IRA Attacks In N.Ireland
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Topic: IRA Attacks In N.Ireland
Posted By: Dolphin
Subject: IRA Attacks In N.Ireland
Date Posted: 10-Mar-2009 at 16:35
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I live on the border between Northern Ireland and the Republic, and when the story broke about the deaths of two British soldiers in Antrim, followed a day later by the death of a PSNI police officer, by dissident Republicans (the 'Real' and 'Continuity' IRA), there was an immediate outpouring of anger by everybody, regardless of religious or political persuasion. After years and years of fighting nobody wants to see this mindlessness seeping back into the North, and the sheer idiocy of the IRA has really been highlighted. In a time of quite severe economic problems, these people have decided to try to undo years of hard work and dedication from politicians and communities alike to make Northen Ireland a progressive and inclusive place, in a cynical attempt to recruit new members as avaiable jobs decrease. Not only have all the political parties in the North, including Sinn Fein condemned the murders, but this time there is a real determination not to allow these outdated, terrorist rednecks to sabotage our Island for their own means and to the detriment of future generations. The implications are quite severe, should their actions be allowed to generate and resurface old divides, as dissident Loyalist groups could feel compelled to retaliate, and all other saboteurs in whatever shape they take could begin trying to stir up community divides in places that were seeing real progress. This weekend gone by has been a cynical attempt to undermine the political power-sharing process in the North, and I truly hope it will fail, and that these thugs are rooted out so that they can never hold decent people at ransom again. The deaths of the two soldiers is an example of the kind of mindsets (and people) that Northern Ireland has been trying to purge for 40+ years. The two soldiers were off duty, unarmed, and waiting to collect a pizza as a final meal before they headed out on a tour to Afghanistan. They were gunned down, then shot tens of times as they lay on the ground. The two pizza delivery men were also seriously injured. Gone are the times of 'legitimate targets', these two men could not even defend themselves as soldiers, instead they were executed with the true redneck grace of the new terrorist IRA breed. The media feeds are untidy, unfortunately.
BREAKING NEWS4:09pm UK, Tuesday March 10, 2009 A dissident republican group called the Continuity IRA have said they were behind the the murder of police constable Stephen Carroll in Northern Ireland. Stephen Carroll had served in the police for over 20 years In a coded message, they said the shooting in Craigavon was carried out by their north Armagh battalion. The message said: "As long as there is British involvement in Ireland, these attacks will continue." The killing followed the murder of British soldiers Mark Quinsey, 23, and Patrick Azimkar, 21, outside the Massareene Barracks in Antrim on Saturday. Mr Carroll, 48, was shot dead after he and a colleague answered a woman's call for help in the predominantly Catholic Lismore Manor area. Police say they are looking for a man in a light coloured top who was spotted running from the scene afterwards. Police Service of Northern Ireland (PSNI) chief constable http://indepth.news.sky.com/InDepth/topic/hugh_orde - He vowed: "We will pursue those responsible to the ends of the earth."
Mr Carroll, from Banbridge, County Down, was reportedly sitting in his car when he was shot in the head at close range. Chief Superintendent Alan Todd said he had given 23 years of service to the community as a police officer. "We have this morning colleagues without a workmate, a wife without a husband, a son without a father and grandchildren without their grandfather," he said. "It is a desperate loss. My question to the people who perpetrated this is 'What have they got to offer?'" Northern Ireland's First Minister http://indepth.news.sky.com/InDepth/topic/Peter_Robinson - The pair were about to catch a flight to the US from London but decided to return to Belfast instead to meet security chiefs. Mr Robinson said: "I unreservedly condemn this evil deed and offer my sincere sympathy to the officer's family circle."  Police are stepping up security Northern Ireland Secretary http://indepth.news.sky.com/InDepth/topic/shaun_woodward - He told Sky News: "These very wicked people may have the power to kill but they do not have the power to wreck the peace process." Prime Minister Gordon Brown, who visited Ireland on Monday, insisted: "There will be no return to the old days." The http://www.psni.police.uk/ -  Sappers Patrick Azimkar and Mark Quinsey Meanwhile, it is hoped a getaway car used by the http://indepth.news.sky.com/InDepth/topic/real_ira_And_Ireland - The green Vauxhall Cavalier was found seven miles from the Massereene Barracks. Attempts to set it alight had failed. Detectives are also combing CCTV footage of the shooting in which four other people were wounded, one of them seriously. http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/UK-News/Northern-Ireland-Shooting-Magnificent-Soldiers-Praised-As-PM-Gordon-Brown-Visits-NI-Barracks/Article/200903215237330?lid=ARTICLE_15237330_NorthernIrelandShooting:MagnificentSoldiersPraisedAsPMGordonBrownVisitsNIBarracks&lpos=searchresults - The attackers opened fire as the soldiers went to collect delivery pizzas outside the front gate of the base. The Real IRA has claimed responsibility for last night's attack in which two British soldiers were shot dead in Co Antrim. It is understood the dissident republican group made a phone call to a journalist in the Sunday Tribune newspaper and used a recognised codename. The two soldiers were shot dead and four other people seriously injured during the attack on a British Army base in Antrim town. The shooting occurred shortly before 10pm as pizzas from a local business were being delivered. During two long bursts of gunfire, the two soldiers in their 20s were shot dead and four people, including two civilians, were seriously injured. The PSNI has confirmed that two of the men injured were the employees of a pizza delivery company. One man has been named locally as 19-year-old Anthony Watson. His condition has been described as serious. The condition of the second man, a 32-year-old Polish national is said to be critical. The other two injured men were British soldiers at the base. The gunmen made off as a fleet of ambulances rushed to the scene. Chief Superintendent Derek Williamson said: 'I have no doubt in my mind this was an attempt at mass murder. 'Last night two very young men lost their lives in a very callous and a very ruthless attack by terrorists who have no thought and had no thought last night for anyone who was in the vicinity. 'It's clear from what we know at this stage that the terrorists not only wanted to kill soldiers who were there last night, but also tried to kill those two pizza delivery men. 'The gunmen, having fired an initial volley of shots, moved forward when people were on the ground and fired additional shots at those people on the ground.' Police are understood to be examining a car found abandoned in the nearby town of Randalstown. Officers are trying to establish whether the vehicle was used in the shooting. The Irish and British governments have affirmed their commitment that the will of the people will be upheld in Northern Ireland. Taoiseach Brian Cowen condemned the attack and conveyed by phone a message of sympathy over the deaths to the British Prime Minister. Gordon Brown described the attack as 'evil' and said 'no murderer' would derail the peace process. PSNI Chief Constable Hugh Orde insisted there were no plans to increase the number of special forces in Northern Ireland. Meanwhile, hundreds of people walked silently to the edge of the police cordon earlier today and stood together amid the floral tributes. Local priest Father Tony Devlin said 'We don't want to go back to this. Nobody wants to go back to this in any way at all. We don't want those years of the past, they were horrible years for everyone'. Massereene Barracks is the Northern Ireland headquarters of the British Army's engineering division. Since the Good Friday Agreement, the number of soldiers there has been reduced and the base is due to be closed next year. Dissident republican groups carried out gun attacks on police officers in Derry and Dungannon last year and they have repeatedly said they want to kill PSNI members. It is 12 years since Lance Bombadier Stephen Restorick was shot in the back while manning a British Army patrol in Beesbrook, Co Armagh. Until last night, he was the last British soldier killed in Northern Ireland. Political condemnation There has been widespread condemnation of the killings. British Prime Minister Gordon Brown (below) insisted that the killings would not derail the peace process. 'I can assure you that we will bring these people to justice,' Mr Brown vowed in his first comments on the shootings. 'No murderer will be able to derail a peace process that has the support of the vast majority of the people of Northern Ireland and we will step up our efforts to make the peace process one that lasts and endures.' The Taoiseach Brian Cowen said violence had been utterly rejected by the people of this island and a tiny evil group could not undermine the will of the people to live in peace together. A spokesperson for the US State Department called on all parties in the North to unequivocally reject what he called such senseless acts of violence, whose intention was to destroy the peace that so many had worked hard to achieve. Northern Secretary Shaun Woodward described the shooting as an 'act of criminal barbarism'. Northern Ireland's First Minister Peter Robinson and Deputy First Minister Martin McGuinness were due to travel tomorrow to the US but have postponed their visit. The DUP leader said the shootings were a 'terrible reminder of the events of the past'. |
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Replies:
Posted By: Parnell
Date Posted: 10-Mar-2009 at 18:12
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I was going to post something about this earlier but didn't have the energy. These barbarians have sucked all the enthusiasm out of me. The worst thing is, go in to most rural pubs and a fair number of them would be laughing and joking about this. Makes me sick. ------------- |
Posted By: Spartakus
Date Posted: 10-Mar-2009 at 22:54
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"Terrorism" is not a monopoly of the Islamic world after all.....
