Avestan Directions
Printed From: History Community ~ All Empires
Category: Regional History or Period History
Forum Name: Ancient Mesopotamia, Near East and Greater Iran
Forum Discription: Babylon, Egypt, Persia and other civilizations of the Near East from ancient times to 600s AD
URL: http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=28105
Printed Date: 28-Apr-2024 at 13:21
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Topic: Avestan Directions
Posted By: Cyrus Shahmiri
Subject: Avestan Directions
Date Posted: 29-Jan-2010 at 01:50
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Paurva = Forward & South (Purva in Sanskrit means "forward, east") Avestan Dictionary: http://www.avesta.org/avdict/avdict.htm - http://www.avesta.org/avdict/avdict.htm
What is your conclusion? I think it gives a clue:
http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?search=yemen&searchmode=none - http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?search=yemen&searchmode=none
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Replies:
Posted By: Cyrus Shahmiri
Date Posted: 29-Jan-2010 at 11:50
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About the first one, Diakonov in "On the Original Home of the Speakers of Indo-European" says "Avestan paurva means "forward, south", while Sanskrit purva means "forward, east", because the Proto-Iranians migrated to the south while the Proto-Indians migrated to the east."
What about Germanic east and Latin auster (south), does it also mean the Latin-speaking people migrated to the south and Proto-Germanic people migrated to the east?!
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Posted By: Cyrus Shahmiri
Date Posted: 29-Jan-2010 at 12:32
Maybe it was something like this:
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Posted By: Cyrus Shahmiri
Date Posted: 30-Jan-2010 at 05:06
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In the Middle Persian language, almost the same Avestan words with a prefix were used except for the south, Xawrusa (xawr=sun + usa=upward) meant "east", Xorasan (Khorasan) is the land of the east, Xawrava (xawr=sun + ava=downward) meant "west", the modern Persian word for "west" is Xavar (Khavar), however it can also mean "east", like "Khavar-mianeh" (Middle East), the same Avestan word Apaxtar was used for "north", in the modern Persian this is Bakhtar, of course it also can mean "east" in some sources, maybe because Bakhtar (Bactria) was in the east and also "west" in the several other sources, the former name of Kermanshah province in the west of Iran was Bakhtaran!!
But the Middle Persian word for "south" was Nimruz which means "mid-day, noon", this name clearly relates to the sun, like the words for east and west. -------------
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Posted By: Kanas_Krumesis
Date Posted: 30-Jan-2010 at 12:57
Yes, there are two hypothesis about direction of Proto-Indian migration into India. First-from Beludjistan (and from Iranian plateau) and second from Karakorum and Central Asia. First one is much more acceptable. Aryan king of the gods Indra was also a supreme deity in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitanni - Mitanni - anciant state situated in modern Northern Iraq and South-East Turkey. Portrait of Indra in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rig_Veda - Rig Veda is very interesting:
"At the swift draught the Soma-drinker waxed in might, the Iron One with yellow beard and yellow hair." The Rig Veda/Mandala 10/Hymn 96
"Fair cheeks hath Indra, Maghavan, the Victor, Lord of a great host, Stormer, strong in action. What once thou didst in might when mortals vexed thee, where now, O Bull, are those thy hero exploits?" (RigVeda, Book 3, Hymn XXX: Griffith)
Indra is a sky God and holder of the thunderbolts, similar to another Indo-Europeans supreme Gods like Thor (Germanic), Perun (Slavic), Zeus/Jupiter (Greek/Roman), Perkele (Baltic)... Indra lives in Svarga (Heaven) in the clouds around Mount Meru. Svarga is also name for Heaven to ancient Slavs. Indra is a God of warriors and military power. It corresponds with mighty military society of the Aryans. Polish author Zenon Kosidowski consider that Indra was an image of the Aryan invaders-fair skin and hair, heavy built body, both arrogance and bravery and frailty to good meal, vine, alcohol and traditional Proto Indo-European narcotic drink-Soma. Names of Indra (the God), river Indus and India (the country) have equal root. According Avesta, evil demon http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Verethragna - Verethragna have similar status with Indra. May be Verethragna is a memory from ancient supreme deity of Proto Iranians. Avesta is a Zoroastrian holy book and reformer Zarathushtra have a goal to put away ancient religion. Christians also used this kind of method against pagan deity-to accuse bad ait.
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Posted By: Cyrus Shahmiri
Date Posted: 31-Jan-2010 at 00:25
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There were certainly some migrations from Iran to India, it is said the oldest Indus inscription has been discovered from an impression of a sherd at Tepe Yahya, period IV A (2200 BC), in Kerman province in the south of Iran, of course Indus (Harappan) civilization was not the same as Indian, as an Indo-European civilization, I believe proto-Iranians and proto-Indians lived far from modern Iran and India. -------------
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Posted By: Messopotamian
Date Posted: 08-Feb-2010 at 08:45
| Mittanis direct ancestor of Kurds.Avesta talking about Kurds? |
Posted By: ranjithvnambiar
Date Posted: 11-Mar-2010 at 05:08
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Latest Archaeological Excavations in the banks of the Rigvedic Saraswati River(Gaggar Hakkra River) of west Rajastan which dried out during 1900 BC has exposed Fire Altars made by cooked bricks dating back to 2700BC(Archaeological site of Kalibangan of West Rajasthan & Lothal of Sabarmati Delta Gujarat).Construction of Sacrificial fire Altar and Fire worship is purely a Rigvedic Practice.These proofs are positively indicating the presence of Rigvedic Aryans in the banks of Saraswati and Sabarmati Delta during 2700BC.Where as many scholars argue that the fire worship was introduced in India/Indus Valley only after the Aryan Hordes came to the Indus valley duriing 1500BC. Archaeological Excavations at Surkotada Gujarat & Lothal has Exposed Horse bones and Teeth(of Equus Caballus Lynn) and these dated back to 2800-2900BC.This indicates that the inhabitants of both Lothal & Surkotada were familiar with modern horses which according to many scholars were brought to India by invading hordes of Aryans in 1500BC. Archaeological proofs doesnot support any large scale migration towards India/Indus-Saraswati valley from300BC to 100AD.Also it provides proof for the presence of Aryan Fire worship and also usage of Horses in Indus-Saraswati.Surkotada and Lothal are considered as part of Indus valley & Kalibangan is a Pre-Harappan site on the banks of the Saraswati.
