths, and do some basic reading.  Absurdity is running wild here.
 
If I come back to this thread and it hasn't calmed down and I still see racist overtones I will shut it down permanently.


Hear Hear! I quite agree and think shutting this thread would be a great choice. It has not contributed in a way that would allow anyone from the outside to glean much of factual information. As per the *racist* overtones, don't go looking in my direction, my roots are in Motherland Nigeria...and no, am not a descendant of Egyptian cannibals.


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"When you allow man's decisions to touch you, you have given away your God-given power,You have to say:"I don't recognize man as my maker or my keeper."Have faith in God and you will be rewarded."ESU


Posted By: red clay
Date Posted: 20-Oct-2012 at 13:37
Racist is racist, it goes in any direction.
 
After a discussion with the Mod. staff this thread is closed.
 
 


-------------
"Arguing with someone who hates you or your ideas, is like playing chess with a pigeon. No matter what move you make, your opponent will walk all over the board and scramble the pieces".
Unknown.



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