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Save Xingu peoples from Destruction!

Printed From: History Community ~ All Empires
Category: Regional History or Period History
Forum Name: History of the Americas
Forum Discription: The Americas: History from pre-Colombian times to the present
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Topic: Save Xingu peoples from Destruction!
Posted By: Carcharodon
Subject: Save Xingu peoples from Destruction!
Date Posted: 13-May-2009 at 11:28
Save Xingu peoples from Destruction!
 
http://www.thepetitionsite.com/1/save-xingu-peoples-from-destruction - http://www.thepetitionsite.com/1/save-xingu-peoples-from-destruction
 
Quote from the petitionsite:
 
"The native indigenous people of the Xingu river of the Amazon Rainforest are being threatened with destruction. These people have lived in Xingu river for thousands of years in a sustainable manner with the beautiful rainforest which they co-exist with and provides them with what they need. They depend on fish from the Xingu river and from the lands which surround it to grow their crops. We would be taking away the ability of these people to feed themselves, and destroying their traditional way of life as they have lived for thousands years.
These are some of the last remaining pre-columbian people, who still live the way they did before arrival of Europeans, who have escaped European conquest, until now. We have lost and disrupted the traditional way of life of most native peoples in the past, it is now time to not repeat the wrongs of the past. All of these things are being threatened, and the traditional way of life and culture of some of the last indigenous people on this planet. This is as a result of a massive dam project which could decimate fish populations in their river and destroy 400 square kilometers of the very rainforests that they depend on for survival. For too long we have caused the native traditional peoples such as this to vanish from the earth, and their culture and way of life.
It is now time we do the right thing to make up for hundreds of years of wrongs, now, and protect these last indigenous that remain now. These people have lived in this area for thousands of years and the river and land belongs to them.

The Brazilian government is planning to build what would be the world%uFFFDs third largest dam on the Xingu River in the Brazilian Amazon. The Xingu River in northeast Brazil is a tributary of the Amazon River. The Belo Monte Dam, meant principally to fuel the expansion of aluminum foundries and other industrial plants in the Amazon, would require diverting nearly the entire flow of the Xingu, drying up the Big Bend of the Xingu and its tributary, the Bacaj%uFFFD, home to hundreds of indigenous people. Native people upstream would also be affected by the dam%uFFFDs impacts on fish stocks, their principal food source.

In May, one thousand indigenous people, in addition to social movements and environmentalists gathered in the town of Altamira, on the Xingu River, to protest the plans for Belo Monte and other dams on the Xingu. In the Xingu Forever Alive letter, they stated "We will not accept the construction of dams, large or small, on the Xingu and its tributaries". The Amazon basin with its intact rainforests and rivers is a critical ecosystem that must remain intact for the Planet to remain inhabitable. Please tell Brazil%uFFFDs President Lula and other decision makers in the Brazilian government that you support the position of indigenous peoples of the rainforest - that Brazil has better ways of providing its future energy needs than destroying the mighty Xingu River. The plans for the dams should be cancelled."

http://www.thepetitionsite.com/1/save-xingu-peoples-from-destruction - http://www.thepetitionsite.com/1/save-xingu-peoples-from-destruction





Replies:
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 13-May-2009 at 13:59
Indigenous people should demand a good compensation. They could improve theirs lifes with the building of than dam. Native people aren't just curiousities for tourist to see and appreciate theirs "traditional" ways of life. To protect trees, just say so, but people is people and they shouldn't get stocked in prehistory. They need medicine, education, work, access to universities, etc. What matter is that they benefit from the change.

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Posted By: Carcharodon
Date Posted: 15-May-2009 at 12:48
Mostly the indigenous peoples are the last who will benefit from exploitation of natural resources and large scale changes in their environment. Mostly they are simply driven away from their lands and ends up in some sort of slum with powerty and a large amount of social problems and illnesses as a result.
The dam doesn´t just affect the indigenous peoples, it affects climate, environment and other things so also other groups of people will be negatively affected (one such effect is the large output of methane gas from rottening plant matter in the dams which affects climate on regional and maybe a global scale).
Today there are a lot of alternative energy sources one can use instead of the hopelessly antiquated use of dams.
And the Xingu people can of cource get medicine, education, work (todiy the actually have work,they work in  the context of their own way of living with farming, fishing, hunting and similar) and access to universities without a dam, it´s just a matter of priorities from the government and similar institutions.
The main aim to build the powerplant is not to help the indigenous people adapt to the modern worl, the main aim is to get energy that can feed aluminium smelting factories and other capitalsit exploitive enterprises, thus benefitting shareholders and similar and not the local population.
Important is also to listen to the indigenous people themselves and thousands of them has risen in protest against the dam (or dams since more dams are planned after the big Belo Monte dam). They want to change in their own way and not be forced to change to powerty after having been thrown of their own land (as in so many cases before).
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Msqfw5nCmJo - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Msqfw5nCmJo
 


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 15-May-2009 at 13:51
What worries me it is that ecologist seems to be more interested in trees, boas and monkeys than people. On one side, Brazil needs those dams to progress, and the only alternative they have is nuclear power. On the other side, it is false natives always lost when in conflict with the power companies. I know a particular case where they got a lot of money for theirs properties and exchanged lands in return. A money that helped them to modernize.
Indigenous people in the jungle are not thrown into poverty. They already are poor. The solution is they get land in return and money. They have to fight for it with the help of outsiders, of course, but please, think in saving people and improving theirs lifestyle, not to preserve poors as extras for tourism routes!


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Posted By: Carcharodon
Date Posted: 15-May-2009 at 15:18
Originally posted by pinguin

What worries me it is that ecologist seems to be more interested in trees, boas and monkeys than people. On one side, Brazil needs those dams to progress, and the only alternative they have is nuclear power. On the other side, it is false natives always lost when in conflict with the power companies. I know a particular case where they got a lot of money for theirs properties and exchanged lands in return. A money that helped them to modernize.
Indigenous people in the jungle are not thrown into poverty. They already are poor. The solution is they get land in return and money. They have to fight for it with the help of outsiders, of course, but please, think in saving people and improving theirs lifestyle, not to preserve poors as extras for tourism routes!
 
One can always find some exceptions to every rule, but in general, historically speaking, the natives have mostly lost more than what they gained. There are even many examples of indigenous peoples that have not only lost their land but also their lives when they came in the way of different projects that was said to develop different areas or "civilize" the local population. One can for example mention the rubberboom, the gold mining, forest logging and petroleum hunting in the Amazon region that have cost countless of native lives.
 
Originally posted by pinguin

Indigenous people in the jungle are not thrown into poverty. They already are poor. The solution is they get land in return and money. They have to fight for it with the help of outsiders, of course, but please, think in saving people and improving theirs lifestyle, not to preserve poors as extras for tourism routes!
What worries me it is that ecologist seems to be more interested in trees, boas and monkeys than people. On one side, Brazil needs those dams to progress, and the only alternative they have is nuclear power. On the other side, it is false natives always lost when in conflict with the power companies. I know a particular case where they got a lot of money for theirs properties and exchanged lands in return. A money that helped them to modernize. 
 
 
Actually in most cases they have been thrown into much deeper powerty than before the exploitation. Not only do they loose land and the resources the land has given them, they also  loose social connection, lifestyle and purpose and meaning in their lives. Many are the indigenous peoples that ended up in the bottom of "modern" society in a life of criminality, drugs, discrimination, violence and early death. It is not often they get compensation in money and even more seldom in land. And if they get compensation in land it is often destroyed land, deprived of its natural resources.
 
And the objective of the dam is not so much to develop Brazil as a country. The prime motif is to fuel capitalist enterprices and generate money that goes into the accounts of private shareholders. The locals will not see so much of the money.
 
And of cource there are other sources of energy. A well thought of combination of different alternative energysources can create more energy than the dam. Actually the Belo Monte dam is not especially effective because of fluctuations over the year in the amount of water in the Xingu river. Because of this there are plans to build a whole system of dams that would drown immense areas of land.
 
And as stated, the increasing amount of greenhouse gases (most dangerous is methane which is 40 times more powerful than carbon dioxide) will have a both regional and global impact on the atmosphere and climate.
 
And once again, one most also take into consideration the will of the indigenous peoples themselves. It is their land! It is their lifestyle that is threatend!  You cannot just go against their wishes and kick them out of THEIR OWN LAND!
It is not just for fun that they are protesting against being robbed of their homeland.
 


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 15-May-2009 at 16:15

There is a further problem here. Green incorporated are using Indians for theirs own ideals. In my case in am concerned by the Indians only. I am for actions that help indigenous people to progress, and there are good examples of that. Even in Brazil there have been changes.

 


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Posted By: Carcharodon
Date Posted: 15-May-2009 at 19:18

Maybe some environmentalist, like so many other outsiders, are using the indigenous peoples for their own purposes. But much worse than the environmental groups are the churches, different capitalist companies and enterprises, farmers, settlers and the state who just want to change the indigenous peoples and incorporate them into the capitalist economy, so they can use them as cheap labour, costumers and faithful churchmemebers who support greedy priests and missionaries.

 

Many times environmental issues and indigenous issues are linked together. In many places the indigenous peoples are the guardians of still realatively undisturbed and clean environments. If one goes outside the land belonging to these peoples one is met by destruction and pollution.

 

And the indigenous peoples are changing, no culture stands totally still. But they don´t need others to tell them how they shall change, they don´t need others stealing and destroying their lands and forcing them to change in a way they didn´t choose themselves.

 

Just listen to what these peoples say, listen to their prostests against the destruction of their environment and the land where they have their homes. They themselves must descide when and how they shall change, not greedy capitalists or corrupt state officials.

 
Hopefully Brazil will realise the value of it´s native peoples and also learn to respect these peoples right to their own land and their own way of living.


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 15-May-2009 at 19:39
Brazil has a large history of crimes against indigenous people. I agree on that.
 
I just pointed to you that disgust me quite a bit the concern for the environment those rich children of the industrial world have, and even more those environmentalist causes are using the Indians to preserve the planet. Manipulating them as puppets.
 
I preffer those activists that go to courst and defend the indigenous rights there, that teach natives to read, laws, technology and science, and that have a practical approach to theirs problems.
This is what I mean. Natives should use modern tech to trace and protect theirs lands. They also have to get money and lands in return to theirs lands.
 
 
A dam could produce millions of dolars to take people of the region out of poverty. Use your lawyers to make they achieve that. Forget environmentalism and focus on people.
 
And natives need education. You can't expect they could defend of capitalism and the rotten western way of living continuing in the innocence of jungle living. Forget it, they have to be better prepared to fight for theirs rights in equality.
 
 
 
 


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Posted By: Carcharodon
Date Posted: 15-May-2009 at 20:17
Most of the indigenous peoples of the amazon are far more aware of their situation than many people believe. And a dam will not get them medicine, education, lawyers, advocates and so on. The money generated by the dam will end up in the pockets of rich capitalists leaving the indigenous peoples with nothing left but a destroyed land and a life in powerty and slum with sicknesses, drugs, criminality, prostitution and violence.
To believe other is just to buy the official propaganda of the state and of the capitalists who will benefit from the dam.


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 15-May-2009 at 20:44

If you want to help natives in the Amazon, move there. Get lawyers, etc. There are foreigners that have died defending theirs causes and legitimate rights. That's the only way to help.

Your anti-progress agenda doesn't make much sense. The dam will be build anyways. What has to be protected are native rights, and figure it out how they can get resources comming from this conflict.


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Posted By: Carcharodon
Date Posted: 15-May-2009 at 21:14

I have friends over there so I will probably go there in the near future.

 

How can one talk about native rights if the native peoples doesn´t even have the right to keep their own land? What kind of right is that? What kind of right is it to have ones land destroyed, polluted, drowned and stolen? What kind of rights is it to see greedy capitalists and corrupt officials invading ones homes and coming with a lot of false promises about money, education and other things that they never will keep?

 

The dam has actually been stopped once before and can be stopped again, the indigenous peoples and their friends will do whatever they can to see to that. The indigenous peoples are very determined in this matter. They have faced so much abuse, gotten so much taken away from them and been promised so many things, things that they never got, that they really are prepared to do everything possible to stop the destruction of their homes, culture and life.

And they educate themselves, together with other indigenous groups, and other friends, so they will not be victims of the governments (and it´s allies) deceit and lies.

And there are actually a lot of truly progressive people that are prepared to help them in their struggle.



Posted By: Carcharodon
Date Posted: 15-May-2009 at 21:15
 
 
http://www.thepetitionsite.com/1/save-xingu-peoples-from-destruction - http://www.thepetitionsite.com/1/save-xingu-peoples-from-destruction


Posted By: drgonzaga
Date Posted: 15-May-2009 at 21:44
The Xingu "peoples" is quite an euphemism. As for this project it goes back to 1989 with the announcement of various damning projects and is a particular bugbear of the Kayapó. None of the inhabitants of the Xingu valley are "isolates" and have long been in contact with first the colonial regimes and later the national governments. In fact, much of the region is divided into various "homelands" and firmly connected to the FUNAI bureaucracy.
There is little novelty here even on the Internet since the "saving" has been going on for quite some time as witnessed by this site:
 
http://www.survival-international.org/news/1577 - http://www.survival-international.org/news/1577
 
I heartlly suspect that the Amerinds are being "exploited" by the international do-gooder squad as a good source for money raising. After all, more anthropologists have traipsed through the Xingu valley since 1949 than ever did any intrepid bandeirante.
 


Posted By: Carcharodon
Date Posted: 15-May-2009 at 21:48
This is the words of the indigenous peoples themselves in a proclamation for their rights:
 
"

Xingu Forever Alive May 26, 2008

 

We, representatives of indigenous peoples, river bank dwellers, gatherers of forest products, family farmers, urban dwellers, social movements, and non-governmental organizations of the Xingu basin met in the Xingu Forever Alive encounter, in the city of Altamira, Par%uFFFD state, Brazilian Amazon, between May 19 and 23, 2008 to discuss, recognize, and repudiate the threats to the river which is ours, and of which we are part, in order to reaffirm the type of development that we want for our region.

We who are the ancestral inhabitants of the Xingu Basin, whose course and whose tributaries we navigated to meet here, from where we catch the fish that nourish us, on the purity of whose water we depend on to be able to drink without worrying about getting sick, on the regime of whose floods and ebb we depend for our agriculture, whose forest products we collect, and which we pay reverence to and whose beauty and generosity we celebrate with every new day; our culture, our spirituality, and our survival are deeply rooted in the Xingu, and we depend on it for our existence.

