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TURANIANS

Printed From: History Community ~ All Empires
Category: General History
Forum Name: Archaeology & Anthropology
Forum Discription: Topics on archaeology and anthropology
URL: http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=2555
Printed Date: 04-Aug-2020 at 21:33
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Topic: TURANIANS
Posted By: köroglu
Subject: TURANIANS
Date Posted: 18-Mar-2005 at 00:11

How to discern Turanian people:

Die türkischen Steppenvölker Zentralasiens lebten mit Mongolen und Skhyten von der außenwelt abgeschottet jahrhundertelang als Nomaden zusammen. Für die Europäer waren die Hunnen nicht europäisch, für die Chinesen waren sie fremdartige Menschen mit stärkerem Bartwuchs, größerer Erscheinung und hatten längere Nasen. Wie sahen sie eigentlich aus?? In der Fachsprache heißt es Turanid.... Hervorstechende Wangenknochen, mandelförmig geschlitzte (Katzen)augen usw..

 

Turanian race includes races who lived in central asia.
Most Caucasian+Iranoid+Mongoloid (or Indianid).

 But Turanoid is not a "new race". Even the huns were Turanoids. The chineese said they had strong growth of beard. This sounds not mongoloid! They were some blond huns. This sounds not mongoloid, too..


Mongoloid:

Turanoid:

Iranoid-Dinarid (Iranian and Greek)
 

As you can see Turanoid is something like the step between Caucasoid and Mongoloid....









Mongoloid and Turanoid is not the same. Turanoid has caucasoid essencence.

Mongoloid:

Turanoid:

Turanoid Tajik girl:

First picture is an Iranian-Prototype; Second is one of a Turkic-Prototype(Dinarid-Turanid):

Other Turkish profiles from Central-Asia:

 
http://www.geocities.com/refuting_rc/tatpic26 - http://www.geocities.com/refuting_rc/tatpic26
http://www.geocities.com/ie_to_the_core/tatpic29.txt - http://www.geocities.com/ie_to_the_core/tatpic29.txt
http://www.geocities.com/ie_to_the_core/tatpic30.txt - http://www.geocities.com/ie_to_the_core/tatpic30.txt

 

 

KÜL TEGIN___(Kül (Köl, Gül, Göl) Tigin Khan Bengü Ýnançu Apa Tarkan Taþý) (685 - 731 or 732 AD) was a Turkic leader. He was the son of Ilteris Sad and brother of Bilge Khan and co-ruler of the Gokturk Empire from 716.
He was killed in a war against a branch of Oghuz Turks in 731 or 732 AD. His life story and advices on state administration are carved on one of the monuments known as the Orkhon inscriptions. 
 




Turkic/Turanian prototype skull





Replies:
Posted By: Rava
Date Posted: 18-Mar-2005 at 03:38

Turan and Turanians (in the contemporary sense) are two different names.

What you diplayed is a peoples mixture that happened after c.a. 550 when Turks conquered Central Asia. Original Turan belonged to H'yaona also known as Chionites an Indo-European tribe which moved West along with the Abars and were known as Avars in Europe.   



Posted By: eaglecap
Date Posted: 18-Mar-2005 at 14:21

Posts: 32      
Posted: Today at 12:11am | IP Logged      Report Post Quote köroglu

How to discern Turanian people:

Die türkischen Steppenvölker Zentralasiens lebten mit Mongolen und Skhyten von der außenwelt abgeschottet jahrhundertelang als Nomaden zusammen. Für die Europäer waren die Hunnen nicht europäisch, für die Chinesen waren sie fremdartige Menschen mit stärkerem Bartwuchs, größerer Erscheinung und hatten längere Nasen. Wie sahen sie eigentlich aus?? In der Fachsprache heißt es Turanid.... Hervorstechende Wangenknochen, mandelförmig geschlitzte (Katzen)augen usw..

I wish I could speak German my ancestral language!!!

Turanian race includes races who lived in central asia.
Most Caucasian+Iranoid+Mongoloid (or Indianid).

I enjoyed this post and I can see the Caucasiod and Mongoloid features in some of the people pictured here. I have never heard of Iranoid.
They had a really neat exhibit at the local museum in Spokane about modern art from the Turkic regions, former Soviet Union.

We do have art and culture even in backwards Spokane-


Posted By: Dari
Date Posted: 19-Mar-2005 at 00:08
A Tajiki is not a Turanian, maybe a minority of them, but not the majority. Thought I should point that out.

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Dari is a pimp master


Posted By: Gubook Janggoon
Date Posted: 19-Mar-2005 at 00:35
I need to get myself a Turanian girl.

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Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 19-Mar-2005 at 04:32

A typical Turkmen family from central asia...

A Turkmen horseman...

Warior Turkish women from Altay, the homeland of Göktürks...

Some Turkish villagers left in Macedonia from Ottoman time, a Yörük village...

Saha (Yakut) Turks from Eastern Russia...

Turks are everywhere, from USA to Algeria, From Germany to Eastern Russia, from Mongolia to Iraq... All these people are examples of Turanians...



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Posted By: köroglu
Date Posted: 19-Mar-2005 at 10:43

Originally posted by Dari

A Tajiki is not a Turanian, maybe a minority of them, but not the majority. Thought I should point that out.

I know... this girl belongs to the minority!



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Posted By: Kuu-ukko
Date Posted: 20-Mar-2005 at 03:21
Oguzoglu, how come Yakuts are Turks? They Tungusic people, and have never been under Turkic control. The common thing between them is, that they have been classified under the Altaic family, which isn't now thought to be quite accurate or even real.

BTW, now that we are talking about central Asian people, do you know any sites on their languages?

Thank you and goodbye.


Posted By: eaglecap
Date Posted: 20-Mar-2005 at 14:01
Originally posted by Oguzoglu


A typical Turkmen family from central asia...



A Turkmen horseman...



Warior Turkish women from Altay, the homeland of Göktürks...



Some Turkish villagers left in Macedonia from Ottoman time, a Yörük village...



Saha (Yakut) Turks from Eastern Russia...


Turks are everywhere, from USA to Algeria, From Germany to Eastern Russia, from Mongolia to Iraq... All these people are examples of Turanians...



Nice family! They look like people I can have great resepct for. I thought in the last image the girl almost looks Aztec.


Posted By: ihsan
Date Posted: 20-Mar-2005 at 16:33
Turanoid is not a race, it's a sub-race.

KÜL TEGIN___(Kül (Köl, Gül, Göl) Tigin Khan Bengü Ýnançu Apa Tarkan Taþý) (685 - 731 or 732 AD) was a Turkic leader. He was the son of Ilteris Sad and brother of Bilge Khan and co-ruler of the Gokturk Empire from 716.
He was killed in a war against a branch of Oghuz Turks in 731 or 732 AD. His life story and advices on state administration are carved on one of the monuments known as the Orkhon inscriptions.

Köl Tigin was the brother of Bilge Qaghan (not Khan) and he didn't have "Khan" in his title. Neither was he the co-ruler of the Eastern Gök Türk Qaghanate, his brother Mojilian was the sole ruler with the title Bilge Qaghan. Besides, Köl Tigin wasn't killed by the Toquz Oghuz in 731 because the Oghuz Rebellion was over by 716.

Warior Turkish women from Altay, the homeland of Göktürks...

Well in this case they're Warrior Turkic Women because today, the term Turkish is used only for the citizens of the Republic of Turkey.

Oguzoglu, how come Yakuts are Turks? They Tungusic people, and have never been under Turkic control. The common thing between them is, that they have been classified under the Altaic family, which isn't now thought to be quite accurate or even real.

Yaquts are a Turkic people (more correctly, geneticially mixed between Turkic and Tungusic but they're culturally Turkic) and they speak a language/dialect which is cathegorised inside the Siberian group of Turkic language groups.



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[IMG]http://img50.exs.cx/img50/6148/ger3.jpg">

Qaghan of the Vast Steppes

http://steppes.proboards23.com - Steppes History Forum


Posted By: köroglu
Date Posted: 21-Mar-2005 at 20:12

Originally posted by ihsan

Turanoid is not a race, it's a sub-race.

 

And which race do you classify them? 70% Caucasoid 30% Mongoloid ??????????

(Don't post with large font -II)



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Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 22-Mar-2005 at 11:54
Can everyone see all of the photos that I posted?

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Posted By: ihsan
Date Posted: 24-Mar-2005 at 17:46

köroglu, posting with large letters is not allowed in this forum.

Turanoid is a sub-race of the Caucasoid race, taht's all I know.



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[IMG]http://img50.exs.cx/img50/6148/ger3.jpg">

Qaghan of the Vast Steppes

http://steppes.proboards23.com - Steppes History Forum


Posted By: Behrouz
Date Posted: 10-Apr-2005 at 19:38
I'm a bit confused now, isn't Turan located in the east of Iran? Something like Turks of centeral asia? so how's that connected to turks of turkey?


