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were central asians caucasians??

Printed From: History Community ~ All Empires
Category: Regional History or Period History
Forum Name: Steppe Nomads and Central Asia
Forum Discription: Nomads such as the Scythians, Huns, Turks & Mongols, and kingdoms of Central Asia
URL: http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=28686
Printed Date: 27-May-2020 at 11:43
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Topic: were central asians caucasians??
Posted By: balochii
Subject: were central asians caucasians??
Date Posted: 17-Sep-2010 at 12:48
If you look at central asian countries today, countries like Uzbekistan, Kazakhistan, Turkemnistan, and even Tajikistan and parts of Afghanistan, you find that most of the population is oriental/mongol looking. Did the population change its appreance because of the mongol invasion and rule? were central asians more caucasian looking before the mongol army devestaed this area with rapes and loots, i am assuming the mongol soldiers probably made a lot of women pregnant during that time and killed most of the natives or was central asia mongol looking even before that?? does anyone have history behind this?
 
I am always surprised how parts of northern iran, northern afghanistan and northern pakistan still have caucasian looking people like (kalash, Nuristanis) but yet countries to the more north like these central asian states which are closer to Russia have oriental/mongol looking people.



Replies:
Posted By: Cryptic
Date Posted: 17-Sep-2010 at 15:31
I think that Central Asia was largely Caucasoid prior to the Mongols.  
 
Caucasian mummies (with red hair even) have been found in western China. Huns included both Caucasian and Asiatic sub-tribes and the Scythians were Caucasian as well. Even today, Uzbeks have Caucasoid features and the Turkmen are largely Caucasoid.
  


Posted By: Kanas_Krumesis
Date Posted: 17-Sep-2010 at 17:35
We know from Herodotus about Scythians: "...for their part, being a large and numerous nation, is all mightily blue-eyed and ruddy." Histories (iv.21, 108, 109). It is easy to recognaze the hair color and face type of this Scythian mummy, found in Altai mountain, Central Asia.
 
 
 
The area of Central Asia had been devastated long before arrival of the Mongol army, in VІ-VІІ century by Turkic trubes (like Kirghiz, Karakalpaks, Uighurs and others ) which were also Mongoloids. Arabian diplomat and traveller Ibn Fadlan from 10th century wrote that Turkish tribes in Central Asia seriously embarrass trade between Volga Bulgaria and Caliphate of Baghdad with endless attacks over caravans. They were violent and extremely cruel.
 
Pieces of older Caucasian population of Central Asia remain only in isolated mountian areas. Like Pamir in Tadjikistan (on the photographs below), Kafiristan in Afghanistan, Kalasha valley in Hindu Kush...
 
 
 


Posted By: RollingWave
Date Posted: 20-Sep-2010 at 00:06
Originally posted by balochii

If you look at central asian countries today, countries like Uzbekistan, Kazakhistan, Turkemnistan, and even Tajikistan and parts of Afghanistan, you find that most of the population is oriental/mongol looking. Did the population change its appreance because of the mongol invasion and rule? were central asians more caucasian looking before the mongol army devestaed this area with rapes and loots, i am assuming the mongol soldiers probably made a lot of women pregnant during that time and killed most of the natives or was central asia mongol looking even before that?? does anyone have history behind this?
 
I am always surprised how parts of northern iran, northern afghanistan and northern pakistan still have caucasian looking people like (kalash, Nuristanis) but yet countries to the more north like these central asian states which are closer to Russia have oriental/mongol looking people.
 
Really? lets just look at their sitting leaders.
 
Afganistan
definately caucasian
 
Uzbekistan
100% caucasian
 
Kazakhistan
 
mixed features
 
 Turkemnistan,
 
 
mixed, with some pretty pronounced arabic features.
 
 
 
Tajikistan
 
 
mostly caucasian
 
obviously leaders don't completely reflect population, but generally they're a decent representation.
 
 
Only the President of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kyrgyzstan - Kyrgyzstan  have very obvious oriental features


Posted By: TheGreatSimba
Date Posted: 22-Sep-2010 at 14:14
Central Asia was Caucasoid prior to the encroachment of the Mongols and Turkic tribes. Central Asia was inhabited by Iranics for centuries but they were pushed out as nomadic tribes expanded Westward from Siberia and Mongol. With that said, many of the invaded Turkic and Mongolian tribes did intermarry with Central Asians, so today you see both a mix of Caucasoid and Mongoloid Central Asians (and some Slav?).



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Posted By: bai_ulgen
Date Posted: 22-Oct-2010 at 14:23

If by Central Asian (specially when you add "prior to Turks & Mongols"), you mean Iranic and other Indo-European people, then yes, they were Caucasians. But if you mean Turks & Mongols, they were mostly Asiatic looking.  

By the way, majority of Turkmens in Iran and Afghanistan are Asiatic. 



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Posted By: PakistaniShield
Date Posted: 27-Oct-2010 at 16:16
I was going to start a topic on the Caucasians in central Asia as I plan on writing an article on it soon. But i need more details.

I believe Central Asia was also inhabited by  proto-Caucasian as well as IE peoples prior to various Turanian migrations.

I believe the Hunza of Pakistan are possibly a result of pre-historic Caucasian migrations and connected to pre-IE Balkan races, but genetic evidence contradicts this and not enough evidence exists to link the Hunza language burushaski to Caucasian languages.

All those people in the pictures above are Mongoloid/oriental looking except for Karzai.

And yes many populations in Central Asia show IE influence. I once saw a Turkmen lady with Mongol & Caucasian features.

Even the Uyghurs in China and certain pockets of Mongol tribes have light hair/eyes. 


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Posted By: Cryptic
Date Posted: 28-Oct-2010 at 10:36
Originally posted by PakistaniShield

I believe Central Asia was also inhabited by  proto-Caucasian as well as IE peoples prior to various Turanian migrations.
I agree, except for more isolated Kirghizistan.  The indigenous people there might have been asiatic people from western Siberia.  As a side note, the Kyrghz were the last large group to convert fully to Islam from Shamanism.  This might indicate cultural ties with Siberia.


Posted By: bai_ulgen
Date Posted: 28-Oct-2010 at 10:46

Except President Karzay and President Rakhmanov, the rest have typical Central Asian looks: they are primarily Asiatic with some Caucaid features.


To see more, http://my.opera.com/baiulgen/albums/show.dml?id=4954102 - here's a photo album about Turkmens . In every single photo, you will see both Asiatic Turkmens as well as Caucaid Turkmens, because Central Asians are mixed people. 

Right click and "Open Image" in Opera to see in full size.



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Posted By: Cryptic
Date Posted: 28-Oct-2010 at 10:57
Originally posted by bai_ulgen

Except President Karzay and President Rakhmanov, the rest have typical Central Asian looks: they are primarily Asiatic with some Caucaid features.


To see more, http://my.opera.com/baiulgen/albums/show.dml?id=4954102 - here's a photo album about Turkmens . In every single photo, you will see both Asiatic Turkmens as well as Caucaid Turkmens, because Central Asians are mixed people. 

They are mixed today, but the original inhabitants seem to have been caucasoids (with the possible exception of Kyrghzistan.


Posted By: bai_ulgen
Date Posted: 28-Oct-2010 at 10:59

It depends on who you mean by "original inhabitants". If you mean prior to Turks & Mongols, then yes. Old inhabitants of Central Asia were Caucaid. But these original inhabitants were not Turkmens, Kazakhs, ... . 


Turkic people were originally Asiatic. 



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Posted By: TheGreatSimba
Date Posted: 28-Oct-2010 at 13:32
What Caucasoid features exist amongst Turkic peoples in Central Asia are due to mixing with Iranic peoples who inhabited the area before the arrival of the Turkic tribes and to a lesser extent Eastern European peoples due to Russian conquests.

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Posted By: bai_ulgen
Date Posted: 28-Oct-2010 at 13:37
Yes. 

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Posted By: TheGreatSimba
Date Posted: 28-Oct-2010 at 13:43
Which country are you from? What are your features if you dont mind me asking?

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Posted By: bai_ulgen
Date Posted: 28-Oct-2010 at 13:48
I'm not sure if I understood you well. Features? 

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Posted By: TheGreatSimba
Date Posted: 28-Oct-2010 at 14:16
Originally posted by bai_ulgen

I'm not sure if I understood you well. Features? 

I

I assume you're Turkic because of your signature (I could be wrong) and I was wondering that if you yourself were from central asia and whether you were caucasoid, asiatic, or a mix.


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Posted By: opuslola
Date Posted: 28-Oct-2010 at 14:30
TGS, just what are your "features?", if we might ask?

I look amazingly like Paul Newman!

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Posted By: bai_ulgen
Date Posted: 28-Oct-2010 at 14:30

No, it's OK. I'm a Turkmen, with mixed features. Friends say I'm somehow like http://my.opera.com/baiulgen/blog/2010/10/25/about-turkmens - this man  (at the end of the post, in the video)



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Posted By: TheGreatSimba
Date Posted: 28-Oct-2010 at 14:43
What is the perception of Turks from Turkey? And do you know what the perception of Turks from Turkey is of Central Asian Turks?