We who have maintained and protected our forests and the natural resources of our territories in the midst of the destruction which has bled the Amazon feel that our dignity has been demeaned and that we have not been respected by the Brazilian Government and private dam-building groups planning dams on the Xingu and its tributaries, principally Belo Monte Dam. At no time have they asked us what we want for our future. At no time have they asked us what we think regarding the building of hydroelectric dams, and not even the indigenous people were consulted %u2013 a right guaranteed to them by law. Despite this fact, Belo Monte has been presented by the government as a done deal, even though its viability has been questioned.

We are aware that diverting the Xingu at its Big Bend will cause permanent flooding upstream, displacing thousands of river bank families and residents of the city of Altamira, affecting agriculture, extractivism, and biodiversity, and flooding our beaches. On the other hand, the dam would practically dry up more than 100 kilometers of the river, making navigation, fishing, and the use of water impossible for many communities, including various indigenous lands and reserves.

We are also concerned about the construction of Small Hydroelectric Dams (PCHs), on the rivers at the headwaters of the Xingu. Some have already been built and others have been authorized, without any evaluation of the impacts that these dams will cause to the 14 indigenous peoples living in the Xingu Indigenous Park. These dams profane their sacred sites and can destroy the fish which nourish them.

Therefore, we, Brazilian citizens, publicly communicate to our society and to our federal, state, and local government authorities our decision to defend our rights and those of our children and grandchildren to live with dignity, to keep our homes and our territories, our cultures and ways of life, honoring our ancestors as well who left us a healthy environment. We will not accept the construction of dams, large or small, on the Xingu and its tributaries, and we will continue fighting against the imposition of a development model which is socially unjust and environmentally destructive, and which today is represented by the increase in the illegal grabbing of public lands, by illegal logging operations, by clandestine gold mines which kill our rivers, and by the expansion of agricultural monocultures and extensive cattle ranching which cut down our forests.

We, who know the river at its every bend, wish to tell Brazilian society and to demand from public authorities the implementation of our development project for the region, which includes:

1. The creation of a forum bringing together the peoples of the basin in order to permit a permanent conversation regarding the future of our river, eventually creating a Xingu River Basin Committee;

2. The consolidation and effective protection of Conservation Units and Indigenous Lands and the investigation and legalization of land titles on public lands in the Xingu basin;

3. The immediate creation of the Middle Xingu Extractive Reserve;

4. The immediate demarcation of the Cachoeira Seca Indigenous Territory, and the fair resettlement of its non-indigenous inhabitants, as well as the removal of invaders of the Parakan%uFFFD Indigenous Territory;

5. The taking of measures which effectively halt deforestation, including illegal logging and land grabbing;

6. Additional public policies providing incentives for sustainable extraction of forest products and support for family farming on an agroecological basis and which value and stimulate the commercialization of forest products;


7. Public policies capable of promoting the improvement and the installation of urban water and sewer treatment systems.

8. An increase in public policies to meet the demand for healthcare, education, transportation, and public safety, in a manner consistent with our reality;

9. Development of public policies which broaden and democratize social communication media;

10. More public policies for recuperation of gallery forests and areas degraded by ranching, logging, and mining;

11. Prohibiting the damming of the Xingu headwaters, as already took place with the construction of the Paranatinga II small dam on the Culuene River;

12. The effective protection of the great biodiversity corridor formed by the indigenous lands and conservation units of the Xingu.

We, who have protected our Xingu River do not accept the invisibility with which they wish to impose decisions upon us, nor the way we are treated with disdain by public officials. The way we are presenting ourselves to the country is through our dignity, the knowledge we have inherited, and the teachings by which we can transmit the respect that we demand.

This is our desire, this is our struggle. We want the Xingu forever alive.

 

Altamira, May 23, 2008. "

http://www.thepetitionsite.com/1/save-xingu-peoples-from-destruction - http://www.thepetitionsite.com/1/save-xingu-peoples-from-destruction

 



Posted By: Carcharodon
Date Posted: 15-May-2009 at 22:08
Originally posted by drgonzaga

. None of the inhabitants of the Xingu valley are "isolates" and have long been in contact with first the colonial regimes and later the national governments. In fact, much of the region is divided into various "homelands" and firmly connected to the FUNAI bureaucracy.
 
Noone says they are isolates. They have never been isolates. Before they got into contact with the first Europeans they had a lot of extensive contacts with each other (the density of the population was larger in those days). Later they got in contact and got decimated and exploited by European invaders who also spread diseases that severly reduced the population.
 
Originally posted by drgonzaga

There is little novelty here even on the Internet since the "saving" has been going on for quite some time as witnessed by this site:
 
This is a part of an ongoing struggle against exploitation that the indigenous peoples have been fighting for many, many years.
 
 
Originally posted by drgonzaga

I heartlly suspect that the Amerinds are being "exploited" by the international do-gooder squad as a good source for money raising. After all, more anthropologists have traipsed through the Xingu valley since 1949 than ever did any intrepid bandeirante.
 
 
The do-gooders "exploitation" is nothing compared with the exploitation by different companies who want to exploit natural resources, corrupt officials who want to have a part of the big Amazonian cake, large scale farmers who want to free some land for their farms and plantations, and many others who participate in the plundering of this area.


Posted By: Carcharodon
Date Posted: 15-May-2009 at 22:13
Here is a little film where the Kuikuro people present themselves (including some words about earlier contacts with Europeans):
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T4r6atkWylk - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T4r6atkWylk


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 15-May-2009 at 23:28
Originally posted by drgonzaga

...
I heartlly suspect that the Amerinds are being "exploited" by the international do-gooder squad as a good source for money raising. After all, more anthropologists have traipsed through the Xingu valley since 1949 than ever did any intrepid bandeirante.


I suspect that as well. Money raising ecologist groups, do-gooders, have abused of many Amerindian groups.

After all, there is quite few really uncontacted Indians in  the Amazons. Most are under the protection of Brazil and other governments already. Now, that doesn't mean the fight for justice should stop.

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Posted By: Carcharodon
Date Posted: 16-May-2009 at 01:29
As I stated before, the "do gooders" are not the people who abuse the indigenous peoples, it is the "do-baders", the so called developers,  who come to steal and destroy the indigenous peoples land.
 
And long time before any so called "do-gooders" entered the stage the indigenous peoples also fought the people that wanted to steal from them and enslave them. Now they got themselves some allies, and those allies are being called a lot of nicnames and their motifs are always questioned. Better to question the motifs of those who want to drown the indigenous peoples under a gigantic dam.
 
In fact some of the allies are indigenous peoples from other parts of the Americas and even from other continents, people who share similar experiences and who can give good advice and contribute with good ideas about how to handle this situation.


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 16-May-2009 at 02:06
The "do-gooders" have done more that a wrong against natives, either wanted it or not. For instance, many good intended missioners infected natives the contagious disease they carried, for which natives had no immunity. Also, I remember a French adventurer that wanted to build a Mapuche state in Chile, and that was the reason why the Mapuches lost its independence.
In short. Europeans should stay home. There are people in the Americas helping the indigenous people already.

Look at these projects, for instance. These are people that are really helping natives with the Shaman Apprentice program:

http://www.amazonteam.org/newsletter/newsletter_0707.html#7/07-9



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Posted By: Carcharodon
Date Posted: 16-May-2009 at 02:25
I usually dont count missionaries as "do gooders" I would rather call many of them "do-baders" since they in the the deep of their minds are hostile to indigenous religion and beliefs and want to replace it with christianity.
 
Today more and more indigenous peoples from different countries are starting to cooperate and help each other with advice, ideas and other kinds of support. Many of these peoples has shared similar experiences of abuse, land theft, discrimination and similar.
 
And yes, the Europeans should have stayed in Europe in the first place but as it is now sometimes people on other continents are more helpful to indigenous peoples than some of the American peoples who just see them as obstacles in developing their economies and exploiting natural resources.


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 16-May-2009 at 02:41
Well, ecologists usually are as dogmatic as missioners. Christians, communists, liberals and ecologists are all dogmatic people that put theirs ideologies before the Indians.
I agree than Indigenous people and good willing people can collaborate in the Indigenous causes, given they are focus in the problems of the natives, and not in foreign ideologies.
With respect to American peoples (people of the Americas, not only US) to be hostile to Indigenous you are wrong. Some are, indeed, but the large majority defend the Indigenous causes. And while some outsiders just have woke up to these problems, they should realize locals have decades and even centuries fighting side by side with the indigenous people for the rights of all.





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Posted By: drgonzaga
Date Posted: 16-May-2009 at 02:47
Originally posted by Carcharodon

No one says they are isolates. They have never been isolates. Before they got into contact with the first Europeans they had a lot of extensive contacts with each other (the density of the population was larger in those days). Later they got in contact and got decimated and exploited by European invaders who also spread diseases that severly reduced the population.
...
The do-gooders "exploitation" is nothing compared with the exploitation by different companies who want to exploit natural resources, corrupt officials who want to have a part of the big Amazonian cake, large scale farmers who want to free some land for their farms and plantations, and many others who participate in the plundering of this area.
 
My experience on Brazil goes back to the 1950s and the famous "Trans-Amazonian highway project" and in terms of intensity I personally knew many of the original "defenders" of the Amazonian Amerinds from the Villa-Boa brothers to Charles Wagley [who made his career in anthropology on the base of the Tupian experience]. In this sense, a little socio-cultural context for the Tupians is in order [recall Melville's novel Typee?]. In many ways, the approach undertaken by these "do-gooders" is not only condescending but demeaning as well since opposition to development projects, dams, and all other such type of "economic" improvements is part and parcel of Western life...here in a fit of Bono balderdash one receives the caricature drawn straight from the noble savage stereotype. 
 
I suppose this site is a dastardly conspiracy fomented by the greedy capitalists:
 
http://www.funai.gov.br/funai.htm - http://www.funai.gov.br/funai.htm
 
By the way, the population of the Xingu valley today is far greater than it ever was in the pre-colombian period in terms of the Amerind.


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 16-May-2009 at 02:51
In my country, foreigners that go to teach guerilla tactics to Mapuche extremists have been deported and even jailed.
That kind of help is not needed. In the last land problem for the building of a dam on Pehuenche territory, some natives got half a million dollars for theirs properties... no kidding. And they even got land on return.


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Posted By: Carcharodon
Date Posted: 16-May-2009 at 02:59
Originally posted by pinguin

Well, ecologists usually are as dogmatic as missioners. Christians, communists, liberals and ecologists are all dogmatic people that put theirs ideologies before the Indians.
 
So are capitalists in their stereotyped thinking that exploitation of natural resources and creating huge industrial projects will solve all problems.
 
 
Originally posted by pinguin


I agree than Indigenous people and good willing people can collaborate in the Indigenous causes, given they are focus in the problems of the natives, and not in foreign ideologies.
With respect to American peoples (people of the Americas, not only US) to be hostile to Indigenous you are wrong. Some are, indeed, but the large majority defend the Indigenous causes.
 
It is ofcourse different in different countries and in different parts of those countries. Unfortunately in many places one meets a lot of discrimination and stereotypes about the indigenous peoples, as for example in Colombia where many people call them "animalitos" and other demeaning words. Mostly though one meets a lot of ignorance, many people in for example Brazil havent a clue how the indigenous peoples live or what problems they face.

Originally posted by pinguin

And while some outsiders just have woke up to these problems, they should realize locals have decades and even centuries fighting side by side with the indigenous people for the rights of all.
 
Unfortunately there are also decades of locals fighting against and abusing the indigenous peoples.




Posted By: Carcharodon
Date Posted: 16-May-2009 at 03:16
Originally posted by drgonzaga

My experience on Brazil goes back to the 1950s and the famous "Trans-Amazonian highway project" and in terms of intensity I personally knew many of the original "defenders" of the Amazonian Amerinds from the Villa-Boa brothers to Charles Wagley [who made his career in anthropology on the base of the Tupian experience]. In this sense, a little socio-cultural context for the Tupians is in order [recall Melville's novel Typee?]. In many ways, the approach undertaken by these "do-gooders" is not only condescending but demeaning as well since opposition to development projects, dams, and all other such type of "economic" improvements is part and parcel of Western life...here in a fit of Bono balderdash one receives the caricature drawn straight from the noble savage stereotype. 
 
In the case of the Belo Monte dam much of the initiative to oppose to the building of the dam actually comes from the indigenous peoples themselves. They are often asking visitors and others to raise this matter in different fora and also to let this matter be known in other countries, raising opinion also there.
http://www.funai.gov.br/funai.htm -

Originally posted by drgonzaga

By the way, the population of the Xingu valley today is far greater than it ever was in the pre-colombian period in terms of the Amerind.

Recent excavations and surveys suggest that the region was much denser populated than earlier believed. Large systems of raised fields, channels, ponds and semi urban centers has been found which suggest a flourishing garden culture around 1250 - 1600 which was severly decimated through contact with the Europeans and their dieases, and later abuse, slavery and destruction. It is estimated that maybe so much as 90 percent of the population in these areas was viped out during those years of first contact.


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 16-May-2009 at 05:01
Originally posted by Carcharodon

...
Recent excavations and surveys suggest that the region was much denser populated than earlier believed. Large systems of raised fields, channels, ponds and semi urban centers has been found which suggest a flourishing garden culture around 1250 - 1600 which was severly decimated through contact with the Europeans and their dieases, and later abuse, slavery and destruction. It is estimated that maybe so much as 90 percent of the population in these areas was viped out during those years of first contact.
 
You shouldn't believe so easily the first theory that appears in the newspapers. The archaeology of the Americas is plenty of Indiana Jones like people with balooney ideas. Before scientific checkup those things are nonsense.
Besides, if you consider that 1/3 of the genetic makeup of Brazilians is Amerindian, then the hypotesis of a masive decline in population, of that magical 90% figure that's so in fashion today, is hard to support


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Posted By: drgonzaga
Date Posted: 16-May-2009 at 15:19
Originally posted by Carcharodon

In the case of the Belo Monte dam much of the initiative to oppose to the building of the dam actually comes from the indigenous peoples themselves. They are often asking visitors and others to raise this matter in different fora and also to let this matter be known in other countries, raising opinion also there.
http://www.funai.gov.br/funai.htm -
...
Recent excavations and surveys suggest that the region was much denser populated than earlier believed. Large systems of raised fields, channels, ponds and semi urban centers has been found which suggest a flourishing garden culture around 1250 - 1600 which was severly decimated through contact with the Europeans and their dieases, and later abuse, slavery and destruction. It is estimated that maybe so much as 90 percent of the population in these areas was viped out during those years of first contact.
 
Stay away from ahistorical generalizations, Carcharodon. Much of the rhetoric being gassed over the electrification of the Xingu valley repeats the old cannards marshalled against the Brazilian government ever since the days of Getulio Vargas and his policies on state development and the integration of the national territory. Brazilia does not sit where it does by happenstance.
 