Posted By: Alparslan
Date Posted: 11-Apr-2005 at 01:40

Originally posted by Behrouz

I'm a bit confused now, isn't Turan located in the east of Iran? Something like Turks of centeral asia? so how's that connected to turks of turkey?

It is very simple.

Turkey's Turks has migrated from those lands to Anatolia and during time they have mixed with locals.

The root of the word TURAN which is TUR and the root of the world TURK or TURUK is the same. Both are TUR-.

More examples of Anatolian Turks.

 

 

 



Posted By: Alparslan
Date Posted: 11-Apr-2005 at 01:45

Originally posted by Behrouz

I'm a bit confused now, isn't Turan located in the east of Iran? Something like Turks of centeral asia? so how's that connected to turks of turkey?

It is very simple.

Turkey's Turks have migrated from those lands to Anatolia and during time they have mixed with locals.

The root of the word TURAN which is TUR and the root of the world TURK or TURUK is the same. Both are TUR-.

More examples of Anatolian Turks.

 

 

 



Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 11-Apr-2005 at 03:04

Turan isnt Eastern Iran. It is the common name of all the lands from Turkmenistan to Eastern Turkestan in China. It is an Iranic name, but "Tur" belief is the root of both the names "Turk" and "Turan". Turks immigrated those lands since ancient times and most of todays Turks are Turanoid originated, including Uighur Turks.

 

Uighur kids from China

Uighur man playing a traditional Turkish insturment, Kopuz.

 
Uighur girl from China
 
 
Uighur man from eastern Kashgar
An old Uighur man
 
Uygur Flag (Xinjiang-Eastern Turkestan flag)


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Posted By: Behrouz
Date Posted: 12-Apr-2005 at 11:42
Thanks. I was wondering aobut it since in Shahnameh (the book of kings) as I remember Turan was located in the east of Iran which of course makes sense given the stories are from ancient times.


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 15-Apr-2005 at 10:17
Alparslan

Turk ler Anadolu'da diger milletler ile karismamisdir. bunu da nereden cikardin


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Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 25-Apr-2005 at 11:26

Originally posted by basbug_attila

Alparslan

Turk ler Anadolu'da diger milletler ile karismamisdir. bunu da nereden cikardin

He didnt say that. He said Turks have mixed with the locals of Turan, the ancient region which occupied todaysTajikistan, Kyrgizistan, Uzbekistan etc.

And if you are an Anatolian Turk, go and visit Turkestan countries, and then look at the mirror. You will understand what I mean.

Also, as I read from your signiture, you wrote "Atilla the Hun". But his real name is "Attila the Hun".



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Posted By: Zagros
Date Posted: 27-Apr-2005 at 18:38

This is how I have always invisiged Attila to have looked (maybe slightly wider cheekbones:

http://www.allsportnews.net/images/942.jpg - http://www.allsportnews.net/images/942.jpg

The "Iranoids" displayed may have had some Turanoid influence down the generations as many Iranics have. Mehdi Mahdevikia is a good example of Iranid.



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Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 28-Apr-2005 at 10:59

Yeah, I have heard Mehdi Mahdavikia, his was a right winger AM in a German Bundesliga team. I also know Ale Daei who once played in Hertha Berlin against Galatasaray. These are the only Iranian players I know.

And the football player who has a photo in your link is Alpay Özalan, a famous Turkish defender in the national team.



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Posted By: Zagros
Date Posted: 28-Apr-2005 at 15:00

There is also Ali Karimi, he plays for a UAE team Al Ahli but there has been interest from German league for a while (he is by far the best iranian player in my opinion). Fereydoon Zandi - Kasierslautern, Vahid Hashemian - Bayern.

You can see which teams the players play for here:

http://www.parstimes.com/soccer/legionnaires.html - http://www.parstimes.com/soccer/legionnaires.html

Here you can see Karimi and other in action:

http://www.alwasluae.net/mohd/alwasl_alahli_1_2_00.WMV - http://www.alwasluae.net/mohd/alwasl_alahli_1_2_00.WMV



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Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 29-Apr-2005 at 10:16
Thank you for the useful links

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Posted By: Kenaney
Date Posted: 02-May-2005 at 13:55

Why you people dont say anything about Hungarian people?

Dunno but, they use mostly the name Turan in their daily live or even in theire names. I mean with "using the name Turan in their daily live" they giving the name on some war-tanks etc.



Posted By: Kuu-ukko
Date Posted: 02-May-2005 at 15:35

Ok: The Hungarian language is the largest Uralic language (15,000,000 speakers) spoken in Hungary and neighbouring states. It belongs to the Ugric branch, and its closest language relatives are Khanty and Mansi, spoken in Siberia along the river Ob.

The Hungarians were a hunter-gatherer tribe from ancient times to the 1st millenium BC. Shortly after they were introduced with animal husbandry. Circa 450 they emigrated from the Ural mountains to the northern Caucasus region. There they remained for about 400 years. They were allied for a while with the Khazars. They had intensive contact with Turkic tribes, since Magyar words relating to husbandry, political - and military organization are found to have been borrowed from Turkic languages before the 9th century. Late the same century the advance of the Pechenegs forced them to move into modern Romania, under their leader Arpad. They were defeated by the Bulgarian czar Simeon I, forcing them again to move, this time to modern Hungary.

This is as much as I know, I'm not that keen on written history . A short source for those who would like to see it: http://www.answers.com/topic/magyars - http://www.answers.com/topic/magyars  



Posted By: Kenaney
Date Posted: 04-May-2005 at 13:26
I know we are (Turkish peepz) the only people that calls Hungarian people "Macar" or "Magyar" but all others call them Huns or Hungarian or something relative to that.


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 04-May-2005 at 14:42

Originally posted by Kenaney

I know we are (Turkish peepz) the only people that calls Hungarian people "Macar" or "Magyar" but all others call them Huns or Hungarian or something relative to that.

The word "Hungar" comes from the word Ongar, and it comes from the word "Onogur".



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Posted By: minchickie
Date Posted: 03-Jul-2005 at 05:18

heres an interesting (very detailed) page about Magyars, Huns, etc..

http://www.imninalu.net/Huns.htm - http://www.imninalu.net/Huns.htm



Posted By: minchickie
Date Posted: 06-Jul-2005 at 22:56
[Categories: Turkic peoples]

Turanism, or Pan-Turanism, is a political movement for the union of all Turkic peoples, and as such is equivalent to (Click link for more info and facts about Pan-Turkism) Pan-Turkism. Georgeon and Landau extended Pan-Turanism, however, to be not only unity of all Turks, but also unity of Turks with Hungarians, Mongolians and Finns.


The name is derived from Turan an ancient Persian name for Turkestan (A historical region of central Asia that was a center for trade between the East and the West), the Turkic languages areas of (Click link for more info and facts about Central Asia) Central Asia.

The organisation is one of the earliest fore-runners for modern Pan-Turkism and Turanism

During the latter part of the 19th century and the early 20th century similar societies were founded in many other countries with perceived Turanian roots.

Hungarian Turanian Society, Hungary, founded 1910,
Turanian Alliance of Hungary founded 1920
Turanian National Alliance, Japan 1921
Japanese Turanian Society early 1930s




Posted By: kermit_criminal
Date Posted: 07-Jul-2005 at 01:54

Are kyrgyz turnanians? is this man who is kyrgyz a turanian?

http://freenet.bishkek.su/kyrgyzstan/pict/akaev1.jpg">



Posted By: Jagatai Khan
Date Posted: 07-Jul-2005 at 03:29

Yes.They are partly Turkic.

The establish the union of the Turanian people is also named as "Red Apple Idea"



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Posted By: Kenaney
Date Posted: 07-Jul-2005 at 11:56
Originally posted by minchickie


Hungarian Turanian Society, Hungary, founded 1910,
Turanian Alliance of Hungary founded 1920
Turanian National Alliance, Japan 1921
Japanese Turanian Society early 1930s

Didnt know that Japan also has Turan dream, hmmm interesting. But i know also that Ataturk sayed once to a Japanese "one day we will meet eachothers in China"



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OUT OF LIMIT


Posted By: minchickie
Date Posted: 08-Jul-2005 at 05:12

Turkmen and Hungarians: the Past and the Present
/09.06.2005/

Some time ago, Hungarian Orientalist and explorer Armin Vamberi who visited Turkmenistan in the 19th century and collected many valuable materials about our country made a conclusion that “…The Turkomans (in the mediaeval times the Hungarians were referred to as Turkomans, O.G.) living from here to the Adriatic Sea, or living on the banks of the Danube River, Western Turks in that point can be related to one family with the Central Asiatics not relying on the physiognomic features but the similarity between their language, character and customs.”

