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Difference between Indians and Pakistanis

Printed From: History Community ~ All Empires
Category: Regional History or Period History
Forum Name: History of the South Asian subcontinent
Forum Discription: The Indian sub-continent and South Central Asia
URL: http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=28512
Printed Date: 27-Apr-2024 at 17:44
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Topic: Difference between Indians and Pakistanis
Posted By: chandergupta
Subject: Difference between Indians and Pakistanis
Date Posted: 22-Jun-2010 at 13:49
hi i think we indians should not be compared with Pakistanis.They are a mixture of arabs,persian,mongols,turks,central asians,afghans,and punjabis while we indians do not look like them.you only need two eyes to come up to this conclusion that Pakistanis and Indians are different genetically.
We indians are proud of our colour and history.
peace.
[TUBE]7hSUgy5XnXg[/TUBE]



Replies:
Posted By: balochii
Date Posted: 26-Jun-2010 at 14:37
Indians are proud of their colour. ahahahhahah what a joke man. you guys hate your dark skin. and yes ofcourse there is a difference between general indian/pakistani population, though there is overlapping aswell, especially between north western indians and eastern pakistanis


Posted By: PakistaniShield
Date Posted: 02-Jul-2010 at 16:22
Pakistanis are not a product of Arabs, Turks or Persians. That's just a myth the Islamists have pushed upon the confused Pakistani population.

Pakistanis are a hybrid race of white Europid Indo-Iranic tribes  merging with dark-skinned native Indus Valley people.

skin color doesn't determine one's race, it's the genetics. It would be better if you post some genetic maps instead. Skin pigmentation won't give you much info.

I have haplogroup maps if you want


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Posted By: ranjithvnambiar
Date Posted: 10-Jul-2010 at 00:42
Originally posted by PakistaniShield

Pakistanis are not a product of Arabs, Turks or Persians. That's just a myth the Islamists have pushed upon the confused Pakistani population.

Pakistanis are a hybrid race of white Europid Indo-Iranic tribes  merging with dark-skinned native Indus Valley people.

skin color doesn't determine one's race, it's the genetics. It would be better if you post some genetic maps instead. Skin pigmentation won't give you much info.

I have haplogroup maps if you want

Can You provide some proof for the dark skin of Indua valley people.

Can you provide some Genetical proof for Indo-Aryan & darkskinned native hybridisations..?


Posted By: ranjithvnambiar
Date Posted: 10-Jul-2010 at 00:49

Indians are not Hybrids of Indo-Europeans and any so -called aborigines of Indus valley

Indus-Saraswathi valley people are known to have migrated to Gangetic & Yamuna valley & other river banks like Narmada,Krishna & Godavari  after the Saraswathi River dried up in 1900BC.Indians are descendents of these people.

The results of various genetical & atnthropological studies  are given below

Since the 1990s, there have been numerous genetic studies of Indian populations, often reaching apparently divergent conclusions. There are three reasons for this: (1) the Indian region happens to be one of the most diverse and complex in the world, which makes it difficult to interpret the data; (2) early studies relied on too limited samples, of the order of a few dozens, when hundreds or ideally thousands of samples are required for some statistical reliability; (3) some of the early studies fell into the old trap of trying to equate linguistic groups with distinct ethnic entities — a relic of the nineteenth-century erroneous identification between language and race; as a result, a genetic connection between North Indians and Central Asians was automatically taken to confirm an Aryan invasion in the second millennium BCE, disregarding a number of alternative explanations.7 

More recent studies, using larger samples and much refined methods of analysis, both at the conceptual level and in the laboratory, have reached very different conclusions (interestingly, some of their authors had earlier gone along with the old Aryan paradigm). We will summarize here the chief results of nine studies from various Western and Indian Universities, most of them conducted by international teams of biologists, and more than half of them in the last three years; since their papers are complex and technical, what follows is, necessarily, highly simplified and represents only a small part of their content. 

The first such study dates back to 1999 and was conducted by the Estonian biologist Toomas Kivisild, a pioneer in the field, with fourteen co-authors from various nationalities (including M. J. Bamshad).9 It relied on 550 samples of mtDNA and identified a haplogroup called “U” as indicating a deep connection between Indian and Western-Eurasian populations. However, the authors opted for a very remote separation of the two branches, rather than a recent population movement towards India; in fact, “the subcontinent served as a pathway for eastward migration of modern humans” from Africa, some 40,000 years ago: 

“We found an extensive deep late Pleistocene genetic link between contemporary Europeans and Indians, provided by the mtDNA haplogroup U, which encompasses roughly a fifth of mtDNA lineages of both populations. Our estimate for this split [between Europeans and Indians] is close to the suggested time for the peopling of Asia and the first expansion of anatomically modern humans in Eurasia and likely pre-dates their spread to Europe.”

In other words, the timescale posited by the Aryan invasion / migration framework is inadequate, and the genetic affinity between the Indian subcontinent and Europe “should not be interpreted in terms of a recent admixture of western Caucasoids10 with Indians caused by a putative Indo-Aryan invasion 3,000–4,000 years BP.” 

The second study was published just a month later. Authored by U.S. biological anthropologist Todd R. Disotell,11 it dealt with the first migration of modern man from Africa towards Asia, and found that migrations into India “did occur, but rarely from western Eurasian populations.” Disotell made observations very similar to those of the preceding paper:


“The supposed Aryan invasion of India 3,000–4,000 years before present therefore did not make a major splash in the Indian gene pool. This is especially counter-indicated by the presence of equal, though very low, frequencies of the western Eurasian mtDNA types in both southern and northern India. Thus, the ‘caucasoid’ features of south Asians may best be considered ‘pre-caucasoid’ — that is, part of a diverse north or north-east African gene pool that yielded separate origins for western Eurasian and southern Asian populations over 50,000 years ago.”


Here again, the Eurasian connection is therefore traced to the original migration out of Africa. On the genetic level, “the supposed Aryan invasion of India 3000-4000 years ago was much less significant than is generally believed.” 

A year later, thirteen Indian scientists led by Susanta Roychoudhury studied 644 samples of mtDNA from some ten Indian ethnic groups, especially from the East and South.12 They found “a fundamental unity of mtDNA lineages in India, in spite of the extensive cultural and linguistic diversity,” pointing to “a relatively small founding group of females in India.” Significantly, “most of the mtDNA diversity observed in Indian populations is between individuals within populations; there is no significant structuring of haplotype diversity by socio-religious affiliation, geographical location of habitat or linguistic affiliation.” That is a crucial observation, which later studies will endorse: on the maternal side at least, there is no such thing as a “Hindu” or “Muslim” genetic identity, nor even a high- or low-caste one, a North- or South-Indian one — hence the expressive title of the study: “Fundamental genomic unity of ethnic India is revealed by analysis of mitochondrial DNA.” 

The authors also noted that haplogroup “U,” already noted by Kivisild et al. as being common to North Indian and “Caucasoid” populations, was found in tribes of eastern India such as the Lodhas and Santals, which would not be the case if it had been introduced through Indo-Aryans. Such is also the case of the haplogroup “M,” another marker frequently mentioned in the early literature as evidence of the invasion: in reality, “we have now shown that indeed haplogroup M occurs with a high frequency, averaging about 60%, across most Indian population groups, irrespective of geographical location of habitat. We have also shown that the tribal populations have higher frequencies of haplogroup M than caste populations.” 

Also in 2000, twenty authors headed by Kivisild contributed a chapter to a book on the “archaeogenetics” of Europe.13 They first stressed the importance of the mtDNA haplogroup “M” common to India (with a frequency of 60%), Central and Eastern Asia (40% on average), and even to American Indians; however, this frequency drops to 0.6% in Europe, which is “inconsistent with the ‘general Caucasoidness’ of Indians.” 

This shows, once again, that “the Indian maternal gene pool has come largely through an autochthonous history since the Late Pleistocene.” The authors then studied the “U” haplogroup, finding its frequency to be 13% in India, almost 14% in North-West Africa, and 24% from Europe to Anatolia; but, in their opinion, “Indian and western Eurasian haplogroup U varieties differ profoundly; the split has occurred about as early as the split between the Indian and eastern Asian haplogroup M varieties. The data show that both M and U exhibited an expansion phase some 50,000 years ago, which should have happened after the corresponding splits.” In other words, there is a genetic connection between India and Europe, but a far more ancient one than was thought. 

Another important point is that looking at mtDNA as a whole, “even the high castes share more than 80 per cent of their maternal lineages with the lower castes and tribals”; this obviously runs counter to the invasionist thesis. Taking all aspects into consideration, the authors conclude: “We believe that there are now enough reasons not only to question a ‘recent Indo-Aryan invasion’ into India some 4000 BP, but alternatively to consider India as a part of the common gene pool ancestral to the diversity of human maternal lineages in Europe.” Mark the word “ancestral.” 

After a gap of three years, Kivisild directed two fresh studies. The first, with nine 
colleagues, dealt with the origin of languages and agriculture in India.14 Those biologists stressed India’s genetic complexity and antiquity, since “present-day Indians [possess] at least 90 per cent of what we think of as autochthonous Upper Palaeolithic maternal lineages.” They also observed that “the Indian mtDNA tree in general [is] not subdivided according to linguistic (Indo-European, Dravidian) or caste affiliations,” which again demonstrates the old error of conflating language and race or ethnic group. 

Then, in a new development, they punched holes in the methodology followed by studies basing themselves on the Y-DNA (the paternal line) to establish the Aryan invasion, and point out that if one were to extend their logic to populations of Eastern and Southern India, one would be led to an exactly opposite result: “the straightforward suggestion would be that both Neolithic (agriculture) and Indo-European languages arose in India and from there, spread to Europe.” The authors do not defend this thesis, but simply guard against “misleading interpretations” based on limited samples and faulty methodology. 

The second study of 2003, a particularly detailed one dealing with the genetic heritage of India’s earliest settlers, had seventeen co-authors with Kivisild (including L. Cavalli-Sforza and P. A. Underhill), and relied on nearly a thousand samples from the subcontinent, including two Dravidian-speaking tribes from Andhra Pradesh.15 Among other important findings, it stressed that the Y-DNA haplogroup “M17,” regarded till recently as a marker of the Aryan invasion, and indeed frequent in Central Asia, is equally found in the two tribes under consideration, which is inconsistent with the invasionist framework. Moreover, one of the two tribes, the Chenchus, is genetically close to several castes, so that there is a “lack of clear distinction between Indian castes and tribes,” a fact that can hardly be overemphasized. 

genetic map

This also emerges from a diagram of genetic distances between eight Indian and seven Eurasian populations, distances calculate on the basis of 16 Y-DNA haplogroups (Fig. 1). The diagram challenges many common assumptions: as just mentioned, five castes are grouped with the Chenchus; another tribe, the Lambadis (probably of Rajasthani origin), is stuck between Western Europe and the Middle East; Bengalis of various castes are close to Mumbai Brahmins, and Punjabis (whom one would have thought to be closest to the mythical “Aryans”) are as far away as possible from Central Asia! It is clear that no simple framework can account for such complexity, least of all the Aryan invasion / migration framework. 