As for the settlement patterns of the Tupian Amerind in a riverine environment with dangerously thin top soil and its slash-and-burn characteristics, such hardly promoted the establishment of large populations in a fixed area. Face it, the present political structure of the Xingu Amerinds identify them as integrated populations engaging in political lobbying for the best "deal" possible while manipulating the "usual suspects" in an international campaign--call it a repeat of that now discredited Guatemalan woman from a few years back.
 
Let's face it, Brazil has reacted in the same manner the Chinese responded to all the do-gooders ballyhoo of the Three Gorges dam project and the dramatic orchestrations set into play by internationalists with their own agendas. After all, wouldn't the Amerinds really be truly happy by remaining in their marginalized "reservations"? Heaven help them if they fell prey to McDonalds over bananas and tarot roots!
 
http://understory.ran.org/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2008/05/group-shot-with-xavante.jpg">Leila, Scott, Zach and Xavante youth
 
Wonder how the Kayapo pictured here liked the the T-shirts and flip-flops distributed by their San Francisco (CA) visitors?
 
 


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 16-May-2009 at 15:46

Traditionals ways of living must change for people to progress. This is the way Latin Americans want to see theirs Indians. That they have the oportunities they deserve.

Colombia, Leticia:
 
 
Iquitos, Peru
http://www.matses.org/adopt-indigenous-school-esp.html - http://www.matses.org/adopt-indigenous-school-esp.html
 
Venezuela, billingual literature,
 

 
Getting organized against thugs (Ecuador)
 
La comunidad de Sibayacu en la escuela
 
But mainly, going to School.
 
Brazil
 
 
And with respect to the preservation of the native culture, that can be done as well, without keeping people stuck in the jungle. Here, children listening to a shaman about the medical properties of plants. There are organized programs these days that are preserving that knowledge, because people is going to change.
 
Teaching about plants
 
 


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Posted By: Carcharodon
Date Posted: 16-May-2009 at 17:15
Originally posted by pinguin

 You shouldn't believe so easily the first theory that appears in the newspapers. The archaeology of the Americas is plenty of Indiana Jones like people with balooney ideas. Before scientific checkup those things are nonsense.
Besides, if you consider that 1/3 of the genetic makeup of Brazilians is Amerindian, then the hypotesis of a masive decline in population, of that magical 90% figure that's so in fashion today, is hard to support
 
One does not not have to read the theories in the newspapers, one can read scientific articles and reports instead, that is more rewarding.
The decline in population by 90 percent probably doesn´t count for all areas of Brazil, just some areas. Brazil is a big country and the demographic circumstances and demographic decline could of course vary.
 
Interesting article about excavations in the Xingu valley:
Michael J. Heckenberger et al (2008). Pre-Columbian Urbanism, Anthropogenic Landscapes, and the Future of the Amazon. SCIENCE 29 AUGUST 2008 VOL 321
 
Heckenberger conducted surveys and excavation in close cooperation with the Kuikuro indignous community.


Posted By: Carcharodon
Date Posted: 16-May-2009 at 17:22
Originally posted by pinguin

Traditionals ways of living must change for people to progress. This is the way Latin Americans want to see theirs Indians. That they have the oportunities they deserve.
 
It´s not about what Latin Americans in general want, the most important thing is what the indigenous peoples themselves want.
And to many Latin Americans (especially those with finacial or political interests in different areas) don´t want to see any indigenous peoples att all, they just want to remove them in the name of economic development.
 
Originally posted by pinguin

And with respect to the preservation of the native culture, that can be done as well, without keeping people stuck in the jungle. Here, children listening to a shaman about the medical properties of plants. There are organized programs these days that are preserving that knowledge, because people is going to change.
 
Once again it must be the indigenous peoples themselves who descides what kind of change they want in their way of living.


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 16-May-2009 at 17:34

Indigenous people are Latin Americans, they are our people. We are indigenous at least in part, if you aren't aware of. Besides, it is disgusting the hypocrecy of activists comming from developed countries, that enjoy all the fruits of economic development, to teach lessons of poverty to natives. And also to tell our countries to stop to develop, while they consume more resources from the Earth than anyone else. Even more, the idea that our countries don't have people fighting with the indigenous for theirs rights is disgusting. The fight for rights of the poors in general, and the indigenous in particular, has been the cause of many guerrilla wars and injustices for more than a century, all over Latin America. These days people is a lot more concient in human rights, and also more educated, and the fight for the right things to do is stronger. In short, we don't need lessons. Not more, please.

With respect to traditional ways of lifes, why don't you live like your ancestors 5.000 years ago? Why some people can modernize and others should stay where they are to help tourism? Besides, do you know what indigenous people want? To live forever in poverty for the benefit of gringo tourists?
 
And yes, Indigenous should decide what they want, but to decide that they don't need the advice of people that grew up playing Nintendo and eating burgers at McDonals.
 
I opened a tread with a related topic. Medicine from the Amazons. You may be interested and contribute to it.
 
http://www.allempires.net/forum_posts.asp?TID=27218&PID=514003#514003 - http://www.allempires.net/forum_posts.asp?TID=27218&PID=514003#514003
 
 
 


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Posted By: Carcharodon
Date Posted: 16-May-2009 at 17:35
Originally posted by drgonzaga

 Stay away from ahistorical generalizations, Carcharodon. Much of the rhetoric being gassed over the electrification of the Xingu valley repeats the old cannards marshalled against the Brazilian government ever since the days of Getulio Vargas and his policies on state development and the integration of the national territory. Brazilia does not sit where it does by happenstance. 
 
And much of the political rethoric of the Brazilian state is the same as in all colonial enterprises there one tries to mask pure greed with terms like development, civilization, progress and other words of propaganda.
 
Originally posted by drgonzaga

As for the settlement patterns of the Tupian Amerind in a riverine environment with dangerously thin top soil and its slash-and-burn characteristics, such hardly promoted the establishment of large populations in a fixed area. Face it, the present political structure of the Xingu Amerinds identify them as integrated populations engaging in political lobbying for the best "deal" possible while manipulating the "usual suspects" in an international campaign--call it a repeat of that now discredited Guatemalan woman from a few years back. 
 
The research that shows a denser population in precolumbian Amazon than hitherto believd is just in its infancy but it seems that in many places the indigenous peoples had methods of enrichen the topsoil in different way. One of these methods was obviously a kind of slash and smolder technique that enrichened the soil with a charcoal-like substans.
And the farming seem to have been complemented by different kind of aquaculture, growing and keeping fish in systems of ponds and channels.
 
Originally posted by drgonzaga

Let's face it, Brazil has reacted in the same manner the Chinese responded to all the do-gooders ballyhoo of the Three Gorges dam project and the dramatic orchestrations set into play by internationalists with their own agendas. After all, wouldn't the Amerinds really be truly happy by remaining in their marginalized "reservations"? Heaven help them if they fell prey to McDonalds over bananas and tarot roots!
 
Just listen to the indigenous peoples own opinions about this dam, they are not particular fond of being driven away from their homes just for the sake of enrichen greedy capitalist entrepreneurs and state officials.


Posted By: Carcharodon
Date Posted: 16-May-2009 at 17:41
Originally posted by pinguin

Indigenous people are Latin Americans, they are our people. Besides, it is disgusting the hypocrecy of activists comming from developed countries, that enjoy all the fruits of economic development, to teach lessons of poverty to natives. Even more, the idea that our countries don't have people fighting with the indigenous for theirs rights is disgusting.
Besides, do you know what indigenous people want? To live forever in poverty for the benefit of gringo tourists?
 
Many Latin Americans don´t give a damn about indigenous peoples, they just want to get rid of them. And one can actually listen to indigenous peoples to find out what they want.
 
Originally posted by pinguin

And yes, Indigenous should decide what they want, but to decide they don't need the advice of people that grew up playing Nintendo and eating burgers at McDonals.
 
And even more they don´t need the advice of people who want to deprive them of their land and kick them into some awful Latino slum.
 
Originally posted by pinguin

I opened a tread with a related topic. Medicine from the Amazons. You may be interested and contribute to it. 
http://www.allempires.net/forum_posts.asp?TID=27218&PID=514003#514003 - http://www.allempires.net/forum_posts.asp?TID=27218&PID=514003#514003  
 
Sounds interesting, I shall check it out.


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 16-May-2009 at 17:46
Originally posted by Carcharodon

 
One does not not have to read the theories in the newspapers, one can read scientific articles and reports instead, that is more rewarding.
The decline in population by 90 percent probably doesn´t count for all areas of Brazil, just some areas. Brazil is a big country and the demographic circumstances and demographic decline could of course vary.
 
Interesting article about excavations in the Xingu valley:
Michael J. Heckenberger et al (2008). Pre-Columbian Urbanism, Anthropogenic Landscapes, and the Future of the Amazon. SCIENCE 29 AUGUST 2008 VOL 321
 
Heckenberger conducted surveys and excavation in close cooperation with the Kuikuro indignous community.
 
The way you phrase it, it doesn't make too much sense. What do you mean by a 90% decline? If in a small place, it could be. To descend from 5.000 people to 500 would be a 90% decline, indeed. Now, the Amazon these days support circa 700.000 natives. In historical times, considering all Brazil and sourrounding amazonian jungles, perhaps there were no more than 1.000.000 people in the whole area, which would make sense. If you have a town at that time with 10.000 people somewhere it would be, in fact, a large town.
 
For geographical reasons, and lifestyle, places like North American forests and deserts, the Amazon, and Patagonia, had very low densities at contact. Others, like Mexico, Central America and the Andes have large populations, but still no more than 1/10 of today densities.
 
Just consider why Portugueses brought Blacks to Brazil. The reason is simply they needed labour, and the local population was not enough. In the case of Peru or Mexico, local populations were a lot more abundant and not as many Africans were ever brought.
 
 
 
 


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Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 16-May-2009 at 17:53
Originally posted by Carcharodon

Many Latin Americans don´t give a damn about indigenous peoples, they just want to get rid of them. And one can actually listen to indigenous peoples to find out what they want.
 
 
There are bigots in here, like in any country, or your own country. However, most Latin Americans care for the Indians. Your accusation has no root, and shows a biass against Latinos. What do you believe we are?
 
Originally posted by Carcharodon

And even more they don´t need the advice of people who want to deprive them of their land and kick them into some awful Latino slum.
 
Our countries are Independent since long ago. We don't need more gringo interventions.
Besides, there is no way to stop the last Indigenous people that remain "pure" go into the general population.
 
Yes, there is poverty in Latin America, particularly in the Amazon. But that won't be a permanent condition, that's for sure. Our countries have progressed quite a bit in the last decades, education and standar of living have increased, and I hope not far from the future you won't find those poverty dramas that are shown so often in BBC.
 
 
 
 


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Posted By: Carcharodon
Date Posted: 16-May-2009 at 17:55
Originally posted by pinguin

The way you phrase it, it doesn't make too much sense. What do you mean by a 90% decline? If in a small place, it could be. To descend from 5.000 people to 500 would be a 90% decline, indeed. Now, the Amazon these days support circa 700.000 natives. In historical times, considering all Brazil and sourrounding amazonian jungles, perhaps there were no more than 1.000.000 people in the whole area, which would make sense. If you have a town at that time with 10.000 people somewhere it would be, in fact, a large town.
 
As for the Xingu valley, the new surveys suggest that the population there can have been so many as 50 000. After the contact with Europeans the population can have dropped to around 5000. After that the population can have recovered but later there was decline again because of warfare, slavery and other opression. Today there have been some recovery again, but no one knows for how long.
Decline of this sorts are not unique in the Amazon forests. Some peoples have vanished completely.
 
 
 
 


Posted By: Carcharodon
Date Posted: 16-May-2009 at 18:06
By the way, one of the reasons that the Xingu peoples turn to people from other countries and to different environmental, and other, organisations within and outside Brazil, is that they have notice that the Brazilian government doesn´t listen to them and also treats them with disrespect. They have noticed that the governments main concern is to support capitalist interests and exploitation. 


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 16-May-2009 at 18:13

I opened a thread on the topic here

http://www.allempires.net/forum_posts.asp?TID=27219&PID=514012#514012 - http://www.allempires.net/forum_posts.asp?TID=27219&PID=514012#514012
 


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Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 16-May-2009 at 18:15
Originally posted by Carcharodon

By the way, one of the reasons that the Xingu peoples turn to people from other countries and to different environmental, and other, organisations within and outside Brazil, is that they have notice that the Brazilian government doesn´t listen to them and also treats them with disrespect. They have noticed that the governments main concern is to support capitalist interests and exploitation. 
 
I am not against to presure Brazilian government, on the contrary. But the cause must be the Indians, not the environment.


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Posted By: Carcharodon
Date Posted: 16-May-2009 at 18:24

Of course the indians are most important, but the environment is not without concern (both in Brazil and in all other places in the world). If one totally destroys the environment the place will be uninhabitable for all people.



Posted By: Carcharodon
Date Posted: 16-May-2009 at 18:28
Originally posted by pinguin

I opened a thread on the topic here

http://www.allempires.net/forum_posts.asp?TID=27219&PID=514012#514012 - http://www.allempires.net/forum_posts.asp?TID=27219&PID=514012#514012
 
 
Interesting, here is also a thread about these topics:
 
 
http://www.allempires.net/forum_posts.asp?TID=27092 - http://www.allempires.net/forum_posts.asp?TID=27092


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 16-May-2009 at 19:52

Jesus! I forgot about that.



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Posted By: drgonzaga
Date Posted: 17-May-2009 at 03:23
Originally posted by Carcharodon

And much of the political rethoric of the Brazilian state is the same as in all colonial enterprises there one tries to mask pure greed with terms like development, civilization, progress and other words of propaganda.
--- 
The research that shows a denser population in precolumbian Amazon than hitherto believd is just in its infancy but it seems that in many places the indigenous peoples had methods of enrichen the topsoil in different way. One of these methods was obviously a kind of slash and smolder technique that enrichened the soil with a charcoal-like substans.
And the farming seem to have been complemented by different kind of aquaculture, growing and keeping fish in systems of ponds and channels.
---
Just listen to the indigenous peoples own opinions about this dam, they are not particular fond of being driven away from their homes just for the sake of enrichen greedy capitalist entrepreneurs and state officials.
 
The three statements above say more about their author's prejudices and biases than any Brazilian reality. President Lula da Silva can hardly be labeled a raping capitalist and the PSB is a member of the Socialist International. Further, the electrification project is a state enterprise and not an overweaning private conglomerate. Certainly a Brazilian caboclo in Matto Grosso would take issue with his being called an agent of "colonialism".
 