I'm caucasian. Been mistake for Latino and Italian, although I'm Iranian.


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I use CAPS for emphasis, not yelling. Just don't want to have to click the bold button every time.


Posted By: bai_ulgen
Date Posted: 28-Oct-2010 at 14:51

Oh, then "Salam, haletun chetore?" :)


Well I haven't lived in Turkey, so I can't comment on that. But I can tell you about my own experience, having encountered with lots of Turks in Central Asia: there's a big cultural difference between us. Most of Turkish people working or studying in Central Asia have a hard time socializing with native people.  



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Posted By: opuslola
Date Posted: 28-Oct-2010 at 15:05
I would suppose then that Cyrus and TGS should have a lot in common?

Is that the case?

Where I live, we have a pretty good representation of the world available for inspection! People from the Levant, India, FYROM, Yugoslavia, China, Mexico, Cuba, most of the Islands in the Carib area, Pakistanis, Germans, English, Irish, Koreans, French, Spanish, and a lot of S.E. Asians (Vietnamese) etc.!

Yet, it seems we have very little racial conflicts or religious conflicts! Actually I have heard of no conflicts like mentioned above here since I arrived about 1976!

I guess we are just weird?

Oh, yes, we also have a good deal of African Americans, as well as emigrant Africans living here also! Surprisingly a lot of our African American residents moved here from Chicago, Detroit, New York, Washington, D.C., etc.!

We even have "Slavic" celebrations!

Or maybe we are merely lucky?

Regards,

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Posted By: bai_ulgen
Date Posted: 28-Oct-2010 at 15:12

No, I'm not talking about ideological differences among members of a society. In this case, both Turks and Central Asians are Muslims. What's more, in Central Asia too, there are lots of ethnicities living together peacefully: Turkmens, Kyrigzes, Kazakhs, Uzbeks, Tajiks, Uighurs, Tatars, Russians, Koreans, and a lot more. But the question was not about tolerance. 

Originally posted by TheGreatSimba

And do you know what the perception of Turks from Turkey is of Central Asian Turks?
   



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Posted By: TheGreatSimba
Date Posted: 28-Oct-2010 at 21:01
Originally posted by bai_ulgen

Most of Turkish people working or studying in Central Asia have a hard time socializing with native people.  


Why is that? This is interesting. Are you posting from Turkmenistan or do you now reside in Russia?


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Posted By: bai_ulgen
Date Posted: 29-Oct-2010 at 01:34

No, I reside in Russia.

I'm not sure. Well, probably because of cultural differences? Maybe also because they (Turkish people) care a lot for Islam. You know, Central Asian concept (except Tajikistan and to some extent, Uzbekistan) of Islam is really different form that of Iran, Turkey, or other Islamic countries.

I'm not sure why :)



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Posted By: TheGreatSimba
Date Posted: 29-Oct-2010 at 12:14
Thanks for your answers.




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Posted By: Kanas_Krumesis
Date Posted: 02-Nov-2010 at 17:09

Here`s is how the Turks look like. Those who live in Bulgaria.

 
I think they have Central Asian features in minimal. They don`t have typical Caucassian features. There is rather a Semitic appearance, which is strange. Let us remember that the capital of Seljuq Turks was Baghdad for a long period of time. The Turks settled in Anatolia not directly from Central Asia, but from territory of modern Iraq and Syria.


Posted By: opuslola
Date Posted: 02-Nov-2010 at 17:22
Just what type of work do the Turks provide for Bulgaria? In Germany, for instance, your typical builder of a BMW or a Merc., is probably a Turk!

Regards,

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Posted By: Kanas_Krumesis
Date Posted: 02-Nov-2010 at 17:41
Turks living in Bulgaria since times of Ottoman empire. They are not "gastarbeiters". Turks are really good workers and cheap labor force. Bulgaria does not have factories like Daimler or BMW and Turks are mostly a farmers who produced high quality tobacco, seasonal workers in construction sector and abroad. Many of them are extremely poor.


Posted By: opuslola
Date Posted: 02-Nov-2010 at 20:33
IN other words Kanas K., they are more like the Lation (Mexican) and African American workers in the USA, who provide like services?

Regards,

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Posted By: TheGreatSimba
Date Posted: 02-Nov-2010 at 23:42
Originally posted by Kanas_Krumesis

Turks living in Bulgaria since times of Ottoman empire. They are not "gastarbeiters". Turks are really good workers and cheap labor force. Bulgaria does not have factories like Daimler or BMW and Turks are mostly a farmers who produced high quality tobacco, seasonal workers in construction sector and abroad. Many of them are extremely poor.


Those are Eastern Europeans who were Turkified, they are not Turkic.


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Posted By: Kanas_Krumesis
Date Posted: 03-Nov-2010 at 01:59
Originally posted by TheGreatSimba


Those are Eastern Europeans who were Turkified, they are not Turkic.
 
Eastern Europeans оr Middle Easterners? Turks came to Europe from Asia and their culutre is close to Arab and Persian. They don`t look like any other Eastern European nation. Of course there are Turkified local people due to forced Islamization but in a smaller volume. Many Muslim communities in South-East Europe retain their native language. Like Bosniaks, Albanians in Kosovo, Pomak in Bulgaria. Attempts for their Turkification is a modern phenomenon. In Bulgaria Pomaks are closed society, but there is a trend supported by Ankara for mixing with Turks based on Islamic religion and common Ottoman past.
 
Pomaks
 


Posted By: Cyrus Shahmiri
Date Posted: 04-Nov-2010 at 05:57
Originally posted by Kanas_Krumesis

Here`s is how the Turks look like. Those who live in Bulgaria.

 
I think they have Central Asian features in minimal. They don`t have typical Caucassian features. There is rather a Semitic appearance, which is strange. Let us remember that the capital of Seljuq Turks was Baghdad for a long period of time. The Turks settled in Anatolia not directly from Central Asia, but from territory of modern Iraq and Syria.
 
I don't think to be a big difference between them and Bulgarians:
 
 
I remember last year that I read about the youngest mother in the world in Bulgaria:
 
 
I think Turks of Turkey look more caucasians! Wink


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Posted By: TheGreatSimba
Date Posted: 04-Nov-2010 at 10:10
Turks of Turkey are Turkic speakers of Anatolian, Iranic, Greek, Armenian, Middle Easter, Caucasian descent. Which explains their Caucasoid features.

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Posted By: Kanas_Krumesis
Date Posted: 04-Nov-2010 at 13:16
Dear Cyrus, I believe that your error is due to poor information. I should let you know that there is one ethnic group called http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roma_%28Romani_subgroup%29 - Roma or Gypsy, which is quite widespread in Bulgaria, East Europe and even in Western Europe and Americas, because of their nomadic life style. The original homeland of this group is North India.
 
This is the news about the youngest mother in the world by name Kordeza (on your photograph) who origin from this ethnic group-   http://english.peopledaily.com.cn/90001/90782/90872/6801006.html - http://english.peopledaily.com.cn/90001/90782/90872/6801006.html   where you can read:
 
"...Kordeza met Jeliazko in the playground of her Roma gypsy school in Sliven, Bulgaria, when he rescued her from bullies...
 
...By then Kordeza was five months pregnant and living with her grandmother Dida, 55, because her parents were both working on vineyards in Spain...

...When Jeliazko found out he was going to be a dad he dashed back from Spain, where he had been working on farms..."
 
Today Kordeza and her family living in Spain, so they by your logic could be an excellent example for a Spanish.
 
Your first photograph submit political demonstration of the party in which participate individuals of almost all ethnic groups in Bulgaria. I see there Bulgarian and Gypsy/Turkish faces. My photograph is much more accurate, because it was taken during a rally (in Plovdiv, Bulgaria before last elections in 2009) of Turkish ethnic party in Bulgaria called http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Movement_for_Rights_and_Freedoms - Movement for Rights and Freedoms
 
As you seem to say that my information is incorrect, I will defend it provides images of Turks on similar topics. This is from the protest agaist Pope Benedict XVI visit in Istanbul early this year
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
In fact this people seems Semitic to me and they have very very small percentage Caucasian appearance.
http://english.peopledaily.com.cn/90001/90782/90872/6801006.html -  


Posted By: Cyrus Shahmiri
Date Posted: 04-Nov-2010 at 13:53
Like Bulgaria, different ethnic peoples also live in Turkey, for example in the first pic they look like Baluch, Turkmen and Pakistani people, but I have visited Istanbul, the majority of the people look like Eastern Europeans, not Central Asians.

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Posted By: Kanas_Krumesis
Date Posted: 04-Nov-2010 at 14:24
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

Like Bulgaria, different ethnic peoples also live in Turkey, for example in the first pic they look like Baluch, Turkmen and Pakistani people, but I have visited Istanbul, the majority of the people look like Eastern Europeans, not Central Asians.
 