The next year, Mait Metspalu and fifteen co-authors analyzed 796 Indian (including both tribal and caste populations from different parts of India) and 436 Iranian mtDNAs.16 Of relevance here is the following observation, which once again highlights the pitfalls of any facile ethnic-linguistic equation: 

“Language families present today in India, such as Indo-European, Dravidic and Austro-Asiatic, are all much younger than the majority of indigenous mtDNA lineages found among their present-day speakers at high frequencies. It would make it highly speculative to infer, from the extant mtDNA pools of their speakers, whether one of the listed above linguistically defined group in India should be considered more ‘autochthonous’ than any other in respect of its presence in the subcontinent.”

We finally jump to 2006 and end with two studies. The first was headed by Indian biologist Sanghamitra Sengupta and involved fourteen other co-authors, including L. Cavalli-Sforza, Partha P. Majumder, and P. A. Underhill.17 Based on 728 samples covering 36 Indian populations, it announced in its very title how its findings revealed a “Minor Genetic Influence of Central Asian Pastoralists,” i.e. of the mythical Indo- Aryans, and stated its general agreement with the previous study. For instance, the authors rejected the identification of some Y-DNA genetic markers with an “Indo- European expansion,” an identification they called “convenient but incorrect ... overly simplistic.” To them, the subcontinent’s genetic landscape was formed much earlier than the dates proposed for an Indo-Aryan immigration: “The influence of Central Asia on the pre-existing gene pool was minor. ... There is no evidence whatsoever to conclude that Central Asia has been necessarily the recent donor and not the receptor of the R1a lineages.” This is also highly suggestive (the R1a lineages being a different way to denote the haplogroup M17). 

Finally, and significantly, this study indirectly rejected a “Dravidian” authorship of the Indus-Sarasvati civilization, since it noted, “Our data are also more consistent with a peninsular origin of Dravidian speakers than a source with proximity to the Indus....” They found, in conclusion, “overwhelming support for an Indian origin of Dravidian speakers.” 

Another Indian biologist, Sanghamitra Sahoo, headed eleven colleagues, including T. Kivisild and V. K. Kashyap, for a study of the Y-DNA of 936 samples covering 77 Indian populations, 32 of them tribes.18 The authors left no room for doubt:

“The sharing of some Y-chromosomal haplogroups between Indian and Central Asian populations is most parsimoniously explained by a deep, common ancestry between the two regions, with diffusion of some Indian- specific lineages northward.”

So the southward gene flow that had been imprinted on our minds for two centuries was wrong, after all: the flow was out of, not into, India. The authors continue:

“The Y-chromosomal data consistently suggest a largely South Asian origin for Indian caste communities and therefore argue against any major influx, from regions north and west of India, of people associated either with the development of agriculture or the spread of the Indo-Aryan language family.”


The last of the two rejected associations is that of the Indo-Aryan expansion; the first, that of the spread of agriculture, is the well-known thesis of Colin Renfrew,19 which traces Indo-European origins to the beginnings of agriculture in Anatolia, and sees Indo-Europeans entering India around 9000 BP, along with agriculture: Sanghamitra Sahoo et al. see no evidence of this in the genetic record. 

The same data allow the authors to construct an eloquent table of genetic distances between several populations, based on Y-haplogroups (Fig. 2). We learn from it, for instance, that “the caste populations of ‘north’ and ‘south’ India are not particularly more closely related to each other (average Fst value = 0.07) than they are to the tribal groups (average Fst value = 0.06),” an important confirmation of earlier studies. In particular, “Southern castes and tribals are very similar to each other in their Y-chromosomal haplogroup compositions.” As a result, “it was not possible to confirm any of the purported differentiations between the caste and tribal pools,” a momentous conclusion that directly clashes with the Aryan paradigm, which imagined Indian tribes as adivasis and the caste Hindus as descendants of Indo-Aryans invaders or immigrants.

In reality, we have no way, today, to determine who in India is an “adi”-vasi, but enough data to reject this label as misleading and unnecessarily divisive.

genetic-distance


Conclusions 

It is, of course, still possible to find genetic studies trying to interpret differences between North and South Indians or higher and lower castes within the invasionist framework, but that is simply because they take it for granted in the first place. None of the nine major studies quoted above lends any support to it, and none proposes to define a demarcation line between tribe and caste. The overall picture emerging from these studies is, first, an unequivocal rejection of a 3500-BP arrival of a “Caucasoid” or Central Asian gene pool. Just as the imaginary Aryan invasion / migration left no trace in Indian literature, in the archaeological and the anthropological record, it is invisible at the genetic level. The agreement between these different fields is remarkable by any standard, and offers hope for a grand synthesis in the near future, which will also integrate agriculture and linguistics. 

Secondly, they account for India’s considerable genetic diversity by using a time- scale not of a few millennia, but of 40,000 or 50,000 years. In fact, several experts, such as Lluís Quintana-Murci,20 Vincent Macaulay,21 Stephen Oppenheimer,22 Michael Petraglia,23 and their associates, have in the last few years proposed that when Homo sapiens migrated out of Africa, he first reached South-West Asia around 75,000 BP, and from here, went on to other parts of the world. In simple terms, except for Africans, all humans have ancestors in the North-West of the Indian peninsula. In particular, one migration started around 50,000 BP towards the Middle East and Western Europe: 

“indeed, nearly all Europeans — and by extension, many Americans — can trace their ancestors to only four mtDNA lines, which appeared between 10,000 and 50,000 years ago and originated from South Asia.” 24 

Oppenheimer, a leading advocate of this scenario, summarizes it in these words:

“For me and for Toomas Kivisild, South Asia is logically the ultimate origin of M17 and his ancestors; and sure enough we find the highest rates and greatest diversity of the M17 line in Pakistan, India, and eastern Iran, and low rates in the Caucasus. M17 is not only more diverse in South Asia than in Central Asia, but diversity characterizes its presence in isolated tribal groups in the south, thus undermining any theory of M17 as a marker of a ‘male Aryan invasion’ of India. One average estimate for the origin of this line in India is as much as 51,000 years. All this suggests that M17 could have found his way initially from India or Pakistan, through Kashmir, then via Central Asia and Russia, before finally coming into Europe.”25

 

We will not call it, of course, an “Indian invasion” of Europe; in simple terms, India acted “as an incubator of early genetic differentiation of modern humans moving out of Africa.”26 

Genetics is a fast-evolving discipline, and the studies quoted above are certainly not the last word; but they have laid the basis for a wholly different perspective of Indian populations, and it is most unlikely that we will have to abandon it to return to the crude racial nineteenth-century fallacies of Aryan invaders and Dravidian autochthons. Neither have any reality in genetic terms, just as they have no reality in archaeological or cultural terms. In this sense, genetics is joining other disciplines in helping to clean the cobwebs of colonial historiography. If some have a vested interest in patching together the said cobwebs so they may keep cluttering our history textbooks, they are only delaying the inevitable. 



Posted By: PakistaniShield
Date Posted: 10-Jul-2010 at 15:21


Can You provide some proof for the dark skin of Indua valley people.

Can you provide some Genetical proof for Indo-Aryan & darkskinned native hybridisations..?


I don't think DNA can provide much on a person's skin pigmentation. Everyone develops skin pigmentation in the sun except for albinos.

The IVC artifacts depict dark-skinned statues. As for the DNA the Y-chromosome haplogroups they put the average Pakistani closer to Eastern European populations than they do to Arabs or Northwest Indians.






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Posted By: PakistaniShield
Date Posted: 10-Jul-2010 at 15:24
Originally posted by ranjithvnambiar

Indians are not Hybrids of Indo-Europeans and any so -called aborigines of Indus valley




I was not discussing Indians, but rather Pakistanis. Read my post carefully.

The Y haplogroups and the linguistic evidence and pre-Islamic cultural artifacts is clear on a migration (or exodus) originating around the Eurasian steppes.


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Posted By: balochii
Date Posted: 10-Jul-2010 at 18:37
^ this ranjithvnambiar
is a hindu nationalistic, just look at all his posts, he thinks hindus are the masters of this world, they invented everything.


Posted By: PakistaniShield
Date Posted: 10-Jul-2010 at 19:27
Originally posted by balochii

^ this ranjithvnambiar
is a hindu nationalistic, just look at all his posts, he thinks hindus are the masters of this world, they invented everything.


No doubt. They also actually believe that 'hinduism' is the "oldest religion." 


All non-'hindus'  (the majority of the world) descend from people who had no religion!



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Posted By: ranjithvnambiar
Date Posted: 12-Jul-2010 at 02:33
Originally posted by balochii

^ this ranjithvnambiar
is a hindu nationalistic, just look at all his posts, he thinks hindus are the masters of this world, they invented everything.
Dont panic.. 
I dont think that way .
 I have proof(i have provided it in this case also) enough to believe what I believe about Harappans & Indus saraswathi civilization.
There was no Pakisthan some 64 years before and ,it was part of India before 1947.Nobody in this world heard the name pakisthan before 1947.

&  Your proofs are only your words and thats pathetic.


Posted By: ranjithvnambiar
Date Posted: 12-Jul-2010 at 03:04
Are the world reknowned geneticists Toomas Kivislid,Cavalli Sforza,P.A.Underhill , M.J.Bamshad 
Hindu nationalists..? 


Posted By: PakistaniShield
Date Posted: 12-Jul-2010 at 12:57
Originally posted by ranjithvnambiar


There was no Pakisthan some 64 years before and ,it was part of India before 1947.Nobody in this world heard the name pakisthan before 1947.


100% correct I never heard of a place called Pakisthan either.


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Posted By: balochii
Date Posted: 12-Jul-2010 at 13:58
Originally posted by ranjithvnambiar

Originally posted by balochii

^ this ranjithvnambiar
is a hindu nationalistic, just look at all his posts, he thinks hindus are the masters of this world, they invented everything.
Dont panic.. 
I dont think that way .
 I have proof(i have provided it in this case also) enough to believe what I believe about Harappans & Indus saraswathi civilization.
There was no Pakisthan some 64 years before and ,it was part of India before 1947.Nobody in this world heard the name pakisthan before 1947.