As for the supposition on population and settlements in the Amazon, just what part of the Amazon is making such a claim? Certainly Meggars and Evans way back when did good work on the Para estuary and we do have the old descriptions of Carvajal from the 16th century for the Amazon River proper, but we were not discussing the Xingu within Para but the Matto Grosso region of Kayapo predominance.Map - Click to zoom
 
Therein, internal migrations within a recognized territory permit marginal agriculture and given the nature of the region "fishing" is a seasonal endeavor. Large populations were never sustainable in the Upper Xingu. Read the publications of IBGE rather than the emotional bites of international organizations for the socio-geographic realities of the Brazilian interior. At least read Brazilian scholars on the Kayapo and Ge within a historical ambit:
 
Reinaldo Morales. The Nordeste Tradition (2006)
 
Carneiro da Cunha. Historia dos Indios no Brasil (1998)
 
Not that serious scholars are not aware of the distinctions (as with your efforts to coflate the Amazon with the Xingu). Here I quote Dr. June Hahner [2002]
 
In the sixteenth century in all areas of what is now Brazil, early European explorers were astonished at the density and diversity of Native populations. Peoples of the densely settled Amazon flood plain, with its rich soil and abundant fish, were sedentary horticulturalists living in complex societies with permanent, centralized political hierarchies headed by hereditary chiefs. Sixteenth-century European chroniclers reported on these societies' stratified political and economic organization, complex territorial arrangements, intensive cultivation, some animal domestication, and surplus economies with large networks of commercial and trade relations. In contrast, much of eastern Brazil--from the forests of what is now Mato Grosso State to the arid highlands and savannas that separate the southern Amazon basin from the Atlantic coast--was inhabited by nomadic hunters and foragers. These peoples were organized in small, highly mobile bands and ranged through huge areas of the interior to hunt, forage, trade, and make war on enemy groups. To the south were swidden agriculturalists who cultivated maize and who periodically moved their multi-family villages throughout a large region of tropical and subtropical coastal forests along the major rivers of the Paraná-Paraguay River system.


Posted By: Carcharodon
Date Posted: 17-May-2009 at 13:10
Originally posted by drgonzaga

The three statements above say more about their author's prejudices and biases than any Brazilian reality. President Lula da Silva can hardly be labeled a raping capitalist and the PSB is a member of the Socialist International. Further, the electrification project is a state enterprise and not an overweaning private conglomerate. Certainly a Brazilian caboclo in Matto Grosso would take issue with his being called an agent of "colonialism".
 
Still the government refuses to listen to the indigenous peoples concerning tha dam. It seems that prestige has got into the projectt and also expactations of huge profit for officials and capitalists alike.
 
The dam is a state enterprise but its purpose is also to feed private inustrial enterprises with energy.
 
And by tradition settlers have many times been the forerunners of colonialism.
 
Originally posted by drgonzaga

As for the supposition on population and settlements in the Amazon, just what part of the Amazon is making such a claim? Certainly Meggars and Evans way back when did good work on the Para estuary and we do have the old descriptions of Carvajal from the 16th century for the Amazon River proper, but we were not discussing the Xingu within Para but the Matto Grosso region of Kayapo predominance. 
Therein, internal migrations within a recognized territory permit marginal agriculture and given the nature of the region "fishing" is a seasonal endeavor. Large populations were never sustainable in the Upper Xingu. Read the publications of IBGE rather than the emotional bites of international organizations for the socio-geographic realities of the Brazilian interior. At least read Brazilian scholars on the Kayapo and Ge within a historical ambit:
 
Heckenberger worked with surveys and excavations together with the Kuikuro on their land. His estimations is that the settlements, and the agricultural and aquacultural structures, he found could once have harboured tens of thousands individuals. As I mentioned there is still a lot of work to be done regarding the scope of these structures and regarding the demography in the area in precolumbian times.
But it really seems that a reevaluation of earlier beliefs in these matters are on it´s way.
 
Also old accounts by earliy travelers must be complemented by solid archaeological research since those accounts often are limited and biased.
 
 
Some archaeological  research that suggests denser populations in different areas:
 
Erickson, Clark L, 2000: "An Artificial Landscape-Scale Fishery in the Bolivian Amazon" Nature. 408:190-193
 

Michael J. Heckenberger et al (2008). Pre-Columbian Urbanism, Anthropogenic Landscapes, and the Future of the Amazon. SCIENCE 29 AUGUST 2008 VOL 321 (About Xingu in Matto Grosso, Brazil)

 
A couple of popular articles that talks about the discussions about demography in precolumbian Amazonas:
 
http://www.conservationmagazine.org/articles/v8n1/virginity-lost/ - http://www.conservationmagazine.org/articles/v8n1/virginity-lost/
 
http://news.mongabay.com/2006/0514-amazon.html - http://news.mongabay.com/2006/0514-amazon.html
 
 
By the way, check out these thereads here on the forum, they also discuss this matter:
 
http://www.allempires.net/forum_posts.asp?TID=27092 - http://www.allempires.net/forum_posts.asp?TID=27092
 
http://www.allempires.net/forum_posts.asp?TID=27219 - http://www.allempires.net/forum_posts.asp?TID=27219
 
 
 
 
 
 


Posted By: drgonzaga
Date Posted: 17-May-2009 at 18:13
Well, Carcharodon, with all due respect to my esteemed  colleague at Gainesville and his penchant for jargon--"historical anthropology"Shocked--it is all about defining your terms and terminology. For goodness sakes, what does this mean!?!
 

Pre-Columbian Urbanism, Anthropogenic Landscapes, and the Future of the Amazon

Michael J. Heckenberger,1 http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/full/321/5893/1214#COR1 - * J. Christian Russell,2 Carlos Fausto,3 Joshua R. Toney,4 Morgan J. Schmidt,5 Edithe Pereira,6 Bruna Franchetto,7 Afukaka Kuikuro8

The archaeology of pre-Columbian polities in the Amazon River basin forces a reconsideration of early urbanism and long-term change in tropical forest landscapes. We describe settlement and land-use patterns of complex societies on the eve of European contact (after 1492) in the Upper Xingu region of the Brazilian Amazon. These societies were organized in articulated clusters, representing small independent polities, within a regional peer polity. These patterns constitute a "galactic" form of prehistoric urbanism, sharing features with small-scale urban polities in other areas. Understanding long-term change in coupled human-environment systems relating to these societies has implications for conservation and sustainable development, notably to control ecological degradation and maintain regional biodiversity.

Heckenberger et al.
Science 29 August 2008: 1214-1217
That abstract is a masterpiece in obfuscation abandoning traditional terms so as to transpose old understandings into novelties; novelties that permit ideological and political biases to stand as factual research within the norms of historical methodology. It is not in my scheme of things to "shoot the messenger" but one can not consider the validity of the construct without understanding the assumptions at play. The above says very little about the historical Kayapo and volumes about the political and intellectual directions of the authors. It is nothing more than an inversion of language in the service of politics. If the Tupian Amerinds of the Upper Xingu, may be considered "urbanized", why not the Huns or any other group with similar adaptive traits within particular environments?
 
As you can see from the citations you profer, the entire matter is put forward in terms of politics and not actual historical research--which is ample in terms of the Nordeste. After all, the chroniclers of the 16th century were pretty accurate about actual "urbanization" within the Amazon [enough so as to be held "incredible" by later readers]. Have you ever heard of the Yawalapiti?


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 17-May-2009 at 18:30
Originally posted by Carcharodon

... 
Still the government refuses to listen to the indigenous peoples concerning tha dam. It seems that prestige has got into the projectt and also expactations of huge profit for officials and capitalists alike.
 
 
So? Are you going to tell me there is no dams in Sweeden? Or that no people ever lost theirs lands for the construction of a new highway? Or has to be remove from theirs ancestral lands because a new infrastructure must be build?
 
Where do you live? In Congo or New Guinea? Nope. You live in Sweeden, I think you are using a double standard. You want Brazil stays where it is while you guys enjoys a high standard of living. I bet Volvo is one of those capitalists investing in Brazil
 
Originally posted by Carcharodon

... 
The dam is a state enterprise but its purpose is also to feed private inustrial enterprises with energy.
 
 
The purpose is to feed Brazil with energy.
 
 
Originally posted by Carcharodon

... 
And by tradition settlers have many times been the forerunners of colonialism.
 
 
These natives aren't uncontacted Natives. They have the evil western civilization at place right now. There is nothing that can change that. The only rational and human thing to do is to help them with medicine, schools, subsidies, lands and programs to improve theirs lives.
 
Forget it, the "jungle lifestyle" is already gone for good. Of course every effort most be done to preserve the ancient cultures and knowledge, but keeping these people in the jungle, living theirs short lives in nature, and menaced by thugs, it is not only naive but criminal.
 
 
 
 


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Posted By: Carcharodon
Date Posted: 17-May-2009 at 19:15
Originally posted by pinguin

 
So? Are you going to tell me there is no dams in Sweeden? Or that no people ever lost theirs lands for the construction of a new highway? Or has to be remove from theirs ancestral lands because a new infrastructure must be build?
 
 
Ofcourse there are dams in Sweden. Here people and government also has fought about these dams. In some case the authorities has forced the descisions to make the dams, other times local people and environmentalists have been able to stop the dams.
Espcially the Saami people have had many fights with authorities about their right to their ancestral land.
  
Originally posted by pinguin

 
The purpose is to feed Brazil with energy.
 
 
Unfortunately Brazilian authorities are in the hands of capitalist robbers, so much of the energy will go to aluminium smelting and other capitalist endevours.
 
 
Originally posted by pinguin

  
These natives aren't uncontacted Natives. They have the evil western civilization at place right now. There is nothing that can change that. The only rational and human thing to do is to help them with medicine, schools, subsidies, lands and programs to improve theirs lives.
 
 
The Saamis in Sweden (and Norway, Finland and Russia) are not uncontacted natives either, still they fight a hard struggle to keep and also regain land rights and to preserve their culture.
And it is much easier to help the indigenous peoples with medicine, schools and other things if they can keep their land.
  
Originally posted by pinguin

  
Forget it, the "jungle lifestyle" is already gone for good. Of course every effort most be done to preserve the ancient cultures and knowledge, but keeping these people in the jungle, living theirs short lives in nature, and menaced by thugs, it is not only naive but criminal.
 
Noone talks about "jungle lifestyle". It´s just a matter of those who own the land shall be able to keep it and live the lifestyle they themselves choose, not the lifestyle capitalist thugs and corrupt officials enforces upon them.
Fortunately the indigenous peoples have friends from all around the world now (many of them themselves members of indigenous peoples as Saamis, Amerindians from other places and even indigenous peoples from so far away as Indian Himalayas), friends who cannot be bought off by local capitalists and land thieves.
 
 
 


Posted By: Carcharodon
Date Posted: 17-May-2009 at 19:17
Originally posted by drgonzaga

Well, Carcharodon, with all due respect to my esteemed  colleague at Gainesville and his penchant for jargon--"historical anthropology"Shocked--it is all about defining your terms and terminology. For goodness sakes, what does this mean!?!
 
Maybe if you read the whole article things will get clearer.


Posted By: drgonzaga
Date Posted: 17-May-2009 at 20:19
Originally posted by Carcharodon

Originally posted by drgonzaga

Well, Carcharodon, with all due respect to my esteemed  colleague at Gainesville and his penchant for jargon--"historical anthropology"Shocked--it is all about defining your terms and terminology. For goodness sakes, what does this mean!?!
 
Maybe if you read the whole article things will get clearer.
 
Gee, three whole pages in Science are sufficient to revise over 50 years of research inboth history and anthropology! Amazonian settlement patterns and "economic activity"
are hardly novelties. These were documented long ago, but what is new is the "spin",
nothing else. Given your silence on the Yawapiti, it is apparent that parroting is not limited
to rain forest exploitation. Pinguin's dissection is more than adequate here as to what is
of greater concern to your own constructs. Have you ever read anything on the Tapirape
and the work of Charles Wagley? Little jargon there and far more humanistic observation
rather than political folderol.
 


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 17-May-2009 at 20:41
Originally posted by Carcharodon

... 
Ofcourse there are dams in Sweden. Here people and government also has fought about these dams. In some case the authorities has forced the descisions to make the dams, other times local people and environmentalists have been able to stop the dams.
Espcially the Saami people have had many fights with authorities about their right to their ancestral land.
  
So, pray with the example. When you guys turn down all those dams we can start to preach anti-dum morality to Brazil, China or elsewhere.
 
Originally posted by Carcharodon

... 
Unfortunately Brazilian authorities are in the hands of capitalist robbers, so much of the energy will go to aluminium smelting and other capitalist endevours.
 
Are you accusing Brazil of being a banana republic? If so, this discussion has no sense. You are just applying a biass in these matters.
 
Originally posted by Carcharodon

... 
The Saamis in Sweden (and Norway, Finland and Russia) are not uncontacted natives either, still they fight a hard struggle to keep and also regain land rights and to preserve their culture.
And it is much easier to help the indigenous peoples with medicine, schools and other things if they can keep their land.
 
Nobody says they have to give up land. They can recover lands elsewhere. That's the move natives should do.
  
Originally posted by Carcharodon

...  
Noone talks about "jungle lifestyle". It´s just a matter of those who own the land shall be able to keep it and live the lifestyle they themselves choose, not the lifestyle capitalist thugs and corrupt officials enforces upon them.
 
So, you feel free to speak on corruption on Brazil. What give you the right to patronize Brazil? Given the fact you come from a country which have huge investments in Brazil? Are your sweedish investors corrupt and thugs, too? Or that only apply to Brazilians.
 
Originally posted by Carcharodon

... 
Fortunately the indigenous peoples have friends from all around the world now (many of them themselves members of indigenous peoples as Saamis, Amerindians from other places and even indigenous peoples from so far away as Indian Himalayas), friends who cannot be bought off by local capitalists and land thieves.
 
Indigenous people have friends in Brazil, too. Among the Brazilians too. Foreigners pintamonos (translate like clows or "good-doers"), are not need for our countries to resolve internal problems.
 
I don't know when Europeans are going to stop to teach us as if our countries were inferiors.
 
I am going to promote the causes of the Sami people in Sweeden, and interfiere with the corrupt government of Sweden that prevent them to go back to the tee-pees and using raindears slades. Confused
 
 
 


-------------


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 17-May-2009 at 20:42
Originally posted by drgonzaga

...
 
Gee, three whole pages in Science are sufficient to revise over 50 years of research inboth history and anthropology! Amazonian settlement patterns and "economic activity"
are hardly novelties. These were documented long ago, but what is new is the "spin",
nothing else. Given your silence on the Yawapiti, it is apparent that parroting is not limited
to rain forest exploitation. Pinguin's dissection is more than adequate here as to what is
of greater concern to your own constructs. Have you ever read anything on the Tapirape
and the work of Charles Wagley? Little jargon there and far more humanistic observation
rather than political folderol.
 