Have you ever visited Eastern Europe or Bulgaria to make comparison? I can distinguish Turk from Bulgarian on a first sight because I lived among the representatives of both ethnic groups. When I visit Hungary or Romania people hardly differ me and even begin to speak with me on local language, while they easy recognized a Turk form Bulgaria if he is with me. Same to the France and Italy. If there is Caucasian looking people in Istanbul, you must be sure the are Turkizated and come from Muslim communities of Bosnia, Albania, Bulgaria, Greece, Sandjak...  


Posted By: Kanas_Krumesis
Date Posted: 04-Nov-2010 at 14:51
My point is about Semitic appearance of great majority of the Turks form Republic of Turkey. I`m agree they don`t look like typical Central Asian as they claim to be...


Posted By: Cryptic
Date Posted: 04-Nov-2010 at 15:55
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

but I have visited Istanbul, the majority of the people look like Eastern Europeans, not Central Asians.
The population of Instanbul includes descendants of Bosnians, Albanians and other Islamicized Europeans that left south eastern Europe when the Ottoman Empire started to collapse.  Therefore, the physical appereance of people in Instanbul and other parts of Western Turkey maybe different from Turkey as a whole.  Also, during the Ottoman period, concubines and / or slaves were captured from many eastern European countries.  Many of these people were more likely to be brought to the Imperial capital of Instanbul and their genetic traces remain.
 
   


Posted By: PakistaniShield
Date Posted: 05-Nov-2010 at 06:06
they could easily pass for persians too. i could not distinguish

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Posted By: TheGreatSimba
Date Posted: 05-Nov-2010 at 12:03
We have to differentiate between Turkic peoples, and Turkifified peoples (people who now speak a Turkic language but are of different ethnic non-Turkic origins). Once you make these distinctions, this can become a very straight forward discussion.

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Posted By: Kanas_Krumesis
Date Posted: 05-Nov-2010 at 13:07
My opinion is that Turks from Republic of Turkey have Semitic (Turkifified Semitic) origins in their vast majority and too little modern Central Asian (mainly Mongoloid) and Caucasian appearance. Same to the culture. Who can refute me?


Posted By: Cyrus Shahmiri
Date Posted: 05-Nov-2010 at 16:06
Kanas_Krumesis, what do you mean by Semitic? Do you think Syrians, Kurds, Persians and Armenians have Semitic origins too? You have probably seen my pics in this forum, what do you think about me? I'm a Persian, but I think there are also a large number of Syrians, Turks, Kurds and even southern European people who look like me. My cousins live in Italy and they themselves say that Italians think they are originally of Italian descent.
 
This is one of my pics in India:
 


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Posted By: Kanas_Krumesis
Date Posted: 05-Nov-2010 at 22:04
 Cyrus, I don`t want to analyze the appearance of the forum members. It is truth that you look like South Italian or Greek (my personal opinion).
 We also can`t ignore the fact of Arab Conquest of Iran and following colonization, which explain widespread Semitic appearance among modern Iranians. Of course this is not an absolute norm for all Iranians and there are Iranians even with Nordic appearance. This can be explained with Caucasian type of ancient Iranians. Existence of some minimal Caucasian appearance among Turks also can be explain due to Turkization of Eastern Europeans.
 But why Turks look Semitic at all? They pretend to be direct successors of mighty Steppe nation, but obviously they don`t looks like other Central Asian and Turkic nations!? They don`t have similar culture. Among Turks from ex-Ottoman empire Mongoloid appearance is minimal. Yes, they speak Turkic language, but for example Azeri people speak their language since several centuries. They were forced to learn it.
 
 I think that this ordinary Turkish man meets a one to one type of Semitic appearance. Do you agree with me? He is not a typical Italian, I think.
 
 


Posted By: PakistaniShield
Date Posted: 06-Nov-2010 at 01:40
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

Kanas_Krumesis, what do you mean by Semitic? Do you think Syrians, Kurds, Persians and Armenians have Semitic origins too? You have probably seen my pics in this forum, what do you think about me? I'm a Persian, but I think there are also a large number of Syrians, Turks, Kurds and even southern European people who look like me. My cousins live in Italy and they themselves say that Italians think they are originally of Italian descent.


Semitic genetic distribution in the populations of the Caucasus as well as Kurds, Persians and others is well documented. According to some theories I read it was claimed that Kurds & Balochis were Iranized Arabs though haplogroups maps show this to be untrue.


 
This is one of my pics in India:
 


you don't look like the average persian i've seen. you look like you could definitely have some hazara or oghuz turkic admixture in you.

you could even pass for hispanic.


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Posted By: Cyrus Shahmiri
Date Posted: 07-Nov-2010 at 11:12

Kanas_Krumesis, I don't believe in any strong genetic change of Iranian population after the Arab conquest, the fact is that peoples who live in more northern regions look more white than people who live in the southern parts, of course I don't deny the role of genes, I myself had reddish brown hair when I was a child and there are some members of our family who have blue eyes and red hairs, it could be certainly related to mass Indo-European migrations to these regions in the ancient times but we know in modern Turkey, there were also Greeks, Hittites and some other Anatolian peoples and Arabs never conquered Istanbul, so I see no reason that people of Istanbul look like Arabs and other Semitic peoples.


When Cyrus was a child!

Originally posted by PakistaniShield

Semitic genetic distribution in the populations of the Caucasus as well as Kurds, Persians and others is well documented. According to some theories I read it was claimed that Kurds & Balochis were Iranized Arabs though haplogroups maps show this to be untrue.

Therefore that is untrue, as far as I know, other than modern Khuzistan and some southern parts of Iran, Arabs just lived in some parts of Khorasan and there are still some Arab villages in these region, but in other parts of Iran the absolute majority have been always non-Arabs.

Originally posted by PakistaniShield

you don't look like the average persian i've seen. you look like you could definitely have some hazara or oghuz turkic admixture in you.

you could even pass for hispanic.

From Spain to Mongolia, it seems I look like several different peoples!!



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Posted By: bai_ulgen
Date Posted: 07-Nov-2010 at 12:12

Wait a minute Cyrus khan :) "Omidvaram haletun khub bashe" :) Maybe I can jump in here?

1- Cryus doesn't look like an average Iranian. That's right, but there are Iranians like him.

2- This thing, about Semitic genes in some modern Iranian population is a fact and was documented. Appearance-wise too, lots of Iranians, Azerbaijanis, Kurds and Baluches resemble Arabs.

What's more, in Avesta (although its language was not Persian, but Eastern Iranic), it goes to describe that Zarathustra "was from people who had blue eyes and fair hairs... and lived in lands of 9-month winter". This is contradictory to the appearance of Iranians. It's TOO strange to see a blue-eyed or blond person in Iran, although I don't deny there are people with blue eyes in Iran. 

3- I guess this is off-topic :)




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Posted By: Cyrus Shahmiri
Date Posted: 07-Nov-2010 at 14:12

Hi bai_ulgen, can you speak Persian? "Sepasgozaram, shoma chetorid?"

1. PakistaniShield said the same thing, I don't know why you say I don't look like an average Iranian, a Mongol looking Hazara, an Oghuz Turk or even a Hispanic but not a Persian?!

2. It is certainly true that Iranians generally look like Arabs, especially Iraqi, Syrian and Lebanese Arabs, of course if you consider them as Arabs.

3. You are right, but it can be related, if we discuss about Iranian peoples, as one of major inhabitants of the Central Asia.



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Posted By: bai_ulgen
Date Posted: 07-Nov-2010 at 15:19

"Kheyli mamnun, migzare" :)


1- I'm only judging by the photo you shared with us. And by the way, speaking of Oghuz here, one should be more precise: Turks of Turkey or Azeris are completely different from Turkmens when it comes to appearance. The same applies to Hazaras: they are a mixture of Turkic and Mongolian tribes; not all of them are like Mongols.

Sorry to change the topic.

3- Yes. 

 



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Posted By: PakistaniShield
Date Posted: 07-Nov-2010 at 15:51
This seems to be getting way off topic.

But a couple of points I have to make. @Cyrus when I wrote hispanic it means Spanish people from South America who are of various backgrounds.

I would not say you look Mongoloid, but more Caucasian with some Mongoloid admixture. And your pics as a child are also not surprising. Children especially of Caucasian (Caucasian as in skull type) can many times show light skin, hair and other light features at infancy.

I recently saw photographs of myself as an infant and it showed me having pale Mediterranean complexion with dark brown eyes and that's true for many other Pakistani kids I've seen. SOme kids from northern Pakistan also grow red or blond hair in their first few years but with the hot temperatures of Karachi your skin gets darker.

I remember when I was in Sri Lanka my skin turned almost black.

I think the best way to get back to the main topic which is about Caucasian skulled people in Central Asia is to discuss Scythians, Tocharians and other Caucasianoid people in Central Asia before they were killed off/assimilated by migrating Altaic hordes.