------------- "There are worse crimes than burning books. One of them is not reading them. " --- Joseph Alexandrovitch Brodsky, 1991, Russian-American poet, b. St. Petersburg and exiled 1972 (1940-1996) |
Posted By: eaglecap
Date Posted: 10-Mar-2009 at 23:01
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Sad they are at it again or at least I have not heard as much lately so I thought this was over. I decided not to go to Belfast when I was in Ireland because of one bombing, one bar shooting and the racist shooting of a black cabbie. What is the agenda of these extremist? Is it still the same? With the Republic of Ireland becoming part of the EU I thought this would be over. Dolphin what is going on? ------------- Λοιπόν, αδελφοί και οι συμπολίτες και οι στρατιώτες, να θυμάστε αυτό ώστε μνημόσυνο σας, φήμη και ελευθερία σας θα ε |
Posted By: xristar
Date Posted: 10-Mar-2009 at 23:06
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Excuse my ignorance, but what is the whole deal with Northern Ireland. I know, I should check wikipedia first, but I think the lads can explain better (more objective I mean), since wikipedia is prone to propaganda. Do the people of Northern Ireland want union with Ireland or not? What is Irish? How do you define Irish, since the irish language is almost dead, and irish people speak english instead? ------------- 
Defeat allows no explanation Victory needs none. It insults the dead when you treat life carelessly. |
Posted By: Paul
Date Posted: 10-Mar-2009 at 23:10
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------------- Light blue touch paper and stand well back http://www.maquahuitl.co.uk - http://www.maquahuitl.co.uk http://www.toltecitztli.co.uk - http://www.toltecitztli.co.uk |
Posted By: Paul
Date Posted: 10-Mar-2009 at 23:11
Nice to see the American media is keeping the public so well informed.
The question I always ask Americans is why do the Americans make such a fuss about Britain occupying a mere six counties but never bother about the four occupied by France and two by Holland.
Perhaps you can enlighten me. ------------- Light blue touch paper and stand well back http://www.maquahuitl.co.uk - http://www.maquahuitl.co.uk http://www.toltecitztli.co.uk - http://www.toltecitztli.co.uk |
Posted By: eaglecap
Date Posted: 10-Mar-2009 at 23:13
They have never had a monopoly on terror but currently the majority of terror attacks are Islamic but there are also other crazy groups like the Tamil Tigers, Buddhist. Communist in Nepal are also very extreme and tend to blow things up. I had a friend who stayed in Nepal and he told me that the extreme communist were a real threat there but that was in 2005. I almost went to teach English there but decided not to I cannot stand these savages bringing Ireland back down and they should be hunted down. People no matter their beliefs can choose to do evil so I blame it on the human condition and no particular religion has a monopoly on terror. I hope peace comes to Ireland fast, afterall, I am part Irish. ------------- Λοιπόν, αδελφοί και οι συμπολίτες και οι στρατιώτες, να θυμάστε αυτό ώστε μνημόσυνο σας, φήμη και ελευθερία σας θα ε |
Posted By: eaglecap
Date Posted: 10-Mar-2009 at 23:19
I am not aware of this so please enlighten me. I only hate to see people killed by such evil and cowardly methods. You are right I have not heard anything about this so I was caught off guard. I will have to tune into Savage Nation and see if Mike is saying anything about this. http://michaelsavage.wnd.com/ - http://michaelsavage.wnd.com/ ------------- Λοιπόν, αδελφοί και οι συμπολίτες και οι στρατιώτες, να θυμάστε αυτό ώστε μνημόσυνο σας, φήμη και ελευθερία σας θα ε |
Posted By: Dolphin
Date Posted: 10-Mar-2009 at 23:37
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@eaglecap and xristar. I'll try to explain some of the situation to the best of my knowledge. I may not be objective, as I despise these extremists, and the history of this goes back hundreds of years, but the more recent situation is clear cut. Wiki would be a more in depth source than me, there really is too much to it. The IRA, or Irish Republican Army has been around since the Irish War of independence between 1919 and 1921. This army was formed to represent those who disagreed with the Anglo-Irish treaty which agreed the cessation of violence and the beginnings of some form of power-sharing between the British rulers and the Irish people. They had one true cause, and that was the unification of the island of Ireland. This 'true' IRA lasted until 1969, when the IRA split and became numerous splinter groups who vowed to continue the armed fight for independence. Then came 'The Troubles'... Then came ceasefire. Violence. Ceasefire. Skip to 1998, when the Good Friday agreement was signed, which allowed... The Agreement's main provisions included the:
(you can see I can't write this all myself) Essentially, the Good Friday agreement meant an end to armed hostilities in the North, the IRA agreed a ceasefire and to having its weapons destroyed (this never really happened). From this point on, there has been little to no action taken by the IRA or its numerous splinter groups (Real and Continuity IRA being the most notable), but the groups never dissipated, they merely boiled over under the surface. This weekend saw the first attack against British soldiers in the North by the IRA in ten years, and this is why it is so angering and also worrying. Basically, I see this as an attempt to stir up hatred in the North in order to recruit new members in the weak economic climate, and continue a fight that everybody else knew was over. I liken the perpetrators to the Japanese soldier who fought WW2 long after it was over. The rest of the world has moved on, these people are still living in the past. The IRA, far from it's original goal of freeing Ireland from British oppression, has become a truly criminal organisation (legally criminal since 1998 I believe also), and is involved in gun running, fuel smuggling, and general thuggery for years, and held a ransom over some communities, who could not argue for fear of their lives. Their objectives are clear. 1: Kill British soldiers to try and increase the amount of soldiers on the streets. This would increase tension and bring people's mindsets back to the 1980's, when the troubles were at their peak. 2: Kill Catholic members of the PSNI, to discourage Catholics from joining a 'traitorous' police force. 3: Undermine the political power-sharing process between Catholic/Portestant, Loyalist/Nationalist/Republicanist (some of these terms are almost obsolete or misleading), leading to a breakdown of communication and a return to a war of words, which in turn leads to murders on the ground. 4: Terrorise ordinary people, and from this try and influence their behaviour towards and allegiance to their cause against the oppressor. 5: Unite Ireland as one entity. lol. lol. lol. This objective is their smokescreen really. A united Ireland is the mantra by which they justify their illegal activities and is not their primary objective. This is the group that murdered the two British soldiers (wiki is less taxing on my fingers and my brain). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Real_IRA This is the group that killed the PSNI Constable. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continuity_IRA ------------- |
Posted By: Dolphin
Date Posted: 10-Mar-2009 at 23:41
So good you posted it twice. What Americans were making a fuss? Perhaps you can enlighten us all. ------------- |
Posted By: eaglecap
Date Posted: 10-Mar-2009 at 23:41
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I will have to get back to this but many thanks ------------- Λοιπόν, αδελφοί και οι συμπολίτες και οι στρατιώτες, να θυμάστε αυτό ώστε μνημόσυνο σας, φήμη και ελευθερία σας θα ε |
Posted By: Constantine XI
Date Posted: 10-Mar-2009 at 23:43
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I can only echo the sentiments of other posters, in saying that it is terrible that all the good will which has been built up has been hit hard by these extremists. Do other members here think that this incident will lead to an escalation in violence, or can it be contained as an aberration from the overall move towards peaceful coexistence?
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Posted By: Dolphin
Date Posted: 11-Mar-2009 at 00:07
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http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/UK-News/Northern-Ireland-30-Years-Of-The-Troubles---A-History-In-Pictures/Media-Gallery/20061011236090?lpos=UK_News_Article_Related_Content_Region_4&lid=GALLERY_1236090_Northern_Ireland%3A_30_Years_Of_The_Troubles_-_A_History_In_Pictures ------------- |
Posted By: Parnell
Date Posted: 11-Mar-2009 at 09:35
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Dolphin made a good post, but just wanted to explain that the history of the IRA is very complicated, as is the history of Irish Republicanism generally. Factionalism and splits are frequent, and often groups oppose each other on tribal grounds (For example, the Continuity IRA has important bases in some of the worst areas of Northern Ireland, such as some of the estates in Craigavon where that policeman was shot recently. The Real IRA still have a presence in Belfast) The worst attack in the Troubles, which actually occured after GFA, was in Omagh Town in 1998 where 28 civilians were blown up. I actually had a distant relative die in that explosion. The IRA were the offshoot of the Irish Volunteers (Former in 1913 in opposition to the Ulster Volunteer Force, a Protestant Unionist paramilitary group) The UVF were extremely well armed and trained. They were lead for the most part by former British army Colonels and men of higher rank (The Northern aristocracy has a long military tradition within the British army) They could command a huge arsenal of rifles and had obscene ammunition, the British authorities passed a blind eye to their training and preparation for Civil war in 1913/1914. This goes back before the actual Republican movement towards the constitutional efforts at Home Rule by John Redmond. The Irish Volunteers had a few thousand rifles, were poorly trained and disciplined but seemed ready to fight Ulster should the Civil War break out. People forget that Ulster and the rest of Ireland were on the verge of an all out war in 1914 before WWI broke out. During the war, most of the UVF joined the army and fought on the Western Front. In UVF folklore, the massacre of the unionists at Thiepval Wood at the Somme (Where thousands died in one engagement) is celebrated in July, along with their Orange marches on the 12th. In Easter 1916 a group of poet revolutionaries, led by the insane Patrick Pearse, occupied a certain number of buildings in Dublin and fought a week long battle against the meagre