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Posted By: ranjithvnambiar
Date Posted: 11-Mar-2010 at 20:23
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Posted By: ranjithvnambiar
Date Posted: 11-Mar-2010 at 20:27
| Purva in Sanskrit means East And Paschima West. |
Posted By: opuslola
Date Posted: 12-Mar-2010 at 19:57
You just might as well have written "purim" and Paschal?" ------------- http://www.quotationspage.com/subjects/history/ |
Posted By: ranjithvnambiar
Date Posted: 12-Mar-2010 at 23:22
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Latest Archaeological Excavations in the banks of the Rigvedic Saraswati River(Gaggar Hakkra River) of west Rajastan which dried out during 1900 BC has exposed Fire Altars made by cooked bricks dating back to 2700BC(Archaeological site of Kalibangan of West Rajasthan & Lothal of Sabarmati Delta Gujarat).Construction of Sacrificial fire Altar and Fire worship is purely a Rigvedic Practice.These proofs are positively indicating the presence of Rigvedic Aryans in the banks of Saraswati and Sabarmati Delta during 2700BC which is far older than the peak time of the Mitanni empire ie 1600-1500BC.Where as many scholars argue that the fire worship was introduced in India/Indus Valley only after the Aryan Hordes came to the Indus valley duriing 1500BC. Archaeological Excavations at Surkotada Gujarat & Lothal has Exposed Horse bones and Teeth(of Equus Caballus Lynn) and these dated back to 2800-2900BC.This indicates that the inhabitants of both Lothal & Surkotada were familiar with modern horses which according to many scholars were brought to India by invading hordes of Aryans in 1500BC. Archaeological proofs doesnot support any large scale migration towards India/Indus-Saraswati valley from3000BC to 100AD.This also is against the Indo-Aryan migration hypothesis.This doesnt support the claim that Indo Aryan groups from Mitanni & other areas came and settled in India during 1500BC. Also it provides proof for the presence of Aryan Fire worship and also usage of Horses in Indus-Saraswati.Surkotada and Lothal are considered as part of Indus valley & Kalibangan is a Pre-Harappan site on the banks of the Saraswati. Recent excavations have unearthed several Harappan/Saraswati and similar archaeological sites from Baluchistan till Krishna -Godavari basins of South India.There are several pre-historic sites similar to harappan & Saraswati in Haryana,Rajastan,Gujarat,Maharashtra ,Karnataka & Andhra Pradesh States of India. And at the peak of the civilization they might have had atleast15-20 million people on the banks of all these rivers. It is really illogical to believe that some invading/migrating hordes of newcomers that also numbering only thousands came and taught Sanskrit to the whole population(20 million) and also taught them to follow fire rituals and eventually made them write Rigveda and other three vedas,Brahmanams,samhita,Aranyakas,Niruktas,Upanishads,Puranas,Gruhyasutras,Srouta sutras & pratisakhyas of the vedas(A total of more than 17500+ Sanskrit textbooks,and apart from this the Brighu Samhita,Parashara Hora Sutra and thousands of other text books). Apart from this it is well known to Historians that the vedic sanskrit came to an end by 600Bc and gave way to classical sanskrit.And during 400BC Panini gave a proper grammatical form for the Classical sanskrit.So these vedic & Upanishadic textbooks were composed much before 600BC.Atharva Veda is the only Veda that speaks about iron and it is dated by historians back to 1200BC the early iron age.Rig is still older depicting bronze age ie before 2300BC,Not sure when it was written down first. |
Posted By: ranjithvnambiar
Date Posted: 12-Mar-2010 at 23:28
Archaeological Excavations at Surkotada
Gujarat & Lothal has Exposed Horse bones and Teeth(of Equus Caballus Lynn)
and these dated back to 2800-2900BC.This indicates that the inhabitants of both
Lothal & Surkotada were familiar with modern horses which according to many
scholars were brought to India by invading hordes of Aryans in 1500BC. Archaeological proofs doesnot support any
large scale migration towards India/Indus-Saraswati valley from3000BC to
100AD.This also is against the Indo-Aryan migration hypothesis.This doesnt
support the claim that Indo Aryan groups from Mitanni & other areas came
and settled in India during 1500BC. Also it provides proof for the presence of
Aryan Fire worship and also usage of Horses in Indus-Saraswati.Surkotada and
Lothal are considered as part of Indus valley & Kalibangan is a
Pre-Harappan site on the banks of the Saraswati. Recent excavations have unearthed several
Harappan/Saraswati and similar archaeological sites from Baluchistan till
Krishna -Godavari basins of South India.There are several pre-historic sites
similar to harappan & Saraswati in Haryana,Rajastan,Gujarat,Maharashtra
,Karnataka & Andhra Pradesh States of India. And at the peak of the civilization they might
have had atleast15-20 million people on the banks of all these rivers. It is really illogical to believe that some
invading/migrating hordes of newcomers that also numbering only thousands came
and taught Sanskrit to the whole population(20 million) and also taught them to
follow fire rituals and eventually made them write Rigveda and other three
vedas,Brahmanams,samhita,Aranyakas,Niruktas,Upanishads,Puranas,Gruhyasutras,Srouta
sutras & pratisakhyas of the vedas(A total of more than 17500+ Sanskrit
textbooks,and apart from this the Brighu Samhita,Parashara Hora Sutra and
thousands of other text books). Apart from this it is well known to Historians
that the vedic sanskrit came to an end by 600Bc and gave way to classical
sanskrit.And during 400BC Panini gave a proper grammatical form for the
Classical sanskrit.So these vedic & Upanishadic textbooks were
composed much before 600BC.Atharva Veda is the only Veda that speaks
about iron and it is dated by historians back to 1200BC the early iron
age.Rig is still older depicting bronze age ie before 2300BC,Not sure when it
was written down first. Latest Archaeological Excavations in the banks of the Rigvedic Saraswati River(Gaggar Hakkra River) of west Rajastan which dried out during 1900 BC has exposed Fire Altars made by cooked bricks dating back to 2700BC(Archaeological site of Kalibangan of West Rajasthan & Lothal of Sabarmati Delta Gujarat).Construction of Sacrificial fire Altar and Fire worship is purely a Rigvedic Practice.These proofs are positively indicating the presence of Rigvedic Aryans in the banks of Saraswati and Sabarmati Delta during 2700BC which is far older than the peak time of the Mitanni empire ie 1600-1500BC.Where as many scholars argue that the fire worship was introduced in India/Indus Valley only after the Aryan Hordes came to the Indus valley duriing 1500BC. |
Posted By: Cyrus Shahmiri
Date Posted: 13-Mar-2010 at 02:24
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I don't think that you want to say India is the original homeland of Indo-European peoples, the fact is that a branch of Indo-European people migrated there and Indian culture was formed, but you have focused on the dates and I also think that 1500 BC can be wrong, the Mittani were not even an Indo-European people and there was just an Indian/Iranian cultural influence on Mittani culture, so it is certainly wrong to say "Indo Aryan groups from Mitanni & other areas came and settled in India during 1500BC" -------------
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Posted By: Shield-of-Dardania
Date Posted: 31-Mar-2010 at 02:20
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Let me get this right. Cyr is saying that some IE people travelled to the Indian region at some point in time, or rather several points in time, from somewhere else. While Ranj mentioned 'Rigvedic Aryans', but in a way that suggested that they were IE people native to the Indian region. Am I right? I'm enjoying this discussion. Keep it up guys. As long as it's kept in the spirit of friendly debate, it's good. That's how we all learn and progress, isn't it?. Anyway, I'm neutral on this. Interested but neutral.
My own native language is Malay. It's part-descended from Sanskrit, as are nearly all of the other modern South East Asian languages, like Burmese, Thai and Khmer (Cambodian), the region having been a part of the Hindic cultural sphere for a very long period in ancient times. I would say our current lexicon is easily 60% of ultimately Sanskrit origin, maybe more, the remaining major contributors having been Persian, Arabic, Pali, Tamil and maybe a little Chinese. Besides our own indigenous sources.
As a matter of interest, we have a word 'purba' in Malay, which I believe could have come from either the Avestan 'paurva' or the Sanskrit 'purva', but we use it to mean 'ancient' in our language. While our word 'bawah', meaning 'below', suggests a link with the Avestan 'ava'.
@Kanas:
So, heaven was 'svarga' in Slavic? That's really unbelievable.
We also still use 'syurga' (pronounced 'shurga') for heaven/paradise, which probably came from the Sanskrit 'svarga', either directly from it, or perhaps via the Tamil 'chorgo'. I never thought Malay would share a word of common ancestry with Slavic. Today I know better. Wow! I think that's really fantastic.
Now, if I recall correctly, in one Hindic language (Sanskrit?), the word 'la' could also mean 'kingdom' or 'country' or 'land', as in Vanga La (Vanga Kingdom/Country/Land), Singha La (Lion Kingdom/Country/Land). Which could mean that one could have used 'Svarga La' to mean 'Kingdom of Heaven'.
Now, I'm just idly speculating, could the mythical Nordic heaven 'Valhalla' also have evolved from 'Svarga La', i.e. 'Kingdom of Heaven'?
* * * * *
Something else that has fascinated me for some time is the strikingly close proximity between the English word 'Earth' and its Arabic counterpart 'Ardh'. To me, this is an obvious case of common ancient ancestry. Anyone knows more about this?
There is also the Persian 'Arta'/'Artu'/'Arda' and the Sanskrit 'Varta', but I believe they carry different meanings from the English 'Earth' or the Arabic 'Ardh'.
------------- History makes everything. Everything is history in the making. |
Posted By: Cyrus Shahmiri
Date Posted: 31-Mar-2010 at 08:21
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It can be a long linguistic discussion, just about the last thing that you said, I also think that "Earth" can be certainly related to Arabic "Ardh", there are some other words too, for example about the word sun, Indo-Europeans mostly use S+vowel+L/R which means "sun" and "year" in these languagez, like Persian Sal "Year/Solar", Old Norse Sol, Old Indian Svar, Avestan Hvar (S->H sound change), Lithuanian Saule, ... but it seems proto Germanic Sunna is more similar to Arabic Sana "Year/Solar", and also Shams "Sun" (Akkadian Shamash).
There are several other Germanic words too, for example about the names of body parts, we see English word "Eye" from proto-Germanic Auyon is almost the same as Arabic Ayn or English word "Neck" from Old-English hnecca/anecca is very similar to Arabic Anak, you can't find any similar word for neck in other Indo-European languages, and you proably know Anakites, the [long]-necked people. -------------
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Posted By: ranjithvnambiar
Date Posted: 02-Jul-2010 at 03:23
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How do you call it a fact when you have no proof to justify such a migration neither archaeological nor genetic.So what are you proposing for the dates of migration..? I hope you are aware of the latest archaeological findings of a chalcolithic civilization which was the precursor of Harappa in Mehrgarh Pakistan on the banks of a tributary to indus dating back to 7000BC. Apart from that many new sites on the banks of Ganges are uncovered now like Jhusi,Loharadewa,Bhairagi Bhita which are also dayting back to 7000BC and at Jhusi they got rice samples(Oriza satiwa) which on carbon dating gave a date of 6500-7000Bc and also grape samples dating back to 4000BC. Still you want to say that Indian civilization is set up by immigrants from other areas..? |
Posted By: ranjithvnambiar
Date Posted: 02-Jul-2010 at 03:40
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Till date all the genetic studies that had been carried out on the fossils from the Indus-saraswati valley from different layers had given homogeneous results or same results showing homogenity of population from 7000BC -600BC So genetics is speaking against any large scale invasion/migration etc. Apart from this archaeological studies shows homogenity and gradual development in material culture. so that too is against the possibility of any large scale invasion/migration. And inf linguistics is considered. The names of all the rivers(hydronomy) in Indus valley is Indo-European ie Sindhu,Sutudri,Saraswati,sarsuti etc.In all other places where large scale migration or invasion took place the culture might have changed but not river names.In all the cases the old river names in the native languages are retained. eg:- Names of almost all rivers in USA are still old red indian names ontario,michigun etc. Same is the case in Europe also. If indus valley has archaeological proof showing a civilization from 7000BC.if some Indo-Europeans from outside migrated to Indus invaded the natives and settled there afterwards how did they happen to change all the river names, without leaving even a single one..? How didd the illiterate barbaric hordes of horse riding Aryans who were in thousand happen to teach sanskrit to more than 20million natives of the existing civilization stretching from Baluchistan till karnataka in south India.And immediately after they started literary works..? or wrote 17500+ books in sanskrit..?