This fact is supported in the work “On the Relations of Turkmen and Old Turkic languages with the Magyar language” (Ashgabat, 1985) by a Turkmen philologist Ya. Chungaev. While comparing the Hungarian words with the Turkmen ones the identity of some of them is obvious, for example, Hung. agg (‘aged’) – Turk. aga (‘oldest’), Hung. alma (‘an apple’) – Turk. alma (‘an apple’), Hung. ata (‘father’) – Turk. ata (‘father’, ‘grandfather’), Hung. arpa (‘barley’) – Turk. agra (‘barley’), Hung. balta (‘an axe’) – Turk. palta (‘an axe’), Hung. kes (‘a knife’) – Turk. kesmek (‘to cut’), Hung. kazan (‘a big pot’) – Turk. gazan (‘a pot’), Hung. ki (‘who’) – Turk. kim (‘who’), Hung. pamut (‘cotton’) – Turk. pamyk (‘cotton’), Hung. ter (‘arena’) – Turk. tor (‘an honorary place’), Hung. taray (‘a comb’) – Turk. darak (‘a comb’), Hung. derek (‘a tree trunk’) – Turk. derek (‘a poplar’), Hung. tary (‘millet’) – Turk. dary (‘millet’), Hung. teve (‘a camel’) – Turk. duye (‘a camel’)- Hung. sarga ('yellow').... and others.

So, where does this cognation originated from? The latest linguistic research convinces that the place of origin of the Altaian (Turkic and Mongol languages) and the Ural (including the Finno-Ugric languages) language families is Central Asia and the adjoining northern regions of Iran. Belonging to the Europeoid race by their anthropological type ‘the Altaians’ and ‘the Uralians’ spread far off to the east and north and absorbed the Mongoloid elements. At the beginning of the 20th century an Americanist P. Rive wrote that the region to the east of the Caspian Sea was the centre of settling of the Uralian-Altaian tribes who spread all over Central Asia later. Predicating upon the results of analysis of the archaeological cultures the famous scientist S. P. Tolstov made a conclusion that ‘the Uralians’ had lived in Central Asia and he associated them with the Keltiminar culture of Northern Turkmenistan.

The Hungarians’ ancestors mainly moved away to the Volga and the Ural steppes and forests, where they met with Huns, the Turkmen people’s ancestors. The Ugrians (Hungarians) formed a part of the new Hunnic union of tribes. Very likely, from that moment they started to call themselves Hungars (that is, Hunnic people) or Ogrians (Ugrians), the western historians regarded them as Turks. N. A. Baskakov wrote that the names ‘Ogur’ and ‘Oghuz’ “present two variants of one and the same word differing in the phonetic conformity of the sounds r-z typical for some Turkic languages.” According to him, on-Ogur corresponds to on-oguz (‘ten Oghuzes’, that is ‘the Oghuz tribes’), kutrigur – ‘otuz oguz’ (‘thrity Oghuzes’) and saraguz – ‘sary oguz’ (‘yellow Oghuzes’). It is remarkable that the Turkmen have preserved the dialect differences in the ethnic groups. For example, Ogur can be compared to Uger (Uker), an Oghuz tribe, and to Ogurjali, a subsequent Turkmen tribe, and a clan of Turkmen-Nohurli – Ogry. The medieval Turkic-Bulgarian tribes living in the Aral-Caspian region are also related to Ugrians – Ogorians.

Moving together with the Huns to Central Europe the Hungarians established a small state in Pannonia. The other part of the Hungarians called Magyars wandered to the regions between the Dniestr River and the Dnieper River. When in 898 the Oghuz-Pecheneg tribes were forced out by their congeners from the Volga steppes to the west Magyars were the first to be struck. A Byzantine author Constantine the Scarlet-Born wrote in the 10th century that Turks (i.e. Hungarians) lived near the Khazar Sea, then a part of them moved to Persia and the other part advanced to Central Europe. Hungrains advanced to the Danube Valley where they defeated their congeners (the remnants of the Ugrians, the Huns and the Avars) settled in Pannonia. Shortly after they allied with the Kavar tribes. This fact is of great interest for us, as S. P. Tolstov associated Kavars with Khwarezmians, i.e. the inhabitants of Northern Turkmenistan.

On coming to the throne after the death of king Istvan (St Stephen), King Peter deluged Hungary with Germans and Italians and forced out the Magyar aristocracy. The people of Hungary rebelled and brought Samuil Abu (1041-1044), a descendant of the rulers of Khwarezm Eda and Edumer, the husband of King Stephen’s sister, to power. His love to the people and tolerance was mentioned in all the Hungarian chronicles.

The fact that 16 letters of the mediaeval Hungarian script were similar to some letters of the Gyok-Turkmen alphabet can attest to the Turkmen-Hungarian ties.

In 1114, a new surge of the Turkic tribes came to Central Europe. They were the Oghuz horsemen who had suffered a defeat in the battles with the Kipchak tribes near the Don. Crossing the Carpathian Mountains they came to the lands of Czechia, Slovakia and Hungary. The role they played in the political life of those states is enormous. King Tokson designated two Pecheneg khans as the rulers of the town of Pest, (the future capital of Hungary). An Oghuz soldier, Bayandyr (Berend) who saved King Charles I in 1330 is also mentioned in the Hungarian chronicles.

The Oghuzes in large quantity living in Ugria (Hungary) preserved their independence till the 14th century. In the course of consolidation of the Ugorian state the Oghuz khans were replaced with the king’s representatives. However, for a long time the European Oghuzes preserved their military strength, and the young Oghuzes replenished the king’s army. At the end of the 15th century, a Hungarian historian described them as “using spears, growing long beard and moustaches and wearing hats and dress fly-away silk clothes like Persians.”

In 1228, the Kipchak tribes defeated by the Mongolian hordes came to Hungary. King Bela let the detachment of 40 thousand Kipchak warriors headed by Khan Khotan settle between the Danube River and the Tisa River and in the eastern part of the country. Having known about it Batu Khan wrote King Bela a letter in which he threatened to devastate his lands if he continued protecting the Kipchak tribes (the Cumans) and let them live in his country.

But the Hungarians were not frightened. King Bela’s son married Khan Khotan’s daughter thereby strengthen the Hungarian-Kipchak ties. During the reign of King Ladislav (Laszlo), whose mother was a Polovtsian, the royal court consisted of the noble Kipchaks. The Kipchak customs and clothes were adopted by the Hungarians. An ethnic group of the Kipchak-Palozzi resides in Hungary till present times. The Hungarian scientist L. Kunkovich wrote: “The Polovtsian tribes spoke their Kipchak-Turkic dialect until the 16th century, their governed independently of the Hungarian system up to 1876. Now they consider themselves the pure Hungarians, but are very proud of their Asian origin. Their names were taken to name two lowlands, Malaya and Bolshay Cumania (Kiskunsag and Nagykunsag).”

In the Late Middle Ages the ties between Central Asia and Europe broke off. But the Hungarians still remembered that Central Asia was their ancestral land. In the 19th century Hungarian Orientalist and explorer A. Vamberi started a long journey to study the ancestral land of the Hungarians and then he published his recollections from his travels in Travels in Central Asia introducing the Europeans with the amazing world of the Turkmen.

Ovez GUNDOGDIEV,
Head of Department of Archaeology and Ethnology of the State Institute of Cultural Heritage of the Peoples of Turkmenistan, Central Asia and the Orient under the President of Turkmenistan


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Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 08-Jul-2005 at 06:04
I think his real name is Oguz Gundogdi, it is the ex Soviet spelling.

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Posted By: Feramez
Date Posted: 08-Jul-2005 at 09:13
Good article, .


Posted By: Maju
Date Posted: 14-Jul-2005 at 12:27
I find all this thing on the "Turanian race" (I thought the term race had been dropped in anthropology and also in biology, being only used in cattle and pet selecting activities) quite wishful-thinking.

Looking at all those (pretty different) "Turanian" types, some remind me to Roma (Gypsies), others to East Asian types, many are typical Mediterranean and the Turk selection of blonde girls could be perfectly from anywhere in Europe. Most show obvious mixture of traits, what is the most common thing wherever you go and, as someone pointed out some look even simmilar to Native Americans (what is not surprising, considered that these originated most probably in Central Asia or Siberia).

I also find astonishing some suggestions that Turkish migrations could have changed significatively the "racial" (genetical, I assume) shape of Anatolia or other regions. This was probably more likely in the less densely populated steppes but not in the agricultural strongholds of SW Asia, where invaders could never ammount but to a tiny minority in an ocean of native farmers, that were assimilated in tongue and culture but never genetically.

As "Caucasians", "Mongoloid" aren't homogeneous either and in fact NE Asians ("true Mongoloids") and SE Asians have pretty much different genetic pools and are considered, from a genetic perspective as two totally different branches.

A very interesting link is: http://racialreality.shorturl.com/ - http://racialreality.shorturl.com/ .