The Uyghurs in China are said to be partly of Tocharian and Turko-Mongol descent. Their features show this to be true as well. The same for certain Mongolians having some Scythian roots in them.

I remember seeing pics of blond haired Mongolians.



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http://pakhub.info">


Posted By: PakistaniShield
Date Posted: 07-Nov-2010 at 15:58
Another thing I forgot to mention before getting back to Caucasian Central Asians is that I don't agree with Cyrus on Lebanese, Syrians, Jordanians etc/ being compared to Persians.

I lived in the middle east for up to two years and most of these mentioned people had nordic features. According to what people say is that they are descendants of crusaders who settled there and haplogroup maps show these areas being together with most of western Europe. These peoples by far are much fairer skinned and lighter eyed than Persians.

Ofcourse there are slightly darker ones with more Mediterranean features. Those can be compared more to northern Persians.
And I agree with Cyrus that ethnically they cannot be considered Arab but Arabic speaking.


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http://pakhub.info">


Posted By: opuslola
Date Posted: 07-Nov-2010 at 17:35
Sorry to interrupt a very good conversation, and one that I read daily, but I would just like to ask a question?

Is there any other reason that Arabic or Muslim women are mostly kept covered other than religious reasons? That is, could there have been a long standing desire to keep the women "white?", or at least not let them tan or get darker due to sunlight?

Hope you understand the reason for the question? Could it be a sexual thing?
For example; Could the religious demands have come about to keep the race of the Sultans or Immans wives or concubines secret from the rest of the society?

By the way Cyrus, it seems that you wear Ray-Bans!

Regards,

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http://www.quotationspage.com/subjects/history/


Posted By: Cyrus Shahmiri
Date Posted: 08-Nov-2010 at 07:50

PakistaniShield, I have visited almost all major cities of Syria and Lebanon on the Mediterranean Sea, such as Sur, Sayda, Beirut, Tripoli, Tartus, Ladhiqiyah, ... the majority of peoples of these regions certainly look like Persians and have even darker skins, I never saw any blonde haired or blue eyed Syrian or Lebanese there.

The fact is that there is a big difference between people of southern and northern Iran, I think people who live in Mazandaran province, like in Larijan, look even more white than some Europeans, this pic show Dr. Larijani, the current chairman of Parliament of Iran, Javier Solana and some Germans in Berlin: http://www.consilium.europa.eu/App/NewsRoom/galleryViewer.aspx?command=PIC&pic=8&bid=105&lang=EN&rubrique=1496&dateEvent=28/09/2006&id=370&picid=509338e0-ae94-48ee-9bad-a7fb96aa190a - source

This movie shows this fact: http://onlinefilmhome.dk/Directors_list_action.asp?p_film_id=61 - http://onlinefilmhome.dk/Directors_list_action.asp?p_film_id=61
 
Bashu - The little stranger
BASHU is a fantastically directed and acted dramatic movie about a ten-year-old Iranian boy who lost his family in southern Iran during the war. His village was bombed. He sneaks into the back of a truck to get out of the war area. Traveling north, he ends up in the beautifully green areas of the northern Iran (by the Caspian Sea), where he faces suspicious villagers who distrust him because of his dark face and southern dialect. A young woman villager (Susan Taslimi) takes him in, and the story begins.
 


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Posted By: Kanas_Krumesis
Date Posted: 08-Nov-2010 at 09:43

Ali Ardashir Larijani is a great example of Iranian who doesn`t have Semitic appearance. European face type, blond hair, blue eyes and pale skin. He looks like Russian to me. Exactly, as his name explain, his family origin from North Iran (Mazandaran), from village of Larijan. Cyrus , may be I`am wrong, but as I know North Iran fell last under Arab control and even after that hardly resisted against Arab influence.

 


Posted By: Ince
Date Posted: 08-Nov-2010 at 10:34
The dark appearence of South Iranians is most likely due to the Elamite and Kassite ancestory.  What might be called semetic look might of already been present before the arrival of the Aryans.  

Like for example the Persian singer Arash who was born in Fars.  He looks more like Indians then he does Iranians. 

 http://odimusic.net/download/uploads/posts/2008-03/1206060575_arash1lt2.jpg

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Posted By: Cyrus Shahmiri
Date Posted: 08-Nov-2010 at 12:05
The nearest part of Iran to the Central Asia is Turkmensahra, it means "Plain of Turkmens", and the majority of the people are certainly Turkmens, you can find a large number of pics of the people of this region in this website: http://www.turkmensahra.com/ - http://www.turkmensahra.com/
 
As you see, they mostly look like Turkic peoples, for example:
 
110- "Saffar-Mohammad-e-Mohammadi" a smuggler from the Tekkč tribe
 

183- A young girl from a town dwelling Turkman family. 
 
168- Makhtoum Qoli, the sixth generation descendant of Makhtoum Qoli Faraghi, the much loved Turkman poet, sitting under a portrait of the poet.  Garkaz.  Jargalân. 
 
But some of them are different, like this one:
 
175- Young girls help run the house from early childhood Gozbâshi village.
 
Some pics of a wedding ceremony in this region: http://www.mehrnews.com/fa/NewsDetail.aspx?NewsID=657329 - http://www.mehrnews.com/fa/NewsDetail.aspx?NewsID=657329
 
As you in the first pic, some people really look different than others:
 
 


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Posted By: Kanas_Krumesis
Date Posted: 08-Nov-2010 at 13:17
Originally posted by Ince

The dark appearence of South Iranians is most likely due to the Elamite and Kassite ancestory.  What might be called semetic look might of already been present before the arrival of the Aryans.  

Like for example the Persian singer Arash who was born in Fars.  He looks more like Indians then he does Iranians.  
 
It seems that the most Caucasian looking people in modern Fars region are the nomadic tribes of Qashqai. Today this people speak Turkic language, but I think that thay were Turkicized. Nomadic lifestyle always create closed society with strong traditions about blood purity within tribal group.
 
 
 
 
 
According Herodotus:
 
 "The Persian nation contains a number of tribes [...]: the Pasargadae, Maraphii, and Maspii, upon which all the other tribes are dependent. [...]: Other tribes are the Panthialaei, Derusiaei, Germanii, all of which are attached to the soil, the remainder -the http://www.livius.org/da-dd/dahae/dahae.html - Dai , Mardi, Dropici, http://www.livius.org/saa-san/sagartia/sagartia.html - Sagarti , being nomadic."
 
Even in the zenith of Acheamenid Iran some tribes from ruling elite remained nomadic. Qashqai are masters in production of carpets, something quite typical about ancient Iranic and Scythian tribes.
 
Qashqai carpet


Posted By: Ince
Date Posted: 08-Nov-2010 at 14:06
Originally posted by Kanas_Krumesis

Originally posted by Ince

The dark appearence of South Iranians is most likely due to the Elamite and Kassite ancestory.  What might be called semetic look might of already been present before the arrival of the Aryans.  

Like for example the Persian singer Arash who was born in Fars.  He looks more like Indians then he does Iranians.  
 
It seems that the most Caucasian looking people in modern Fars region are the nomadic tribes of Qashqai. Today this people speak Turkic language, but I think that thay were Turkicized. Nomadic lifestyle always create closed society with strong traditions about blood purity within tribal group.
 
 
 
 
 
According Herodotus:
 
 "The Persian nation contains a number of tribes [...]: the Pasargadae, Maraphii, and Maspii, upon which all the other tribes are dependent. [...]: Other tribes are the Panthialaei, Derusiaei, Germanii, all of which are attached to the soil, the remainder -the http://www.livius.org/da-dd/dahae/dahae.html - - Sagarti , being nomadic."
 
Even in the zenith of Acheamenid Iran some tribes from ruling elite remained nomadic. Qashqai are masters in production of carpets, something quite typical about ancient Iranic and Scythian tribes.
 
Qashqai carpet


I think they were definantly Turkified Persians and other Iranian tribes that got Turkified along the way like the Parthians.  They also seem to dress and have similar culture similar to that of the nomadic Lors.   The real Turks in the North of East of Iran look totally different to the ones in Fars.   I read somewhere can't remember whare that many Persians tribes fled to West iran/Zagros from the Arabs and then the Turk/Mongol invasians and settled among Kurds and Lors and eventually assimilated into them if anyone knows if thats true?.

Here is a wax work of Qashqai tribal people, notice that their clothes are simialr to that of Lors?
http://travels.sfsepehr.com/images/Fars/P6060617P.jpg


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Posted By: bai_ulgen
Date Posted: 08-Nov-2010 at 14:15

"The real Turks in the North of West of Iran look totally different to the ones in Fars."


If you mean Azeris, they are not "real Turks", they are also Turkified.   



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Möňke Taňri-niň Küçü Bile


Posted By: Ince
Date Posted: 08-Nov-2010 at 14:24
Originally posted by bai_ulgen

"The real Turks in the North of West of Iran look totally different to the ones in Fars."


If you mean Azeris, they are not "real Turks", they are also Turkified.   