&  Your proofs are only your words and thats pathetic.
 
what is india? do you think all people living in india are one? keep living your dreams. The land of pakistan today had most of the ancient stuff of so called (ancient india) indians seem to be really jealous of it they have none of the great cities if indus valley or very few


Posted By: PakistaniShield
Date Posted: 12-Jul-2010 at 14:53
Originally posted by balochii

 
what is india? do you think all people living in india are one? keep living your dreams. The land of pakistan today had most of the ancient stuff of so called (ancient india) indians seem to be really jealous of it they have none of the great cities if indus valley or very few


Excellent post. It's not just Pakistan nowdays. "Greater India" according to many of them stretched all the way  into central asia and northwest all the way into modern Azerbaijan


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Posted By: opuslola
Date Posted: 12-Jul-2010 at 15:22
I am sorry! I am sorry, that I continue to see "goodness" or "Piety" or what ever you guys wish to prove, based upon the "outward appearence" of a people!

I can, from the great American State of Mississippi, state, with great assurance, that many of you are "pure racists!" All you see is the outer colour of a man or woman!

Sorry, but that is my view from what is called by some "the most racist State in the United States!"

But, instead, I work in a multi-cultural society, that really needs some outside examination!

It seems that we all "tend to get along!"

Try us, you'll like us?

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Posted By: ranjithvnambiar
Date Posted: 12-Jul-2010 at 21:58
Originally posted by PakistaniShield

Originally posted by balochii

 
what is india? do you think all people living in india are one? keep living your dreams. The land of pakistan today had most of the ancient stuff of so called (ancient india) indians seem to be really jealous of it they have none of the great cities if indus valley or very few


Excellent post. It's not just Pakistan nowdays. "Greater India" according to many of them stretched all the way  into central asia and northwest all the way into modern Azerbaijan
I meant to say Pakistan was part of British India and was conquered by 'East India Company".India is a name donated by British.British never spoke about pakistan when they were in power here they only knew a sindh province and punjab province.But they addressed afganistan seperately.If you want to rewrite history well ...go ahead.

Who spoke about skin colour here.People living in different parts of the world has different ethnic identities and they have genetical differences too.
People of Pakistan as proposed by some here are not genetically far from Indians.
They were all part of the same population some 64 years ago.
No genetic studies had produced a result favouring your claims.
And about Indus valley people, pakistani shield you need to study moore.

You people seem to assume much about things which are not being discussed here
If the belief that Indians are jealous of you gives some satisfaction to you ,then keep it...



Posted By: ranjithvnambiar
Date Posted: 12-Jul-2010 at 22:00
This racial superiority theory is the left over of "martial race theory" of colonial british.
You can google and find out the details of this martial race theory if youwant...


Posted By: PakistaniShield
Date Posted: 13-Jul-2010 at 16:03
Originally posted by ranjithvnambiar

 
I meant to say Pakistan was part of British India and was conquered by 'East India Company".India is a name donated by British.British never spoke about pakistan when they were in power here they only knew a sindh province and punjab province.But they addressed afganistan seperately.If you want to rewrite history well ...go ahead.

Who spoke about skin colour here.People living in different parts of the world has different ethnic identities and they have genetical differences too.
People of Pakistan as proposed by some here are not genetically far from Indians.
They were all part of the same population some 64 years ago.
No genetic studies had produced a result favouring your claims.
And about Indus valley people, pakistani shield you need to study moore.

You people seem to assume much about things which are not being discussed here
If the belief that Indians are jealous of you gives some satisfaction to you ,then keep it...



the British called it such, but it doesn't mean the lands and peoples are one. The ottomans colonized the Greeks and the Arabs into one state, doesn't mean they are the same.

As for genetics, the Haplogroup R1A1 is most common amongst Northern Pakistanis and Eastern Europeans, indians have no R1A1 except for some families that immigrated through Pakistan

Genetically eastern European populations are closer to Pakistanis than are indians. Would indians  like to claim commonality with eastern europeans too?

indians are far too genetically diverse. your own scientists call your country the most geneticly diverse country on Earth

Distribution of haplogorup R1A:
http://www.humanjourney.us/images/R1a-map.jpg




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Posted By: ranjithvnambiar
Date Posted: 13-Jul-2010 at 22:14
I am not a genetist to know about the hairspilt details of such studies.But have faith in the above mentioned genetists  because of their reputation and knows enough language to read and understand the conclusion of their studies.thats it.
I dont want to contradict with you any furthar.If you believe Pakistanis are different from Indians, well go ahead and believe so...But I was just sharing my views.. 


Posted By: PakistaniShield
Date Posted: 14-Jul-2010 at 00:18
Originally posted by ranjithvnambiar

I am not a genetist to know about the hairspilt details of such studies.But have faith in the above mentioned genetists  because of their reputation and knows enough language to read and understand the conclusion of their studies.thats it.
I dont want to contradict with you any furthar.If you believe Pakistanis are different from Indians, well go ahead and believe so...But I was just sharing my views.. 


Your's or anybody's views are irrelevant when discussing facts . The data on the haplogroups don't put any Pakistani populations in the same linage as indian populations. Most of them don't even appear the same at all and you know this to be fact.

Even the people in northwestern india. How belong to Haplogroup R2 are not in R1A1.

If you really want to convince anyone that Pakistanis are the same as "indians" you'd better give some factual DNA data instead of saying he or she said so.

Post some haplogroup maps like the one I linked. Otherwise don't expect anyone to believe you anymore than you can convince cats and dogs are the same species and then post some random dots. Post something scientific instead of a page with random dots or simply quoting another person's statement that adds no evidence.


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Posted By: ranjithvnambiar
Date Posted: 14-Jul-2010 at 02:25
I dont think that I have equated the species of cats & dogs.Here is  a link regarding s genetic study carried out onthe populations carried out on South asians.

  http://tripatlas.com/Genetics_and_Archaeogenetics_of_South_Asia - http://tripatlas.com/Genetics_and_Archaeogenetics_of_South_Asia

And I believe in many cases we have to depend on other person's statement.


Posted By: PakistaniShield
Date Posted: 14-Jul-2010 at 14:10
OK. So what exactly in that report contradicts what I say?  

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Posted By: ranjithvnambiar
Date Posted: 14-Jul-2010 at 20:42
Originally posted by PakistaniShield

Originally posted by ranjithvnambiar

 
I meant to say Pakistan was part of British India and was conquered by 'East India Company".India is a name donated by British.British never spoke about pakistan when they were in power here they only knew a sindh province and punjab province.But they addressed afganistan seperately.If you want to rewrite history well ...go ahead.

Who spoke about skin colour here.People living in different parts of the world has different ethnic identities and they have genetical differences too.
People of Pakistan as proposed by some here are not genetically far from Indians.
They were all part of the same population some 64 years ago.
No genetic studies had produced a result favouring your claims.
And about Indus valley people, pakistani shield you need to study moore.

You people seem to assume much about things which are not being discussed here
If the belief that Indians are jealous of you gives some satisfaction to you ,then keep it...



the British called it such, but it doesn't mean the lands and peoples are one. The ottomans colonized the Greeks and the Arabs into one state, doesn't mean they are the same.

As for genetics, the Haplogroup R1A1 is most common amongst Northern Pakistanis and Eastern Europeans, indians have no R1A1 except for some families that immigrated through Pakistan

Genetically eastern European populations are closer to Pakistanis than are indians. Would indians  like to claim commonality with eastern europeans too?

indians are far too genetically diverse. your own scientists call your country the most geneticly diverse country on Earth

Distribution of haplogorup R1A:
http://www.humanjourney.us/images/R1a-map.jpg



high frequency of R1a1 found in several  http://tripatlas.com/South_Indian - South Indian  tribes including the  http://tripatlas.com/Chenchu - Chenchu  and the  http://tripatlas.com/Badagas - Badagas , together with a higher R1a1-associated STR diversity in India and  http://tripatlas.com/Iran - Iran  compared with Europe and Central Asia, has been taken as evidence for an origin of R1a1 (M17) in Southern or Western Asia (Kivisild 2003b).
http://tripatlas.com/Stephen_Oppenheimer - Stephen Oppenheimer , who reports upon the results of the Human Genome Diversity Project in his book "The Real Eve: Modern Man's Journey out of Africa", comments that, "For me and for  http://tripatlas.com/Toomas_Kivisild - Toomas Kivisild ,  http://tripatlas.com/South_Asia - South Asia  is logically the ultimate origin of M17 and his ancestors; and sure enough we find highest rates and greatest diversity of the M17 line in http://tripatlas.com/Pakistan - Pakistan , India, and eastern Iran, and low rates in the Caucasus. M17 is not only more diverse in South Asia than in Central Asia but diversity characterizes its presence in isolated tribal groups in the south, thus undermining any theory of M17 as a marker of a 'male Aryan Invasion of India'" (p. 152). Oppenheimer further believes that it is highly suggestive that India is the origin of the  http://tripatlas.com/Eurasia - Eurasia n  http://tripatlas.com/MtDNA - mtDNA  haplogroups which he calls the "Eurasian Eves". According to Oppenheimer it is highly probable that nearly all human maternal lineages in  http://tripatlas.com/Europe - Europe  (and similarly in East Asia) descended from only four mtDNA lines that originated in South Asia 50,000-10,000 years ago.

R1A1 is very common iin Indian castes and tribes of even south India.

And I thought you were proposing a possibility of Aryan invasion for such a distribution.I was contradicting with that.
AI meant to say studuies indicate a very early seperation of European & south asian population.


Posted By: PakistaniShield
Date Posted: 15-Jul-2010 at 02:51
Like I said before, with the exceptions of migration of populations through Pakistan, R1A reached parts of India and yes I read before many Dravidian ethnicities have it.

There's nothing new here.

"AI meant to say studuies indicate a very early seperation of European & south asian population."

Not all South Asians are linked with Europeans. It's mainly the people who carry R haplogroup markers who share a common ancestry with European populations as a result of "backward" migration of Europeans known as your Aryan invasion.

There might have been migrations earlier than the Aryan invasion as haplogroup R2 which is mostly northwest indian. R2 is separate from R1, so the migrations might have occurred in separate waves.




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Posted By: ranjithvnambiar
Date Posted: 15-Jul-2010 at 21:35
"There might have been migrations "
There was a migration from Africa which happened some 60000 years ago which resulted in peopling of Asia and Europe.And there is no proof for Aryan invasion.
And the similarity of Pakistanis & North West Indians to Geeks  is due to the Alexanders expeditions through which he conquered upto indus.Later this whole province was ruled for a long period by Seleucas Nicator.And during Chandra Gupta's time they (seleucus & Chandra gupta,sandrocottus in greek) had marriage relations with each other.
This is the historical attestation for the european connection.this occured in 4th-3rd century BC
And later the white huns or scythians & other Nomadic groups invaded the Northwest of the Subcontinent and destroyed Taxila this also is an attested historical event which supports european connections.



Posted By: ranjithvnambiar
Date Posted: 15-Jul-2010 at 23:57
For nearly a millenium , from 500BC till 470 AD till the destruction of Taxila and even afterwards. there was constant interactions & battles in the North west part of the Indian sub continent.