Posted By: köroglu
Date Posted: 17-Jul-2005 at 13:48

Ataturk and a Native American:

 



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Posted By: minchickie
Date Posted: 17-Jul-2005 at 14:07
I dont see any resemblance. American indians have been isolated amoungst themselves for a few thousand years. Besides one characteristic of american indians that most people dont know about is that they have a curvature of the upper set of teeth,.  i havent looked for a picture (i dont know if i would find it anyway) but here in new jersey i know a few  American indians  NOT related to each other and they too have this trait. I saw the same thing out west too! Its interesting. They also are prone to very bad skin for some reason with age. They ALSO cannot handle alcolhol and i believe Attaturk had no preoblem drinking!

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Posted By: Zagros
Date Posted: 17-Jul-2005 at 17:02

AtaTurk:

He was half Jewish I believe.



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Posted By: minchickie
Date Posted: 17-Jul-2005 at 17:07

sure he was! so was Hitler!  hahahaha

I really dont believe that!



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Posted By: erci
Date Posted: 17-Jul-2005 at 17:23
don't forget Eric Cartman.he's jewish too 


Posted By: Zagros
Date Posted: 17-Jul-2005 at 18:01

I am not joking... Here is what I read, it's moot as far as I am concerned.

Source: FORWARD, A Jewish Newspaper published in New York
January 28, 1994

WHEN KEMAL ATATURK RECITED SHEMA YISRAEL

"It's My Secret Prayer, Too," He Confessed

By Hillel Halkin

ZICHRON YAAKOV - There were two questions I wanted to ask, I said over the phone to Batya Keinan, spokeswoman for Israeli president Ezer Weizman, who was about to leave the next day, Monday, Jan. 24, on the first visit ever made to Turkey by a Jewish chief of state. One was whether Mr. Weizman would be taking part in an official ceremony commemorating Kemal Ataturk.

Ms. Kenan checked the president's itinerary, according to which he and his wife would lay a wreath on Ataturk's grave the morning of their arrival, and asked what my second question was.

"Does President Weizman know that Ataturk had Jewish ancestors and was taught Hebrew prayers as a boy?"

"Of course, of course," she answered as unsurprisedly as if I had inquired whether the president was aware that Ataturk was Turkey's national hero.

Excited and Distressed

I thanked her and hung up. A few minutes later it occurred to me to call back and ask whether President Weizman intended to make any reference while in Turkey to Ataturk's Jewish antecedents. "I'm so glad you called again," said Ms. Kenan, who now sounded excited and a bit distressed. "Exactly where did you get your information from?"

Why was she asking, I countered, if the president's office had it too?

* Because it did not, she confessed. She had only assumed that it must because I had sounded so matter-of-fact myself. "After you hung up," she said, "I mentioned what you told me and nobody here knows anything about it. Could you please fax us what you know?"

I faxed her a short version of it. Here is a longer one.

Stories about the Jewishness of Ataturk, whose statue stands in the main square of every town and city in Turkey, already circulated in his lifetime but were denied by him and his family and never taken seriously by biographers. Of six biographies of him that I consulted this week, none even mentions such a speculation. The only scholarly reference to it in print that I could find was in the entry on Ataturk in the Israeli Entsiklopedya ha-Ivrit, which begins:

"Mustafa Kemal Ataturk - (1881-1938 ), Turkish general and statesman and founder of the modern Turkish state.

"Mustafa Kemal was born to the family of a minor customs clerk in Salonika and lost his father when he was young. There is no proof of the belief, widespread among both Jews and Muslims in Turkey, that his family came from the Doenme. As a boy he rebelled against his mother's desire to give him a traditional religious education, and at the age of 12 he was sent at his demand to study in a military academy."

Secular Father

The Doenme were an underground sect of Sabbetaians, Turkish Jews who took Muslim names and outwardly behaved like Muslims but secretly believed in Sabbetai Zevi, the 17th-century false messiah, and conducted carefully guarded prayers and rituals in his name. The encyclopedia's version of Ataturk's education, however, is somewhat at variance with his own. Here is his account of it as quoted by his biographers:

"My father was a man of liberal views, rather hostile to religion, and a partisan of Western ideas. He would have preferred to see me go to a lay school, which did not found its teaching on the Koran but on modern science.

"In this battle of consciences, my father managed to gain the victory after a small maneuver; he pretended to give in to my mother's wishes, and arranged that I should enter the [Islamic] school of Fatma Molla Kadin with the traditional ceremony. ...

"Six months later, more or less, my father quietly withdrew me from the school and took me to that of old Shemsi Effendi who directed a free preparatory school according to European methods. My mother made no objection, since her desires had been complied with and her conventions respected. It was the ceremony above all which had satisfied her."

Who was Mustafa Kemal's father, who behaved here in typical Doenme fashion, outwardly observing Muslim ceremonies while inwardly scoffing at them? Ataturk's mother Zubeyde came from the mountains west of Salonika, close to the current Albanian frontier; of the origins of his father, Ali Riza, little is known. Different writers have given them as Albanian, Anatolian and Salonikan, and Lord Kinross' compendious 1964 "Ataturk" calls Ali Riza a "shadowy personality" and adds cryptically regarding Ataturk's reluctance to disclose more about his family background: "To the child of so mixed an environment it would seldom occur, wherever his racial loyalties lay, to inquire too exactly into his personal origins beyond that of his parentage."

Learning Hebrew

Did Kinross suspect more than he was admitting? I would never have asked had I not recently come across a remarkable chapter while browsing in the out-of-print Hebrew autobiography of Itamar Ben-Avi, son of Eliezer Ben-Yehuda, the leading promoter of the revival of spoken Hebrew in late 19th-century Palestine. Ben-Avi, the first child to be raised in Hebrew since ancient times and later a Hebrew journalist and newspaper publisher, writes in this book of walking into the Kamenitz Hotel in Jerusalem one autumn night in 1911 and being asked by its proprietor:
" 'Do you see that Turkish officer sitting there in the corner, the one with the bottle of arrack?' "
" 'Yes.' "
" 'He's one of the most important officers in the Turkish army.' "
" 'What's his name?' "
" 'Mustafa Kemal.' "
" 'I'd like to meet him,' I said, because the minute I looked at him I was startled by his piercing green eyes."

Ben-Avi describes two meetings with Mustafa Kemal, who had not yet taken the name of Ataturk, 'Father of the Turks.' Both were conducted in French, were largely devoted to Ottoman politics, and were doused with large amounts of arrack. In the first of these, Kemal confided:

"I'm a descendant of Sabbetai Zevi - not indeed a Jew any more, but an ardent admirer of this prophet of yours. My opinion is that every Jew in this country would do well to join his camp."

During their second meeting, held 10 days later in the same hotel, Mustafa Kemal said at one point:

" 'I have at home a Hebrew Bible printed in Venice. It's rather old, and I remember my father bringing me to a Karaite teacher who taught me to read it. I can still remember a few words of it, such as --' "

And Ben-Avi continues:
"He paused for a moment, his eyes searching for something in space. Then he recalled:
" 'Shema Yisra'el, Adonai Elohenu, Adonai Ehad!'
" 'That's our most important prayer, Captain.'
" 'And my secret prayer too, cher monsieur,' he replied, refilling our glasses."

Although Itamar Ben-Avi could not have known it, Ataturk no doubt meant "secret prayer" quite literally. Among the esoteric prayers of the Doenme, first made known to the scholarly world when a book of them reached the National Library in Jerusalem in 1935, is one containing the confession of faith:

"Sabbetai Zevi and none other is the true Messiah. Hear O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one."

It was undoubtedly from this credo, rather than from the Bible, that Ataturk remembered the words of the Shema, which to the best of my knowledge he confessed knowing but once in his adult life: to a young Hebrew journalist whom he engaged in two tipsily animated conversations in Jerusalem nearly a decade before he took control of the Turkish army after its disastrous defeat in World War I, beat back the invading Greeks and founded a secular Turkish republic in which Islam was banished - once and for all, so he thought - to the mosques.

Ataturk would have had good reasons for concealing his Doenme origins. Not only were the Doenmes (who married only among themselves and numbered close to 15,000, largely concentrated in Salonika, on the eve of World War I) looked down on as heretics by both Muslims and Jews, they had a reputation for sexual profligacy that could hardly have been flattering to their offspring. This license, which was theologically justified by the claim that it reflected the faithful's freedom from the biblical commandments under the new dispensation of Sabbetai Zevi, is described by Ezer Weizman's predecessor, Israel's second president, Yitzchak Ben-Zvi, in his book on lost Jewish communities, "The Exiled and the Redeemed":

'Saintly Offspring'

"Once a year [during the Doenmes' annual 'Sheep holiday'] the candles are put out in the course of a dinner which is attended by orgies and the ceremony of the exchange of wives. ... The rite is practiced on the night of Sabbetai Zevi's traditional birthday. ... It is believed that children born of such unions are regarded as saintly."

Although Ben-Zvi, writing in the 1950s, thought that "There is reason to believe that this ceremony has not been entirely abandoned and continues to this day," little is known about whether any of the Doenmes' traditional practices or social structures still survive in modern Turkey. The community abandoned Salonika along with the city's other Turkish residents during the Greco-Turkish war of 1920-21, and its descendants, many of whom are said to be wealthy businessmen and merchants in Istanbul, are generally thought to have assimilated totally into Turkish life.