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Posted By: ranjithvnambiar
Date Posted: 02-Jul-2010 at 03:54
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Most of the language families have taken loan words from others and it is possible either way. and linguistic is not a recognised scientific tool to find out the antiquity of languages. Around 20% of the words of Uralic languages and Tamil Language of India are believed to be cognates.what does that prove Uralic languages evolved from Tamil..? or vice versa..?
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Posted By: ranjithvnambiar
Date Posted: 02-Jul-2010 at 04:05
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Indus -saraswati civilization not Indian...? How..? So,Do you know anything about the latest findings at various sites of Indus-Saraswati..? I mean of the archaeological sites viz Lothal,Surkotada,Kalibangan,Dholavira,Kot Dhiji,Rakhigarhi,Ganheriwala etc.... can you explain what did you find non-Indian in these sites..? The Rigvedic fire Altars of kalibangan,Lothal,Surkotada etc..? or the Shiva lingas(phallic symbols) of old harappan sites..? Or Rudra & mother goddess of moenjodaro & old harappan sites..? Or the seals with ox emblems(especiallyZebu cattle which is found only in India)..? Or the seals with Indian Elephant emblems..? Or the terracotta toy bullock carts with zebu cattle figurines..? What is non-Indian in these..?
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Posted By: ranjithvnambiar
Date Posted: 02-Jul-2010 at 04:09
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Indus Saraswati Civilization was purely Indian , I mean to say Hindu. They had fire altars and paid oblations to God through fire which Hindus still does in India. Archaeologists had found several fire altars at Kalibangan which dates back to 2900BC..and at Lothal & Surkotada dating back to 2300BC.They worshipped nature,five elements and fertility which is still followed by majority of Hindus of India
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Posted By: ranjithvnambiar
Date Posted: 02-Jul-2010 at 04:13
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Purva in sanskrit means east.It doesnot mean forward. but it has an alternate meaning 'past'. eg:-'purva charithra' in sanskrit means 'past history'
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Posted By: Cyrus Shahmiri
Date Posted: 02-Jul-2010 at 04:55
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No one can deny that Sanskrit was an Indo-European language, it can be true that Indians have preserved their ancient culture but about the language, it could be introduced to India some thousands years later, like English in the recent centuries, so it seems very possible that aboriginal people of India spoke a non-Indo-European language, like a Dravidian language. -------------
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Posted By: ranjithvnambiar
Date Posted: 02-Jul-2010 at 20:37
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By saying genetic study I meant studies conduvted on the cranium sizes of the fossils from Indus-Saraswati sites.They show uniformity throughout for several ,milleniums say from 7000BC to 600BC.That is indicating homogenity of Civilization. Different races of ethnic groups have different cranium structure and sizes so any invasion or large scale migration and offsprings generated after such events will have different cranium sizes and structure which is not found anywhere in Indus-saraswati valley. For furthar referance on any topics you can visit the site 'www.omilosmeleton.gr/ ' which is the site of a non-gazetted organization chaired by famous indologist & sanskritist Dr.Nicholas Kazanas.
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Posted By: ranjithvnambiar
Date Posted: 02-Jul-2010 at 20:52
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Astronomical referances in 'Thaithiriya Brahmana' is indicating equinoxes that took place near about 8000BC.And many astronomical referances in Rigveda speaks about equinoxes and stellar positions of about 4300BC. These stellar positions was observed by the composers with naked eye. Because back calculation and refering such incidents is impossible.The astronomical constants used by astronomers and mathematicians of ancient India like Apasthanba(900BC) ,Pingala(700BC) were differing from our present day values at their 4th &5th decimal places.so if back calculated this decimal difference will leave a difference of 5 to 15 degree difference in the positions of various planets and stellar constallations.Apart from that the positions of moon is impossible to back calculateeven todayso would have been the same earlire too.A difference of 5 to 15 degreein position calculation will leave an error 600-1200years in the dates being back calculated.But the astronomical referances of Rigveda and other books are very accurate & this proves that it was observed by the composers of these works with their naked eyes.these vedas,Brahmanams,Upanishads,samhitas,Sroutasutras,Gruhyasutras etc were preserved through oral tradition for milleniums and written down in present form much later. The use of planetaurium soft ware had helpedin finding out the correctdates of the astronomical referances in most of these books.Prof.Narahari Achar an astrophysist and faculty of Memphis University had found out the correct dates of mahabharatha war and many other such events using the Planetaurium soft ware.
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Posted By: ranjithvnambiar
Date Posted: 02-Jul-2010 at 21:02
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Aboriginal people of India..? you mean to say adivasis..? Munda and other clans.They are mainly distributed in East and south east. The genetical study conducted in Indus-saraswati valley including mehrgarh has not produced any proofs(munda or negritto skulls) hinting the presence of any aborigines there. The Indus-Saraswati civilization spanned over a large area from Baluchistan to Krishna-Godavari basins of Andhra South India and it covered millions of sqare miles. So the skin colour of inhabitants would have varied according to the climatic conditions they were exposed to but not skull structure and genetics.There was uniformity in material culture too.
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Posted By: ranjithvnambiar
Date Posted: 02-Jul-2010 at 21:10
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Look I was speaking about the presence of sanskrit in Indus-Saraswati valley from very early times It never came to India.Proofs say that it originated here.Like I earlier said about hydronomy ie rivernames. All the rivernames in Indus-Saraswati valley are in Sanskrit showing a very early presence. unlike other parts of the world.The so called invading aryans doesnt have a prehistory beyond 3000BC.But sanskrit and Indus valley had. There is no proof for presence of an aboriginal culture in Indus-saraswati valley and the proofs for the rigvedic fire rituals at various site dating beyond 3000BC are available and river names eg:- Sarayu,Sarsuti,Sindhu,Sutudri,saraswati are all sanskrit. If at all the so called old inhabitants were speaking aboriginal languages then atleast some of the rivers will be having aboriginal river names similar to the river names in USA which I earlier pointed out.
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Posted By: Cyrus Shahmiri
Date Posted: 02-Jul-2010 at 21:41
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ranjithvnambiar, what do you want to say? Do you think all Indo-European languages originated in India? or do you think Sanskrit didn't relate to other Indo-European languages? -------------
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Posted By: ranjithvnambiar
Date Posted: 02-Jul-2010 at 21:45
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Purba is 'Prakrit'..In prakrit a different dialect of sanskrit. Arabia was believed to be called as Arbasthan in prakrit in sanskrit it will be 'Arvasthan' . 'Arva' or 'Aswa' in Sanskrit means Horse.Arvasthan means Place of Horses.
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Posted By: balochii
Date Posted: 02-Jul-2010 at 21:58
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"Indus Saraswati Civilization" is a word made by indian nationalistic people, you are one of them who think aryans are native to india
The real civilization is "indus Valley civilization"
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Posted By: ranjithvnambiar
Date Posted: 02-Jul-2010 at 22:07
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The Chronology of Indo European migration as per the hypothesis is 2250 BC Achaeans come to Greece 2100 BC Hittites and Luwians settle in East Asia Minor 2100 BC Celtic tribes in Europe 2000 BC Italic tribes come to Italy 2000 BC Doric Greek tribes settle in Illyria 1900 BC Mycenae founded by Achaeans in Greece 1750 BC - 1250 BC Ancient Hittite (Nesian) texts from Asia Minor 1700 BC Aryans came to North India and destroyed Mohenjo-Daro 1700 BC - 1350 BC
Aryans as one of the nations of Mitanni Empire 1600 BC The
Old Hittite Kingdom founded. I meant to say that there was presence of sanskrit in Indus valley before this period. Proofs indicate that North West India is the Indo-Aryan Urheimat and so say about sanskrit too. For referance you can visit 'Omilos meleton' website earlier mentioned by me earlier. And why do you think that India cannot be the 'Original Urheimat' of Aryans as well as Indo-aryan languages..? Apart from this the Proto-Indo european language older than sanskrit too is now identified in India |
Posted By: ranjithvnambiar
Date Posted: 02-Jul-2010 at 22:20
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For your information Dr.Nicholas Kazanas is A Greek,Michel Danino is French & Koenraad Elst is Dutch who proposed such a name to this civilization.And nearly 50% of the archaeologists who work on these sites are 'Non-Indian'..Will you call them too "Indian nationalists"..? Apart from this more than 75% of the Archaeological site are on the banks of gaggar-Hakhra river on the western side of present day Rajasthan & Punjab and on the Eastern borders of Pakisthan. TheThe satellite photography and corresponding studies had prooved this to be the Rigvedic Sarawati River and so the name indus-Saraswati. The New archaeological sites like ,Kalibangan,Dholavira,Rakhigarhi,Ganheriwala,Surkotasda and all sites of rann of Kutch are on the banks of saraswati and hence the name Indus-saraswati Civilization. I am interested in a logical reasoning based debate and not name calling like what you have started "indian nationalist" next will be "Hindu Fundamental" and so on.I dont like indulging indulging in mudslinging and thus wasting time in a nonproductive way If you are lacking proof please dont start mudslinging and name calling like the Aryan Invasion Theorists Prof.Michael Witzel and others.