I mean the ones from Golestan province and Khorasan province.




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Posted By: Ince
Date Posted: 08-Nov-2010 at 14:41
Heres a picture of my grandmother and family from my Village, my Grandmother is the one wearing the head scarf, she was  a Turkmen of the Kizilibash, which was the reason my grandfather married her due to the similar religion of Alevi.  I am Kurd from Malatya,Turkey.  It is believed in my town and sourounding related towns that our ancestors came from Khorasan.

http://oi56.tinypic.com/zyhvg5.jpg


Heres is a picture of my brother when he was a young, he has more asiatic features then I do.
 
 



Heres a picture of me when I was young with my mother and a relative.
http://oi56.tinypic.com/2cz4nrm.jpg
Edited upon request of Ince Red Clay


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Posted By: bai_ulgen
Date Posted: 08-Nov-2010 at 14:44
Northern Khorasan Turks are not Turkic in appearance either. Anyway, Golestan and Khorasan are located in Northeastern part of Iran. 

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Möňke Taňri-niň Küçü Bile


Posted By: Ince
Date Posted: 08-Nov-2010 at 14:46
Originally posted by bai_ulgen

Northern Khorasan Turks are not Turkic in appearance either. Anyway, Golestan and Khorasan are located in Northeastern part of Iran. 


My mistake, I should of typed East instead of West.  Get them confused at times Big smile


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Posted By: Steppe
Date Posted: 25-Nov-2010 at 11:46

.



Posted By: Altar
Date Posted: 12-Dec-2010 at 12:38
"big" differences in culture?  it is hard to undserstand how u think that? even your nick name is being used almost a common name for men...we are using same names and same cultutal processes that we execute...

if you talk about "addapt problems" than it is another discussion of how arabic cultre effected us and how russian culture effected you, that answer is teh same answer to that addapt problem...


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 14-Dec-2010 at 01:17
Originally posted by RollingWave

Originally posted by balochii

If you look at central asian countries today, countries like Uzbekistan, Kazakhistan, Turkemnistan, and even Tajikistan and parts of Afghanistan, you find that most of the population is oriental/mongol looking. Did the population change its appreance because of the mongol invasion and rule? were central asians more caucasian looking before the mongol army devestaed this area with rapes and loots, i am assuming the mongol soldiers probably made a lot of women pregnant during that time and killed most of the natives or was central asia mongol looking even before that?? does anyone have history behind this?
 
I am always surprised how parts of northern iran, northern afghanistan and northern pakistan still have caucasian looking people like (kalash, Nuristanis) but yet countries to the more north like these central asian states which are closer to Russia have oriental/mongol looking people.
 
Really? lets just look at their sitting leaders.
 
Afganistan
definately caucasian
 
Uzbekistan
100% caucasian
 
Kazakhistan
 
mixed features
 
 Turkemnistan,
 
 
mixed, with some pretty pronounced arabic features.
 
 
 
Tajikistan
 
 
mostly caucasian
 
obviously leaders don't completely reflect population, but generally they're a decent representation.
 
 
Only the President of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kyrgyzstan - Kyrgyzstan  have very obvious oriental features
Yeah, but what about the others like China, Philipines, and Papua New Genuie?Ermm


Posted By: Altar
Date Posted: 25-Dec-2010 at 16:03
these people are gypsies from bulgaria you can clearly see.  don't direct people into the way you want. 


Posted By: Kanas_Krumesis
Date Posted: 25-Dec-2010 at 17:07
Originally posted by Altar

these people are gypsies from bulgaria you can clearly see.  don't direct people into the way you want. 
 
No, you and people like you are these who try to falsify notion of the Europeans and other civilized nations about you with lies. It`s not my fault that the Turks actually looks very much like gypsies.
BTW Turks from Republic of Turkey and those who live in Bulgaria looks also like any other people from the Middle East, mainly Arabs.
 
Let the people make their own conclusion about Turkish appearance. This video is made in Sofia this summer. The protest was organized by the followers of pro-Turkish mufti Mustafa Alish Hadji who was removed by the Bulgarian Supreme court from his position as a head of the Islamic religion in Bulgaria, because of his anti-state and Islamist activity. A few weeks later during his visit in Bulgaria the Turkish Foreign Minister Ahmet Davutoğlu raised the question of Hadji`s reinstatement in his previous position. It was rejected.
 
[TUBE]_piRi3hG-1s[/TUBE]
 
[TUBE]kEkRQNuwYHU&feature=related[/TUBE]
 


Posted By: sicilia
Date Posted: 25-Dec-2010 at 21:33

funny you mention this topic because I am currently studying about the central asian turkic speaking countries. since I am not yet an expert on the tukic countries, unfortunately I will not contribute to the subject because I don't feel much of an expert on the matter. I actually want to comment on some other things that I noticed on this thread.  






Posted By: sicilia
Date Posted: 25-Dec-2010 at 21:53
Originally posted by balochii

If you look at central asian countries today, countries like Uzbekistan, Kazakhistan, Turkemnistan, and even Tajikistan and parts of Afghanistan, you find that most of the population is oriental/mongol looking. Did the population change its appreance because of the mongol invasion and rule? were central asians more caucasian looking before the mongol army devestaed this area with rapes and loots, i am assuming the mongol soldiers probably made a lot of women pregnant during that time and killed most of the natives or was central asia mongol looking even before that?? does anyone have history behind this?
 
I am always surprised how parts of northern iran, northern afghanistan and northern pakistan still have caucasian looking people like (kalash, Nuristanis) but yet countries to the more north like these central asian states which are closer to Russia have oriental/mongol looking people.

  


I question what you mean by "caucasian looking people" of Afghanistan, Iran, and Pakistan.

all Iranians and Pakistanis ARE caucasian, I would say only a very small minority of Iranians and Pakistanis have a mongoloid admixture look to them, and even so its quite insignificant .

Afghanis have more mongoloid/caucasian mixed peoples but the majority of Afghanis are caucasian.


Russia is a huge country, not all Russians are caucasian. Many parts of Russia are predominately mongoloid and mixed mongoloid/caucasian.


Iran and Pakistan are way more Caucasian compared to Russia.





Posted By: sicilia
Date Posted: 25-Dec-2010 at 22:27
Originally posted by TheGreatSimba

What is the perception of Turks from Turkey? And do you know what the perception of Turks from Turkey is of Central Asian Turks?

I'm caucasian. Been mistake for Latino and Italian, although I'm Iranian.


Latinos and Italians are the same thing. the Latinos aka Latins was an ancient italic group from italy which included the romans. 

sometimes French, Spanish, Portuguese , Romanians etc. are also referred to as Latinos since they were all part of the roman empire and all "latinized" even though they might not have a strong latin admixture in them, they still all share a latin culture which is basically our romance language group and roman catholic faith.

the correct term for them is actually "nuevo latinos" or the nuevo latino countries.

"latino" are the romans and other ancient italic groups, the name should be reserved for them only.

anyways Italians and Iranians are the same race, we are both caucasians and we look the same.

If I knew how to speak Persian very well and if I went to Iran, they would not know that I am Sicilian. I could easily lie and and say I am from Iran and they would believe me.

Its the same for Iranians that go to Italy, If they can speak Italian good, then all the Italians will think that they are Italian too.



Posted By: sicilia
Date Posted: 25-Dec-2010 at 23:14
Originally posted by Kanas_Krumesis

Here`s is how the Turks look like. Those who live in Bulgaria.

 
I think they have Central Asian features in minimal. They don`t have typical Caucassian features. There is rather a Semitic appearance, which is strange. Let us remember that the capital of Seljuq Turks was Baghdad for a long period of time. The Turks settled in Anatolia not directly from Central Asia, but from territory of modern Iraq and Syria.

They all are caucasian...how do they not have typical "caucasian" features?Confused

These Turkish people look like most caucasians. they would fit right in with the Mediterranean countries and middle eastern countries which are all caucasian.

I'm from sicily and many look the same like Sicilians and other Italians, Maltese, Greeks, Spanish, Corsicans, Sardinia, Portuguese, Iranians, Lebanese, Syrians, Iraqis, Georgians, Armenians, Kurds, Albanians, etc i can keep going lol Big smile

what I'm trying to say is what is "typical caucasian look" most caucasian people look the same and can be confused for one another. 

I am Sicilian but I get confused all the time for other caucasian people like Iranian, Lebanese, Spanish, Moroccan, Greek, Bulgarian etc.

The only caucasian people that are not typical looking caucasians are Nordic/Anglo Saxon people and Indians and some Pakistanis.

nordic/anglo saxon people stand out from other caucasians because they have slightly different facial structure and indians and some pakistanis stand out from other caucasians because they also have a slightly different look compared to other caucasians.  what I'm saying is that most caucasians from the Mediterranean Europe and Africa, middle east, central asia and some parts eastern europe basically look the same and can be easily confused for one the other.


another thing..there is no such thing as a semetic race.

semetic is a language group including arabic, berber, assyrian, maltese, and sicilian was once a semetic language but was latinized, and in andalusia they use to speak a semetic/latin language.

arabs, berbers, assyrians, and maltese are all caucasians. 