British forces in the capital. After the trouble cleared up, after about a week, most of the leaders were executed. The war was incredibly unpopular, but most Irish people dispised the Easter rebels. Many saw Pearse and co. as insane. (I certainly do) However, as they began to be executed, public opinion slowly turned to sympathy. In 1918, as the war in Europe was reaching its hottest stages, the British tried to introduce conscription into Ireland - a massive mistake. Sinn Féin, who rapidly became the political party of Irish Republicanism, waged a stunning election campaign, uniting those most dissafected and even began to discredit the constitutionalist Home Rule party. The election saw an overwhelming victory for Sinn Féin in the south, but in the north, as ever, the Unionists won their vote. The divisions between the two were as strong as ever. In the war of Independence, a small cadre of men operated in Dublin, and in Munster. The IRA could command large numbers of men, but so few were armed it was pointless. Instead, the best men were organised into flying columns, who ambushed and hit the British forces wherever they could. Arms and ammunition were limited but they fought with great spirity - in fact, people should read their memoirs. The obstacles thrown in front of these young men were phenonomal. The brutality of the British - the Black and Tans - helped to bring the people behind them. When all said and done the fighting in Ireland was almost exclusively in the south and in Dublin, much of the country never fired a bullet against the British. The groups of columns, brigade, batallions and all the rest were however organised under a loosely organised 'Irish Republican Army', which swore allegiance to the Dáil and the Irish Republic. The Treaty split, where most of the IRA went anti-treaty is a good example of its tendency to fragment. Sorry for spouting on here, but I'm coming to my point. Concurrently, in the north, a northern government was established with the Government of Ireland act in 1920 (As was a southern government, which went unrecognised by Sinn Féin and the IRA) Thousands of catholics were kicked out of the main shipyards in Belfast, and the new organs of the Northern State - the hated and infamous B Specials - launched what can only be described as a pogrom against Catholics. Almost an equal number of people died in the north during the war of independence, even though the IRA were extremely weak there and launched very few attacks. The Northern government did, over the ensuing years, create raft of legislation which was deemed anti-catholic (This is more myth than fact, but there is no doubt that catholics were discriminated against) The IRA were always a presence but did very little except in the mid 1930s, the late 1950s and of course in the troubles (1969-1997) The IRA were very well armed and funded (We can blame the Americans for that) It is true that the northern catholics did face discrimination, and this does explain the support base of the IRA in the north during the troubles, but this is often overstated. Most northern catholics voted for the constitutionalists, the SDLP, a non violent political party opposed to the IRA. Historians estimate maybe around 10-15% of northern Catholics actively helped the IRA, around 50% passively sympathised, letting them stay in the house 'on the run', nursing them maybe or helping them escape, but generally would do the same if a British soldier came to the door. The rest were solidly opposed to the IRA, a fact many forget. Nevertheless, with Good Friday, everyone breated a sigh of relief. A few dissidents, like the Real IRA split from the Provisional IRA. They have very few arms and little political or moral direction. The Continuity IRA split in 1986. I don't think we're looking at a return to the troubles. They have no political movement, they represent no-one, and although some undoubtedly sympathise, they have no popular support. Sorry for spouting on, but as you can see it would be easy to write a 100 page post about this, the history of the IRA and Ireland generally is very complex, where seemingly small events are extremely important to understand the greater picture. ------------- |
Posted By: Parnell
Date Posted: 11-Mar-2009 at 09:52
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Just to add, never trust wikipedia on this. Their articles are edited either by fanatical Republicans or loyalists. Some of the things I've seen there is absurd.
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Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 11-Mar-2009 at 11:02
Which two counties? Not that I'm being all defensively nationalist about it, it's just that I've got no idea what you are referring to. ------------- |
Posted By: Al Jassas
Date Posted: 11-Mar-2009 at 14:47
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I find it funny when Britain comes to the rescue and sends it troops thousands of Kms to Afghanistan to fight people who haven't targeted Britain yet, make a lot of fuss about supporting "home grown" terror from Pakistan and elsewhere while the IRA which killed much more Brits than Al-Qaeda is funded, harboured and trained in both their "greatest ally" that took it upon itself to declare war on terror and of course in the Irish republic.
Al-Jassas
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Posted By: Paul
Date Posted: 11-Mar-2009 at 16:44
 Let me get this right.