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Posted By: ranjithvnambiar
Date Posted: 02-Jul-2010 at 22:48
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@ balochi knight Apart from that what difference will that make if you call Indus valley civilization as Indus -Saraswathi valley.Both are rigvedic rivers Indus is Sindhu & Saraswathi saraswathi itself.. This naming is taking into consideration the number of sites on the banks of saraswati. And are Indians not supposed to debate or speak for what is a fact..? and what they believe...? Whatever i am claiming has proofs to support and I am refering the names of those who proposed it.. |
Posted By: balochii
Date Posted: 03-Jul-2010 at 09:27
| ^ the only proof you are putting is through nationalistic hindu sources, no international sources have confirmed any of it, Until that happens no sane person would believe any of it |
Posted By: ranjithvnambiar
Date Posted: 04-Jul-2010 at 20:38
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Dear brother balochi, You can close your eyes and refrain from seeing things but not blindfold the whole universe.Without even bothering to check the sources, you have branded them to be nationalistic sources.The below mentioned site is of a Greek Indologist & Linguist Dr.Nicholas Kazanas who taught Aryan Invasion Theory first & then Aryan Migration Theory. Afterwards he came to India and Pakistan and then carried out a research on his own and came to his own conclusion & then started opposing AIT/AMT.In his paper he had even mentioned the discriminatory approach made by the faculty of JIES against the opposers of mainstream model. The site is "www.omilosmeleton.gr/" The site is in greek& there is an english version also available.You have to go to the site open the english version and then go to Indology.And there are a number of research papers he had produced and some had even be published in JIES ie Journal for Indo European studies.Each and every research conducted by him and others were done with scientific tools and widely accepted methodologies. Now whether to go through it or not is your decision and bluntly denying the proofs saying that "you are a nationalist" looks senseless to me. Again 'what to believe' and 'what not to' is purely ones decision but facts will be different |
Posted By: Kanas_Krumesis
Date Posted: 05-Jul-2010 at 03:35
Because the older Sanskrit sources (like Rigveda) says that Aryans came from different places
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Posted By: ranjithvnambiar
Date Posted: 06-Jul-2010 at 01:42
| Can you specify the verses of Rigveda which speaks about "aryans coming from different places" and can you be more specific about the places that you are mentioning..? |
Posted By: ranjithvnambiar
Date Posted: 06-Jul-2010 at 01:53
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@Kanas_Krumesis "Because the older Sanskrit sources (like Rigveda) says that Aryans came from different places" There are total of 10 Mandalas in rigveda consisting of 1028 Hymns and 10552 verses. Can you be more specific about "The Mandala".. "The Hymn" and "The Verse" which is speaking about the "Aryans coming from Different places" and the places where they came from
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Posted By: ranjithvnambiar
Date Posted: 06-Jul-2010 at 02:45
I too am not denying that Sanskrit is an Indo-European language.In fact I am saying that it is one of the oldest Indo-European language which is the "most" nearest language to Proto-Indo -European language. You mean to say that Indians had an ancient culture and then learnt a new language after some thousand years from some invaders/migrants..? isnt it.? Ya it is true that we have partly preserved our ancient culture and we still perform Vedic rites like 'Agnicayana',Agnishtoma' etc which were performed by Harappan people. About the language you mean to say that it came later..? All the literary works related to Vedas were written in older version or vedic sanskrit. A whole lot of 17000+ versions and interpretations of Vedas and associated
teachings were available even during 200BC.I think it will take centuries and
even milleniums to do such awork. Patanjali who lived in 2nd century BC has mentioned in his mahabhasya that Rigveda has 21 shakhas( or branches ), Yajur has 101 shakhas , Sama has 1000 shakhas and Atharva has 9 shakhas.Totaling around 1131 shakas or branches.Each shakha has its own Samhita,Brahmanam,Aaranyakam,Upanishad apart from this Sroutha sutra,Gruhya sutra,Dharmasutra,Praathisakhyam,Niruktam likewise 13 granthas(or collection of manuscripts). That will give us a 17500 +/- Granthas in 200BC.It says these 17500 granthas are dating backward only. Apart from this it is well known to historians that the vedic Sanskrit came to an end by 600BC and gave way to classical Sanskrit .And during 400BC panini gave a proper grammaticall form for the classical Sanskrit. So thse granthas were compiled much before 600BC. Do you mean to say that some 10000 or 15000 illiterate barbaric horse riding Aryans invaded/migrated to indus valley and taught sanskrit approximately 20million Idus-saraswati people and then sat down and wrote all these books...?
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Posted By: ranjithvnambiar
Date Posted: 06-Jul-2010 at 02:58
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Apart from this as I earlier told all the river names and place names of the Indus & saraswati valley are in sanskrit.Not even a single river or place has got Dravidian or non-indo european name indicating the presence of sanskrit from a very early period. Where as Greece has many place and river names which are pre-hellenic(pelasgian) and Europe has many place & river names that are pre-celtic indicating the presence of a non-indo-european culture/civilization there.This is attested by archaeologists and even linguists. |
Posted By: Kanas_Krumesis
Date Posted: 06-Jul-2010 at 07:03
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"With all-outstripping chariot-wheel, O Indra,Thou, far-famed, hast overthrown the twice ten kings …Thou goest from fight to fight, intrepidly. Destroying castle after castle here with strength. (RV 1.53)" "Indra - 5.29.10 - "One car-wheel of the Sun thou rolledst forward, and one thou settest free to move for Kutsa. Thou slewest noseless Dasyus with thy weapon, and in their home o'erthrewest hostile speakers." "Indra - 1.103.3 - "Armed with his bolt and trusting in his prowess he wandered shattering the forts of Dasas. Cast thy dart, knowing, Thunderer, at the Dasyu; increase the Arya's might and glory, Indra." What about Dasyan (Dasa) people? Were not Dasa a local population of India according Rigveda? They were dark-skin, opposite to Aryans. I don`t think they lived in the same area firstly. |
Posted By: ranjithvnambiar
Date Posted: 06-Jul-2010 at 20:23
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I didnt get it. Where are the "migrating aryans" mentioned...?Where are the places mentioned..? Okay which are the places mentioned here..? Where is it said that Aryans came from outside..? Where is it said that Dasyus & Dasas are aboriginal or black skinned..? Rigeveda is not mentioning about the skin colour of Dasyus & dasas but you are proposing... isnt it..?
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Posted By: ranjithvnambiar
Date Posted: 06-Jul-2010 at 22:46
More than 414 sites archaeological sites are exposed recently on the banks of Gaggar-Hakra river.Satellite studies had proved that this is the sRigvedic Saraswati river which dried up in 1900BC due to tectonic disturbances resulting in its tributaries cahnging their course into Indus. Only less than 4 dozen site are on the banks of Indus and more than 80% archaeological sites ie remnants of old civilization are on the banks of saraswathi and hence the name.
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Posted By: Cyrus Shahmiri
Date Posted: 06-Jul-2010 at 22:54
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As I mentioned in another thread, there are some words in almost all Indo-European languages but not in Sanskrit, the main reason could be that Indians migrated to a different region and these words could be useless for them, one of these words is Proto-IE *sneigʷhe- (to snow):
Tokharian: B śiñcatstse 'snowy' (Adams 629)
Avestan: snaēženti (ayąn) `an einem schneienden Tage', conj. snaēžāt_ `wird schneien'
Old Greek: hom. acc. níph-a `fallender Schnee'; hom. agá-nnipho- `sehr beschneit'; niphetó-s m. `fallender Schnee, Schneesturm'; niphás, -ádos f. `Schneeflocke, -gestöber'; néi̯phei̯, aor. nêi̯psai̯, neiphthē̂nai̯, ft. néi̯psei̯ `es schneit'
Slavic: http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?single=1&basename=/data/ie/vasmer&text_number=+12998&root=config - - *snēgъ D; *snēgulja, *snēžīcā, *snēgyrь (разные птицы)
 Baltic: http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?single=1&basename=/data/ie/baltet&text_number=+++514&root=config - - *sneĩg-a- c., *sneĩg-u- sb., *snig-teî (prs. sneĩg=) vb., *snaig-[a]- m.