Posted By: sicilia
Date Posted: 25-Dec-2010 at 23:38
Originally posted by Kanas_Krumesis

Dear Cyrus, I believe that your error is due to poor information. I should let you know that there is one ethnic group called http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roma_%28Romani_subgroup%29 - her Roma gypsy school in Sliven, Bulgaria, when he rescued her from bullies...
 
...By then Kordeza was five months pregnant and living with her grandmother Dida, 55, because her parents were both working on vineyards in Spain...

...When Jeliazko found out he was going to be a dad he dashed back from Spain, where he had been working on farms..."
 
Today Kordeza and her family living in Spain, so they by your logic could be an excellent example for a Spanish.
 
Your first photograph submit political demonstration of the party in which participate individuals of almost all ethnic groups in Bulgaria. I see there Bulgarian and Gypsy/Turkish faces. My photograph is much more accurate, because it was taken during a rally (in Plovdiv, Bulgaria before last elections in 2009) of Turkish ethnic party in Bulgaria called http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Movement_for_Rights_and_Freedoms -
 
 
 
 
 
 
In fact this people seems Semitic to me and they have very very small percentage Caucasian appearance.
 

caucasian race is very diverse group.

all these people are caucasian and like I said there is no semitic race, Semitic speaking people are all caucasians. all these people have caucasian feature, no mongoloid or negroid.



Posted By: sicilia
Date Posted: 25-Dec-2010 at 23:51
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

Kanas_Krumesis, what do you mean by Semitic? Do you think Syrians, Kurds, Persians and Armenians have Semitic origins too? You have probably seen my pics in this forum, what do you think about me? I'm a Persian, but I think there are also a large number of Syrians, Turks, Kurds and even southern European people who look like me. My cousins live in Italy and they themselves say that Italians think they are originally of Italian descent.
 
This is one of my pics in India:
 


you look no different from Mediterranean europeans. you would easily be mistaken for Italian, Lebanese, Greek, Spanish Portuguese etc. 

plus semetic is not a race, all semetic peoples are caucasian. 

remember the Sicily use to speak semitic language but  was latinized and Andalusia Spain use to speak a semetic/latin language. 

malta still speaks semitic language.



Posted By: sicilia
Date Posted: 25-Dec-2010 at 23:58
Originally posted by Kanas_Krumesis

 Cyrus, I don`t want to analyze the appearance of the forum members. It is truth that you look like South Italian or Greek (my personal opinion).
 We also can`t ignore the fact of Arab Conquest of Iran and following colonization, which explain widespread Semitic appearance among modern Iranians. Of course this is not an absolute norm for all Iranians and there are Iranians even with Nordic appearance. This can be explained with Caucasian type of ancient Iranians. Existence of some minimal Caucasian appearance among Turks also can be explain due to Turkization of Eastern Europeans.
 But why Turks look Semitic at all? They pretend to be direct successors of mighty Steppe nation, but obviously they don`t looks like other Central Asian and Turkic nations!? They don`t have similar culture. Among Turks from ex-Ottoman empire Mongoloid appearance is minimal. Yes, they speak Turkic language, but for example Azeri people speak their language since several centuries. They were forced to learn it.
 
 I think that this ordinary Turkish man meets a one to one type of Semitic appearance. Do you agree with me? He is not a typical Italian, I think.
 
 

I disagree.

this guy definitely look Italian...he could be my cousin lol.

If this guy knew how speak Italian perfect then all Italians would automatically think he was Italian because he look the same. he can pass for Greek, Spanish, Portuguese, Albanian, Maltese etc. as well.






Posted By: sicilia
Date Posted: 26-Dec-2010 at 00:32
Originally posted by PakistaniShield

This seems to be getting way off topic.

But a couple of points I have to make. @Cyrus when I wrote hispanic it means Spanish people from South America who are of various backgrounds.

I would not say you look Mongoloid, but more Caucasian with some Mongoloid admixture. And your pics as a child are also not surprising. Children especially of Caucasian (Caucasian as in skull type) can many times show light skin, hair and other light features at infancy.

I recently saw photographs of myself as an infant and it showed me having pale Mediterranean complexion with dark brown eyes and that's true for many other Pakistani kids I've seen. SOme kids from northern Pakistan also grow red or blond hair in their first few years but with the hot temperatures of Karachi your skin gets darker.

I remember when I was in Sri Lanka my skin turned almost black.

I think the best way to get back to the main topic which is about Caucasian skulled people in Central Asia is to discuss Scythians, Tocharians and other Caucasianoid people in Central Asia before they were killed off/assimilated by migrating Altaic hordes.

The Uyghurs in China are said to be partly of Tocharian and Turko-Mongol descent. Their features show this to be true as well. The same for certain Mongolians having some Scythian roots in them.

I remember seeing pics of blond haired Mongolians.


NO  hispanic does NOT mean "spanish south american people of different backgrounds" that doesn't even make sense.

listen honey I'm sicilian and I was raised in south america. 

the word hispanic in spanish is "hispano" 

hispanos are the spaniards and NO one else. If you go to a spanish speaking south American country, you will see that the word hispano is used only for spaniards and people o pure spaniard descent.

blacks and amerindians are NEVER called hispanics because they are not!!!! 

when amerindians and blacks from latin america immigrate to spain they are never called hispanos/hispanics, that would be like a slap in the face to spaniards.

listen, these blacks and amerindians from latin america are never called hispanic/hispanos in their own countries or in spain

the usa is the only country in the world to call these blacks and amerindians hispanic/hispano. 

the stupid american government decided to start labeling blacks and amerindians as hispanic and latinos when they are NOT! the american government encourages these labels and spend a lot of money in advertising propaganda to have these amerindians and blacks identify with these labels.

Its a huge insult because america is robbing the latino identity from europeans and the hispanic identity from the spaniards. 

its no fair that these amerindians from mexico and these blacks from the Caribbean are robbing our identities.

these people are a big joke in latin america, people in latin america always say why are the stupid amerindians and blacks in the USa calling themselves spanish, hispanic/latino when they know that they are not and they are robbing our identities.


It really makes me mad how the latino and hispanic identities which are EUROPEAN are being robbed in the usa. its all americas fault, i dont know why they are putting so much money into advertising propaganda to make as if latino/hispanic=black and amerindian when it does NOT

Theres definitely some kind of agenda behind it.





Posted By: Kanas_Krumesis
Date Posted: 26-Dec-2010 at 04:55
sicilia, thank you for your constructive attendance. I've been several times in Spain and once in Italy and can make clear delimitation between people from this country and North African immigrants who live there for example. I am surprised that you as a Sicilian have a such position. As I personally know, to call someone "Moor" in Sicily is one of the biggest insult. There is a huge difference between the appearance of people who live on both sides of the Straits of Gibraltar. People from North Africa and Arab Middle East have a dark to brown skin, mainly wooly hair, peculiar face type and clear Sub-Saharan admixture.
This video is from Malaga, Spain on north.
[TUBE]L1k1yuOgj-Y[/TUBE]
 
and this is from Casablanca. Morocco on south
[TUBE]sooyAaKF524[/TUBE]


Posted By: Cryptic
Date Posted: 26-Dec-2010 at 09:15
In the end, Meditteranean peoples (all caucasoids) have a very complex  ancestory and vary widely in physical appereance, even with in the same group. 
 
Asa side note, this thread is experiencing the same difficulies as the thread attempting to identify whether or not  Indians and Paksitanis have the largely the same physcial features Then factor in accusations from the Pakistan - India thread  that sample  photos can be  "cherry picked" to support  particular conclusions. Or the terms resemble "some" or "many" stretched to support particular conclusions  http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=5269&PN=7 - http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=5269&PN=7
 
 
Originally posted by sicilia

I disagree.

this guy definitely look Italian...he could be my cousin lol.

If this guy knew how speak Italian perfect then all Italians would automatically think he was Italian because he look the same. he can pass for Greek, Spanish, Portuguese, Albanian, Maltese etc. as well.

  

Would the man in question pass as a "typical Italian" inluding those Italians from north of Rome? Or could he pass for some Italians who are from some parts of southeren Italy?  My guess is that he resembles only some Italians from southeren Italy. 
Originally posted by sicilia

I'm from sicily and many look the same like Sicilians and other Italians, Maltese, Greeks, Spanish, Corsicans, Sardinia, Portuguese, Iranians, Lebanese, Syrians, Iraqis, Georgians, Armenians, Kurds, Albanians, etc i can keep going lol Big smile
Though all the people in the photos could pass for some Corscicans, Portuguese, Spaniards, Sardinians, I do not think that most of the Corscicans or Portuguese resemble most of these people.
 