1. I believe you're talking about the PIRA when the post is about RIRA.
2. PIRA were mostly armed and funded and by Libya, they trained amongst other places at PLO bases.
3. No war on the Republic of Ireland has even been declared and from what I remember there has been hardly any terrorism there, the odd attack by the UFF or UVF or whatever but that's all. (and one racehorse shot) ------------- Light blue touch paper and stand well back http://www.maquahuitl.co.uk - http://www.maquahuitl.co.uk http://www.toltecitztli.co.uk - http://www.toltecitztli.co.uk |
Posted By: Temujin
Date Posted: 11-Mar-2009 at 17:22
that was not terrorism, terrorism is randomly targeting civilians. none of them were civilians. |
Posted By: Paul
Date Posted: 11-Mar-2009 at 17:33
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The police are civilians. ------------- Light blue touch paper and stand well back http://www.maquahuitl.co.uk - http://www.maquahuitl.co.uk http://www.toltecitztli.co.uk - http://www.toltecitztli.co.uk |
Posted By: Temujin
Date Posted: 11-Mar-2009 at 17:46
| they are most certainly not, carrying weapons and wearing uniforms doesn't exactly make one civilian... |
Posted By: Al Jassas
Date Posted: 11-Mar-2009 at 18:02
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Hello Paul
Many in the Irish government were supporters of the PIRA during the troubles and much of the funding and many of the terrorists came from the US just as they did from Libya. I remember once Reagan refused to hand terrorists to his beloved maggie back in the 80s despite being convicted.
As for this not being terrorism, I guess Temu you have no problem with the attack on the marines in Germany back in the 80s, after all they were soldiers.
Al-Jassas
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Posted By: Temujin
Date Posted: 11-Mar-2009 at 18:07
| which marines? Germany doesn't have any naval infantry.... |
Posted By: Parnell
Date Posted: 11-Mar-2009 at 18:12
There were a few, but once they were exposed it quickly became a massive public scandel. Many is certainly an example of taking liberties with exaggerations. I think you'll find it hard to find more than a handful of Irish government ministers at any time actively helping or even supporting the PIRA during the Troubles. Frankly your talking out of your ass, though you are correct in that the Americans did help pay for the considerably large PIRA arsenal. ------------- |
Posted By: Al Jassas
Date Posted: 11-Mar-2009 at 18:18
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The disco bombing in 86
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1986_Berlin_discotheque_bombing - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1986_Berlin_discotheque_bombing
AL-Jassas
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Posted By: Temujin
Date Posted: 11-Mar-2009 at 18:27
| this is obviously terrorism since random civilians were also affected. |
Posted By: Al Jassas
Date Posted: 11-Mar-2009 at 18:39
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The Pizza dilevry guys also were innocent civilians who nearly died in this attack.
Al-Jassas
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Posted By: Paul
Date Posted: 11-Mar-2009 at 18:40
If the police are not civilians then every single country on earth is presently under martial law.
In most countries the police fall under civil authority, in the UK local government and a police commitee made up of locally elected civil councillers. They are subject to civil law, have no rights to make summary judgement and have to prosecute through the judicial system. The police are by definition a civil alternative to the military. ------------- Light blue touch paper and stand well back http://www.maquahuitl.co.uk - http://www.maquahuitl.co.uk http://www.toltecitztli.co.uk - http://www.toltecitztli.co.uk |
Posted By: Temujin
Date Posted: 11-Mar-2009 at 18:42
so, then the Marquis and similar groupings who attacked German police units where all terrorists and not freedom fighters? 
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Posted By: Paul
Date Posted: 11-Mar-2009 at 18:44
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The definition freedom fighter and terrorist are political interpretations of the act, not a difference in the act itself. ------------- Light blue touch paper and stand well back http://www.maquahuitl.co.uk - http://www.maquahuitl.co.uk http://www.toltecitztli.co.uk - http://www.toltecitztli.co.uk |
Posted By: Dolphin
Date Posted: 11-Mar-2009 at 18:51
This most certainly was terrorism. The two soldiers were off duty, and unless you forgo the brand of civilian forever when you become a soldier, they were civilians. Regardless of the nuances of the soldiers, two completely innocent pizza delivery men were also shot, and the intention was murder. The RIRA stated that they wanted to kill them because the were 'collaborating with the British'. The idiocy of this statement highlights the idiocy of the RIRA. By delivering pizzas they were collaborators? So by buying petrol in the north, by the same logic, you are also a collaborator. In fact, according to these fools, if you engage with the British in any way you are a collaborator. So the years of diesel smuggling across the border did not make these people collaborators themselves? Or the use of a British registration car to make your escape, the taxes of which go to the Queen? Foolish people. But they are terrorists, of that I have no doubt. ------------- |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 11-Mar-2009 at 18:53
Then what was it a powder puff match? Of course it was terrorism, terrorists strike at military targets, too. Just take a look at the USS Cole bombing a few years back in the Gulf - that was an act of terror against the state (USA) by a terrorist organization. We didn't see much of a difference there - unsuspecting human beings killed in uniform or out of it is the same thing. ------------- |
Posted By: Dolphin
Date Posted: 11-Mar-2009 at 18:54
They have come to show solidarity, I believe, with the police and to send a very clear message out to the people who killed Constable Stephen Carroll and the two soldiers that they do not represent them 
Posted By: Paul
Date Posted: 11-Mar-2009 at 18:57
And most islamic terrorist groups of that era bombing US embassies and US marine bases in Lebanon were funded from London, the islamic banks were there, the HQ of most of the groups were there and most of the leaders and tops operatives. In fact this continued right up until the 7/11 tube bombing.