It is pretty obvious that when a gringo writes something, then it matters. These Europeans still treat us, Latin Americans, as third world savages.



-------------


Posted By: Carcharodon
Date Posted: 17-May-2009 at 21:24

Originally posted by drgonzaga

 

Gee, three whole pages in Science are sufficient to revise over 50 years of research inboth history and anthropology! Amazonian settlement patterns and "economic activity"

are hardly novelties. These were documented long ago, but what is new is the "spin",

nothing else.

 

It´s not unusal in the world of science, especially in the world of archaeology, that new

findings revise old theories and old research. That is something one has to be used to

in modern research.



Posted By: Carcharodon
Date Posted: 17-May-2009 at 21:42
Originally posted by pinguin

  
So, pray with the example. When you guys turn down all those dams we can start to preach anti-dum morality to Brazil, China or elsewhere.
 
Actually Sweden are starting to tear down dams. There is one example not far from the place I live.
 
 
Originally posted by pinguin

  
Are you accusing Brazil of being a banana republic? If so, this discussion has no sense. You are just applying a biass in these matters.
 
Corruption is a problem in most Latin American countries. There are actually people over there who says so themselves.
 
Originally posted by pinguin

  
Nobody says they have to give up land. They can recover lands elsewhere. That's the move natives should do.
 
Noone can garantee them some land elsewhere. And elsewhere is not where they have their roots and their way of life. Picture yourself someone took away your home and then placed you on a dump somewhere, imagine how that would feel.
   
Originally posted by pinguin

  
So, you feel free to speak on corruption on Brazil. What give you the right to patronize Brazil? Given the fact you come from a country which have huge investments in Brazil? Are your sweedish investors corrupt and thugs, too? Or that only apply to Brazilians.
 
I do not defend Swedish capitalistic exploitation in other countries. We are actually many people here in Sweden protesting against that.
 
 
Originally posted by pinguin

  
Indigenous people have friends in Brazil, too. Among the Brazilians too. Foreigners pintamonos (translate like clows or "good-doers"), are not need for our countries to resolve internal problems.
 
I don't know when Europeans are going to stop to teach us as if our countries were inferiors.
 
Brazil and many other countries need some international pressure to start to respect human rights.
 
Originally posted by pinguin

  
I am going to promote the causes of the Sami people in Sweeden, and interfiere with the corrupt government of Sweden that prevent them to go back to the tee-pees and using raindears slades.  
 
You are welcome, the Saami people also need support in their struggle for land rights and preserving their culture. Actually they already work together with North American natives, with Inuits, with australian aborigines and others. They also have contacts with indigenous peoples from Latin America.
 
By the way Saamis don´t live in tee-pees, they live in houses. In old times they lived in "kåtor", some actually do that still today in the summer.
 
 


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 17-May-2009 at 22:07
Originally posted by Carcharodon

 Actually Sweden are starting to tear down dams. There is one example not far from the place I live.
 
Good for you. There is not much people in your country to have many dams either.
 
Originally posted by Carcharodon

Corruption is a problem in most Latin American countries. There are actually people over there who says so themselves.
 
So, there isn't problems of corruption in China, Japan, in the U.S., and even in your own Sweeden? Perhaps it is easier to see the defects in others. For instance, in my country we consider Sweeden a country whose main source of income is the explotation of women with the porn industry. That's not corruption, of course. I bet that industry pay taxes.
 
 
Originally posted by Carcharodon

Noone can garantee them some land elsewhere. And elsewhere is not where they have their roots and their way of life. Picture yourself someone took away your home and then placed you on a dump somewhere, imagine how that would feel.
 
Ways of life, again. Why don't you keep your romanticism for Europe? I wonder how Brazil allows so many foreigners to make trouble in the jungles.
   
 
Originally posted by Carcharodon

I do not defend Swedish capitalistic exploitation in other countries. We are actually many people here in Sweden protesting against that.
 
I bet you guys are very bored down there, with a lot of time to waste.
If you do, you better stop Japanese, and Finns from killing whales, which is something a lot more urgent than abstract protests. Yes, so much theorical ecology in scandinavia, and you guys still hunt whales!!!
 
 
Originally posted by pinguin

  
Brazil and many other countries need some international pressure to start to respect human rights.
 
Yes. There are countries that need a lesson. For instance, the pro-abortion countries of northern Europe that kill millions of unborn babies every single year should have a reflection on what they are doing.
 
 
Originally posted by pinguin

  
You are welcome, the Saami people also need support in their struggle for land rights and preserving their culture. Actually they already work together with North American natives, with Inuits, with australian aborigines and others. They also have contacts with indigenous peoples from Latin America.
 
By the way Saamis don´t live in tee-pees, they live in houses. In old times they lived in "kåtor", some actually do that still today in the summer.
 
Most natives these days live in houses. Or do you think Mapuches in my country live in rucas? Actually, what natives need the most is to get the advantages of modern culture, and in that way they would be able to deffend themselves a lot better.
 
 
 


-------------


Posted By: Carcharodon
Date Posted: 17-May-2009 at 22:27
Originally posted by pinguin

 
Good for you. There is not much people in your country to have many dams either.
 
There are to many dams here in Sweden, we just have to tear down many of them.
 
Originally posted by pinguin

 
So, there isn't problems of corruption in China, Japan, in the U.S., and even in your own Sweeden? Perhaps it is easier to see the defects in others. For instance, in my country we consider Sweeden a country whose main source of income is the explotation of women with the porn industry. That's not corruption, of course. I bet that industry pay taxes.
 
The Swedish porn industry is vanishing. Most young people today actually want to ban porn totally. Also Sweden have strong laws against prostitution.
And our main sources of income is industrial products, electronics and ofcourse natural products like iron and wood.
 
USA is today the country that produces most porn. Also a country like Brazil are producing much more porn than Sweden.
 
 
Originally posted by pinguin

Ways of life, again. Why don't you keep your romanticism for Europe? I wonder how Brazil allows so many foreigners to make trouble in the jungles.
 
So you shall determine if the indigenous peoples shall have the right to live according their own culture or not? Only the indigenous peoples themselves can determine such a thing.
 
Just listen one more time to what Pierlangela Nascimento da Cunha says:
 
http://www.survival-international.org/tribes/raposa - http://www.survival-international.org/tribes/raposa
 
But maybe you know better than her how she and her people shall live their lives?
   
 
Originally posted by pinguin

 
I bet you guys are very bored down there, with a lot of time to waste.
If you do, you better stop Japanese, and Finns from killing whales, which is something a lot more urgent than abstract protests. Yes, so much theorical ecology in scandinavia, and you guys still hunt whales!!!
 
Finns don´t kill wales but unfortunately Norwegians and Icelanders do so. But there are many people here who really fight to stop that.
 
 
Originally posted by pinguin

  
Yes. There are countries that need a lesson. For instance, the pro-abortion countries of northern Europe that kill millions of unborn babies every single year should have a reflection on what they are doing.
 
Yes I can understand that you think so being slave under old medieval values stemming from woman hating monks and priests.
 
 
Originally posted by pinguin

  
Most natives these days live in houses. Or do you think Mapuches in my country live in rucas? Actually, what natives need the most is to get the advantages of modern culture, and in that way they would be able to deffend themselves a lot better.
 
Yes they maybe need the advantages of modern culture but not disadvantages as slum, criminality, alcohol, prostitution and other problems that are to common in "modern" Brazil and other latin American countries.
 


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 18-May-2009 at 01:57
Originally posted by Carcharodon

... 
There are to many dams here in Sweden, we just have to tear down many of them.
 
Yes, but you needed them once to develop your country.
 
Originally posted by Carcharodon

... 
The Swedish porn industry is vanishing. Most young people today actually want to ban porn totally. Also Sweden have strong laws against prostitution.
And our main sources of income is industrial products, electronics and ofcourse natural products like iron and wood.
USA is today the country that produces most porn. Also a country like Brazil are producing much more porn than Sweden.
 
 
I just mentioned that because you talked about corruption. It is easy to patronize other countries and forget the miseries on our own.
  
Originally posted by Carcharodon

... 
 
So you shall determine if the indigenous peoples shall have the right to live according their own culture or not? Only the indigenous peoples themselves can determine such a thing.
 
Just listen one more time to what Pierlangela Nascimento da Cunha says:
 
http://www.survival-international.org/tribes/raposa - http://www.survival-international.org/tribes/raposa
 
But maybe you know better than her how she and her people shall live their lives?
 
What I know about Indian issues is that most are solved with education and resources given directly to the people. For instance, casinos in the U.S. are a lot more practical solution that preserving people in the stone age. Well managed, a case as a damn can be a source of income for the natives. The dam won't be stopped, so the best to do is manage to get advantages from the circumstances.
 
 
Originally posted by Carcharodon

... 
Finns don´t kill wales but unfortunately Norwegians and Icelanders do so. But there are many people here who really fight to stop that.
 
 
Yeap. Norwegians. They should stop it right now. We want our wales alive. Otherwise, they will force us to act, and they will end up with a torpedo at theirs norwegian backs.
 
Originally posted by Carcharodon

... 
Yes I can understand that you think so being slave under old medieval values stemming from woman hating monks and priests.
 
 
Nope, I wasn't thinking in middle ages christianity, but in pagan times. I was thinking in the pleasure of killing babies in human sacrifices, in the name of the goddess of women's freedom and progressism.
 
Originally posted by Carcharodon

... 
Yes they maybe need the advantages of modern culture but not disadvantages as slum, criminality, alcohol, prostitution and other problems that are to common in "modern" Brazil and other latin American countries. 
 
Brazil is a poor country in income per capita. Without investments in infrastructe and energy you will condemn it to be poor forever.
 


-------------


Posted By: Carcharodon
Date Posted: 18-May-2009 at 08:39
Originally posted by pinguin

 
Yes, but you needed them once to develop your country.
 
Because in those days there were no good alternatives. many dams in Sweden was built one hundred years ago. Today more and more alternative energy sourses appear.
 
 
Originally posted by pinguin

 
What I know about Indian issues is that most are solved with education and resources given directly to the people. For instance, casinos in the U.S. are a lot more practical solution that preserving people in the stone age. Well managed, a case as a damn can be a source of income for the natives. The dam won't be stopped, so the best to do is manage to get advantages from the circumstances.
 
What you know about indian issues are not so much as the indans themselves know.
 
Dams have been stopped before. Even in the same region the indigenous peoples and other succeded to stop a dam. And they seem rather determined to stop this dam too.
 
Noone talks about letting anyone live in the stone age. It´s just a matter of letting people live as they themselves wish on their own land. To not let them do so is colonialism.
 
 
 
Originally posted by pinguin

 
Yeap. Norwegians. They should stop it right now. We want our wales alive. Otherwise, they will force us to act, and they will end up with a torpedo at theirs norwegian backs.
 
Actually the whaling fleet of Iceland was one time sunk by the Sea Shephard, an environmental organisation.
 
Originally posted by pinguin

 
Nope, I wasn't thinking in middle ages christianity, but in pagan times. I was thinking in the pleasure of killing babies in human sacrifices, in the name of the goddess of women's freedom and progressism.
 
According to monks and celibacy priests it is better to let raped women have babies. It´s better that families throw their children out on the streets than limit the ammount of babies that are born.
 
 
Originally posted by pinguin

 
Brazil is a poor country in income per capita. Without investments in infrastructe and energy you will condemn it to be poor forever.  
 
There are other alternatives, and even if poor that doesn´t give them the right to invade other peoples land. Brazil ought to be able to solve it´s economic problems without colonial incursions on others land.
 


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 18-May-2009 at 15:46
Problem one: Brazil is not a colony anymore. Outsiders shouldn't intervine in its internat affairs.
Problem two: your missed my point on the killing of unborn babies, that point backwards to pagan human sacrifices, rather that to progressism.
Problem three: Foreigners should not dictate what alternatives poor countries should choose. Common, we aren't in the times of the British Empire anymore!


-------------


Posted By: Styrbiorn
Date Posted: 18-May-2009 at 16:55
Originally posted by pinguin


For instance, in my country we consider Sweeden a country whose main source of income is the explotation of women with the porn industry.
 

So maybe you should address your own ridiculous prejudice before spitting on those of others? Especially in this case; Latin America is quite corrupt. And so is many European states, eg Italy, most of the Balkan, and especially the prime example, Russia. I don't take a position in this case, but you are constantly attacking people's origin instead of their arguments. If a European says something slightly negative about anything Latin American, he is automatically a prejudiced racist scumbag no matter whether he is right or wrong.


Posted By: Carcharodon
Date Posted: 18-May-2009 at 17:57
Originally posted by pinguin

Problem one: Brazil is not a colony anymore. Outsiders shouldn't intervine in its internat affairs.
 
We live in a global world. Everyone who commit crimes against human rights has to accept criticism from other countries.
 
And in the case of Xingu river, and also in the case of the indigenous in Raposa Serra del Sol, the indigenous peoples themselves have asked for help from outside. In the latter case representants have travelled to many European countries and even visited the Pope in Rome to try to get help in their fight for their own land and for the right to live in the way they choose.
 
Originally posted by pinguin


Problem two: your missed my point on the killing of unborn babies, that point backwards to pagan human sacrifices, rather that to progressism.
 
To let woman choose what to do with their own bodies is more progressive than forcing them to have a lot of unwanted babies that noone takes care of.
 
Originally posted by pinguin


Problem three: Foreigners should not dictate what alternatives poor countries should choose. Common, we aren't in the times of the British Empire anymore!
 
As I said, we live in a global world, everyone has to accept criticism if they treat people in a bad way.
 


Posted By: drgonzaga
Date Posted: 18-May-2009 at 18:02
Originally posted by Carcharodon

Originally posted by drgonzaga

 

Gee, three whole pages in Science are sufficient to revise over 50 years of research inboth history and anthropology! Amazonian settlement patterns and "economic activity"

are hardly novelties. These were documented long ago, but what is new is the "spin",

nothing else.

 

It´s not unusal in the world of science, especially in the world of archaeology, that new

findings revise old theories and old research. That is something one has to be used to

in modern research.

 

The problem with Heckenberg et al has nothing to do with "new findings" at all just new jargon.

His belated declarations on "fishing" practices as well as village patterns required no archaological

novelty since they were amply noted in the Jesuit letters of the 16th century! What his work did

was to simply validate the substance of many of the early narratives within the historical

record. The travesty comes in the adaptation of original premises to the political jargon of

the current day. Hence, "sustainable exploitation" becomes an ecological argument for the

maintaining of economic marginalization. If you do not understand what that means, it simply

stands for a rationalization envisioning the maintenace of "reservations" as ydillic edens 

[economic stasis] under the guise of ecological harmony suitable for the preservation of

European life-styles at the expense of Amerind development (e.g. let's keep our carbon imprint

and life-style by limiting the "other"). Face it, Char, the globalists are the new imperialists engaged

in a bitter intervention onto the socio-political affairs of the Americas. I wonder if you would have

supported the old South African rationalizations for the Bantustans? After all, they were developed

so as to preserve the "identity" of the hapless Blacks!