Bactrians Greeks,Indo-greeks,Scythians,Nomads from north & central Asia all were invading and settling  in the Area.These events are well attested by History and archaeologically.



Posted By: PakistaniShield
Date Posted: 16-Jul-2010 at 15:39
Originally posted by ranjithvnambiar

"There might have been migrations "
There was a migration from Africa which happened some 60000 years ago which resulted in peopling of Asia and Europe.And there is no proof for Aryan invasion.
And the similarity of Pakistanis & North West Indians to Geeks  is due to the Alexanders expeditions through which he conquered upto indus.Later this whole province was ruled for a long period by Seleucas Nicator.And during Chandra Gupta's time they (seleucus & Chandra gupta,sandrocottus in greek) had marriage relations with each other.
This is the historical attestation for the european connection.this occured in 4th-3rd century BC
And later the white huns or scythians & other Nomadic groups invaded the Northwest of the Subcontinent and destroyed Taxila this also is an attested historical event which supports european connections.



oh my God please don't tell me your confusing the Aryan migration with Alexander's invasion which happened more than a thousand years later.

I really don't think you know what your talking about, so I think it is best this pointless discussion come to an end and you go ahead and do some more research


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Posted By: opuslola
Date Posted: 16-Jul-2010 at 16:34
But, just what is a thousand years between cousins and friends?

For me, it is merely a number, and not a fact!

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http://www.quotationspage.com/subjects/history/


Posted By: ranjithvnambiar
Date Posted: 16-Jul-2010 at 20:23
Originally posted by PakistaniShield

Originally posted by ranjithvnambiar

"There might have been migrations "
There was a migration from Africa which happened some 60000 years ago which resulted in peopling of Asia and Europe.And there is no proof for Aryan invasion.
And the similarity of Pakistanis & North West Indians to Geeks  is due to the Alexanders expeditions through which he conquered upto indus.Later this whole province was ruled for a long period by Seleucas Nicator.And during Chandra Gupta's time they (seleucus & Chandra gupta,sandrocottus in greek) had marriage relations with each other.
This is the historical attestation for the european connection.this occured in 4th-3rd century BC
And later the white huns or scythians & other Nomadic groups invaded the Northwest of the Subcontinent and destroyed Taxila this also is an attested historical event which supports european connections.



oh my God please don't tell me your confusing the Aryan migration with Alexander's invasion which happened more than a thousand years later.

I really don't think you know what your talking about, so I think it is best this pointless discussion come to an end and you go ahead and do some more research
I am not confusing anything here.
Aryan invasion is somethig which had never happened.It is a theory propogated by many during colonial period.Firstly they proposed that Aryans came from central Asia,Then they changed the origin to Germany.(And world faced the brunt of the germany theory in thename of second world war and execution of Jews)Then  they proposed greece as Urheimat then Anatolia and finally they placed the origins at Russian Steppes.The latest version of Aryan Invasion theory is called "Kurgan Hypothesis" which Aryans originated in Russian steppes and then by 2500Bc they started migration first a group(hellenes) entered greece then another group(Celts) rest of Europe then yet another group(Aryans) to South East asian subcontinent(India ,Pak & Afgan & Iran).But this entry is least attested.Archaeologically,genetically,Anthropologically and Archaeo-astronomically.
After ythe genetical studies carried out on fossils from the 600+ archaeological sites on the banks of Indus & Gaggar- hakra banks.It was found that no such invasion took place.
Then the invasion theorists(mainly Linguists) changed the theory into AMT Aryan Migration theory but when the geneticists opposed this theory stating the rusults of their study(ie results of the studies failed to attest any invasion or large scale migration from a period of 5000BC to 600BC).
Then the AIT/AMT proponents changed it into a trickle -in infilteration without affecting the Genetics or material culture but still they argue that Aryans(race) came in



Posted By: PakistaniShield
Date Posted: 17-Jul-2010 at 16:19
you still haven't produced any evidence for it.  Linguistic, genetic evidence all provide evidence for this migration.

If the white IE could have moved as far east as China and mongolia, what makes people think it didn't happen in South Asia.

Haplogroups themselves show Northern Pakistani populations to be genetically closer to eastern European populations than to other populations in Asia.

This thread isn't any useful either


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Posted By: ranjithvnambiar
Date Posted: 18-Jul-2010 at 23:05
Originally posted by PakistaniShield

you still haven't produced any evidence for it.  Linguistic, genetic evidence all provide evidence for this migration.

If the white IE could have moved as far east as China and mongolia, what makes people think it didn't happen in South Asia.

Haplogroups themselves show Northern Pakistani populations to be genetically closer to eastern European populations than to other populations in Asia.

This thread isn't any useful either

Latest Archaeological Excavations in the banks of the Rigvedic Saraswati River(Gaggar Hakkra River) of west Rajastan which dried out during 1900 BC due to tectonic disturbances, has exposed Fire Altars made by cooked bricks dating back to 2700BC(Archaeological site of Kalibangan(a pre-harappan site) of West Rajasthan ,Surkotada & Lothal of Sabarmati Delta Gujarat).Construction of Sacrificial fire Altar and Fire worship is purely a Rigvedic Practice.These proofs are positively indicating the presence of Rigvedic Aryans in the banks of Saraswati and Sabarmati Delta during 3000BC.Where as many scholars argue that the fire worship was introduced in India/Indus Valley only after the Aryan Hordes came to the Indus valley duriing 1500BC.

Archaeological Excavations at Surkotada Gujarat & Lothal has Exposed Horse bones and Teeth(of Equus Caballus Lynn) and these dated back to 2800-2900BC.This indicates that the inhabitants of both Lothal & Surkotada were familiar with modern horses which according to many scholars were brought to India by invading hordes of Aryans in 1500BC.Even Horse specialist Sandor Bokonyi had attested the remains as that of modern horse.

Archaeological proofs doesnot support any large scale migration towards India/Indus-Saraswati valley from7000BC to 600AD.Also it provides proof for the presence of Aryan Fire worship and also usage of Horses in Indus-Saraswati.Surkotada and Lothal are considered as part of Indus valley & Kalibangan is a Pre-Harappan site on the banks of the Saraswati.

Archaeological Excavations at Surkotada Gujarat & Lothal has Exposed Horse bones and Teeth(of Equus Caballus Lynn) and these dated back to 2800-2900BC.This indicates that the inhabitants of both Lothal & Surkotada were familiar with modern horses which according to many scholars were brought to India by invading hordes of Aryans in 1500BC.

Archaeological proofs doesnot support any large scale migration towards India/Indus-Saraswati valley from3000BC to 100AD.This also is against the Indo-Aryan migration hypothesis.This doesnt support the claim that Indo Aryan groups from Mitanni & other areas came and settled in India during 1500BC.

Recent excavations have unearthed several Harappan/Saraswati and similar archaeological sites from  Baluchistan till Krishna -Godavari basins of South India.There are several pre-historic sites similar to harappan & Saraswati in Haryana,Rajastan,Gujarat,Maharashtra ,Karnataka & Andhra Pradesh States of India.

And at the peak of the civilization they might have had atleast15-20 million people on the banks of all these rivers.

It is really illogical to believe that some invading/migrating hordes of newcomers that also numbering only thousands came and taught Sanskrit to the whole population(20 million) and also taught them to follow fire rituals and eventually made them write Rigveda and other three vedas,Brahmanams,samhita,Aranyakas,Niruktas,Upanishads,Puranas,Gruhyasutras,Srouta sutras & pratisakhyas of the vedas(A total of more than 17500+ Sanskrit textbooks,and apart from this the Brighu Samhita,Parashara Hora Sutra and thousands of other text books).

Apart from this it is well known to Historians that the vedic sanskrit came to an end by 600Bc and gave way to classical sanskrit.And during 400BC Panini gave a proper grammatical form for the Classical sanskrit.So these  vedic & Upanishadic textbooks were composed much before 600BC.Atharva Veda is the only Veda that speaks  about iron and it is dated by historians back to 1200BC the early iron age.Rig is still older depicting bronze age ie before 2300BC,Not sure when it was written down first.

The names of all the rivers(hydronomy) & places in Indus valley is Indo-European or better to say Sanskrit ie Sindhu,Sutudri,Saraswati,sarsuti etc.In all other places where large scale migration or invasion took place the culture might have changed but not all the river & place names.In all the cases the old river names in the native languages are retained.

eg:- Names of almost all rivers & places in USA are still old red indian names ontario,michigun,Alaska etc.

Same is the case of places & rivers  in Europe also.

 

If indus valley has archaeological proof showing a civilization from 7000BC.if some Indo-Europeans from outside migrated to Indus invaded the natives and settled there afterwards how did they happen to change all the river names, without leaving even a single one..?

How did the illiterate barbaric hordes of horse riding Aryans who were in thousand happen to teach sanskrit to more than 20million natives of the existing civilization stretching from Baluchistan till karnataka in south India.And immediately after they started literary works..? or wrote 17500+ books in sanskrit..?

By saying genetic study I meant studies conduvted on the cranium sizes of the fossils from Indus-Saraswati sites.They show uniformity throughout for several ,milleniums say from 7000BC to 600BC.That is indicating homogenity of Civilization.

Different races of ethnic groups have different cranium structure and sizes so any invasion or large scale migration and offsprings generated after such events will have different cranium sizes and structure which is not found anywhere in Indus-saraswati valley.

Astronomical referances in 'Thaithiriya Brahmana' is indicating equinoxes that took place near about 8000BC.And many astronomical referances in Rigveda speaks about equinoxes and stellar positions of about 4300BC.

These stellar positions was observed by the composers with naked eye.

Because back calculation and refering such incidents is impossible.The astronomical constants used by astronomers and mathematicians of ancient India like Apasthanba(900BC) ,Pingala(700BC) were differing from our present day values at their 4th &5th decimal places.so if back calculated this decimal difference will leave a difference of 5 to 15 degree difference in the positions of various planets and stellar constallations.Apart from that the positions of moon is impossible to back calculateeven todayso would have been the same earlire too.A difference of 5 to 15 degreein position calculation will leave an error 600-1200years in the dates being back calculated.But the astronomical referances of Rigveda and other books are very accurate & this proves that it was observed by the composers of these works with their naked eyes.these vedas,Brahmanams,Upanishads,samhitas,Sroutasutras,Gruhyasutras etc were preserved through oral tradition for milleniums and written down in present form much later.

The use of planetaurium soft ware had helpedin finding out the correctdates of the astronomical referances in most of these books.Prof.Narahari Achar an astrophysist and faculty of Memphis University had found out the correct dates of mahabharatha war and many other such events using the Planetaurium soft ware.