Originally posted by Kanas_Krumesis

 
and this is from Casablanca. Morocco on south
Being a large city, Casablanca has a more arab / semitic influence and has probably more immigration from the deep sahara than other parts of Morrocco.  Rural Moroccans from the high Atlas mountains (Berbers) are more likely to resemble the Spaniards.
  
 
http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=5269&PN=7 -
 
 


Posted By: Altar
Date Posted: 26-Dec-2010 at 10:42
Originally posted by Kanas_Krumesis

Originally posted by Altar

these people are gypsies from bulgaria you can clearly see.  don't direct people into the way you want. 
 
No, you and people like you are these who try to falsify notion of the Europeans and other civilized nations about you with lies. It`s not my fault that the Turks actually looks very much like gypsies.
BTW Turks from Republic of Turkey and those who live in Bulgaria looks also like any other people from the Middle East, mainly Arabs.
 
Let the people make their own conclusion about Turkish appearance. This video is made in Sofia this summer. The protest was organized by the followers of pro-Turkish mufti Mustafa Alish Hadji who was removed by the Bulgarian Supreme court from his position as a head of the Islamic religion in Bulgaria, because of his anti-state and Islamist activity. A few weeks later during his visit in Bulgaria the Turkish Foreign Minister Ahmet Davutoğlu raised the question of Hadji`s reinstatement in his previous position. It was rejected.
 
[TUBE]_piRi3hG-1s[/TUBE]
 
[TUBE]kEkRQNuwYHU&feature=related[/TUBE]
 


kanas,

you are totally wrong. i looked into the picture in detail. i really don't see a "single" turkish looking person there. i don't understand your "superiror" effort to show turkish people like gipsies or arabic looking. btw, your other "uploaded" pictures are taken from an organisation of the islamic party, do you know who are following this party in turkey? arabians and kurds mostly, so, these people do look like really aryen people than the turkish look.  if you wanna take a look into "the real turkish" citizens' pictures, you should look into pictures of an organization of a politic party which is followed by "turks", pleas see below links:
http://arsiv.ntvmsnbc.com/news/264635.jpg
http://www.kenthaber.com/ege/izmir/Haber/Genel/Normal/rekor-gavur-izmirde/26d92767-91fb-4620-a048-99d3afa82f74

aryens: iranians, kurds, or georgians etc. dark haired, mostly white skinned but incredebilly dark haired, these are typical in aryens.

but turks, you should know that turks have tottaly oppisite race properties in compresion to aryen.
in chinese and arabic records, turks were ment as green eyed and red haired (it was different than black so they called it as red ai guess), see below links, search for green eyes :)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Kyrgyzstan#Origins_of_the_Kyrgyz_people
http://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Kyrgyzstan

 in this case, the turkish looking is different than you are trying to show here. this is the certain truth.


Posted By: Altar
Date Posted: 26-Dec-2010 at 10:46
BTW, at the video which you uploaded (1st one), at 0:13 i can see men with white hats, these are all lturkish...but i looked carefully into the video, there are plenty of gipsies who are just there to do their job, becasue it is a crowded protest. some vallets have to be picked up :)


Posted By: Kanas_Krumesis
Date Posted: 26-Dec-2010 at 11:12
Originally posted by sicilia

The only caucasian people that are not typical looking caucasians are Nordic/Anglo Saxon people and Indians and some Pakistanis.

nordic/anglo saxon people stand out from other caucasians because they have slightly different facial structure and indians and some pakistanis stand out from other caucasians because they also have a slightly different look compared to other caucasians.  what I'm saying is that most caucasians from the Mediterranean Europe and Africa, middle east, central asia and some parts eastern europe basically look the same and can be easily confused for one the other.

 
According to your view, these representatives of the Bulgarian nation are not typical Caucasians. Can you explain how these "Anglo-Saxons" were taken in south-eastern Europe?
 
 
 


Posted By: Kanas_Krumesis
Date Posted: 26-Dec-2010 at 11:25

Altar, I respect your opinion but the truth is different. If you ask these people what is their nationality, they will answer: "Turk!" and will never say "Bulgarians!". To say "Bulgarians" would be shameful for them, because according old Ottoman ideology Bulgarians are the second hand humans (Gyaur). Their mother tongue is Turkish, they are Muslims and they feel pride of the Ottoman past. They vote massively for the Turkish ethnic party in Bulgaria and many of them have dual Turkish citizenship. Stay on you to tell whether they are Turks.



Posted By: sicilia
Date Posted: 26-Dec-2010 at 11:35
Originally posted by Kanas_Krumesis

sicilia, thank you for your constructive attendance. I've been several times in Spain and once in Italy and can make clear delimitation between people from this country and North African immigrants who live there for example. I am surprised that you as a Sicilian have a such position. As I personally know, to call someone "Moor" in Sicily is one of the biggest insult. There is a huge difference between the appearance of people who live on both sides of the Straits of Gibraltar. People from North Africa and Arab Middle East have a dark to brown skin, mainly wooly hair, peculiar face type and clear Sub-Saharan admixture.
This video is from Malaga, Spain on north.
[TUBE]L1k1yuOgj-Y[/TUBE]
 
and this is from Casablanca. Morocco on south
[TUBE]sooyAaKF524[/TUBE]


When I was comparing Mediterranean europeans with Mediterranean north Africans, I was talking about the unmixed white/caucasian north Africans.

The majority of the north African immigrants in europe are mixed caucasian and negroid or as we say "mulatos"

Yes I agree the mulatos look very different from the Mediterranean europeans because they have negroid features mixed with caucasian but not all north Africans are mulatos and many are unmixed caucasians that don't have any negroid features.

when I say Mediterranean europeans and north Africans look the same, I am not referring to the mulatos but the unmixed caucasians.

The north Africans were originally all caucasians, a semitic speaking group called Berbers. The Berbers had many black slaves and took many black women as concubines, as a result we see today that many north Africans are mulatos. These north african mulatos are all arabized and will usually identify themselves as Arabs even though they are not.

North African mulatos are a mix of Berber and negroid but they identify as Arabs because they speak Arabic and are all arabized but they actually hardly have any Arab admixture in them at all.

There are still unmixed Berbers in north Africa, they look no different from Mediterranean europeans and many of the Berbers up in the mountains look just like Nordics.

I have seen Moroccan and Algerian women with blond hair and blue eyes and pale skin that looked no different from Nordic women and can easily fool any Nordic. 

The queen of morocco is unmixed Berber and she is very white and a red head, she looks no different from Irish women.


Its true that many Europeans will take it as an insult if you say they look like north Africans because the only north Africans that come to europe are the mulatos.

most Europeans have the image that north Africa = mulatos but many Europeans don't know that not all north Africans are mulatos and many are unmixed Caucasians. The unmixed caucasian north Africans are not the ones that immigrate to europe so europeans never know they exist but they do.






Posted By: sicilia
Date Posted: 26-Dec-2010 at 12:04

This is a response to kasa kremisis regarding the pictures of the Bulgarian women. for some reason my post didn't quote your post which I tried to do.




I was talking more about facial structure, I wasn't talking about light features like blond hair and blue eyes. 

for example there are people from the Mediterranean that can have light features like blond hair and blue eyes but I can tell the difference from light featured Mediterraneans from light featured Nordics, they might have the same light features but there facial structure looks different. 

many people from Finland,Sweden etc have a different face compared to people from the Mediterranean, it doesn't matter if they have the same light features.


I have seen many Bulgarians and many have light features like blond hair and blue eyes but there facial structure looks different compared to Nordics.

some Nordics have a slight mongoloid look to them.

In many cases I can be wrong, but its just an observation that I noticed. 

I just want to make clear I wasn't talking about light features like blond hair and blue eyes when i said some Nordics look different, i was talking about facial structure.

same with Indians and Pakistanis I wasn't talking about their dark skin but more so their facial features.

for example many Pakistanis and Indians are very light but i can still tell them apart from other Caucasians.

This is just something that I noticed myself, my own observations, so I could be totally wrong in many cases.





Posted By: balochii
Date Posted: 26-Dec-2010 at 18:28
Originally posted by Cryptic

In the end, Meditteranean peoples (all caucasoids) have a very complex  ancestory and vary widely in physical appereance, even with in the same group. 
 
Asa side note, this thread is experiencing the same difficulies as the thread attempting to identify whether or not  Indians and Paksitanis have the largely the same physcial features Then factor in accusations from the Pakistan - India thread  that sample  photos can be  "cherry picked" to support  particular conclusions. Or the terms resemble "some" or "many" stretched to support particular conclusions  http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=5269&PN=7 - http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=5269&PN=7
 
 
Originally posted by sicilia

I disagree.

this guy definitely look Italian...he could be my cousin lol.

If this guy knew how speak Italian perfect then all Italians would automatically think he was Italian because he look the same. he can pass for Greek, Spanish, Portuguese, Albanian, Maltese etc. as well.