After sending my fax to Batya Keinan, I phoned to check that she had received it. She had indeed, she said, and would see to it that the president was given it to read on his flight to Ankara. It is doubtful, however, whether Mr. Weizman will allude to it during his visit: The Turkish government, which for years has been fending off Muslim fundamentalist assaults on its legitimacy and on the secular reforms of Ataturk, has little reason to welcome the news that the father of the 'Father of the Turks' was a crypto-Jew who passed on his anti-Muslim sentiments to his son. Mustafa Kemal's secret is no doubt one that it would prefer to continue to be kept.

Source: The Literary Digest (a journal published in USA)
October 14, 1922, page: 50

A Spanish Jew by ancestry, an orthodox Moslem by birth and breeding, trained in a German war college, a patriot, a student of the campaigns of the world's great generals, including Napoleon, Grant and Lee - these are said to be a few outstanding characteristics in the personality of the new "Man on Horseback" who has appeared in the Near East. He is a real dictator, the correspondents testify, a man of the type which is at once the hope and fear of nations torn to pieces by unsuccessful wars. Unity and power have come back to Turkey largely through the will of Mustafa Kemal Pasha.
............
There was the pasha himself, tall, still young, good-looking, narrow-hipped, wide-shouldered, with gray, rather sad eyes that spoke eloquently of his Spanish-Jewish ancestry - for Kemal, like Enver Pasha, tho an orthodox Moslem, is descended from those Spanish-Jewish families that, given by Christianity the tolerant choice between death, conversion and exile, found asylum and happiness in the Sultan's domains - and with strong, high-veined hands, broad and flat across the wrist - the hands of an artist, a dreamer, yet, too, those of a doer, a man who knows how to clout his dreams into facts.



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Posted By: minchickie
Date Posted: 17-Jul-2005 at 18:02


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Posted By: erci
Date Posted: 17-Jul-2005 at 18:05
A Jewish Newspaper published in New York


now you believe in jewish newspapers zagros purya? 

interesting


Posted By: Zagros
Date Posted: 17-Jul-2005 at 18:16

I said the subject is moot. What is wrong with Jewish newspapers, anyways? Besides, the second source is not Jewish.

I will say whatever that happens to your boat, in this case:  Ataturk was of the purest Turkish stock!

I think I like these:



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Posted By: erci
Date Posted: 17-Jul-2005 at 18:31
nothing wrong with jewish newspapers.unless they publish about iranians, arabs, or greeks right?

gotcha




Posted By: Zagros
Date Posted: 17-Jul-2005 at 18:39

gotcha

you certainly did.



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Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 18-Jul-2005 at 04:13
It doesnt matter if someone is from ethnical Turkish/Iranian/Greek/Albanian stock. It is about identity and how you define yourself. Whatever his origins were, Ataturk was a Turk, a Muslim and he prefered to kick all supporters of such organizations from Turkey.

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Posted By: köroglu
Date Posted: 21-Jul-2005 at 23:09

Atatürk? Jewish?? You are clowns.. muuaaaahaha

 

A Turk seem to me more like a Native American than an Oriental... I see the Wolf in his eyes...



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Posted By: köroglu
Date Posted: 21-Jul-2005 at 23:14

A TYPICAL LOOK OF THE FIRST TURKS IN ANATOLIA:

 

Everyone who travel to Turkey will see today this type of Turkic/Turanid subrace... More than you would like to imagine..



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Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 22-Jul-2005 at 10:42

We all know that Ataturk wasnt a Native American...

So please, dont become funny.

It doesnt matter if Ataturk had a Jewish origin or not, he was a Turk.



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Posted By: Zagros
Date Posted: 22-Jul-2005 at 11:30

Oguz is right, but I find it laughable how unopen to discussion of the topic most of you are.



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Posted By: köroglu
Date Posted: 22-Jul-2005 at 15:11
Originally posted by Oguzoglu

We all know that Ataturk wasnt a Native American...

Heee?????????? I never say that!!!



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Posted By: Mortaza
Date Posted: 22-Jul-2005 at 15:17
Originally posted by köroglu

A TYPICAL LOOK OF THE FIRST TURKS IN ANATOLIA:

 

Everyone who travel to Turkey will see today this type of Turkic/Turanid subrace... More than you would like to imagine..

I hope I wont see this type of Turk more.

Unlucy helens did meet with this guy. I think I have some sypmaty for helens.



Posted By: köroglu
Date Posted: 22-Jul-2005 at 15:42

A HUNISH WARRIOR



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Posted By: Mortaza
Date Posted: 22-Jul-2005 at 15:58
are you trying to scare Zagros Purya?


Posted By: Zagros
Date Posted: 22-Jul-2005 at 20:38

aww that is soooooo cuute like a lil kitty.



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Posted By: köroglu
Date Posted: 22-Jul-2005 at 21:30

Originally posted by Mortaza

are you trying to scare Zagros Purya?

Who is that?



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Posted By: köroglu
Date Posted: 22-Jul-2005 at 22:13

And a Turk without Turanid influence:

 



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Posted By: minchickie
Date Posted: 23-Jul-2005 at 02:12
 HELLOOOOO!!!

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Posted By: Ironheart
Date Posted: 31-Jul-2005 at 17:34
Originally posted by köroglu

And a Turk without Turanid influence:

 

Who is this?  Manken Zeki? 

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Pax Ottomanica


Posted By: Seljuk
Date Posted: 31-Jul-2005 at 18:36
Originally posted by Ironheart

Originally posted by köroglu

And a Turk without Turanid influence:

 

Who is this?  Manken Zeki? 

isnt he Volkan the reserve goalkeeper of Fenerbahçe?



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Posted By: Tangriberdi
Date Posted: 03-Aug-2005 at 08:15
Originally posted by Zagros Purya

AtaTurk:

He was half Jewish I believe.

Do not insult our nation and its leader.  If you that will not be the same as calling Azeri Turks in Iran Torke Hari, The donkey Turk



Posted By: erci
Date Posted: 03-Aug-2005 at 14:22
he didn't insult Ataturk.it is ok not to know about him well, if you're Not-Turkish


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 03-Aug-2005 at 18:14

 

Reading all you brother's posts makes me proud of my Turanian/Turkish heritage. Thank you.

 



Posted By: köroglu
Date Posted: 04-Aug-2005 at 20:41
Originally posted by Kalender

 

Reading all you brother's posts makes me proud of my Turanian/Turkish heritage. Thank you.

 

Senin gibiler sagola gardash!



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Posted By: The Guardian
Date Posted: 04-Aug-2005 at 20:43
Originally posted by Tangriberdi

Originally posted by Zagros Purya

AtaTurk:

He was half Jewish I believe.

Do not insult our nation and its leader.  If you that will not be the same as calling Azeri Turks in Iran Torke Hari, The donkey Turk

It is not an insult to call someone jewish



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It's just a job. Grass grows, birds fly, waves pound the sand. I beat people up.
                             &nb


Posted By: Tangriberdi
Date Posted: 05-Aug-2005 at 10:34
Originally posted by The Guardian

Originally posted by Tangriberdi

Originally posted by Zagros Purya

AtaTurk:

He was half Jewish I believe.

Do not insult our nation and its leader.  If you that will not be the same as calling Azeri Turks in Iran Torke Hari, The donkey Turk

It is not an insult to call someone jewish

What's wrong with being a Jew/Jewish ? Of cpourse nothing ! But insult here is that speaking something incorrect for someone.

He is no way a Jew, He is a Turk.



Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 05-Aug-2005 at 11:34

Being Jew doesnt mean he wasnt a Turk. "Jew" refers to a religion, not specific ethnicity, even if it originally does.

From his father's side, he had Jewish origins. So what? Gagavuz Turks are still Christian, also some Kazakhs. Karaim Turks are also Jewish. Dont you remember the Khazar Turks? Your religion doesnt identify your ethnicity.

But to enlighten the uninformed minds: Ataturk wasnt a Jew, his family was totally Muslims. And Ataturk wasnt a religious person. His origins may possibly have Jewish influence, but I dont think religion matters at all. We arent mullahs to jýdge people according to their religious pasts. I prefer a smart, wise Jew to rule me rather than a fanatic Shia mullah.



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Posted By: The Guardian
Date Posted: 05-Aug-2005 at 12:00

Originally posted by Tangriberdi

But insult here is that speaking something incorrect for someone.

I say you are 6 feet tall.Is that an insult?



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It's just a job. Grass grows, birds fly, waves pound the sand. I beat people up.
                             &nb


Posted By: niceone928
Date Posted: 10-Aug-2005 at 07:40

As far as I know Ata Turk was half a jew.  Another thing, there is something wrong with Jewish newspapers, that's all I ever get in the USA. 



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Posted By: OSMANLI
Date Posted: 30-Aug-2005 at 10:01

Ataturk having Jewish heretiage. Yes i have heard this as well, although do not know why this is said.