Posted By: ranjithvnambiar
Date Posted: 18-Jul-2010 at 23:30
You should first try to know what is the present/latest  hypothesis about Indo-aryan migration or the Kurgan Hypothesis.And also before asserting on the"linguistic and genetic", also try to understand why the terms migration & trckle-in infilteration are used.Because no proof for invasion(battles or destruction) was found in any of the Indus or saraswati sites both genetical & archaeological.
First thing to say the Indus valley civilization was not a dravidian civilization as many believes they were similar to mesopotamians & iranians.
it is the invasionist school of thought who once upon  a time claimed them to be dravidian.Now they(AIT proponents) say that their language only was dravidian, which too had proved false by their own theory.
Please go through Kurgan Hypothesis & also Prof.Michael Witzel's paper's supporting the same.He is addressing to Cavalli Sforza's research results and has proposed the trickle-in infilteration due to lack of genetic proof for the Aryan Invasion or migration.
Prof.Michael Witzel & Erdosy are the strongest proponents of Aryan Invasion ,then migration and then trickle-in infilteration theory presently.


Posted By: PakistaniShield
Date Posted: 19-Jul-2010 at 03:20
now you seem to be selecting which scholars to quote. The articles you just pasted only give more evidence to the connection between IE speaking peoples from Europe to Asia.

I am open to dispute that the migration that took place was non-violent and perhaps the IVC people were Dravidian (though not proven), but this whole thing of Europeans migrating out of India or the linguistic and genetic linkage between the 2 populations being coincidence is getting boring.

Anyways i don't see anything more to discuss it's just going back and fourth.

fire worship, domesticated animals and animals worship are all traits of IE migration in Asia. I was just yesterday reading of genetic and linguistic affinities between Slavic and Indo-Aryan languages.

most forum members would find it interesting http://www.scribd.com/doc/14180564/INDOARYAN-AND-SLAVIC-LINGUISTIC-AFFINITIES


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Posted By: ranjithvnambiar
Date Posted: 19-Jul-2010 at 03:26
Before going any furthar in this subject ,we need to clarify our understanding about the subject.
 Who were the occupants of Mehrgarh ,Moenjodaro,Harappa,Rakhigarhi ,Dholavira , Lothal and other sites as per your understanding..? what were their timeline..?
What is the estimated size of the total area occupied by the civilization and what is the estimated population..?
Who are dravidians..? what do they look like..?
Did Aryan invasion of Indus valley take place ..? if yes what is the time line as per your understanding..? what was the estimated strength of the invading group..? Where did they come from..?
Who are aryans..? what do theylook like..?
What change did they bring about to the existing civilization..?



Posted By: ranjithvnambiar
Date Posted: 19-Jul-2010 at 04:16
The recent genetical studies which has ruled out the possibility of an Aryan invasion

http://sites.google.com/site/r2dnainfo/R2-Home/Aryans/reasons-why-the-aryan-invasion-theory - http://sites.google.com/site/r2dnainfo/R2-Home/Aryans/reasons-why-the-aryan-invasion-theory


Posted By: ranjithvnambiar
Date Posted: 19-Jul-2010 at 04:24
Originally posted by PakistaniShield

now you seem to be selecting which scholars to quote. The articles you just pasted only give more evidence to the connection between IE speaking peoples from Europe to Asia.

I am open to dispute that the migration that took place was non-violent and perhaps the IVC people were Dravidian (though not proven), but this whole thing of Europeans migrating out of India or the linguistic and genetic linkage between the 2 populations being coincidence is getting boring.

Anyways i don't see anything more to discuss it's just going back and fourth.

fire worship, domesticated animals and animals worship are all traits of IE migration in Asia. I was just yesterday reading of genetic and linguistic affinities between Slavic and Indo-Aryan languages.

most forum members would find it interesting http://www.scribd.com/doc/14180564/INDOARYAN-AND-SLAVIC-LINGUISTIC-AFFINITIES
When do you propose this migration to have taken place..?Where did they come from..?




Posted By: ranjithvnambiar
Date Posted: 19-Jul-2010 at 04:31
It is wellknown and evident that indo-European speaking peoples have connection there is nothing new in it..? 
I am asking about the possibility of a migration and please clarify your concept about the theory
"perhaps Dravidian" is of no use..Say whether you believe/propose them to be dravidians..
And about fire worship when do you think ot has started in Indus Valley..? or say when did the invasion/non-violent migration take place..?


Posted By: PakistaniShield
Date Posted: 19-Jul-2010 at 15:22

When do you propose this migration to have taken place..?Where did they come from..?


Not I propose. The consensus is the migration occurred around 1500BC- 1700BC.



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Posted By: ranjithvnambiar
Date Posted: 19-Jul-2010 at 20:24
Originally posted by PakistaniShield


When do you propose this migration to have taken place..?Where did they come from..?


Not I propose. The consensus is the migration occurred around 1500BC- 1700BC.


Thank You, Apart from this I would like to know some more things.Did they introduce fire rituals to India..?
Did they introduce animal Husbandry(like sheep,buffaloes, cattle etc) & agriculture to India..?
Did they introduce horses..?

I hope the link about the recent genetical studies which rule out an invasion during the above mentioned period was provided earlier please go through.


Posted By: PakistaniShield
Date Posted: 20-Jul-2010 at 02:43
the domestication of horses by ancient Indo-Europeans is well documented.

As for agriculture, that's a part of human prehistory.


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Posted By: balochii
Date Posted: 20-Jul-2010 at 06:20
^wow, you dont know anything about pakistan do you. pakistan has 5 main different cultures and many many more small cultures. The four main groups of people in pakistan are Punjabies(44%) Pashtuns(26%) Sindhis (10%) Mohajirs(10%) Balochis(5%) and other smaller tribes mostly in the north around(5%)


Posted By: balochii
Date Posted: 20-Jul-2010 at 06:23
contrary to the popular belief pakistan actually has a huge iranic speaking population, pashtuns make a huge chunk of pakistani population and baloch are also iranic. most people think pakistan is 100% indic nation like india


Posted By: ranjithvnambiar
Date Posted: 20-Jul-2010 at 20:23
Originally posted by PakistaniShield

the domestication of horses by ancient Indo-Europeans is well documented.

As for agriculture, that's a part of human prehistory.

I hope you are aware of Mehrgarh Civilization & the fact that even they had domesticated cattles,sheep & buffaloes. This is against your earlier claim of invading /or nonviolent migrating Aryans introducing this to indus valley.Harappans had domesticated elephants and Horses.Surkotada(a harappan site of present day gujarat dating back to 2700BC) had produced bones of domesticated modern horse ie "equus caballus lynn." And world renowned Horse specialist Sandor Bokonyi had vouched this indicating that Harappans/Indus valley people had domesticated Horses much before or milleniums before the so called Aryan invasion.Kindly follow the link for furthar details

http://www.archaeologyonline.net/artifacts/horse-debate.html - http://www.archaeologyonline.net/artifacts/horse-debate.html


Posted By: ranjithvnambiar
Date Posted: 20-Jul-2010 at 21:38
To have a better under standing about what archaeologists say about Indus-Saraswati valley & its inhabitants please follow the link.

http://www.cycleoftime.com/articles_view.php?codArtigo=54 - http://www.cycleoftime.com/articles_view.php?codArtigo=54


Posted By: Vajra
Date Posted: 21-Jul-2010 at 21:35
OMG... thats some seriously bias Propaganda by Pakistanis LOL

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Posted By: balochii
Date Posted: 22-Jul-2010 at 11:44

^ you mean indian nationalistics? what propganda are u referring too?



Posted By: Vajra
Date Posted: 22-Jul-2010 at 12:35
Originally posted by balochii

^ you mean indian nationalistics? what propganda are u referring too?


The Video made by Pakistani Nationalists ofcrose Shocked


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Posted By: balochii
Date Posted: 22-Jul-2010 at 13:12
^ how is that propoganda? pakistanis are lighter then most indians, we already know this


Posted By: Vajra
Date Posted: 22-Jul-2010 at 13:41
Originally posted by balochii

^ how is that propoganda? pakistanis are lighter then most indians, we already know this

but MOST Pakistanis however are not. like Punjabis and Sindhi's and Mohajirs and you cant tell difference between Indians and Pakistanis by their physical features VAST majority of them dont look different.

This video only demonstrates how picking and choosing each image to suit their political propaganda. [ Showing only lighter Pakistanis and how its society is more modern than their Indian Neighbors etc etc ] 

Its impossible to make out who is Pakistani and who is Indian. There is in a huge South Asian population in Jackson Height, Queens, NYC when you go there it's impossible to make out.

There is not "real" difference between Indians and Pakistanis. 

http://www.flickr.com/photos/rumana-husain/2500267050/ - http://www.flickr.com/photos/rumana-husain/2500267050/
[source - A charming Baloch Girl by Rumana Husain - Flickr] 

Would you say this girl looks Balochi or Tamil? LOL


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Posted By: balochii
Date Posted: 22-Jul-2010 at 13:56
Punjabies look similar to indian punjabies and north indians from delhi area, while sindhis and Rajahistani look similar, mohajirs only make like 9% of pakistani population and most of them are from the urdu speaking areas of north india, but all of these people above look different and are lighter skinned then indians from east india (bengal), central india and south india, which make up majority of indians and dont forget close to 30% of pakistan is iranic population who are fairskinned. So like i said overall pakistanis are lighter skinned then majority of indians, which includes all indians not just north indians.


Posted By: balochii
Date Posted: 22-Jul-2010 at 13:57
the balochi girl you are posting is a sidhi who are migrants from africa settled in pakistan, get your facts right


Posted By: balochii
Date Posted: 22-Jul-2010 at 13:58
And also pakistanis over all are much well built compared to an average indian, i guess mostly because of large meat consumption


Posted By: Vajra
Date Posted: 22-Jul-2010 at 14:12
Originally posted by balochii

Punjabies look similar to indian punjabies and north indians from delhi area, while sindhis and Rajahistani look similar, mohajirs only make like 9% of pakistani population and most of them are from the urdu speaking areas of north india, but all of these people above look different and are lighter skinned then indians from east india (bengal), central india and south india, which make up majority of indians and dont forget close to 30% of pakistan is iranic population who are fairskinned. So like i said overall pakistanis are lighter skinned then majority of indians, which includes all indians not just north indians.

Yet again about "skin color" to prove how "different" they are while vast majority are not even with their complexion, even the Iranic population of Pakistan like Balochi's for example. 

Originally posted by balochii

the balochi girl you are posting is a sidhi who are migrants from africa settled in pakistan, get your facts right

lol Alright, Its easier to find a dark skinned Balochi girl than the lighter one. 

Originally posted by balochii

And also pakistanis over all are much well built compared to an average indian, i guess mostly because of large meat consumption

LOL LOL



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Posted By: PakistaniShield
Date Posted: 22-Jul-2010 at 17:21
Originally posted by Vajra


but MOST Pakistanis however are not. like Punjabis and Sindhi's and Mohajirs and you cant tell difference between Indians and Pakistanis by their physical features VAST majority of them dont look different.