 

With respect to the Amerinds, Brazilian law and efforts at assistance have a far longer history

and go back more than half a century. Perhaps you should familiarize yourself with FUNAI

after all the "activism" displayed by the Amerinds is not a product of European do-gooders, who now

wish to hog the stage.



Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 18-May-2009 at 18:23
Jesus!
So Heckenberg is just another gringo patenting ideas of locals in his name!
This has going on before for too long.

With respect to gringo idealists, why don't they fix Europe first.

Stop killing our wales (Norway)
Stop sending us ships loaded with radioactive material (France)
Stop demanding drugs that create so many problems here!





-------------


Posted By: Carcharodon
Date Posted: 18-May-2009 at 19:00
Originally posted by drgonzaga

 

The problem with Heckenberg et al has nothing to do with "new findings" at all just new jargon.

His belated declarations on "fishing" practices as well as village patterns required no archaological

novelty since they were amply noted in the Jesuit letters of the 16th century! What his work did

was to simply validate the substance of many of the early narratives within the historical

record.

 

The new research give a lot of new, more substantial information then the old chronicles can do. Now it

will be more easy to quantify things like areable land and size of settlements. It will be possible to

in detail look at agrocultural and aquacultural methods and other forms of resource management.

Such studies will also make it more easy to calculate density of population. These studies

not just adds complimentary information to the written records, they give a lot of

information by themselves that no old chronicles can give.

 

Originally posted by drgonzaga

 

 The travesty comes in the adaptation of original premises to the political jargon of

the current day. Hence, "sustainable exploitation" becomes an ecological argument for the

maintaining of economic marginalization. If you do not understand what that means, it simply

stands for a rationalization envisioning the maintenace of "reservations" as ydillic edens 

[economic stasis] under the guise of ecological harmony suitable for the preservation of

European life-styles at the expense of Amerind development (e.g. let's keep our carbon imprint

and life-style by limiting the "other"). Face it, Char, the globalists are the new imperialists engaged

in a bitter intervention onto the socio-political affairs of the Americas. I wonder if you would have

supported the old South African rationalizations for the Bantustans? After all, they were developed

so as to preserve the "identity" of the hapless Blacks!

 

Now it happens to be so that the indigenous peoples both in  the Xingu valley and other places

like the Raposa Serra del Sol has asked the international opinion to help them in their fight for their

 own land and their right to live in the way they themselves choose. In the latter case some of them have

even traveled to several countries in Europe for support in their case. They even visited the Pope

in Rome.

 

 

Originally posted by drgonzaga

 With respect to the Amerinds, Brazilian law and efforts at assistance have a far longer history

and go back more than half a century. Perhaps you should familiarize yourself with FUNAI

after all the "activism" displayed by the Amerinds is not a product of European do-gooders, who now

wish to hog the stage.

 

Since the Amerind are seeking support abroad, FUNAI obviously doesn´t do enough for

them.

 



Posted By: Carcharodon
Date Posted: 18-May-2009 at 19:02
Originally posted by pinguin

Jesus!
So Heckenberg is just another gringo patenting ideas of locals in his name!
This has going on before for too long.
With respect to gringo idealists, why don't they fix Europe first.
Stop killing our wales (Norway)
Stop sending us ships loaded with radioactive material (France)
Stop demanding drugs that create so many problems here!
 
It seems that you are out of substantial arguments. Instead you are using simple political rethorics.


Posted By: Carcharodon
Date Posted: 18-May-2009 at 19:04
Originally posted by Styrbiorn

Originally posted by pinguin


For instance, in my country we consider Sweeden a country whose main source of income is the explotation of women with the porn industry.
 

So maybe you should address your own ridiculous prejudice before spitting on those of others? Especially in this case; Latin America is quite corrupt. And so is many European states, eg Italy, most of the Balkan, and especially the prime example, Russia. I don't take a position in this case, but you are constantly attacking people's origin instead of their arguments. If a European says something slightly negative about anything Latin American, he is automatically a prejudiced racist scumbag no matter whether he is right or wrong.
 
Well said Styrbjörn.
 
Tack för de orden.
 


Posted By: Carcharodon
Date Posted: 18-May-2009 at 22:57
Some information about the situation of indigenous peoples:
 

Indigenous Genocide in the Amazon Region

(Acknowlegements to http://www.survival-international.org/ - Survival International )

Brazil
http://www.survival-international.org/news/3389 - Dramatic Video Shows Attack on Indian Village (June 2008)

" http://www.survival-international.org/news.php?id=1783 - Bishop warns of genocide of uncontacted Indians "

http://www.survival-international.org/sights.php?gallery_id=355 - Survival International on the threats facing the uncontacted Indians of Rio Pardo, Mato Grosso State, Brazil:

http://www.survival-international.org/news.php?id=1258 - Rio Pardo : "Top officials accused of genocide of Indians"

http://www.yale.edu/gsp/amazon/brazil_fears.html - The Tupi-kawahyb people :
" http://www.brazzilmag.com/content/view/4653/ - Brazil Fears an Isolated Indian Tribe Has Been Victim of Genocide ," by V.A., Brazzil Mag, 1 December 2005

Piripkura people of Colniza district, Mato Grosso:
" http://www.survival-international.org/news/3944 - Real Risk of Genocide for Uncontacted Tribe " (Nov. 20, 2008)

http://www.yale.edu/gsp/amazon/massive_invasion.html - Rondônia : The Uru Eu Wau Wau people
" http://www.survival-international.org/news.php?id=2156 - Massive Invasion of Isolated Indians' Land "

Akuntsu people:
" http://www.survival-international.org/tribes/akuntsu/genocide - Tribe's Last Six Survivors Speak of Genocide "

" http://www.tribalchannel.tv/player/program/3 - The Akuntsu's Last Dance " (narrated by Julie Christie)

Tanaru Indigenous Territory:
" http://www.survival-international.org/news.php?id=2040 - Land for Last Survivor of Unknown Amazon Tribe "

Ukarangma people:
" http://www.survival-international.org/news.php?id=1820 - Arara Indians under 'threat of extinction '"

" http://www.yale.edu/gsp/amazon/arara_indians.html - Arara Indians Fight Bullets and Bulldozers "

" http://www.survival-international.org/related_material.php?id=22 - Our land is now an island and we are surrounded "

Colombia
" http://www.survival-international.org/news.php?id=1610 - Nukak Tribe: 'We are being wiped out '"

Peru
http://www.survival-international.org/tribes/isolatedperu - 15 isolated or uncontacted tribes  
http://www.survival-international.org/news/tribes/isolatedperu - News stories

Ecuador
Waorani people:

" http://www.survival-international.org/news/3972 - Indigenous leaders recalls 'terrible consequences' of first contact " (Nov. 28, 2008)
 


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 19-May-2009 at 04:31
Originally posted by Carcharodon

Originally posted by Styrbiorn

Originally posted by pinguin


For instance, in my country we consider Sweeden a country whose main source of income is the explotation of women with the porn industry.
 

So maybe you should address your own ridiculous prejudice before spitting on those of others? Especially in this case; Latin America is quite corrupt. And so is many European states, eg Italy, most of the Balkan, and especially the prime example, Russia. I don't take a position in this case, but you are constantly attacking people's origin instead of their arguments. If a European says something slightly negative about anything Latin American, he is automatically a prejudiced racist scumbag no matter whether he is right or wrong.
 
Well said Styrbjörn.
 
Tack för de orden.
 
 
So, you are trying to say your country isn't?
 
What I don't like is Europeans put theirs noses in the internal affairs of our countries. During five centuries we have suffered first the invasion of European states, and then attacks of pirates and adventurers. Even in the middle of the 19th century European countries bombarded our ports, tried to pick Mexico under its control, and tried to made independent countries in native territories!
 
Whitout the Monroe doctrine, your countries would still fooling around here. In fact, we still have problems with Norwegian whale hunters, with British claiming the Antartida from Falklands, and with the French transporting nuclear waste in large ships!
 
 It is time Europe worries abouts its internal affairs and we worry about ours. Either corrupt or not, we don't need Europe to solve our problems.
 
And If you guys want to fool around with countries, go to Asia or Africa, to those countries were Europeans can intervine without anyone to stop them.
 
 
 
 
 


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Posted By: Styrbiorn
Date Posted: 19-May-2009 at 08:23
Originally posted by pinguin

So, you are trying to say your country isn't?

Corruption exists everywhere, but Sweden is quite free from it nowadays. We have our problems, but corruption isn't one of them. This is a fact, but it isn't related to the topic very much.
 
What I don't like is Europeans put theirs noses in the internal affairs of our countries. During five centuries we have suffered first the invasion of European states, and then attacks of pirates and adventurers. Even in the middle of the 19th century European countries bombarded our ports, tried to pick Mexico under its control, and tried to made independent countries in native territories!
This is an internet fora. Where people discuss. Stop putting your nose in Brazil's business! Wink

Whitout the Monroe doctrine, your countries would still fooling around here. In fact, we still have problems with Norwegian whale hunters, with British claiming the Antartida from Falklands, and with the French transporting nuclear waste in large ships!
 

Sweden didn't fool around in SA as far as I know. Norwegian whale hunters hunt on international waters. The whales doesn't belong to you. Antarctica doesn't belong to you anymore than it belongs to the British. The French, or any other nuclear transports, has permission of the respective governments whose territorial waters they enter.


Edit: Just for the record, I'm more on your side than on Cacharodon's on this issue. You just trigger me every time you bring up the historical "bad Europeans" card.




Posted By: Carcharodon
Date Posted: 19-May-2009 at 11:29
Originally posted by pinguin

What I don't like is Europeans put theirs noses in the internal affairs of our countries. During five centuries we have suffered first the invasion of European states, and then attacks of pirates and adventurers. Even in the middle of the 19th century European countries bombarded our ports, tried to pick Mexico under its control, and tried to made independent countries in native territories!
 
Actually most of the Latino states are the results of European invasions of native peoples countries. Unfortunately many traits of European middle ages thinking has survived in Latin America which for example influences their treatment of their indigenous peoples.
 
 
Originally posted by pinguin

 It is time Europe worries abouts its internal affairs and we worry about ours. Either corrupt or not, we don't need Europe to solve our problems. 
 
We live in a global world where international solidarity exists. Those countries that commits crimes against human rights must accept to be criticized. 
 
And as I said a couple of times already, it is actually the indigenous peoples themselves who asked the international community (not only Europe) for support in their fight for their right to their own land and the right to live as they themselves choose. 
 
 


Posted By: drgonzaga
Date Posted: 19-May-2009 at 13:37
Originally posted by Carcharodon

Originally posted by pinguin

What I don't like is Europeans put theirs noses in the internal affairs of our countries. During five centuries we have suffered first the invasion of European states, and then attacks of pirates and adventurers. Even in the middle of the 19th century European countries bombarded our ports, tried to pick Mexico under its control, and tried to made independent countries in native territories!
 
Actually most of the Latino states are the results of European invasions of native peoples countries. Unfortunately many traits of European middle ages thinking has survived in Latin America which for example influences their treatment of their indigenous peoples.
  
Originally posted by pinguin

 It is time Europe worries abouts its internal affairs and we worry about ours. Either corrupt or not, we don't need Europe to solve our problems. 
 
We live in a global world where international solidarity exists. Those countries that commits crimes against human rights must accept to be criticized. 
 
And as I said a couple of times already, it is actually the indigenous peoples themselves who asked the international community (not only Europe) for support in their fight for their right to their own land and the right to live as they themselves choose. 
 
Ignorance is bliss, Carcharodon, but blaming the Middle Ages is sheer folderol! During the colonial period, the Amerindian populations had "protected" status and the Archivo General de Indias in Sevilla has reems of manuscript folios defending the political autonomy of the Amerind cabildos. I guess Evo Morales of Bolivia must be called a Medievalist as he seeks to restore the judicial authority of community elders on the Altiplano. To be blunt, the loss of autonomy and the raping of Amerind lands was a phenomenon of the 19th century under the influence of European liberalism! If you are not familiar with the actual history, admit to such, but please do not elaborate fictions illustrating your short-sightedness so as to justify some rather outlandish claims. Did you know that under the Leyes de las Indias, Europeans were forbidden residence in Amerind pueblos? Or that current political boundaries in the Americas reflect the boundaries of the old colonial judiciary, the Audiencias. A very strong argument can be made that the destruction of Amerind autonomy and land ownership in the Americas is the direct result of Europanized politicians reflecting the prejudices of 19th century Liberalism. For example, in Mexico the disapperance of Amerind pueblos and village lands marched hand-in-hand with the Constitution of 1857 and the advent of Mexican Positivism!
 
In effect, you are simply repeating the usual bullshit propagated by the ahistorical. After all, the major decimator of Amerind populations after European contact was disease. This pandemic was ameliorated during the course of the late 16th century and reversed by the middle of the 17th, when Amerind numbers in the colonial population began to increase [colonial bureaucrats were under royal orders to conduct censuses and descriptive narratives, after all]. Think what you might, the Catholic Church within Spanish America did its utmost to preserve Amerind autonomy against rapacious peninsulares and criollos. It is only in tandem with the disestablishment of the Church during the course of the 19th and early 20th century that Amerind lands and political divisions disappear from the body polity of the Americas.
 
Now, within a contemporary context, the situation is not as simplistic as you would have it. Stasis and regression does play a part and your supposed Amerindian "leadership" is just as interested in maintaining their own authority as any greedy capitalist nationalist. The thrust for education under the impetus of FUNAI does represent a challenge to the traditionalists and their own version of paternalism. They certainly do not want to give up their "leisure" time to work the fields, after all that's woman's work! So, in a sense, your concern is more advocacy of Medieval thought than that of any contemporary politician in the Americas.


Posted By: drgonzaga
Date Posted: 19-May-2009 at 13:50

Carch wrote: Since the Amerind are seeking support abroad, FUNAI obviously doesn´t do enough for

them.

 

Don't you read in detail the links you yourself post?

 

"FUNAI, the government’s Indian affairs department, will increase the size of the Tanaru Indigenous Territory where he lives,

after discovering he has made small gardens and hunting camps outside the area legally set aside to protect him. This move

will help ensure that 'the man in the hole' will remain isolated, as is his clear wish, and is in line with FUNAI’s policy of not

making contact with uncontacted Indians unless their lives are under threat."