Thatcher and Reagan were pragmatists, Reagan got votes no-matter how misguided from so-called Irish-Americans* and Britain got Arab money. What's a few dead soldiers to either country?
*an interesting fact 3/5 of so-called Irish-Americans are descended not from Gailic Irish but Scots, English and Norman settlers. Though almost 100% delude themselves they are from Gailic irish, a great pub quiz question for a Boston bar. ------------- Light blue touch paper and stand well back http://www.maquahuitl.co.uk - http://www.maquahuitl.co.uk http://www.toltecitztli.co.uk - http://www.toltecitztli.co.uk |
Posted By: Temujin
Date Posted: 11-Mar-2009 at 18:58
occupation troops in foreign countries can also be off duty... the point is there is a clear-cut definition of terrorism, and by using this word you instrumentalize it for your own political agenda if used inaccuartely. some groups instrumentalize the word genocide for their own agendas but what prevents us from calling every war in history as genocide? same goes for terrorism. terrorism can most certainly not applied for each and every case of murder/assassination. as i understand, from the point of view of the perpetrators, the guys in question were occupation troops. furthermore, from what i can see, in both instances the targets were carefully selected and not randomly targeted as would be the case with terrorism. |
Posted By: Dolphin
Date Posted: 11-Mar-2009 at 19:00
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I don't understand your view Paul. What are you trying to say? What has the claim to Irish descent got to do with anything? Your hang-up about this is obviously an enduring one, you haven't let it go since I joined this site. Get over it. What's a few soldiers? You are so right you miss the point completely. ------------- |
Posted By: Temujin
Date Posted: 11-Mar-2009 at 19:02
then the Gulf of Tonkin incident was terrorism as well? |
Posted By: Parnell
Date Posted: 11-Mar-2009 at 19:03
Take it easy. The Presbyterian Scots-Irish emigrants from Ulster, travelled in waves over several hundred years, while the Irish Catholic Gaelic really began to emigrate from the 1840s onwards, meaning the roots of the Scots Irish are deeper and thus more interconnected than the Gaelic Irish. Therefore, those Irish of Scots descent are also Irish since their descendants came from Ireland. Unless you are on of those who denies that Protestants can indeed be Irish? Besides, the Gaelic Celt is an Austrian native. There is no such thing as a 'pure' ethnicity - its that kind of bull that creates this mess. ------------- |
Posted By: Paul
Date Posted: 11-Mar-2009 at 19:03
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try being more coherant ------------- Light blue touch paper and stand well back http://www.maquahuitl.co.uk - http://www.maquahuitl.co.uk http://www.toltecitztli.co.uk - http://www.toltecitztli.co.uk |
Posted By: Al Jassas
Date Posted: 11-Mar-2009 at 19:04
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Then according to your own twisted logic the Palestinians never made a terror attack since every Israeli jew (man or woman) is either a reservist on active duty or will be in active duty or was on active duty. So all are soldiers and thus are legal targets for suicide attacks. Al-Jassas
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Posted By: Dolphin
Date Posted: 11-Mar-2009 at 19:05
You deliberately ignored the rest of my post. Two pizza delivery guys were shot with the intention of murder. Over 60 shots were fired, including on those as they lay on the ground. I don't wish to jump on the 'terrorism' bandwagon, far from it, but I merely state that the behaviour of these people was that of a terrorist, what else is it - domestic feud?. Any political agenda I may have is irrelevant. ------------- |
Posted By: Temujin
Date Posted: 11-Mar-2009 at 19:09
that's not "twisted logic". soldiers being off duty even deep in foreign coutnries is a fact. and opposed to your logic, not everyone who ever served in the military once is a soldier forever. obviously people are not born soldiers. THAT would be "twisted logic" |
Posted By: Al Jassas
Date Posted: 11-Mar-2009 at 19:10
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Actually I am with Paul on the Irish descent thing. I mean most people who claim to be Irish have English, Welsh or scottish surnames including the famed Mr. Gerry Adams. Ireland has been under direct or indirect control from English and Viking (ie Germanic nations) since the 11th century AD. AL-Jassas |
Posted By: Al Jassas
Date Posted: 11-Mar-2009 at 19:12
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SO are Palestinian suicide attacks are legitimate?