Germanic: http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?single=1&basename=/data/ie/germet&text_number=+++735&root=config - - *snī(g)w-a- vb.; *snai(g)w-a- m.
Latin: nix, gen. nivis f. `Schnee'; nīvit, -ere `schneien', ninguit, nīnxit, -ere `schneien'
Celtic: *snig-, *snixt- > Ir snigid `es tropft, regnet', snige `Tropfen, Regen', snechta `Schnee'; Cymr nyf `Schnee', nyfio `schneien'
Russ. meaning: снег; идти (о снеге)
Of course there are also some words in the Eastern Indo-European languages which can not be found in the Western ones, like about the word for "Camel": Sanskrit Ushtra, Persian Ushtor, Armenian Ught, ... -------------
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Posted By: Kanas_Krumesis
Date Posted: 07-Jul-2010 at 03:23
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So Dasas had their castles and forts (target for Aryans), but they weren`t aboriginal?! Places mentioned in Rigveda situated in North India, and obviously Dasas lived right there. Aryans conquered them. Dasas were black skinned and this has been said many times in Rigveda. Even from modern point of veiw this is a clear racist book. This is fully in line with caste system, introduced in sociaty by Indo-Aryans, which is ancient form of Apartheid.
"Black skin is impious" (‘Dasam varnam adharam’) -Sans., Rg.V. II.12.4
Indra - 1.130.8 - "Indra in battles help his Aryan worshipper, he who hath hundred helps at hand in every fray, in frays that win the light of heaven. Plaguing the lawless he gave up to Manu's seed the dusky skin; Blazing, 'twere, he burns each covetous man away, he burns, the tyrannous away."
Soma Pavamana - 9.73.5 - "O'er Sire and Mother they have roared in unison bright with the verse of praise, burning up riteless men, Blowing away with supernatural might from earth and from the heavens the swarthy skin which Indra hates."
"Indra, the slayer of Vrittra, the destroyer of cities, has scattered the Dasyu (hosts) sprang from a black womb." RgV. II 20.6
The new ideas of Hindus nationalism about substantive creation of Indian civilization don`t have any scientific bases.
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Posted By: ranjithvnambiar
Date Posted: 07-Jul-2010 at 03:44
In sanskrit 'hima' means snow and 'hiems' in latin has a similar meaning. Presence & absence of cognates and same words in languages can show relation but not attest any migration and direction of migration. All the scientific tools viz.Archaeology , Archaeo-astronomy,anthropology & Genetics has disproved any possibility of invasion or migration to Indus-saraswati valley from 7000Bc to 600BC. American Archaeologist J.Shaffer who carried out archaeological studies in Indus & saraswati sites had called Aryan Invasion theory a "myth' way back in 1984. US anthropologists Kenneth Kennady , John Lukacs & Brian Hemphill has concluded after their study that there is no trace of "demographic disruption" in the north west of indian sub continent from 5000BC till 800BC. This negates the possibility of any massive intrusion let it be invasion or migration , by so called Indo-Aryans or other populations during that period. Die-hard proponants of such an invasion/migration have therefore been compelled to downscale it to a "trickle - in" infiltration limited enough to have left no physical trace, although they are at pains to explain how a "trickle" was able to radically alter India's linguistic and cultural landscape,when much more massive invasions of historical periods failed to do so. In 1999 Estonian Biologist Toomas Kivislid along with 14 other biologists of various nationalities(including M.J.Bamshad) carried out a study for identifying the genetical link between Indian & west eurasian populations.And they found out a remote seperation between the two branches rather than recent population movement towards India. In their words " We found an extensive deep late pleistocene genetic link between contemporary European & Indians provided by the mtDNA haplogroup U which encompasses roughly a fifth of mtDNA lineage of both the populations.Our estimate for this split(of Europeans and Indians) is close to the suggested time for peopling of asia and the first expansion of anatomically modern humans in Eurasia and likely pre-dates their spread to Europe". The second study was published just a month later by Us biological Anthropologist Todd R Disotell. Concluding that the Eurasian connection is therefore traced to the original migration out of Africa. On the genetic Level " the supposed Aryan Invasion of India 3000 to 4000 years ago was much less significant than generally believed. Various other genetical and anthropological studies were conducted afterwards which obtained similar results and many are presently going on. So none of the scientifically attested tools are supporting the Aryan Invasion/migration to Indus-Saraswati civilization but indicating an indegeous civilization and culture & language too.
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Posted By: ranjithvnambiar
Date Posted: 07-Jul-2010 at 03:47
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Rigveda is infact silent
about a former homeland , or immigration and contains positive indications
about the Aryas very long presence in Sapta sindhu.Hymn X.75 , 5 gives a list
of names of rivers not in the order from west to east as we would expect from
invaders advancing from that region but from east to west as people long
settled and having east as the starting point of referance (10.75 , 5) Favour ye this my laud O
Ganga , Yamuna O Sutudri , Parusni and Saraswati: With Asikni , Vitasta , O
Marudvrdha , O Arjikiya with Susoma hear my call. There are passages
expressing the Aryans’ strong sense of being rooted in their lands when they
recall their ancestors taking their place in the sacrifice “here”, like the
Angiras family(IV , 1 , 13) Here did our human fathers
take their places,fain to fulfill sacred law of worship Forth drave they ,with loud
call, Dawn’s teeming Milch-kine bid in the mountain stable,in the cavern. or the Vasisthas (VII , 76 , 4). They were God’s companion at
the banquet, the ancient sages true to Law Eternal. The fathers found the light
that lay in darkness,and with effectual words begat the Morning Furthar more Vedic texts
refer to peoples being exiled or drive away from Saptha Sindhu. The early Aitareya Brahmana (VII , 33 , 6 or VII , 18)
writes of Sage Visvamitra exiling his 50 disobedient sons so that in later
periods “ most of the Dasyus are the
descendents of Viswamitra , mostly in the east”(Vedic Index, ‘andhra’) In Rigveda we have atleast
two similar and much more informative passages Rig veda VII , 18 , 15
&16 tells how Indra helped King
Sudas to defeat his numerically superior enemies(the 10 kings) many of whom
were Aryan tribes and scattered them far over the earth(Para sardhantam nunude
abhi ksam). These Trtsus under indra’s
careful guidance came speeding like loose waters rushing down wards The foemen measuring
exceeding closely,abandoned to Sudas all their provisions. The hero’s side who drank
the dressed oblation,Indra’s denier far o’er earth he scattered. Indra brought down the
fierce destroyer’s fury,He gave them various roads,the path’s controller. In VII . 6 , 3 Agni
assailed repeatedly those Dasyus and from the east turned the unholy ones to
the west. (…purvas cakara aparam). The foolish , faithless,
rudely speaking niggards , without belief or sacrifice or worship Far away sway hath Agni
chased those Dasytis, and in cast, hath turned the godless westward Now to take the last
referance , Since Dasyus are as per Aryan Invasion Theory the native Dravidians
or Mundas or what ever else , they should have been driven south yet the text
says unequivocally “west”. So Is this westward migration that of aborigines...?
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Posted By: ranjithvnambiar
Date Posted: 07-Jul-2010 at 03:48
Rigveda is infact silent about a former homeland , or immigration and contains positive indications about the Aryas very long presence in Sapta sindhu.Hymn X.75 , 5 gives a list of names of rivers not in the order from west to east as we would expect from invaders advancing from that region but from east to west as people long settled and having east as the starting point of referance (10.75 , 5) Favour ye this my laud O Ganga , Yamuna O Sutudri , Parusni and Saraswati: With Asikni , Vitasta , O Marudvrdha , O Arjikiya with Susoma hear my call. There are passages expressing the Aryans’ strong sense of being rooted in their lands when they recall their ancestors taking their place in the sacrifice “here”, like the Angiras family(IV , 1 , 13) Here did our human fathers take their places,fain to fulfill sacred law of worship Forth drave they ,with loud call, Dawn’s teeming Milch-kine bid in the mountain stable,in the cavern. or the Vasisthas (VII , 76 , 4). They were God’s companion at the banquet, the ancient sages true to Law Eternal. The fathers found the light that lay in darkness,and with effectual words begat the Morning Furthar more Vedic texts refer to peoples being exiled or drive away from Saptha Sindhu. The early Aitareya Brahmana (VII , 33 , 6 or VII , 18) writes of Sage Visvamitra exiling his 50 disobedient sons so that in later periods “ most of the Dasyus are the descendents of Viswamitra , mostly in the east”(Vedic Index, ‘andhra’) In Rigveda we have atleast two similar and much more informative passages Rig veda VII , 18 , 15 &16 tells how Indra helped King Sudas to defeat his numerically superior enemies(the 10 kings) many of whom were Aryan tribes and scattered them far over the earth(Para sardhantam nunude abhi ksam). These Trtsus under indra’s careful guidance came speeding like loose waters rushing down wards The foemen measuring exceeding closely,abandoned to Sudas all their provisions. The hero’s side who drank the dressed oblation,Indra’s denier far o’er earth he scattered. Indra brought down the fierce destroyer’s fury,He gave them various roads,the path’s controller. In VII . 6 , 3 Agni assailed repeatedly those Dasyus and from the east turned the unholy ones to the west. (…purvas cakara aparam). The foolish , faithless, rudely speaking niggards , without belief or sacrifice or worship Far away sway hath Agni chased those Dasytis, and in cast, hath turned the godless westward Now to take the last referance , Since Dasyus are as per Aryan Invasion Theory the native Dravidians or Mundas or what ever else , they should have been driven south yet the text says unequivocally “west”. So Is this westward migration that of aborigines...? |
Posted By: ranjithvnambiar
Date Posted: 07-Jul-2010 at 03:50
You should bother to go through the scientific proofs then you will find yourself baseless.