 

  http://www.survival-international.org/news.php?id=2040 - Land for Last Survivor of Unknown Amazon Tribe

 

 



Posted By: Carcharodon
Date Posted: 19-May-2009 at 13:57
Originally posted by drgonzaga

In effect, you are simply repeating the usual bullshit propagated by the ahistorical. After all, the major decimator of Amerind populations after European contact was disease. This pandemic was ameliorated during the course of the late 16th century and reversed by the middle of the 17th, when Amerind numbers in the colonial population began to increase [colonial bureaucrats were under royal orders to conduct censuses and descriptive narratives, after all]. Think what you might, the Catholic Church within Spanish America did its utmost to preserve Amerind autonomy against rapacious peninsulares and criollos. It is only in tandem with the disestablishment of the Church during the course of the 19th and early 20th century that Amerind lands and political divisions disappear from the body polity of the Americas. 
 
 
Unfortunately those who really try to defend the indigenous people are a minority in many Latin American. To many people have strong prejudice against them and just think they are a hindrance for development.
And many times the church and it´s missionaires had as it´s only goal to christianize the natives before they became extinct or to assimilate them and extinguish their culture.
And disese, land robbery, war and enslavement where all factors that contributed to the extermination of many indigenous peoples.
 
Originally posted by drgonzaga

  Stasis and regression does play a part and your supposed Amerindian "leadership" is just as interested in maintaining their own authority as any greedy capitalist nationalist. The thrust for education under the impetus of FUNAI does represent a challenge to the traditionalists and their own version of paternalism. They certainly do not want to give up their "leisure" time to work the fields, after all that's woman's work! So, in a sense, your concern is more advocacy of Medieval thought than that of any contemporary politician in the Americas.
 
It seems that you show the same prejudice against the indigenous peoples that are usual in Latin America. Some of the leaders and spokespersons of indigenous peoples are actually themselves women who defend their people against greedy capitalists and landrobbers. One of these women leaders can be seen here:
 
http://www.survival-international.org/tribes/raposa - http://www.survival-international.org/tribes/raposa
 
http://video.filestube.com/video,ac754dcb5d6f6b0f03e9.html - http://video.filestube.com/video,ac754dcb5d6f6b0f03e9.html
 


Posted By: Carcharodon
Date Posted: 19-May-2009 at 14:07
Originally posted by drgonzaga

"FUNAI, the government’s Indian affairs department, will increase the size of the Tanaru Indigenous Territory where he lives,

after discovering he has made small gardens and hunting camps outside the area legally set aside to protect him. This move

will help ensure that 'the man in the hole' will remain isolated, as is his clear wish, and is in line with FUNAI’s policy of not

making contact with uncontacted Indians unless their lives are under threat."

 

Many times FUNAI and other authorities in Brazil act first after international pressure

and opinion.

And still they don´t do enough in all cases since indigenous peolples still have to go on seeking

international support, as in the case of the Xingu river dam.



Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 19-May-2009 at 14:16
Originally posted by drgonzaga

Carch wrote: Since the Amerind are seeking support abroad, FUNAI obviously doesn´t do enough for

them.

 

Don't you read in detail the links you yourself post?

 

"FUNAI, the government’s Indian affairs department, will increase the size of the Tanaru Indigenous Territory where he lives,

after discovering he has made small gardens and hunting camps outside the area legally set aside to protect him. This move

will help ensure that 'the man in the hole' will remain isolated, as is his clear wish, and is in line with FUNAI’s policy of not

making contact with uncontacted Indians unless their lives are under threat."

 

  http://www.survival-international.org/news.php?id=2040 - Land for Last Survivor of Unknown Amazon Tribe

 

 

I have notice it. It seems this guy simply ignores your posts.

You know, it is the idea that Brazil is a wild land without a country. They forget these events happens in Brazilian territories and also forget that Brazilians are working on it already.

 

 



-------------


Posted By: Carcharodon
Date Posted: 19-May-2009 at 14:32

Originally posted by pinguin

 You know, it is the idea that Brazil is a wild land without a country.

They forget these events happens in Brazilian territories and also forget that Brazilians

are working on it already. 

Maybe they are working on it but still they need som input and encouragement from

international opinion.



Posted By: drgonzaga
Date Posted: 19-May-2009 at 14:44
Carch wrote: Many times FUNAI and other authorities in Brazil act first after international pressure

and opinion.And still they don´t do enough in all cases since indigenous peolples still have to go on seeking

international support, as in the case of the Xingu river dam.

 

Familiarize yourself with the works of the Villas Boas brothers in the early 20th century and the actual history of

FUNAI before making such unsubstantiated statements. Long before any European ever gave thought to the

Amazonian Amerind and the pressures of modernization, Brazilian protective legislation was "on the books

so to speak.

 

Or perhaps you are interested in protecting infanticide as a cultural right among the "indigenous peoples"?

http://vozpelavida-midia.blogspot.com/ - http://vozpelavida-midia.blogspot.com/

 

Ecology polemicists are "using" the Amerind for their own debates, an abuse no less egregious than any you

yourself impose onto the past of the Americas. In a way, you seek to perpetuate the myth of "helpless

aborigines" and contradict this very valid statement by Professor Hahner on Brazil:

 

Today we have not just histories of Indians, but Indian histories, as some Indian groups

have gradually overcome their longstanding marginalization from Portuguese literacy.

Certainly the supposition that modern indigenous South Americans embody archetypes

of changeless culture--an idea still found in popular and semi-scholarly literature--should

no longer be accepted. Brazil's indigenes cannot be considered people outside of time,

or people without history.



Posted By: Carcharodon
Date Posted: 19-May-2009 at 15:00
Originally posted by drgonzaga

Familiarize yourself with the works of the Villas Boas brothers in the early 20th century and the actual history of

FUNAI before making such unsubstantiated statements. Long before any European ever gave thought to the

Amazonian Amerind and the pressures of modernization, Brazilian protective legislation was "on the books

so to speak.

 

Unfortunately not all Brasilians follow in the footsteps of the Villas Boas Brothers. Thats why the Indigenous peoples

need support from the international community.

Originally posted by drgonzaga

Or perhaps you are interested in protecting infanticide as a cultural right among the "indigenous peoples"?

http://vozpelavida-midia.blogspot.com/ - http://vozpelavida-midia.blogspot.com/  

 

Noone defends infanticide. It´s a typical argument defending exploitation of the indigenous peoples by

refering to such things.

Originally posted by drgonzaga

 

Today we have not just histories of Indians, but Indian histories, as some Indian groups

have gradually overcome their longstanding marginalization from Portuguese literacy.

Certainly the supposition that modern indigenous South Americans embody archetypes

of changeless culture--an idea still found in popular and semi-scholarly literature--should

no longer be accepted. Brazil's indigenes cannot be considered people outside of time,

or people without history.

 

Yes literacy is becoming more common in indigenous peoples, that is why they can make their voices heard

and reach out for international support. The exploitation and land robbery cannot be kept a

secret anymore.

 



Posted By: Carcharodon
Date Posted: 19-May-2009 at 15:08
Many times the talk of "assimilating" indigenous peoles is just a smoke screen in order to rob them of their land and send them away to some slum somewhere.
 
Maybe this is the things that the indigenous peoples are supposed to be assimilated to:


Posted By: drgonzaga
Date Posted: 19-May-2009 at 15:50
Spare us the rhetorical subterfuge, Carcharodon. It was the Brazilian government itself that established the community land titles for the Amazonian Amerinds and there is quite a difference between integration and your "assimilation". Brazilian realities are much more complex than you would have it, and the agenda of the internationalists you so espouse are premised not only on their own financial interests but squarely also on a chauvinism that denies the complexity. Brazil is not deep space and "non-intervention is the prime directive for a science fiction fantasy! The provision of health care, education, and yes, the eradication of traditional practices inimical to the principles of human rights is one of the charges held dear by FUNAI. Have you ever heard of Napoleon Chagnon and his socio-biological constructs premised upon the Yanomamo? In a sense you are displaying his hubris and perpetuating the creation of wild preserves where time stands still and "primitivism" is a laboratory for anthropological fancies.


Posted By: Carcharodon
Date Posted: 19-May-2009 at 16:55
Originally posted by drgonzaga

Spare us the rhetorical subterfuge, Carcharodon. It was the Brazilian government itself that established the community land titles for the Amazonian Amerinds and there is quite a difference between integration and your "assimilation". Brazilian realities are much more complex than you would have it, and the agenda of the internationalists you so espouse are premised not only on their own financial interests but squarely also on a chauvinism that denies the complexity.
 
The problem is that Brazils authorities have difficulties stemming the interests of capitalist exploiters and greedy landrobbers. On top of that there are deeply rooted problems with corruption inside those authorities themselves.
International attention are many times a good way of creating the incentive for improvements.
 
 
Originally posted by drgonzaga

Brazil is not deep space and "non-intervention is the prime directive for a science fiction fantasy! The provision of health care, education, and yes, the eradication of traditional practices inimical to the principles of human rights is one of the charges held dear by FUNAI. Have you ever heard of Napoleon Chagnon and his socio-biological constructs premised upon the Yanomamo? In a sense you are displaying his hubris and perpetuating the creation of wild preserves where time stands still and "primitivism" is a laboratory for anthropological fancies.
 
FUNAIs intention is good but they have to fight against a lot of prejudice and greed in Brazil, so a bit of international support is always needed. If everything was 100% than the indigenous communities wouldn´t have to ask for international support.
 
Noone says that the indigenous peoples shall not have education or health care. Read for examples the writings of Pierlângela Nascimento da Cunha, representant of the Wapichana  people, and also representative of Organizzazione dei Professori indigeni di Roraima, who strongly stresses the importance of education among her people and other Indigenous groups.
 
And today not many anthropologists support the ideas or actions of Chagnon. Especially not after the publishing of Patrick Tierney's book "Darkness in El Dorado".


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 19-May-2009 at 16:59
Originally posted by Carcharodon

Noone defends infanticide. It´s a typical argument defending exploitation of the indigenous peoples by

refering to such things.

.

 

LOL... you guys are famous for promote abortion. What's the difference with infanticide?

 

Originally posted by Carcharodon

Yes literacy is becoming more common in indigenous peoples, that is why they can make their voices heard

and reach out for international support. The exploitation and land robbery cannot be kept a

secret anymore.

 

Land robbery has never been a secret. Exist since the first European arrived to the Americas.

In fact, the name "robber" is commonly used for outsiders by both Sioux, and Mapuches.

Now, with such pedigree of robbing how come you suggest we should accept European interference?

 



-------------


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 19-May-2009 at 17:07
Originally posted by Carcharodon

Many times the talk of "assimilating" indigenous peoles is just a smoke screen in order to rob them of their land and send them away to some slum somewhere.
 
Maybe this is the things that the indigenous peoples are supposed to be assimilated to:
 
Your anti-Brazilian biass is amazing.
 
Do you really believe you know it better because you are European? God!

 



-------------


Posted By: Carcharodon
Date Posted: 19-May-2009 at 17:15
Originally posted by pinguin

 

LOL... you guys are famous for promote abortion. What's the difference with infanticide?

 

If you don´t understand the difference between a child and an embryo than it maybe

hard to explain to you.

 

Originally posted by pinguin

  

Land robbery has never been a secret. Exist since the first European arrived to the Americas.

In fact, the name "robber" is commonly used for outsiders by both Sioux, and Mapuches.

Now, with such pedigree of robbing how come you suggest we should accept European interference.

 

Once upon the time the Latin Americans declared themselves independant of Europe.

Still their land robbery against the indigenous

peoples continued and have over time even increased. The international solidarity organisations

doesn´t participate in any land robbery. Instead they are asked by the indigenous peoples 

for help to fight land robbery and other forms of exploitation.

 



Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 19-May-2009 at 20:59
Originally posted by Carcharodon

[ 

If you don´t understand the difference between a child and an embryo than it maybe

hard to explain to you.

 

No. I don't understand the difference: they are both human beings.

 

Originally posted by pinguin

  Once upon the time the Latin Americans declared themselves independant of Europe.

Still their land robbery against the indigenous

peoples continued and have over time even increased. The international solidarity organisations

doesn´t participate in any land robbery. Instead they are asked by the indigenous peoples 

for help to fight land robbery and other forms of exploitation.

 

 

I wonder why Brazil is so patient with these clowns, and doesn't deport more "go-dooers". If you guy try it in my country, you'll be kicked off.

 



-------------


Posted By: Carcharodon
Date Posted: 20-May-2009 at 05:44
Originally posted by pinguin

No. I don't understand the difference: they are both human beings.

 

 

Oh yeah, then maybe every sperm is sacred too :-)

 

Originally posted by pinguin

 

I wonder why Brazil is so patient with these clowns, and doesn't deport more "go-dooers". If you guy try it in my country, you'll be kicked off.

 

 

Because Brasil maybe also want to be a part of the international community.

 

It´s strange how many Latin Americans complain a lot over Europe and international solidarity. But when there are some

political problem in some Latin American countries there are a lot of them fleing to Europe.

For example during Pinochet in Chile time tens of thousands of refugees went to Sweden. And we also have

refugees from Peru, Bolivia, Brasil, Colombia, Argentina, Equador, Paraguay and you name it. When these people

needed Europe (including Sweden) then Europe was not so bad after all. But if some people from Europe happens

to critizise crimes against the indigenous populations in Latin America then there is a big outcry of indignation.

 



Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 20-May-2009 at 13:31
Originally posted by Carcharodon

Oh yeah, then maybe every sperm is sacred too :-)

 

 

I see that you don't understand it at all. And with those ideas you want to preach moral values. You make me recall the classical Spanish saying "don't preach the Gospels with the zipper open" LOL 

 

Originally posted by Carcharodon

 Because Brasil maybe also want to be a part of the international community.

 

Brazil is part of the international community.

 

Originally posted by Carcharodon

It´s strange how many Latin Americans complain a lot over Europe and international solidarity. But when there are some

political problem in some Latin American countries there are a lot of them fleing to Europe.

 

 

The complain is with Europe intervention in the Americas. After all, communism was an European invention, wasn't? Fascism was also an European invention! And were those germs and the dissease that caused in Latin America the cause of the refugees we sent to Europe.

Now, don't cry too much for refugees. We have received dozens of millions of European refugees in the Americas, too, and we don't complain.

 

Originally posted by Carcharodon

For example during Pinochet in Chile time tens of thousands of refugees went to Sweden. And we also have

refugees from Peru, Bolivia, Brasil, Colombia, Argentina, Equador, Paraguay and you name it. When these people

needed Europe (including Sweden) then Europe was not so bad after all.

 

 

That's true.