This video only demonstrates how picking and choosing each image to suit their political propaganda. [ Showing only lighter Pakistanis and how its society is more modern than their Indian Neighbors etc etc ] 

Its impossible to make out who is Pakistani and who is Indian. There is in a huge South Asian population in Jackson Height, Queens, NYC when you go there it's impossible to make out.

There is not "real" difference between Indians and Pakistanis. 

http://www.flickr.com/photos/rumana-husain/2500267050/ - http://www.flickr.com/photos/rumana-husain/2500267050/
[source - A charming Baloch Girl by Rumana Husain - Flickr] 

Would you say this girl looks Balochi or Tamil? LOL


West Punjabis are generally taller and fairer than their eastern counterparts. Remember there was a small exchange of populations between the two countries during independence, so it shouldn't be surprising if you found some "Pakistanis" who look indian.




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Posted By: PakistaniShield
Date Posted: 22-Jul-2010 at 17:22
Originally posted by balochii

the balochi girl you are posting is a sidhi who are migrants from africa settled in pakistan, get your facts right


oh they know. That was just done for a very obvious reason.


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Posted By: Vajra
Date Posted: 22-Jul-2010 at 17:56
 Do
Originally posted by PakistaniShield

 West Punjabis are generally taller and fairer than their eastern counterparts. Remember there was a small exchange of populations between the two countries during independence, so it shouldn't be surprising if you found some "Pakistanis" who look indian.

Oh God yet again, that is...less a scholarly field than a nationalistic, political propaganda movement on "Internet", aimed to increasing the self-esteem and confidence of oneself by pointing out those OBVIOUS small differences within the SAME population and making it as if it's a huge thing.

Just like your Propaganda website LOL


"We are a web based organistation working to reclaim Ancient Pakistans distinct identity and heritage. The Pakistani identity has been wrongfully hijacked by surrounding regions and countries - especially India, for nationlist purposes, An identity which belongs to people of Pakistan, not the people of India. 

Significant progress has been made in spreading awareness."


Smile do i need to say more?


Originally posted by PakistaniShield

 oh they know. That was just done for a very obvious reason. 

Really? Its not that hard to Google "Baloch people". LOL



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Posted By: balochii
Date Posted: 22-Jul-2010 at 20:15
^ baloch people are mixed to begin with. you can find baloch of any colour from dark as south indian to light as a pashtun. But over all pakistan as a whole has lighter skinned population compared to all of india, only an insane person would deny this, its comman geographical sense. india is east and south of Pakistan and is a warmer country then Pakistan, pakistan shares a border with Iran and Afghanistan, India doesn't etc...
 
you indians seem to be so jelous of all the people and history pakistan posses, too bad you can't even touch most of the cities of Indus valley civilization or Gandhara LOL its under our control


Posted By: Vajra
Date Posted: 22-Jul-2010 at 20:53
Originally posted by balochii

^ baloch people are mixed to begin with. you can find baloch of any colour from dark as south indian to light as a pashtun. 
 
 
That goes to almost ALL ethnic groups in the WORLD its not just limited to single group of people. Shocked 

Originally posted by balochii

But over all pakistan as a whole has lighter skinned population compared to all of india, only an insane person would deny this 

Yet again that goes to almost ALL ethnic groups in the WORLD its not just limited to single group of people, however vast majority Pakistanis complexion dont differ much than other South Asians.


Originally posted by balochii

its comman geographical sense. india is east and south of Pakistan and is a warmer country then Pakistan, pakistan shares a border with Iran and Afghanistan, India doesn't etc...

Yes it's mostly in Tribal areas but majority of the population of Pakistan are tied to South Asian culture and Heritage than the other group around their surrounding areas other than religion. 

Originally posted by balochii

you indians seem to be so jelous of all the people and history pakistan posses, too bad you can't even touch most of the cities of Indus valley civilization or Gandhara LOL its under our control

Thats pretty ridiculous how old are you? Indus Valley is South Asian heritage, It would be pretty laughable if you actually denied it and said it only belongs to Pakistanis because its in Pakistan.

If we were to go by that IGNORANT logic of yours then Gujarati people of India would have more claim to Pakistan since the founding father of Pakistan Muhammad Ali Jinnah a Gujarati Muslim and son of first generation convert in his family. Smile

 





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Posted By: balochii
Date Posted: 23-Jul-2010 at 08:40
^ it's south asian but its under pakistan's control that is what i am saying and indians cannot even touch it, its pakistan's people history more then anyone else
 


Posted By: Cryptic
Date Posted: 23-Jul-2010 at 12:02
 
Maybe a test like this can settle the debate.  Evidently, it is very difficult for Chinese, Japanese and Koreans to tell themselves apart.
 
http://digg.com/search?sort=newest&fltdigg=o50&s=site%3Aalllooksame.com - alllooksame.com
 
But...  There would probably be allegations that the sample Indians and Pakistanis were picked to rig the test towards a pre conceived out come. 
 


Posted By: Vajra
Date Posted: 23-Jul-2010 at 13:12
Originally posted by balochii

^ it's south asian but its under pakistan's control that is what i am saying and indians cannot even touch it, its pakistan's people history more then anyone else.
 

LOL Pakistan's history has been tied to other South Asian countries from from Indus valley civilization to Hinduism, Buddhism, Mughals and all the way to British Raj. 

That would same as Indians claiming Mughals as only Indias heritage just because famous mughal monuments are in India. 

"Nationalist ideologies frequently employ results of  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archaeology - archaeology  and  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_history - ancient history  as  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Propaganda - propaganda , often significantly distorting them to fit their aims..."

Originally posted by Cryptic

 
Maybe a test like this can settle the debate.  Evidently, it is very difficult for Chinese, Japanese and Koreans to tell themselves apart.
 
http://digg.com/search?sort=newest&fltdigg=o50&s=site%3Aalllooksame.com -
 
But...  There would probably be allegations that the sample Indians and Pakistanis were picked to rig the test towards a pre conceived out come. 
 

There has already been studies done on this subject. 


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Posted By: balochii
Date Posted: 23-Jul-2010 at 13:15
^ both indians and pakistanis are really broad terms though, compare the people of northern pakistan or even north india near Kashmir to south india for example, there is a huge difference in how people look, their cultures are completly different etc...
 
If you wana say they are brown people, yes i would agree to that, but pakistanis over all will be considered lighter brown then average indian brown. Its comman sense, just look at the map of the two countires and where they are situated, Pakistan is north west of india, so it is obvious people will be lighter skinned there because a bit cooler climate.
 


Posted By: balochii
Date Posted: 23-Jul-2010 at 13:17
Originally posted by Vajra

Originally posted by balochii

^ it's south asian but its under pakistan's control that is what i am saying and indians cannot even touch it, its pakistan's people history more then anyone else.
 

LOL Pakistan's history has been tied to other South Asian countries from from Indus valley civilization to Hinduism, Buddhism, Mughals and all the way to British Raj. 

That would same as Indians claiming Mughals as only Indias heritage just because famous mughal monuments are in India. 

"Nationalist ideologies frequently employ results of  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archaeology - archaeology  and  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_history - ancient history  as  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Propaganda - propaganda , often significantly distorting them to fit their aims..."

Originally posted by Cryptic

 
Maybe a test like this can settle the debate.  Evidently, it is very difficult for Chinese, Japanese and Koreans to tell themselves apart.
 
http://digg.com/search?sort=newest&fltdigg=o50&s=site%3Aalllooksame.com - alllooksame.com
 
But...  There would probably be allegations that the sample Indians and Pakistanis were picked to rig the test towards a pre conceived out come. 
 

There has already been studies done on this subject. 
 
what ever dude, my point remains. Indians can't touch any monuments in pakistan, espeically their nationalistic archaeologists


Posted By: Vajra
Date Posted: 23-Jul-2010 at 13:29
Originally posted by balochii

^ both indians and pakistanis are really broad terms though, compare the people of northern pakistan or even north india near Kashmir to south india for example, there is a huge difference in how people look, their cultures are completly different etc...
 
If you wana say they are brown people, yes i would agree to that, but pakistanis over all will be considered lighter brown then average indian brown. Its comman sense, just look at the map of the two countires and where they are situated, Pakistan is north west of india, so it is obvious people will be lighter skinned there because a bit cooler climate.
 

We already talked about this and the point is the video is biased, it's made to fit their political agenda in every possible way.   




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Posted By: balochii
Date Posted: 23-Jul-2010 at 16:17
^ ok forget the video, what i have said is true and it stands, for example even if you go to karachi today. Today almost half the city is made of pashtuns and pashtuns you know are much fairskinned compared to most indic population


Posted By: Vajra
Date Posted: 23-Jul-2010 at 18:58
Originally posted by balochii

^ ok forget the video, what i have said is true and it stands, for example even if you go to karachi today. Today almost half the city is made of pashtuns and pashtuns you know are much fairskinned compared to most indic population

So the Video is trying to portray that Pakistani is majority Pashtuns? LOL




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Posted By: balochii
Date Posted: 23-Jul-2010 at 19:08
^ pashtuns are the second largest majority in pakistan, there are 30 million+ pashtuns in pakistan. There are more pashtuns in pakistan then in afghanistan. Most of you indian think pakistan is only made of indic population which is not true at all. Like i said come to Karachi and you will see Pashtun outnumber anyone. roughly 6 million pashtuns live in Karachi
 
also i haven't seen the video and dont care for the video. i am speaking reality, doesn't matter if the video is fake or not


Posted By: PakistaniShield
Date Posted: 24-Jul-2010 at 04:45
Originally posted by Vajra


That goes to almost ALL ethnic groups in the WORLD its not just limited to single group of people. Shocked


Not really. I can't find a white Somali or a black Swede. It's just not possible.

Originally posted by vajra

however vast majority Pakistanis complexion dont differ much than other South Asians.


Some indians make south asian look like it's something more than a geographic location. 
LOL



Thats pretty ridiculous how old are you? Indus Valley is South Asian heritage, It would be pretty laughable if you actually denied it and said it only belongs to Pakistanis because its in Pakistan.


Nah indians don't believe that either. All this "South Asian" is just for political ambitions. Ancient Egyptian Civilization is Egyptian heritage not African.


If we were to go by that IGNORANT logic of yours then Gujarati people of India would have more claim to Pakistan since the founding father of Pakistan Muhammad Ali Jinnah a Gujarati Muslim and son of first generation convert in his family. Smile


Bad comparison. Since Jinnah was obviously of mixed ancestry from his appearance. Kemal Attaturk the founder of modern Turkey was of European descent, it doesn't make European people the same as Turks, they are two very different peoples.