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Posted By: ranjithvnambiar
Date Posted: 07-Jul-2010 at 04:10
The Verses which you have quoted her are speaking nothing about a migration. Secondly they are hymns praising god Indra firstly by Savya Angiras(1.53.9) second by Kutsa Angiras(1.103.3) and third by Gauriviti Shaktya who is a Vasistha(5.29.10). They were all priests of Bharatha clan which itself is a puru clan although other purus were also there. in the battle of ten kings 'dasarajna' Sudas had defeated aryan as well as non-aryan people like Dasyus.The Anus ,Alinas ,Bhrigus etc are all aryans so this canot be taken as an aryan Invasion. And Indra is Mythological diety Him love for soma and his wars against dasyus and thunder weapons are all exagerrated praises rather than facts. apart from this there is no mention of any place where Indra had fought the dasyus and where he came from. If you consider those as "scientific proof".Then I am really unable to understand your concept about science.
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Posted By: ranjithvnambiar
Date Posted: 07-Jul-2010 at 04:15
Can you justify your claims of Aboriginal(black skinned or negritto) identities of Dasas & Dasyus with genetical proofs ..A lot of Genetical studies had been conducted and are ongoing in the Indus-saraswathi valley. Can you produce some reports in favour of your claim..? Because I want to believe you.
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Posted By: ranjithvnambiar
Date Posted: 07-Jul-2010 at 05:08
Sudas Was a Bharatha king and he attributes his winning the dasarajna to Indra the thunder god.
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Posted By: ranjithvnambiar
Date Posted: 19-Jul-2010 at 07:05
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The link recent genetical studies which has ruled out the possibility of an Aryan invasion http://sites.google.com/site/r2dnainfo/R2-Home/Aryans/reasons-why-the-aryan-invasion-theory - http://sites.google.com/site/ |
Posted By: balochii
Date Posted: 19-Jul-2010 at 18:57
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Western half of pakistan and northern pakistan and also eastern afghanistan are the key to this aryan argument, I really wish those areas were safe for archaeologists to go.
Also Ranjitvanambiar, the natives of punjab and sindh even to this day are really darkskinned, I am not talking about sikhs or modern pakistani punjabies and sindhis who live in the cities who have been clearly effected by outside genes, i am talking about going to villages where people have been living for thousands of years, almost all of them look like dravdians, how do you explain this? there is no way these people migrated westwards, because if you just go west of this area in to western pakistan, afghanistan and iran people are much might skinned then dravidians
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Posted By: Vivekanand
Date Posted: 19-Jul-2010 at 22:50
Mr. Balochii, Its strange that one would arrive upon conclusions by observing skin color of people at villages as aganist those in cities.. However, there is no genetic difference amongst these people, making the skin color argument futile.. Why? I can tell you a hundreds of reasons.. but would you be patient enough to hear me out... Seeing the earlier outbursts at ranjithvnambiar, I think there would be no reason for you to spare me as well.... But I am still hopeful of reciprocal good behavior from you.. Please take time to read this first and then we can discuss again.. http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/news/india/Aryan-Dravidian-divide-a-myth-Study/articleshow/5053274.cms - http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/news/india/Aryan-Dravidian-divide-a-myth-Study/articleshow/5053274.cms Now before branding this a Hindu Nationalist attempt, read the purpose of the researchers in the penultimate paragraphs... They are trying to fight disease and not to prove anyones superiority Let us be clear, scientifically proven migration has happened 75000 years or more earlier...Aryan invasion was never proven, it was circumstantial proof, like the ones you put forward, skin color and eye color...The field of genetics was not advanced enough when this hypothesis was expounded.. Science, with its advancement, will correct the mistakes we made... Hopefully we are open-minded enough analyze and accept these.... Aryan Invasion is a myth, which science has busted... it was a political theory, not a scientific one.. :-) It does not change practically anything for me or you, we just know a little better who we are... Thanks, Vivek
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Posted By: ranjithvnambiar
Date Posted: 20-Jul-2010 at 01:34
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Dear Balochi, I hope you have gone through the link that I have posted.Do you think those geneticists of different nationalities(who counted in hundreds) were ignorent of the where abouts and the physical features of the people whom they were studying..?
You were found to mention frequently about Dravidians..? what do you mean by saying a dravidian..? and you ignored my earlier question. Who actually as per you are dravidians..? What are their physical features..?What makes them different from other ethnic groups..? before finding out clear answers for such questions you cannot claim a group of people to be dravidians. |
Posted By: Vivekanand
Date Posted: 20-Jul-2010 at 04:02
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@Kanas_Krumesis What is 'Dasam Varnam Adharam'.. Looks like this is a verse made up by someone, or at the least definitely misquoted Reason1 Sanskrit meaning of the words Dasa - Dasa/Sub-servient/ Servant/ Maid Varnam - Colour/Classification Adharam - Lips In whatever way I want to read... this never black is impious... It can mean .. 'The lip colored maid/ sub-servient' Now, I guess the creator of this verse..because of not being well versed in sanskrit has confused 'Adharmam' ( Unlawful) to 'Adharam'... Reason 2 Its mentioned that this belongs to RV II chapter, 12th Hymn, Verse 4. Again this is completely wrong.. The correct verse is given below.. they are about Indra Rg Veda II.XII.4 By whom this universe was made to tremble, who chased away the humbled brood of demons, Who, like a gambler gathering his winnings seized the foe's riches, He, O men, is Indra. Now, why would someone makeup such a thing, to put down an ancient text or to purposefully target a culture.. Really funny and weird...
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Posted By: Vivekanand
Date Posted: 20-Jul-2010 at 04:14
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I googled this 'Dasa' phrase.. sad that this phony stuff being used by a few websites to link racism to the Rg.. Ignorance of people is the main weapon of these people... lets share more knowledge to eradicate these phonies from intervening
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Posted By: balochii
Date Posted: 20-Jul-2010 at 06:13
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i personally dont know and dont care for the aryan invasion theory, i dont know if it is true or not, however what hindu nationalistics always say is the "out of india theory" there is absoultly no proof of that at all, like i said the natives of punjab and sindh are darkskinned, i dont care what there DNA is, there is no way they could have moved west wards in to afghanistan or Iran because iranians and afghans look very different from the natives of punjab and sindh who live in the villages. Looks play a huge role in any sort of mass migration, surely it would have changed some looks in Afghanistan or Iran if this mass migration from india took place. |
Posted By: Cyrus Shahmiri
Date Posted: 20-Jul-2010 at 06:22
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It is not really possible that Indians want to separate themselves from other Indo-European peoples, Sanskrit is an Indo-European language and this language was introduced to Indians, either by a migration or by cultural relations of aborgingal people of India and an Indo-European people.
It is clear that India couldn't be the original land of Indo-European peoples, for example about Iranian people, we know according to Avesta, one of the oldest Indo-European sources, the original land of Iranians/Aryans (Airyana Vaeja) was in the region that "There were ten winter months there, two summer months; and those were cold for the waters, cold for the earth, cold for the trees." -------------
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Posted By: balochii
Date Posted: 20-Jul-2010 at 06:35
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^ i personally think it was more of a cultural relations
I personally think aryans whoever they were existed some where in today's Afghanistan, Eastern Iran, Tajikistan and northern areas of pakistan.
It is important to know where Sanskrit and avestan were founded, Sanskrit was founded somewhere in the northern pakistan area of today and Avestan was found in modern Afghanistan. Like i said before these areas play a huge role in this aryan debate, But i dont think no one has done too much reasearch in these areas.
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Posted By: Vivekanand
Date Posted: 20-Jul-2010 at 06:48
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The home of Iranian people may be quoted as from else where, But why cant it be that this particular cultural relations with Indian people, the Sanatani ( as Hindus were known prior to 5000 BC) might have exchanged, remember the keyword is exchange (give and take) ... When a relationship establishes, both sides would exchange the good and bad parts... The fact that we have more remnants on the Indian side of the table (over several millenia) might even lead us to believe that India could have been a major contributor as well... Discrediting the aboriginal Indians, as some prefer to call them, or the Sanatani (Hindus) of their knowledge and religion is not done... They contributed, as well as accepted learning from whichever culture they came across to build the basis of the oldest standing mordern religion... the Sanatana Dharma, the ritual name of Hinduism... Now, the point I am making is that, telling us you were nothing, we gave you all is nothing but equally boisterous as the purported Aryan Invasion... |
Posted By: balochii
Date Posted: 20-Jul-2010 at 07:05
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^ i dont think anyone is suggesting that though, India already had a civilization, however the exchanges that took place from aryans added to the indian civilization, especially the language(Sanskrit) and literature.