Some even say that he was working on behalf ofthe Jews to break the TUrks Islam. NOT MY WORDS, i read it once in a book. It did not have enough evidence to back there thoughts.

Who was ment to have Jewish blood his mum or dad?



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Posted By: köroglu
Date Posted: 30-Aug-2005 at 11:10

Here is a picture of Ataturks father Ali Riza...

As you can see he looks pretty much like a Turanian, so stop this sh*t



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Posted By: Hak-Khan
Date Posted: 31-Aug-2005 at 00:54


mirkelam(singer)


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Posted By: Hak-Khan
Date Posted: 31-Aug-2005 at 01:02


fenerbahce and volkan=reserv taem's reserv player





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Posted By: Alparslan
Date Posted: 31-Aug-2005 at 13:31

 

People who want to relate Ataturk with Jews ancestors are the ones who oppose his religious reforms and laik Turkey.

They want to show Ataturk as a Jews puppet who has been used to break down Islam in Turkey.

These claims are not true. Ataturk was a Turk and Muslim. He was a Bektashi - Alevi. But after seeing Arabs sided with British against Ottomans and Caliphe became a puppet of allied forces he decided to establish a modern state without a religious influence. But one sign has left. We have Bektashi - Turkish symbole on Turkish passeports.   They wanted to eliminate religious dogmas from social life.

This picture has been taken from an Hungarian web. Look at the Bekhtasi dervishe's symbol that he carries. And look at the second page of your Turkish passeports if you have one and see the symbol under the moon and croissant.   You will see the same symbol on every pages with letters TC; Turkiye Cumhuriyeti..... This is one of the symbols of Turks which is used along with moon and croissant during history.........



Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 31-Aug-2005 at 17:31

Wow, I didnt know he was an Alevi like me. I thought his father, Ali Riza Efendi was a Turk of Thesellanoiki, altough his origins were Turkish, he had Jewish influence. But he was a Muslim. Ataturk was a Muslim, but he wasnt a religious person at all. So I guess he may be an Alevi...

Anyway, I wouldnt care if he was a Jew or even a Buddhist. We have suffered the "loyal" actions of lots of fellow Sunnite Muslims in history, so maybe him not being a Sunnite was better.



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Posted By: erci
Date Posted: 31-Aug-2005 at 18:14
didn't know about the symbol on Turkish Passport.I know 12 pointed star symbolize the 12 imams.

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"When one hears such music, what can one say, but .... Salieri?"


Posted By: Phallanx
Date Posted: 31-Aug-2005 at 19:13
Some sources that support his Jewish ancestry.



Ataturk, The Rebirth of a Nation, Lord Kinross, 1965, p. 437

For Kemal, Islam and civilization were a contradiction in terms. "If only," he once said of the Turks, with a flash of cynical insight, "we could make them Christians!" His was not to be the reformed Islamic state for which the Faithful were waiting: it was to be a strictly lay state, with a centralized Government as strong as the Sultan's, backed by the army and run by his own intellectual bureaucracy.
-----------------------------
Turkey, Emil Lengyel, 1941, pp. 140-141

During the early days of Kemal's career, many of his followers were under the impression that he was a champion of Islam and that they were fighting the Christians. "Ghazi, Destroyer of Christians" was the name they gave him. Had they been aware of his real intentions, they would have called him "Ghazi, Destroyer of Islam."
-------------------------

Grey Wolf, Mustafa Kemal, An Intimate Study of a Dictator, H.C. Armstrong, 1934

p. 241:


"For five hundred years these rules and theories of an Arab sheik," he said, "and the interpretations of generations of lazy, good-for-nothing priests have decided the civil and the criminal law of Turkey."

"They had decided the form of the constitution, the details of the lives of each Turk, his food, his hours of rising and sleeping, the shape of his clothes, the routine of the midwife who produced his children, what he learnt in his schools, his customs, his thoughts, even his most intimate habits."

"Islam, this theology of an immoral Arab, is a dead thing." Possibly it might have suited tribes of nomads in the desert. It was no good for a modern progressive State.

"God's revelation!" There was no God. That was one of the chains by which the priests and bad rulers bound the people down.

"A ruler who needs religion to help him rule is a weakling. No weakling should rule.."

And the priests! How he hated them. The lazy, unproductive priests who ate up the sustenance of the people. He would chase them out of their mosques and monasteries to work like men.

Religion! He would tear religion from Turkey as one might tear the throttling ivy away to save a young tree


p. 243

Further, it was public knowledge that he was irreligious, broke all the rules of decency, and scoffed at sacred things. He had chased the Sheik-ul-Islam, the High Priest of Islam, out of his office and thrown the Koran after him. He had forced the women in Angora to unveil. He had encouraged them to dance body close to body with accursed foreign men and Christians.
------------------------

Turkey, Emil Lengyel, 1941, p. 134

Kemal cared nothing about Allah; he was interested in himself and in Turkey. He hated Allah and made him responsible for Turkey's misfortune. It was Allah's tyrannical rule that paralyzed the hands of the Turk. But he knew that Allah was real to the Turkish peasant, while nationalism meant nothing to him. He decided, therefore, to draft Allah into his service as the publicity director of his national cause. Through Allah's aid his people must cease to be Mohammedans and become Turks. Then, after Allah had served Kemal's purpose, he could discard him.
-------------------------

Ataturk, The Rebirth of a Nation, Lord Kinross, 1965, p. 437

For Kemal, Islam and civilization were a contradiction in terms. "If only," he once said of the Turks, with a flash of cynical insight, "we could make them Christians!" His was not to be the reformed Islamic state for which the Faithful were waiting: it was to be a strictly lay state, with a centralized Government as strong as the Sultan's, backed by the army and run by his own intellectual bureaucracy.
---------------------


Oguz,

Well your comment about his being from Thessaloniki actually supports the connection. If you ever look up the area his house was, you'll find that it was right in the center of the Jewish community of Thessaloniki.



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To the gods we mortals are all ignorant.Those old traditions from our ancestors, the ones we've had as long as time itself, no argument will ever overthrow, in spite of subtleties sharp minds invent.


Posted By: erci
Date Posted: 31-Aug-2005 at 22:43
Originally posted by Phallanx

Some sources that support his Jewish ancestry.



Ataturk, The Rebirth of a Nation, Lord Kinross, 1965, p. 437

For Kemal, Islam and civilization were a contradiction in terms. "If only," he once said of the Turks, with a flash of cynical insight, "we could make them Christians!" His was not to be the reformed Islamic state for which the Faithful were waiting: it was to be a strictly lay state, with a centralized Government as strong as the Sultan's, backed by the army and run by his own intellectual bureaucracy.
-----------------------------
Turkey, Emil Lengyel, 1941, pp. 140-141

During the early days of Kemal's career, many of his followers were under the impression that he was a champion of Islam and that they were fighting the Christians. "Ghazi, Destroyer of Christians" was the name they gave him. Had they been aware of his real intentions, they would have called him "Ghazi, Destroyer of Islam."
-------------------------

Grey Wolf, Mustafa Kemal, An Intimate Study of a Dictator, H.C. Armstrong, 1934

p. 241:


"For five hundred years these rules and theories of an Arab sheik," he said, "and the interpretations of generations of lazy, good-for-nothing priests have decided the civil and the criminal law of Turkey."

"They had decided the form of the constitution, the details of the lives of each Turk, his food, his hours of rising and sleeping, the shape of his clothes, the routine of the midwife who produced his children, what he learnt in his schools, his customs, his thoughts, even his most intimate habits."

"Islam, this theology of an immoral Arab, is a dead thing." Possibly it might have suited tribes of nomads in the desert. It was no good for a modern progressive State.

"God's revelation!" There was no God. That was one of the chains by which the priests and bad rulers bound the people down.

"A ruler who needs religion to help him rule is a weakling. No weakling should rule.."

And the priests! How he hated them. The lazy, unproductive priests who ate up the sustenance of the people. He would chase them out of their mosques and monasteries to work like men.

Religion! He would tear religion from Turkey as one might tear the throttling ivy away to save a young tree


p. 243

Further, it was public knowledge that he was irreligious, broke all the rules of decency, and scoffed at sacred things. He had chased the Sheik-ul-Islam, the High Priest of Islam, out of his office and thrown the Koran after him. He had forced the women in Angora to unveil. He had encouraged them to dance body close to body with accursed foreign men and Christians.
------------------------

Turkey, Emil Lengyel, 1941, p. 134

Kemal cared nothing about Allah; he was interested in himself and in Turkey. He hated Allah and made him responsible for Turkey's misfortune. It was Allah's tyrannical rule that paralyzed the hands of the Turk. But he knew that Allah was real to the Turkish peasant, while nationalism meant nothing to him. He decided, therefore, to draft Allah into his service as the publicity director of his national cause. Through Allah's aid his people must cease to be Mohammedans and become Turks. Then, after Allah had served Kemal's purpose, he could discard him.
-------------------------

Ataturk, The Rebirth of a Nation, Lord Kinross, 1965, p. 437

For Kemal, Islam and civilization were a contradiction in terms. "If only," he once said of the Turks, with a flash of cynical insight, "we could make them Christians!" His was not to be the reformed Islamic state for which the Faithful were waiting: it was to be a strictly lay state, with a centralized Government as strong as the Sultan's, backed by the army and run by his own intellectual bureaucracy.
---------------------


Oguz,

Well your comment about his being from Thessaloniki actually supports the connection. If you ever look up the area his house was, you'll find that it was right in the center of the Jewish community of Thessaloniki.



too many inaccurate infos in your posts.first of all Gazi doesn't mean "Destroyer of Christians". Gazi is a title of a soldier who has been wounded in a war like my father he has the same title because he got wounded in 74 in Cyprus.