This is a yes or no question by the way.
Al-Jassas
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Posted By: Temujin
Date Posted: 11-Mar-2009 at 19:15
it wasn't deliaberate, i didn't knew there were pizza delivery guys invovled until you brought it up, i only got pissed by Spartakus' thoughtless mention of "terroirsm" which seemed inehrently out of context here. i just wanted to make a point regarding the nomenclature of the word terrorism in general. yet, combing back to my cheesy argumentation, the Marquis also shot "collaborators" and whetaher they actually were collaborators or not, no court ever judged. such matters are always difficult. and we could stills ay it was collateral damage. one of the major indications for terrorim is, terrorists usually target locations (as opposed to individuals). |
Posted By: Dolphin
Date Posted: 11-Mar-2009 at 19:18
What does it matter anyway? That is the real question. It only becomes an issue if you make it so. ------------- |
Posted By: Temujin
Date Posted: 11-Mar-2009 at 19:19
as a moderator, i should mention that we should come back to the topic now perhaps...  but before that,
that would include you as well...  |
Posted By: Paul
Date Posted: 11-Mar-2009 at 19:36
Temujin I've refered to you as many things over the years, but never moderate.  ------------- Light blue touch paper and stand well back http://www.maquahuitl.co.uk - http://www.maquahuitl.co.uk http://www.toltecitztli.co.uk - http://www.toltecitztli.co.uk |
Posted By: Panther
Date Posted: 11-Mar-2009 at 19:45
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I don't know which is more depressing, the sad news this thread was meant too highlight, or some of the comments within it? ------------- |
Posted By: Temujin
Date Posted: 11-Mar-2009 at 19:45
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how you dare making fun of Oscar Wilde anyways you savage... so you're a proponent of Beardsley or not?
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Posted By: Paul
Date Posted: 11-Mar-2009 at 20:09
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Peter? Nope never a toon fan ------------- Light blue touch paper and stand well back http://www.maquahuitl.co.uk - http://www.maquahuitl.co.uk http://www.toltecitztli.co.uk - http://www.toltecitztli.co.uk |
Posted By: Temujin
Date Posted: 11-Mar-2009 at 20:18
English proove again that they have no culture other than football: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aubrey_Beardsley  |
Posted By: Dolphin
Date Posted: 11-Mar-2009 at 20:22
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The question of representation rears its head here. If this group has no support, is it terrorist or merely criminal? ------------- |
Posted By: Temujin
Date Posted: 11-Mar-2009 at 20:26
| out of my belly, i would say it was criminal. you could actually argue that terrorism has at least minority representation, criminality has never popular support. |
Posted By: Parnell
Date Posted: 11-Mar-2009 at 20:31
 Well said Panther. ------------- |
Posted By: Dolphin
Date Posted: 11-Mar-2009 at 20:32
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Is terrorism in the eyes of the perpetrator or in the eyes of the victim? No doubt they consider themselves terrorists, but should their 'cause' be unrepresentative, it might be more useful to call them criminals, and not value their action with the term 'terrorist', if that be possible. ------------- |
Posted By: Temujin
Date Posted: 11-Mar-2009 at 20:50
both i would say. of course that doesn't always works out perfectly. the problem is much deeper, i mean the Vietcong also had suicide bombers and perhaps they would be considdered a terrorist organization today? by analyzing the word, what does 'terror' imply? groupings that resort to terror-tactics target civilian groups with it, they also need a certain randomness about it, they want to create the image that it can happen anytime to anyone, this is the very definition of terrorism = people living in constant fear. |
Posted By: Omar al Hashim
Date Posted: 12-Mar-2009 at 05:11
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Locked for 24 hours. I'm sure I don't need to explain why, needless to say we are reviewing this thread in the mods room.
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Posted By: Omar al Hashim
Date Posted: 15-Mar-2009 at 01:10
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Unlocked with a lot of posts hidden.
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