For example even in modern India many indians have adopted (english) as their main language and westernization mixing it with their own culture. I believe some thing similar might have taken place when aryans existed just west of india, this also took place when (mughals) from central asia came, for example much of what we call north indian food today is mughali food
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Posted By: Vivekanand
Date Posted: 20-Jul-2010 at 07:15
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Balochii, I also have come across 'The out of India' theory which the Nationalist say.. It does not propose any large scale migration.. It in fact sources its reference to the Shruti/Smriti texts ( Hear/Memorize texts) ...the unwritten ones, which are passed on from generation to generation via oral tradition... What these texts say is stories from the time before the Vedas were asssimiliated... I guess the Vedas.. all four of them would have been written and rewritten over a period of several centuries.. Now these oral texts ( an oxymoron :-) ) speak of indigenous Indians, travelling in their horses to various lands.. as explorers, where they spread their knowledge, learnt new things and came back.. sometimes even after several centuries they return.. their generations... Now, you cant blame the Hindu Nationalist, as they believe what they read as historical fact.. Whether there is any truth in these texts or its filled with whims and imaginations of a few prehistoric dreamers...only time will tell.. if it can.. I am quite excited about the prospect that you suggest, that Sanskrit was founded in northern Pakistan, according to pre-vedic texts, this region would be called Gandhara, after sage Gandhara.. The idea is new indeed.. but quite possible.. it could well be the meeting point of the cultures from both sides... Do you see any evidence in any texts or researches? |
Posted By: balochii
Date Posted: 20-Jul-2010 at 07:27
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wow this is amazing, this is the exact thing we are talking about in northern pakistan, apprantly the objects belong to Aryan civilization near Chitral, but again the security fears are of concern:
http://centralasiaonline.com/cocoon/caii/xhtml/en_GB/features/caii/features/pakistan/2010/06/30/feature-03 - http://centralasiaonline.com/cocoon/caii/xhtml/en_GB/features/caii/features/pakistan/2010/06/30/feature-03
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Posted By: balochii
Date Posted: 20-Jul-2010 at 07:42
| ^ Chitral area is key, that where the Kalash people live, an ancient European looking people. No on is sure of their origin. |
Posted By: Vivekanand
Date Posted: 20-Jul-2010 at 10:24
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Its amazing.. yet ironical... The same site which is mentioned in texts, dating to 5000 BC and before, talks of this place.. about Sage Gandhara moving from mainland India towards west preaching his knowhow.. and the place getting its name from him How come this is called an Aryan site by the article.. Politics is fine, we all know Pakistan and India donot share good vibes, but if this relationship causes intervention in historical research, then there is as well no point in digging these places up... But as Klaus Schmidt says 'When new gods come, the old ones must be buried' |
Posted By: balochii
Date Posted: 20-Jul-2010 at 11:22
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^ we need proof of what you say, where does it say that exactly? what is mainland india? Uttar pardesh?
What does mainland india have to do with this site or any other sites in northern pakistan? you guys dont own the land or history of that area. Gandhara didn't even stretch any part of modern india of today
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Posted By: Vivekanand
Date Posted: 20-Jul-2010 at 11:50
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Again Balochii... you miss the whole point.. Mordern day India/Pak does not come into picture.. do you realize that both these countries share common history.. before as near in the past as 1947 We are talking of 7000 - 8000 yrs old stuff.. only proof I have is some words from an oral tradition.. which no one other than Hindus would accept as truth :-) Whatever we know of Gandhara is max 1500 - 2000 BC old.. hope such excavations bring to light its antiquity... the Persians took over this place in 6 century BC, then the buddhist.. and so on... |
Posted By: balochii
Date Posted: 20-Jul-2010 at 11:57
| ^ but when did gandhara specifically extend in to modern india? i mean if it did then i would yes there is comman history, but Gandhara did not at all. Hindu shahis of Gandhara are not the hindu indians of today, if there are hindus in the chitral valley, which i believe do exist then yes this history belongs to them but not the hindus of modern india, ethinically people of chitral are different from indians of today |
Posted By: Vivekanand
Date Posted: 20-Jul-2010 at 12:08
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This is an excerpt from a quite well translated version of Smrti Texts... it will give more clarity |
Posted By: balochii
Date Posted: 20-Jul-2010 at 12:55
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^ lol who wrote that article, even claiming iranian territory as hindu indian, its clear its written by some nationalistic indian who has no sense of real history. why can't you guys ever bring sources from outside your nationlistic circles?
also since when was sadhu gandhara of your's mentioned in the article i posted?
gandhara civilization and its history belongs to the populations of northern pakistan of today be it muslim, hindu, buddhist. not hindus, muslims or sikhs from india of today, they have nothing to do with the place.
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Posted By: ranjithvnambiar
Date Posted: 20-Jul-2010 at 21:45
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Kindly follow the link to know what archaeologists found in Indus-Saraswati valley http://www.cycleoftime.com/articles_view.php?codArtigo=54 - http://www.cycleoftime.com/articles_view.php?codArtigo=54
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Posted By: ranjithvnambiar
Date Posted: 20-Jul-2010 at 21:47
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Kindly go through the following link to know what genetical studies say about Indus-Saraswati civilization and the so called "Aryan invasion" http://sites.google.com/site/
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Posted By: balochii
Date Posted: 20-Jul-2010 at 21:54
| ^ again the links lead to some nationalistic indian page, for once post a link that is not done by an indian nationalistic, also we are not talking about indus valley per say, we are talking about Gandhara, which is totally based today's pakistan and eastern afghanistan, modern india has nothing to do with this. |
Posted By: ranjithvnambiar
Date Posted: 20-Jul-2010 at 21:56
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Dear Balochi, And about the mythical concept of Indus-Saraswati civilization being a dravidian one kindly visit the site given earlier ie cycle of time. Linguistics also is in favour of this ie in case of rivernames ,placenames and names of dieties worshipped by rigvedic people. Linguistic methodologies have limitations it cannot give a timeline for any developmen and apart from this it completely fails in addressing the direction of propogations.Every thing is based on assumptions And whether or not to acknowledge facts is one's decision.And if you want you can continue your propoganda of getting confused and confusing others in matters where you have little understanding.
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Posted By: balochii
Date Posted: 20-Jul-2010 at 21:57
| ^ again read my above post |
Posted By: ranjithvnambiar
Date Posted: 20-Jul-2010 at 22:19
When there never took place a Aryan invasion at allhow do you expect such exchanges.. And about english in India, only less than 10% of Indian population are well versed in it and more than 95% of schools of India teaches in their colocial or locational languages. And people learn english in India purely for career purpose. And the whole of prehistoric literature ,the names of all the places , rivers and even all the dieties are in sanskrit.. How do you explain that. A group or groups of so called aryans numbering only thousands, came to Indus-saraswati valley civilization which stretched from Balochistan to Karnataka in South India spanning more than 2 million square kilometres and accomodated a population of more than 20 million people and conquered them in 1700-1500Bc and taught them sanskrit& religion and fire worship and made them write around 17500+ books in pre-classical sanskrit within next 200 years.. Great imagination
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Posted By: Vivekanand
Date Posted: 20-Jul-2010 at 23:23
This is the reaction I expected, as you would believe whatever is written in ancient scriptures, scrolls of west, but ancient Indian / Hindu scriptures and scrolls are considered myths.. :-) even if they corroborate with mordern places... Herat, Namaksar, Gandhara Civilization all exist and you can see it was mentioned in these scripts... It is proof enough for me.. I am no nationalist.. I dont want to claim everything came from India.. But ancient Bharata Varsha, as mentioned in those texts, has a pretty high and significant contribution to the development of the Hindu religion, spirituality and Sanskrit as well.. Whether this Sanskrit is the source of all languages is at the moment boisterous speculation and needs more study.. The Hindu scriptures donot talk of giving away free spiritual, linguistic knowledge to world all over.. so, even in that aspect, we are confined to Bharatha Varsha and odd expeditions South of Asia and into Europe for explorations... No way suggesting a mass influence on the world... I dont want to say Hinduism is the origin of all religions, Sanskrit mother of all languages and so on... My point is Hindu religion is entirely Indian, (in the sense of Bharatha Varsha) surely blended with learnings by our sages from different parts they visited , and Sanskrit is a language we created.. then wrote several thousands of volumes of texts..the Upanishads, Nishads, the Vedas and many more... Donot impose West on us... when the truth, and our own scriptures, says otherwise...
Sad it was not... it will never be, because of political reasons.. The words from the Quran, the Avestan texts or the Bible will be taken for reference, but Hindu texts ignored.. why?