Ataturk believed in god no doubt but he wasn't a religous person, period.

I would like to point you out in two different views.First Arabs, they didn't like him because he ended the Caliphate, change the alphabet etc.now, the website you copy/paste those quotes strongly supports these ideas.
http://www.ummah.org.uk/sultan/donmeh.html

Second the jews, they were and still in search of famous, accomplished people to see any jewish connection throughout their history.once they found a tiny little connection they will use it until someone claims the otherwise.that's why claiming Ataturk a jew isn't popular, even in jewish community.I don't know about the Thessaloniki and neighborhood where the house but living in a jewish community isn't something strange if you are a bussinesman at that times.even today it is common.I don't know who  Emil Lengyel is,  he sounds like a Hungarian jew so it doesn't surprise me if he claims Ataturk hated arabs and islam and the website supports his ideas because it's an islamic website.

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"When one hears such music, what can one say, but .... Salieri?"


Posted By: Arpad
Date Posted: 01-Sep-2005 at 04:07
I am new here, i am azeri turk, I live in iran, and get alot of racism towards me and my friends from iranians. I think it is time for all iranians and the iranian country to realize that it is also part of the great turan spaning from eastern europe going through asia because 1/3 of its population is turkish and most iranians have turk blood in them. Just like anatolian turks who have a lot of iranic blood in them. Up till now when i see iranians they look turkish to me most of them, And i find it hard to distinguish between turks from turkiye  (i have been to istanbol, ankara) yet they view themselves so superior and make jokes against us.. But anyway i am proud of being turk and i think turkiye is the greatest turkish nation and all turks in the world should learn from turkey and try to become like turkey, then the whole world will know the turks not only in turkey but all over. 


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 01-Sep-2005 at 07:21

Well your comment about his being from Thessaloniki actually supports the connection. If you ever look up the area his house was, you'll find that it was right in the center of the Jewish community of Thessaloniki.

Well, he was nearly an atheist. He had a speech with a German reporter about religions, and he declared all his ideas to them. But he has photos with the cemaat praying together, emphasizing the importance of religion etc.

Anyway, as I said before, no problem with him being Jewish if he was. Jews were way more loyal and benefical for Turks than Orthodox and even Sunnite subjects. Marx was also a Jew from ancestry but an atheist. Khazar Turks were also Turks from ancestry but Jews. Ataturk's father may have some Jewish origins, but he was a Turk and Muslim (not very religious one tough).

And I have a question that you might be familiar with. What hapened to the Jews and Turks of Thesellanoiki? We know that it was the capital of Rumelia with a dominant Muslim population during the Ottoman reign. Where are they now?



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Posted By: Phallanx
Date Posted: 01-Sep-2005 at 08:26
As for the Turks, weren' you the one that mentioned population exchange in a different topic. Bingo
There are hundreds of records that support the movement of the Jews of Thessaloniki towards Constantinopoli in the early stages of it's conquer, where they formed an enormous economic community.
Others of course remained and others moved to Anatolia. You see there was actually a large population comming in from Spain after their expultion sometime in 1460..
Before ww2 records mention some 80-90000 in Thessaloniki alone, but.....we know what happened to them..
If you want to see todays Jews, any simple search will give you loads of info on their population, cultural organizations, publications...etc There is actually a quite active Synagogue here in my city as in many others in Hellas.


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To the gods we mortals are all ignorant.Those old traditions from our ancestors, the ones we've had as long as time itself, no argument will ever overthrow, in spite of subtleties sharp minds invent.


Posted By: OSMANLI
Date Posted: 01-Sep-2005 at 09:09

Constantinopoli? Its hasnt been called that 1453. Just incase you didnt know the city is called ISTANBUL, try to keep up with modern politics.

Erci, respect to your father a true hero.

Gazi i belive was orginally a title similar to Mujahid. The defneder of the faith, although under the Ottomans its meaning came to mean those that have participated and survived in a war for either the faith of nation.



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Posted By: Phallanx
Date Posted: 01-Sep-2005 at 09:24
Hmmm, no we've done this before and the name Constantinoupoli was used well into the 1920's. But anyway, I was refering to that time and not now...

Here is the previous discussion:

http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=4150&KW=turkish+flag -


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 01-Sep-2005 at 10:05

As for the Turks, weren' you the one that mentioned population exchange in a different topic. Bingo

What bingo? We arent having a flame war of beting each other, I just asked the question. Yes, most of the Turks of Thesellanoiki were transfered to Turkey. But I am still not informed about the Jews. It had a large Jewish population for sure.

Hmmm, no we've done this before and the name Constantinoupoli was used well into the 1920's

No it wasnt. It was Konstantiniye. And if we suddenly decide to call it Ahmedabad or Yeni Balasagun, the world would recognize that name. IT's all about choices.

"Gazi" means "veteran" in Turkish, a soldier who is injured or wounded during a war for Islam or his nation. We dont use it similar to the original meaning.

Ghazi, Destroyer of Christians

A shi**y ignorant non sense claim again. Gazi means wounded soldier. Ataturk won this title after he was injured when fighting the enemy.

My greatpa was also a Gazi, when fighting in Yemen-Aden against British, the reason there wasnt against Christianity at all.

we could make them Christians!"

lol What a damn funny article! So he loved Chritians, naturally Greeks. So finally, you contradict yourself by blaming him with Christian hating.

If Ataturk hated Arabs, (definately he didnt), he had fine reasons to hate for sure. But he didnt, he was a man of logic, not a man of personal or religious missions. He only cared about his nations' future, and he succeeded. God bless his soul.



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Posted By: Ardashir
Date Posted: 01-Sep-2005 at 10:40

Originally posted by Arpad

I am new here, i am azeri turk, I live in iran, and get alot of racism towards me and my friends from iranians. I think it is time for all iranians and the iranian country to realize that it is also part of the great turan spaning from eastern europe going through asia because 1/3 of its population is turkish and most iranians have turk blood in them. Just like anatolian turks who have a lot of iranic blood in them. Up till now when i see iranians they look turkish to me most of them, And i find it hard to distinguish between turks from turkiye  (i have been to istanbol, ankara) yet they view themselves so superior and make jokes against us.. But anyway i am proud of being turk and i think turkiye is the greatest turkish nation and all turks in the world should learn from turkey and try to become like turkey, then the whole world will know the turks not only in turkey but all over. 

In Iran,nobody hate Azeris.But may be in Australia the White ultra-Nationalists hate and even beat you! Anayway,as I said,in Iran nobody hate you!



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http://khakokhoon.blogfa.com


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 01-Sep-2005 at 11:02
Do I have to remind you, Tork-e Khar?

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Posted By: Phallanx
Date Posted: 01-Sep-2005 at 11:03
Oguz

There is no flame war, don't understand where you see it, I just pointed out that you know where the Turkish population went.

Why do you insist on an already discussed topic that has proven your beliefs on the name issue to be wrong. Since you obviously didn't look at the link I posted and since you obviously forgot about that discussion. Let me re-post.


1921 envelope



Here are some documents with the name Constantinopoli but couldn't find anything older than the 1920's:

1911, "De Paris à Constantinople, les Guides Bleus" Hachette
http://www.trainsofturkey.com/maps/Constantinople_1911_L.jpg - http://www.trainsofturkey.com/maps/Constantinople_1911_L.jpg

"Plan du réseau, Société des Tramways de Constantinople"
http://www.trainsofturkey.com/maps/istanbul_tram11.jpg - http://www.trainsofturkey.com/maps/istanbul_tram11.jpg

Constantinople postcards 1910
http://www.rubylane.com/shops/curioshop/item/col8166

Censored Postcard Constantinople to Vienna.1917:
http://www.rubylane.com/shops/curioshop/item/col6149


1917: Old Turkey: Attractive Postcard of two Muslims
http://www.rubylane.com/shops/curioshop/item/col7120


All the above prove that the name was used, Let's not continue the discussion with already proven facts.

A shi**y ignorant non sense claim again. Gazi means wounded soldier. Ataturk won this title after he was injured when fighting the enemy.