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Posted By: PakistaniShield
Date Posted: 24-Jul-2010 at 04:49
Originally posted by balochii

^ pashtuns are the second largest majority in pakistan, there are 30 million+ pashtuns in pakistan. There are more pashtuns in pakistan then in afghanistan. Most of you indian think pakistan is only made of indic population which is not true at all. Like i said come to Karachi and you will see Pashtun outnumber anyone. roughly 6 million pashtuns live in Karachi
 
also i haven't seen the video and dont care for the video. i am speaking reality, doesn't matter if the video is fake or not


You have to understand Indo-Aryan peoples are a linguistic group, not a "race"

Infact Indo-Aryans of Pakistan seem to be closer to Iranic peoples than to Indians who are mostly of Australian aborigine stock.

And also I know most Baloch are brown, but not as dark as Indians as your wrote. I know Brahui people are similar to Indians in appearance as they indeed might be Indians.  But not the Baloch


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Posted By: balochii
Date Posted: 24-Jul-2010 at 07:44
^ real baloch are not dark, they are very similar to pashtuns, however Baluchistan has been settled by a lot of people like brahui, sidhis, makranis etc.. and most of them have adopted our culture. language, traditions


Posted By: balochii
Date Posted: 24-Jul-2010 at 07:50
Originally posted by PakistaniShield

Originally posted by balochii

^ pashtuns are the second largest majority in pakistan, there are 30 million+ pashtuns in pakistan. There are more pashtuns in pakistan then in afghanistan. Most of you indian think pakistan is only made of indic population which is not true at all. Like i said come to Karachi and you will see Pashtun outnumber anyone. roughly 6 million pashtuns live in Karachi
 
also i haven't seen the video and dont care for the video. i am speaking reality, doesn't matter if the video is fake or not


You have to understand Indo-Aryan peoples are a linguistic group, not a "race"

Infact Indo-Aryans of Pakistan seem to be closer to Iranic peoples than to Indians who are mostly of Australian aborigine stock.

And also I know most Baloch are brown, but not as dark as Indians as your wrote. I know Brahui people are similar to Indians in appearance as they indeed might be Indians.  But not the Baloch
 
yup one thing you will notice is that pakistanis are a lot (straight) face then indians, thats a iranic feature i believe, even the many darker pakistanis are like that.
 
While many indians, especially from the east/central/south areas dont have straight faces at all
 
like you hardly ever find a pakistani who looks like this for example, not colour but i am talking about face shape wise, that nose feature you will probably never find in pakistanis but many indians you will:
 


Posted By: Vajra
Date Posted: 24-Jul-2010 at 10:25
Originally posted by PakistaniShield

 Some indians make south asian look like it's something more than a geographic location.LOL 

Geographic location is the reason we share the same history & culture. LOL

Originally posted by PakistaniShield

Nah indians don't believe that either. All this "South Asian" is just for political ambitions. Ancient Egyptian Civilization is Egyptian heritage not African.

There is no political ambition in that since most of South Asia share the same history and culture unlike rest of the Africa and North Africans..but then again you are a nationalist you cant get past your delusional nationalist ideas, like your website. LOL

It does no one any good to believe in lies. 

If we were to go by that IGNORANT logic of yours then Gujarati people of India would have more claim to Pakistan since the founding father of Pakistan Muhammad Ali Jinnah a Gujarati Muslim and son of first generation convert in his family. Smile


Originally posted by PakistaniShield

Bad comparison. Since Jinnah was obviously of mixed ancestry from his appearance. Kemal Attaturk the founder of modern Turkey was of European descent, it doesn't make European people the same as Turks, they are two very different peoples.

I was behing sarcastic about that statement if you dint notice & you are claiming Jinnah to be of mixed ancestry? oh great. 

Originally posted by PakistaniShield

 Infact Indo-Aryans of Pakistan seem to be closer to Iranic peoples than to Indians who are mostly of Australian aborigine stock.

LOL

Yet again even you know that it's not true. 


Originally posted by PakistaniShield

 And also I know most Baloch are brown, but not as dark as Indians as your wrote. I know Brahui people are similar to Indians in appearance as they indeed might be Indians.  But not the Baloch .

LOL Yet again....denial.

Originally posted by balochii

 yup one thing you will notice is that pakistanis are a lot (straight) face then indians, thats a iranic feature i believe, even the many darker pakistanis are like that.
 
While many indians, especially from the east/central/south areas dont have straight faces at all
 
like you hardly ever find a pakistani who looks like this for example, not colour but i am talking about face shape wise, that nose feature you will probably never find in pakistanis but many indians you will 

Really? I can post images now to prove you wrong but then again you would still disagree with me on that topic because you are made to believe that. 




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Posted By: balochii
Date Posted: 24-Jul-2010 at 11:44
The darkest of pakistanis are sindhis, yet look at their faces, clearly they look of the indo-aryan stock 
 
no i am not denying there could some mohajirs who migrated from india who might look like that, but overall mohajirs only make 8-9% of the population and most of them migrated from north india 
 
 


Posted By: Cryptic
Date Posted: 24-Jul-2010 at 20:09
Originally posted by PakistaniShield

[QUOTE=balochii]
Infact Indo-Aryans of Pakistan seem to be closer to Iranic peoples than to Indians who are mostly of Australian aborigine stock.
 
Most Indians are not Australoids, nor do they have Australoid features.  Though Indian Australoids may number in the millions, this needs to be compared to the over all Indian population of a billion (+) people.  There are also remnant Australoid populations in Pakistan and Yemen.
 
Australoids are small in numbers and are a very ancient people.  Their presence in India and Pakistan pre dates all concepts of Aryan migrations, Vedic religion(s), Hinduism, Indus Valley civilization, Islam etc.


Posted By: balochii
Date Posted: 24-Jul-2010 at 20:53
^ thats true that pure Australoids are small in number, however the guy i posted for example is definatly mixed with Australoids or has some trace of Australoids in him, you can find a lot of southern indians who look like him. Recent genetic testing has proven the eastern/central and southern India is mixed with the orginal population that moved there some 60000-80000 years ago, they most likely looked like Australoids of australia of today, even tribal south indians look like Australoids.
 
 


Posted By: Cryptic
Date Posted: 24-Jul-2010 at 21:33
Originally posted by balochii

^ thats true that pure Australoids are small in number, however the guy i posted for example is definatly mixed with Australoids or has some trace of Australoids in him, you can find a lot of southern indians who look like him. Recent genetic testing has proven the eastern/central and southern India is mixed with the orginal population that moved there some 60000-80000 years ago, they most likely looked like Australoids of australia of today, even tribal south indians look like Australoids.  
 
As a side note, there is also a relatively large number of Australoids in Sri Lanka.  I have seen wildly different estimates for the number of Indian Australoids.   As you mentioned the range of these estimates is probalby due to whether one only counts pure Australoids or includes people or tribal groups with varying degrees of Australoid features. Even counting partial Australoids, however, Australoid features are a minority in India 
 
 
Originally posted by balochii

and southern India is mixed with the orginal population that moved there some 60000-80000 years ago, they most likely looked like Australoids of australia of today, even tribal south indians look like Australoids.  
I agree about South Indian tribal peoples.  One thing though, Australoid features seem to be rare with Tamils.  That might indicate that they are a relatively recent arrival in south India.   
 
I wonder why the Indian Australoid population (both full and partial) is far greater than the Yemeni, Arabian, Pakistani and Indonesian Australoid population. Australoids inhabited all these areas in their migration to Australia.  


Posted By: balochii
Date Posted: 24-Jul-2010 at 22:35
^ do you mean tamils or sinhalese in sri lanka? sinhalese claim to be recent migrants and if you look at them many of them indeed look different from other people there.


Posted By: PakistaniShield
Date Posted: 25-Jul-2010 at 04:56
Here is a better detailed video explaining the differences. Even though haplogroup maps and ethnic demographics are more than enough to prove the two countries are entirely different, this video is still useful.  Balochii I really think you too should watch this:
[TUBE]HIvqN8pA57A[/TUBE]

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http://pakhub.info">


Posted By: PakistaniShield
Date Posted: 25-Jul-2010 at 04:59
Originally posted by balochii

The darkest of pakistanis are sindhis, yet look at their faces, clearly they look of the indo-aryan stock 
 
no i am not denying there could some mohajirs who migrated from india who might look like that, but overall mohajirs only make 8-9% of the population and most of them migrated from north india 
 
 


I think the darkest Pakistanis are Bravis, that is if you would count them as Pakistanis.


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http://pakhub.info">


Posted By: Cryptic
Date Posted: 25-Jul-2010 at 05:46
Originally posted by balochii

^ do you mean tamils or sinhalese in sri lanka? sinhalese claim to be recent migrants and if you look at them many of them indeed look different from other people there.
Tamils in Sril Lanka and South India.  I think they are a Dravidian people but unlike other South Indians,  Tamils do not seem to either be Australoids or have Australoid features.   


Posted By: ranjithvnambiar
Date Posted: 29-Jul-2010 at 04:12
Adivasi populations of East and south India are having great similarity to austroloid people and many scheduled tribes of East India still speaks austronesian languages.
Negritos in India are mainly in Andaman and Nicobar islands(Andamanese & Nicobarese)They have austronesian people too.
dravidian like aryan as per my understanding is not a term used to indicate a race.
Dravidian is a term used to indicate people who speak the languages rthat originated in South India or basically from Tamil.
The origin of the word Dravidian is from 'dravida' a sanskrit word.
The word 'tamila' corrupted into 'dramila' and then 'dravida'.

Some people use the word dravidian in a racial sense to indicate dark skinned people.But dark skinned people are available all over India.And their features too are similar.Ansd are genetically very close to their white skinned counter parts.
Attached is the photo of Shashi Tharoor who was a Undsr Secretary at United Nations for communications and Public Information. Presently he is amember of Indian Parliament representing  the southern most district of the Southernmost state of India ie kerala.He is a Keralite belonging to nair Community and is a "Dravidian".His mother tongue is malayalam a dravidian language.

Attached is the photograph of Mammootty(Munhammed Kutty) an actor from Kerala.He is a Malayali Muslim(Moplah Muslim) of Kerala and dravidian ie his mother tongue is malayalam.

Attached here is the photograph of K.G.Balakrishnan who was the Supreme Court Chief Justice of India.He too belong to Kerala and also to a backward caste of kerala.He too is a dravidian ie malayalam is his mother tongue.

Attached is the photo of Shivshankar menon the National security advisor to Prime ministerof India.
He belongs to the menon(nair) community of Kerala south India.He too is adravidian ie mothertongue is malayalam.

Attached is the photo opf Vijay Nambiar , who is an Indian Diplomat in UN and was the Chief of Staff under UN secretary General Ban ki Moon.He holds the rank of Under Secretary General and is a senior staff of UN.He belongs to the Nambiar(Nair) Community of Kerala and is a Dravidian ie malayalam is his mother tongue.