 

Originally posted by Carcharodon

But if some people from Europe happens

to critizise crimes against the indigenous populations in Latin America then there is a big outcry of indignation.

 

 

It is not the crimes against the indigenous what Latin Americans complain. We complain about those topics as well, and fight to fixed up.

What we complain is for patronizing. Also for stereotyping such as "all Latinos are corrupt". "All are mean and don't care". "All live in favelas".

 

Of course, when extremists like the ETA want to start indigenous revolts with our natives, we don't complain but jail them or deport.

The same for Europeans that came here to export drugs, or to bring extasis.

 

 

 



-------------


Posted By: Carcharodon
Date Posted: 20-May-2009 at 17:45
Originally posted by pinguin

 

I see that you don't understand it at all. And with those ideas you want to preach moral values. You make me recall the classical Spanish saying "don't preach the Gospels with the zipper open" LOL 

    

 

Maybe my mind is not clouded by 500 years of catholic propaganda

 

Originally posted by pinguin

 

Brazil is part of the international community.   

  

  

Yes than they just ought to act like that too.

 

Originally posted by pinguin

 

The complain is with Europe intervention in the Americas. After all, communism was an European invention, wasn't? Fascism was also an European invention! And were those germs and the dissease that caused in Latin America the cause of the refugees we sent to Europe.

Now, don't cry too much for refugees. We have received dozens of millions of European refugees in the Americas, too, and we don't complain.

 

  

The thing is that Latin American countries are partly a product of Europes intervention in

 the American continent.  (unfortunately for the indigenous peoples). And many ideas from old
Europe still lives there, among other the colonial mentality that makes people over there think
they just can invade and exploit indigenous land.
 
Originally posted by pinguin

It is not the crimes against the indigenous what Latin Americans complain. We complain about those topics as well, and fight to fixed up.

What we complain is for patronizing. Also for stereotyping such as "all Latinos are corrupt". "All are mean and don't care". "All live in favelas".

 
 

 

Noones said all Latin Americans are corrupt evel or live in Favelas.

Some people are like that and some people live in Favelas too. It´s just a fact.

Originally posted by pinguin

 

Of course, when extremists like the ETA want to start indigenous revolts with our natives, we don't complain but jail them or deport.

The same for Europeans that came here to export drugs, or to bring extasis.

 

The protests against the Xingu dam is hardly a work of ETA. It´s just people who don´t want to have their homes and lives destroyed

and drowned by a huge dam.

 

 

 



Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 20-May-2009 at 18:07
Originally posted by Carcharodon

...

Maybe my mind is not clouded by 500 years of catholic propaganda

  
 
I am agnostic, thanks. But I can see the problem you have with the zipper LOL.
 

Originally posted by Carcharodon

...

Yes than they just ought to act like that too.

 
  
 
They do. 
http://www.funai.gov.br/frames/menu_lado.htm - http://www.funai.gov.br/frames/menu_lado.htm
 

Originally posted by Carcharodon

...

The thing is that Latin American countries are partly a product of Europes intervention in

 the American continent.  (unfortunately for the indigenous peoples). And many ideas from old
Europe still lives there, among other the colonial mentality that makes people over there think
they just can invade and exploit indigenous land.
  
 
We are free. It has costed us a lot of blood, humilliations and suffering to achieve that. We don't need the advice of our former masters.
And with respect to old Europe, indeed we find that today Europe is in decadence, that has lost its spirit and its values. Hardly an example to follow anymore.
Originally posted by Carcharodon

...

Noones said all Latin Americans are corrupt evel or live in Favelas.

Some people are like that and some people live in Favelas too. It´s just a fact.

 
 

 

Aren't any poors in Europe. I have seen certain reports on the way people live in the poor neighbours of Italy, France or Neetherlands that could scare anyone.

 

Originally posted by Carcharodon

...

The protests against the Xingu dam is hardly a work of ETA. It´s just people who don´t want to have their homes and lives destroyed

and drowned by a huge dam.

 
If that the case, why don't you better fool around with China?
 
 
 
 


-------------


Posted By: Carcharodon
Date Posted: 20-May-2009 at 20:51
Originally posted by pinguin

I am agnostic, thanks. But I can see the problem you have with the zipper LOL.
  
 
Better take care of the children that are born than get hunged up about fetuses.
 

Originally posted by pinguin

 
They do. 
http://www.funai.gov.br/frames/menu_lado.htm - http://www.funai.gov.br/frames/menu_lado.htm
 
 
 
Not everyone in Brazil do.
 

Originally posted by pinguin

 
We are free. It has costed us a lot of blood, humilliations and suffering to achieve that. We don't need the advice of our former masters.
And with respect to old Europe, indeed we find that today Europe is in decadence, that has lost its spirit and its values. Hardly an example to follow anymor

 
 

 

International solidarity is global. Not only Europeans react against injustices against indigenous peoples

in America and other parts of the world.

 

 

Originally posted by pinguin

Aren't any poors in Europe. I have seen certain reports on the way people live in the poor neighbours of Italy,

France or Neetherlands that could scare anyone.

  

 

There are problems everywhere, that doesn´t free Brasil from any responsibility in their actions

against indigenous people.

 

 

Originally posted by pinguin

If that the case, why don't you better fool around with China?

 
 

 

There are many of us that protest against that too.

 
 
 
 


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 20-May-2009 at 21:08
Originally posted by Carcharodon

...
 Better take care of the children that are born than get hunged up about fetuses.
  
 
You don't see your inconsistencies, do you? You are like those countries that talk about freedom and invade others. Or talk and human rights and that still have death penalty in place. Or those others that talk about protection of the children in Africa and promote eutanasia.
Or those others that feed the poors children of Africa and promote abortion at home. Or those that talk about environment and kill whales. Or those that talk about humanism and trade with radioactive waste!
Nope Sir. If you wish to preach morals you should check it out your zipper IS close.
 


-------------


Posted By: drgonzaga
Date Posted: 20-May-2009 at 21:23
Hey folks, the theme of this history forum is "Empires" and within the general consensus of modern diplomacy and precepts of the United Nations, non-intervention in the internal affairs of duly constituted states is a sine qua non. Yes, there are fancy phrases such as the old Wilsonian "self-determination of peoples" but, in the real world the clash of social and economic interests raise many phantoms. Given this Media driven age, many an advocacy group appoints itself the guardians against their particular devils regardless of whether there are in place political mechanism addressing abuses. Often, these critics adopt patronizing attitudes and shape evil stereotypes or proclaim catastrophe for personal profit. In many ways, most modern advocacy groups generate "cash cows" on whose teats feed a myriad of professionals who shape lucrative professions on the backs of the helpless. Let us call them secular missionaries embarked upon international "conversion". Many, have other political objectives as well and the present discussion provides an excellent example of convergence between ecologists, global warming fanatics, and social scientists, who believe their notions are to come before the immediate problems faced by a larger society. In terms of European intellectuals this phenomenon is hardly new since that continent has a long history of knowing "what's best" for everyone else.
 
In the context of economic and social problems facing the Brazilian government (and here we are not confronting some out-of-the-way hell hole), one must keep in mind that we are addressing a nation with an estimated 200 million people. Metropolitan Sao Paulo has more people within its bounds than all of Sweden combined! Since the 1950s, Brazilians have clearly understood that the social and economic integrity of their nation depends entirely upon the proper development of all their resources. But, suddenly, they are now confronting groups that in many ways wish to turn two-thirds of their national territory into some form of wilderness preserve! Toward that end these gropus latch onto all type of exaggerations and reach fro historical stereotypes suitable for whatever campaign they mount for the moment. Sorry folks, but the protection of isolated Amerinds does pre-date the appearance of both Sting and Bono on the world stage and the maintenance of ecological balance concerned Brazilians long before people croaked about Rain Forests and Carbon sinks. One need only peruse the pages of the many reports by scientists at the Instituto Brasileiro de Geografia e Estadistica going back to the 1930s to grasp this fact. Nevertheless, many European and American "intellectuals" find it difficult to recognize their own paternalistic hubris when discussing Brazil. Further, out of ignorance they coflate entirely different situations and project horror stories of exploitation premised upon isolated Amerinds and others with long histories of contact and aculturation.
 
These new advocates of the infamous 19th century Amerindian "reservations" in North America--or modern day life upon these tracts within the United States--have no real understanding of what they are wishing for...


Posted By: Carcharodon
Date Posted: 20-May-2009 at 21:26
Originally posted by pinguin
You don't see your inconsistencies, do you? You are like those countries that talk about freedom and invade others. Or talk and human rights and that still have death penalty in place. Or those others that talk about protection of the children in Africa and promote eutanasia.
Or those others that feed the poors children of Africa and promote abortion at home. Or those that talk about environment and kill whales. Or those that talk about humanism and trade with radioactive waste!
Nope Sir. If you wish to preach morals you should check it out your zipper IS close.
 [/QUOTE

 
As stated, fetuses is a part of the womans body, if she want to keep it or not is up to her, not for
others to descide based upon superstition emanating from the church.
 
As stated, fetuses is a part of the womans body, if she want to keep it or not is up to her, not for
others to descide based upon superstition emanating from the church.


Posted By: drgonzaga
Date Posted: 20-May-2009 at 21:31
Originally posted by Carcharodon

Originally posted by pinguin
You don't see your inconsistencies, do you? You are like those countries that talk about freedom and invade others. Or talk and human rights and that still have death penalty in place. Or those others that talk about protection of the children in Africa and promote eutanasia.
Or those others that feed the poors children of Africa and promote abortion at home. Or those that talk about environment and kill whales. Or those that talk about humanism and trade with radioactive waste!
Nope Sir. If you wish to preach morals you should check it out your zipper IS close.
 
 
As stated, fetuses is a part of the womans body, if she want to keep it or not is up to her, not for
others to descide based upon superstition emanating from the church.[/QUOTE

 
Gee, Carcharodon, I did not know that Hypocrates condemned abortion because it was a superstition emanating from the church?
 
Gee, Carcharodon, I did not know that Hypocrates condemned abortion because it was a superstition emanating from the church?


Posted By: Carcharodon
Date Posted: 20-May-2009 at 21:36
Originally posted by drgonzaga

 
Gee, Carcharodon, I did not know that Hypocrates condemned abortion because it was a
superstition emanating from the church?
 
Hippocrates was a product of his time, even more ancient than the church.

 



Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 20-May-2009 at 21:37
Originally posted by Carcharodon

...
As stated, fetuses is a part of the womans body, if she want to keep it or not is up to her, not for
others to descide based upon superstition emanating from the church.
 
If you think that way, why don't let Indians continue killing theirs babies?
From your comment, it is very clear to me that you have not much worthly to teach.
After all, you stated your own supersticion in the above paragraph, that I remarked LOL.
 
Keep the zipper close. Or, as the Spanish sayings goes: flies don't enter in closed mouths. Or, by the mouth the fish dies. 
 


-------------


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 20-May-2009 at 21:41
Originally posted by drgonzaga

Hey folks, the theme of this history forum is "Empires" and within the general consensus of modern diplomacy and precepts of the United Nations, non-intervention in the internal affairs of duly constituted states is a sine qua non. Yes, there are fancy phrases such as the old Wilsonian "self-determination of peoples" but, in the real world the clash of social and economic interests raise many phantoms. Given this Media driven age, many an advocacy group appoints itself the guardians against their particular devils regardless of whether there are in place political mechanism addressing abuses. Often, these critics adopt patronizing attitudes and shape evil stereotypes or proclaim catastrophe for personal profit. In many ways, most modern advocacy groups generate "cash cows" on whose teats feed a myriad of professionals who shape lucrative professions on the backs of the helpless. Let us call them secular missionaries embarked upon international "conversion". Many, have other political objectives as well and the present discussion provides an excellent example of convergence between ecologists, global warming fanatics, and social scientists, who believe their notions are to come before the immediate problems faced by a larger society. In terms of European intellectuals this phenomenon is hardly new since that continent has a long history of knowing "what's best" for everyone else.
 
In the context of economic and social problems facing the Brazilian government (and here we are not confronting some out-of-the-way hell hole), one must keep in mind that we are addressing a nation with an estimated 200 million people. Metropolitan Sao Paulo has more people within its bounds than all of Sweden combined! Since the 1950s, Brazilians have clearly understood that the social and economic integrity of their nation depends entirely upon the proper development of all their resources. But, suddenly, they are now confronting groups that in many ways wish to turn two-thirds of their national territory into some form of wilderness preserve! Toward that end these gropus latch onto all type of exaggerations and reach fro historical stereotypes suitable for whatever campaign they mount for the moment. Sorry folks, but the protection of isolated Amerinds does pre-date the appearance of both Sting and Bono on the world stage and the maintenance of ecological balance concerned Brazilians long before people croaked about Rain Forests and Carbon sinks. One need only peruse the pages of the many reports by scientists at the Instituto Brasileiro de Geografia e Estadistica going back to the 1930s to grasp this fact. Nevertheless, many European and American "intellectuals" find it difficult to recognize their own paternalistic hubris when discussing Brazil. Further, out of ignorance they coflate entirely different situations and project horror stories of exploitation premised upon isolated Amerinds and others with long histories of contact and aculturation.
 
These new advocates of the infamous 19th century Amerindian "reservations" in North America--or modern day life upon these tracts within the United States--have no real understanding of what they are wishing for...
 
Absolutely agree. You have been very clear and absolutely precise.
 
By the way, even such a small country as my own, Chile, has a capital city with as much people like the whole Sweeden.


-------------


Posted By: Carcharodon
Date Posted: 20-May-2009 at 21:41
Originally posted by pinguin

If you think that way, why don't let Indians continue killing theirs babies.
After all, you stated your own supersticion in the above paragraph, that I remarked LOL.
 
 
As I stated better take care of the born children and give them what they need in life
 than crying over embryos.
 
In Latin america there are too many abandoned children in the streets that noone cares about,
but embryos many people cry over.


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 20-May-2009 at 21:57
So if somebody is going to suffer it is better to be dead? Would you unplug your gramma from the machine yourself?

-------------


Posted By: Carcharodon
Date Posted: 20-May-2009 at 22:08
Originally posted by pinguin

So if somebody is going to suffer it is better to be dead? Would you unplug your gramma from the machine yourself?
 
If you are not born than you cannot die.


Posted By: drgonzaga
Date Posted: 20-May-2009 at 22:11
Originally posted by Carcharodon

Originally posted by drgonzaga

 
Gee, Carcharodon, I did not know that Hypocrates condemned abortion because it was a
superstition emanating from the church?
 
Hippocrates was a product of his time, even more ancient than the church.
 
There's an old Spanish maxim you should keep in mind Carch:
 
"Mas sabe el diablo por anciano que por diablo"
 
"The devil knows more because he's ancient than because he's the devil."



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