I'm not claiming anything. Of course you know your language but I'm providing links that have a different opinion than yours. What's wrong with that??? Someone is wrong but that isn't me, I'm just copy/pasting what others have to say.
I gave the University of Calgary above.
Here are more:

"Gazi

Warrior of the http://www.allaboutturkey.com/islam.htm - Islamic faith , often awarded as a title in recognition for valor in battle. Many gazis were mercenaries, fighting for booty or a chance to establish a chieftaincy on conquered territory. Sometimes spelled ghazi in English. Many http://www.allaboutturkey.com/ottoman.htm#sultan - Ottoman sultans called themselves as Gazi."
http://www.allaboutturkey.com/sozlukislam1.htm - http://www.allaboutturkey.com/sozlukislam1.htm

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Ghazi Warrior

In its active participle form of ghāzī ("one who takes part in a ghāziya"), the word is technical term for a Muslim frontier/ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marches" title="Marches - march warrior whose constant attacks against a neighboring infidel power http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Futuh" title="Futuh - open the way for the expansion of Islam . Thus as an institution the ghāziya fits entirely within the conceptual framework of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jihad" title="Jihad - jihad :

For the ghāzīs in the marches, it was a religious duty to ravage the countries of the infidels who resisted Islam, and to force them into subjection.
Cambridge History of Islam, p. 283
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghazw - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghazw
-----------------------------------

Ghazi

Among Mohammedans, a warrior champion or veteran, esp. in the destruction of infidels.

http://www.brainydictionary.com/words/gh/ghazi168951.html - http://www.brainydictionary.com/words/gh/ghazi168951.html
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Ghazi: Warrior or conqueror, used both as a title and as a means of attracting Turkomans to fight for the faith and for the expanding principality.

http://web.mit.edu/4.614/www/handout16.html - http://web.mit.edu/4.614/www/handout16.html
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the ghazi tradition, warriors who fight for the faith against the infidel. the term ghazi is given to all those who kill and infidel, and is a last name that can be found among some muslims.

http://www.andrewiandodge.com/archives/000278.html - http://www.andrewiandodge.com/archives/000278.html
----------------------------

The term ghazi came to mean "warrior for the faith,"

http://www.army.mil/professionalwriting/volumes/volume3/march_2005/3_05_1.html - http://www.army.mil/professionalwriting/volumes/volume3/marc h_2005/3_05_1.html
-----------------------

For Muslims of his day he was Ghazi meaning a Mohammadan warrior, a slayer of infidels.

http://www.romani.org/rishi/retygajo.html - http://www.romani.org/rishi/retygajo.html
----------------------------

There are literally hundreds of sites that connect Gazi/Ghazi to warrior of faith, I hope you get the point, since even 'all about Turkey' is one of my sources.
lol What a damn funny article! So he loved Chritians, naturally Greeks. So finally, you contradict yourself by blaming him with Christian hating.

I'm sure you can't reject Lord Kinross as a source. You need to read the quote all over again, cause you're jumping to conclusions that aren't presented in the quote.
There is no reference to 'love' or any other kind of sympathy towards Christianity. The quote supports what you said earlier, it is talking  about him considering Islam a backward religion that was holding Turkey back and was an obstacle in 'civilizing' the country.




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To the gods we mortals are all ignorant.Those old traditions from our ancestors, the ones we've had as long as time itself, no argument will ever overthrow, in spite of subtleties sharp minds invent.


Posted By: Zagros
Date Posted: 01-Sep-2005 at 11:03

Your IP.

You are a lying provocateaur.



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Posted By: Zagros
Date Posted: 01-Sep-2005 at 11:09

Originally posted by Oguzoglu

Do I have to remind you, Tork-e Khar?

Quite funny how these jokes are actually told also by Torks themselves.

 



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Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 01-Sep-2005 at 11:14

1- Who is a lying provocator? Arpad?

2- If he was lying, how did Ardashir know that?

3- The topic was about Turanians (which is a wrong word in my opinion), and it became a topic about Ataturk and provocative lyers. It isnt just absurd, but funny though...



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Posted By: Zagros
Date Posted: 01-Sep-2005 at 11:19

I accused him of lying and being a provocatuear, he deleted his post above mine, the one where he asked "how did you know I am from Aust.?" to Ardashir.

Ardashir must have read it from the topic I locked in the Iranian forum, the one that was intended to cause disruption.

Ataturk was brought into the equation as a pure Turanian then I mentioned I read somewhere that he has maybe Jewish origins from Spain.



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Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 01-Sep-2005 at 11:22

Claiming ethnic purity isnt just absurd but racist and nonsense. Ataturk was a Turk. End of discussion.



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Posted By: Zagros
Date Posted: 01-Sep-2005 at 11:22
I know.

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Posted By: Arpad
Date Posted: 01-Sep-2005 at 11:42
hey dont call me a lyer, i deleted the message because i already sent you a pm thats why.


Posted By: Zagros
Date Posted: 01-Sep-2005 at 11:46

i am azeri turk, I live in iran, and get alot of racism towards me and my friends from iranians

I call it how I see it, next time don't fabricate personal experiences, or at least take all factors into consideration before you do.



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Posted By: Iranban
Date Posted: 01-Sep-2005 at 11:53

I have a question. Isn't it said that Azaris are turkicized Persians meaning their language is a Turkic language? As for me an azari is someone from northern Iran therefore an  Azari look like someone from northern Iran

And the sentence

and get alot of racism towards me and my friends from iranians.

well all i can say is=

 



Posted By: Iranban
Date Posted: 01-Sep-2005 at 12:09

I found this:

Turk khodeti
Azaris are not Turks. They are Iranians who speak Turkish

mailto:maliama@tiscali.fr - Keyvan Valizadeh
June 7, 2005
iranian.com unedited

I am sorry but my english is very weak. My name is Keyvan Valizadeh and I am an Iranian Azari born in Belgium.

I was taught in my childhood that we were "iranian tork" but when I was 16, I told myself that this was weird to be both iranian and turk. I wanted to be sure of my identity. And I remember that I hated the Persians because I heard from pan-turkist azaris that we were being oppressed by them for hundreds years.

The fact that we spoke a turkish language was enough for me to claim I was in fact a Turk. But with time I discovered that these pan-turkist nationalists didn't reveal us all about our history and many of their claims was totally false. But I feel to be turkish even if I begin hesitating about the origin of my people.

I was suddenly sad not to know my origins. I begin to search books about the history of the Azaris. I read books of Ahmad Kasravi and books of the "Azari nationalists". I understood that the historical facts were hidden by those "nationalists" and I found that many of their claims were lies (like the Azari language didn't exist and that the Azaris are in fact Turks that settled in Iran). Archeological founds said indeed the opposite.

http://www.mage.com/poetrybooks.html"> But I was sure I was a Turk because of the language my family spoke.

My parents were very disappointing when I said to them that they were not Iranians and in fact traitors that prefered to change their identity. The castle of Babak Khorramdin, this Azari Hero that fought the Arabs was a proof for them that our ancestors were Iranians as both the Azaris and Persians spoke different dialects of the same language and that both were Zoroastrians at that time.

I was really impressed about their knowledge and was rather amused by the fact that I could have found answers of all my questions without reading all of these books. Azaris are in fact aware of their history, something the Turks don't know. But I wasn't still conviced.

I went to this famous Babak Castle that the pan-turkist Azaris praised. I didn't know why these pan-turkists that I admired earlier didn't said what was the real goal of his fight against the Arabs. Years before in Maragheh (where I am from) the pan-turkists gave me leaflets that said the "first Azeri hero that fought the Persians for their independance was Babak Khorramdin".

I was now shocked because I knew it was false. I knew that Babak (whose name I noticed was not turkish) was fighting the Arabs and not the Persians and wanted to restore the glory of Persia and the ancient religion of the Persians. And I distanced myself from them.  Because I hated their ocean of lies and like Hafez said: Do not consider the intestinal conflicts of sects for, not having found the truth, they went to the invention

http://www.gifttoiran.com/detail.asp?refer=isTrue&depid=32&depidp=1&proid=25&child=yes&af=iranian.com&bn=39 - Today I feel great and can argue about our origins with other Azaris. Many of the Azaris I spoke had discovered the Truth too and were glad to say that their ancestors were Cyrus or Dariush and not the Mongols the Turks claim to be their ancestors. Some others didn't want to know. Books about Azaris are indeed very rare and the Iranians don't have written books about us contrary to the Turks.

Today even if I don't hate the Persian anymore (how could I hate my brothers and sisters ?) I am really confused about the fact that they have dropped us in this historical battle. Because I assume they think they have no right to intervene. Something that is totally irresponsable. If others peoples of the Iranian family (be it Lors, Persians, Baluchs, Kurds, Bakhtiaris, Gilakis, etc) don't help us the political agenda of Turkey or the pan-turkists will be achieved.

 

http://www.iranian.com/Opinion/2005/June/Azari/index.html - http://www.iranian.com/Opinion/2005/June/Azari/index.html




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