  

Would the man in question pass as a "typical Italian" inluding those Italians from north of Rome? Or could he pass for some Italians who are from some parts of southeren Italy?  My guess is that he resembles only some Italians from southeren Italy. 
Originally posted by sicilia

I'm from sicily and many look the same like Sicilians and other Italians, Maltese, Greeks, Spanish, Corsicans, Sardinia, Portuguese, Iranians, Lebanese, Syrians, Iraqis, Georgians, Armenians, Kurds, Albanians, etc i can keep going lol Big smile
Though all the people in the photos could pass for some Corscicans, Portuguese, Spaniards, Sardinians, I do not think that most of the Corscicans or Portuguese resemble most of these people.
 
Originally posted by Kanas_Krumesis

 
and this is from Casablanca. Morocco on south
Being a large city, Casablanca has a more arab / semitic influence and has probably more immigration from the deep sahara than other parts of Morrocco.  Rural Moroccans from the high Atlas mountains (Berbers) are more likely to resemble the Spaniards.
  
 
http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=5269&PN=7 -
 
 
 
i agree that guy in the other was cherry picking and painting south indians as fairskinned, the pics i posted look much more like real south indians.
 
also as for pakistan, pakistan is diverse in looks, most pakistanis especially from the east and south of pakistan do look similar to north indians, however western and northern pakistanis looks more afghan/iranic, as you know in northern pakistan some with even blonde hair, blue eyes
 
 
 
 
 


Posted By: Cryptic
Date Posted: 26-Dec-2010 at 19:08
Originally posted by balochii

i agree that guy in the other was cherry picking and painting south indians as fairskinned, the pics i posted look much more like real south indians.
  I agree with you.   But... I also think your counter samples were just a little heavy on the tribal sideWink


Posted By: balochii
Date Posted: 26-Dec-2010 at 21:13
^ i think only the first pic was tribal who live in jungles or villages,  but rest of the pics were from the main cities, which have no tribals living there. Also i think 2 of the pics were from Kerala, which has the darkest people in south india


Posted By: Ince
Date Posted: 27-Dec-2010 at 12:36
I actually worked with a Turk who had light hair and blue eyes, he told his family were originaly from Bosnia.   What is odd is, many Albanians I've met are also claiming that many Albaians in Turkey  became Turks as well. 

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Posted By: Altar
Date Posted: 27-Dec-2010 at 18:08
Originally posted by Ince

I actually worked with a Turk who had light hair and blue eyes, he told his family were originaly from Bosnia.   What is odd is, many Albanians I've met are also claiming that many Albaians in Turkey  became Turks as well. 


In bosnia, turks are living besided albanians. these are two different races.

regarding albaninas in turkey. They speak turkish and live like turks but they never forget their roots so their tongue, so it is not true to say "they became turks"


Posted By: Ince
Date Posted: 28-Dec-2010 at 01:35
Originally posted by Altar

Originally posted by Ince

I actually worked with a Turk who had light hair and blue eyes, he told his family were originaly from Bosnia.   What is odd is, many Albanians I've met are also claiming that many Albaians in Turkey  became Turks as well. 


In bosnia, turks are living besided albanians. these are two different races.

regarding albaninas in turkey. They speak turkish and live like turks but they never forget their roots so their tongue, so it is not true to say "they became turks"


He told his family were not Turks and they became Turks in Turkey.


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Posted By: Ince
Date Posted: 28-Dec-2010 at 01:56
I think the Alevi Turks have the highest oriental features in Turkey.  Most of the Alevi Turks I've seen have Mongoloid/Turan features.  Here in London their is a large Alevi community and the Alevi Turks who come to the Alevi centres all had some Oriental features.   My grandmother side from Elbistan have alot of oriental features.    I think this might be due to Alevis only mixing with other Alevis. 

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Posted By: Cryptic
Date Posted: 29-Dec-2010 at 09:44
Originally posted by Ince


He told his family were not Turks and they became Turks in Turkey.
 
I met a Turkish taxi cab drive in Ankara who told me the same thing (ancestors were Albanian). 
 
When the Ottomans withdrew from the Balkans, some of the local Bosnians and Albanians who were closely affilitated with the Ottoman colonial administration left with them. They then "Turkified".


Posted By: opuslola
Date Posted: 29-Dec-2010 at 17:46
I would imagine that in the real world hundreds of thousands if not millions of Germans, Italians, Japanese, Chinese, Croats, Serbs, Turks, etc., have possibly by now become AMERICANS!

Funny how such things happen?

But, with all of the Anti-American sentiment thrown around today, it is true! Most all of these people, at least into the third generation, mostly consider themselves as Americans of some descent or another! But, when pressed by outside influences most all of them would cleve to the word American to describe themselves and their children!

We are truly blessed in that regard! Back to back, we will fight as one thing, that is as "Americans!"

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http://www.quotationspage.com/subjects/history/


Posted By: Ince
Date Posted: 29-Dec-2010 at 20:14
Originally posted by Cryptic

Originally posted by Ince


He told his family were not Turks and they became Turks in Turkey.
 
I met a Turkish taxi cab drive in Ankara who told me the same thing (ancestors were Albanian). 
 
When the Ottomans withdrew from the Balkans, some of the local Bosnians and Albanians who were closely affilitated with the Ottoman colonial administration left with them. They then "Turkified".


That was also what many Albanians tell me. 

I do believe that many non Turkic people were Turkified over the past 100 years.  They even have a their word for Turkification/To Turkify  "Turkleshtime".
 
I have three Turkish neighbours and only one of them has oriental features and they are Alevis.   One of the other Turkish neighbours has light brown skin and afro hair, similar look to southern Arabs.  Where as the other one looks Southern European. 




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Posted By: PakistaniShield
Date Posted: 21-Jan-2011 at 15:28
Originally posted by balochii

 
i agree that guy in the other was cherry picking and painting south indians as fairskinned, the pics i posted look much more like real south indians.
 
also as for pakistan, pakistan is diverse in looks, most pakistanis especially from the east and south of pakistan do look similar to north indians, however western and northern pakistanis looks more afghan/iranic, as you know in northern pakistan some with even blonde hair, blue eyes
 


Most of Pakistan is Caucasian in looks and the fairest haired/eyed people in Pakistan are Dardic peoples not Iranic.
Northern Punjabis though not many fair haired amongst them look more Mediterranean. That's true for many Baloch & Pakhtuns as well


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http://pakhub.info">


Posted By: opuslola
Date Posted: 21-Jan-2011 at 17:38
Perhaps you guys should let "blind people" be your guides? There exists an old saying "You are what you eat", and what you eat (as well as your abiility to wash yourselves) also affects your smell!

So, take some people who were born blind, and have them smell your friends and your enemies, and then ask them to identify them?

On the battlefield, as well as in other cases, sometimes you can smell your enemies before you can see them!

Regards,

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http://www.quotationspage.com/subjects/history/


Posted By: plesiosauria
Date Posted: 21-Apr-2016 at 02:20
Please get over yourself. If your European ancestors hadn't decided to impose their language, religion, and genetics on the inhabitants of the Americas, we wouldn't have this issue today. You can't erase someone's identity, then complain about it when people make comparisons. That would be like a Roman complaining that a Gaul considers himself the same thing.

You mention Amerinds and blacks, but not other non-Spanish Europeans, Middle Easterners, or Asians living on the continent. Why is that? I'm starting to think you might also be a member of Stormfront. It's possible to share a heritage and a culture without being the same nationality, you know. Robbing? Tell it to the millions who were sold into slavery and colonized.

It's not like Spanish people had the best of images, to begin with, in the eyes of English speaking peoples.


Posted By: hansun
Date Posted: 02-Jun-2016 at 05:47
This is kind of a side topic. But whatever. Going off on a tangent never... well, nevermind.

Anyway, were there possibly caucasians in North America originally?

I mean, they were in Japan. Some speculate that they were all across north Asia.

Recently I read that there were/was an earlier wave(s) of migration(s) to North America than previously thought. Could this wave be that caucasian-looking people type?


Posted By: red clay
Date Posted: 08-Jun-2016 at 18:45
Originally posted by hansun

This is kind of a side topic. But whatever. Going off on a tangent never... well, nevermind.

Anyway, were there possibly caucasians in North America originally?

I mean, they were in Japan. Some speculate that they were all across north Asia.

Recently I read that there were/was an earlier wave(s) of migration(s) to North America than previously thought. Could this wave be that caucasian-looking people type?


Why don't you start a new thread? I'll contribute as will Sander.  This topic is one of our favorites. But so far no ones approached it here. 


-------------
"Arguing with someone who hates you or your ideas, is like playing chess with a pigeon. No matter what move you make, your opponent will walk all over the board and scramble the pieces".
Unknown.


Posted By: red clay
Date Posted: 08-Jun-2016 at 21:19
There is an underwater arch. site  in Florida, in the Wacilla river that's been dated to 14,000 + ybp. The artifacts found appear Solutrean in origin.
The concept that the Americas were settled from one direction is starting to look silly.





-------------
"Arguing with someone who hates you or your ideas, is like playing chess with a pigeon. No matter what move you make, your opponent will walk all over the board and scramble the pieces".
Unknown.



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