Attached is the Photo of Dr.A.P.J.Abdul Kalam & R.Venkataraman. Both fromer Presidents of India and belong to Tamilnadu a south Indian state they both are dravidians ie Tamil is their mother tongue.Venkataraman is a brahmin and belong to iyer caste of South Indian Brahmins & kalam is a South Indian Muslim.

Attached is the photo of E.M.S.Namboothiripad former Chief minister of Kerala.He belongs to the Nambudiri Brahmin community of Kerala.He is a dravidian ie malayalam is his mother tongue.
genetically all these people are very close to each other but skin colour may vary, but even their features are similar irrespective of their castes.


Posted By: Cryptic
Date Posted: 29-Jul-2010 at 08:25
Originally posted by ranjithvnambiar

Negritos in India are mainly in Andaman and Nicobar islands(Andamanese & Nicobarese)They have austronesian people too.
dravidian like aryan as per my understanding is not a term used to indicate a race.
Dravidian is a term used to indicate people who speak the languages rthat originated in South India or basically from Tamil.
 Thank you for the clarification regarding Dravidian being a language family and not an ethnic group.  I think, however, that the indigenous people on the Nicobar Islands are an isolated Asiatic (Mongoloid) people and are not Negritos like the Addaman Islanders.
 
As a side note, I think one of the Indian mega billionaires may have some Australoid features.  Is he from a south Indian as well?


Posted By: ranjithvnambiar
Date Posted: 29-Jul-2010 at 08:59
Firstly I dont recollect South India having any mega billionaires
If you are speaking about Ambani then He is a Gujarati and belongs to Junagadh.
The Bhotto family belonged to Junagadh province of Gujarat.
In fact they were Nawabs of Junagadh and after Junagadh was annexed to India they migrated to Pakistan.Muhammed Ali Jinnah's family hails from Kutch or Kathiawar which is just north to Junagadh(say 50km).Ambani is having a dark complexion but he doesnt looklike having austroloid features
And If you are Speaking about Mittals Then They belong to Haryana a north Indian state close to Punjab.Mittals too doesnt seem to have the austroloid features.

Ya i was wrong to mention Andamanese & Nicobarese together, Nicobarese are Austronesians.And both groups as per my understanding migrated to their respective habitats from Africa.So calling one of them as indigineous doesnt make sense to me.


Posted By: Cryptic
Date Posted: 29-Jul-2010 at 09:09
Originally posted by ranjithvnambiar

.Mittals too doesnt seem to have the austroloid features.
What about the global steel mogul ( think he lives in Switzerland), or have you already mentioned him?  
Originally posted by ranjithvnambiar

Ya i was wrong to mention Andamanese & Nicobarese together, Nicobarese are Austronesians.And both groups as per my understanding migrated to their respective habitats from Africa.So calling one of them as indigineous doesnt make sense to me.
Yes, both groups are clearly indigenous.  I was just pointing out that the Addamanese and the Nicobarese belong to two different racial groups.


Posted By: ranjithvnambiar
Date Posted: 29-Jul-2010 at 09:11
These photos that I have attached above,I dont think that even one of them is bearing austroloid features.Austroloids of India mainly belongs to the tribal areas.And majority of the scheduled tribes are in the states of Madhya Pradesh,Chattisgadh,Jharkhand,Bihar & Orissa.People with mongoloid as well as austronesian features you can find in Assam,Meghalaya,Manipur,Mizoram & Tripura.


Posted By: Sander
Date Posted: 01-Aug-2010 at 14:05
Originally posted by ranjithvnambiar

......

Ya i was wrong to mention Andamanese & Nicobarese together, Nicobarese are Austronesians.And both groups as per my understanding migrated to their respective habitats from Africa.So calling one of them as indigineous doesnt make sense to me.
 
 
No. Nicobarese is officially classified as Austro-Asiatic ( Mon-Khmer division) , see below link.  Austronesian is another family.
 
 
http://www.ethnologue.com/show_lang_family.asp?code=ncb - http://www.ethnologue.com/show_lang_family.asp?code=ncb http://www.ethnologue.com/show_lang_family.asp?code=ncb -


Posted By: pakistanpride
Date Posted: 08-Jun-2012 at 16:27
Maaaaan Balochi u are so dillusional!! I am a pakistani from islamabad. I feel like you honestly need to go back to school or something because ypur arguements dont make sense at all.
These ancient cities like Mohenjo Daro and the Harrappa civilisation existed waaaaaayyyyy before the founding of our country and even India so to say that it is only pakistani culture is moronic and stupid of you. These people migrated to various regions all over south asia.

And as for skin colour, seriously dude go open a genetics book or something coz u clearly dont know what your talking about. I have fair skin and green eyes while my mother ( who btw is my biological mother) has darker skin and brown eyes and my father has slightly fairer skin and brown eyes. What now are u gna say that they are not pakistani just coz they are darker??

There are so many dark pakistanis and so many fair indians. Its a 50 50 deal bro. just how some europeans are darker than others.

Frankly i suggest that u go educate yourself before u argue with people and pls for heavens sake your giving the rest of us pakistanis a bad name. 

And stop hating on indians coz im pretty sure your ancesters are indian. YOUR THE ONE WHO SOUNDS JEALOUS OF THEM


Posted By: PakistaniShield
Date Posted: 08-Jun-2012 at 17:24
Originally posted by pakistanpride

Maaaaan Balochi u are so dillusional!! I am a pakistani from islamabad. I feel like you honestly need to go back to school or something because ypur arguements dont make sense at all.
These ancient cities like Mohenjo Daro and the Harrappa civilisation existed waaaaaayyyyy before the founding of our country and even India so to say that it is only pakistani culture is moronic and stupid of you. These people migrated to various regions all over south asia.

And as for skin colour, seriously dude go open a genetics book or something coz u clearly dont know what your talking about. I have fair skin and green eyes while my mother ( who btw is my biological mother) has darker skin and brown eyes and my father has slightly fairer skin and brown eyes. What now are u gna say that they are not pakistani just coz they are darker??

There are so many dark pakistanis and so many fair indians. Its a 50 50 deal bro. just how some europeans are darker than others.

Frankly i suggest that u go educate yourself before u argue with people and pls for heavens sake your giving the rest of us pakistanis a bad name. 

And stop hating on indians coz im pretty sure your ancesters are indian. YOUR THE ONE WHO SOUNDS JEALOUS OF THEM


I seriously doubt you're a Pakistani. You have only one post and it's so defensive of Indians. I'm pretty sure this is an indian impersonating as a Pakistani. Could also be a muhajir.


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Posted By: Nick1986
Date Posted: 08-Jun-2012 at 21:00
Whoever he is, he's very disrespectful. If he wants to attack Pakistanishield he'd better come up with some convincing evidence

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Me Grimlock not nice Dino! Me bash brains!


Posted By: pakistanpride
Date Posted: 09-Jun-2012 at 04:34
Wow pakistanshield would you like to check my birth records or that of my parents to be completely sure of my ethnicity or would u rather do a DNA test to check???

ive been brought up in Toronto, Canada and quite frankly my family still keeps in touch with our culture and relgion. My best friend is an Indian and honeslty when I met him i though he was pakistani. 

Honestly you clamin to promote pakistani pride yet your discriminating between us? Thats very smart on your part :/

U seem to have something against Mohajirs! Who are just as much a part of our country as the rest of us.

You may want to change your user name now!


Posted By: pakistanpride
Date Posted: 09-Jun-2012 at 04:38
and honestly where it comes to defending indians? So what?? Ur the one who seems to be attacking them! I dont want them all to think that the rest of us pakistanis are indian haters like u!


Posted By: PakistaniShield
Date Posted: 09-Jun-2012 at 18:17
I'm not even going to bother replying to this. Not worth my attention.

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http://pakhub.info">


Posted By: Nick1986
Date Posted: 09-Jun-2012 at 20:20
Originally posted by pakistanpride

Wow pakistanshield would you like to check my birth records or that of my parents to be completely sure of my ethnicity or would u rather do a DNA test to check???

ive been brought up in Toronto, Canada and quite frankly my family still keeps in touch with our culture and relgion. My best friend is an Indian and honeslty when I met him i though he was pakistani. 

Honestly you clamin to promote pakistani pride yet your discriminating between us? Thats very smart on your part :/

U seem to have something against Mohajirs! Who are just as much a part of our country as the rest of us.

You may want to change your user name now!

Pakistanpride, unless you tone down the rudeness, we'll be forced to take corrective action. Trolls don't last long here


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Me Grimlock not nice Dino! Me bash brains!


Posted By: PakistaniShield
Date Posted: 10-Jun-2012 at 01:08
Do whatever you feel is necessary Nick1986. I've got no objections. Thank you

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http://pakhub.info">


Posted By: red clay
Date Posted: 14-Jun-2012 at 10:28
At first I thought this might be someone from the "other site".  It is vaguely familiar in style to Sparten, except that Sparten lives in Islamabad and this person has an ip from Dubais.
 
Regardless, tone it down or............       
 
This is the type of posting we don't need.
 
 


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"Arguing with someone who hates you or your ideas, is like playing chess with a pigeon. No matter what move you make, your opponent will walk all over the board and scramble the pieces".
Unknown.


Posted By: Nick1986
Date Posted: 10-Oct-2012 at 07:38
The Pakistanis i know have lighter skin than Indians and look more like Arabs than Asians. Some even have fair hair

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Me Grimlock not nice Dino! Me bash brains!


Posted By: PakistaniShield
Date Posted: 10-Oct-2012 at 18:00
Originally posted by Nick1986

The Pakistanis i know have lighter skin than Indians and look more like Arabs than Asians. Some even have fair hair


it depends. Some Pakistanis look like Arabs others not. 'Asian" is collectively a geographic term. This is why Pakistanis are different from Indians, because while the geography is same, the history and culture is different.

it's much like Turkey and Europe. While geographically in Europe, Turkey's modern people are very distinct from Europeans.


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http://pakhub.info">


Posted By: Nick1986
Date Posted: 12-Oct-2012 at 07:53
Could the difference be due to intermarriage with Muslim colonists? Once an area converts to Islam, the people tend to only marry other Muslims

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Me Grimlock not nice Dino! Me bash brains!


Posted By: PakistaniShield
Date Posted: 12-Oct-2012 at 23:34
Originally posted by Nick1986

Could the difference be due to intermarriage with Muslim colonists? Once an area converts to Islam, the people tend to only marry other Muslims


I used to think that until haplogroup maps showed me otherwise. Arab genetic influence is very low in Pakistan and limited to the southern areas.


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http://pakhub.info">


Posted By: Nick1986
Date Posted: 14-Oct-2012 at 08:28
What about Persians from Iran? It would explain the fair skin of many Afghans and Pakistanis

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Me Grimlock not nice Dino! Me bash brains!



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