Yes, it belongs to Pakistan.. materially..the land belongs to you and you are the immediate succesors of the people who lived their.. but the legacy has always been followed by us.. we on a daily basis perform the similiar rituals that the people in these sites used to perform 5000 years ago, we believed the same spiritual path, the same representations of the supreme power whom we refer to as gods.. while you don't.. nobody can take that away from us... We are happy with our legacy... we dont stake any claims on anybody else's land or property
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Posted By: ranjithvnambiar
Date Posted: 21-Jul-2010 at 00:11
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Dear
Balochi. Earlier
I posted a link ie http://www.omilosmeleton.gr/en/indology_en.asp -
which is a greek site and authored by Dr.Nicholas
Kazanas , a greek citizen and a British subject.In what respect are you calling
him a hindu nationalist..? Second
link I posted is http://sites.google.com/site/r2dnainfo/R2-Home/Aryans/reasons-why-the-aryan-invasion-theory - which
is a site which contains the details of studies carried out by several
geneticists of different nationalities. Or do you mean to call people of all
nationalities, (except a few which only you know) as Hindu nationalists..? What
is the basis of your claim..? Third
site http://www.cycleoftime.com/articles_view.php?codArtigo=54 -
is authored by Simone boger who is a Brazilian citizen and a freelane
journalist who had worked for a number of media outlets,
including Globonews TV, the BBC World Service, Deutsche Welle and a variety of magazines and
newspapers. How come you call her a
Hindu Nationalist..? What is wrong with you..? What makes you so distinct & qualified enough to throw allegations against them..? |
Posted By: ranjithvnambiar
Date Posted: 21-Jul-2010 at 05:36
Apart from Airyanam vaejo it speaks about a Hapta-Hendu too.These two are refered as two of the sixteen iranian lands in their history of migration in their scripture Vendidad.The Iranian homelands Airyanam
Vaejo, described as too cold in its
10-months-long winter, andHapta-Hendu, described as rendered too hot for
men.The Hapta-Hendu is widely accepted by linguists as a cognate of Saptha Sindhu in Sanskrit.Sapta Sindhu as per present understanding is Sindhu(Indus) & its tributaries.That defnitely is in the east of Iran.If Iran is the final place where they settled then where did they migrate from...?
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Posted By: Ince
Date Posted: 21-Jul-2010 at 07:54
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I have a question, what is the view of Indian Nationalists regarding the Mittani? They are believed to have been Sindi in origin and are still some Kurdish tribes by the name of Sindi and Mattin that exist today. Also Kurds have some high frequanceys of Haplogroup R2 8% among Anatolian Kurds and 40% among Georgian Kurds who are much smaller in numbers and range in the thousands where as Anatolian Kurds range in the millions. ------------- |
Posted By: Vivekanand
Date Posted: 21-Jul-2010 at 10:40
Don't know what Indian Nationalist, whoever they are  , would think of Mittani...
I have not read of any mention of Mittani in Hindu scriptures, pre-vedic or vedic ones.. I checked Wikipedia on Mittani.. but there is no mention of the Sindi origin of the Mittani Culture.. Do you have know any website where I could learn more on this topic.... |
Posted By: Ince
Date Posted: 21-Jul-2010 at 15:37
The Mittani been Indo-Aryan in origin is included in the Wiki article and some websites on the web. As for the sindi been the Mittani. I have come across some sites that make that claim example here http://www.interfaith.org/hinduism/origins/
Also the Kurdish religion Yezdi is believed to have been influenced by the Mittani and some believe it is similar to Hindu, for example here Secret Hinduism in middle-east still surviving from ancient times http://secretmiddleeasthinduism.blogspot.com/ ------------- |
Posted By: Vivekanand
Date Posted: 21-Jul-2010 at 22:15
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@Ince... Thanks for the interfaith.org link.. Apart from the aspect you present..It reinstate the faith in my learnings that the Aryan Invasion Theory was absolute political nonsense.. Yes.. I have heard about Yezidi.. their Taus Melech temple in Lalesh... but never about Mittani... Its intriguiging.. I saw some youtube videos of Yezidi temple at Lalesh, Iraq... it looks similiar to any olden day Hindu temple.. Their fire worship... worship of the peocock angle... Hindu's Worship Murugan/Skandar/Kathir (all same God with different names :-)) who is almost identical in being a knowledge giver ( Gnanavel, is is another name, Spear of Knowledge) and rides a peacock.. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r6noBWRG-3k - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r6noBWRG-3k He is supposed to have circled the earth in search of the fruit of knowledge... Now, Yezidi also believe their Melech Taus landed upon their region while circling the earth... Amazing similarity... Seeks more research... In fact, lot of research is going on this aspect as we speak.. This can be one missing link that can bridge the gap.. I came across Yezidi while, reading about Gobleki Tepe, the ancient 8000 BC temple unearthed in Urfa, south Turkey... It talks of a temple , perhaps the worlds oldest unearthed temple with strange stone carvings.. of the lizard like reptile and several pillars... leaving the archealogical world again back to square one.. There is so much more to learn... |
Posted By: Quaere Verum
Date Posted: 23-Jul-2010 at 10:06
To my knowledge Vidaevadata (Vendidad) does not talk about where Iranian peoples immigrated from, but it implies the lands finally inhabited by Iranian peoples (or explicitly the lands created by Ahura Mazda) when it makes mention of those sixteen lands including Hapta Hyndu. ------------- Blessed are the meek |
Posted By: Quaere Verum
Date Posted: 23-Jul-2010 at 10:12
Brother I just sought it and I got nothing specific about Yezidi religion or Yezidi Kurds being Indian in origin. Seemingly there are no reliable materials for such a talk. ------------- Blessed are the meek |
Posted By: Quaere Verum
Date Posted: 23-Jul-2010 at 10:37
As far as I know there is nothing reliable to connect Yezidi creed to an assumed Indian origin. In practice Yezdanism is as Indian as Hinduism is Iranian (or probably even in a lesser degree, since the word Hindu itself is kind of an Iranian equivalent of Sanskrit Sindu*). That is to say there are only Indo-Iranian elements to be shared in common. As a matter of fact Yezidi religion shares explicit similarities with Zoroastrianism-a famous Iranian creed in which fire plays a truly eminent role.
Yezidi Kurds do not worship any peafowl at all. They only venerate an angel (perhaps in its Abrahamic significance) who is often supposed to be a fallen one (the same as Lucifer in Abrahamic religions) but this time they have got another story in which he (Melek Tawis) eventually receives the divine redemption. Tawisi Melek does not ride a peacock but is always depicted as a peacock that to me reminds a Semitic deity namely Adra Melech which is also depicted as half-peacock (in spite of the fact that Arabic melek is a cognate of Hebrew melech).
There are clearly no exclusive likenesses between Yezidi and Indian religions out of common Indo-Iranian characteristics. Rumored assumptions implying an Idnian origin for Yezidanism or Yezidi Kurds are based on materials which obviously suffer from reliablity gap.
Was that temple a Yezidi one?!
------------- Blessed are the meek |
Posted By: Quaere Verum
Date Posted: 23-Jul-2010 at 11:17
As far as I know Xorasan is combined of xwar (sun) and if I am nots mistaken a root "as-" from Parthian "asan-*" ~ "seem, appear" rather than being related to Xawrusa or something.
I had not heard of Xawarva within Persian vocabulary. But as a matter of fact in Kirmanji Kurdish there is Hwerawa or Xwerawa (in Southern dialects) and Rojhawa (in Central and Northern ones) which are respectively combined of hwer / rojh (sun) and "awa". The later word, awa, means disappeared or vanished as well as the verb awa bun is used in sense of to disappear / to vanish.
By the way Persian "xavar" mostly means "east" and if I am not mistaken its etymology has nothing to do with a presumed Avestan "hvara-ava".
New Persian baxtar is most likely a cognate of Avestan apaxtar, though I have not heard of it being used in sense of "east" but only "west". Brother, Kermanshah was periodically named Baxtaran because of some political regards and the designation was expiclity due to the fact that Kermanshah is located on the west of Iran. That is to say the word baxtar is not used in sense of west because Kermanshah is located on the western Iran. ------------- Blessed are the meek |
Posted By: Maggie
Date Posted: 26-Jul-2018 at 17:17
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Hi everyone... I am pretty new here. This is my first post. I'm thinking of getting a tattoo (please do not laugh :P ) that reads "dog, best companion with eternal love" and I would love it to be in Avestan language. I have done lots of research and have found each word's letters in Avestan Dictionary (Dog, Companion, Love, forever): span [-]: m. dog airyêmâ [airyaman]: 6 (N) companion, friend (hz1) kaiti [-]: f. love, affection, friendship (k122) ýavaêtâtaêca [ýavaêtât]: 14 (D) f. forever (k423) Using the Avestan alphabet for each letter, it turned into the following image. Can someone please check to see if it's written correctly? No one wants a misspelled tattoo on their body ;) Greatly appreciate it!
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